Before you all reach for your torches and pitchforks, let me say I'm suggesting this for the benefit of our good and talented non-wheel racers.

I believe the root of the rather heated debate in the General Discussion forum about Wheel vs. Keyboard/Mouse stems from the issue of car control. Without analog input, keyboard drivers in particular are at a disadvantage with regards to control of the 'torquier' cars like FO8 and FOX.

So what I propose is the simple addition of options for traction control and anti-lock brakes for the 'racing cars' only. The 'road cars' would not have these features as they are less of a handful to manage.

This would not be in any way like the full-blown wuss aids featured in other games that magically make cars more stable and almost arcadish in behavior. The kind of options we loathe with a passion.

This would be a realistic and professional application of 2 common, real-life electronic management devices. And of course, TC and ABS could be disabled by the server admin to provide a more 'honorable' challenge for those that seek it.

But wouldn't it be wonderful if we could help everyone get the most out of the cars and tracks offered in LFS. Hell not even us wheelers can control the FO8 100% of the time. With traction control on that car we could use it on more than just the oval and actually focus more on racing and less on keeping the damn thing pointed in the right direction. And our friends on keyboards and mice could join us as many right now avoid the high-HP cars due to control issues.

Before you all condemn this idea outright, just stop and think for a second. Just maybe instead of dumbing down the competition, we might actually raise it up by doing this.

Just a thought.

id prefer my idea of adding a slow and fast input key for throttle and brakes (like the slow and fast steering keys for keyboarders)
that way keyboarders and mouse drivers could speed out of a corner and brake for one with soft throttle/brake inputs without having to tap a button at superhuman speeds (its lfs after all ... not summer games)

Yea, on most cars actually it would be much appriciated.

Being on the topic of car assists, I would like to bring another point of view.
That is something that should be reviewed in LFS I believe. Instead of having things like the assists being actually assists ingame, I believe it would be better to have them as actually car assists, as they are in real life. So rather than a throttle assist, have a real TC and instead of brake assist, have an actual ABS system implemented.
That said, I would like to see those things implemented on a per-car basis. Should a FO8 have ABS, no TC and a sequential gearbox, EVERYONE would drive it sequential with no TC and you would only be left with the option to disengage the ABS.
Should a FXO be available standard with all assists, you could choose which transmission to use and have the option to turn assists off.
On the same line of thoughts, I would see the driving side per-car too. So if the FZ5 is right hand drive, everyone drives it (and probably the FZR too) on the right side.

I believe that would work very well, could maybe even help balancing the classes a bit. For example the FXR could be made the only of the 3 GTR cars available with a sequential tranny, giving it a shifting time advantage that the other 2 cars don't have.

I like those ideas Nick, but don't think the actual car assists should take over for the controller assists we have now.... because those are controller assists which are necessary for most people.

But with all the controller assists off, it would be really nice to see what ABS or traction control could do.

I agree with the driver-side position too.

I would like to see TC and the like replace the current aids but I would like these to be realistic so that they make you SLOWER and limit your performance in the same way as they do in real life.

So TC should apply brakes to problem wheels and cut/limit the power from the engine to help with traction. If the result of adding these is to make people faster then they need to be made more aggressive so that people using them are slower.

LFS is about driver skill, not letting a computer drive for you.

Quote from Nick_ll :

Should a FXO be available standard with all assists, you could choose which transmission to use and have the option to turn assists off.

You are kidding, the FXO and FXR are probably the easiest cars in their catagories to drive.

Quote from Stellios :

You are kidding, the FXO and FXR are probably the easiest cars in their catagories to drive.

if we can have TC and ABS, let the TC be at different levels ie like a sports mode button so it gives you more freedom. Just an idea

We do have brake and throttle help you know. Brake helps works well, so no need for ABS. Throttle help isn't so great, if that became more of a useful aid we wouldn't need anything like TC. The aid should make it easier to drive but at the same time definately be slower than not using it. Only the very best drivers would be quicker with a good TC system. Especially if once we get rain.

The brake assist is 1 channel abs. Not usefull at all. True ABS would be very useful to the late trail braker. Real abs would brake and unbrake the 1 wheel that is locked. The lfs brake assist brakes and unbrakes all 4 wheels.

I partly agree, in Maserati Trofeo Cup they use ABS and also TC is available to use if drivers prefers to use it, but is possible to turn off, ABS is not possible to turn off.

I think that NetKar had best implementation of TC and ABS, felt even bit like real thing. ABS should not be too hard to code, also TC would be quite easy, just getting it right takes more time.

Also different cars have very different ABS and TC, some are very stupid and simple where some have very good systems. New Ferrari, was it 430? Has very good TC, even advanced driver will be faster with TC on.

But this ABS and TC should be limited to only some cars that would have it in reallife.

I guess that TC and ABS should be made available on faster/racing cars. I mean, even in reality at least traction control is used.. take Fia GT, F1 (even in MotoGp) uses TC's. I think this should not be seen as an aid to leave "less fast" drivers to drive better.. it's just that when you're speaking of very fast cars with many HP's.. it's just impossible to put them all on the ground without spinning or burning tires on the long run.
As marsden1002 said, it could be implemented as a sort of "sport mode" button, maybe with different levels of use, so that the lighter use allow faster pilots to drive as fast as they can, while the stronger TC mode would allow everybody to drive the car, but not as fast as the lighter option.
I say this, just because some cars are quite hard to drive.. expecially the Formula V8. I don't know which new cars will be in S3, but seeing the addings from S1, i'd expect at least a much faster formula in future, faster than F08. What will happen with powers of 680+HPs on a light car? Without any TC i'd guess that they would be critical to be used

Why would we need TC? And especially, why in the fast classes? I mean, everyone can drive the GTRs, FOX and FO8.
Come on, you've got so phaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat wings and still can't keep it on the track?
TC will only move you off the track, because your car drives somewhere you don't want it to.

