Spinoff : Vista sound bug / Can't unlock LFS on Vista 64?

[RoCkBiGdAvE]

I have a problem. I cant unlock! I am running Vista (again) and i went to unlock and poof 'Unlocking Error'

I tried on U12, nope, i've also tried on U13, nope still! I done a clean instal of LFS on standard U, same, U12, same, U13, same.

Im running 64bit version if that makes a difference .

[ORION]

Hm I dont know in how far the 64 and 32 bit versions differ, but the unlocking worked for me and all others. Dunno if one of them used the 64bit version though.
Are you sure the windows firewall isnt blocking LFS?

[RoCkBiGdAvE]

Hm I dont know in how far the 64 and 32 bit versions differ, but the unlocking worked for me and all others. Dunno if one of them used the 64bit version though.
Are you sure the windows firewall isnt blocking LFS?
Yes, LFS is in the exceptions list. I can get the online server list for the demo ok, no problems there, just unlocking.

EDIT: I can connect to demo servers and race.

[RoCkBiGdAvE]

I stll cant unlock!

Delved a bit into it last night and i think it does connect. If i type me username in wrong, it tells me there isnt that nick on the system, if i type me password wrong, it tells me the GAMEpassword does not match, but when i get them right, it says unlocking error.

Help please!

[Scawen]

Has anyone else tried unlocking with the 64 bit version of Vista?

[ORION]

I just looked over the other Vista-related threads and couldnt find anyone who said it worked for him in the 64bit version. Two said it didnt work, Gener_AL said his network card isnt supported so he cant unlock anyway.
I COULD hijack my brother's computer and install a 64bit Vista there, because he has a 64bit CPU, which is needed for the 64bit Vista I guess.
Gotta download the 64bit version at first, though.

[dawesdust_12]

I don't know if scawen is aware of this either, but I am unable to unlock in Cedega in linux, I have seen another person on this forum who has, but I am unable to get a reply from him with his settings.

(Sorry if this is off topic, but seeing as the topic is unlocking errors)

[NotAnIllusion]

Has anyone else tried unlocking with the 64 bit version of Vista?
Works, can't remember off my head whether it was with U11 or 12 though.

[VinE]

Running vista 64 here, and I can't unlock it..

on U12, now testing U14..

EDIT: 14 no go either..

EDIT2: It's not the firewall..

EDIT3: Hmmm.. I've got music in the menus, but not a peep in in-game sound...

[glyphon]

EDIT3: Hmmm.. I've got music in the menus, but not a peep in in-game sound...

you need to adjust your sound lag, in the options -> misc screen
see info in this thread.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=163145#post163145

[Scawen]

Yes. But that should be reported to Microsoft as an issue. Please could you Vista users report that to Microsoft as a bug in the Vista Beta.


The need to increase sound lag suggests that either :

1) there is some kind of long delay between writing to the looping sound buffer, and that info actually making it to the sound card.

Or :

2) there is a bug in the function waveOutGetPosition - this is the funciton that LFS calls to get the position in the buffer where the sound is being generated from, and it writes the new sound a little way ahead of that read point. How far ahead to write depends on the value of the "sound lag" setting.


Increasing sound lag to 0.3 seconds may make the sound come out but then there is a long delay between your engine revs increasing, and you actually hearing that increase.

So my point is that this is a quite serious problem with Vista and if not fixed then it rules out the possibility of generating interactive sound using the waveOut system.

Feel free to quote me or send Microsoft a link to this post.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=166685#post166685

[ORION]

Ok, I have now installed the windows beta client (= bug reporting tool), and filled out some forms already. Looks like they want to have very detailed information, though.
Scawen, would it be much work to write a small test app? I don't know if they will be willing to download the whole LFS archive just to test this.
However, the sound starts to come up at a sound lag of about 0.22, but its almost only noise, and very stuttering. When you increase the sound lag further, its gets louder, and the noise is very strong at 0.24, and you begin to hear an engine rev through it. At 0.3 it seems clean.
Im sorry that I can't record the sound, maybe that would help already...

[Gener_AL (UK)]

tried again to unlock on vista 64

get strange error on start up of LFS
Could not create english file

when i try unlock, get error
could not create file

----------------------------------------------------------
System/drivers
AMD opteron 146U
NForce 4 Ultra
http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_downloads_nforce_vista_x64_beta2.html
Using Realtek 8139 NIC (MS drivers)
Onboard Realtek AC97 audio (Drivers used see above link)
Using 1Gb Ram
-----------------------------------------------------------

gonna test sound now and investigate network activity on unlock.

