PDA

View Full Version : handicap discussion


joshdifabio
19th May 2007, 18:09
We will use 100kg for the FZR, and 50kg for the XRR, in both race and quali.
People decided to chose the cars with those handicaps, so its the best thing we can do.
You HAVE to be kidding? There is a chance for it to be fair now but you aren't going to allow it? This is only because ZT are driving the FXR isn't it? I don't know why I am suprised really as the organisation has been a complete joke from the start.

Edit: Sign-up for this event started on the 22nd of March, the handicaps didn't come into place until the 14th April. So really, we should all use patch W0 and have no handicaps, right? That's how it was when we signed-up?

ORION
19th May 2007, 18:16
You HAVE to be kidding? There is a chance for it to be fair now but you aren't going to allow it? This is only because ZT are driving the FXR isn't it? I don't know why I am suprised really as the organisation has been a complete joke from the start.

Edit: Sign-up for this event started on the 22nd of March, the handicaps didn't come into place until the 14th April. So really, we should all use patch W0 and have no handicaps, right? That's how it was when we signed-up?


This is the only fair thing we can do, beacause everyone has chosen the cars with those settings.
YOU have chosen those settings.

Actually I should disqualify you for this silly statement, really professional Mr.


We are using the same settings we used for all events. Also, the teams have had the chance to change their car just before that quali started.

joshdifabio
19th May 2007, 18:25
This is the only fair thing we can do, beacause everyone has chosen the cars with those settings.
YOU have chosen those settings.

Actually I should disqualify you for this silly statement, really professional Mr.


We are using the same settings we used for all events. Also, the teams have had the chance to change their car just before that quali started.

Disqualify me for having an opinion? lol. Why if we have been given an opportunity for a fairer race, can't we use that? Just because the FZR teams were disadvantaged to start with, doesn't mean they have to be now. Lots of people have spent lots of time practicing, not just ZT. I don't think it's fair to deny those people a chance to race against the other cars.

Edit: Also, we had no idea before quali started what a pile of crap the FZR was with the 100kg handicap. We aren't a German team, and we aren't close to any other teams competing and therefore we had no idea of the pace of the other teams until qualifying! I'm sure this is the same for most FZR teams, and I think you should consider them as well as all the German teams which are competing.

ORION
19th May 2007, 18:29
The FZR teams have chosen themselves to drive this car, and they knew from the start that it is slower.

If we change any settings, the other teams with FXR and XRR will be moaning...

As said before, YOU have chosen the car - the admin team hasent done anything.

joshdifabio
19th May 2007, 18:34
The FZR teams have chosen themselves to drive this car, and they knew from the start that it is slower.

If we change any settings, the other teams with FXR and XRR will be moaning...

As said before, YOU have chosen the car - the admin team hasent done anything.

Yes, and we would accept having the slower car in the race if there was no other choice, but there is. How can the FXR and XRR teams possibly complain about the race being fair? We did NOT know before qualifying that the FZR was slower than the other cars, as I just said. Although I don't really see that it matters.

ORION
19th May 2007, 18:44
We did NOT know before qualifying that the FZR was slower than the other cars, as I just said. Although I don't really see that it matters.

But why did all the other teams know that? Because they tested the cars maybe? Why did you chose FZR and not XRR?

Further discussion is not needed, because there is only one fair AND consistent solution an admin team can do - let the racers decide. You DID decide.

joshdifabio
19th May 2007, 18:49
But why did all the other teams know that? Because they tested the cars maybe? Why did you chose FZR and not XRR?
Because it was faster when we tried it. Can you show me where these people are that are complaining or will complain about the handicaps? I'm pretty sure that everyone would accept the FZR teams having a fair stab at the race.

ORION
19th May 2007, 19:05
Just imagine we change the settings and an FZR wins.
We cant use differnt settings within one event, its just unfair.

Again:
YOU made the decision.


I can only do what Scawen does all the time: If you dont like this, just make your own 24h race... We are trying really hard to get a great event - the biggest racing event in LFS history, and Im getting pretty sad if people like you come here and call this "a complete joke from the start".

You can be 100% sure that ANY other admin would have banned you for this. Im always trying to make things perfect, and the other 3 admins do the same. If you still dont like it, I cant understand that.


