Quote from AndroidXP :

It doesn't engage linearly - it has a very distinct bite point at the top/end of LFS' ingame clutch travel. Most of the bottom travel does nothing. By applying a DxTweak/calibration fix the clutch becomes very real IMO.

The point is that we shouldn't have to use DXTweak or calibration lock at all. While it may or may not engage linearly (I don't think it's possible to tell for certain without elevating the rear wheels), LFS still requires the clutch to be fully (or nearly so) depressed before it completely disengages, which is not the way it works in the real world. We should be able to successfully shift with just a dab of the clutch, without resorting to locking the calibration.

Any properly adjusted road car clutch IRL should not be engaging when it's almost let out; if that's the case it's worn and needs adjustment. There shouldn't be much travel before the bite point. Some, yes, but not much and there should be much more travel after the clutch is engaged compared to before!

Quote from JTbo :

Tested with RB4 at Blackwood, clutch heats at reverse and starts slipping just same way as in 1st gear.

Used paddle shift + auto clutch.

So no confirmation based on this test. Don't know which car he did use?

Odd. This was in the FBM.

As I said, I was using autoclutch. Once the clutch was already slipping (like, barely moving if I used the gas in forward gear) I shifted to reverse and could drive perfectly well.

I'll test it some more.

Quote from ghost racer :

I noticed on manual with no shift help you cant pull it out of gear anymore without using the clutch. You can easily do this in real life, it's how I pull my car out of gear actually. But it seems to hang up since this new patch.

I just tried this with X30 and it works exactly like previous patches. I did 2 laps without using the clutch for shifting in the XRT.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Any properly adjusted road car clutch IRL should not be engaging when it's almost let out; if that's the case it's worn and needs adjustment. There shouldn't be much travel before the bite point. Some, yes, but not much and there should be much more travel after the clutch is engaged compared to before!

Let's say you've got a clutch pedal that moves 6" from completely depressed (disengaged) to completely out (engaged). If we start with the pedal all the way to the floor (clutch is disengaged, power is not transmitted from engine to tranny) we should have an inch or so of free play where the clutch doesn't engage. The same is true at the top of clutch travel (maybe not for race cars, but for road cars). The top inch or so of clutch pedal travel is free play and has no real effect. So that leaves us with the 4" in the middle. While the clutch might do most of it's grabbing in the first half of those four inches, if we hold the clutch in the exact center (the 3" mark) it will still slip. This slip is what we're interested in for shifting. We only need to depress the clutch enough for it to start slipping to be able to shift. So, in our theoretical 6" of pedal travel, we should only have to press in the clutch 2-3" (1/3 to 1/2 of total travel) before it slips enough to allow us to change gears.

The point being that you should never have to press the clutch all the way to the floor before you can shift. You CAN do that, but it shouldn't be required. The way that LFS works now (X10), you must press the clutch all the way to the floor (or nearly so) before you can shift, unless you use the DXTweak/calibration lock workaround.

I have no way to test this in game to see exactly how much "grip" the clutch has at different points in its travel, or whether or not it is completely linear. I only know that from my feel and past experience, LFS doesn't model dead zones at either end of the clutch travel (or else they are very small), and the clutch feels very linear. If someone can show hard data to prove me wrong, I'd love to be proven wrong.

No, I think you're right I misunderstood your previous post. I still think you should need to depress it more than half, based on what you said (which is true), "some clutch slip" isn't enough to let synchros bring the shaft speeds together - shifting without almost totally disengaging the clutch is very hard on synchromesh since they are fighting ANY friction from the clutch. So if that gets modelled, then synchros need to be able to wear out during a long race.

Cue-ball got it. If your clutch is set up properly, your friction point is in the center of the travel. On my car (lets say it is 6" of travel) push the clutch down 2 inches, nothing happens. Let it up 2 inches from the bottom, nothing happens. Let it up another inch and if your foot is not on the throttle, the engine will die very quickly.

On my sisters truck (with a clutch that is set up totally wrong and I need to fix it) the friction point is at the top. Push the clutch in 2 inches and it is disengaged. It is just dead in the rest of the 4 inches.

With LFS my clutch pedal moves about 3 inches (damn logitech can't get it right )I let it up half way and it starts to bite and the rest of the travel is made wrong. I can be floored and push the clutch down just a little (about a half inch) and it slips all the way through until it disengages about half way down.