(was using a creative card that still has no drivers !! )

*******
Update 20.35pm
*******

OK tried installing fresh LFS Ver Q > patched to ver U->

Start up error fixed , first unlock attempt > unlock error >2nd attempt LFS hardlock>tried to kill proccess >system lock

Patched to U14->

Can attempt unlocking without hardlocking system now , but still gives "unlock error"

---------------------------------

Sound is exactley as described as Orion stated, ive tried a few things , Vista alows you to split channels etc or give app priority (http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=13002&stc=1&d=1152734424) nothing seems to help this lag/clip effect going under .26/27

I did find a fix for if sound totally stops working in game (which it did on 2 occasions) disable all music then re-enable (i didnt try shift&w shift &n if i can reproduce this ill post and test these hot keys)

----------------------------------

[imthebestracerthereis]

just wait till s3 they might intergrate it into if you ask victor reeeeaaal nice:)

[glyphon]

Sound is exactley as described as Orion stated, ive tried a few things , Vista alows you to split channels etc or give app priority (http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=13002&stc=1&d=1152734424) nothing seems to help this lag/clip effect going under .26/27

if i had to guess, i think it would be this new functionality that is causing the sound issues in LFS in vista.

[ORION]

Can you post some more details on "this new functionality" please?

Gener_AL: can you record sound? I guess it would help to have some sound file to attach to the report, even though a little program would be nicer.
Maybe there are other programs (music players / generators) with the same problem, so they can test if their bug fixes work.

[glyphon]

lots of informational links here, mostly "behind the scenes" stuff though; not so much detailed info on the new features, but how the new features work, and changes that have been made to the audio stack and APIs.

http://blogs.msdn.com/larryosterman/archive/category/10954.aspx

[Scawen]

Scawen, would it be much work to write a small test app? I don't know if they will be willing to download the whole LFS archive just to test this.Quite a lot yes but I've done one, because we will need to prove this bug to Microsoft with a simple example. I can supply the source code if this program seems to prove the point.

But first, please can you test the small program (attached).

What do do : reduce the "Write ahead" value (with N / M keys) and see how low you can go before the sound gets corrupted. Example : on my computer it starts to get corrupted at 0.04, is permanently corrupted at 0.03 and goes silent at 0.02.

"Write ahead" is the same as "Sound lag" in LFS. If you try the A / Z keys to change the frequency then you can see the benefit of having a smaller "Write ahead".

[ORION]

Ok, it works perfectly as expected. On my WinXP notebook, I have exactly the same result as you, no matter if I set the CPU to 1500MHz or 500MHz.

On Vista, I get smooth sound only for 0.28 and higher. At 0.23, the sound is almost gone, only a bit noise every 2-5 seconds or so. 0.22 = no sound at all.

Thanks, going to write the report now.

[Scawen]

Ok, it works perfectly as expected. On my WinXP notebook, I have exactly the same result as you, no matter if I set the CPU to 1500MHz or 500MHz.

On Vista, I get smooth sound only for 0.28 and higher. At 0.23, the sound is almost gone, only a bit noise every 2-5 seconds or so. 0.22 = no sound at all.

Thanks, going to write the report now.Well... shall I attach the source code first?

Then they will know what the program does... that might be helpful!

[Scawen]

One other thing Orion...

You need to do one more test. We need to know if the delay is still true. On XP, if you set the write aheed to 0.3, then try changing frequency, you will notice that it takes a third of a second before the sound changes.

Is it the same on Vista (when you have set the write ahead to the minimum level where it works ok) ? Or is the frequency change time delay very small if you do that?

[Scawen]

OK here's the source code for that program. And I've included the compiled program in the zip as well. This should help the Microsoft people understand what's going on, if the report ever makes it to a programmer!

EDIT : removed the attachment and added a link to an updated version of the test program. The new zip file contains :

Source code
Compiled exe
README.txt explaining the issue

www.liveforspeed.co.uk/Sound_Test_CPP_SOURCE.zip

[ORION]

Well I reported it now, but Im not sure if it was actually sent.... you click finish, and it jumps back to the beginning, without any message. Weird...
I saved it on my disk so I can upload it again.

[EDIT]
The felt delay is the same on both XP and Vista.

Apparently it didnt send anything... I will try to find the problem after eating :D

[EDIT2]
Ok, Im now 100% sure it didnt send anything. There should have been a promt asking for a MS Passport login, but there was nothing. I will have to create such a passport account now, but I hope next time it will not just do nothing when I click "Finish".

[Scawen]

Good luck Orion. And thank you for your efforts. I have written to a programmer friend to see if he has any MS contact I could get in touch with about this as well. It seems to be a very important bug...

[ORION]

Ok everything has worked now... you have to fill in the build field, in order to be allowed to check the checkbox that gets the details from the current computer, which overrides the build field then. lol :)
Additionally, it was required hat you have a ms passport "cookie" as xml data in your user folder somewhere.
Thanks google :D

I have tried to explain the problem in a nice way, and included our testing results in there. If they dont understand this... well then they can apply as coder for valve :P :D

[Scawen]

I've updated my post with a link to the test exe and source, slightly updated, and added a readme file of explanation as well.