Please dont blame the admins for YOUR decision.


Now I know how Scawen must feel... really frustrating.

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 19:08
That really isn't fair. If the community standard is 40 and 80 kg pentalties, i don't believe it fair for you to overrule that.

ORION
19th May 2007, 19:10
We dont overrule anything. Scawen overrules our setting and we dont use it because it would be unfair to change things after people decided which cars to use.

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 19:12
Yes, you are overruling the "fair" GTR class pentalties, as they exist as of now for LFS.

Scawen is LFS, and the community has given feedback that the current class balance needs to be 0/40/80 kg. We all agree qualifying was done under different circumstances, but you need to go with the current balance.

If Scawen determined that the 0/40/80kg is fair, it is unfair for you to decide otherwise.

joshdifabio
19th May 2007, 19:58
Imortant data for now:
Patch W21 will be used in the whole quali (=all quali dates)
About the balancing issue, I have no clue yet how the X patch will handle this, so we have to wait I guess. For the race, we will use the latest patch. If patch X isnt out in time, we cant use it of course :D This seems to contradict what you are saying now, or at least it contradicts the principle of what you are saying.

Just imagine we change the settings and an FZR wins.

If they won, then it would be fair. They would have won on a level playing field.

Further discussion is not needed, because there is only one fair AND consistent solution an admin team can do - let the racers decide.

So how about we let the racers decide, and have a vote? Somehow, I'm rather certain that you won't allow this.

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 20:19
We chose our cars based on the knowledge that the would be as provided by LFS. We did not chose knowing that they would be "balanced" by means other than LFS.

As you said, Latest Test patch, at the moment, 0/40/80 kg. Don't go back from your rules...

Nobo
19th May 2007, 20:27
let it be like it was in qualy, everything else would be a mess, everyone had the chance to decide untill qualy.

So use this specs or you would have to allow everyone to change again, new qualy....blabla

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 20:28
how about you let the orga decide.....and just quit the race if you cant agree with the rules?

Remix
19th May 2007, 20:36
same as some weeks ago... when the question about w or w17 was discussed..

we chose w17/any Test-Patch because of some advantages (player slots and so on) ...

after this, EVERYBODY had the chance to change his car because some performances had changed!..

we drove the quali and practised with 0/50/100..

if we drove with 0/40/80 now.. we would have to allow a carchange again, then we must do a new quali, new car-settings.. ...

OR, we just say that we drive with the old 0/50/100 and everything is ok..

YOU decided which car you want to drive with the 0/50/100 settings.. and now you have to live with your decision.. everybody has to! ... but you also have the right, that this settings will be used..


this is the main reason why we will drive with the old penalty settings :)

nice greetz from germany :)
da^reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemixx ;)


ps: nobo, thx :) you are GREAT!! ZT loves you :) :)

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 20:48
if we drove with 0/40/80 now.. we would have to allow a carchange again, then we must do a new quali, new car-settings.. ...

OR, we just say that we drive with the old 0/50/100 and everything is ok..

YOU decided which car you want to drive with the 0/50/100 settings.. and now you have to live with your decision.. everybody has to! ... but you also have the right, that this settings will be used..




You all are using some really backwards logic. Sorry, but that is the truth.

You said the latest test patch would be used. Latest test patch is 0/40/80 kg.

Its going to be a huge headache for you to ensure everyone is using the right ballast, and what if they don't? There is no easy way for everyone to know that no-one is cheating, so you have jeopardized the legitamicy of the event already.

Again, the reason the 0/50/100 was changed to be Fair to everyone. Therefore, NOT changing is Not Fair...

Please think about this.

BenjiMC
19th May 2007, 20:58
+1 from me too. the weights should be as the rules suggest, latest patch is used!

joshdifabio
19th May 2007, 20:59
Ok, well I see that all three of you (Nobo, PudelHH, Remix) are driving FXRs, so I can understand that you don't want the FZRs to be competitive with you. Especially since the XRR, in my opinion, is already the better car over a race distance, compared to the FXR.

We will accept the rules as they are, as although we feel that they are unfair, there is clearly nothing we can do about it. So, it is most likely that we will take part in the race, and with some luck compete for the GTR class win in the slower car.

