New Tyre Physics (work in progress)

[kamkorPL]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

The loss of grip in LFS and in real life is very gradual, but in real life tyres do tend to regain grip quite suddenly, which is this snappy thing you refer to, and LFS is a little to relaxed on that front. I've found that in LFS once you start sliding it's actually quite difficult to end that slide even if you've got it 99.9999% corrected. In real life you correct it about 90% and the 'snap' does the rest...

You've got a point there Tristan. Although I think it depends on steering feedback (forcefeedback in lfs) too. Car settings matter too. When I started I was indeed often using that snap to finnish a drift at some point. It also helped me quickly regain grip to avoid a spinning car. But recently I noticed it's better to gradually steer to center on power out. It looks nicer too. It's just a bit uncomfortable with steering that e30 has - 1440 degrees from lock to lock.

But still I am even afraid to say its snappy, because people really take that word seriously. It's snappy in an easy way to control, and it is only making things easier not harder. Let's hope new lfs tire physics adress this issue and several others. And the funniest thing is, drifting in lfs is a bit too hard now, some stability is missing in tires. I really can't wait for this new patch.

p.s.: What I wonder is how slick tires really act on a street alike car. And how much difference in for example snapyness there can be beetwen one slick and another. And if slick is really as snappy as people say. I'd like to hear input from people who tested them in real life and not opinions based on slip angle diagrams though. I would be for example very interested to hear Tristan feedback on slick tires, even if only from open wheeler experience. Tristan please? And maybe opinion from someone who tested slick tires on normal (non formula) car as well.

edit:

using snap back example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk 27th second. Simply easier to end drift in that place and requires less effort. But looks not very good.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by wheel4hummer

Unless you're counter-steering too much while it snaps, or don't turn the wheel straight fast enough when it gets traction, then you just start spinning in the opposite direction, right?

Indeedily do. In most sims it's relatively easy to unwind the lock at the right time/pace to avoid over correcting.

Originally Posted by wheel4hummer

Also, why is it so much more difficult to correct oversteer at all in an open-wheeled car in LFS then in road cars? Is it like that in real life too?

It's mainly to do with the weight distribution (mid/rear engined), lightweight, polar moments and the characteristics of slick tyres... Yes, open wheeled cars are harder to 'catch' and 'slide' but it's still eminently possible (thought most of time it's not done on purpose, but to save one's skin).

Originally Posted by Falcon77

..And that snap is also quite visible in a lot of videos/incars. Unfortunately AFAIK it's extremely hard to reproduce in a sim, in fact I cannot name any that does it well..

Me neither. rFactor 'feels' (to me) like they tried to bodge it in to the sim, but ended up with snappy loss of grip and soft regaining... But that could be a host of other factors... NetKar is currently closest with it's beta version, although I'm not convinced that the latest version has gone in the right direction (though this is based on about 10 minutes of play time, and I'm not sure what setups I was running, but the FTarget felt very odd now, but it could be a leftover setup from a previous beta where I went a bit mad with my setup experimentation )

Originally Posted by kamkorPL

But still I am even afraid to say its snappy, because people really take that word seriously. It's snappy in an easy way to control, and it is only making things easier not harder.

'Snappy' must be used within inverted commas to make sure it's a vague description... Tis true that it's something that would appear to make driving harder, but in fact makes it easier (unless you are slow unwinding the lock, in which case you get punished twice as hard!!).

Originally Posted by kamkorPL

p.s.: What I wonder is how slick tires really act on a street alike car. And how much difference in for example snapyness there can be beetwen one slick and another. And if slick is really as snappy as people say. I'd like to hear input from people who tested them in real life and not opinions based on slip angle diagrams though. I would be for example very interested to hear Tristan feedback on slick tires, even if only from open wheeler experience. Tristan please? And maybe opinion from someone who tested slick tires on normal (non formula) car as well.

It's a tricky one, because obviously the cars are very different, and I've not driven the single seater on road tyres (cut slick wets don't count, and I've only driven on them in the wet anyway!). However, I would suggest, though I have no way of proving it or validating my opinion, that the CAR has more effect than the TYRE. i.e. the fact that cars with slick tyres are 'snappier' is because cars with slicks are lighter, more powerful, lower CoG, lower polar moment and driven much closer to 'The Limit'. Perhaps the same car on 'road tyres' would be just as snappy (hence your question I suppose!).