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Dont know how much more i can help as my coding skills arent even worth mentioning.

i did record the sound clipping starting from 30 each time i lower the write ahead value i change pitch so i could make it in one file :D

at .23 sound is just about gone.

sound test audio result - Vista64 (http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=13147&stc=1&d=1152975724)

http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=13148&stc=1&d=1152975724

[ORION]

Well it's too late to send a new file now anyway, I have attached the first version from Scawen including the source, and uploaded it as a cab file. They don't accept external download links for the files.
So I doubt they will go here and download the newer version... Maybe they will write an email if it's fixed :)
We'll see...

[KiDCoDEa]

i doubt VERY much there won't be a way of doing live sound or that if a bug exists they happily release the OS anyway, because for example, there are loads of apps costing thousand of dollars that use pc to generate sound. In music biz etc.
i once tested lfs on a very early vista code and it worked flawlessly.
i dunno what exactly happened inbetween but i find this very weird and i suspect some lack of info issue.
good luck anyway.

[Cue-Ball]

Guys - I have access to the latest Vista builds and can file bugs directly without jumping through all the public beta hoops. I'm going to try this on the latest Vista build and will report back on whether or not it works. If it does not work I can talk to one of the sound developers and have him take a look.

Edit: I can confirm that this problem still exists in the Vista build from early this week. I'll file a bug against this and try to get the dev to take a look. Scawen - If there's any info you think needs to be put into the bug, please PM me.

Edit2: A bug has been filed and Scawen's "Sound Test" zip file has been attached to the bug. This should give them everything they need to look at the problem. And, trust me, the audio devs WILL see this bug. Whether or not it gets fixed is another matter entirely.

[ORION]

You can find a good readme in the archive that contains Scawen's tool and the source.

[Cue-Ball]

You can find a good readme in the archive that contains Scawen's tool and the source.Yes. I attached the archive and also put Scawen's comments into the descritption field. Hopefully I'm not stepping on your toes by filing a report, Orion. I just know from experience that customer reported bugs take forever before they actually filter down to the point that they are seen by the developers. I've got a little bit more of a "direct" route. I only wish I had seen this thread sooner.

Scawen - Can we break the audio portion of this thread off into it's own thread, separate from the unlocking issue?

[ORION]

appreciated :up: :)

[Cue-Ball]

Just wanted to give a short update on the sound issue. I filed a bug and it was looked at by the audio developers. In short - they are not going to fix this problem. They seemed to indicate that writing data into an already submitted buffer is a Bad Thing and should not be done.

I don't know what other options you have, Scawen. But, you may have to change the way sound works in LFS if you want it to work properly in Vista. :shrug:

Sorry I couldn't be more help, but this is straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know.

[Scawen]

Well I haven't got a clue how live generated sound can be possible if you aren't allowed to write ahead into a looping buffer. That sounds crazy to me. So what, we just have to play looping samples that have been pre-recorded, and that's all you can do on Windows Vista?

Thanks for looking into it and getting a reply, Cue-Ball.

[Honey]

if it's still allowed on vista, audio kernel streaming could do the trick, or maybe asio (it was menat for real time audio), but that would mean it would only work for users with expensive audio cards...

i think the real reason why ms won't fix this could rely on "trusted computing" features, maybe a sort like winx sp2 that won't let you see any dvd if you have a graphic card with tv out... :(

[Cue-Ball]

i think the real reason why ms won't fix this could rely on "trusted computing" features, maybe a sort like winx sp2 that won't let you see any dvd if you have a graphic card with tv out... :(I think you are probably on the right track here. I don't know any of the details, but a lot of stuff in Vista has been "sandboxed" so that malicious software and misbehaving programs can't destabilize the system. I've got a feeling that audio has been handled similarly and that's what is causing this issue. I don't know this for a fact, but it's my hypothesis.

Scawen - I'm not a programmer and even if I was, I'm bound by NDA. If you have specific questions I can try to get you some info. Otherwise, there's a limit to how much I can help, unfortunately. :(

Doesn't RBR generate sound in a similar way to LFS? If so, does it have the same problem? Anyone know?

[Shotglass]

somebody should try how rbr and nkp with really low sound latency settings work in vista

[glyphon]

i can't say anything about rbr or nkp, but GTL seemed to work without the lag issue. now, i have no idea how their audio system differs. just an observation.

that said, i've since ditched vista, and most likely won't be going back for years to come. i don't see any need or reason to do so. and UAC really really annoyed me. Even with UAC completely disabled, and the control panel "run as admin" the system wouldn't grant me permissions to calibrate my DFP. i blame that issue on beta hiccups, but still, i find UAC to be more of a hiderance than help.