I was in that calibration window and watching the clutch axis in the calibration window then looking at the clutch bar. The calibration window sees my foot coming half way up the pedal before the regular blue clutch bar showed movement.

I did some more testing last night on the clutch slipping/heating/clutch pedal travel thing.

I found that I could make shifts in the XRG and LX4 that did not burn up the clutch. It basically comes down to making very sure that the clutch is all the way out before putting any pressure on the gas pedal and then carefully rolling the gas in. It is slower shifting this way and it might be realistic... but I am not too sure about that.

If you apply any gas at all prior to having the clutch all the way out, the clutch will slip and generate heat. This would be normal except that the slipping phase seems to last too long and heats the clutch much more than you would expect.

The other thing I noticed, and this is where I could be completely wrong, but I noticed that the heat generation was really random. On some stints, the clutch heated up right away and became undrivable.
In other cases, I could not get the clutch to heat up even when being really aggressive on the shifts and applying throttle more quickly. This part has me a bit concerned.

Quote from zipper (cze) :

And second bug, if you have puncture and goes into box, you get new tyre, but unfortunately it has no air inside

I had this problem today with version X31.
After pitting and changing the front tyres, the tyre that blew up wasn't "completly changed"... :P

Here's the screenshot:

Quote from Cue-Ball :

The point being that you should never have to press the clutch all the way to the floor before you can shift. You CAN do that, but it shouldn't be required. The way that LFS works now (X10), you must press the clutch all the way to the floor (or nearly so) before you can shift, unless you use the DXTweak/calibration lock workaround.

The DXTweak solution to this is the best. I have used that technique for years now and not looked back because the LFS clutch always needed to be fully pressed in, which as we know is just wrong.

Quote from Woz :

The DXTweak solution to this is the best. I have used that technique for years now and not looked back because the LFS clutch always needed to be fully pressed in, which as we know is just wrong.

Well, i think the best solution would be if the clutch were modeled properly in the first place, so that DXTweak wasn't needed.

I tried it out, and it seems that we can still shift without using the clutch, by just rev matching.

It doesn't work in "sequential operation of H-pattern", only for shifters. Fair enough, i have a feeling santa will bring me a G25.

Quote from Not Sure :

I tried it out, and it seems that we can still shift without using the clutch, by just rev matching.

It doesn't work in "sequential operation of H-pattern", only for shifters. Fair enough, i have a feeling santa will bring me a G25.

Is there a way you can trick it to do that???? I lost some realism

well, the thing I can think of that needs to be fixed more than the rest is the clutch. The cars act like they have motorcycle clutches on them. When you shift a car in real life the clutch does not continue slipping after you have let it all the way out unless you have a really really cheap clutch.

Currently in LFS with a new clutch that is still cold slips like hell when you shift. Even my car with a clutch that is a bit too small grabs harder than anything in LFS. When I let my clutch out, I expect it to grab right then and there, not slip a half second extra. If you keep doing shifts like that it will eventually start slipping as it heats up.

agree 100%

Quote from Piekokas :

I had this problem today with version X31.
After pitting and changing the front tyres, the tyre that blew up wasn't "completly changed"... :P

Here's the screenshot:

LOL THATS FUNNNNYYY.

About the clutch, and where it 'bites'. That is really a function of the applied torque. Think of the clutch as a brake system. If there's little torque applied, the biting point will be further in, because the pedal really control how much torque the clutch can transfer. That also sort of confirm Cue-Ball's observation about the first 1" of depression not really doing anything. Well, it does. You are reducing the POTENTIAL torque transfer, or preload, but the engine is not putting out enough torque for the clutch to start slipping. And that's where I think Scawen might have got it wrong. There is just not enough preload in the clutch.
Let's analyze:

Assume the clutch is linear in operation, and the max torque it can transfer without slipping is 300Nm. The engine we are using can supply 200Nm. So the clutch would be fully engaged at 2/3 travel, correct?

There's also the element of static and dynamic friction, which might be part of the issue here, the transition from dynamic to static which in most cars will feel like a 'jolt'.
The static friction is higher than the dynamic friction, so maybe Scawen took the staticv friction number when calculating the max torque the clutch can hold when matching the clutch to the engine, and forgot about the lower dynamic friction? Just throwing out ideas here...

Personally I think the clutches need to be 'stiffer' (more preload) so they lock properly when fully lifted.

