Tyre Physics Progress Report [ + Scirocco discussion ]

[bunder9999]

Originally Posted by jasonmatthews

No offence Bunder, but you could not be more wrong....

EVERY league admin struggles to find combo's each year to run a league with.

i know, i was just theorizing. hell, rallycross with only 3 tracks doesn't make much of a league.

[The Very End]

Originally Posted by jasonmatthews

No offence Bunder, but you could not be more wrong....

EVERY league admin struggles to find combo's each year to run a league with. You can not have a recurring league with the same combos and same physics for year after year. Yes, if the physics changed, the game changes, but the physics haven't changed. This is what we are all waiting for.....

Every year in F1 they change the physics, but also they have 17 tracks to choose from. In LFS, we simply do not have that choice for certain cars.

We can do 5 tracks at most, with different configs (but the same old corners, scenery etc) but after 5 years it does get boring as hell. We have had nothing in the way of content IMHO since I became a S2 member..

I was around LFS since it was first released and the excitement was great, but since I joined (2005) full time, I haven't seen one single new area, just SO6 and SO6R, which lets be honest, is not a new track.

As macfox says, I would love to know why we have had no content whatsoever in the last at least 5 years?

We know scawen and victor have been working hard, but where is the things that are independent of that? These are the same things that the community are more than willing to help with for FREE.

Textures, tracks, interiors = <<<<< This is content

I don't understand, and I have tried hard to, but why content like mentioned above has not been constantly updated is beyond me.

It makes no sense to me when you have so many talented graphic artists and track designers to at least get some interiors and tracks released over such a long period of time.

Then, Scawen could take his time on the engine and the physics without any community moans, as we would not be waiting for 5 years for little things that he doesn't do anyway, but do impact on our gameplay.

Well put.

The point that is most confusing are the tracks and cars the devs refuses to use, even if they are getting it free.

I don't have links or anything, but speaking out of memory :
I think there at least have been 2-3 tracks that freely has been offered to the devs as usage in the game, but they did not want that. The same goes for cars, here aswell there has been offers for even real-life stuff but that aswell got denied.

I can only hope the reason for this is because they simply have too many cars / tracks under development, and don't want to use time on other stuff than what they are working on.
Sure - that would be great, but as you say, it should not take 5 years to get more tracks.

So why is it, that the developers refuses to add free content / tracks etc, when it could really help the community in so many ways, and really hold on to it's users? I don't care one bit for the cars, as I have enough to chose from allready, but the tracks... where are them? Driving AS is borring, SO is borring, WE is borring, KY can be interesting sometimes, BL is borring, FE is borring.. AU - not worth mention..

I play LFS regulary, and I love the game, but I am craving for more tracks

[Flame CZE]

Rockingham should change it TVE, it's the first real track, so there should be some fun. However, one track is not enough for some people. But you know, track development takes time.

[farcar]

Originally Posted by Macfox

But there's a time fast approaching (probably now) where people are simply going to write LFS off move to bigger and better sims.

Slightly off topic perhaps, but where are these 'bigger and better sims' (note the plural) that everyone is leaving LFS for?

AFAIK - The only sim remotely in the same league as LFS is iRacing.

What are the other ones people keep referring to in these sweeping broad statements about the decay of the community?

[hotmail]

Originally Posted by LiveForBoobs

@Macfox this one might be more accurate.

lol, so what you are saying , becuase lfs world ( row data ) is not showing what you want it too show. you will find a other page / graph that shows the brandwith / traffic and then its accurate ( because it show the results what you want ).

well don't get me wrong . but its 100% in-accurate. what for information is this giving?
"The data is scaled based on the average search traffic of the term you’ve entered."

it displays how often somebody searched for Live For Speed. have you mind checking the word "lfs" what is showing a increasing graph?
(don't get me wrong, it still isn't proving anything, its just a example)

so like i said 100% in-accurate.

[Scawen]

Hi there.

I'll "break the silence"... though I do think I said something quite recently.