[Honey]

i think gtl has prerecorded sounds, so it is not affected by this vista bug (yes to me IT'S a BUG!)

i will not start a discussion about "trusted computing" or will not stop (:x), but it's clear that starting from vista, users and developers will be no loger the owners of their own systems...

since vista support is taking so much time from devs, my sugestion is posticipate it after S2 final (if it was for me i will never support vista :nod:)

[glyphon]

I completely agree that it is a bug and i feel that MS is going to far out of their way to protect users from theirselves (themselves?).

[Shotglass]

how is denying access to something thats not to be accessed in the first place a bug ?

[Scawen]

It is a bug, there is no doubt about that.

What I'm doing is very simple, you can read the source code of the test program. Just asking windows where it has got to in the looping sound buffer, and writing new sounds ahead of that point, before the system gets to that point.

There's nothing wrong with it, the documentation doesn't say it's a bad idea - they provide a function "waveOutGetPosition" for this exact reason. It makes sense and it works with all previous versions of Windows. So it is a bug and a very bad one. I don't accept some crazy Microsoft programmers telling me what I'm doing is not a good thing. It would be a "good thing" for them to make their own functions work correctly. And if they want to say that this isn't a "good thing" then they should explain how it should be done.

Yes I am irritated. :mad:

[Honey]

not to mention that before asio came out, that was the most common technique for application dedicated to musicians for real time audio effects, who has ever developed will see it as it is: a damn bug!
who is not a developer, may be mislead from microsoft advertisement...that's just sad that road that the TCG is trying to impose...

[DEVIL 007]

Hi all...especially Scawen,

What all I am reading here is very annyoing.I mean how Microsoft currently making position with this issue.I still hope this will be fixed by MS but have some doubts about it.

I dont want to start some discussion about how far Microsoft is going with the users/programmers loosing control over the OS and how MS can control things:( .This is really not place for that.

Scawen,
sorry to say that but it might happend that in this case you are too small "boss" to get the M$ asses moving so you will probably have to do with this something in future(I still hope you will have not to really bother with this issue).We all know that you more then a good programmer and that some guys in MS should wake up and not bother with their "truth".Wish you the luck in this case.Fingers crossed:thumb:

P.S:we äll know that MS sometimes call "bug" a new feature:pillepall :(

[ORION]

Maybe some of the ppl at MS have heard the name "Peter Molyneux" though ;) :D

Somehow I have the feeling they dont even know "Bill Gates" though... :D

[Cue-Ball]

I can guarantee you that this is not going to be changed for Vista. It's too late in the product cycle for such a change, and the function that allowed this system to work (allowed for inserting data in an already streaming buffer) is deemed as risky. Simple as that.

Scawen will have to find some other way to generate the sound. Luckily, he's one of the most talented programmers I've come across, so I'm sure he can do it. With a little luck not only will he work around this new limitation, but he'll improve the end product as well. Who knows, maybe this will be the catalyst that gets an improved sound generation system put in the game?

Note: I'm not a representative of Microsoft and make no statements on their behalf. You'll just have to trust that I know what I'm talking about.

[Honey]

maybe i didn't remarked enough in my first intervetion...solution exists: Kernel Streaming, but that means scawen will have (if he wants to support vista) to reimplement any part of the lfs sound engine...let's say a third of lfs should be reimplemented...:(
for this a many other reasons i thing that the gaming industry, will be the last to support vista...if that happens, ms maybe will be forced to step back with a service pack for "backward" compatibility.

[DEVIL 007]

for this a many other reasons i thing that the gaming industry, will be the last to support vista...if that happens, ms maybe will be forced to step back with a service pack for "backward" compatibility.
I have some feeling that Vista might end like Windows Millenium.The biggest mistake in MS history.

[filur]

.. it would only work for users with expensive audio cards
Not really, ASIO has had DirectX drivers for over 7 years. With reasonably simple content such as LFS' engine sounds a budget card/chip should easily be able to run with latency well under 20ms.

There's also http://www.asio4all.com/ (WDM).

[Honey]

I have some feeling that Vista might end like Windows Millenium.The biggest mistake in MS history.
that's my hope but it would be much harder because ms marketing now is the most aggressive than ever, when companies buy workstations the hardware resellers put hardware+windows preinstalled at cheaper price than only hardware and there's no deal...that way windows on workstations will be hard to die...

[Honey]

Not really, ASIO has had DirectX drivers for over 7 years. With reasonably simple content such as LFS' engine sounds a budget card/chip should easily be able to run with latency well under 20ms.

