<g>

Any chance of the source of those quotes? (apart from the Israeli presidents that said 'em). As I'm sure is the case with everyone else in this thread, the conversation we're having isn't limited to the forum. I'm rattling about this topic with everyone I know.

I noticed British Airways was quick onto the Beirut International Airport runway today with some aid/workers. I watched live coverage, and drew two conclusions: firstly, the British people (and British businesses hankering for some positive PR) have a great deal more empathy with the Lebanese than the British government might have communicated; secondly, the British press are irresistibly drawn to reflect it.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1220089.ece

Interesting reading, considering Labour is the "ruling" party in the UK. Blair's relationship with Bush seems to be, more than ever, one-on-one.

Quote from STROBE :

Oh? Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what Israel contributed to the world in, say, the 19th century?

Well, I should've been more specific. I didn't mean Israel really. I meant Jews. And, Israel is a jewish country. Now flame me because I didn't think before a post!

Quote :

The intrusion flights started in October 2000, just five months after the Israeli withdrawal, following Hizbollah's kidnap of three Israeli soldiers at the Shaba Farms.

Perhaps these "intrusion" flights were to find the bases?

The first quote from PM Gurion is pretty well known and I've seen it in more than one article over the years. There are many more to be found here.

The quote from Sharon is more recent and I will endeavour to find it's actual source. There are plenty here.

Both quotes were used by John Pilger in a recent article. I've found Pilger to be a decent, reliable source of information over the past few years and he's really quite uncompromising in his take on modern power structures.

Hummer, noone should be flaming you for a simple error. But this a topic many people find very important and very emotive and mistakes are often quickly seized upon. We're not talking about ricer bodykits here, people take this shit seriously

@ wheel4: Hmm.. okay, well let's clarify that WE are not talking about Jews, we're talking about the state of Israel. The religion and/or race of its majority are irrelevent to the actions of that state. When we're talking of Israel, we're talking of the political government, and the military it commands, its borders, its occupation and its oppression of people of other nations, AND its gravely concerning controlling influence in Washington.

@Hank: Thanks! I'm not so familiar with Pilger.. will get familiar PDQ!

He's pretty scathing - and imho he should be. He's one of yours too As is Robert Fisk from The Independent (also featured on info clearing house frequently), one of my favourites. He's lived in Lebanon for the last 30 years and has seen more of the horror humans can inflict on each other first-hand than any one person should ever see.

Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Seymour Hersh, Greg Palast, Uri Avnery (noted Israeli historian and commentator) are all worthy of a look too :up:

And yes hummer, the discussion is about Israel, not Jewish people. You'll find that not all Jewish people support Israel's self-proclaimed right to do whatever it wants and get away with it. Many Jews, including many in Israel, are horrified by what the Israeli government does in their name.

Quote from Hankstar :

You'll find that not all Jewish people support Israel's self-proclaimed right to do whatever it wants and get away with it.

They're called self-hating jews. People who are anti-israel are anti-jew. Including the jewish ones. If israel were not a jewish country, do you really think any of the news stations would have more than a 15min segment? Would people here be accusing israel if it weren't a jewish country?

Hummer, if you want to get into this discussion and be taken seriously you will have try a lot harder than that. Repeating that same old mythical bullshit does not qualify as a logical argument. If you'd read, and understood, this thread so far you'd realise this is a complex situation with many points of view.

The myth of the "self-hating Jew" has long been a knee-jerk reaction to any Jew who disagrees with Israel's government. It is used to shame and discredit any Jewish person who has anything to say about Israel that isn't 100% complimentary or totally sympathetic. There is a huge and important difference between disagreeing with the government of the Jewish state and being anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic. I don't like what my own government does sometimes but it doesn't make me anti-Australian. I love my country but my government seems to be doing things (like siding with the US) which are potentially harmful to Australia, and that upsets me. I also think the current political/media environment of the US today completely blurs the line between loyalty to country and loyalty to government and makes it so that anyone who is opposed to the government's policies is labelled a freedom-hater or a traitor or anti-American. I happen to think a person who stands up and disagrees with their government out of love for their country is more of a patriot than someone who blindly agrees with everything they do. As a side note you'll find that in Israel, open opposition to and criticism of the Israeli government's actions is more accepted and much more common than you might think.

You may as well say anyone disagreeing with Saudi Arabia (including Muslims) is anti-Muslim. It's a Muslim nation after all.

