The online racing simulator
Black-flag suggestion
(16 posts, started )
Black-flag suggestion
Hey, I was thinking about a black-flag suggestion, well, 2 suggestions.

1) To stop scoring a certain car and force it back to the pitlane, and hold it there in the pit garage

and 2) Graduated black-flag levels, so you could have it as it is now when it spectates people, or there could be a lesser one that can be used to penalise drivers.

DK
I totaly agree, we need some sort of black flags, punishment system. But it`s not easy to implent, because it could end up beeing over sensetive, and if there was a totaly normal racing accident both cars gets black flagged and gets forced to spec or pit :/
But with some work, a system that can at some...strange point understand whats wrecking and whats an accident, then it would work.

Maybe a "xxx voted to black flag xxx", and with half of the field to agree - pit or spec mode the rest of the race.
Quote from The Very End :I totaly agree, we need some sort of black flags, punishment system. But it`s not easy to implent, because it could end up beeing over sensetive, and if there was a totaly normal racing accident both cars gets black flagged and gets forced to spec or pit :/
But with some work, a system that can at some...strange point understand whats wrecking and whats an accident, then it would work.

Maybe a "xxx voted to black flag xxx", and with half of the field to agree - pit or spec mode the rest of the race.

Agreed, I wasn't meaning that it'd be automated, There'd have to be at least 2 admins there as a failsafe mechanism, the 2 would prevent a rogue admin black-flagging everyone, It would work something like this

Driver A wrecks driver B and shrugs it off as a 'racing incident'
Driver B complains, and the admins look at the replay, they see the wrecking, and both vote to black-flag him. The black-flag message (from a completed vote) would be relayed in a similar way to the blue and yellow flag messages, along with a message like 'pit within x laps', if the driver didn't do that, then he/she'd be sent to spectate or forced to pit.

Or like this:

There is a major T1 crash and half the field knows who caused it, the black-flag vote is cast and that driver is black-flagged. The admins would have the final say though.

(Sorry if my post's not making much sense...)

DK
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(speedway) DELETED by speedway
#4 - nikka
Quote from DieKolkrabe :Agreed, I wasn't meaning that it'd be automated

Well, if it is supposed to be controlled by an admin (or two..), then why just don't use the /p_?? command to give a penalty, or /spectate to spectate him? Or ban or kick him as speedway said.
There is black flag in real life so lfs must have it (or black flag become a bug of the real life )

But there is a problem: As said before the 2 admin system won't work. Plus it's quiet rare when you got lot off admin on the server AND if they're on the server it's to race not to rules it.

So let's forget this method. The second one is the vote system. Cool idea, quiet easy to implement I guess since there is already a vote system but here is the problem: only the few people badly involved in the crash and/or pissed off by a reckless driver will vote. Each time I play lfs and there is a kick/ban vote it take AGES to get it completed. And most of the time it's never completed ...

Example:

XXX voted to kick/ban/black flag YYY [1/??]
ZZZ voted to kick/ban/black flag YYY [2/??]
Vote canceled


Then loop to the first line of the example ...

It's totaly understandable that people who are racing would rather focus on the track instead of reading the chat box (full of swairing/accusation between involved drivers before the begining of the vote). Another issue is that people are just pressing 1 without knowing what was realy done, just to get rid of the situation and be able to continue his/her race peacefully. It's why, IRL, there is people (who don't take part to the race) who decide in place who is the driver to blame instead of the drivers in the race.

Now loop back to the "2 Admins" solution ...
#6 - Gunn
The vast majority of online racers do not understand common rules of racing, how can you expect them to make a ruling on such a harsh penalty as a black flag? You might as well just vote to kick them since their race will be over if you black flag them anyway.
#7 - Woz
I would like a black flag for anyone that cuts a corner (Does not leave 2 wheels on the track through the corner) then goes on to to be the fastest that lap or gains a position while they are "off road".
black flags for cars that are very severely damaged but continue to try and race would be easy to do i imagine, and useful in removing some of the mobile chicanes that seem to prevail in the back markers
Why dont we have a black flag with the orange disc for damage? There are so many people I know who just keep going after a big crash. It's very annoying cause they go about 20 MPH and almost constantly misses the turns.
I think a Black Flag system is needed. I think any kind of automated system would be better than nothing. Sure there are grey areas but some situations are just blatant, (some have been mentioned already). It cant be hard for example to Black flag someone who rear ends someone in a corner by more than x mph, as long as the slower person is doing say 90%+ of the average corner speed for that car on that track. All these things are just equations, surely something can be sorted out.

