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ORION
7th June 2007, 11:01
The final results are online now!
Details about the prizes will be announced soon.

http://24h.lfs-tracker.de/result/result.html

Please note that there are 2 kinds of admin penalties:
1.) the penalties for accidents (from the protests)
2.) additional laps, that were lost by the tracker or because of the LFS pit bug.

DeadWolfBones
7th June 2007, 13:55
Hi Orion,

Thanks again for all the work that went into this event.

I have a couple questions re: the LOTA #1 team.

1. I see that we have a -9 in the "Disconnects" column. Does this mean that we were penalized a lap for each disconnect we had? I seem to remember it being made clear that teams would not be penalized for disconnects, aside from the time they lost for the lap they were on when they disconnected.

2. Is our admin penalty of the first sort (missing laps)?

Thanks!

joshdifabio
7th June 2007, 14:35
Was there a 1 lap penalty for disconnects which occurred within the first two sectors or something?

DeadWolfBones
7th June 2007, 14:49
Sure as hell hope not. Every one of our disconnects was unintentional/unavoidable and quite damaging without a penalty being thrown on top. :(

banshee56
7th June 2007, 15:20
About disconnections:
Yes, you can reconnect and the tracker will continue countding you laps. You lose any unfinished lap, though, and the time you need to reconnect of course. We are probably not going to use penatlies of another lap, like they did in the MoE (iirc).

Relative to this, LOTA-1 should be in 45th place overall.

ORION
7th June 2007, 16:15
Well we initially wanted to get the time that a racer has driven in a lap, and add only the time to fill a complete lap. Means: if you get disconnected in the middle of a lap, we wanted to add only half a lap, so you lose a lap in total.
But this turned out to be impossible to make - or the results would be online after S3... :)

Anyways, the lap penalties (like 2L) are positive penalties, means you get additional 2 laps for example. Only the time penalties are negative, the 2 teams lose 30 / 45 seconds because they caused an accident and get the penalty for that.
Adding laps was done because of tracker bugs or the lfs pit bug, and the lfsworld problem.

Fo teams with many disconnections, this solusion really sucks, but it would be unfair to not add any disconect penelties, because some teams might have won a lot time with that, saving a whole pistop if they got dropped at the beginning of a lap in the end of their stint. And again, we cant check that (alao, there are still a few parts of the replays missing for server 1 and 3)

BigTime
7th June 2007, 16:16
After loosing countless laps due to the LOTA - 1 Team disconnects, we still get punished. We easily had a podium finish in reach, I was surprised with this decision. Additional, I was under the influence that there would be not punishment for server disconnects...

DeadWolfBones
7th June 2007, 16:22
Fo teams with many disconnections, this solusion really sucks, but it would be unfair to not add any disconect penelties, because some teams might have won a lot time with that, saving a whole pistop if they got dropped at the beginning of a lap in the end of their stint. And again, we cant check that (alao, there are still a few parts of the replays missing for server 1 and 3)

Is there any evidence of anyone doing this to gain time during the race?

I can assure you that all 6 of my disconnects came within 10 or 12 laps of the previous pitstop, and usually more like 2-3 laps. We lost tons of time on those disconnects--certainly didn't gain any.

I understand the logic of the system you set up, but I feel like unless you actually caught someone disconnecting to shortcut a pitstop, penalizing for each disconnect is going too far.

:shrug:

BigTime
7th June 2007, 16:38
Fo teams with many disconnections, this solusion really sucks, but it would be unfair to not add any disconect penelties, because some teams might have won a lot time with that, saving a whole pistop if they got dropped at the beginning of a lap in the end of their stint. And again, we cant check that (alao, there are still a few parts of the replays missing for server 1 and 3)

If each team was viewed independently (on the tracker) I'm sure you would see that most of the teams with disconnects lost time, such as our selfs especially. Secondly, we have no way of purposly disconnecting ourselfs. Odds are if one disconnects, it would hurt their overall time, unless the disconnect were to happen in the first sector becuase you automatically loose the lap your on. A team is ether lucky or unlucky in this circumstance, therefore I dont see the need for a penelty.