There's also http://www.asio4all.com/ (WDM).
this is a good point, but you'd be surprised about how few people have an asio sound card...moreover it is some years that audio is integrated on motherboards, so how many people would spend on more hardware just to play lfs? imo it would be not a smart move regarding marketing, while technically i agree with you. :)

[Shotglass]

I have some feeling that Vista might end like Windows Millenium.The biggest mistake in MS history.

i doubt it ... ms has learned from that mistake and while theyre most probably doing it all over again they were smart enough to make vista the only choice by deciding to not support dx on xp anymore

[filur]

this is a good point, but you'd be surprised about how few people have an asio sound card...moreover it is some years that audio is integrated on motherboards

What i'm saying is everyone has an ASIO card, even integrated $0.5 chips.

Attached is a realtime recorded clip of my budget realtek chip on my budget motherboard playing 9 channels of asio sound, using 6 different virtual instruments and 2 mastering plugins. At 16.6ms latency (DirectX).

[DEVIL 007]

What i'm saying is everyone has an ASIO card, even integrated $0.5 chips.

Attached is a realtime recorded clip of my budget realtek chip on my budget motherboard playing 9 channels of asio sound, using 6 different virtual instruments and 2 mastering plugins. At 16.6ms latency (DirectX).
And whats the CPU usuage using ASIO?What was in your test?

[filur]

And whats the CPU usuage using ASIO?What was in your test?

Around ~26-28%, running Cubase SX3.

I guess it's fair to say LFS would never need/use the complexity offered by Cubase, thus load would drop quite a bit.

[Honey]

What i'm saying is everyone has an ASIO card, even integrated $0.5 chips.

Attached is a realtime recorded clip of my budget realtek chip on my budget motherboard playing 9 channels of asio sound, using 6 different virtual instruments and 2 mastering plugins. At 16.6ms latency (DirectX).
oh you're right i didn't figured so many cards are asio now, all the time i watched specs of recent motherboards (even on asus site) there's no mention of asio support...:really:
so i guess that people with no asio hardware prolly have so outdated hardware that they will not run anything newer than windows xp.

[filur]

i guess that people with no asio hardware prolly have so outdated hardware that they will not run anything newer than windows xp.

If LFS is using DirectSound, anyone who has sound in LFS could also run DirectX ASIO. Simple as that. It's not nearly as effective as native ASIO support of course, i think most if not all Creative cards these days have native ASIO, so a Creative card owner could run sound at ~2 ms latency. :)

The ASIO SDK was still completely free and without any form of royalties last time i checked.

[Shotglass]

If LFS is using DirectSound, anyone who has sound in LFS could also run DirectX ASIO. Simple as that. It's not nearly as effective as native ASIO support of course

so in other words its all done in software which of course isnt exactly the best idea in a game that loads the cpu as much as lfs does

[filur]

so in other words its all done in software which of course isnt exactly the best idea in a game that loads the cpu as much as lfs does

And this is somehow different from the current system? :)

[Shotglass]

And this is somehow different from the current system? :)

you got me there :)

not exactly but if its a asio emulation it might make a difference

[AsterX]

Has anyone else tried unlocking with the 64 bit version of Vista?

I tried with the first version of patch U and I couldn't do it: I'll try with latest patch U19...

[isamoretto]

retired

[isamoretto]

retired

[StuntCarRacer]

I ported the sound test program to SDL library. With SDL I get a stable sound at 0.02 latency, on Vista, using a built-in Intel sound card. It is even almost stable at 0.01s, with rare audible cracks only when the system is heavily loaded.

Unfortunately using SDL does not really solve the problem, as SDL does not have an API to report playback position. It uses a callback mechanism. When it needs another chunk of audio data, it calls a user function. The easiest way is to generate sound in the callback based on whatever is happening at the moment on the screen - but then you loose temporal resolution. There are ways to improve the resolution, such as writing information about sound events to a log, with a time stamp of each event, then playing the log in callback, streching or shrinking gaps between events as required. However, it may add unneeded complexity.

SDL uses DirectSound API on Windows. It seems to use IDirectSoundBuffer::GetCurrentPosition to find out what is being played. I think this is a viable replacement for waveOutGetPosition. It does not seem to be affected by the Vista bug, and I guess it can be easily adopted without big changes to the program logic.

As a side note - both waveOut and DirectSound position reporting APIs are not very accurate. Undetermined amount of time passes between the driver getting position information from the hardware, and the information finally reaching the application. Time spent in context switches, interrupts, other tasks. ALSA solved this problem many years ago by providing a time stamp at which the position was sampled, thus allowing the application to determine the current position by extrapolation, with high accuracy. The same method is used in Vista's WASAPI.

If you are interested in the SDL based sound test, it is available from my SVN repository (https://lampka.siedziba.pl/svn/repos/Sound_Test/). The repository can also be browsed using a web interface (https://lampka.siedziba.pl/WebSVN/listing.php?path=/Sound_Test/).

[Scawen]

Thank you for the information :up:

I will look into these methods and consider the use of a callback function, etc...

