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Old 14th February 2007, 17:47   #1  -   
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Exclamation Gamepad - Stabilised

Quote:
:Keyboard - stabilised has two main differences to "keyboard - no help". Firstly, it limits the movement of the wheel depending on the amount of grip the tyres have. This limit is also adjustable. Secondly it adds a small amount of automatic countersteering to help balance the car. While this is a driving aid (and the turn limit can be considered one as well), it is essential for using such a basic input device for a task it obviously would never be used to do in real life. Thankfully the keyboard steering is highly configurable in LFS so you should be able to get it to work to your preference.
The above quote is taken from the LFS manual, and states that a keyboard is a
Quote:
:basic input device
Gamepads should not be in the same category as a full on 900 degree steering wheel, the ~30 degrees of the gamepad is in no way any match for 900 degrees of steering input!


In essence what is needed is a dedicated gamepad configuration option in LFS..
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Old 3rd March 2008, 01:55   #2  -   
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I know this is an old thread, but I didn't want to make a new one. I really think the gamepad stabilized feature should be implemented. I have been using "Xpadder" to use my gamepad as a keyboard, to use keyboard stabilized. It works really well, I can actually drive smoothly without my wheels twitching everywhere. Although using my gamepad as a keyboard takes away the ability to have pressure sensitive triggers. If there was a gamepad stabilized feature that made the steering work like KS, but let us keep our pressure sensitive triggers, I'm sure a lot of gamepadders will be happy .
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Old 3rd March 2008, 02:33   #3  -   
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Most certainly, I feel for you guys. I am in 100% agreement with the above.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 02:55   #4  -   
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If you mean for the analoge input of a gamepad then big big -1 from me.

The reason being it could be used for joysticks and wheels as well which then becomes another driver aid.

If done should ONLY be allowed against digital buttons on the gamepad.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 02:56   #5  -   
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yes, even thought i dont use controlers, i did have to for a bit and i think gamepad stabalized would be a great addition to lfs.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 03:12   #6  -   
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IMO gamepad/joysticks should be put in a different category then a wheel wich can turn usually atleast 180 degrees. Gamepad analog stick turns less then an inch, no way to turn as smoothly as a wheel. Gamepads dont have FFB like wheels, some have rumble support but its not wheel like FFB. From what people tell me and from what I see in videos, the automated countersteer KS does isnt so different from FFB wheels. There is no way that I know of to add FFb to an analog stick, so the best alternative imo would be to make gamepad steering stabilized like KS.

There are some joysticks that have real FFB, but most gamepads don't have that feature. Its not much of a driving aid, but if u ever tried steering with a gamepad, or tried endurace racing/drifting on hot tyres, you would see why this would be a nice feature. When drifting on hot tyres, you need to be able to countersteer smoothly/constantly, almost impossible on gamepad as it springs back to center the instant u let go of the stick. Yes you can try to move the stick real slow and progressively, but that is very hard, and it isnt really precise either, its jumpy.

Without this feature, the front tyres wear incredibly fast because of the constant lock to lock turning.( Talking about driving with XRT, the same would go for all other RWD's I assume, and other cars too probally).
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Old 3rd March 2008, 03:25   #7  -   
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l3aDb0y View Post
IMO gamepad/joysticks should be put in a different category then a wheel wich can turn usually atleast 180 degrees. Gamepad analog stick turns less then an inch, no way to turn as smoothly as a wheel. Gamepads dont have FFB like wheels, some have rumble support but its not wheel like FFB. From what people tell me and from what I see in videos, the automated countersteer KS does isnt so different from FFB wheels. There is no way that I know of to add FFb to an analog stick, so the best alternative imo would be to make gamepad steering stabilized like KS.

There are some joysticks that have real FFB, but most gamepads don't have that feature. Its not much of a driving aid, but if u ever tried steering with a gamepad, or tried endurace racing/drifting on hot tyres, you would see why this would be a nice feature. When drifting on hot tyres, you need to be able to countersteer smoothly/constantly, almost impossible on gamepad as it springs back to center the instant u let go of the stick. Yes you can try to move the stick real slow and progressively, but that is very hard, and it isnt really precise either, its jumpy.

Without this feature, the front tyres wear incredibly fast because of the constant lock to lock turning.( Talking about driving with XRT, the same would go for all other RWD's I assume, and other cars too probally).

Unfortunatly I think a gamepad might report the same as a wheel and full joystick to windows. Just gives axis and buttons and if FF is present. So allowing would allow on all similar controllers.

