Please remove the soap from the hard tracks.

[Captain K.]

I'm very satisfied with the handling of the GTI.
But i think that most of the other cars slide WAY too much.
It's beyond realistic. Like giving gas, or contra steering has almost no effect at all.
Even at slow speeds you slide and slide and slide..
So please, remove the layer of soap from the asfalt.
Ofcourse there have to be a limit where the cars start sliding, but i just feel that it is odd now.
The traction of the dirt tracks works pretty good.

[spyshagg]

its called "too many horse-power" :)

soften the rear suspencion, play with roll-bars and tyre pressures a bit... oversteer disappears just like that (un less you push it)

you have a wheel/pedals, correct?

[5th Earth]

You're using a keyboard, aren't you?

[Captain K.]

Im using MS FF2 joystick. With digital gas and brake. It's not optimal, but i do pretty good with the GTI and the formula XR cars. And it's not like i just hold the buttons and hope all goes well. I really try to work and feel them.

Thanks for the advice with rear suspencion, roll-bars and tyre pressures.
I will try to play around with those.

I however still think its a bit off, when a car that slides just keep sliding , even when speed get below 30 km/h., and i hope one the the big priorities for the game developers will be tweaking car physics.

If someone can make, or have, a setup especially made for digital gas and brake, and for a fast car, like FXO GTR,XR GTR, or FZ50 GTR, i would appreciate if they could attach it to a post here.

[Gunn]

The digital gas and brake would be contributing to wheelspin which may make adhesion seem less than it really is. You could set your joystick so that pushing forward is throttle and pulling back is brake. That way you get analogue control over these actions, allowing smooth acceleration and braking. I've used this method in older sims and it doesn't take long to get a good feel for it.

[Woz]

Also press f9 and watch your tire temps. If they are red you are going to have much less grip

[Seahorse]

Buy a wheel you cheapskate...:nana:

[Theafro]

a LOT of peeps using kbd have complained thta the cars are uncontrollable, in realit it seems that the keyboard 'help's aren't really enough to tame a lot of the cars, you might find that practicing with the RB4 until you've got the hang of it, slowly moving the power to the rear as you improve, one thing tho'. IF YOU REALLY LIKE LFS - BUY A WHEEL! (if you can afford one anyway) even a cheap £5 spring wheel will DOUBLE how much you'll enjoy LFS and there's nothing like STAMPING on the gas (or giving it a little tickle :)), the game becomes more like it should be - a simulator.

[dUmAsS]

well the keyboard help was changed becuase wheel users complained lfs drove for them

[AndroidXP]

Which it did. Controlling the cars with the old help was more like playing NFS than LFS. Granted, fast laptimes were also hard to get, but the redicolous amount of help would let you zoom over kerbs full throttle with the most uncontrollable (atleast for wheel users) cars we had back then (LX6 comes to mind). You could also drift for ages, no matter if on mud or tarmac just with the press of two buttons because of the perfect counter steer the computer did for you. Maybe it was fun, but skill wasn't exactly involved most of the time.

It wasn't you steering the car, it was you telling your autosteer computer in which direction you want to drive. If a simulation is easier to drive with keys than with the wheel, than there's something wrong, and that made Scawen nerf the keyboard help. I think you get the point.

[Woz]

well the keyboard help was changed becuase wheel users complained lfs drove for them

It was changed because KB players were able to set WR lap times compared to wheel times. It was IMPOSSIBLE to lose the back end no matter what you tried to do to the car. LFS is a sim and cars are not controlled with digital controls so wheel or joystick should be faster than wheel.

[Captain K.]

It was changed because KB players were able to set WR lap times compared to wheel times. It was IMPOSSIBLE to lose the back end no matter what you tried to do to the car. LFS is a sim and cars are not controlled with digital controls so wheel or joystick should be faster than wheel.

Agree , but the game should also be playable for those that use buttons for gas and brakes.
I'm not saying cars should be glued to the road, and sure enough the guys that use analog gas,brake and gears, should have a small advantage.

But it gotta be easier than it is now, when you don't use analog controls.

[Slartibartfast]

Agree , but the game should also be playable for those that use buttons for gas and brakes.
I'm not saying cars should be glued to the road, and sure enough the guys that use analog gas,brake and gears, should have a small advantage.

But it gotta be easier than it is now, when you don't use analog controls.

