Nice video.

I have no hard numbers to say how right or wrong that is, but that last bit about "clutch in and recover" looks very very off indeed.

Quote from Matrixi :

This is exactly what I expected from this forum though, anything that happens in LFS is automatically realistic. No questions asked, ever.

oh please... we all knwo the tyre get very soapy when they are very very hot in lfs

what would be necessary to actually make a point would be graphs like the ones android did in an older thread linked to a few posts above and the same curves of a real tyre for comparison
if these curves match reasonably well the next step would be to compare heat cycles of both lfs and real world tyres to see if lfs tyres heat ip quicker or if real world tyres top out at some point or get ripped apart well before they can reach the kind of temperatures you can push lfs' tyres to

unfortunately showing a video of something everybody already knows doesnt measure up to the usual standard of physics discussions on this forum

Don't get the tyres hot in the first place.

Quote from Gnomie :

My main gripe with the tyre model in LFS remains the lenient slip angles and smooth transitions from grip <--> slide. This is something that affects us in all races. But that's another discussion.

I just hope that devs won't make it over snappy like in most sims. It's very close to real life behaviour now. At least street tires wise.

And hot tires in real life are not even close to hot tires in lfs behaviour wise. What Matrixi is saying is absolutely right.

I speak from experience http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk (1 day ago) and based on comments from drifters with cars that can get tires very very hot and smokey. So yeah, it is wrong. Other sims can get it more right, so why not LFS as well?

This has been an issue since tire heating was introduced. It would be nice if Scawen has put some time in it, or commented the issue.

Quote from Shotglass :

oh please...

Oh please at yourself, my fellow forumracer.

Rambling on hours and hours about tire slip graphs might interest you engineers, but a brief 4 minute video showing what's seriously wrong with the tires saves everyones time. Plus, LFS doesn't interest me enough anymore to actually waste that much of my time on pointing out how something is wrong in it by drawing 50 graphs and spreadsheets about the subject.

Quote from Shotglass :

unfortunately showing a video of something everybody already knows doesnt measure up to the usual standard of physics discussions on this forum

Looking at some of the replies here and on the video comments, I wouldn't be so sure about it being such a well known issue.

Please, please, PLEASE tell me you have actualy overheated the tyres on a vehicle in real life.

If you have ever oveheated a tyre that badly in real life you would know that LFS's grip loss is fairly realistic. Its not perfect, but when you overheat a tyre it does become like driving on ice.

I overheated the rear tire on my honda dual sport bike, doing stupid things like drifting. And I can tell you, when it gets hot enough, it will not grip at all. I had to stop and let the tyre cool down before I could continue, and this is a small engine bike. If I had a larger engine I would have been screwed. Its just a good thing there was a new set of tyres waiting, which was partly the reason I had fun with it.

Tyres arn't designed to opperate at those temperatures, and when they get that hot they will fade just as badly if not worse than drum brakes, which I also have experiance with.

Tyres start to get greasy when they realy heat up, the softeners and plasticizers boil out of the tyre (causing smoke) and the tyre becomes completely usless, after it cools it will be permanantly damaged as well because the surface will re-harden and become a slick shiny blue-blackish color.

I have seen someone spin around in third gear because they overheated thier tyres, they floored it and did doughnuts because they thaugt it was funny, and then they realized they had just sealed the tyres fate and would need new ones right away.

Before you post something like that, you should do research and figure out if it is realy wrong or not. I personaly have experianced overheated tyres causeing "Driving on soap".

DragonCommando: I'm going to quote myself in case if you missed my post.

Quote from kamkorPL :

And hot tires in real life are not even close to hot tires in lfs behaviour wise. What Matrixi is saying is absolutely right.

I speak from experience http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk (1 day ago) and based on comments from drifters with cars that can get tires very very hot and smokey. So yeah, it is wrong. Other sims can get it more right, so why not LFS as well?

This has been an issue since tire heating was introduced. It would be nice if Scawen has put some time in it, or commented the issue.

1) We are talking about cars, I have no idea how it affects bike.
2) I wish it was true what you are saying, because then I would have been able to put up a better fight with more powerfull cars and wouldn't have to keep clutch kicking on 3rd gear to keep the drift going.