The auto countersteer IS different to wheel in that the wheel in that the wheel only moves if FF is given move signals. This is what a wheel does IRL

The auto countersteer means you can still steer left and have the auto countersteer kick in and turn right to correct.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 03:45   #8  -   
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all we would need is some kind of "smoothing".
u set a rate how quick the wheels turn and bam, works.
with that u could steer controlled slow and steady and also hold longer turns.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 03:47   #9  -   
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Well woz your theory may sound correct, but i dont see how this would be an advantage seeing as a game pad has no motor connected directly to the joystick thus could not result in the perosn Actually fealing the car like with a wheel or a true FFB Joystick, aswell as having the Force Feed Back yes thats right Force Feed Back <<< what us wheel users fealing the cars position in game and linear changes, what you probably meant was Rumble a tiny little motor inside the game controller with an off balanced wieght designed to make vibrations, thats all it can do and will ever do unless you can hook the joystick of the gamepad directly to a motor to simulate what a person would feel on a wheel and in real life. so +1 from me as i cant see how a wheel user can benifit from stabalisation seeing as we already have it with >Force Feed Back< centering springs and dampers.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 05:22   #10  -   
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickpuppy View Post
Well woz your theory may sound correct, but i dont see how this would be an advantage seeing as a game pad has no motor connected directly to the joystick thus could not result in the perosn Actually fealing the car like with a wheel or a true FFB Joystick, aswell as having the Force Feed Back yes thats right Force Feed Back <<< what us wheel users fealing the cars position in game and linear changes, what you probably meant was Rumble a tiny little motor inside the game controller with an off balanced wieght designed to make vibrations, thats all it can do and will ever do unless you can hook the joystick of the gamepad directly to a motor to simulate what a person would feel on a wheel and in real life. so +1 from me as i cant see how a wheel user can benifit from stabalisation seeing as we already have it with >Force Feed Back< centering springs and dampers.
No. I meant FFB is not an aid it is just the wheel doing what the wheel would do IRL. While stabalised means that the countersteer happens while you still hold the steering in the direction you want to go.

The driver aids have been removed one by one so adding one back in is a backwards step. Stabalised helps with countersteer and so allowing on analoge axis is just bad, it WILL be exploited.

For gamepads you could try and ramp up steer smooth in LFS. This might be what you are looking for.

But anything more on an analoge axis is big big -1 from me.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 05:55   #11  -   
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Thats not true, on KS, if you hold left, it goes left until you let go, then it countersteers just a little, but u do have to hold and then tap right to apply the right amount of countersteering. So its basically like wheel sliding back into your hands, then you apply more counter steer. That doesnt seem like an aid to me.

Ramping up the steersmooth just delays the input, but again, you only have maybe 2 inches to turn the analog stick, compared to turning a wheel wich can turn atleast 180 degrees. If I am drifting, I have to countersteer myself, otherwise I would spin because of the little amount of countersteer KS gives even if you have a bigger angle. Same goes for racing, I still have to steer to the opposite direction to straighten out faster.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 20:51   #12  -   
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Gamepad support like dual ps2 controllers are very good with lfs.
Indeed, lfs cannot know what is connected. It just has several axes. Also forcefeedback is indeed usefull on gamepad, but not as good as on steering wheels.

Steering-wheels are more precise, which is a advantage in slower cars. But with formula cars, the ps2-like controllers give the ability to correct slides and spins very, very, very fast making it very equal to good steering wheels.

That' s why i strongly disagree to add driving aids to ps2-like(dual analogue mini sticks with force feedback) controllers. It would make it unfair for the people who drive with a steering-wheel. To be more precise NO i don' t want to have any help with steering! Ban the TC too on the BF1!

If you happen to have a digital(buttons only) gamepad, destroy it and get a decent dual analogue one, with force feedback :-)

Last edited by Bluebird B B; 3rd March 2008 at 20:56.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 21:09   #13  -   
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If your using analog inputs there should be no modification to inputs applied by LFS IMO. If people insist on using digital inputs I support simply smoothing the input, but in no way have it related to what the car is doing.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 21:56   #14  -   
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajp71 View Post
If your using analog inputs there should be no modification to inputs applied by LFS IMO. If people insist on using digital inputs I support simply smoothing the input, but in no way have it related to what the car is doing.
You summed up what I was trying to say better
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Old 3rd March 2008, 22:44   #15  -   
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Gamepads have rumble, not force feedback. There may be some gamepads that have wheel like FFB, but its rare. If lfs cannot know what is connected, there can atleast be a seperate option for gamepad like there is for mouse and wheel. Gamepads are in no way equal to wheels, u only have about an inch to move the stick, it may be easier to save yourself from a spin, but the cost being front wheels going lock to lock ultra fast and front tyres end up wearing faster then rear tyres. Please link me to a affordable gamepad WITH REAL FFB, not RUMBLE.