In short, who knows. I doubt even the tyre companies really know, as they're understanding of tyres remains woefully inadequate anyway.

[Calvinaquino]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

The loss of grip in LFS and in real life is very gradual, but in real life tyres do tend to regain grip quite suddenly, which is this snappy thing you refer to, and LFS is a little to relaxed on that front. I've found that in LFS once you start sliding it's actually quite difficult to end that slide even if you've got it 99.9999% corrected. In real life you correct it about 90% and the 'snap' does the rest...

That is the reason why Drifting is easier than normal in lfs.

[Falcon77]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Me neither. rFactor 'feels' (to me) like they tried to bodge it in to the sim, but ended up with snappy loss of grip and soft regaining... But that could be a host of other factors... NetKar is currently closest with it's beta version, although I'm not convinced that the latest version has gone in the right direction (though this is based on about 10 minutes of play time, and I'm not sure what setups I was running, but the FTarget felt very odd now, but it could be a leftover setup from a previous beta where I went a bit mad with my setup experimentation )

Generally I can't decide if it's a missing "effect" from the tire dynamic response or just a result of the slight but inevitable delay of the controllers. What I'm referring to (and I think you are, too, at least in part) is the situation where a starting slide is caught with very small steering input and the car immediately straightens, and does a little "wobble" before it settles. This might well be related to the much more direct feedback on the steering wheel IRL. Should try to find a video I guess..

Oh, one more thing: although the aligning moment of the tires is a relatively small factor, it does add to the straightening of the cars. Once the slip angles of the tires fall down from the full sliding regime, the aligning moment rises to help straighten the car. - But this part is easy to model and actually part of the tire models, so it shouldn't be a factor in the difference from sim and real life..

[legoflamb]

Originally Posted by aoun

Check the credits when you exit LFS. theres a list of the beta testers there.

I will do that. However, I have no way of doing a background check though legal means.

[zeugnimod]

Originally Posted by legoflamb

I will do that. However, I have no way of doing a background check though legal means.

Most names in there should ring a bell if you followed the "LFS scene" a bit in the last years.

[legoflamb]

Originally Posted by zeugnimod

Most names in there should ring a bell if you followed the "LFS scene" a bit in the last years.

I'll just trust their abilities on the fact that they have been bata-testing LFS for a while and there have not been many major problems with the physics that are known about since they've been beta testing.

[pearcy_2k7]

The only one i recognise is Dave

[pandera]

for me quite an interesting info would be if the new tyre physics was developed with future wet weather driving support in mind...

that would mean that introducing wet weather in the future would not require any unwanted changes in car's behaviour on dry surface, just extending the model not changing it again...

but thats pure wishfull thinking combined with speculation

[AstroBoy]

Well it seems to me like this thread has gone to the dogs.
Mould and spat out, orgininally it started as something great and has turned into something terrible.
Get your panties out of a bunch and man up princess!

[Alric]

Originally Posted by pandera

for me quite an interesting info would be if the new tyre physics was developed with future wet weather driving support in mind...

that would mean that introducing wet weather in the future would not require any unwanted changes in car's behaviour on dry surface, just extending the model not changing it again...

but thats pure wishfull thinking combined with speculation

Good point. I'm sure Scawen and co has it in them to develop truley brilliant wet weather handling and physics but maybe that's a few years away if we're lucky.

[Funnybear]

I'm sure that the whole reason for this bottom up reprogramming approach is that Scawen has known for a while that the tyre physics won't stand up in the rain, as it where. So rather than mash on through and make a hash up when rain is implimented he has done the honourable thing and taken the engine to bits to make it inifintly better for you and me. Which is kinda what he said anyway when he explained the delays.

I'll get ma coat.

[JJ72]

Originally Posted by Funnybear

I'll get ma coat.

me too.