Quote from Matrixi :

Oh please at yourself, my fellow forumracer.

ive embarrassed casse on twack more often in the last few month than you ever had a chance to

Quote :

Rambling on hours and hours about tire slip graphs might interest you engineers, but a brief 4 minute video showing what's seriously wrong with the tires saves everyones time.

the problem is it doesnt show anything because none of us knows if the problem is the grip at high temperatures or the temperatures you can reach in lfs and the time it takes to reach them

Quote :

Plus, LFS doesn't interest me enough anymore to actually waste that much of my time on pointing out how something is wrong in it by drawing 50 graphs and spreadsheets about the subject.

well it still seems to be interesting enough to spend considerable time recording and editing a video

Quote :

Looking at some of the replies here and on the video comments, I wouldn't be so sure about it being such a well known issue.

well it is well known to anyone whos ever tried drifting in lfs which may or may not say something about the quality of lfs' tyre model if you keep it within the temperature envelope you will experience while racing which it was undoubtedly desgined for

Quote from Shotglass :

well it still seems to be interesting enough to spend considerable time recording and editing a video

One hour of video editing from my life in exchange of a hope of LFS being enjoyable and challenging again some day, I thought I'd take the chance.

Nice video. I think the tires don't have enough grip when they're COLD, and you can't even call them tires when they're HOT, maybe call them tires drenched in oil. How about making a video comparing LFS to real life? That would actually give a more accurate comparison of what LFS SHOULD be like, cause comparing LFS to itself doesn't really give us much to compare to, since we all know the shortcomings of LFS.

Quote from kamkorPL :

DragonCommando: I'm going to quote myself in case if you missed my post.



1) We are talking about cars, I have no idea how it affects bike.
2) I wish it was true what you are saying, because then I would have been able to put up a better fight with more powerfull cars and wouldn't have to keep clutch kicking on 3rd gear to keep the drift going.

I'm sorry, but comparing drifto tires to race tires is two completely different things. Drift tires are made to be slick (soapy if you will), and make lots of smoke. In real terms, they are crap tires. They are made to withstand the heat by letting it escape as smoke and massive quantities of rubber. It makes for a better show.

LFS does not model tires perfectly, but from my own personal track experience with performance street tires, when they get hot, they get slippery. Just like DragonCommando said. LFS does a pretty good job of this. The curve might be too steep where the tires get red hot too easily, or they might not shed high heat quickly enough, I don't know for sure. But what you guys are saying about red hot tires being to slippery is just crap. It sounds to me like you are just begging for a set of drift tires to use in this racing simulator.

Quote from Hallen :

I'm sorry, but comparing drifto tires to race tires is two completely different things. Drift tires are made to be slick (soapy if you will), and make lots of smoke. In real terms, they are crap tires. They are made to withstand the heat by letting it escape as smoke and massive quantities of rubber. It makes for a better show.

2008 Polish Drift Champion was using Toyo R888 tires all season and the grip levels didn't get soapy at all. Insteed the tires have been keeping great grip.

What's your assumption based on? My vid was just a proof that so many are seeking that we do not speak bullshit. And I did mention that I also was speaking based on comments from drifters with highly invested cars (which includes new very grippy semi slick tires).

edit:

1) So if I buy r888 or R1R or other semi-slick alike tire, I will be able to drift 4th gear with clouds of smoke, because it will get soapy after long burnout? WRONG.

2) There is no such thing as drift tire (except for Kumho coloured smoke tires, or burnout tires :P).

edit2:

3) Lfs street cars have road tires. To me normal tire is normal price real life tire. Super tire is high perfomance bridgestone, toyo, good year etc tire or worse.

i see no proof in this thread

only e-experts

kthnxbai

Quote from Byku :

What Devs should work about is tyre wear, most road cars will start to lose tyre grip after around 4-5 laps around average track.

+1

Having the grip in tires go away due to wear (rather than just heat) would add a lot to LFS league racing. As it is, as long as they don't pop, you don't even think about wear.

When motorcycle tyres get "hot" they grip better. Of course there's an optimum temperature. These figures are pulled out of my ass but you get the idea.

Tyre temperature, of a say sports tyre (not a trackday but for the faster user)

0-15 degrees (cold just out of garage) : Poor grip
15-25 degrees : Acceptable grip
25-40 degrees (normal to "quick" driving/riding) : Best grip
40-50 degrees : Good grip, tread will start to "chew up", will start to experience slight bluing which doesn't really affect grip, just natural heat cycles. Too many however, and yes grip will start to be lost but it's not like you do 18 track days a week.
50 degrees (100% commitment on a track) : Tyre can't cope with the temperature and starts to tear up, grip will still be better than when cold, however tyre has passed it's optimum.

A "warm/hot" tyre is better than the cold one. Why on earth would all these track day and racing drivers/riders make such a fuss about having tyres up to temperature, tyre warmers, etc etc, if a cold one is better. Then you'd have fans inside them and all that shizzle!