At this point in time the physics in LFS are not done. It is important to be very careful with tire cambers and pressure. If the camber is too high, the car gets over commited laterally without much in the way of feedback to you, the driver. The fronts are especially important because when the front get's over commited you can't tell until it's too late. (Sometimes too late is at the very moment you turn the steering wheel.) I understand keyboarding is a chore, but less camber, especially in the front, and less rear pressure will help A LOT!

[Delerue]

I'm very satisfied with the handling of the GTI.
But i think that most of the other cars slide WAY too much.
It's beyond realistic. Like giving gas, or contra steering has almost no effect at all.
Even at slow speeds you slide and slide and slide..
So please, remove the layer of soap from the asfalt.
Ofcourse there have to be a limit where the cars start sliding, but i just feel that it is odd now.
The traction of the dirt tracks works pretty good.

Yeah. Most of fans don't admit, but when you run in LFS, it looks like you are on racing soap. It's really amazing that the DEVs didn't fix it until now, after almost three years of project. And when you talk about it, you'll always listen the same bullshlt (sic): "we're in alpha stage of S2...". Blah-blah-blah... :rolleyes:

[Cue-Ball]

Agree , but the game should also be playable for those that use buttons for gas and brakes.
I'm not saying cars should be glued to the road, and sure enough the guys that use analog gas,brake and gears, should have a small advantage.

But it gotta be easier than it is now, when you don't use analog controls.

I disagree. There's no reason that the game should be the least bit playable using a keyboard. Imagine driving your car if you only had no throttle and full throttle. I doubt you'd be able to get to the store and back without crashing, yet people expect to make it around a race track with no problem?

There's NO reason for anyone to be driving without a wheel. My friend just got a used Logitech Driving Force off ebay for $10US. TEN DOLLARS! You can't afford NOT to have a wheel if you expect to play a realistic driving game.

Buy a wheel and download the Easy Race and Road setups for the cars. I guarantee you'll not only have no problem driving the cars, but you'll have the most fun you've ever had with a driving game in your life.

[Delerue]

I disagree. There's no reason that the game should be the least bit playable using a keyboard. Imagine driving your car if you only had no throttle and full throttle. I doubt you'd be able to get to the store and back without crashing, yet people expect to make it around a race track with no problem?

There's NO reason for anyone to be driving without a wheel. My friend just got a used Logitech Driving Force off ebay for $10US. TEN DOLLARS! You can't afford NOT to have a wheel if you expect to play a realistic driving game.

Buy a wheel and download the Easy Race and Road setups for the cars. I guarantee you'll not only have no problem driving the cars, but you'll have the most fun you've ever had with a driving game in your life.


Yep, I agree. But the problem of 'soap racing' remains. :(

[Cue-Ball]

Yep, I agree. But the problem of 'soap racing' remains. :(

Have you tried the Easy Race setups or setups borrowed from people who set fast laps? I thought the tire model in LFS sucked until I tried more dialed in setups (not the ones that ship with the game). Now I'm competitive and having fun! :D

[Delerue]

Have you tried the Easy Race setups or setups borrowed from people who set fast laps? I thought the tire model in LFS sucked until I tried more dialed in setups (not the ones that ship with the game). Now I'm competitive and having fun! :D

I've tried, but the problem remains. It's really a bug; a really old bug. :(

Try to stop one car in LFS (GTI, per example), and make a full turn of the wheel, then push throttle until you reach 25 km/h. You'll see a unbelieveable thing: the tires will lose grip. :(

[Rotary]

I'm very satisfied with the handling of the GTI.
But i think that most of the other cars slide WAY too much.
It's beyond realistic. Like giving gas, or contra steering has almost no effect at all.
Even at slow speeds you slide and slide and slide..
So please, remove the layer of soap from the asfalt.
Ofcourse there have to be a limit where the cars start sliding, but i just feel that it is odd now.
The traction of the dirt tracks works pretty good.

Urm, there is a major flaw in your post... your driving the GTI on the same "soapy" tracks as the other cars!!!! Obviously there isn't soap on the track or the GTI would be sliding like the others too!

Maybe one of the follow has happened:

1. Someone has hacked your computer and put soap or oil on the tyres of all your LFS cars except the GTI.

2. Your setups in the other cars do not compliment your driving (vice versa), unlike in the GTI.

3. Get in any of the other LFS cars and race against a field of AI GTI drivers... this way the Antisoap GTI tyres clear the track for you and no longer will you be sliding everywhere! :D

:p

Seriously, I think it comes down to all the stuff other people have mentioned and I am just dribbling useless crap :D

[Hoellsen]

We can pull over 1g in the road tired cars. Not much soap about that.

