GTi Oversteering / Tale Happy ??

[silent_wind]

Hi ,

i havent been driving the GTi that much (i drive RWD's), till recently.. so after a quick try ,i noticed that the Gti has some weired behavor for a FWD car..it's kinda like pretty overteery no matter what the settings is , an example :

if you grab some supposidely good GTi setups and analyse their suspension setting , you'll find out they're set as a RWD car..to counter the overteer as it's usualy done on RWD's..

so , this is it , i wanted to know if you noticed the same thing about the GTi...

[Tweaker]

oversteer in a FWD car is not wierd behavior. For the few FWD cars I've driven all my life, it is something that really happens. It mostly happens when under braking from moderate or high-speeds and your steering becomes loose while in a corner. Most in corners it can happen if you are just not smooth enough. Trust me, it does happen.

As for the GTi having some constant oversteer, it is mostly due in part of the setups. Most fast setups, some drivers use the oversteer as an advantage, so they raise the rear tire pressures allowing a slight bit more stop speed, but ALSO to alleviate the minor understeer it would get if the rear was actually grippier.

All I can say is, you should try and do the following to get rid of rear oversteer in a FWD by:

-Lowering rear tire pressures, or allowing them to heat up a bit

-Softening rear suspension sometimes makes the handling better, but it can create some washy feeling and not be beneficial to handling. So your best idea is to soften the front like a real FWD car's suspension is.

-Work a bit on the differential settings, usually under braking, some differential settings are better than others.

-Brakes should be more forward, but not too much. Basically just work on your braking technique, and be super smooth.

[ajp71]

FWD cars by nature suffer from lift off oversteer with a very light rear :shrug:

[silent_wind]

alright , thx for your replies dudes.. how about the ARB settings on the GTi ? a while ago , we used to find some setups with soft front ARB and stiff rear ARB, i guess that's the logical way to set a FWD in general...but now , all setups have very stiff front ARB , is this normal on a FWD ?

[Flotch]

:pillepallit would be better to stop talking again and agin about the same bugs !!!
Yes FWD are completly unrealistic now, both for handling and setupping. Soft rear antiroll bar generate oversteer on throttle, and the locked diff is the only way to have something that can be driven with not too much crazy behavior of the engine when you are not in a straight line and full accelerating...

[Bob Smith]

Soft rear antiroll bar generate oversteer on throttle
Please, show me power oversteer in a FWD car with a neutral setup. I can't get it to happen in LFS...

[Flotch]

Please, show me power oversteer in a FWD car with a neutral setup. I can't get it to happen in LFS...
what is a neutral setup??

oversteer when accelerating : just watch some of my replay on SO with the ufgtr :
http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=3922
http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=3927
I guarantee you that I fought hard with the wheel to stay on the road :thumb:

[silent_wind]

:pillepallit would be better to stop talking again and agin about the same bugs !!!
Yes FWD are completly unrealistic now, both for handling and setupping. Soft rear antiroll bar generate oversteer on throttle, and the locked diff is the only way to have something that can be driven with not too much crazy behavior of the engine when you are not in a straight line and full accelerating... first off, i didnt know that people have been mentioning this point before..although, i made a thread from the way i see it and was hoping to get some proper answers to my "specific" query..furthermore, is my thread bothering you that much ? what's your problem anyway ? lose the attitude dude and get a life !

[Viper93]

...Soft rear antiroll bar generate oversteer on throttle...

I think he's trying to say that the oposite happens with FWD, I know that Dodge put a stiffer ARB in my SRT-4 to decrease understeer with the ACR package.

[Bob Smith]

what is a neutral setup??
One that neither understeers nor oversteers (when the clutch is in at least), so that effect engine braking/throttle can be observed accurately.

I'll attach some neutral sets over the weekend. :)

[silent_wind]

One that neither understeers nor oversteers (when the clutch is in at least), so that effect engine braking/throttle can be observed accurately.

I'll attach some neutral sets over the weekend. :) by the way bob , do you have some new setups that'd work with the new tire physics ? i'd really appriciate if you can drop me some of the XTT setups here.. thx in advance dude..

[Bob Smith]

by the way bob , do you have some new setups that'd work with the new tire physics ? i'd really appriciate if you can drop me some of the XTT setups here.. thx in advance dude..
I've been racing the GTT, can't quite get it sweet, it either understeers a tad or low angle drifts around the corners. Still fun though. :D Until the rear tyres melt :(

Practise will tame the beast. :)

[silent_wind]

I've been racing the GTT, can't quite get it sweet, it either understeers a tad or low angle drifts around the corners. Still fun though. :D Until the rear tyres melt :(

Practise will tame the beast. :) so that means you dont wanna share it anyway ? it can't be worse than mine i guess..but if you dont wanna give your setup, i'd understand... i'd try to understand actually :)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Yes FWD are completly unrealistic now, both for handling and setupping. Soft rear antiroll bar generate oversteer on throttle, and the locked diff is the only way to have something that can be driven with not too much crazy behavior of the engine when you are not in a straight line and full accelerating...