I assume (probably correctly) that in principle the same goes for car tyres, however the difference would be less noticeable for most users as you have much more grip avalible.

Quote from Hallen :

... Drift tires...

Ok, now THAT makes me laugh.

Quote from Hallen :

... But what you guys are saying about red hot tires being to slippery is just crap. It sounds to me like you are just begging for a set of drift tires to use in this racing simulator.

Are you sure?

We aren't just talking about Hot tyres though but worn tyres.

Once you get those tyres into the red, they are technically Bald. A set of Bald tyres aren't going to do much even if they reach "optimal" temperature

Quote from radnes :

i see no proof in this thread

only e-experts

kthnxbai

what's wrong with you? did you saw kamkor's link?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk

and if you miss it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk


just watch it and shut up. is he e-expert? yes. sure about that

I'm embarrassed by how many people seem to be deliberately misreading the OP in order to flame him.

He understands how temperature affects grip - he's arguing that in excessively hot conditions the tyres loose an exaggerated amount of grip.

I think we're more talking about tires temperature than anything else.
Off course 'bald tires' aren't going to do much, but in some case they could. It depends on lots of things, the tire compound, tire thread, the temp of the surface, the tire rubber, the air in the tire etc.. So no, we couldn't tell with 100% precision how tires should act in a simulator, but at least we could tell how they shouldn't.

Just a little example. The other day with a friend of mine we decided to give it a shot with BF1 as we're still getting more and more experience from this game.
As LFS is a racing simulator after all (as you all shout at us everytime as an argument), we tried to do it the "in real life" racing way. It's a racing simulator, so it shouldn't be the big deal? Exciting I'd say!
So here we are, for the warm-up lap... We were wearing 'hard' tires so we decided to heat them up before the start. Waving down the straights and doing some 'burnouts' like real Formula1 do. And suddenly when you reach the grid, you press F9 and notice that your tires are over 150° and have less grip than *ù§*'"!:. And the worst is that I did wait 10 minutes for them to cool down. How realistic is that?

Edit: I'm quite sad to see that old lfs players, and drivers in real life, can't see what's unrealistic or not. Whatever it is.

Just wondering refering to the threat title what excatly does this have to do with elephants becaus they get slippy when there soapy..

I've tried your little story d1gp and find it to be false, infact with the hardest tyres I find it hard to even get them green, let alone to the point of overheating..

And I haven't seen a F1 car do a burnout before a race starts but hey, what do I know..

I find that so long as you don't slide your car (take for example the XRT), if you drive it cleanly without drifting it you'll find the tyres take a couple of laps to warm up, as in real life, grip levels will stay pretty consistent until the tyres hit around 85 degrees, and even then you just back off 5% and be a bit smoother..

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I've tried your little story d1gp and find it to be false, infact with the hardest tyres I find it hard to even get them green, let alone to the point of overheating..

With R4's, and without warmup lap, off course. (The kind of warmup lap I described before)
If you drive cleanly as you said, there won't be any problems. Totally agree with that.
What I meant about F1 doing burnout was just an example. Sometime they have to keep their tires to the right temp before the start and so they have to heat them up (in some cases). The better and faster way to do that is forcing some understeering on the front, and spin the rear wheels. All those frictions will generate heat and would make the tire do its job better.
Just try that in lfs and find out that doesn't work.

Almost forgot. http://xs139.xs.to/xs139/09180/lfsf2483.jpg

Cold tyres grip badly, tyres that are upto temperature grip properly, and tyres that are overheated start to lose grip, although i think that this effect is far more sudden and dramatic in LFS in comparison to real life.

I have raced a few cars in real life, and i can safely say that i have never been in such a situation that i face in LFS from time to time.

Take the corner before the pits entrance on blackwood for example, in an XFG, using the default setup.

I can safely say with confidence that even my crappy rover road car could attempt that corner at 30mph on hot tyres regardless of how hot they were, and still get round with very little problems, not plough in a dead straight line, even when using full lock when it won't turn, and it spinning the wheels if i so much as look at the throttle, which happens in LFS.

I feel i must take the time to also thank the OP for the most random thread title that i have ever seen.

I don't think i have ever seen the word elephant in a thread title before, and i doubt i will again!

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I've tried your little story d1gp and find it to be false, infact with the hardest tyres I find it hard to even get them green, let alone to the point of overheating..

Quote from d1gp :

Almost forgot. http://xs139.xs.to/xs139/09180/lfsf2483.jpg

That picture does NOT suits what he said.

Quote from kamkorPL :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJZK1szuLk

What's name of this sim?