There's really nothing to report, that's why we don't report anything. I've been continuing with the tyre physics. It's a mathematically based model as you know. That involves assumptions and simplifications to make it workable. During testing we found some extreme situations where the assumptions used caused a breakdown of the output forces. It turned out that the extreme situations can actually come up quite often. I don't really want to go into detail, I've been working on the model and studying the situations where things go wrong.

My work rate has not been very high these few months, I admit. For a while I seemed to fix something, it started to look good then on further investigation and analysis, another problem showed up. That kind of stumbling block caused me to take a break while I tried to get my head around it, to try another approach. The new approach might work or might not and I needed to think again. In those thinking times I didn't just sit here pushing myself until i came up with answers, instead I just sorted out other things unrelated to LFS. At this point in life in am not motivated to sort of sit there and pull my hair out and bang my head against a wall until the solution appears, I'd prefer to just do something else, running the problem over in my mind until I know what do do. That way I can make progress gradually without the frustration that can be experienced by someone who is stuck but needs to produce solutions in a given time.

It's not worth releasing a model with fatal flaws that make it worse than the current model in some situations, even though the on-track normal driving feel is better than the old tyre model.

Unfortunately the slow progress with the physics does delay the release of the Scirocco and Rockingham, but it can't really be helped. What I really want to do is get those improvements out there and then work on some more fun things I've been thinking about. You'll understand I can't comment on future things that may or may not happen, but there are things I want to do but can't until this hard stuff is out of the way.

About slow progress... some people comment how progress is so unbelievably and ridiculously slow... well I guess that means there must be a whole lot of sims out there that have overtaken LFS in nearly every way. If so, you can use them for a while, that's why we have an email notification when a patch is released. If people "leave" LFS that is fine. That kind of thing really can't be something I can get worried about. All I can do is work on the things I need to do, to get LFS to a level we are happy with, then release the updates. Sometimes that is delayed by obstacles as I described before, and sometimes by other things that come up in life generally. With two children and a house to look after, things that go wrong, guests that visit occasionally and that kind of thing, it's true that I don't do the same hours that I used to in the early days, when LFS was my hobby, my passion and my work all in one. Now it's more my work, I have other interests as well and there are now other things in life that are more important, but LFS is something I want to be proud of. Something that I want out there and being enjoyed.

Anyway, we have not died and we are not sipping cocktails on a tropical beach. Actually we are working on LFS. I'm developing the physics, Victor is keep things running, Eric is working on things too. We've done a load of work that we want to release, partly for the excitement of it, but we also have mortgages and other bills to pay and the releases will increase sales, so financially it would also be a great idea to get it out there!

Nothing else I can do do really, I'm just trying to get my current LFS projects finished and released. Threats of people "leaving" LFS, predictions of impending doom and so on don't really make any difference. I'm not about to release unfinished stuff and I will still get plently of sleep and relaxation time, and look after the other things I need to look after and develop LFS physics in whatever time it takes. Then we'll get there in the end and we'll send a notification email when the patch is ready, so you can all have a go on an improved LFS with more content.

[Vegas Las]

Originally Posted by Scawen

Anyway, we have not died and we are not sipping cocktails on a tropical beach.

haha !
Thanks for this post Scawen

[EliteAti]

Good to hear from you Scawen, it is sad you've lost a great bit of motivation towards LFS. I hope it all gets back up as soon as possible (Development speed wise etc). Unfortunately LFS is only affordable proper sim (damn iR turds and their prices ) on the market with people running around. Its also unfortunate that you guys cant bring the content like you had done it before, but its life and people who dont like it, get used to it. Besides, loyal customers will stay around.

[TiricK]

............

[Vegas Las]

Originally Posted by EliteAti

Besides, loyal customers will stay around.