[Whiskey]

As an example of the discussion from post #659 onwards (it's on wet conditions):

Minute 17:25 -> http://videos.streetfire.net/video/T...-II_205713.htm

[Napalm Candy]

Originally Posted by Matrixi

What the man said. The Solstice isn't running on street/sports tires like many people seem to think. That doesn't mean that it would be impossible to drift though, I recorded this short clip to prove that almost a year ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGrqebP-xGU

Also I have one video drifting in iRacing 1 year ago... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvkFfug-nc4

And I continue saying that in RL it is not so hard (impossible?) to do a lap in a skid pad

[theirishnoob]

Originally Posted by adamkob32

Try drifting in real life on a set of Hoosier R6's like the Solstice has in iRacing, it doesn't work. Race tires snap and are hard to catch in a slide. It's the same as trying to drift one of the GTR's in LFS, very very difficult.

I can't wait to try out the new model. I haven't run LFS in a long while. This is a very anticipated update for me!

--Adam

You set up a touring style gtr car for drifting in real life- then come back to me and ill answer your question.

[dawesdust_12]

Originally Posted by theirishnoob

You set up a touring style gtr car for drifting in real life- then come back to me and ill answer your question.

Why? Your brain is filled with air anyways, so I think him (and everyone) is better off without your answer except for absolute lulz.

[legoflamb]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

As an example of the discussion from post #659 onwards (it's on wet conditions):

Minute 17:25 -> http://videos.streetfire.net/video/T...-II_205713.htm

From the looks of it that is a video of (as a driver) incompetence. He most likely would not have been able to react quickly enough even if it was dry. This video only show an example of a horrible driver in wet conditions.

[Whiskey]

yeah, but it's an example of what tristan was talking

[tristancliffe]

I can't be bothered to let it load all that, and I don't even know your link referred to me as I didn't know what post 659 onwards was about.

[legoflamb]

Originally Posted by carey

That’s the mayor of London (elected purely for this reason).

I know who he is, they mention it in the episode, and I don't care how/why he was elected. I'm just saying he is very poor at driving in the rain.

[legoflamb]

Originally Posted by carey

That's kinda the point though, they have celebrity guests to basically laugh at them, although some turn out to be pretty quick (JK, Simon Cowell, that guy from grand designs) and they have a separate board for F1 drivers.

I know I watch the show. My original point that I was making was that the video was not a good example of how a car should react in the rain.

[aroX123]

Maybe it is nothing wrong with the tires? maybe it is something wrong with the tracks !

[Whiskey]

how could be a problem on the track???? thats the same as changing the overall grip, wich Scawen said didn't solve any problem

the only thing a track provide is an excellente surface, without bumps, variable level of grip, etc But this is not the actual problem

[tenmantaylor]

Ive been around LFS since the very first demo and each successive physics update improved the game IMO as I was always most interested in the racing and managing the fuel and tyres etc.

Ive gone away from LFS in the last year because of lack of updates and have been focusing on rFactor in the FSR World Championship league. Only problem with FSR is the lack of pickup races (none) Since getting my G25 I came back to LFS for a bit pickup racing and absolutely loved battling with 30 guys on the fox junkies server. Great for honing wheel to wheel skills. That is the core strength of LFS. Ive never driven an online sim with such close clean, competetive pickup races with the same amount of drivers. Thats the thing that will keep me as a customer.

FWIW I dont think working for months on a physics only update is a good idea, I think Scawen should spend longer creating or chasing some more licensed content (cars and tracks) and incorporate the new physics all together in an S3 that is another pay update.

[GTJames]

So how do I get my hands on the new physics update, I havn't been on LFS.net for a while.

[boothy]

By bothering to read the first post in this thread or lfs.net more carefully.

[ScoobRX]

Originally Posted by GTJames

So how do I get my hands on the new physics update, I havn't been on LFS.net for a while.

It's not out yet, you have to wait and then you can download it on the lfs site as you would with any other new patch.

[GTJames]

Yep thought I'd get that reaction cheers. Just wanted check first

[Flame CZE]

Originally Posted by ScoobRX

It's not out yet, you have to wait and then you can download it on the lfs site as you would with any other new patch.

...or use the auto-download online