[hardcoreobscure]

Has anyone had any luck unlocking on x64 yet

Ive tried with the latest build but get the same result as everyone else

Ive had no problem unlocking on the x64 WinXP Pro before but Vista seems to throw up new issues with file creation or something :shrug:

Ill keep trying...

[AsterX]

I tried with the latest build too, but it still doesn't work.
I also put lfs dir in my documents folder and still can't unlock, even running it as an administrator.

I think we would have to wait a fix for this...

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Im just downloading the RC1 Build of Vista32bit , i will test U/U20 as soon as its installed and test unlocking and sound issues. :thumb:

[arco]

Pre-RC1 you mean. I have it installed and tried with patch U. Music in setup screens and in-game works just fine. but engine sound is totally gone. It's dead silent. :( Have not tried unlocking and patch U20.

[arco]

Well, got engine sound back by increasing sound lag to 0.25.

[ORION]

Well look at the tread title :D
We know about the sound problem, and microsoft isnt going to fix thix bug on their side.

Interesting to see would be:
1. does unlocking work on PreRC1 32bit? (likely it will work) (confirmed - works)
2. does unlocking work on PreRC1 64bit?

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Confirmed

Vista (TM) Pre_RC1 Build 5536 (32bit) Unlocks succesfully :thumb: (LFS Version U20)

Sound problem is still there.:shrug:

[dawesdust_12]

Good to know Al :) Oh, and wanna know something sorta dumb, yesterday I found my Vista CD key... :S

[Absy]

I am unable to unlock it(not sure which patch) on Visra 32bit Build 5600 aka the RC1 any help?

[ORION]

Take a look at the footer line of the main menu. unlocking for Vista was added only at patch U7 or something, so its very likely you are using a patch that cant unlock on Vista.

[Absy]

Cheers for the reply i installed u20 and it works :)...still have one problem FFB doesnt work with it i have a Logitech Momo Racing. Even if FFB doesn't work i at least want to be able to turn the Centre spring off i cant even though i unticked the turn on box.

[testdriver-2004]

Hello, sry 4my bad english..

i have problem whit live for speed and windows vista..

i can not start Live for speed :(

Probable error in graphics driver

is the error msg..

i have patch u20..


pleas help..


i have drivers for my graphic card install :(

[testdriver-2004]

i can not start LFS...

i press the Icon and :Probable error in graphics driver



i have load LFS new

new lfs download: Could not detect any suitable screen modes


my icq: 74111

[AndroidXP]

And this only happens since the patch? :really:

This is very probably a problem on your side, make sure that you have proper GFX card, Monitor and DirectX drivers installed. Everytime I've seen this error on these forums it was one of the three drivers missing/not up-to-date.

[testdriver-2004]

hmm...

i see..


drivers for windows vista:

Radeon® 9500, 9550, 9600, 9650, 9700, 9800, X300, X600, X700, X800, X850 series



i have 9600SE

this is the problem? i phone whit ati..

[kel64]

hmm...

i see..


drivers for windows vista:

Radeon® 9500, 9550, 9600, 9650, 9700, 9800, X300, X600, X700, X800, X850 series



i have 9600SE

this is the problem? i phone whit ati..

Your card is supported. Install the latest drivers. If you have any more problems, please make a new thread as this isn't really related to the patch :thumb:

[trackah123]

well i just installed Windows Vista Ultimate RC1 Build 5600 (x86 32-bit) (1 september 2006 build) and LFS U20 works just fine in single player and online.. i have a geforce 6800LE and i used beta nvidia vista drivers.. also unlocking to S2 worked without any problems.. :thumb:

since vista is pretty heavy the fps was alot lower compared to XP .. also i noticed a huge difference in FPS when it comes to single player vs multiplayer.. multiplayer is alot slower then single player.. :shrug:

[Scawen]

well i just installed Windows Vista Ultimate RC1 Build 5600 (x86 32-bit) (1 september 2006 build) and LFS U20 works just fine in single player and online.. i have a geforce 6800LE and i used beta nvidia vista drivers.. also unlocking to S2 worked without any problems.. :thumb:Thanks for the report. How about the sound lag? Did you hear the car engines ok?
And if so, have you changed the Options... Misc... Sound Lag setting, or is it at default?

[trackah123]

Testing it out now.. ill edit the post as soon as i finished testing..
I have a Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite pro and i'm using the "Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi series Vista Beta Driver 2.10.0000"

In control panel Sound options and Dxdiag DX10 it seems all ok sound is working in vista..

update : ok this is weird.. the main music runs fine.. but ingame you cant hear the engine sound when you set the lag (at misc options) lower then about 0.20) ... 0.26 works for me without pops and clicks in it..
also you really need to disable the sidebar feature of windows .. no transparent gadgets in front.. or it will be even worse :)
compatibility mode makes no difference.. also without vista eye candy makes no difference either in sound lag..
well this is what i could do for now.. ill see if i can find anything else to hopefully make it work below the 0.26 lagsetting

[ORION]

Please note that the current nvidia and ati drivers are rather basic - without any tweaks and optimizations (thats also the main reason for the small file sizes).
Im sure the performance problems will be reduced a lot with drivers for the final vista release, even though the fps might still be a tad lower because of all that stuff running in the background and eating ram and cpu for breakfast...