Exactly

[Tomhah]

Its not about loyality when it comes to a product. Lets say BMW release a car you dont like. You dont need to buy the car if you dont like it, to be "loyal". Thats not really what it is about. Yeah, bad example, I know :P But there's no/shouldnt be any "loyal" factor when it comes to a product, thats just stupid :P

[durrri]

I'm glad Scawen looked into this thread even though he said he had unsubscribed from it. It sounded like a more honest explanation than the previously posted "we'll report when there's something to report".

Thnx Scawen for the more down-to-earth reality check.

...I sure hope I've got the email notification already setup ;-P

[Rascar13]

Great to see you with a long post again Scawen And its fully understandable what you descriped there. Have fun with the rest of developement of next patch and i hope it wont cause too much trouble on the way to the finish

[Byku]

Thanks for honest info Scawen , it was nice hearing from You. Yeah, well... i have to say that i am also a little irritated with the progress ;p, but hell.. what can I do . Do what You have to do, and make LFS the game You will be proud of. I'll be there when S3 will be released . Remember, those moaning people simply care about LFS , some of them care in a good one, some in a fanatic way or simply in an unhealthy way .

[BOSCHO]

Originally Posted by Byku

Thanks for honest info Scawen , it was nice hearing from You. Yeah, well... i have to say that i am also a little irritated with the progress ;p, but hell.. what can I do . Do what You have to do, and make LFS the game You will be proud of. I'll be there when S3 will be released . Remember, those moaning people simply care about LFS , some of them care in a good one, some in a fanatic way or simply in an unhealthy way .

[hotmail]

Originally Posted by Scawen

Now it's more my work, I have other interests as well and there are now other things in life that are more important, but LFS is something I want to be proud of. Something that I want out there and being enjoyed.

I think you can already be proud of LFS, Just look at what you made in this few year. with only 3 people. i think you can really really be proud already!!

Originally Posted by Scawen

Anyway, we have not died and we are not sipping cocktails on a tropical beach. Actually we are working on LFS. I'm developing the physics, Victor is keep things running, Eric is working on things too. We've done a load of work that we want to release, partly for the excitement of it, but we also have mortgages and other bills to pay and the releases will increase sales, so financially it would also be a great idea to get it out there!

I will be happy to support financial at that time:P

[[BiA]Luder]

the tip to play an other game made true. I now found it.

Thx !

[FaToS]

Originally Posted by Scawen

Hi there.

I'll "break the silence"... though I do think I said something quite recently.

There's really nothing to report, that's why we don't report anything. I've been continuing with the tyre physics. It's a mathematically based model as you know. That involves assumptions and simplifications to make it workable. During testing we found some extreme situations where the assumptions used caused a breakdown of the output forces. It turned out that the extreme situations can actually come up quite often. I don't really want to go into detail, I've been working on the model and studying the situations where things go wrong.

My work rate has not been very high these few months, I admit. For a while I seemed to fix something, it started to look good then on further investigation and analysis, another problem showed up. That kind of stumbling block caused me to take a break while I tried to get my head around it, to try another approach. The new approach might work or might not and I needed to think again. In those thinking times I didn't just sit here pushing myself until i came up with answers, instead I just sorted out other things unrelated to LFS. At this point in life in am not motivated to sort of sit there and pull my hair out and bang my head against a wall until the solution appears, I'd prefer to just do something else, running the problem over in my mind until I know what do do. That way I can make progress gradually without the frustration that can be experienced by someone who is stuck but needs to produce solutions in a given time.

It's not worth releasing a model with fatal flaws that make it worse than the current model in some situations, even though the on-track normal driving feel is better than the old tyre model.

Unfortunately the slow progress with the physics does delay the release of the Scirocco and Rockingham, but it can't really be helped. What I really want to do is get those improvements out there and then work on some more fun things I've been thinking about. You'll understand I can't comment on future things that may or may not happen, but there are things I want to do but can't until this hard stuff is out of the way.