ajp71, have you played with a gamepad before? Im not asking for a aid, because from my experience from KS, steering with it does not make me faster then g25 WR holders. If you havent steered with a gamepad analog stick before, you should consider trying it if possible or spectating someone who does. All I ask is for a way to somehow smooth the steering, KS input being a good suggestion. If you havent really played with gamepad, or keyboard, I assume you are wheel users who find it unfair for someone without a wheel to be faster then you. I have been playing with settings for months, steer smooth, compensation, setup steering lock, everything.......still no smooth steering, now I am only suggesting the stabilized function, but if the devs can think of something else to really smooth gamepad steering and make it function as well as a wheel, then I would be happy. But im pretty sure thats not possible, unless there is some sort of stabilization like KS.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 23:16   #16  -   
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l3aDb0y View Post
...........
You are NOT getting what we are saying. We KNOW that a gamepad stick is small and does not allow the subtle control of large JS or a wheel.

Trouble is that Windows only knows what is reported to it. So it knows axis, buttons and if FF or rumble is supported. If a wheel and gamepad both reported the same number of buttons and axis they appear the same to LFS.

So allowing the stabalise effect on a gamepad stick would allow people to use that setting on a wheel or full size joystick. This would be BAD.

LFS is designed for use with a wheel, the main website even says as much. As such the aids allowed are dictated by this.

The KB help used to be much more advanced but 4+ years ago the LFS community went through a HUGE fight (And I mean big big fight) on the RSC forum that resulted in KB steer being as it is today. It used to be too good and so wheel users were not happy.

And for info. Yes I believe, skill level equal, that the wheel driver should be able to beat the gamepad user. The gamepad does not offer the control required and should not be aided to balance this out.

Unless there is a way to make sure it can ONLY EVER be used on small joysticks on gamepads its BIG BIG NO. As stated before, all axis look alike to LFS.

Allowing is just adding another aid that wheel users would use if they felt it gave an advantage.

TBH. I can't see stabalise ever being added to axis.

HTH
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Old 4th March 2008, 00:57   #17  -   
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Yea I knew what you were saying, thats why I said give gamepad its own category. I apologize for forgetting that LFS recognizes axis and wheel users would be able to select this gamepad option of it were implemented.

I know LFS is meant for a wheel, but not everyone can get one so easily. Hopefully the devs figure out a way to do something about gamepad sensitivity problem without affecting wheel users. I exerpimented again with xbcd utility and deadzones for xbox 360 gamepad, got the best results I have ever gotten so far, but it still has a few problems, delayed steering being one of them due to steer smooth. New deadzone and ranges I am trying are working good for steering, but hard to drift smoothly and sticking to a line. Also car has trouble staying straight even with the deadzone due to steer smooth, any less steer smooth and the steering would go back to being super fast.
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Old 4th March 2008, 07:33   #18  -   
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I don't think gamepads evens need the stabilised nature of KS. It would certainly benefit from the other feature though (limited steering), which I can't really see helping wheel users either, although it would benefit joystick users too.
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Old 4th March 2008, 11:41   #19  -   
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I've used an xbox controller for the first two years I played LFS and since have used a momo for about 1.5 years and now use a G25.

I could use an xbox contoller almost as well as a wheel If you search for xbox controller settings, I have posted settings before under the username B2B@300. Personally I think dead spots and none linear inputs are a mistake, if you have no dead spots and have the stearing linear with only a small amount of steer smoothing and practise alot you will get the precision you are looking. The other thing I did different for an xbox controller is set the max steering lock to 16deg in the car setup screen.
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Old 4th March 2008, 11:48   #20  -   
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...judging from the general lack of interest from the devs on the whole gamepads in LFS over the past couple of years i've come to the conclusion that LFS being gamepad free would probably be a good thing. If the devs where to release full support for gamepads I imagine it would attract the wrong type of gamer and in-turn have LFS exude this new unwanted image.

Fact is LFS is a racing simulator, if I where a dev I'd do the same and try to steer my customers (pardon the pun) to use the appropriate tools for the job ie. a steering wheel, as it's the only way of driving the sim at its best....I suppose it's kinda like Boeing selling their new craft fitted with an Atari 2600 console and joystick instead of a cockpit....it just does'nt get the job done.
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Old 4th March 2008, 17:15   #21  -   
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l3aDb0y View Post
Yea I knew what you were saying, thats why I said give gamepad its own category. I apologize for forgetting that LFS recognizes axis and wheel users would be able to select this gamepad option of it were implemented.