Some good advice here would be to start reading your own signature and stop blindly repeating the mantras of others. Stop watching NBC or FOX or Dr Phil or wherever you get your news from and you may learn there's more than Washington's point of view on world events. If the "self-hating Jew" chestnut is all you've got to contribute then you've got nothing to say. If all you have is tired cliches and propaganda soundbites, you have no argument.

Funny quote in wheel4hummer's signature, isn't it?
It's becoming funnier and funnier.

You've been even too polite, Hankstar. Congratulations also for that.

I as listening to Radio 4 this morning and the World service last night and apart from the fact the France will only send 200 peacekeepers into Lebanon which kinda reinforces my earlier comment about France not joining in (Kinda), I was interested to note that the israely Government is under investigation by the countries own judicairy over sleaze allegations along with the head of the armed forces being under investigation for corruption. I might have got the exact facts a bit wrong but I'm in the general ball park.

I can't remeber what else was said, it was late last night and I was half asleep this morning and I don't have time to run through Aunties website to check the facts. So I will just have to rely on sweeping generalisations and half baked comments. A bit like the governments in question.

Just read haaretz.com frontpage and you'll find out some interesting facts. Read the frontpages of the previous days and you'll find out more about the current situation in Israel.
I'd like to read Yedioth Ahronoth too, but I'm unable to. In fact I may be even unable to spell it correctly

Obviously, when I'm talking about the frontpages, I'm not saying that I don't read the interesting material I find: I just think that the
frontpages are enough to establish the current mood perceived by a single media, although the English edition differs slightly (and sometimes more than slightly) from the Hebrew edition.

Quote from Hankstar :

I happen to think a person who stands up and disagrees with their government out of love for their country is more of a patriot than someone who blindly agrees with everything they do.

Then I'm an Israeli patriot, because I highly disagree with what they are doing. If I were a leader of israel, I would definitly NOT accept this so called "cease fire".

There's an interesting quote that is fairly well known, perhaps this applies to you?

Quote :

The only thing a nonconformist hates more that a conformist is another nonconformist who doesnt conform to the prevailent standard of nonconformity.

Wheel, so sorry bud, but if you'd said "point taken" and left it at that, you'd have been able to walk away with at least some credibility.

I can only see two possibilities at the moment: 1) you've read and misunderstood the reality/actuality of the mid-east situation; 2) you understand what Israel has done to the Lebanese, and are annoyed at them for temporarily stopping, and comprehend and support what Israel is doing on the West Bank.

If #2 carries, there are no words for you that I can repeat on a civilised forum. I hope it's not #2 but if it is, I hope with all my heart there aren't many others like you.

Quote from SamH :

2) you understand what Israel has done to the Lebanese, and are annoyed at them for temporarily stopping, and comprehend and support what Israel is doing on the West Bank.

Well, basically yes! Israel gave about a day or more for civillians to leave Lebanon. They dropped flyers. And then, they agreed to give another 48 hours for the Lebanese civilians to escape. Then they carried on. During the current "ceasefire", Hezbollah is telling the people of Lebanon that they "won". I don't understand why a bunch of lebanese people are coming back. And then, I saw on CNN, these "civilians" waving Hezbollah flags. Earlier in this thread, there was a video where you could see the Hezbollah fighters escaping in a UN ambulance. Shouldn't the UN be there to rescue those Lebanese who decided to endanger there family? Instead of helping the Hezbollah people escape from Israeli fire?

Wow! Quite amazing. I'm in awe.

Eh... uh... ah... erm. I'm baffled too. All I can say is I'm a fan of a particular orwellian thesis:


In our age there is no such thing as "keeping out of politics." All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer. I should expect to find -- this is a guess which I have not sufficient knowledge to verify -- that the German, Russian and Italian languages have all deteriorated in the last ten or fifteen years, as a result of dictatorship.

George Orwell, Politics and the English Language, 1946

I'll just repeat your signature here and leave it at that "You have a brain you know - use it!"

Quote from Krane :

I'll just repeat your signature here and leave it at that "You have a brain you know - use it!"

So, because I disagree with you, that makes me stupid or an idiot?

Quote from wheel4hummer :

So, because I disagree with you, that makes me stupid or an idiot?

Nobody else has taken it up, so I may as well. It's not that you disagree. It's that we're all at a loss to understand on what basis you disagree.

There is information in this thread which, I firmly believe, absolutely assures that any REASONABLE-thinking person would NOT perpetuate the ideas that you do.. but you do. We just don't get it. We don't get how you can have this information available to you, and continue to believe the things you do.

