Quote from BigTime :

Ahh, I'm just a little frustrated I guess. I can see that we both played a part in the incident... Thank you for the apology.

Thank you too.

While I understand the continuance of the CoRe/TDRT incident, I think the situation was handled correctly given the circumstances. Yes, it was a bad deal, but it was handled realisticly.

The attrocious wrecking under the SC was not.

The #16 car spun a leader out on the formation lap, and recieved the specified pentalty.

Upon reviewing the replay under the SC car incident at the hour marker, the #16:
a) Spun under Caution and rejoined the field instead of joining the tail.
b) ran into the car in front of it on the back-straight. Which Should have warranted at least another SG, but nothing.
c) The ran into the car in Front of it AGAIN, this time resulting in the DNF of the #30.

With at least 4 incidents under the SC, one car proved beyond a shadow of doubt they do not have the maturity to handle the responsibilites of racing in the IGTC.

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and what do you think about this? your opinions on this move...

chicane after first corner.

im interested

We're looking into it, Stu.

Quote from srdsprinter :

While I understand the continuance of the CoRe/TDRT incident, I think the situation was handled correctly given the circumstances. Yes, it was a bad deal, but it was handled realisticly.

The attrocious wrecking under the SC was not.

The #16 car spun a leader out on the formation lap, and recieved the specified pentalty.

Upon reviewing the replay under the SC car incident at the hour marker, the #16:
a) Spun under Caution and rejoined the field instead of joining the tail.
b) ran into the car in front of it on the back-straight. Which Should have warranted at least another SG, but nothing.
c) The ran into the car in Front of it AGAIN, this time resulting in the DNF of the #30.

With at least 4 incidents under the SC, one car proved beyond a shadow of doubt they do not have the maturity to handle the responsibilites of racing in the IGTC.

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the car also hit me.. but not as bad... i saw it coming and missed the brute force but was clipped slightly i was up in top 5 at the time

Quote from BreadC :

and what do you think about this? your opinions on this move...

chicane after first corner.

im interested

Will check that in about an hour (lunch).

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

We're looking into it, Stu.

Thanks, it is good to hear that coming from the admins.

Quote from BreadC :

the car also hit me.. but not as bad... i saw it coming and missed the brute force but was clipped slightly i was up in top 5 at the time

I can understand, and usually am very tolerant of racing incidents. However, the standard of driving under SC has now cost us competitors again, which is really sad.

Quote from srdsprinter :

Will check that in about an hour (lunch).


Thanks, it is good to hear that coming from the admins.


I can understand, and usually am very tolerant of racing incidents. However, the standard of driving under SC has now cost us competitors again, which is really sad.

Safety car behavior in general is a hot topic right now besides this discussion. People are just being way too aggressive and in many cases completely ignoring the rules. AKA you're not the only person dealing with a bit of idiocy under the safety car and the admins are aware of it and attempting to figure something out from what I've overheard/discussed.

Quote from rcpilot :

Safety car behavior in general is a hot topic right now besides this discussion. People are just being way too aggressive and in many cases completely ignoring the rules. AKA you're not the only person dealing with a bit of idiocy under the safety car and the admins are aware of it and attempting to figure something out from what I've overheard/discussed.

Thanks for that. Just FYI, the only bit of under SC idiocy my car dealt with was being spun off under SC, which was handled effectively/correctly.

The fact is that a team's race was ended while under the SC, and thus far there has been mininal stink publicly made about it (I feel if it were any other team, we'd be forming a mob. The #30 team is a group of good guys, not the fastest but they love the racing). Just looking at what happened through the #30 team's eyes is enough to turn one off the IGTC for good. That's without the farce that happend to AR.

It's good to know there is a discussion going on, we just weren't aware of it.


Thanks,
Stu

I've just re-watched the entire first 2.5hr of the race, and in the process I re-watched the incident that took out the #30 (for the 4th or 5th time). This time I did a shift-U and placed the camera looking toward the bridge overpass, just behind the cars that got in trouble. I watched the replay at .25x speed and looked to see when the brake lights came on for each car involved.