Agreed, there ARE issues with the tires, the diffs and the aero model, but the grip in general is there.

[Delerue]

We can pull over 1g in the road tired cars. Not much soap about that.

Agreed, there ARE issues with the tires, the diffs and the aero model, but the grip in general is there.

Is there, but is there in wrong way.

Read this:

Try to stop one car in LFS (GTI, per example), and make a full turn of the wheel, then push throttle until you reach 25 km/h. You'll see a unbelieveable thing: the tires will lose grip.

[Woz]

Is there, but is there in wrong way.

Read this:

Try to stop one car in LFS (GTI, per example), and make a full turn of the wheel, then push throttle until you reach 25 km/h. You'll see a unbelieveable thing: the tires will lose grip.

By full turn of wheel I take it you mean full lock. If so try exactly the same in a real FWD car. The tires will lose grip.

You have to remember that unless you are using a DFP the movements you do with the wheel will have FAR more effect than in real life.

There are issues at low speed with the tires but they are not that far off.

[mrodgers]

Does anyone actually read other posts here in this forum? How many threads do we need to create complaining about the grip? Now that I've gotten a variety of sets for most of the cars, I never loose grip (ok, I do, but due to driving too hard, not lack of grip). I use to be of the same opinion, but now I know how the cars drive and react to my inputs, know the tracks well enough that I can drive smoothly, and have learned how to feel the cars without the important "butt" feeling you get from driving a real car. I went from having to practically stop around the tight turns at AS National in the FZR to throttling around them without loosing any grip and spinning out. You have to learn to feel the car and know how to modulate the throttle. I have a feeling many who complain about the grip are simply giving way too much throttle. Be it keyboard, mouse, or wheel and pedals, you just don't have as much control of the throttle as you do in an actual car. How many of you have driven an actual race car? Not a street car slightly modified to run on the track, but a real race car with 400+ hp. I knew a guy who had a 450 hp 5.0 Mustang, twin turbo (I know, not a race car). Downshift that thing into 4th at 60-70 mph and guess what happens? You will go sideways, just as you do in LFS. And this is not with the ultra low gearing that is used in LFS, that is with street gearing. In LFS, we have infinite control on gear ratios so they can be completely optimized for the track to define exactly where shift points are for cornering and accelleration. You can't just run to the auto parts store and ask for an exact gear ratio for your car. Try out Bob's road going sets posted elsewhere here and at RSC to see what the cars would run like with a realistic street car setup. Every new thread about grip ends up with this statement in it. Try the road going sets. Just everyone stop creating new threads about the crappy grip. Learn to modulate the throttle to drive the cars instead of mashing the pedal down and wonder why there's no grip.

[durbster]

...Learn to modulate the throttle to drive the cars instead of mashing the pedal down and wonder why there's no grip.

You shouldn't assume everyone complaining about grip can't drive. I have no trouble getting round in LFS but I still know there's quite a big problem with the physics.

You are right though, it's been done to death now :)

[Bruce314]

I once drove a porsche GT3 (few months ago) on a track : believe me, you won't push the pedal to metal in low gear and you'd better brake BEFORE downshift or you'll learn quickly what gearbox locking (and spinning mean). Ok, this was not really a race car, but 350+HP for this weight and slick tires give me a good approach (also tried a F355 modified for Challenge)
Most people (including me) have driven too many arcade games to think to compare to a real car... As said before, a race car (expecially tuned) has nothing to do with the car you drive everyday (uch, much more BRUTAL behaviour - slicks are really impressive) nor with a pseudo car in an arcade game (where you might oversteer and follow your line with full gas or full brake...)

Subject is close for me... And even if the tyres are a little too slippy (I hate this Fo8...), I see that some expert racers drive them without pb (and 10s pro lap quicker than me - I feel such a lamer) so I understand *I* need to improve rather than harass the dev... Each car is specific, each track is specific and you'll have to be comfortable with all of combinations...

For people finding turbo cars too hard to drive, think to the stupid preparators who modify the engine without changing the shocks or transmission. The car has been designed to be coherent by quite a lot of engineers (including me for some of them which should definitively be a sign of quality 0:-) ), so how the hell could the first "expert in tuning" modify the car? (ok, I'm off subject and angry). I do not hate tuners, I do not hate tunng, I hate idiots, that's different. The problem is that both categories often mix together... (I think I'll be moderated) (I apologize in advance)

[sinbad]

If you're having problems feeding in the power with a button, you could always reduce the button-control-rate value, so that the "pedal" is pressed more slowly. This does have negative side-effects, but try it anyway.