ORION - I hope that we can put this behind us, maybe some of the things I said were taken a little personally, but I only stated my honest feelings and I can't change how I feel.

joshdifabio
19th May 2007, 21:02
You all are using some really backwards logic. Sorry, but that is the truth.

You said the latest test patch would be used. Latest test patch is 0/40/80 kg.

Its going to be a huge headache for you to ensure everyone is using the right ballast, and what if they don't? There is no easy way for everyone to know that no-one is cheating, so you have jeopardized the legitamicy of the event already.

Again, the reason the 0/50/100 was changed to be Fair to everyone. Therefore, NOT changing is Not Fair...

Please think about this.

+1

+1 from me too. the weights should be as the rules suggest, latest patch is used!

I don't think that we will be able to change this now, but I am grateful for your support, especially the two of you from clownpaint whose team the new ballasts (0/40/80) would possibly disadvantage.

Respect.

DeadWolfBones
19th May 2007, 21:03
+1

FZR is now slower AND uses more fuel? This makes it *completely* useless.

My team is XRR, so I don't really have a bias in the matter (and I'm driving the other car anyway, the XFR).

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 21:06
latest test patches has nothing to do with "global balancing" from master server....so if we would use w17 we had same weights...0/40/80...so dont argue with testpatches!!!!

the cars were choosed with 0/50/100....so be sportsmen and accept the rules to drive the race with that setting. nobody could imagine that devs are going to change the balancing one week before the race and giving avdvantages to xrr/fzr cars without giving the fxr cars a chance to change the car.

b0nd
19th May 2007, 21:07
0/60/90 would be nice :D

DeadWolfBones
19th May 2007, 21:09
the cars were choosed with 0/50/100....so be sportsmen and accept the rules to drive the race with that setting. nobody could imagine that devs are going to change the balancing one week before the race and giving avdvantages to xrr/fzr cars without giving the fxr cars a chance to change the car.

I'm still not sure why you're so scared of the 0/40/80 thing, since it would at least make the cars more equal, NOT make the FZR faster. and given that the FZR still has a much higher rate of gas consumption you'd still be better off driving the XRR or FXR.

And as far as a chance to change the car... you either mean to change to use a different car or to change the setup of your existing car. In the former case... would you really switch to the FZR? C'mon. In the latter, you still have a week to tweak the setup. I don't really see the problem here.

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 21:10
latest test patches has nothing to do with "global balancing" from master server....




Actually they do.

Go download a fresh install of LFS S2alpha Patch W. NO balancing weights.

Download a TEST patch. Global balancing.

E-Z.BasTi
19th May 2007, 21:11
0/60/90 would be nice :D

+1 for 0/100/200

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 21:13
Actually they do.

Go download a fresh install of LFS S2alpha Patch W. NO balancing weights.

Download a TEST patch. Global balancing.


i have w17.....and have now 0/40/80 global balancing...thanks!!!!:scratchch

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 21:14
i have w17.....and have now 0/40/80 global balancing...thanks!!!!:scratchch


W17 is a TEST PATCH. Thank you for proving my point.

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 21:16
W17 is a TEST PATCH. Thank you for proving my point.


yeah.,..but w17 was the patch we used for choosing cars...and w24 is still also a testpatch. thanks for proving my point. damn.

AppiePils
19th May 2007, 21:17
+1

Since obvious a decision has been made to use the test patches for this event you, as the organization, should stick to the use of the latest test patch as it was already told at W10 and the following test patches that the balance between the cars was still under development.

That's why you should stick to remain in accordance with your earlier made choices regarding the use of test patches.

All racers were aware of the fact that test patches would be used for this event and as a consequence (small) moderations to the balance could be made. Like Orion said, it was the drivers choice to pick a car with that knowledge in mind, that's why now you cannot go back and say we stick to a certain level. That would undermine your own decision making.

And Josh don't start accusing of any unfairness towards Orion/ the organization. The alterations based on the balance have an impact on the organization and to start undermining the organization with some lame accusations is no good to the cause at all. Anyhow your apology is a better sign of appreciation.

I also can understand Orion/ the organization's point of view, but for me personally the above given explanation is considerable more weightily.