What I saw was this:

The #29 car, far ahead of the cars involved, was lagging back a bit from the car in front of him. This, in concert with the slower corner ahead, caused the cars behind him to bunch up. The last of the cars in this bunch was the #26. Behind the #26, the #16 had a bit of a gap and was on the gas trying to close it up in preparation for the green flag. The #26 was going very slowly by the time the accordion effect took full effect. The #16 got on the brakes pretty early, but was unable to slow enough and hit the rear of the #26, sending them both spinning, and blocking most of the track.

The #30 got on the brakes as well, but a little too late, and hit the #16. There was a brief spike of lag involved in the contact, which erased the #30's forward momentum and brought it to a dead stop, broadside to the track. At this point, the #13 and #03 cars came into the picture, already on their brakes, and again were unable to slow before making contact. The #13 hit the #30 broadside and once again lag seems to have been involved, as the #30 just took off and flew down the track and onto its side behind the barrier.

The actual cause of the incident was the #29's slowing at the middle of the field, and the resulting accordion slowdown behind him. The secondary cause is the timing of the #16's attempt to catch up to the #26, and the reaction time involved in slowing when he saw the #26 and cars ahead of it had slowed.

I hope you can see where it's difficult to see who to blame, and even more difficult to penalize.

Rest assured that we are working on new SC procedures to try to avoid these incidents.

I can't believe it's really that difficult DWB, I just watched it again as well BTW.

The 16 had been involved in incidents under the SC all day. Within 5 seconds of the start it was clear they shouldn't have been there as 16 took out AR.

On the very lap of the incident, the 16 spun and rejoined without yielding or DT. He then proceeded to hit the 26 TWICE in the rear.

The last incident occured just at the 3rd sector, nowhere near the restart of the race.

These actions are a clear pattern. It wasn't an accident, it wasn't happenstance, it was habitual wreckless driving under the SC. Now we've lost a teamate because of someone who doesn't belong on the track, and you're not going to do anything about it.

Granted other things contributed to the 30's DNF, but it is obvious that the 16 was nowhere near responsible enough to be on the track with others, not even close. To pretend anything otherwise is purely nonsensical and insulting.

I like how you conveniently bolded the insulting parts for me, thanks.

As I stated, I watched the #30 incident itself, not any of the contextual stuff, as that wasn't my purpose in re-watching the replay in the first place (this time).

You seem to be out for blood, rather than out for justice in this particular case, but that's understandable. It was a very tough break for the #30.

We are looking into the behavior of several cars during this race, including the #16. Formal warnings and/or points penalties are possible, but they will be judged by the admins and mashals, not by self-appointed justices.

Thanks.

I'm sorry if you think I've got it out for you or the 16. I respect what you do immensly.
Edit -> BTW, you did say you watched the first 2.5 hours...

But to ignore a clear pattern of wreckless immaturity is just wrong.

I want to move forward, but with this behaivor out there it's hard to. It wasn't a failure of the rules, it was a failure of one individual on many occassions.

I'm very sorry, and I don't want it to be attacking towards yourself or the rest of the IGTC staff. But to make excuses for what happend out there is just beyond me.

You've made it clear that you're pursuing the action necessary to prevent this in the future, and with that, I'll leave it. I just hope you know it wasn't any deficiency on you or the rules that let us down Saturday.

Thanks,
Stu

Quote from Bessa74 :

Yeah, was realy a problem those "moving" tyres in 1st chicane, but i think we all have that same problem, not just 2 or 3 teams

I don't think so.
I think tyres don't move by their own you know... I think it's not a tyres problem but a drivers problem. Some drivers repeatidly hit the tyres, lap after lap, simply ignoring that there are other cars on track, simply ignoring that there are tyres there for some reason.

It was reported to the marshalls on IRC, but no action was taken.