[mrodgers]

You shouldn't assume everyone complaining about grip can't drive. I have no trouble getting round in LFS but I still know there's quite a big problem with the physics.

You are right though, it's been done to death now :)
Well, it's not that I'm assuming everyone complaining can't drive, it's just that I'm tired of seeing a new thread on this every other day. I really no longer think their is a problem with grip. The first track I tried in S2 was AS National with the FZR. At the start, I spun the tires and spun into the wall, turn 1 tail would come out and I'm in the grass, turn 2 (sharp left hander) brake, turn and bam I'm spun out. Get straightened out, maybe get through up the hill around the 180 right hander and get into the chicane just to spin out there. I spun everywhere. It wasn't a matter of no grip, it was learning the throttle modulation. A few laps into my S2 newbie stage and I was not even touching the throttle at all until I was perfectly straight coming out of the turns. Now after running hundreds of laps not just at AS Nat (600 or so) but running the FZR at many of the other tracks, I am starting to trailbrake in some of the turns and getting back on the throttle quick at the apex and throttling out. I am by far not the fastest out there. I am midpack in the few tracks I know and at the tail end of the tracks I don't know yet (which are many). But I think the original posts that start these "there's no grip" threads come from newer racers who really don't know the cars and tracks all that well yet and may still really be use to the arcadey race games that they are coming here from. I don't mean to say learn how to drive, but more give it some time to get use to how the cars drive, get the setup good for the track and to learn the track and it's little details that make it possible to run good laps.

[Gunn]

... give it some time to get use to how the cars drive, get the setup good for the track and to learn the track and it's little details that make it possible to run good laps.Good advice here. Many of us used to wear a grimace and now we wear a smile. In time as track knowledge increases and you hone your set to suit your driving, you find yourself changing too. I wonder how many racers have noticed just how different they drive now than they used to. I think we would all welcome more grip, what racer wouldn't? But it has been proven that a great improvement can be made just by practicing with a good set.
One area that I can't emphasize enough is throttle control. This isn't as simple as just being careful not to spin out, the smoother you can deliver the power to the tarmac the faster your laps will be, the longer your tyres and fuel will last and the more grip you will have. Throttle control is also an essential skill to aid the cornering behaviour of your car. Being very aware of throttle control will certainly improve all aspects of your driving and reduce spins and burnouts tenfold.

Remember too that an inadequate setup will frustrate you and prevent you from driving your best.

[Cue-Ball]

Well, it's not that I'm assuming everyone complaining can't drive, it's just that I'm tired of seeing a new thread on this every other day. I really no longer think their is a problem with grip.

I have to agree with this. Well, there may be a problem, but it's not what most people seem to think. When I first tried the game I found it very difficult and sometimes frustrating. After running some laps and trying the Easy Race setups, I no longer have a problem with grip. And I've only been playing this game about two weeks, so this is not some huge learning curve we're talking about. Sure, if I mash the throttle in the more powerful cars the tail comes out, but it would in real life as well. I think it's pretty obvious that the tires/track can't really be slippery or we wouldn't have guys (lots of them) pulling fast laps consistently like we do. There are PLENTY of people out there who can run 30 laps around the long tracks in the fastest cars without ever going off track and without losing their pace. The tires last, they stay on the track, and they're fast.

I think that a proper setup cures 90% of the "problem" that people have. The rest is just throttle control and folks who drive 130hp cars not being able to handle a 400hp, lightweight, RWD race car. Add to that the fact that most people are playing on a 19" (or smaller) screen and you compound the problem because they don't get the same sense of speed that they do in a real car. If LFS shipped with the Easy Race or Road Going setups as defaults, I bet we would get these types of threads way, WAY less often.

While there may be a slight problem with the physics (setups that look good on paper not working in-game), lack of grip is really not the problem IMO.

[Boris Lozac]

If LFS shipped with the Easy Race or Road Going setups as defaults, I bet we would get these types of threads way, WAY less often.

Exactly the reason i suggested Bob's Easy and Road going setups to be "defaults" in the new patch, or S2 final... ;)

[Hoellsen]

and make a full turn of the wheel, then push throttle until you reach 25 km/h. You'll see a unbelieveable thing: the tires will lose grip.

No, really? I'd like to see a vid of a car with its wheel at full lock going 25km/h without losing grip on the front wheels.

