Ban Tobacco Advertising?

[southamptonfc]

I've seen loads of people with Ferarri skins with massive Malboro advertising on it.

Do people think that this game played by kids should be advertising cigarettes?

I know its something that is very difficult to prevent and I do smoke occasionally so don't accuse me of anti-smoker hysteria.

[tinvek]

hmmm tircky

whilst in theory id agree there ia the issue of realism especially with skins modeled on old car designs.

also it would be one hell of a job for someone to police every skin that was uploaded to lfs world

[Vain]

Do whatever you want on the skins as long as it isn't restricted by law. 'Nuff said.

I don't smoke cigarettes, but I don't mind the advertising.

Vain

[southamptonfc]

thats an interesting issue, becuase by law in england tobacco advertising is illegal and in many other european countries I think.

[Vain]

If it is really forbidden then Scavier are violating the law in distributing these skins online.

Vain

[duke_toaster]

If it is really forbidden then Scavier are violating the law in distributing these skins online.

Vain

No it isn't. I thought it was the skin maker's fault :shrug:

Do people think that this game played by kids should be advertising cigarettes?

Well, most F1 games blur out or remove the tobacco ads. But these skins are third party addons, which does not make them the responsibility of the devs!

[axus]

Errr... :really:
I really wouldn't bother. Who is gonna start smoking because they saw an advertisment on the rear wing of an LFS car? I'm no smoker but seriously... if you start smoking its gonna be for very different reasons to seing an advertisment on someone's skin.

[SKurjz]

no to censorship...

[TagForce]

If it is really forbidden then Scavier are violating the law in distributing these skins online.

Vain

So is *insert random p2p client* violating the law by allowing child pornography to be distributed? Is your provider violating the law by allowing you to access these illegal files? Or are YOU violating the law by turning on auto-skin downloads which may (or may not) result in the downloading of possibly illegal images?

Please, let's stick to racing online and NOT turn this into another MPAA/RIAA versus the big bad internet community.

I have a big problem with governments banning tobacco advertising (which in effect kills only the ones using it) but allowing alcohol advertising (which in effect kills the people that get hit by drunk drivers). It seems that they are more intent on keeping you from killing yourselves, than they are on keeping you from killing others. :shrug: (oh, btw, standing at a busstop for 10 minutes with an average of 10 cars per minute passing and 2 busses in 10 minutes is worse for your health than smoking 5 cigarettes... Just to put things in perspective).

[tristancliffe]

Does cigarette advertising actually cause people to take up smoking on anything more than the smallest scale? I think not. It might encourage people to CHANGE brands, but not start in the first place.

What causes people to start in the first place is usually curiosity combined with peer pressure. This can be at any age, from 10 to 80, peer pressure isn't confined to schools. So the way to reduce smoking is ban friends, bike sheds, the backs of shopping malls, and pikeys. Banning tobacco advertising won't make a difference the level of youth smokers, in real life or in LFS.

[Becky Rose]

If it is really forbidden then Scavier are violating the law in distributing these skins online.
Nope that's not illegal as the internet has no official nationality and case history (in the UK & I understand the US) proves it is the individuals responsibility to ensure that they are receiving legal content, and where they have unwittingly received illegal content do not click through.

Having said that they're so blatantly in the dock over trademark infringement they've not got a leg to stand on :)... Although I dont suppose any motor racing advertisers are going to argue over the free publicity :)

[TagForce]

What causes people to start in the first place is usually curiosity combined with peer pressure. This can be at any age, from 10 to 80, peer pressure isn't confined to schools.

Actually that's kind of how I got into LFS...
While waiting on RL (anyone remember?) forums, someone spotted LFS, which got me curious... Then more and more people pressured me into trying it... Which I did, and I've been hooked ever since.

[TagForce]

Nope that's not illegal as the internet has no official nationality and case history (in the UK & I understand the US) proves it is the individuals responsibility to ensure that they are receiving legal content, and where they have unwittingly received illegal content do not click through.


Missing the point though, they're not receiving illegal images, they're providing illegal images, which could be illegal in the country the server is hosted.