BenjiMC
19th May 2007, 21:20
latest test patches has nothing to do with "global balancing" from master server....so if we would use w17 we had same weights...0/40/80...so dont argue with testpatches!!!!

the cars were choosed with 0/50/100....so be sportsmen and accept the rules to drive the race with that setting. nobody could imagine that devs are going to change the balancing one week before the race and giving avdvantages to xrr/fzr cars without giving the fxr cars a chance to change the car.

Why dont you be a good sportsman and accept the rule which is ALREADY in place that we will use the latest testpatch meaning we will use the LATEST balancing, tbh i woulda never used a testpatch since it's a TESTpatch but thats not my desicion.

ORION
19th May 2007, 21:20
Well, all we can do now is the following:

Set up a test 24 hours race and see which car is how fast, then change the handicap according to that, and drive the actual 24 race :)

start in 10 minutes on Race #1 server :D

b0nd
19th May 2007, 21:21
a 2 hours race would be enough to see which car is the fastest

BenjiMC
19th May 2007, 21:23
ye, a shorter 2 horu race maybe or 3 hours, and i mean in 10 minutes? Nice:really:

MARSH2a
19th May 2007, 21:23
Well, all we can do now is the following:

Set up a test 24 hours race and see which car is how fast, then change the handicap according to that, and drive the actual 24 race :)

start in 10 minutes on Race #1 server :D

Or, just not change anything at this point. Why create this issue now?

ORION
19th May 2007, 21:23
nobody will drive the car on the limit anyways though, unless we force the teams to drive another car than the one they signed up with...

Or, just not change anything at this point. Why create this issue now?
exactly.... just dont change anything and stay at 0/50/100 like it was all the time...

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 21:24
In this circumstance, the test patch was a major "selling point" for the race, as it would open up the competition to new levels with 32 races per server.
I would appreciate seeing the organizers response to my concerns over using un-official balancing weights:



You said the latest patch would be used. Latest test patch is 0/40/80 kg. Latest official patch, 'W', is still 0/0/0. Are we going to use that???

It's going to be a huge headache for you to ensure everyone is using the right ballast, and what if they don't? There is no easy way for everyone to know that no-one is cheating, so you have jeopardized the legitamicy of the event already.

Again, the reason the 0/50/100 was changed to be Fair to everyone. Therefore, NOT changing is Not Fair...

Please think about this.

ORION
19th May 2007, 21:27
you dont seem to understand that the test patch version number has nothing to do with the balancing. Balancing was added in a test patch, and it changes by the master in all test patches, even if the cange is made after the patch is released. So we CANT go back to W17 for example, unless we put the settings back aswell.

So, effectively we dont change anything. Scawen changed the values, and we decided to keep the old ones.

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 21:28
Why dont you be a good sportsman and accept the rule which is ALREADY in place that we will use the latest testpatch meaning we will use the LATEST balancing, tbh i woulda never used a testpatch since it's a TESTpatch but thats not my desicion.


the testpatch was taken because of the slot-improvement....at this stage nobody was imagine that global balancing is going to be changed (again....with old w17 patch....balancing is same as with w24). it would be unfair for all fxr drivers to allow the xrr/fzr cars to drive the race with lower weight than before carchange-deadline....its just for the fairness of 24h race....nothing against community decision that xrr/fzr are to slow at all against fxr. :shrug:

MARSH2a
19th May 2007, 21:28
So how will you enforce the voluntary addition of mass?

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 21:30
the testpatch was taken because of the slot-improvement....at this stage nobody was imagine that global balancing is going to be changed (again....with old w17 patch....balancing is same as with w24). it would be unfair for all fxr drivers to allow the xrr/fzr cars to drive the race with lower weight than before carchange-deadline....its just for the fairness of 24h race....nothing against community decision that xrr/fzr are to slow at all against fxr.

So to make it fair to the FXR drivers, you use rules that we're deemed Unfair by the LFS developer, and unfair to ALL the other GTR drivers.

Very backwards.

ORION
19th May 2007, 21:30
Its not about making it fair for drivers x in car y, we are just making it fair for ALL drivers... because you decided yourself. PERIOD.