Given that we KNOW that Israel has an influence on the US media that NO government should have over ANY media service - ESPECIALLY a FOREIGN government - we understand that there are people in the US that are taken in.. but you've an opportunity to break out of it, because you've access to impartial, independent information.. and you don't.

That's the bit we don't get.. we're baffled, stunned, gobsmacked, and wishing, for YOUR sake that you would begin to THINK.

Well, I have been thinking about what's going on. I just don't see why so many people hate Israel, and the Jews. Hezbollah is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. I will now stop posting in this thread, because I just don't give a sh*t anymore. I know where I stand, but I have learned to never voice my opinion over the internet. If you are so concerned with Israel "having control" over the US media, how come you are not concerned with the several hundred thousand illigal immigrants living in the US? I seriously do not understand why people hate Israel so much. I think it is because when people see a country that has more money, and new technology, they think that it is easier to attack that country. Maybe instead of becomming terrorists, the people of Hezbollah can stop the violence. Last I checked, there is no Israeli military bases in Haifa (That's where Hezbollah repeatedly targets). So, that is my last post. Goodbye, and there is no need to reply to me. I am voicing my opinion, and if you don't like it, too damn bad.

Quote from SamH :

Nobody else has taken it up, so I may as well.

I had already given up. I'm sorry for this Sam, and respect is due to your choice, but given the premises (and tons of them) I realised that there's nothing I could do or say in such cases.

You weren't wrong to give up. If I'd had any sense, I would have done too. Something in me drives me to pursue a lost cause off a cliff, across an ocean, up a volcano and into oblivion. So to speak.

I just can't help myself sometimes

I don't think anyone here hates Israel or Jews. They hate double standards, hypocrisy and - for the record - blind stupidity.

Noone's defending Hezbollah's decision to attack Israeli civilians, that would be unconscionable. Noone here has a problem with Israelis or Jews. You're right when you say Haifa had no military bases there. It just happened to be in range of Hezbollah's rockets.

On that note, there were no Hezbollah at the UN post that was destroyed, no Hezbollah in the convoys of civilians that have been bombed, none in the ambulances that have destroyed from the air. There were none in the dozens of Lebanese villages, suburbs, apartment blocks that have been smart-bombed. The body count stands at over 1300 Lebanese (90% civilian, not Hezbollah) to perhaps 100 Israeli people. If that's a fair response to the capture of two soldiers... It never needed to happen. Hassan al-Nasrallah, leader of Hezbollah, made it clear he wanted to exchange prisoners, as has been done before, but new kid Ehud Olmert wanted to flex his military muscle. This operation seems to have backfired, as Hezbollah achieved their goals and Israel did not, and is strengthening Olmert's opposition in the Knesset.

I'd be more concerned over the control your own government/corporate system has over your media than any control Jews may or may not have. Five companies control all the mass media in the US. That's five CEOs deciding what 300 million people watch and read. Plus, as immigrants aren't the issue, they haven't been raised.

As for Hezbollah being terrorists...Israel consistently uses assassination, kidnapping, destruction of civilian infrastructure etc to achieve its strategic and political ends, so tell me how that differs from terrorism.

Hezbollah may well have started this madness by attacking Israeli soldiers, but they didn't start firing their rockets at Haifa, Nazareth etc until after Israel ignored their offer of a prisoner swap and sent the Israeli air force to bomb Beirut's airport, fuel stations, power stations, roads etc. Collective punishment is a clear, blatant War Crime.

If you think people dislike Israel because they have technology or money or whatever (a lot of which comes from the US anyway) then you've missed every point that's been raised in this thread. Because of that I think the discussion may now be able to progress without your presence.

I'm not fussed if you read this or not, hummer. I just had to type it

Quoting Wikipedia for anything else than common sense/public knowledge?? Please.. nevermind for a subject under any degree of dispute.

Hank, few countries don't have blood on their hands.
Terrorism differs from acts of war in that it is done by non-state elements, across national borders, such as Hezbolla's. If Hezbolla is in fact recognized by the Lebanese govt., said govt oughta either have it kept on a leesh or take responsibility for its doings.
The way I understand it, Hezbolla aren't a uniformed force tied to a specific area who stand to defend a town or village - they're stateless terrorists constantly moving.

The media is biased crap, that follows money and exposure, that's true. The only news worth believing beyond doubt is what you see with your own eyes.. short of that, I'll take boots on the ground's comments, or that of citizens on site over any exposure-greedy journo's.