The internet is not a nation or souvereign country. It is, in effect, bound by the laws of the country in which the nodes reside. For example... It is perfectly legal to download copyrighted movies or music in my country... It is illegal to provide access to copyrighted movies or music in my country. So, I can download, but cannot upload. If I, however, go off shore into international waters, and create an island and declare that a country, and have laws allowing the uploading and downloading of these files. I could, basically, install a server there that downloads every file ever put on the p2p networks legally, and then upload those to my home computer in Holland legally... Nothing wrong with that, and I'm not breaking any laws. In fact, someone did something like that just to bypass country laws (bought up an oil rig in international waters).

[southamptonfc]

What if I had a rear wing with child porn on it?what if I had a rear wing with porn on it?what if I had a rear wing with a pair of t!ts on it?
My point is that legality is not the issue here, its what the writers of the game (hopefully motivated by their customers) think is acceptable. Personally I think it is morally wrong to allow tobacco companies free advertisment in games played by children but that is my opinion.</p>

[TagForce]

What if I had a rear wing with child porn on it?what if I had a rear wing with porn on it?what if I had a rear wing with a pair of t!ts on it?
My point is that legality is not the issue here, its what the writers of the game (hopefully motivated by their customers) think is acceptable. Personally I think it is morally wrong to allow tobacco companies free advertisment in games played by children but that is my opinion.</p>

That would make for some really weird positions on the rear wing...
All jokes aside... Without getting into the legal issues with tobacco advertisements, here's what the devs say on the upload page:


DO NOT upload skins which contain offensive images!
If a skin that contains nudity, pornographic, racist or any other extremely offensive content is uploaded, the skin(s) will be removed without notice and you will no longer be allowed to upload skins here.


Now for the moral part... You'd ban tobacco advertisement, but wouldn't mind the devs having huge FOSTER'S/McDonald's/Domino's/Martini billboards around the tracks?

Edit: Reading the devs' statement again I wonder if an image of the prophet muhammed would be considered offensive, while an image of jesus doing stuff with George W. wouldn't (I just watched that southpark episode again, yes) :P

[southamptonfc]

yeah, thats kinda my point, there's a grey area in everyones oppinions. They have already stated what isn't allowed and if it were me I'd just add tobacco to that list.

[Becky Rose]

I find McDonald's morally wrong. Their "produce" is manufactured in a chemical plant and is targetted at children. Their modus operandi is to gradually reduce the health of the nation, then take the profits to the shareholders (still privately owned if I recall?) who then funnel the excess into charitable donations to that blue whatever it is charity run by the I.R.A. to "free small nations from oppressive regimes". The fact that McDonalds could legally advertise in LFS and it would be considered accepteable is to me, as a peace hugging hippy with Irish blood, extremely offensive.

And you're worried about Tobacco adverts?

The world is messed up, there's far bigger things to worry about than perceived influences on children by the politically correct brigade. The facts are non-smoking parents generally produce non-smoking offspring and smoking parents generally produce smoking children.

As the child of two smokers, one of which is a chain smoker, I spent years suffering at the dinner table not allowed to leave until I was finished being choked and unable to breath with my eyes watering. In this day and age it would be considered wrong - and quite rightly - but what made me smoke was exposure to it, not bright coloured logos. What made me give up was that *shudder* advert where the fat gets rolled out of veins and it's like ... yuk!

What makes a kid demand to be taken to McDonalds is bright colours, exactly what LFS offers.

I say ban McDonalds, then worry about less serious but politically correct issues like tobacco sponsorship later.

Should we also have adverts for the NSPCC on our cars? Just incase we can reach a child being abused?

LFS is a racing game and tobacco sponsorship is still, at this time, a part of racing. It's an international community, let's be international about it.

Anyway, is the server really in a UK data centre? Probably, but are we sure? And who cares apart from a bunch of liberal left wing tree hugging dykes?

[MAGGOT]

I've seen loads of people with Ferarri skins with massive Malboro advertising on it.

Do people think that this game played by kids should be advertising cigarettes?

I know its something that is very difficult to prevent and I do smoke occasionally so don't accuse me of anti-smoker hysteria.

I find this post offensive, and would appreciate if this topic were added to the list of things not allowed to be discussed on this forum.




As far as I'm concerned, anyone who buys/does something because they saw it on a car or billboard, etc. is weak minded, and deserves what they get. May sound harsh, but I'm sick of people placing blame on other people for their shortcomings.

Music doesn't kill people,
Games don't kill people,
Tobacco ads don't make people smoke.