About slow progress... some people comment how progress is so unbelievably and ridiculously slow... well I guess that means there must be a whole lot of sims out there that have overtaken LFS in nearly every way. If so, you can use them for a while, that's why we have an email notification when a patch is released. If people "leave" LFS that is fine. That kind of thing really can't be something I can get worried about. All I can do is work on the things I need to do, to get LFS to a level we are happy with, then release the updates. Sometimes that is delayed by obstacles as I described before, and sometimes by other things that come up in life generally. With two children and a house to look after, things that go wrong, guests that visit occasionally and that kind of thing, it's true that I don't do the same hours that I used to in the early days, when LFS was my hobby, my passion and my work all in one. Now it's more my work, I have other interests as well and there are now other things in life that are more important, but LFS is something I want to be proud of. Something that I want out there and being enjoyed.

Anyway, we have not died and we are not sipping cocktails on a tropical beach. Actually we are working on LFS. I'm developing the physics, Victor is keep things running, Eric is working on things too. We've done a load of work that we want to release, partly for the excitement of it, but we also have mortgages and other bills to pay and the releases will increase sales, so financially it would also be a great idea to get it out there!

Nothing else I can do do really, I'm just trying to get my current LFS projects finished and released. Threats of people "leaving" LFS, predictions of impending doom and so on don't really make any difference. I'm not about to release unfinished stuff and I will still get plently of sleep and relaxation time, and look after the other things I need to look after and develop LFS physics in whatever time it takes. Then we'll get there in the end and we'll send a notification email when the patch is ready, so you can all have a go on an improved LFS with more content.

Thanks for the info. Now I know what is happening .
Take your time and release the patch when it is finished

[Vegas Las]

Originally Posted by FaToS

Take your time and release the patch when it is finished

I hope so

Maybe few peoples will stop talking about the devs work now ???

[loopingz]

Thanks for the report.
Keep up, maths can suck big time we all know. I really hope you find out before being bold!

[Andreas B]

Originally Posted by Scawen

At this point in life in am not motivated to sort of sit there and pull my hair out and bang my head against a wall until the solution appears

See, there is were it went wrong We need more for quick developement

nahh, keep up the good work and we'll someday get a nice patch...someday...

[durrri]

sry for spaming,
but i just laughed when this picture reminded me of this thread

[Flame CZE]

Thank you Scawen for the report. It's great that you all are working on something and I wish you good luck with the tyre model development. I understand how hard it is to develop something like a physics model, as it's in my opinion the most important part of car simulation.

[matijapkc]

Nice to see that You are still working on it. I always had trust in You, that you will get the patch out soon. I hope you'll get your mind straight and get the solution for all LFS (and other ) problems.

Greetz from Croatia.

[Greboth]

Originally Posted by matijapkc

I hope you'll get your mind straight and get the solution for all LFS (and other ) problems.

Other problems? Like world peace you mean?

Personally speaking an update wasn't needed but it is good to get one I am sure alot of the people who said they are leaving or will eave is just empty threats, when the email notification goes out they will be back lol. Keep working on it Scavier, we will be here when it is done.

On a funny note with the email notification: I was on my pc the other night and up popped an msn notification to say I had an email off LFS. I got so excited, turns out it was a PM lol.

[three_jump]

Thanks for the update @ Scawen
Just out of interest, do you get any outside help with creating the tire model in terms of understanding how it works and assumptions that can be made or do you really try to do it on your own with lots of books?

Apart from that and I really do know how this sounds, but is there any way to release just a content update (GTR cockpits as example) from Erics side? I realize that the plan is to get the physics update done first, but as far as I understand your post that might be "some" time away still.

[Hahmo]

Thanks for the update

[bully2100]

You should already be proud of what you all have created. when its ready, its ready it would be nice if the likes of EA etc took the same approach instead of "we will release it for sale, and sort it out later" which seems very common with computer games nowadays,

thanks again.

[Takumi_lfs]

Well, people that don't know anything about developing a game are moaning. I don't know anything about such things but im just not talking about it for now, Let the experianced guys moan about it. They atleast understand something about it.

[Furiously-Fast]

Thanks for the info Scawen. I hope to see a new patch in early 2009