Quote from srdsprinter :

However, the standard of driving under SC has now cost us competitors again, which is really sad.

Quote from rcpilot :

Safety car behavior in general is a hot topic right now besides this discussion. People are just being way too aggressive and in many cases completely ignoring the rules.

And again there were a lot of cars ignoring the rules while under SC, swerving and accelerating / braking.
And again, it was reported to the marshalls on IRC, but no action was taken...


Not to mention the behaviour of some individual drivers who seems to think that they are alone on the track and that they are allowed to do anything including attempts of ramming and blocking while they were several laps down.
And yes, it was reported to the marshalls on IRC, but no action was taken........

I don't want to blame the marshalls there, I know it's not easy to admin such a race and they had troubles with the tracker.
But maybe more marshalls are needed for looking at the whole field and not only to keep the focus on the five leading cars.

And I do believe that idiotic and dangerous behaviour MUST be severely punished otherwise it's going to be worse and worse race after race.

Quote from Lotesdelere :

I don't think so.
I think tyres don't move by their own you know... I think it's not a tyres problem but a drivers problem. Some drivers repeatidly hit the tyres, lap after lap, simply ignoring that there are other cars on track, simply ignoring that there are tyres there for some reason.

It was reported to the marshalls on IRC, but no action was taken.

Well what can you do... The only way you could penalize a car for such an incident is if a tire he pushed on the track caused an accident. I personally saw no problem with that in these GTR's. I hit many an on track tire and it was a almost unnoticeable impact. If we where however running TBO's, I would be much more concerned. It's something to keep in mind for the future, but not many issues in the GTR's... At least for me...

Quote from BigTime :

Well what can you do... The only way you could penalize a car for such an incident is if a tire he pushed on the track caused an accident. I personally saw no problem with it in these GTR's. I hit many an on track tire and it was an unnoticeable impact...

The problem is that the effect they have is unpredictable. 80% of the time they may make no impact on your progress, and the other 20% might send you into the wall or into space.

You're wrong in a theoretical sense re: can't penalize for just touching the tires, but in practice every car in the race would have been penalized multiple times. I seriously doubt there's a car who avoided them for the entire race.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

The problem is that the effect they have is unpredictable. 80% of the time they may make no impact on your progress, and the other 20% might send you into the wall or into space.

You're wrong in a theoretical sense re: can't penalize for just touching the tires, but in practice every car in the race would have been penalized multiple times. I seriously doubt there's a car who avoided them for the entire race.

To be thoroughly controversial on my own aside: I believe the dangers/randomness of the errant tires was good for the simulation, in that:

-real life has changing random conditions, such as debris, dirt, oil and so on. Success at real endurance racing is achieving the balance in going very fast, while leaving just enough cushion for the unexpected. Even if our dynamic track conditions are limited to wandering tire walls, I believe it's healthy to deal with them.

The marshalls were kind of screwed either way with this. Last year, they did a great job creating barricades that kept the tires in, but many drivers didn't adapt to them and got caught out. This year, they left the tires alone, and people still weren't happy.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=783048#post783048

and this? i love to hear explanation from this driver lol

Quote from BreadC :

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=783048#post783048

and this? i love to hear explanation from this driver lol

That was interesting. Probably was situational unawareness or a temporary lapse in judgement. That spot is not one of the more obvious passing zones, but it was pretty clear you were there. Lucky you both got through there without spinning.

Edit - The leader did sort of the same thing to me under braking for T1. Shoved us off the track. No real damage, but our race for 15th was over (10 mins left). Just lost his situational awareness for a second and we were off the track. No grudges held, but it's definately something to work on.

It's really a racing incident in the IGTC, I think. I had a similar situation, but immediately before the chicane. Another driver ran me completely off the track on approach, completely disregarding my presence on the track. I finished up straight up the banking. Just take it on the nose.

he knew i was there allrite he was allrdy straightened up and from the steering lock u can see he sharped turned there... but oh well.. we finished 3rd