[Becky Rose]

Missing the point though, they're not receiving illegal images, they're providing illegal images, which could be illegal in the country the server is hosted.
Being an internet relay is not a crime, the LFS master server is merely passing on an "email". The point of origin of the skin is the author who uploaded the skin.

One could therefor argue it is the skin author who must adhere to local tobacco advertising legislation.

In 2008 (I believe, or did it get extended) it will then become illegal to broadcast tobacco advertising INTO the UK, that's a whole other issue though - but i'm not sure who that ligislation will deem to be at fault when it goes live.

[TagForce]

Being an internet relay is not a crime, the LFS master server is merely passing on an "email". The point of origin of the skin is the author who uploaded the skin.


Hence the big Napster lawsuit... Hence the taking down of several dozens of torrent sites around europe... Being an internet relay may very well be a crime... In the case of torrent sites, the actual data is not even on the server, it is merely a link to a file containing hashcodes. LFSW is not a relay, simply because the content is monitored. A relay means content is not stored but only relayed to its final destination. LFSW is storing the content long-term.

The point of origin of that collection of mp3s you have on your M3U list is some bloke who got hold of the CDs... That didn't make you any less of a criminal for downloading them in the UK... (I love being dutch)

(being totally unrealistic, but in theory I could package a file into a jpeg of 512x512, that would be untouched by LFSW, which could then be downloaded by a friend of mine on a private server. He could then recreate the original file, and LFSW would in fact become a filesharing hub)


One could therefor argue it is the skin author who must adhere to local tobacco advertising legislation.


Yes, and no... Yes, if history proved you right in your statements above... Unfortunately, they haven't, so there's really no argument. Precedent dictates that the downloader is at least partly responsible for the content on his/her PC. In almost every country that every had an internet lawsuit.

[sweetreid]

I don't know if home made skins illegally using copyrighted tobacco logos qualifies as advertising.

Tobacco ad laws are crap, people can make up their own mind one way or the other.

[TagForce]

I don't know if home made skins illegally using copyrighted tobacco logos qualifies as advertising.

LMAO... To add another point of discussion to the thread... Do we have a lawyer in the house?

[Becky Rose]

Do we have a lawyer in the house?
You have a point, this being an internet forum, we are all therefor qualified psychologists.

[XCNuse]

i say no..

(you can get the non tobacco skins anyway if you want them, and just replace them filename wise)

but to be honest, if a kid that even does drugs or smokes, almost all of the time it was their own decision; and just by advertising it, i dont think it would really make it appear to be a better thing in the minds of people, because everyone knows why alot of people use tobacco products for advertising, because they are one of the largest companies in the world next to oil refining (and crabbing in alaska lol)

but.. ya, skins are only 3rd party, i dont think it would strike anyone as hey.. look.. someone has a tobacco ad on their car.. lets go see if its really great.. uh.. no; i dont know about anywhere else in the world, but as much as middle and lower school students here in the US are told about drugs, i doubt any of them honestly would want to just .. go get high on crap unless they are around the wrong friends or people.. or family at that

i could go on for hours about this, but i think i'll just stop here and vote for no; its also a freedom of speech almost (well.. freedom of public advertising.. same concept)

[ajp71]

FFS do we have to ban everything. I don't smoke or hunt but am oppossed to the governement banning everything just for the hell of it.

[tristancliffe]

Agreed - we should ALL be allowed to shoot a fox using a hunting dog, whilst smoking asbestos cigarettes!!!

Why do the government and the 'pressure lobbies' want everything banned? And why does the Health and Safety exectutive enforce stupid rules. If someone gets tippex in their eye whilst refilling it, how is that the companies fault? Personally, I blame Americans.

*runs*

[STROBE]

I don't know if home made skins illegally using copyrighted tobacco logos qualifies as advertising.
My thoughts also. Tobacco companies are not paying anything to have their brands featured in replica skins in LFS, and the skinner does not stand to benefit (financially or otherwise) by making a skin with tobacco sponsorship. There's no commercial relationship that could make an LFS skin be considered as "advertising" on behalf of the tobacco companies.

[southamptonfc]

This is a true story, I was in amsterdam at the weekend and I saw a kid going vroom vroom and waving round a pack of empty malboro reds 'racing edition' he'd found on a table. His parents were not happy when they noticed.

If you can be sure that not a single kid will be influenced in any way by tobacco advertising then by all means make skins with it, if there is any doubt then surely it aint a good thing to do?