Vain

^ Lets pretend he didn't say that.
I'm with shotglass. The main appeal of LFS is how raw it's system is. That's the main secret to how it feels so realistic.
Not that I'm crediting them with being realistic sims, but Forza and GT4 may have the most realistic car handling models around. Big budgets allow big research. The catch is that each of these games has assists built-in to aid the driver. Thing such as ABS and TC (GT4) and speed dependant steering (Forza) allow the use of controllers, these are what you are asking for. You are asking for LFS to stoop to GT4 level.

In my opinion, if you start introducing all these driver assists, then LFS will be no different a game to others, its part of what keeps LFS unique, and its nice to see drivers having to use skill rather than assists to drive all the time.

Its only a throttle and brake, and as long as you control your pedals you dont realy need ABS etc. As for keyboard users, its a sim, and if you can set fast lap times on a keyboard (TOCA style) then it loses the sim factor.

I know real racers use TC, ABS and all the rest, but its so muh more fun having to drive without all that rubbish.

Well, the cars in LFS arent cars in RL.

I have always wondered that do most of the keyboard/mouse drivers use brake/throttle assists? I have few times asked about this and they said they don't. I just can't understand how some keyboarders could be so fast with cars like FZR without those assists. Actually I don't know how much those assists even help because I've never tested.

I use Mouse for steering, everything else is keyboard. No assists here!

Quote from J_Matrix :

Fia GT, F1 (even in MotoGp) uses TC's. I think this should not be seen as an aid to leave "less fast" drivers to drive better.. it's just that when you're speaking of very fast cars with many HP's.. it's just impossible to put them all on the ground without spinning or burning tires on the long run.

Obviously you ignore all of motor racing history when you say that.

Take F1 in the 80's. 1400hp (in qually) turbo engines with little or no lag control. Yet they did 80 laps at a time in them. Just because modern F1 drivers are too pansy to drive without TC (indeed, many of them can't as you can see when they fail) doesn't mean LFS needs to become more pansy too.

There is and always has been a feature to change the rate at which keyboard buttons affect analog inputs such as throttle, brake and clutch. Button control rate under the Controls menu is the setting to change. The higher the value, the more digital the response. Similarly, the lower the value, the more analog the response. It applies to all at once, I don't think it is currently possible to set each individually.

Note that if you reduce the BCR and use manual clutch you may experience problems avoiding flatshifting as it takes absolutely ages for the clutch to move the full range.

I think ABS and TC and even stability control should be implemented. LFS is a simulator is it not?

In real life many people do have the problem of ABS intervening in an autocross or whatever. ABS can be used as a tool almost, any person and even the controller assist called "brake help" or whatever CAN modulate the brakes on their own. ABS though, can modulate EACH INDIVIDUAL brake.

LFS is about realism right? In a car like the FOX, of course not! Put ABS on that and I'll be pissed. A car like the XF GTi or the GT, FZ350, etc. on cars like that, in real life I bet you they come with ABS and traction controll.

Sure, it takes some of the fun out of it, so just like in real life, have an option called "pull the ABS fuse" and allow the LFSer to disable it, or even allow an option for certain servers to make that mandatory, just like they can make it mandatory what car you drive.

Same with traction and stability controll.

Now, I wouldn't expect the XFGTI to have either of these, but something like the GT Turbo or the FZ350 or whatever. And of COURSE NOT the GTR's.

Do you get where I am going with this? Making this sim as much of a "SIM" as possible.

I also think the torque converter effect should be added as well, get rid of the automatic shifting controller assist. Can't shift your own gears? Tough..you are struck with a REAL automatic. Can't shift your own gears? TOUGH! YOU CAN'T DRIVE THE FO8! And I mean a REAL automatic that upshifts on you when you lift and everything. Have a rental car that is an automatic and you take it to an autocross, does God suddenly make it manual and shift the gears and clutch for you? NO!

Hell, even Need For Speed HOT Pursuit 2 got the torque converter effect down, the cars drove like magic carpets, but at least the automatic was more realistic than LFS.

For those of us who use LFS with the normal cars and in autocrosses and such, I would like to see this get as real as posible. Afterall it is a SIM isn't it?

I can't really see any reason why NOT to implement features that make a SIM more of a SIM.

Quote from Stellios :

I know real racers use TC, ABS and all the rest, but its so muh more fun having to drive without all that rubbish.

Definitely why I think servers should have the choice of forcing users to use or not use the assists. Just like they can force what cars you drive and don't drive.

i dont think they should force you to use them or not use them; it should be a choice.. just like being able to take off ABS and turning off TC in a car.. same thing, so why should someone be forced to use it?

Sorry I take the view that LFS is a simulation of reality and therefore no extra aids should be added. If you can't control some cars then drive the easier ones.

Then there is the magic question: should one be able to change the setting of a TCS/ABS/ESP? Maybe if we get some 900hp prototype beasts I would be ready to allow these systems into them, but with enough options to make the setting up as realistic and hard as it is in real life.

And if you allow them in LFS the faster people would probably turn them off anyway. ABS is not better than good threshold braking done by good driver and TCS won't teach you the right driving technic. ESP...no

So for realism they should be available for some cars possibly with the option to turn them off.

In the end it is all about what kind of racing the devs want the cars to show. In this sense the NOS, TCS, ESP, ABS, rbyz, hks can some day be installled into your favourite XRT/UF1/FZR