You are free to sign out if you dont like this.

joshdifabio
19th May 2007, 21:34
So how will you enforce the voluntary addition of mass?

F11

Yes, you are actually able to see how much ballast a car is carrying by pressing F11 while spectating that car.

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 21:34
So to make it fair to the FXR drivers, you use rules that we're deemed Unfair by the LFS developer, and unfair to ALL the other GTR drivers.

Very backwards.


you dont understand sorry...not MAKING it fair for fxr driver....than KEEPING it fair for fxr drivers....BIG difference. but seems its not possible to make it understandable for you.

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 21:35
Its not about making it fair for drivers x in car y, we are just making it fair for ALL drivers... because you decided yourself. PERIOD.

You are free to sign out if you dont like this.
It might not be "about" making it "fair" for a-car b-car.... but that's what it has become.

And again:

You said the latest patch would be used. Latest test patch is 0/40/80 kg. Latest official patch, 'W', is still 0/0/0. Are we going to use that?

There is no easy way for everyone to know that no-one is cheating, so you have jeopardized the legitamicy of the event already. We can't be going spectating other drivers' F11 while we are racing.

Please think about this.

ORION
19th May 2007, 21:37
The last test patch is W24 and not 0/40/80 kg.

Or do you say "Im red pullover old"?

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 21:39
you dont understand sorry...not MAKING it fair for fxr driver....than KEEPING it fair for fxr drivers....BIG difference. but seems its not possible to make it understandable for you.


The ballast was changed because it was UNFAIR to FZR and XRR.

You are keeping it UNFAIR to FZR and XRR.

How hard is that?

ORION
19th May 2007, 21:42
The things you say begin to make less and less sense.
The XRR is the fastest car, so why is it fairer to make it even faster?
;)

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 21:43
The ballast was changed because it was UNFAIR to FZR and XRR.

You are keeping it UNFAIR to FZR and XRR.

How hard is that?

all who changed the car to fxr or who used the fxr car from beginning in 24h race diddnt know until yesterday, that fxr car is in adavantage to xrr/fzr UNTIL yesterday...so just accept the rules or give the fxr drivers again the chance to choose their car, new qualifying etc.....pls understand!!!!

MARSH2a
19th May 2007, 21:43
Its not about making it fair for drivers x in car y, we are just making it fair for ALL drivers... because you decided yourself. PERIOD.

You are free to sign out if you dont like this.

You keep saying this but the fact is we decided on the car before any handicaps were added. We all understood when the patches came out that there was a possibility of the handicaps being finalized or not by race day. Fair to ALL drivers is to not select a period of development but to go with current development as we all anticipated there could be changes.

It just seems inappropriate to make a rule at the 11th hour so to speak. And to offer an option to not race just seems like an unreasonable option. Many teams have put a lot of time in practice as the various handicaps were changing. No one wants to back out now.

ORION
19th May 2007, 21:43
fxr isnt faster than xrr

ORION
19th May 2007, 21:46
You keep saying this but the fact is we decided on the car before any handicaps were added.

Well thats your problem, there were many days time inbetween, rather weeks, in which all the other teams managed to test the handicaps and change their car choice accordingly.

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 21:47
We all understood when the patches came out that there was a possibility of the handicaps being finalized or not by race day.

no, we didnt...and thats the point. we understand that something more is changing in details.....skins, grapghic wahtever, but not global balancing....thats the point.

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 21:47
Originally Posted by ORION
Imortant data for now:
Patch W21 will be used in the whole quali (=all quali dates)
About the balancing issue, I have no clue yet how the X patch will handle this, so we have to wait I guess. For the race, we will use the latest patch. If patch X isnt out in time, we cant use it of course


You have no idea how X will handle balancing. You do now, it's 0/40/80. Use it.

"For the race we will use the latest patch." Now, is that patch, or Test Patch. I'll assume the later, but we don't know. Either way, you say "latest patch" NOT latest patch *(As we see fit)....

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 21:50
You have no idea how X will handle balancing. You do now, it's 0/40/80. Use it.

"For the race we will use the latest patch." Now, is that patch, or Test Patch. I'll assume the later, but we don't know. Either way, you say "latest patch" NOT latest patch *(As we see fit)....


as mentioned already...its not testpatch...its just global balancing....a complete different thing.....as you can see....so accept the rules or quit the race.

MARSH2a
19th May 2007, 21:51
Well thats your problem, there were many days time inbetween, rather weeks, in which all the other teams managed to test the handicaps and change their car choice accordingly.

Well I never considered it a problem... :smileypul

You see, it's not like were competing for a podium finish here, not this team. We choose the car just because. The same reason others chose whatever they driver other than the GTR's.

Please don't try to make this personal by suggesting it's my problem. I didn't do anything but pick a car and stick with it regardless of development. However you Sir, chose to change the rules. After any car switching could have been done. :shrug:

ORION
19th May 2007, 21:53
lol...

before: 0/50/100
now: 0/50/100

where do you see a rule change there?

MARSH2a
19th May 2007, 21:53
no, we didnt...and thats the point. we understand that something more is changing in details.....skins, grapghic wahtever, but not global balancing....thats the point.

This thread doesn't discuss any of those issues.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=22869

MARSH2a
19th May 2007, 21:58
lol...

before: 0/50/100
now: 0/50/100

where do you see a rule change there?

Here is a rule addition, restriction, what ever you want to call it it is new.

We will use 100kg for the FZR, and 50kg for the XRR, in both race and quali.

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 22:00
This thread doesn't discuss any of those issues.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=22869


this thread doesnt discuss the 24h race...and i am talking about a RACE....one race....where a a qualifying has been done...and where no global balancing will be changed because of "scawen have a good to day" to think to change it before one week of the race. at least he gave us the possibility to keep the race on FAIR level (means AS QUALIFIED).

ORION
19th May 2007, 22:00
so, 0/50/100 is unfair, and 0/50/100 isnt? :)

remings me of the Verizon math thread tbh

Hey, maybe tomorrow a dollar is 10dollars worth, cool stuff :)

MARSH2a
19th May 2007, 22:03
so, 0/50/100 is unfair, and 0/50/100 isnt? :)

remings me of the Verizon math thread tbh

Hey, maybe tomorrow a dollar is 10dollars worth, cool stuff :)

Nice.

ORION
19th May 2007, 22:05
So, did you FINALLY realize that we did actually do nothing, except saying we are going to do nothing? fine...

Than I can go to bed without having to worry :)

BenjiMC
19th May 2007, 22:09
The way i see it is, you guys said latest patch, therefore it should be the latest developments like the 32 car grid and like the 0/40/80 weight balancing. And as already said the new balancing is much more fair for ALL drivers. so if you want to keep it fair i'd suggest using that. All of the competitors bar those from germany are saying this so if your good organizers you would do this... I did it with my league and managed to accept that i made a few mistakes and didn't make up rules or things on the spot. When i did do those there was confusion and protest which i had to apologise for and personally felt a prat... Just some advice from a fellow organiser :thumbsup:

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 22:09
So, did you FINALLY realize that we did actually do nothing, except saying we are going to do nothing? fine...

Than I can go to bed without having to worry :)
Do nothing??? Last time I checked you just Made all the FZR and XRR teams ADD VOLUNTARY Ballast.

MARSH2a
19th May 2007, 22:11
So, did you FINALLY realize that we did actually do nothing, except saying we are going to do nothing? fine...

Than I can go to bed without having to worry :)

No, I realized you've begun to stray off topic and insult. So I figure your another one of those folks. :thumb:

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 22:13
The things you say begin to make less and less sense.
The XRR is the fastest car, so why is it fairer to make it even faster?
;)
See, you Never said you would get involved with balancing the GTR class.

You implied you would go with whatever the latest status of LFS is.

Now you changed the rules to go against these two things you based this race on.

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 22:20
yo, seems nobody getting the point that qualifying with a car should be something like racing a car.....anyhow...have fun here for further discussions and drive with angry stomache thinking to be on the unadvantaged side or just spectate or whatever....you guys are just too skilled to defense optinons....i am off here. cya

srdsprinter
19th May 2007, 22:26
yo, seems nobody getting the point that qualifying with a car should be something like racing a car.....anyhow...have fun here for further discussions and drive with angry stomache thinking to be on the unadvantaged side or just spectate or whatever....you guys are just too skilled to defense optinons....i am off here. cya
When you provide a logical resolution, we will accept.

You have not.

Are you going to run your car as you qualified it? No changes to the fuel load, tyres, or setup? Are you going to race over the large kerbs as you did in qualifying? Somehow I doubt it. You're going to change, and the weight should be no different.

Please, this just is absurd. Its 10 and 20 kilograms, its part of the game now.

Use your heads please.

Jakg
19th May 2007, 22:27
yeah.,..but w17 was the patch we used for choosing cars...and w24 is still also a testpatch. thanks for proving my point. damn.
Yes, but use W17-W24 and the master server applies ballast automagically, and yet your trying to break what imo is a lot better balancing system
...giving avdvantages to xrr/fzr cars without giving the fxr cars a chance to change the car.
This is how i see it (my team are entering an RXR and XRG if they can ever be bothered to quali, but i really don't think i'm biased)

FXR SHOULD be slower, its 4WD and easier to drive, however it might be more consistent over a longer distance, making up for the speed defecit.
FZR SHOULD be fastest, but also the hardest to drive because of the NA giving you all of the power now. It does however eat tyres and fuel - balancing out the speed.
XRR is mid-way - slightly easier than the FZR, and so a little slower, but also a little lighter on tyres/fuel.

They are different cars, balanced in different ways - but over 24 hours the cars should play out about balanced, although the FXR WILL have a fight on its hands (and rightly so - its easier!) due to its slowness

AppiePils
19th May 2007, 22:33
The way i see it is, you guys said latest patch, therefore it should be the latest developments like the 32 car grid and like the 0/40/80 weight balancing. And as already said the new balancing is much more fair for ALL drivers. so if you want to keep it fair i'd suggest using that. All of the competitors bar those from germany are saying this so if your good organizers you would do this... I did it with my league and managed to accept that i made a few mistakes and didn't make up rules or things on the spot. When i did do those there was confusion and protest which i had to apologise for and personally felt a prat... Just some advice from a fellow organiser :thumbsup:

I totally agree with BenjiMC. As an organizer the most important thing is being consistent. Not being consistent leads to a questionable integrity which eventually will demolish all the hard work you guys have put in setting up this event.

That also counts for the tone in certain posts of the organization which are basically lack any respect. You may get annoyed, but at least, especially as the organization, keep the responds professional and in a respectful manner.

yo, seems nobody getting the point that qualifying with a car should be something like racing a car.....anyhow...have fun here for further discussions and drive with angry stomache thinking to be on the unadvantaged side or just spectate or whatever....you guys are just too skilled to defense optinons....i am off here. cya

Goodnight, hopefully the level of discussion will rise again as I have not seen 1 single well-argumented post from you.

PudelHH
19th May 2007, 22:51
I totally agree with BenjiMC. As an organizer the most important thing is being consistent. Not being consistent leads to a questionable integrity which eventually will demolish all the hard work you guys have put in setting up this event.

That also counts for the tone in certain posts of the organization which are basically lack any respect. You may get annoyed, but at least, especially as the organization, keep the responds professional and in a respectful manner.



Goodnight, hopefully the level of discussion will rise again as I have not seen 1 single well-argumented post from you.


yep, its hard to to understand that teams want to drive same settings as they qualified....but you american genies seems to be to clever for the old europeans....i am sorry for being noob. sorry, really.

anyhow, i think it will not change the anti-american decision of 24h race to race with 0/50/100...so just live with the decsion and save yr energy for further....ähm....just live with it.

AppiePils
19th May 2007, 23:41
Funny.

First of all I'm Dutch who just happen to life in the US (for 8 months now) so that's one of the zillion arguments why your comparison makes no point at all. Besides what has being clever to do with staying consistent and thus being integer as an organizer. Perhaps the organization should try to get their head out of the asses who they tend to please, and start dealing with that what is important; being consequent, consistent and integer, as is well written by BenjiMC in his post (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=427651#post427651). I'd like to see a reply of the organization to this post.

Secondly, your argument about "teams want to drive same settings as they qualified" makes no sense at all, otherwise there wouldn't be so much responses of different teams stating that they don't agree with this sudden change of rules.