At the end of day it comes down to peoples own concience, I started this thread to maybe make a few people think and if we see a few less skins plasterd with ads then cool

[keiran]

If your going to be influenced by writing on a car then what chance have you got making it through life, that's my opinion on the situation at hand in the whole tobacco advertising situation. I really think this world is coming to a sad state of affairs where people will be suing companies for "making" them buy chocolate, cigarettes etc.

In the end I feel it's people trying to place blame on others for things they see wrong in themselves and also there's some just trying to get some quick cash.

Keiran

[L(Oo)ney]

Why do the government and the 'pressure lobbies' want everything banned?

http://www.moerakiboulders.co.nz/images/lambs.jpg

*chases after you*

[tristancliffe]

Lol Looney, you have a good habit of quoting the 'best' parts of my post and adding an amusing comment/pic. Keep it up, I love it.

[XCNuse]

I started this thread to maybe make a few people think and if we see a few less skins plasterd with ads then cool
well.. that is never going to happen unless your some rich son of a gun with a ton of money to afford your own car, pitcrew, driver, etc.

[duke_toaster]

I make a point of NOT using tobacco advert skins, or non-tobacco versions. Its fundimentally absurd why they can have (yes, I know Jordan are no longer in F1),say, BE ON EDGE on the wings. I don't need to get out a set of scrabble tiles to know it is a suicide advert :nod: .

*goes off to get images for a national secular society (http://www.secularism.org.uk/) skin*

[SKurjz]

Don't take this wrong.... just tossing out thoughts...


BUT, perhaps something could be put in place in LFS or LFSW that permits the users to filter out skins they do not wish to download. Perhaps something like 'ratings'. A skin containing tobacco ads or marijuana leaves could be classed as 'M' for Mature, and users could choose to filter out (not auto download) any skin rated as 'M'.

[duke_toaster]

Don't take this wrong.... just tossing out thoughts...


BUT, perhaps something could be put in place in LFS or LFSW that permits the users to filter out skins they do not wish to download. Perhaps something like 'ratings'. A skin containing tobacco ads or marijuana leaves could be classed as 'M' for Mature, and users could choose to filter out (not auto download) any skin rated as 'M'.

I disabled skin autodownload. Don't want to waste my time downloading stuff that's only cosmetic. :nod:

[L(Oo)ney]

A skin containing tobacco ads or marijuana leaves could be classed as 'M' for Mature, and users could choose to filter out (not auto download) any skin rated as 'M'.

Does this image want to make you start smoking tobacco?

http://www.gorgecreekorchards.com.au/tob_flower.jpg

Does this image make you want to start smoking cannabis?

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0115926/drugs/Cannabis_Specimen_6743.jpg

Does this image make you want to start drinking guinness?

http://www.lonestartimes.com/images/Bramanti/guinness.gif

Viewing a Tobacco/Cannabis/Booze/Mcdonalds advert on a skin will not make you start smoking/eating/drinking more of whatever the skin is advertising if you do not want it in the first place.

Next weeks discussion - Does watching violent movies make you more likely to go shoot someone up with an Ak-47?

[STROBE]

Does watching violent movies make you more likely to go shoot someone up with an Ak-47?
No, but playing Grand Theft Auto does.*



* According to the trippy and hallucinogenic world of Jack Thompson

[SKurjz]

Does this image want to make you start smoking tobacco?

http://www.gorgecreekorchards.com.au/tob_flower.jpg

Does this image make you want to start smoking cannabis?

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0115926/drugs/Cannabis_Specimen_6743.jpg

Does this image make you want to start drinking guinness?

http://www.lonestartimes.com/images/Bramanti/guinness.gif

Viewing a Tobacco/Cannabis/Booze/Mcdonalds advert on a skin will not make you start smoking/eating/drinking more of whatever the skin is advertising if you do not want it in the first place.

Next weeks discussion - Does watching violent movies make you more likely to go shoot someone up with an Ak-47?


LoOney,

Of course someone had to take my post incorrectly, your reply should have been directed at the starter of this thread not I, as I think you and I are both on the same side of this discussion.

I have no objections to any skin someone could dream up for LFS,(well mebbe draw the line at Kelly Clarkson, or feminine hygene products...) I am also against censorship. One thing I can't get enough of though... is options +) More options make it possible to please more people, please more people, and you could theoretically lead to a larger piece of the pie....