[trackah123]

Yeah i know.. vista ultimate takes up about 500 - 700mb of ram by default with about 34 processes running..

error below sometimes occur in vista and it has something to do with the soundblaster creative x-fi beta vista drivers

=========
Busted App
There were 24 unreleased IDrvAdapterMgr/IDrvDevice/IDrvProfile interfaces :pillepall
=========

Update : i disabled like 90% of all vista services.. (also stopped them) and it still takes up 485MB ram and 25 processes.. i still couldnt go lower then 0.25 secs with the LFS soundlag. i have tried all options. i guess only registry tweaks could be a last option but im not that advanced.. scawen i hope this info was useful to you :)

maybe some nice windowsupdate. videocard or soundcard driver update for vista will solve it? who knows

[trackah123]

just wanted to let you know i posted on soundblaster forums (vista section) about this racing game.. i did not mentioned the name of this racing game because im not sure wether that is allowed. some forums sees it as advertising..

anyway my nvidia drivers on vista are made for RC1 but the soundblaster x-fi drivers i have installed are actually 2 months old (june 2006) and its not really made for this build of vista but its still a vista beta 2 driver.. so maybe that could be the problem why vista has so much soundlag in LFS

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=Vista&message.id=1440&jump=true#M1440

[Scawen]

If you have Windows Vista 64-bit version (which means you can't unlock yet) please can you run this small program you will find in the attached zip file. It will show a little info which will be helpful for me.

Please attach a screenshot of the results or you write out the text manually if you prefer.

I've attached a screenshot of how it looks in Windows XP, but that's not very useful.

[ EDIT : I've removed the program - there is an update here : http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=229160#post229160 ]

[arco]

Here you go Scawen.

Taken on Vista 64-bit RC1 build 5728.

[badeend]

here is mine screenshot for you scawen good luck:shy:

http://rapidshare.de/files/35266014/screen.jpg (http://rapidshare.de/files/35266014/screen.jpg)

sorry forgot'n to say i have vista ofcourse :D

[AndroidXP]

*Just reattached badeend's image, because rapidshare sucks*

[Scawen]

Thanks for the tests - they are helpful.

Please try again with this new attached version. If one of the C or D tests work, then we will have a solution.

[ EDIT : Removed the program - solution not found yet ]

[badeend]

http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=17484&stc=1&d=1159878804

here you go whit the new test :D

[AndroidXP]

Damn, no solution yet :(

[badeend]

nope :schwitz: scawen can you tel us the problem? is it a connection problem to the server or something alse?

[AndroidXP]

Maybe it has something to do with some encryption algorithms, which rely on being used on a 32bit system. I think it must be something like this, as it wouldn't make any sense that unlocking works on 32bit Vista, but not on the 64bit one.

[badeend]

yea you are making a point there:P but isnt there a way to run lfs in 32bit mode or something?

[Scawen]

Thanks for the tests. It's clear that a solution is not yet found.

No, I don't want to go into detail about this. The first rule of security is not to discuss exactly how it works in public. :D

But don't worry, we'll get there in the end. I have some things to follow up and people to talk to. I'm also trying something with the sound bug.

[Victor M Aldecôa]

Do you have a preview for when are you going to have a solution?

I want to know if is it better to back to Windows XP, or I can wait until the solution without my S2 account on the Windows Vista 64bit. It's very boring to install a new OS, and have to back to the other so soon. Too many hours wasted.

Thank you in advance,

Victor Aldecôa.

[StuntCarRacer]

I'm also trying something with the sound bug.

I started a project to translate winmm calls used by LFS to directsound. The idea was to make a DLL than implements these calls, and then just modify LFS binary to import this DLL instead of winmm. Unfortunately the project stalled due to several reasons. I have too much other work recently, and I no longer have any Vista machine, thus I no longer have much motivation to work on it. There's not much done, only the patching utility, and all the needed calls stubbed out, so the patched LFS runs but without sound. I realize the usefuleness of it is near zero, anyway, here it is:

https://lampka.siedziba.pl/WebSVN/listing.php?path=/lfsdsound/

[Scawen]

Do you have a preview for when are you going to have a solution?Well that's really hard to guess because I am dealing with issues where the answer is not yet known. I'm currently working on the Vista sound problem as well, and finishing the auto patching system. All I can say is that I hope that the next test patch will be ready not long after mid-month sort of time.