Third, could one of the organizer tell me what the goal was to start this event? From what I recall it's an free for all event, so not only those you please, and as a result I - and I guess I speak for all the others too - expect the organization to act unprejudiced and with respect towards each participant.

Finally, PudelHH, I thank you for proving my point, since once again your post is a clear example of a none constructive post to solve anything.

N I K I
19th May 2007, 23:49
FXR SHOULD be slower, its 4WD and easier to drive, however it might be more consistent over a longer distance, making up for the speed defecit.
FZR SHOULD be fastest, but also the hardest to drive because of the NA giving you all of the power now. It does however eat tyres and fuel - balancing out the speed.
XRR is mid-way - slightly easier than the FZR, and so a little slower, but also a little lighter on tyres/fuel.

this is it, and this is what we have with 0/40/80.... so ORION 0/50/100 doesn't look good, please hear the community and use 0/40/80 or your and your's team respect will be gone forever...

BenjiMC
19th May 2007, 23:53
and if your gonna start making this a country thing, check out all the germans that seem to preffer the 0/50/100 balancing aswell as, it seems, the fact that use non-germans seemed to of been less well informed on rules and dates and changes than the german LFS community. TBH the organisation all the way has been pretty on and off and a lot of things haven't been too clear. It's getting as bad as the "Forum Teams" situation. Just listen to the General competitors, or even better do a vote! if you check my subforum, a lot of the decisions i've made are done by votes.

Edit: no need ofr a vote, i used some initiative

Fetzo
20th May 2007, 07:55
the 24h race would be a great event to test the new 0/40/80 system.

too bad, we can't do this :(.

p.s.:
in the german forum, most of the people don't understand the decision either. surprisingly only fxr drivers do.

E-Z.BasTi
20th May 2007, 08:16
p.s.:
in the german forum, most of the people don't understand the decision either. surprisingly only fxr drivers do.

Really? I count 4 positive answers and only 1 negative. So perhaps you need to lern counting?

I Cannot understand this discussion here!?
It is absolutely normal what the organisation has done. The last date to choose a team, to change drivers and to decide which car the team will use was 12th may 22:00 UCT. And to this date, their was the balancing 0/50/100. So everybody was able to test and decide which car he want to drive corresponding THIS balancing. Every Team drive the quali with 0/50/100. So there is absolutely no need to change it now!! The FZR drivers choose the car with 0/50/100 and have to live with it now. They had the chance to take the xrr or the fxr. But they did not do it.

Further in the german forum every FZR driver said, that their is no change of speed, 10 or 20kg is their to less to feel a difference. LOL, so if their is no difference, they could drive the first balancing, because they said their is no difference. ;)

Furthermore you are talking about better balancing? Perhaps on other tracks, but not on this one. You wanna have a perfect balancing, that the cars are nearly same way fast for 24h race? Then we have to take 0/60/90 i think. But this is only my opinion.

But it is very funny to have a look at her postings. Some here are having an IQ like my room temperature. There is no need to discuss. One event = one setting. You cannot drive the quali with other balancing than the race. This is absolutely unnormal. In the ESL you can change cars, too, if there comes a new balancing or new physics. Why let the ESL the drivers this chance? Right, because everything else would be unfair. So if we take the new balancing, we have to open the sign-up again. Everyone can take a new car. Then we have to do a new quali and then we can race. This is absolutely shit !

And if you guys will not understand it, please be so fair and quit the race. I do not think, that the organisation will change anything, they will use 0/50/100. So be a man, live with the decision you made until deadline for choosing cars and drive a clear race! Or shut up and do not drive the race.

And that this decision have nothing to do with the ZT Teams is clear for every intelligent guy. The XRR is the fastest car. And if the Organisation should to anything to push their own teams, they need to use the new balancing and open the sign-up again, so that ZT is able to choose the XRR. ONLY THEN it is pushing the own Team!!!

Fetzo
20th May 2007, 08:23
well posts from fxr drivers and the zt team not counted, i can say that it seems that many of the forum-members think this decision is a reflection of your will to win this event :).

Wulle
20th May 2007, 08:49
I'm just curious: What happens, if the balancing is changed again (before the 24h race) and the XRR would have a 5% air restriction? Is it possible to add a negative penalty to the car?