[Seahorse]

Note to self:

Get wife to video me driving to work in the morning...:splat:

[Bruce314]

note to you : buy a FWD with 100HP for 800kg, hit full gas in 1st or second gear with full wheel lock and you'll see... I bet you'll loose your nose as soon sas the pedal reach de metal :-)
(Btw : Yes, I did more than once the test myself with such as car - my new one does not sleep because of that stupid anti-slipping device)

[Delerue]

note to you : buy a FWD with 100HP for 800kg, hit full gas in 1st or second gear with full wheel lock and you'll see... I bet you'll loose your nose as soon sas the pedal reach de metal :-)
(Btw : Yes, I did more than once the test myself with such as car - my new one does not sleep because of that stupid anti-slipping device)

I have one of these cars. But what you said it's different of what I said. I said 'until you reach 25 km/h', and not 'full throttle'.

BTW, of course my car (and any one, even 'baby cars'...) don't lose grip at 25 km/h.

Why LFS fans have this huge difficult to say that the game has wrong tires physics? I can't understand this behaviour. :(

[tristancliffe]

But they're only WRONG below 25km/h. How often do you EVER go that slow in a race? If you do so, then you won't win often. Above 25km/h, bar a few detail issues, the tyre modelling is VERY VERY good, i.e. at speeds that MATTER.

Why people keep trying to rubbish LFS by saying at tiny speed it's rubbish? I can't understand this behaviour. :(

[Delerue]

But they're only WRONG below 25km/h. How often do you EVER go that slow in a race? If you do so, then you won't win often. Above 25km/h, bar a few detail issues, the tyre modelling is VERY VERY good, i.e. at speeds that MATTER.

Why people keep trying to rubbish LFS by saying at tiny speed it's rubbish? I can't understand this behaviour. :(

No. Wrong. I'm talking about 25 km/h because is more easy to see the huge problem with tire physics that LFS has. You can see this problem at all speeds, but it's only more noticeable at med-low speeds. Play a real simulation game, like GTR, GTL, rFactor and you'll see. Better than this: drive a real car. You'll never lose grip too easily. ;)

[Bob Smith]

Low speed physics HAVE to be different to medium/high speed physics, so in fact the low speed problems shouldn't be apparent at high speed.

Play a real simulation game, like GTR, GTL
:ices_rofl

[tristancliffe]

Play a real simulation game, like GTR, GTL, rFactor and you'll see.

LOL. They aren't real simulations! They fudge and fake almost everything, especially GTR/GTL. LFS has the better physics engine, but a few curves and ratios need tweaking to make it better. But at speeds above 25km/h I cannot notice anything wrong with the tyre physics, other than their refusal to regain grip quite quickly enough. Until you lose grip, I think LFS has a touch too much sometimes, especially with the road tyres.

Better than this: drive a real car. You'll never lose grip too easily. ;)

But thats REAL LIFE. That is what we are trying to simulate. But it's not as easy as you make it sound to generate a perfect tyre model for every situation. As it is, LFS works at speed, but has limitations at low speed/full lock.

[Seahorse]

note to you : buy a FWD with 100HP for 800kg, hit full gas in 1st or second gear with full wheel lock and you'll see... I bet you'll loose your nose as soon sas the pedal reach de metal :-)
(Btw : Yes, I did more than once the test myself with such as car - my new one does not sleep because of that stupid anti-slipping device)

Where does it say full throttle in the original post? Besids, I still can in may car and on my bike...:)

[durbster]

LOL. They aren't real simulations! They fudge and fake almost everything, especially GTR/GTL.
That's what a simulation is - it's a con. How they choose to do it is irrelevant as long as the end result is convincing enough. I actually prefer the more organic feel of LFS but GTR is pretty damn good a lot of the time, and it's grip model is undoubtedly a lot more realistic.

Low speed physics HAVE to be different to medium/high speed physics
Why is this? I never did understand it.

[tristancliffe]

Hmmmm, I feel like I'mm talked to Greek Dude again... :P

A simulation attempts to model everything like real life, and is not purely concerned with the end result, but how you got there and the consequences.
GTR/GTL is not like this, and neither is rFactor in many many areas. They are ONLY converend with the end result, which makes them seem more convincing at the moment, but as soon as you ask them to do funny things the model breaks down.

I doubt GTR could simulate the elk test as well as LFS does (see recent thread).

[Gunn]

I think what Tristan is trying to say is that instead of just simulating the results LFS attempts to simulate the process, the results then should be more dynamic and realistic.