Hello,

I noticed some weird things happen when you shutoff your engine (turn off ignition), both graphical as functional.

The car's horn stops working, it's only possible to horn if you keep moving your throttle pedal.

The headlights stay on when you press and hold the headlight key, then turn off ignition and release the headlight key.

And if you flip your car on it's roof, and your wheels are still rotating, you shut off ignition, and the wheel stop to rotate after 3 seconds or so, (visible in chase cam).
When you press the throttle with the engine still shut off they start rotating again.
If you then turn on the ignition, release clutch, the wheels will pick up there spinning speed again.

I could post a replay but it was very easy to replicate and tested by my friend Soref and me

Regards and much respect,
Bas W

Sidenote; I like to see the mods delete or move all posts that do NOT concern bugs, cause i spent like 30 mins looking if my bug was already mentioned in here. Also I don't think the dev's will like to look at so many crap before they see any useful reports.

About the black tyre after pitstop thingy:

I just tested, and the tyres are only inflated if Damage Repair is set to "Yes". If it's set to "no", you'll get a new tyre, but it's not inflated, ie, black. A bug surely? I think tyres would normally be inflated before they are put on a car

Quote from skstibi :

well, the thing I can think of that needs to be fixed more than the rest is the clutch. The cars act like they have motorcycle clutches on them. When you shift a car in real life the clutch does not continue slipping after you have let it all the way out unless you have a really really cheap clutch.

Currently in LFS with a new clutch that is still cold slips like hell when you shift. Even my car with a clutch that is a bit too small grabs harder than anything in LFS. When I let my clutch out, I expect it to grab right then and there, not slip a half second extra. If you keep doing shifts like that it will eventually start slipping as it heats up.

+1.

Otherwise, I think I might have found a bug:

Start your car, just roll out at any speed you want. Then, turn off the ignition, put you in neutral, and wait for the engine to come to 0 RPM (it might take a while, be sure to have space in front of you).

Then, without touching any pedal, enter a gear. The gear will mesh, even if you don't press the clutch!

I'm using an H-shifter and I tested this on the LX6.

Trying the fxo, I'm still getting better results with locked diff and no ARB at the back (compare to clutch pack and any stiffness of rear ARB), is that supposed to act like this?

Quote from EeekiE :

Does anyone else find it hard to get the car rolling from a tame 3k rpm start? It's as if the engine is very very light or has no flywheel. It's feels to me like some paperclip crankshafted engine which has no inertia or inner friction to deal with lol.
Clutch heating and stalling are not affecting my racing at all. I get a pixel or so of clutch heating for the entire race using all manual controls, but it invariably means pulling off in 1st gear at near 6-7k just to stop the engine from being utterly swamped.

It seems if you hold it at 3k rpm, you need the smallest crack of throttle opening, which when you apply the small touch of clutch causes it to swamp down massively needing more throttle. The contrast of balance between the two pedals just feels massive. Even in the road cars.
My daily driver has an extensively lightend small capacity bottom-end and fly-wheel, along with a lot of supercharger drag, and a near on/off cerrametallic 3 paddle clutch and it's nowhere NEAR as bad as LFS.

Like I said it's not affecting my race at all, it's just now that stalling is a factor, and clutch wear is a factor, it may be something to look in to as a 2.5/3k brisk pull off in even the tamest of LFS's road cars seems to be a trick of timing, rather than just being sensitive.

10,000% right.

I wasn't very sure about where to post this. But much like the hilarious videos posted in the general forum, if you are driving with the automatic gears (I was testing out the demo on a fresh install on a work laptop, as I was too impatient to wait to get home),

If you melt the clutch, the computer "changing gear for you" doesn't know the difference between driving the wheels, and burning the clutch.

This may mean that the AI drivers won't be able to baby the clutch after a serious spin?

Sorry if this is in the wrong place/already somewhere I couldn't find - I don't even mind to be honest - First time I've used auto gears in ages.

Well... i drove some laps with the updated clutch wear, and unless this will be changed to something more user friendly, i will let go LFS... I understand the rule "as real as it gets" - but remember about the FUN FACTOR!!! Devs made it more realstic (including the feature, not how it works), but now i spent almost an hour on using mainly the F word when the clutch got worn again... even in XFG... That's insane! Don't make me stick only with Richard Burns Rally!

L2drvkthxbai