What's for sure is the UN is useless.. unless you count them being used as target by Hez-ebola. IIRC, one of those killed, himself, wrote he understood the necessity of IDF shelling nearby Hezbolla.
Israel (or anyone else) should just hold their breath till the UN unsits from its thumb? The UN hasn't had bite to go with its bark since forever now.

And now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Hezbolla's charter isn't limited to local Lebanon-Israel issues.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Well, I have been thinking about what's going on. I just don't see why so many people hate Israel, and the Jews. Hezbollah is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. I will now stop posting in this thread, because I just don't give a sh*t anymore. I know where I stand, but I have learned to never voice my opinion over the internet. If you are so concerned with Israel "having control" over the US media, how come you are not concerned with the several hundred thousand illigal immigrants living in the US? I seriously do not understand why people hate Israel so much. I think it is because when people see a country that has more money, and new technology, they think that it is easier to attack that country. Maybe instead of becomming terrorists, the people of Hezbollah can stop the violence. Last I checked, there is no Israeli military bases in Haifa (That's where Hezbollah repeatedly targets). So, that is my last post. Goodbye, and there is no need to reply to me. I am voicing my opinion, and if you don't like it, too damn bad.

Awww. Mate. We where doing so well. We have had every nationality here including an Israely. Everyone had something pertinant and constructive to say apart from the token American. It's a shame that the stereotype has to be reinforced so convincingly. I hope that you can use youth as an escuse, if not then you really need to reasses some of your core beliefs.

Quote from Breizh :

Hank, few countries don't have blood on their hands.

True, but that's no justification for the blood to come.

Quote from Breizh :

Terrorism differs from acts of war in that it is done by non-state elements, across national borders, such as Hezbolla's.

False. Terrorism in itself is defined by tactical and strategical choices, most of the times unrelated to the fact that terrorists have no recognised political status. That's why the terms insurgency and Resistance are in use (I'll use the capital letter as a tribute to my grandfather, who was a terrorist in the eyes of nazis, but a recognised hero at the end of WW II).

Quote from Breizh :

If Hezbolla is in fact recognized by the Lebanese govt., said govt oughta either have it kept on a leesh or take responsibility for its doings.

Siniora has explained the situation in some interviews. Read the previous posts about the political status of so called terrorists in this thread for a refute.

Quote from Breizh :

The way I understand it, Hezbolla aren't a uniformed force tied to a specific area who stand to defend a town or village - they're stateless terrorists constantly moving.

That's why the concept of Nation differs from the concept of State. In fact Hezbollah refer more to the arab nation than to Lebanese state.

Quote from Breizh :

The media is biased crap, that follows money and exposure, that's true. The only news worth believing beyond doubt is what you see with your own eyes.. short of that, I'll take boots on the ground's comments, or that of citizens on site over any exposure-greedy journo's.

That's a generalisation. While mainstream media may be interested in favouring some sides of truth and alternative media in opposing sides, we have all the critical abilities needed to put the good old thesis-antithesis-synthesis method at work, provided news coverage is wide enough.

Quote from Breizh :

What's for sure is the UN is useless.. unless you count them being used as target by Hez-ebola.

Maybe true, but up till now I know that Hezbollah wounded an Italian UN soldier while there's an undergoing investigation in Israel (among hundreds of them, all started by Israel's blunder) for the killing of UN observers. It may come to nothing, but the fact that those soldiers were killed by Israeli bombs is certain.

And by the way, name calling doesn't help.

Quote from Breizh :

IIRC, one of those killed, himself, wrote he understood the necessity of IDF shelling nearby Hezbolla.

Other reports tell that UN observers warned repeatedly that the bombing was too close to their positions, but IDF and IAF disregarded the calls. The result is in front of our eyes and under investigation.

Quote from Breizh :

Israel (or anyone else) should just hold their breath till the UN unsits from its thumb? The UN hasn't had bite to go with its bark since forever now.

Israel has already bitten too much. See above posts.

Quote from Breizh :

And now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Hezbolla's charter isn't limited to local Lebanon-Israel issues.

True. See above. Strategical analysts never separate issues when talking about Middle East: even loose connections, when referring to the arab nation, are considered important. For instance, take the Asia Times:

Iraq and its people have probably been the greatest losers in the Israeli war with Hezbollah. For a month, the world's attention was completely fixated on Israel, Lebanon and Hezbollah. The rising sectarian violence in Iraq, until a ceasefire came into effect in Lebanon this Monday, was ignored.

So, why do you think that an arab political organisation should think differently?