Don't act like it "impossible" IRL for a FWD to oversteer just because you're on the throttle. Obviously it happens for totally different reasons and it's not even the same phenomenon really, but it still can happen sometimes.:tilt: All it really takes is less grip at the rear than at the front, and that's not too hard to acheive, even in a fwd under throttle.

What "crazy behaviour of the engine" are you referring too? Winding out a bit when the inside wheel spins up due to little weight on it? That happens IRL too! Of course a locked diff alleviates that :shrug:

I don't mind criticism of LFS, I even dish it out on occasion! But to say the FWD dynamics are "completely unrealistic" is absolute rubbish to anyone with some intuition of physics.:nod: :really:

[Hallen]

The only thing I find to be a problem for me is the massive oversteer when you are letting off the brakes going into a corner. The rear just snaps around. I find this behavior difficult to drive with and I am not sure how to cure it. I think some drivers use this behavior to their advantage.
Even the Race_S set has this "feature".

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

The only thing I find to be a problem for me is the massive oversteer when you are letting off the brakes going into a corner. The rear just snaps around. I find this behavior difficult to drive with and I am not sure how to cure it. I think some drivers use this behavior to their advantage.
Even the Race_S set has this "feature".

:scratchch When letting OFF the brakes? Are you sure that it's letting off the brakes that initiating the oversteer or are you fighting the car before that? Is this under trailbraking? Or strictly pre-entry - then you lose the car on entry having already let off the brakes?

[AndroidXP]

Sorry for OT, but, I also want to hear a happy tale :(

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

LOL, more like Tales from the Crypt

[NotAnIllusion]

:scratchch When letting OFF the brakes? Are you sure that it's letting off the brakes that initiating the oversteer or are you fighting the car before that? Is this under trailbraking? Or strictly pre-entry - then you lose the car on entry having already let off the brakes?
It happens to me frequently, mostly when trail braking, braking a little for a corner isn't a problem, it's when I come off the brakes the tail steps out immediately.

[KiDCoDEa]

a happy tale is always welcomed here.

[Shotglass]

oversteer when accelerating : just watch some of my replay on SO with the ufgtr :
http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=3922
http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=3927
I guarantee you that I fought hard with the wheel to stay on the road :thumb:

i dont see anything particularly fishy there ... actually its pretty much what id expect from throwing an fwd into a bumpy corner that bites a lot in the front and has very little grip on the rear
looks like perfectly normal ass dragging to me

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

LOL, I Guess FWDs drag their asses both literally AND figuritively....

Can't stop laughing at that term....

[J.B.]

It happens to me frequently, mostly when trail braking, braking a little for a corner isn't a problem, it's when I come off the brakes the tail steps out immediately.


Yes, I remember having this problem with some of the road cars a while ago. It seems that this is because in LFS you can induce understeer by trail braking if the slip ratio gets high while braking. I don't know how realistic this is though.

Try setting the brake balance further back.

[Shotglass]

It seems that this is because in LFS you can induce understeer by trail braking if the slip ratio gets high while braking.

hmmm interesting interpretation

I don't know how realistic this is though.

sounds realistic to me ... effect of going beyond the traction circle

[Hallen]

It happens to me frequently, mostly when trail braking, braking a little for a corner isn't a problem, it's when I come off the brakes the tail steps out immediately.

Yep, that is the situation. I have heard of an explanation for the physics of the behavior, but I don't have it happen on RWD cars and I have driven some sets that reduce the tendency. I was hoping somebody would have an idea. I have already tried moving the brake bias back further to the rear, I have it a 77% right now (GTi), but it has not helping much, if any.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

sounds realistic to me ... effect of going beyond the traction circle

Exactly. Lost grip is lost grip no matter how it's lost, it's still lost grip :drugs:

[Woz]

Yes, I remember having this problem with some of the road cars a while ago. It seems that this is because in LFS you can induce understeer by trail braking if the slip ratio gets high while braking. I don't know how realistic this is though.

Try setting the brake balance further back.

Could it be that the car is out of shape before you foot comes of the brakes and the change in balance just makes the situation worse? I have heard people report not hearing the wheels lock it only one does.

Watch you replay when you think it happens and see if the rear has steped out before you come off the brakes. Remember you will feel oversteer far later through your wheel you would feel the shift in G through your body that you would get IRL.

Also where people say induced understeer under tail braking I wonder if they have locked the wheels and do not realise as this would then cause understeer like effect?