I know LFS is meant for a wheel, but not everyone can get one so easily. Hopefully the devs figure out a way to do something about gamepad sensitivity problem without affecting wheel users. I exerpimented again with xbcd utility and deadzones for xbox 360 gamepad, got the best results I have ever gotten so far, but it still has a few problems, delayed steering being one of them due to steer smooth. New deadzone and ranges I am trying are working good for steering, but hard to drift smoothly and sticking to a line. Also car has trouble staying straight even with the deadzone due to steer smooth, any less steer smooth and the steering would go back to being super fast.

What are you talking about?? It is perfectly possible to be very fast with gamepad as long as it has dual analogue sticks on it. Any aids would ruin it. I did myself wr times on some trackes with a gamepad.

For the steering senstitivity, take a good look at the options lfs already has to offer.

Dirfting is an art, not racing, since patch Y you can drift even the f08 around with gamepad. And i don' t like drifting, because it slows me down And i am not good at drifting, much better at getting out of a drift.

Also there are different qualitys of gamepades, one of the best are thrustmaster dual powers, but they are no longer produced.
Maybe a gamepad of the xbox 360 is not as good as you might expected or not suitable to be used in a racing simulation.
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Old 4th March 2008, 17:21   #22  -   
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSU1 View Post

Fact is LFS is a racing simulator, if I where a dev I'd do the same and try to steer my customers (pardon the pun) to use the appropriate tools for the job ie. a steering wheel, as it's the only way of driving the sim at its best....I suppose it's kinda like Boeing selling their new craft fitted with an Atari 2600 console and joystick instead of a cockpit....it just does'nt get the job done.
F-16' s, F-22's etc are doing very well with (seriously improved version of atari) joysticks. In fact a joystick and a seperate simple joystick for throttle is the best combination for flying in a airplane.

But for cars it is less suitable
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Old 4th March 2008, 17:55   #23  -   
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OK heres the thing, I know you can race with gamepads by lowering lock and playing with other settings. Racing isnt the problem for me, yes this is a racing simulator, but I also like to drift. I know drifting is an art, thats why I want some gamepad support, as it is hard to drift smoothly with a gamepad on hot tyres. Holding the stick in areas between the center and full range can be very hard. Trying to go full lock right after you initiate a drift on hot tyres straightens out your car and takes away the smoothness. Since my suggestions are more geared towards drifting, I doubt we gamepadders will get any help, o well, back to trying more thing such as using the analog stick as a mouse axis.
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Old 4th March 2008, 18:17   #24  -   
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l3aDb0y View Post
OK heres the thing, I know you can race with gamepads by lowering lock and playing with other settings. Racing isnt the problem for me, yes this is a racing simulator, but I also like to drift. I know drifting is an art, thats why I want some gamepad support, as it is hard to drift smoothly with a gamepad on hot tyres. Holding the stick in areas between the center and full range can be very hard. Trying to go full lock right after you initiate a drift on hot tyres straightens out your car and takes away the smoothness. Since my suggestions are more geared towards drifting, I doubt we gamepadders will get any help, o well, back to trying more thing such as using the analog stick as a mouse axis.
Why not just get a cheap full joystick off ebay or the like. You can pic them up dirt cheap and it solve your issues.

There is no way it will get added to make drift easier. Why should it be easy, its about car balance?
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Old 4th March 2008, 18:25   #25  -   
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I dont mean make drifting easier. I know this is impossible probally, but I was just trying to figure out a way to help with being able to hold a certain point on the analog stick to be ABLE to drift smoothly a.k.a smooth and constant countersteering. But thats impossible for the devs too do, I guess it all depends on how patient my thumb is :P. As for buying a cheap joystick, I may look into that since joysticks do have FFb :O. I think we can stop talking in this thread unless someone else has some suggestions or if I think of something else =/.
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Old 6th March 2008, 00:07   #26  -   
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l3aDb0y View Post
I know drifting is an art, thats why I want some gamepad support, as it is hard to drift smoothly with a gamepad on hot tyres. Holding the stick in areas between the center and full range can be very hard.
... if the steering axis could be locked by press of a button on pad it would be interesting to see the gain in control by allowing the stick to be -held- at different point along the axis, is impossible to lock steering by ways of software though for input
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Old 6th March 2008, 00:34   #27  -   
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I found a way to do that, although it is very hard for me atm but it is more precise. It would take me some time to learn and some time to find the best settings possible. Through the program "Xpadder", I am able to use the left analog stick as a mouse, with that when i let go of the stick is doesnt spring back to center, just as if you were using a mouse. So ingame I have my steering axis set to mouse x. Like I said, it is pretty hard because using a real mouse you can quickly recover. Although I can make my settings to respond that quickly, it looses the stability to stay straight. Oh and in no way is this a driving aid, since you have to do all the countersteering manually .
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