On a whole I see where your coming from just due to the sheer amount of members that perticipated in this race. Then again someone had to make the decision of rather or not there would be a penelty for this. My opinion may differ from yours but I respect your discission. We understand how difficult it is to organize an event such as this, much less having to put up with us. :singer:

banshee56
7th June 2007, 17:11
While I will ultimately respect the decisions of the officials, I must protest any penalties received for unintentional disconnections, which are clearly discernable from intentional. We put a lot of time into preparation and displayed the pace to be on the podium in our class, and it is very dissappointing to be placed 5 spots lower based on a decision to be penalized after it was clear prior to the race that this would not happen.

I would just like the results to reflect the performance we put in on track, and not reflective of problems that are out of our control and not part of racing to begin with.

Nobo
8th June 2007, 13:51
They still need to show me the rule where it says you get -1 lap for disconnects :shrug: I have read the rules several times. Maybe i am blind, haven read the small print, or its just my LRS. We wouldnt have made the risk with our driver a 2nd time if we knew that you get extra penalty, as if the disconnect wouldnt be penalty enough. :shrug:

Rules say:
"...of it you can return to the pits by pressing: shift + s , but therefore we'll decrease your amount of laps by 1."
"When you disconnect or the server crashes, just try to join again and continue racing."


The admins dont want to here the criticism they just shut down the german forum-thread, like a small child hiding there ears and saying "nanananana i cant hear you"
I wouldnt have posted my bad mod about that disconnect topic, but what i cant stand is shut down forum discussion, as if forums were not made to discuss things and people who can lay down their opinion. If you dont want to get down in discussion, then just dont react and discussion will go down soon or later. There was just a little bitching in this thread but language and stuff was ok.
In the end for me we dont have this penalty and if it stands in that table or not, i dont really care.

DeadWolfBones
8th June 2007, 14:22
Seems kind of similar to the weight penalty fiasco, except this time they're not following their own advice and going by the rules that were in place before qualifying.

Whatever. :(

Nobo
8th June 2007, 14:31
BTW i dont want to blame anyone! Especially not Orion who made this event possible and did far more then he originally planned to do. And is the one who has to put his head in for the whole organization which maybe not worked out as well as it was originally planned.
But if i have my opinion and disagree with something or dont find something in the rules i have to say it and dont walk up into someones ass.

DeadWolfBones
8th June 2007, 15:13
Yeah, exactly.

ORION
8th June 2007, 15:43
Well its about common sense here:
Its only written in the rules that you get a penalty when using shift-s, but of course shift-p and a disconnect is the same. You start anew from the pits, with a repaired car and full fuel. Thus the penalty is the same for all.

And yes, I DO regret that I was so silly to take over the organization and make the event happen, rather than do nothing and watch the event being cancelled because things went out of control.
As I posted already in the German forum, I will never be part of any kind of league organization again, its just a waste of time because almost nobody is happy in the end. So why make something that hurts all people who are involved? I mean, this is a game which we play in our free time, and we should actually have fun playing it, rather than scrapping all the time.

The sad story is that Im not the first who regrets having done an event like this. But Im just not the kind of person who watchs his friends getting into trouble.

Anyways, Im not unhappy now because I know that there are still a lot of people who enjoyed the event :)

DeadWolfBones
8th June 2007, 16:09
Well its about common sense here:
Its only written in the rules that you get a penalty when using shift-s, but of course shift-p and a disconnect is the same. You start anew from the pits, with a repaired car and full fuel. Thus the penalty is the same for all.

The difference is in the intent. When you shift-p it's because your car is too damaged to make it worth driving. When you time out or the server crashes, it has nothing to do with you and is already a penalty that's imposed upon you.

I understand that you had a nightmare of a job to do, being given the entire organization of the event to look after on such short notice. I'm not blaming you here, I think you did the best you could with poorly defined rules and bad groundwork for the event. It's just a shame that the whole thing wasn't planned out better.

I'd like to say again that I still had a blast participating in the race and (as I've said elsewhere) it's the best racing I've had in my entire LFS career (since June 2003). It's just frustrating that things were so chaotic and badly defined.

:shrug: