Removing the S1/S2 separation

[Chaos]

What about this: Should someone download the full sized S2 (since all track/car data is there), allow him to connect to every server. Then when the person is connected to that server, then according to his license status allow/disallow them to connect to the race.

This way everybody with S1 license could watch the racing in S2 full, see .mpr replays from leagues etc.

Allow the users according to the "level of unlocking" enter the tracks/cars.

Leave the demo as it is now. "Merge" S1 and S2 only...

Example> A user has the S1 license. He connects to a server with SouthCity Classic, where the people race the FZ50, but with S1 license LX6 is available, so he can join. He could race against the FZ50, but would not be allowed to drive it, not until he buys his S2 license.
Should this user connect to a server with Aston, then he could only spectate.

I think this way the community would only benefit from it, yesterday I saw some S2 servers running Fernbay tracks with GTi/GT... But for users with S1 license only its not possible to join that server. Although they could.

Your ideas?

[(SaM)]

People connecting to servers to watch the server would suck bandwidth off from the host. That sucks. And the demo racers arent even paying for it.

Being able to watch replay files from S1 or S2 by anyone is another story and shouldnt be that hard. But what is 24 Pounds to be able to see and drive all? :)

(Funny fact: while trying to type the POUND sign, I launched LFS because I pressed ALT + L; my LFS shortcut! I forgot about it! Oh happy days!)

[rich uk]

exactly, you get what you pay for. purchase S1 + s2 and get S1 and S2 content :)

[Chaos]

Ok, let the demo users out, but with the S1 license only, there are not many servers and why don't let them see S2? Or join a S1 track and see S2 cars flying by? There are some S2 servers with S1 track (BW,FE,SC..) and with GTi/GT, why shoud the person with S1 license not be able to join?

And it would be a good marketing move, cause people say £24 is too much. Buy S1 license for £12, see what it is like in S2 and very likely he will buy S2 too...

[Phlos]

LFS devs will not do this for security reasons. It will be a lot more easy to crack LFS if whole content is already decrypted :pillepall

[Chaos]

LFS devs will not do this for security reasons. It will be a lot more easy to crack LFS if whole content is already decrypted :pillepall
he? why shoud it be decryped? :pillepall

[Gabkicks]

Ok, let the demo users out, but with the S1 license only, there are not many servers and why don't let them see S2? Or join a S1 track and see S2 cars flying by? There are some S2 servers with S1 track (BW,FE,SC..) and with GTi/GT, why shoud the person with S1 license not be able to join?

And it would be a good marketing move, cause people say £24 is too much. Buy S1 license for £12, see what it is like in S2 and very likely he will buy S2 too...

that would be nice if lfs was like that :)

[Phlos]

he? why shoud it be decryped? :pillepall
How you think the game will show S2 cars (or tracks ?) if the content is not decrypted ? :shrug:

[Chaos]

How you think the game will show S2 cars (or tracks ?) if the content is not decrypted ? :shrug:
well I don't know how it's done... if the S2 code is encrypted or if there is some oher kind of lock... do you?

and if you red further posts, i suggested to leave the demo out... only merge S1 and S2 this way... cause if you have unlocked S1, a part of the code is unlocked/decrypted...

[RAYfighter]

Let's not forget the main reason of Chaos' suggestion - demo or S1 players will see how cool it is to have S2 cars, and that will change their "I would buy licence but have no money" to the "damn I MUST get those 24 pounds no matter what!!".
Another thing I would like to see is the skin autodownload feature working at demo servers too - many demo players wondered how and IF does it work. Now they will see a licenced racer with custom skin passing by and have another good reason to buy the licence. :razz:

[avih]

The original post is a VERY good suggestion IMHO. I think It'll contribute so much the spread of LFS, since everyone will be able to appreciate the full potential of this great game (ehmm, sim ;) )

To summarize: everyone download a single latest version (S2 full alpha P2 ATM) with full content, Everyone can replay/watch/connect to all servers. Everyone has skin download, etc. Limitation apply only to driving specific cars on specific tracks (ATM different for demo/S1/S2 players)

My only concern is indeed the bandwidth consumed by spectators. The spectator/drivers ratio might even turn positive or even very positive (i.e. much more spectators than racers). To that, the solution might be that if a driver cannot race on a specific server (i.e. not any combination of his allowed tracks/cars), He'll be automatically redirected to an "LFS viewing server", such server will hold a single "spectator" connection to each working racing server and therefore will not consume bandwidth/driving-seats for the race servers.

If we expand the idea even further, the "LFS viewing server" might propagate chat messages from the viewers to the actual race server, and will allow virtually limitless number of active spectators on any race server.

This is not something that can be implemented in a week though. But IMHO, it would be VERY much worth it.

my $0.02
avih

[tinyk]

Let's not forget the main reason of Chaos' suggestion - demo or S1 players will see how cool it is to have S2 cars, and that will change their "I would buy licence but have no money" to the "damn I MUST get those 24 pounds no matter what!!".

That's what the teaser vids are for. They can find more reasons to buy in the movie section of the forum. :)

Another thing I would like to see is the skin autodownload feature working at demo servers too - many demo players wondered how and IF does it work. Now they will see a licenced racer with custom skin passing by and have another good reason to buy the licence. :razz:

If you buy cable the company doesn't give you all the channels without a premium. You have loads to watch already with the basic channels but if you want the 'bells and whistles' you pay. It all comes down to if you think it's worth the investment and to me buying an S2 license is. :)

~*~*~*~tiny~*~*~*~

[ORION]

Yes it's worth the investment (of course :D)

Imo Choas has spotted a very important point here, because it's simply true that S1 racers cant race as almost everyone has either S2 or the demo, thus the S1 servers are quite empty, if they exist at all.

My ideas how to "fix" this would be:

1. allow S2 racers to drive on S1 hosts without losing the additional S2 features, and without seperating the server list. Just "licensed" or "not licensed".

2. make a spectator function IN LFS, with the engine itself, that allows everyone to watch ALL races. This would be especially nice for the "pro" drivers, who drive in leagues (i.e. ESL pro series), and will want to build a fan community like in other popular games such as Warcraft3 or Couter-Strike.

[-SieN-]

Yes, I think a feature that would make spectator-servers possible, which use their own bandwidth instead of the raceserver's bandwidth would be great! :)

[snewham]

It jsut wouldn't work. The majority of demo users are wreckers and NFSU players and ruin racers. If you allowed them to connect to S2 servers and only use S1 cars then S2 would have no good races.


Demo also uses a totally different system and has no damage and so it wouldn't be compatable.

End of story

If you want S2 content, by S2. It's 12 pounds.
:schwitz:

[Nitemare]

Phlos is right.. if s1 or demo users had access to all track and cars (even if they couldn't drive them!) that will make lfs much more vulnerable to cracks...

but merging the serverlists from s1/s2 into one is a good idea... users could still only see and join servers with the content of their unlock level... so for instance s1 users would only see servers with s1 tracks and cars, but s2 users will see all available servers in one list

[XCNuse]

.. i think that would be a mess seeing every sever on the list; not only would it take forever to get the whole server list (anyone remember the early months of S1, when we had to wait minutes to get hte list of servers.. and by then they changed however much ... not good times)

the ability to have options, and filters such as choice between Demo/S1/S2.. is good, cause then you know what the server is running, rather than thinking your joining an F/R race, only to find out someone bumped you and then complained and banned you isntantly.... not to wise imo

server list is fine the way it is; now all it needs is the ability to filter tracks

[Chaos]

.. i think that would be a mess seeing every sever on the list; not only would it take forever to get the whole server list (anyone remember the early months of S1, when we had to wait minutes to get hte list of servers.. and by then they changed however much ... not good times)

the ability to have options, and filters such as choice between Demo/S1/S2.. is good, cause then you know what the server is running, rather than thinking your joining an F/R race, only to find out someone bumped you and then complained and banned you isntantly.... not to wise imo

server list is fine the way it is; now all it needs is the ability to filter tracks
i think you missed the point... Allow users with S1 license to join S2 servers, but only if the track is compatible with S1 allow them to join and race with S1 car only (although there may be some S2 racers on the server using a S2 car). Otherwise spectate only...

[Bob Smith]

I agree with tempting S1 users to spend more money.

The demo is fine how it is, althought the GTT should still be swapped for something else IMO.

[(SaM)]

Seriously, I'd hate to see people connecting to my 512k server (wich can only handle 8 people lagfree) and they just watch. I hate being watched. Especially when it sucks my bandwidth and less people can join. :pillepall

[JJ72]

One thing bothers me, seems that S2 players think they are above everyone because they paid, and don't care about the experience of those who still plays S1 and the demo, thinking that their racing will be "ruined" because of these players, but isn't the LFS community also formed by these players?

If you are going to grow, going to get popular, then you have to in the end open up and trust these people, you can't just close yourself up in this little world and fear about people you never raced will come destroying your world, can you?

I mean....this idea is very good because it brings racers of different level together, and that's the point of making a multiplayer sim isn't it? you have private host options, you have car choice option, you have dedicated host functions, if the host are properly moderated then things can be just as fine - just face it wreckless racers are also in S2, paying 24 pounds doesn't nesscarily make someone a good driver.

The core of these issues isn't about how much you paid, it's the same problem which exists in every multiplayer game, and you can't solve it just by isolating yourself form the "outlaws", if you believe that your live for speed experience makes you a better driver, than you should also trust that it will work for the others too, if you have absolutely no trust in others, then just run your private game.

[Chaos]

Seriously, I'd hate to see people connecting to my 512k server (wich can only handle 8 people lagfree) and they just watch. I hate being watched. Especially when it sucks my bandwidth and less people can join. :pillepall
well then where is the problem? limit your server to 8 conns only... Even now anyone with S2 license can drop by your server and watch...

[snewham]

One thing bothers me, seems that S2 players think they are above everyone because they paid, and don't care about the experience of those who still plays S1 and the demo, thinking that their racing will be "ruined" because of these players, but isn't the LFS community also formed by these players?

If you are going to grow, going to get popular, then you have to in the end open up and trust these people, you can't just close yourself up in this little world and fear about people you never raced will come destroying your world, can you?

I mean....this idea is very good because it brings racers of different level together, and that's the point of making a multiplayer sim isn't it? you have private host options, you have car choice option, you have dedicated host functions, if the host are properly moderated then things can be just as fine - just face it wreckless racers are also in S2, paying 24 pounds doesn't nesscarily make someone a good driver.

The core of these issues isn't about how much you paid, it's the same problem which exists in every multiplayer game, and you can't solve it just by isolating yourself form the "outlaws", if you believe that your live for speed experience makes you a better driver, than you should also trust that it will work for the others too, if you have absolutely no trust in others, then just run your private game.

No that's where you are wrong. Not paying members should not be able to view / drive in S2 servers as this would be a disadvantage to the drivers that are paying.

Who is more important to the Devs do you think? paying or non-paying members?

Tehre is nothing wrong with the system at the moment. It works exactly the same as any other game. You don't see NFSU servers when you are playing their demo and you can't join their races so I don't see the value of this.

It would be great for demo users but then it wouldn't really be a demo would it? the idea of a demo is to give people a tempory view and an idea of what the full version is like so that they buy it, not to give them full access to view and race in s2 servers. Then all you are doing is paying for better cars and not access to a better quality and better community of racers.

The idea is completely flawed imho

[Chaos]

It would be great for demo users but then it wouldn't really be a demo would it? the idea of a demo is to give people a tempory view and an idea of what the full version is like so that they buy it, not to give them full access to view and race in s2 servers. Then all you are doing is paying for better cars and not access to a better quality and better community of racers.

The idea is completely flawed imho
?? Obviosly you didn't read the whole post/thread... I said and edited the first post and said, let demo out of this... only merge S1 and S2...
maybe let demo users watch .mpr from S2, but that's it..

EDIT> oops you reacted JJ72'sto post... but still, you don't see that the demo user will not use the whole S2... He could only watch... He could still only drive on Blackwood with F/R/T... so the only thing they would get, is to SEE S2 in its full glory...

[Nitemare]

well then where is the problem? limit your server to 8 conns only... Even now anyone with S2 license can drop by your server and watch...problem is, that s1 users who come just to watch, block space for s2 users who want to play...

anyway,, i think the complications this feature would bring will outweight the gain from it...

[Chaos]

problem is, that s1 users who come just to watch, block space for s2 users who want to play...
IMO it's not a big problem limiting the number of S1 spectators on a server with S2 track to 2 per server maybe...

[Chaos]

anyway,, i think the complications this feature would bring will outweight the gain from it...
well name some of these complications...

[snewham]

IMO it's not a big problem limiting the number of S1 spectators on a server with S2 track to 2 per server maybe...

The idea isn't viable. The system is fine the way it is at the moment. Demo is to get a taste of it and S1 is for a little bit more, s2 is for the whole package.

It would be so much more work for the devs and it would only benefit the people who are so tight they can't pay out 12 pounds for an S2 licence.

Devs have more important things to do than that.

[Nitemare]

well name some of these complications...
1] mainly the security issues, as was already pointed out... if you can see decrypted cars and tracks in game, you are just few variables away from getting complete acces to them

2] need for altering communication protocol of lfs, to allow "just spectating" connections

3] more bandwidth usage for master server, and s2 servers

4] i can imagine, that if there was an option in server setup for specifiing amount non-s2 users on server, most admins will put it to zero anyway...

[Hummer]

Well I think everybody can buy S2, who really wants to, 12Ł is not that much. And the free demo is more than enough to show what you'll get, so I don't see the sense of this idea. :pillepall

[Chaos]

The idea isn't viable. The system is fine the way it is at the moment. Demo is to get a taste of it and S1 is for a little bit more, s2 is for the whole package.

It would be so much more work for the devs and it would only benefit the people who are so tight they can't pay out 12 pounds for an S2 licence.

Devs have more important things to do than that.
well I don't think it is a big problem from programmer's point of view...
And you are wrong that only those with S1 license would benefit from it...
S2 license holders almost don't go to S1 servers (unless to meet a friend), so there would be more servers with TBO, LX4, FR in S2 (not many of these in S2 nowadays).
AND
From the customers point of view: Well what the hell 12 pounds are fine, I'll pay that, but 24? Naah too much... So with my suggested system, this guy would enjoy S1 (with a lot more drivers than there are now in S1), but from time to time he would see a FZ50 passing him, then the RA, etc. Give him a month a he pays the other 12 pounds..

[snewham]

1]
4] i can imagine, that if there was an option in server setup for specifiing amount non-s2 users on server, most admins will put it to zero anyway...

exactly, and how many servers are there in S2 that even have S1 cars enabled?

and minus from that the servers who's admins don't want S1/demo users on their server

and you're left with oh ... umm.. 1 or 2 servers. And the devs are going to spend time to implement this why??

[Chaos]

1] mainly the security issues, as was already pointed out... if you can see decrypted cars and tracks in game, you are just few variables away from getting complete acces to them

2] need for altering communication protocol of lfs, to allow "just spectating" connections

3] more bandwidth usage for master server, and s2 servers

4] i can imagine, that if there was an option in server setup for specifiing amount non-s2 users on server, most admins will put it to zero anyway...
1, if you have half the code decrypted, then there is no prob decryptyng the other half. Imo not a problem to check (server side) license = used car (as are cars checked for tweaks)

2, imo not needed, just a switch using the race full block: S2 track, S1 connection -> race full, you can't join

3, questionable, but I don't think it would be that much...

4, why would they? even now there can only be 20 cars in the race, but many servers have 23 conns allowed...

[snewham]

1, if you have half the code decrypted, then there is no prob decryptyng the other half. Imo not a problem to check (server side) license = used car (as are cars checked for tweaks)

2, imo not needed, just a switch using the race full block: S2 track, S1 connection -> race full, you can't join

3, questionable, but I don't think it would be that much...

4, why would they? even now there can only be 20 cars in the race, but many servers have 23 conns allowed...

why are you still arguing?

it is a bad idea because it is impracticle, time consuming and not needed.

[ORION]

Demo also uses a totally different system and has no damage and so it wouldn't be compatable.
:pillepall :Looking_a

Did you know there is also a S2 demo? :really:

[KiDCoDEa]

that has been thought about in early stages but the downsides clearly outweight the good sides.
avis will have to do, to show s2 content at a distance to a demo tester.

[snewham]

:pillepall :Looking_a

Did you know there is also a S2 demo? :really:

err yes i did.. it does use a different system cause it has different cars and tracks. whatever, i don't really know how it works lol but I do know that it would mean a lot more work for the devs than they are doing already and it is not needed or wanted.

[Chaos]

exactly, and how many servers are there in S2 that even have S1 cars enabled?

and minus from that the servers who's admins don't want S1/demo users on their server

and you're left with oh ... umm.. 1 or 2 servers. And the devs are going to spend time to implement this why??
exactly, this way we would have more "S1" severs... There was a cry for a diverse "serverfield" before... Or don't S2 licensed users want to drive the TBO class, Lx4, etc. anymore?
and please leave the demo out... now we are talking about merging S1 + S2 only...

[Chaos]

why are you still arguing?

it is a bad idea because it is impracticle, time consuming and not needed.
because i don't think its a bad idea, not much time consuming and it would be useful for everyone who paid for LFS...

EDIT> moderators, please change the global topic to S1/S2 only (delete "demo/") Thanks..

[snewham]

exactly, this way we would have more "S1" severs... There was a cry for a diverse "serverfield" before... Or don't S2 licensed users want to drive the TBO class, Lx4, etc. anymore?
and please leave the demo out... now we are talking about merging S1 + S2 only...


TBH, if there was demand for more S1 servers, then S1 teams or players would pay to get servers put up on S1 themselves. The last time I looked there was a very little amount on there which shows that there obviously isn't a high demand for them.

And obviously no they don't want to drive S1 classes anymore due to the new S2 classes/cars. People would much rather drive them.

I run 3 different servers and I definetlely wont be supporting, let alone enabling any kind of option like this.

[Chaos]

TBH, if there was demand for more S1 servers, then S1 teams or players would pay to get servers put up on S1 themselves. The last time I looked there was a very little amount on there which shows that there obviously isn't a high demand for them.

And obviously no they don't want to drive S1 classes anymore due to the new S2 classes/cars. People would much rather drive them.

I run 3 different servers and I definetlely wont be supporting, let alone enabling any kind of option like this.
Who said anything about demand for S1 servers? I've seen S2 servers with GTi/GT on FernBay just yesterday and there were 9 drivers there, what I am suggesting, allow S1 only licensed drivers join the race on such a server.

well that's your opinion, but I would like to see someone elses too... or am I the only one wanting to have all kinds of car classes on servers?

[Nitemare]

Who said anything about demand for S1 servers? I've seen S2 servers with GTi/GT on FernBay just yesterday and there were 9 drivers there, what I am suggesting, allow S1 only licensed drivers join the race on such a server.with this i agree... just enable people with s1 to join s2 servers, BUT only those with s1 content specified... and if server admin changes server specs to allow s2 content, s1 users will be kicked

[Chaos]

with this i agree... just enable people with s1 to join s2 servers, BUT only those with s1 content specified... and if server admin changes server specs to allow s2 content, s1 users will be kicked
well that's excatly where my idea originated... then it continued to: why kick them, let them spectate...

[-wes-]

Hey I really like this idea,should be quite workable.

s1/s2 differ only by content its not like a 2004 vs 2005 edition of a game so.

A race at blackwood that allows all cars(or an s1 car) will allow s1 people to join and race with s1 cars, and they get to see the new s2 cars going past them in most cases. :D

s1 drivers cant join s2 tracks or servers with s2 cars only allowed.( not even to watch s2 cars only; at an s1 track)

There is no need for server options to set s1/s2 mode, in fact you wont need to alter the server code at all. The client will decide what car and track you can use. It does this allready so there is no added security risk.

s2 users have no more right to race with an s1 car at an s1 track than s1 drivers, I dont see why you want to kick them for an s2 driver.

Remember you pay for added content not privilege, no first and second class citizens please.

None of this s1 drivers connecting to an s2 track and being able to spectate, they can see the track layouts and the car specs at the main website.


If you start to think of s2 as an expansion pack you realise that this is way it should have been in the first place.

[tristancliffe]

I paid for S2, and quite simply I don't want people being able to race in my servers if they have paid less than me.

There are plenty of screenshots, movies and members that show that S2 is a step forward over S1. And demo users should be happy to have the worlds finest racing game for free (although only parts of it).

[snewham]

I paid for S2, and quite simply I don't want people being able to race in my servers if they have paid less than me.

There are plenty of screenshots, movies and members that show that S2 is a step forward over S1. And demo users should be happy to have the worlds finest racing game for free (although only parts of it).
exactly

[Chaos]

I paid for S2, and quite simply I don't want people being able to race in my servers if they have paid less than me.

There are plenty of screenshots, movies and members that show that S2 is a step forward over S1. And demo users should be happy to have the worlds finest racing game for free (although only parts of it).
well again... if you race at Aston with any car, the people would not be able to join (maybe spectate, if allowed), but tell me, where the hell is the difference if you set up a race on FE Green with the MRT5, why the person who paid for the S1 content shoud not be able to join? He has the same right as you, to be there!

Or are you thinking: I paid 12 pounds more so why should I race this lowly "not even driver" who has not? He's some kind of rubbish that I don't want to come into contact with?

[snewham]

you shouldn't be able to get any kind of S2 content if you haven't payed for it. That includes spectating.

[Chaos]

you shouldn't be able to get any kind of S2 content if you haven't payed for it. That includes spectating.
Well then no spectating... Just allow those with S1 license to drive on S2 server with FE Green and MRT5 set up...
am I talking to a wall or what? :shrug:

[Chaos]

and another thought: should they be allowed to spectate, what kind of access to S2 is that? The only thing you gain is that you envy those who can race, but you can't > in time you will buy S2...

[ORION]

Isn't the main question qiute simple?
Allow S1 racers and S2 racers to drive together on a host if the content is only S1?
Seriously, where is the problem there?
Just remember, S1 guys are no demo drivers, and they will not be more of a wrecker then the S2 racers.
The other thing is a way to allow users spectate a game. Allowing them to join the actual server will not be a good idea due to spam etc., but a spectator tool is already there, and Scawen has (iirc) already said that it would be nice to be able to spectate a race that also looks like the game, and not like a tool with 2d graphics.
Spectating must be more like a "Live MPR".

:)

[tristancliffe]

well again... if you race at Aston with any car, the people would not be able to join (maybe spectate, if allowed), but tell me, where the hell is the difference if you set up a race on FE Green with the MRT5, why the person who paid for the S1 content shoud not be able to join? He has the same right as you, to be there!

Or are you thinking: I paid 12 pounds more so why should I race this lowly ... who has not? He's some kind of rubbish that I don't want to come into contact with?

The difference is that I am S2 and he/she is S1 licenced. If I want to race against S1ers, then (as I have paid more) I can choose to do that. If S1ers want to race S2ers, then they can just pay more.

I don't care if they use the same track, same cars, same damage, same language. The point is that as they are not S2 licenced, they do not get to race on S2 servers. Simple.

As soon as they cough up more money for the devs to improve S2, then they are 1000000% welcome to race me and every other S2er.

[Chaos]

The difference is that I am S2 and he/she is S1 licenced. If I want to race against S1ers, then (as I have paid more) I can choose to do that. If S1ers want to race S2ers, then they can just pay more.

I don't care if they use the same track, same cars, same damage, same language. The point is that as they are not S2 licenced, they do not get to race on S2 servers. Simple.

As soon as they cough up more money for the devs to improve S2, then they are 1000000% welcome to race me and every other S2er.
well just tell me how you can tell the difference wheter you race a S1er or a S2er, when you are both on one server...
btw it sounds you think that people with S1 license only are somewhat lesser racers than S2...

[snewham]

well just tell me how you can tell the difference wheter you race a S1er or a S2er, when you are both on one server...

because one has payed for the right and one hasn't

[Chaos]

because one has payed for the right and one hasn't
for what right? S1 licensed has the right for S1 content. What's wrong allowing them on S2 sever with S1 content??
Or do you think they don't have the right to race with you because you are S2 licensed? That's imo lame...

[Doorman]

I for one can't think of ANY other demo for ANY other game that gives so much as LFS. The system works like this. Play the demo > either (a) love the demo and keep playing it forever for free (b) love the demo, buy the bloody game FGS! or (c) hate the demo, uninstall it and never give it another thought. Job done.

EDIT: Not the best of first posts, but hey!

[Chaos]

I for one can't think of ANY other demo for ANY other game that gives so much as LFS. The system works like this. Play the demo > either (a) love the demo and keep playing it forever for free (b) love the demo, buy the bloody game FGS! or (c) hate the demo, uninstall it and never give it another thought. Job done.
I have abandoned the idea of demo users taking part in this... S1 and S2 licensed only...

[snewham]

for what right? S1 licensed has the right for S1 content. What's wrong allowing them on S2 sever with S1 content??
Or do you think they don't have the right to race with you because you are S2 licensed? That's imo lame...

S1 licenced > S1 content and S1 & demo servers

S2 licensed > S2 content and S2, S1 & demo servers


if you don't have S2 then you don't have the rightto experience the S2 cars. If you allow them on the server then they can hear, smell and touch the S2 cars and that nearly defeats the point of buying an S2 licence.

[(SaM)]

The S1 days have lasted long enough. People that still only have S1 should pay the 12 pounds or face it that they're only S1 licensed.

[Chaos]

if you don't have S2 then you don't have the rightto experience the S2 cars. If you allow them on the server then they can hear, smell and touch the S2 cars and that nearly defeats the point of buying an S2 licence.
are you serious? :really:
you can hear them in videos, see them in the viewer...
and (at least for me) the main thing is driving those S2 cars on those S2 tracks...
which they would not be able to do without the S2 license...

and please read what Orion said (http://www.lfsforum.net/showpost.php?p=1241&postcount=51)... he got the idea... you obviously didn't...

[ORION]

Would you want to drive a car you have seen on a photo, or one that has just passed you with 250 km/h?
;)
But this is not the main point, it's all about allowing the users to drive together if they are actually racing on the same tracks and in the same cars.
The idea to let racers join a server and race against people with a higher license is not so easy to realize in LFS (security reasons), but in real life it works, and I think this is actually where Chaos got the idea from :)
At many instant race tracks, which are open to the public, you will see all kinds of cars lapping together. Best example: the mysterious Nordschleife *giggles*

[-wes-]

The difference is that I am S2 and he/she is S1 licenced. If I want to race against S1ers, then (as I have paid more) I can choose to do that. If S1ers want to race S2ers, then they can just pay more.

I don't care if they use the same track, same cars, same damage, same language. The point is that as they are not S2 licenced, they do not get to race on S2 servers. Simple.

As soon as they cough up more money for the devs to improve S2, then they are 1000000% welcome to race me and every other S2er.

They have already paid for lfs development, you paid an extra £12 to get access to extra cars and tracks.

By your logic fuel/pitstops/tire ware/and the updated s1 tracks should be denied to thouse with just an s1 licence.
And I would be happy for this to be true as the old version of s1 still exists, the problem is that s1 got one last makeover which just happend to use the same code as the full s2. The s1 people have got a free upgrade allready you will never know if your racing an s1 driver or not. So I really dont care if s1/s2 drivers can mix.



Maybe the s1/s2 seperate content should be gotten rid of. You want lfs in its current state it will cost £24 no Option to buy just part of it or old versions.

[L(Oo)ney]

The point people are trying to make, is that there isnt any point in anyone buying S1, because there is no-one to race.

Allowing S1 licensed people play on S2 servers, which only has S1 options set, is a good idea.

It gives the S1 people someone to play with, so that their £12 they spent isn't wasted.

[Chaos]

The point people are trying to make, is that there isnt any point in anyone buying S1, because there is no-one to race.

Allowing S1 licensed people play on S2 servers, which only has S1 options set, is a good idea.

It gives the S1 people someone to play with, so that their £12 they spent isn't wasted.
Yes, that's the point! And I would leave the possibility to buy LFS in 12 pounds steps... It's just in people's nature. If it costs 24 pounds they will not buy it. Let them pay the 24 pounds in 2 steps some days/weeks/months apart and they will eventually pay... It's somehow simmilar to buying a car on a lease...

[cannonfodder]

As of the writing of this post, there are exactly four S1 specific servers online, all using the BL GP track, all private, and all empty. Meanwhile there are:

28 S2 Blackwood public servers with at least one S1 car enabled.
9 S2 South City public servers with at least one S1 car enabled.
15 S2 Fern Bay public servers with at least one S1 car enabled. Four of which have no S2 cars enabled.
2 S2 Autocross public servers with at least one S1 car enabled.
As far as online multiplayer goes, S1 users are getting shafted. Those who buy S1 as a way of testing the full product before committing to S2 will only see a paltry amount of empty servers. How is that supposed to encourage them to buy a multiplayer game? If they could race on the above servers with their S1 cars they would actually have a chance to race the cars they paid for against other people and they would help a lot in filling out the S2 servers, the majority of which are empty most of the time.

I have also observed a growing attitude of elitism and divisions into first-class and second-class citizens. Frankly, it disgusts me. To judge someone as being not worth racing against by how many tracks and cars they bought, regardless of how fast and clean they can drive is the most pathetic kind of discrimination I have seen.

[ORION]

Now I'm curious what the devs say about this problem, which is actually a very serious one!
All S1 racers are simply f***ed because they can't play the game they have paid for.

[JJ72]

1. S1 racers can drive S1 cars in S2 servers if it's allowed, so they won't waste bandwidth.
2. When they do so, they encourages S2 players to play the S1 cars too, that helps the diversity problem. (doesn't people always complain about everyone driving GTR and FO8?)
3. Having a bigger pool of player is always a good thing.
4. Me myself, I am running a dedicated server for just road cars.

5. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY.

Allowing S1 player to join S2 server is an act of promotion, and there's NOTHING AS TOO MUCH PROMOTION. You can say we are already giving them enough, of course, but don't you realize the number of potential customers is still very big for S2 even now? There're still many racers that we can attract in this stage of the game. We can even wipe off the demo if we like, but isn't us the one who suffer? If you don't see the potential buyers and value them appropriately then the grow of the game will soon come to a halt, it's fine with S2, because it's 24 pounds and cost the same as most games, but what will happen when S3 is out? Will you still expect people to suddenly jump to S3?

Don't remember S2 isn't an end, it's just a stage of development, what we need is a strong foundation, what we invest right now will payoff when S3 is out, I urge you to have a wider vision and acknowledge the value of such act.

[JJ72]

you shouldn't be able to get any kind of S2 content if you haven't payed for it. That includes spectating.

OH YEAH.

Spectating a race is no different from watching a live video broadcast, now tell those S1 payers to stay away from the S2 screenshot section, S2 movie section, oh even S2 discussion threads too......because they didn't pay, eh?

[JJ72]

And yeah Chaos maybe you can remove the word "demo" from the thread title now.

[1993S14]

How you think the game will show S2 cars (or tracks ?) if the content is not decrypted ? :shrug:

:iagree:

[Chaos]

And yeah Chaos maybe you can remove the word "demo" from the thread title now.
I tried, but I can't... Only moderators can...
:iagree:
If you have bought S1, part of the code is decrypted, why not decrypt the whole? It's no problem not allowing S2 cars and tracks in another way...

EDIT> added a poll..

[Nitemare]

If you have bought S1, part of the code is decrypted, why not decrypt the whole? It's no problem not allowing S2 cars and tracks in another way...no problem for you, because you are not programming LFS ;)

i think just allowing s1 racers on servers with s1 content will be a lot easier to implement, and the time that it saves can be used by scawen to do more important stuff, like physics :thumb:

[tailing]

I think they should either remove the option to buy a new S1 license or set it somehow so that if a dedi server is only using S1 content then it's flagged or something as an S1 server. It would still be in the same server list for S2 players so that they will see it and possibly join. If the admin wants to change something and allow some S2 content he will get a warning saying that doing so will disconnect all S1 drivers.
If they continue selling S1 licenses then they should make a note for people saying that the vast majority of people are either on the demo or S2 and that they might not be able to adequately test out the multiplayer aspect.

To be honest though I think the simplest thing is to stop selling S1 licenses, paying the full price for S2 is not expensive and it just creates confusion. S1 is the old S1 to me, the new S1 is more like S1.5.
I think everything would be so much simpler if there was just S2 and the S2 demo. People who own S1 can still unlock it as they do now but stop selling new S1 licenses.

[Chaos]

I think they should either remove the option to buy a new S1 license or set it somehow so that if a dedi server is only using S1 content then it's flagged or something as an S1 server. It would still be in the same server list for S2 players so that they will see it and possibly join. If the admin wants to change something and allow some S2 content he will get a warning saying that doing so will disconnect all S1 drivers.
If they continue selling S1 licenses then they should make a note for people saying that the vast majority of people are either on the demo or S2 and that they might not be able to adequately test out the multiplayer aspect.

To be honest though I think the simplest thing is to stop selling S1 licenses, paying the full price for S2 is not expensive and it just creates confusion. S1 is the old S1 to me, the new S1 is more like S1.5.
I think everything would be so much simpler if there was just S2 and the S2 demo. People who own S1 can still unlock it as they do now but stop selling new S1 licenses.
Well why remove the option to buy the game in parts? For you 24 pounds is maybe not much, but there are people for which it is and they are not willing to pay it at once... Buying the game in parts seems to partially solve this...

[ORION]

..and you can't force the people who have already bought S1 not wither pay for S2 or leave LFS.

[tailing]

No one said anything about forcing anything, if you already own S1 your fine but there's very little reason to continue selling S1 licenses, particularly when circumstances make it virtually an offline only test.

[sil3ntwar]

There shouldnt be a demo/s1/s2 option before the server list. It should just show every server that you can join based on what content you have paid for. The only problem is when s1 racers are racing on a server when the admin decides he wants s2 cars/tracks.

[Chaos]

No one said anything about forcing anything, if you already own S1 your fine but there's very little reason to continue selling S1 licenses, particularly when circumstances make it virtually an offline only test.
well this suggestion brings the S1 license holders back into multiplayer... and I say again, for a lot of people it's far more better to buy things in parts...

[-wes-]

wow a lot of you must of had a bad week!
There wasn't 38% of spoilsports when I last posted,maybe I missread.

Anyway just had a thought; can s1 drivers upload hotlaps to lfsw?
If they can, its another blow to thouse who say no.

[Chaos]

wow a lot of you must of had a bad week!
There wasn't 38% of spoilsports when I last posted,maybe I missread.

Anyway just had a thought; can s1 drivers upload hotlaps to lfsw?
If they can, its another blow to thouse who say no.
Seem so... I'm a bit dissapointed for so many 'no' voices... I thought the main reason for everyone here is to have some nice races in a friendly community, but now it seems that there is a number of people who think they are something more since they paid 12 pounds more... :thumbsdow
What's wrong with the choice no.2 in the poll??

[Ferrari LFS]

S1 racers for S1 servers... :nod:

S2 racers for S2 servers...:nana:


Lots of good ideas etc. etc. but at the end of the day if you have paid for an S1 license you should only race on S1 servers. It's like saying "oh well, let the people who haven't paid join in for free because LFS is a community!"

I agree in principle that perhaps S1 racers should be able to see S2 servers that are running S1 tracks with S1 cars but it's not the way it is, those are still S2 servers for S2 licensed racers. It's only £12 and the developers derserve every penny from the upgrade, why the hell would the developers want to spend many more hours integrating the two versions for nothing, i think they would rather spend their time working on bug fixes or maybe looking into the world of S3!

S2 is only a £12 upgrade... the game/sim is well worth it!



Well thats my 12 quids worth :thumb:

[Chaos]

S2 is only a £12 upgrade... the game/sim is well worth it!

you are forgeting the newcomers who have to pay £24.. and for some of them its too much to pay at once...
but with S1 license only, there is no multiplayer... check S1 servers nowadays...

[ORION]

Chaos you could program a bot replaying always the same text :rofl:
seriously, it's absolutely not funny... But im confident that the devs will have a good solution for that :)

[Ferrari LFS]

you are forgeting the newcomers who have to pay £24.. and for some of them its too much to pay at once...
but with S1 license only, there is no multiplayer... check S1 servers nowadays...


I wasn't forgetting newcomers, i was talking about upgrades...

However my statement still stands...


S1 racers for S1 servers :nod:

S2 racers for S2 servers:nana:


IMO: S2 at £24 is a quality price...

[Chaos]

They have paid to use the S1 content, but they can't use the main part of LFS, the multiplayer. There are S2 servers with S1 content only, why can't they join and use the content they paid for??

[Victor]

i'm not giving any answer to this thread here, but i just wanted to note that all of the people who posted in this thread are S2 licensed, except for 1 guy, Gabkicks.

no-one has mentioned yet that _it actually is a problem_. So, is it? So far I'm not convinced it is. Why are the S1 hosts empty? Maybe because there are barely any active S1 racers in the first place. So why should we go through the trouble of rewriting the whole unlocking code, to provide a non-existing usergroup with an additional feature?

Just shining light from a different perspective here.

[Lible]

Remove requested by Moderator :P

[Nitemare]

S2 wil be cracked anyway, by :moped: , so there is no different.this is absolutely irrelevant, because even if there would be a crack for online play, you couldn't use it to connect to official servers...

[Lible]

IM ABSOLUTELY sure that they cant play in servers, even if this feature would be added(but it wont)

[-wes-]

Well I think most of us knew that there weren't that many s1 drivers playing at the moment.

But only you the dev's will know how many s1 drivers are left out of the total that have bought lfs at some point.

If there is about 30% it may be worth doing to tempt them into paying for s2.

If its about 5% then its time to ditch the option to buy s1 and just leave the upgrade option for existing s1 drivers.

If there are only 10 s1 drivers left; give them a free upgrade! :yikes: And remove all refrences to s1...

It's a pity that this thread didn't show up before s2 was released, as I think the whole idea is mute now.

[tailing]

well this suggestion brings the S1 license holders back into multiplayer... and I say again, for a lot of people it's far more better to buy things in parts...

I heard you the first time, hence me saying 'very little reason' because I don't consider that a minority of people being unable to pay 24 pounds at once much of a reason to continue selling S1. There's also always budgeting and saving up for things.
All I'm saying is all things considered if it were up to me I'd remove the option to buy S1 but of course it's not up to me.

[Takumi_Project.d]

If you want S2 content, by S2. It's 12 pounds.

Amen Brother! I remember upon deciding to get S1 or not, i checked out various videos people had made from it and you could more than get an idea for what you were in for.

Same goes for S2, there are the ACE promotional videos and also fans are making their own excellent ones all the time.

If you want S2 content, by S2. It's 12 pounds. :)
what else can you get with 12pounds..........

[J_luo88]

True that. LFS demo users and S1 licienced drivers have access to S2 Content movies which should be enough for them to buy it as well as all the chat that occurs in the chatbox, so if they want S2, they should pay the extra 12 pounds. Well worth it definately!

[Fonnybone]

S2 wil be cracked anyway, by :moped: , so there is no different.

Ok, you want to take that outside, or do you want me to do it ?! :really:

[Smasha_D]

The licence system is fine ... you get the content you pay for :)

With the way LFS's development is, it should have been expected that S1 would all but die when S2 was released

What i do think is missing from the demo however is a GTR class car ... understand this is questionable not wanting to give demo racers too much content ... but on several occasions introducing friends to LFS, they were not convinced to buy S2 based on the GTT.

Having the XR-GTR in the demo would more accurately reflect what S2 is all about imo :tilt:

It could also be considered the one concession for the few remaining S1 licence holders gaining a piece of S2 and tempt them to upgrade ... ?

[Woz]

S2 wil be cracked anyway, by :moped: , so there is no different.

LOL, even if you could crack the game to unlock you would not be able to play online at all so there is no point cracking LFS.

[Cue-Ball]

As was said earlier in the thread, I don't think this is the case at all. There are already a TON of movies out there that show the S2 cars and tracks. Anyone who's got the demo can easily see what they're missing out on. Most of the people who play the demo are doing it because they're too cheap to buy the full game. Many of these guys have been playing the LFS demo for months or even YEARS with just three cars and one track. Allowing them to spectate S2 races isn't going to magically make them pony up the money for the full version.

Other than the fact that wreckers are so common, the demo is just fine as it is.

[KeiichiRX7]

Best idea ive heard so far is to merge the lists. Let me clarify a little

No option to select which liscence level

Demo users get demo servers.

S1 clients see S1 servers (s1 being those with only S1 content available)

S2 clients see S1 and S2 servers in a single list (no marking for differentiation)


this idea allows S1 users to at least race on servers that are populated and simply makes the s1 content only servers in s2 unneccisary.


This is probably the simplest solution, and the one that will make the most people the happiest. S1 racers get thier races, s2 drivers get to keep thier elitist separation (keeping S1 drivers out of S2 races).

if its an s2 based server running only S1 content i fail to see the harm in letting someone who paid for THAT content use it. A nice appology popup would be nice if the server changed to a non-s1 track, but thats just being nice.

in short, one server list, populated servers, happy customers

[jtr99]

And it would be a good marketing move, cause people say £24 is too much. Buy S1 license for £12, see what it is like in S2 and very likely he will buy S2 too...

Do people really say that? In a world where XBox games sell for up to 50 pounds, does anyone seriously argue that 24 pounds is too pricey?

[Nitemare]

Do people really say that? In a world where XBox games sell for up to 50 pounds, does anyone seriously argue that 24 pounds is too pricey?
problem is that in some countries you have to work a lot longer to earn 24 pounds, than in others...

[Rotary]

People connecting to servers to watch the server would suck bandwidth off from the host. That sucks. And the demo racers arent even paying for it.

Being able to watch replay files from S1 or S2 by anyone is another story and shouldnt be that hard. But what is 24 Pounds to be able to see and drive all? :)

(Funny fact: while trying to type the POUND sign, I launched LFS because I pressed ALT + L; my LFS shortcut! I forgot about it! Oh happy days!)

So whats the differene between a race that has 15 spectators and 5 racers and the next race that has all 20 people racing? I don't see how that could logically suck bandwidth off the host because at the end of the day the total number of people is still 20.

If anthing, I believe spectators probably use less bandwidth because their car positions don't need to be updated to the other racers, therefore, that to me seems like it would suck less bandwidth :)

I like the idea of S1 people being able to access S2 servers but limited to what is unlocked. I think the main issue is security though, I think I might have read something about this by a dev before but can't confirm that.

It would give the S1 people a taste of what they are missing... :thumbsup:

[B2B@300]

It would give the S1 people a taste of what they are missing... :thumbsup:

It would also mean that an S1 lic person could actually log on and use S1 content, not just see a ghost town :razz:

Plenty of us S2 Lic guys still enjoy the S1 content and do race those combos but we do it under demo mode or S2 mode, so anyone with S1 only is really not able to utilise it at all for online content :shrug:

[(SaM)]

So whats the differene between a race that..

Of course spectators suck bandwidth from the server.

Take an S2 server with 12 people racing. Now if let's say the S1 players weren't able to spectate, the server has to send and receive data from 12 players.

Now, if our 5 happy S1 players were able to spectate, that same server would now have to send data to 17 people and receive data from 12. -> more bandwidth used, causing a slower server than without spectators.

Simple math. :x
Just let them play the great demo, look at the quadripple million movies and screenshots of S2 and buy S2.

[B2B@300]

Of course spectators suck bandwidth from the server.

Take an S2 server with 12 people racing. Now if let's say the S1 players weren't able to spectate, the server has to send and receive data from 12 players.

Now, if our 5 happy S1 players were able to spectate, that same server would now have to send data to 17 people and receive data from 12. -> more bandwidth used, causing a slower server than without spectators.

Simple math. :x
Just let them play the great demo, look at the quadripple million movies and screenshots of S2 and buy S2.

Yes but a server that is set up for 20 connections can handle the extra spectators :scratchch and what rotary is saying is that if someone is specing then the server isn't sending you an extra packet for his car, so while the server is requiring a little more bandwidth (that it does have available) you as a racer on that server want be needing extra bandwidth for the extra guy specing :tilt:

BTW I don't think it's necessary for S1 Lic people to spec S2 content servers, but having S1 content servers and S2 servers in one list and only be able to join the server you have a lic for would be a good idea I think (especially when S3 comes along too :x)

[Blowtus]

I think letting s1 licenses race on s1 cars and tracks, but on 's2' servers, would be good. of course there are things that would need to happen for this to occur, that's why this is the suggestions forum and the devs decide what to do :)

[RevMonkey]

please, let the dead stay dead.... eerie zombie threads scare me :| (anyone watch diggnation?)

[(SaM)]

I see what you mean B2B@300, but that'd work on those 100mbit servers that can handle a full pack of racers and 5 spectators. But the thing is, most servers arent and it would be disadvantageous for those servers.

Haha, how is B2B@300 an email adress? stupid forum!

[KeiichiRX7]

OK, for a moment lets just put the spectation issue aside.

Is everyone agreeable to the idea of merging the lists?

[Anarchi-H]

i'm not giving any answer to this thread here, but i just wanted to note that all of the people who posted in this thread are S2 licensed, except for 1 guy, Gabkicks.

no-one has mentioned yet that _it actually is a problem_. So, is it? So far I'm not convinced it is. Why are the S1 hosts empty? Maybe because there are barely any active S1 racers in the first place. So why should we go through the trouble of rewriting the whole unlocking code, to provide a non-existing usergroup with an additional feature?

Just shining light from a different perspective here.

Missed this thread the first time around, but here goes...

Perhaps the reason this userbase doesn't exist is exactly because the S1 hosts are empty. Catch22 if you like. No one plays on the S1 servers because no one else plays on the S1 servers, and as for all of this "s1 server", "s2 server" distinction, it's all arse biscuits.

The users that should be allowed to join a race should be based purely on the content they have paid for (I think someone mentioned this earlier).
As such, if a server is running BLGP with the XRT & XFG then S1 & S2 patrons should be able to play.
If a server is running BLGP with XRT & FXR then only S2 patrons should be able to play because only they have unlocked the content.

The S2 content is NOT encrypted as some have seemed to point out so that is a non issue. Access to S2 content is placed purely on authentication with the master server.

Demo users are fine as they are, but any S1 customers are stuck with something they can't use as intended for either an oversight or a simple discrimination based on how much they've paid.

Why still sell S1 licenses when you know that the customer can't use the game as intended? I know I'd be pissed if it were me.

[Blowtus]

gah, I hate responding to bygone threads without realising...!! :)

[(SaM)]

Anarchi, there has been an S1 age for so many time already I say. It has lasted long enough for the mere 12 pounds.
Now though, it's time to move on to S2 if they wish. LFS is progressing.

[Anarchi-H]

Anarchi, there has been an S1 age for so many time already I say. It has lasted long enough for the mere 12 pounds.
Now though, it's time to move on to S2 if they wish. LFS is progressing.

*Edit* Fair enough... I just checked the site and they are no longer selling S1 licenses.

[Vain]

Let the S1-people come to the S2-servers, okay. But please don't let the demo-people into the S2-servers. I like blackwood and I like slower cars, but I don't like demo-crashers.

Vain

[Chaos]

Let the S1-people come to the S2-servers, okay. But please don't let the demo-people into the S2-servers. I like blackwood and I like slower cars, but I don't like demo-crashers.

Vain
This is where I would like to be able to change the thread name... It was mentioned before > leave the demo as it is, only merge S1/S2...
(moderator contacted...)

[cannonfodder]

*Edit* Fair enough... I just checked the site and they are no longer selling S1 licenses.
Shiver me timbers, you're right! So much for the 3-tier purchase setup. S1 was cheap by any standard and S2 is in the mid to low range of PC game prices. By the time S3 rolls around it'll be at the very high end of game prices. For us the upgrade will only be a low 12 pounds, but for new players it'll have lost the incentive of a low cost of entry with options for car/track expansions. :(

[Rotary]

Of course spectators suck bandwidth from the server.

Take an S2 server with 12 people racing. Now if let's say the S1 players weren't able to spectate, the server has to send and receive data from 12 players.

Now, if our 5 happy S1 players were able to spectate, that same server would now have to send data to 17 people and receive data from 12. -> more bandwidth used, causing a slower server than without spectators.

Simple math. :x
Just let them play the great demo, look at the quadripple million movies and screenshots of S2 and buy S2.

You obviously didn't read my post very well... I never said spectators don't suck bandwidth I said "... whats the differene between a race that has 15 spectators and 5 racers and the next race that has all 20 people racing?"

At the end of the day its still only 20 people in the one server isn't it?? I also mentioned that spectators *may* use less bandwidth, but I don't know that for fact.

You mentioned simple math, heres some for you.

20 + 0 = 20
15 + 5 = 20

:x

If a server is set up to handle 17 connections then how could what you posted be an issue?? Its not like anyone uses extra bandwidth just because they are S1 and not S2. If the server is set to take 17 then it doesn't matter at all, it can handle it 17 people. period. Simple math again isn't it?? :x

And B2B@300 post is a further explaination of my post.

So to clarify and make it simple... it wouldn't matter what type of license someone has thats in a server, if a server has 12 in it but set up to take 17 people and 5 S1 people join - how is that goning be worse than if it was 5 S2 people joining instead of the S1 people? At the end of the day its still 17 people in a server that is set up to handle 17 people.... think about it using simple math. 12 + 5 = 17...

[Rotary]

Further to my above post, this might help explain what I mean…

A live raft designed to handle 20 people is drifting in the ocean with 10 Australians onboard. They come across a group of 10 Irishmen alive but floating in the ocean. As the group of Australians approach the Irish they start to argue about if the boat can handle them:

“10 Irishmen will be too much of a burden to the boat” someone says.

… ??? … what, so another 10 Australians won’t be?? Where’s the logic in that?

10 + 10 = 20. The boat can handle 20 people. How would it matter if they are Australian or Irish? How does it matter if they are S1 or S2 licensed? If something is designed to carry 20 people, whether it be a boat or LFS server, then it doesn’t matter who they are.

I can’t make any logical sense out of your post on how it would be a burden to S2 servers, just like its not logical to think a boat with 10 Australians onboard designed to take 20 people can’t handle a further 10 because they are Irish… it just doesn’t add up. You said so yourself; 12 (S2 people) + 5 (S1 people) = 17 on the server. Well, 12 (S2 people) + 5 (S2 people) = 17 people on the server too. What am I missing? What would it matter? Since when is 17 not 17?

Anywho, this is pointless. I doubt there are even enough S1 people out there to warrant the recoding of LFS to makes this idea possible.

[xapexcivicx]

Shiver me timbers, you're right! So much for the 3-tier purchase setup. S1 was cheap by any standard and S2 is in the mid to low range of PC game prices. By the time S3 rolls around it'll be at the very high end of game prices. For us the upgrade will only be a low 12 pounds, but for new players it'll have lost the incentive of a low cost of entry with options for car/track expansions. :(
Well think about that, why would the devs want people to buy S1? They will be like "Yeah sweet, S1! Let's go online and race!"
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"...Where the hell is everybody!? F this game!"
:shrug:

[Rob76]

I voted for option three, but...

I think it may be good if an S1 and Demo user could be able to play S2 mpr replays offline. This would give them a glimpse of what they are missing, a chance to 'ride' in the cars and see the tracks without the problem of them using server bandwidth. This might get a few people who are currently content with the demo to actually cough up for an S2 license.