[Shotglass]

Also where people say induced understeer under tail braking I wonder if they have locked the wheels and do not realise as this would then cause understeer like effect?

when youre trailbraking you can get understeer far before the wheels are locked

and if youre in that sort of situation and let go off the brakes the front will more or less suddenly byte again
now if youre an inexpierienced driver most likely you will have oversteered (as in turning the wheel too far) while understeering in the hope of somehow getting the nose to turn in linke this
the overall effect of this should be that the front suddenly pulls into the corner violently dragging the rear behind it

[col]

The only thing I find to be a problem for me is the massive oversteer when you are letting off the brakes going into a corner. The rear just snaps around. I find this behavior difficult to drive with and I am not sure how to cure it. I think some drivers use this behavior to their advantage.
Even the Race_S set has this "feature".

heh, oversteer when releasing the brake is very useful, but you have to learn how :). If brake too late and too heavy, or you're not smooth coming off the pedal, and turning the car, you can lose the tail - especially if you are driving a 'fast' setup.
First try altering your driving - brake a little earlier, and stightly less heavily, start releasing the brake earlier, but much slower - ideally you will only have completely released the brake just as you want to start increasing the gas :)
another thing is in a corner that you find too twitchy, try keeping a little throttle through the turn (just a touch, to keep the car balanced).

If you're still having problems, you can reduce the trailbrake oversteer effect with dampers: Front rebound +, Rear bump -
(one click each, and test - this will also add corner exit oversteer, so be careful)
(Make sure you're not locking a rear - try brake balance more forward)

Or make the whole car more understeery with sway bars and/or shock adjustments (will slow you down)

[XsX!]

The only thing I find to be a problem for me is the massive oversteer when you are letting off the brakes going into a corner. The rear just snaps around. I find this behavior difficult to drive with and I am not sure how to cure it. I think some drivers use this behavior to their advantage.
Even the Race_S set has this "feature".
my cooper s does that too, a lot i must say :)
light ass eheh
even the oversteer, i find it quite realistic, when comparing to my car with dsc off.

[Woz]

my cooper s does that too, a lot i must say :)
light ass eheh
even the oversteer, i find it quite realistic, when comparing to my car with dsc off.

Yep, Minis car get real tail happy :) but that is their charm

[tinvek]

every "great handling" fwd car i've ever driven, rode in, read about etc has had lift off oversteer which is naturally more pronounced if braking (unless the front wheels are locked), its this very charectoristic that forms part of the "safe" handling charectoristics that fwd cars possess, along with power on understeer.

ive even driven a few road fwd cars that have had power on oversteer but i sure as hell wouldn't recomend it for everyday use as it has a sting in the tail (pardon the pun) i.e. if your already power on and the tail is sliding , then how the hell do you stop accelerating without provoking a larger slide, metro turbo with faulty rear subframe bushes scared me more than any other road car ever has when it did this on some s bends at about 70 mph. of course for competition cars if you can dial out the power on understeer, you can accelerate earlier / harder through the bends and can usually live with the limited options for changing throttle position at the limit.

if your really finding the tail too loose then work on setup to make the tail stick more ( basically softer and less antiroll bar makes suspension stick more, harder and more antiroll bar makes it grip less, so firmer on front, softer on rear, this also keeps more wieght on rear when your slowing ) and move your braking foward ( if youve seperate pedals you can run with a severe front balance and tune it on the road by keeping some power on whilst braking but dont bother about that now).

also you can change driving style to stop oversteer, drive it like an old 911, i.e. brake / slow in straight line, turn in and then accelerate, its not as fast but its safe

[Fonnybone]

i.e. if your already power on and the tail is sliding , then how the hell do you stop accelerating without provoking a larger slide, metro turbo with faulty rear subframe bushes scared me more than any other road car ever has when it did this on some s bends at about 70 mph.

Reminds me of my first car, a Firefly Turbo, pretty much the same car.
The answer to the oversteer was a stab on the throttle which would
cause a 4 wheel drift, weeee :D , until it's scary again. :schwitz:

I'll have to try out the GTi/GTR more to notice this oversteer 'anomaly',
but seems most here have a valid point about the brake balance. If
your car understeers under braking, releasing the brakes would surely
allow the front to regain grip and logically making the rear suddenly
oversteer. Again, i haven't driven them anough to really know what i'm
talking about.

I'm still waiting for that happy tale ... :razz:

[Hallen]

heh, oversteer when releasing the brake is very useful, but you have to learn how :). If brake too late and too heavy, or you're not smooth coming off the pedal, and turning the car, you can lose the tail - especially if you are driving a 'fast' setup.
First try altering your driving - brake a little earlier, and stightly less heavily, start releasing the brake earlier, but much slower - ideally you will only have completely released the brake just as you want to start increasing the gas :)
another thing is in a corner that you find too twitchy, try keeping a little throttle through the turn (just a touch, to keep the car balanced).

If you're still having problems, you can reduce the trailbrake oversteer effect with dampers: Front rebound +, Rear bump -
(one click each, and test - this will also add corner exit oversteer, so be careful)
(Make sure you're not locking a rear - try brake balance more forward)

Or make the whole car more understeery with sway bars and/or shock adjustments (will slow you down)

Thanks for the tips. I do about a 1:34.4 around Blackwood in the GTi. Some sets, this effect is really bad, and if you are aggressive with your trail braking, you will have the rear step out. Yes, braking earlier and being very gentle coming off the gas helps, but you can't always to that in a race.

I found the MacEST set is very nice. It exhibits some of this tendency, but it is advantageous rather than unpredictable. So, a good set will fix this tendency without being so understeery, that it is not fast.