[St4Lk3R]

Well that's really hard to guess because I am dealing with issues where the answer is not yet known. I'm currently working on the Vista sound problem as well, and finishing the auto patching system. All I can say is that I hope that the next test patch will be ready not long after mid-month sort of time.


sounds great! good luck!

[dawesdust_12]

Scawen, wouldn't a good test for the Auto-Patching Be to release a dummy patch, whose job is strictly to patch to Patch V?

[Scawen]

The auto patcher will be tested by you before we get to Patch V.

That means there must be at least 2 test patches before V.

[Renku]

The auto patcher...
I assume it can be turned off, or will it start to download in the middle of the race and then asks me to restart LFS :scratchch.

There isn't a "auto" anything running on my PC!

Edit: Nice system :nod:.

[Scawen]

When you click for a list of games, and there is a new update available, the master server tells LFS to tell you there is a new update available, plus a description, and a list of possible download sites (mirrors).

You can choose one of the mirrors, or click cancel. If you click a mirror, the file is downloaded, LFS exits, the patch is unzipped automatically and LFS is restarted.

It's completely unintrusive and fully informative, because I also don't like software that does things without asking me.

[Bob Smith]

Sounds sweet. So we get the auto-patch test version, and then test that by auto-downloading patch V, right? :p

[axus]

Sounds sweet. So we get the auto-patch test version, and then test that by auto-downloading patch V, right? :p

The auto patcher will be tested by you before we get to Patch V.

That means there must be at least 2 test patches before V.

No, we'll test it on U22. Read the thread, Bob. :x :p

[Bob Smith]

No, we'll test it on U22. Read the thread, Bob. :x :p
You're no fun.

[zurdospeed]

...If you click a mirror, the file is downloaded, LFS exits, the patch is unzipped automatically and LFS is restarted....

Hi, are the new patches going to download to the LFS root folder? Are they then deleted or could we move that zip afterwards to another location? Ive got all patches and test patches since S1H in a folder.

Great idea BTW :thumb:

[badeend]

maybe an idee to stay into this subject? the Vista problems and not the patch thing guys

[ORION]

But don't worry, we'll get there in the end. I have some things to follow up and people to talk to. I'm also trying something with the sound bug.

I guess that makes everything clear :)
nothing to do really, until sc contacted some people and tested the unlock stuff. Then he will most likely post a small minor additional not-so-important install-if-you-want-to-test-unlocking-with-vista test patch here :D

[Scawen]

It's supposed to fix ALL the Vista problems!

Please let me know if the sound works!

And if you can now unlock in Vista 64...

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=232956#post232956

[JohnUK89]

There is still a slight bit of audio distortion on my Vista installation under U21, a few pops and crackles, and other issues related to the sound lag setting in U20 and backwards.
Scawen, did you hardcode the Sound lag at a particular value? Because that will most likely cause problems. Each person's system requireds a different sound lag value under Vista, for example mine needed to be at 0.26s, while one of my friends had to have theirs at nearer 0.4s

[Scawen]

Well, it's a completely different system and there is no such thing as sound lag any more - and that is why the slider has been removed. It's not hard coded, it's just removed completely. LFS now send packets of sound, when Windows tells it that it's time to send another. The guesswork and prediction has supposedly been removed.

How bad are the pops and crackles now? Are they happening constantly as you drive around, or is it just occasionally, here and there?

[JohnUK89]

The pops are pretty much constant, I hear the car for about 3/4 of a second, then there'll be a few pops, then the car for 3/4 of a second again. It's bearable, but an annoyance.

[Scawen]

I've done a U22 update which may give different results.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=232956#post232956

[Dredd]

in vista 32bit, the sound is worst than ever before, can't even play it now with the cracking using patch u22, before I used sound lag 40 that was okish, but sounds like it’s on 24 or something

EDIT
after playing with options bit more with 'sound block' setting it to 3 4 or 5 remove that cracking sound, now sounds are much better than having full sound lag on, but its worst when car is not moving and changing between the settings don't help at all :(

EDIT AGAIN: ;)
Cracking sound only happens when you’re close to the barrier, sounds perfect when car is in middle of the track with nothing else around it

[trackah123]

i just installed the latest testversion (Windows Vista RC2)

"vista_5744.16384.061003-1945_x86fre_client-lrmcfre_en_dvd.iso"

unfortunately i have installed the sound blaster x-fi vista drivers dated from 12 juli 2006 (old ones) since they havent developed new x-fi drivers for RC2..

but i'll give LFS a try with U22 and report details back here soon :)

[Scawen]

Thank you all for your help with Vista.

The Vista unlocking is now fixed, starting with Patch U21 / U22.

The new sound issues seem to affect XP as well as Vista, or it's cured on some Vista installations, or... whatever, actually we can't see a pattern yet. We may not have any Vista specific problems at all now. So I will start a new thread to discuss U22 sound, and I'll close this thread now.