I for one am fed up with being pushed off by people that have no race sense and just drive full speed irrespective of who is around them.

Edited to add-

Just thought of a better solution:

Problems as I see them with regard to behaviour:

a) Person trys to drive "through you" either on a straight or round corner because they believe they have a devine right to pass, (usually because of some perceived superiority over the driver in front).

b) Person that runs you off the road whilst you are beside them on the straight either when you or they are passing, (intentionally or because they dont use their W and E button).

The solutions as i see them:

a) can be resolved by implementing black flag if contact is made and following driver is NOT either coasting or braking. In other words it´s obvious that the following driver has no intention of slowing due to the driver in front.

b) can be resolved if one driver is holding a straight line (as deduced by steering angle) and the other turns in to them (again as deduced by steering angle), on straight sections of the track (to be decided by the programmer). Contact will need to be for longer than say 1 second etc

The result:
1) an automatic black flag is shown. The driver must pit at the next opportunity, or will be spectated.

2) If the driver is black flagged more than twice in one session (irrespective of whether they pit or not), they get kicked from the server.

3) A second kick for being black flagged within a 12 hour period will get them a 24 hour ban from the server.

3) A second implementation of a ban (following rules above) gets them permanently banned pending a conversation with the admins.

Thoughts?
Quote from gezmoor :b) Person that runs you off the road whilst you are beside them on the straight either when you or they are passing, (intentionally or because they dont use their W and E button).

theoretically the crasher could turn into someone and then straighten out the wheel before they touch, which would beat the system because it doesn't "look" like he was trying to crash him at impact. while a system like this would be nice to have, i just don't think its possible to get a computer to correctly judge a driver's intentions.
Quote from UncleBenny :theoretically the crasher could turn into someone and then straighten out the wheel before they touch, which would beat the system because it doesn't "look" like he was trying to crash him at impact. while a system like this would be nice to have, i just don't think its possible to get a computer to correctly judge a driver's intentions.

Good point. Presumably however the system knows the course the driver took and would be able to see that they had swerved over to one side even if the actual steering input was neutral at the time of impact??

I think you´re right though, the hard part would be the ability of the programming to judge the drivers intentions.
The argument about trying to detect intentional contact against accidental has been discussed to death and is impossible to get 100% right without an actual person sitting watching a replay. And obviously that's no use in 5 or 10 lap public server races.

Black flags would be good for people who finish a race without completing a drive-through or stop-go, but without actually kicking them off the server or banning them, by the time they're disqualified the next race is about to start anyway so it's irrelevant.
A lap limit on these penalties might help, but since this isn't a realistic rule a lot of people would object to it.

Causing too many yellow flags? I guess that might work. Disqualification for reckless driving sort of makes sense. And storing black flag counts on LFSW and having a server setting to disallow drivers with a certain number could be a way of keeping your server clean.

But until a decent method (and I've suggested one in the past that would get as close as any non-human is likely to get) can be added, the really serious ones can't be monitored.
Quote from Dajmin :is impossible to get 100% right without an actual person sitting watching a replay.

And even then you'll probably ask 10 different people and get 4 or 5 different answers. It's like the Blame Game someone did a while back - not one was 100% vote for one driver! A computer can't do that yet, and neither can a single human.

We need "Ban by Jury". Each race watched by a randomly selected panel of jurers (please stand up if you know or have had contact with any of the drivers/jurers please), and they will decide your fate.

But before the final vote we have "Phone Vote" Call 0680 88664422 and tell us who you want to show the black flag t... oh the race has finished.
I say its a nice idea

It should get people to be more aware of their suroundings
Quote from dynofiend :black flags for cars that are very severely damaged but continue to try and race would be easy to do i imagine, and useful in removing some of the mobile chicanes that seem to prevail in the back markers

That's a black and orange flag, actually. They'll only be useful when the damage is upgraded more.

Some things cannot be done effectively by an automated system. Blue flags would be impossible. A car that is about to lap another that has made a mistake could both be lapping at a similar pace. Blue flag does NOT mean spectate/brake or ease off on a straight/take a stupid line. It DOES mean not to close the door on them or make any defensive manouvre.

However, pit lane lines and pit lane speed limit could be done. Yellow flag speeding (if we have a yellow flag speed limit, which would be a sensible idea), overtaking under yellow flags and many SC rules (if we get an AI driven SC) could be autoenforced.

Anything else, even if coded by Chuck Norris, would not work.

Black-flag suggestion
(16 posts, started )
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