This is not to say that a great feel can not be created by just "fudging" the result, sure it can. But can you see in LFS the possibilites once you have the process simulated and more or less accurate? You end up with a very interactive and changable model. This is perhaps what makes the evolution of LFS so exciting. It is also what gives the driving in LFS that dynamic connected feel. Everything basically effects everything else, as in real life.

This is a great ride we are on. :)

[SID135]

Just remember guys, in a patch soon, the pysics are going to be updated/overhalled, so who cares what there like now (good) and focus on what they will be (great)

[durbster]

Yeah I understand and agree with the point Gunn. We don't know for sure but I'd imagine there was a fair amount of fudging that went on with the GPL model, for example, to get it to run as well as it did on those old PCs, and yet that still feels quite natural and fluid. Anyway, I agree with tristan and yourself, I was just being facetious. :)

[Delerue]

A simulation attempts to model everything like real life, and is not purely concerned with the end result, but how you got there and the consequences.

GTR/GTL is not like this, and neither is rFactor in many many areas. They are ONLY converend with the end result, which makes them seem more convincing at the moment, but as soon as you ask them to do funny things the model breaks down.

I doubt GTR could simulate the elk test as well as LFS does (see recent thread).

Prove it.

[tristancliffe]

Prove that it's not!

I see NO evidence in either game of any form of advanced modelling on par with LFS. Plus the games are all built on physics engines that have ben known to produce rubbish simulations.

[Delerue]

Prove that it's not!

You must be kidding. Have you ever head something about "Ad Ignorantiam"? You can't invert the onus, dude. You say something, so you must prove it. ;)

BTW, no evidence it's not a evidence of nothing.

[]´s

[Slartibartfast]

I have a feeling many who complain about the grip are simply giving way too much throttle.
I think that a proper setup cures 90% of the "problem" that people have.
Exactly the reason i suggested Bob's Easy and Road going setups to be "defaults" in the new patch, or S2 final... ;)
But at speeds above 25km/h I cannot notice anything wrong with the tyre physics, other than their refusal to regain grip quite quickly enough. Until you lose grip, I think LFS has a touch too much sometimes, especially with the road tyres.
I really don't think it's a matter of throttle. I have excellent throttle control and am fully aware of what throttle should do in any given situation. LFS tire physics is off to some degree, although slight. I would be willing to bet that many are giving too much throttle, but not all... not me.

As far as low speeds being the problem, I'd say no. I've driven more than a few road going vehicles. I have yet to meet a single one that goes into terminal oversteer at neutral throttle, well below the limit, at the moment steering angle is applied. (Yes, I am also very aware of what I am doing with the wheel.) You can spin the LFS RWD with ridiculously low steering angle at turn in under neutral throttle at well over 100kph, or 200kph for that matter.

Notice that Bob's exquisite setups always enter the conversation. I suspect the lateral grip is off to some extent. It seems like straight line grip is very realistic but as soon as there is any lateral force the whole thing becomes something other than realistic. I've noticed that camber can be ridiculously high and the grip keeps climbing. I've never experimented with excessive camber in real life, but I would expect there has to be point of diminishing returns. I've also noticed that along with the excessive grip that comes with excessive camber is a loss of feel, or read, on what the tires are doing. So, you get tons of grip immediately, then when you go over you don't see it coming. My RWD sets all have lower cambers than the default sets. And front is very low in comparison. On the LX6 it's lower than the rear. I got some of my ideas from Bob. The cars act very realistically. Neutral throttle turn in oversteer is a thing of the past for me and I find that I am using my right foot more realistically throughout all turn phases. (With the default sets the right foot had no correlation to real life. Very disappointing.)

So, yes, there is certainly a problem with the tire physics, low or high speed. Yes, it can be tuned out with setup.

Why do I think it's a problem? Well, I've never purposefully set my rear camber 1/2 a degree lower in real life to see what it would do, but I've seen bigger numbers on my alignment charts from the mechanic and had no problem driving to the shop. I've also driven some *very* bent machinery, race and non race vehicles. Even they were more predictable than the stock LX6 in LFS.

At this point, when there is some grip problem that doesn't have an analogy to real life, I *tune* it out with seat time - learning how to apply steering, throttle, and brake in a manner that produces results in LFS even though it might not in real life. Fine. All sims are like that. But I think it points to a problem.

[Impreza WRX]

No, really? I'd like to see a vid of a car with its wheel at full lock going 25km/h without losing grip on the front wheels.
If I had a camera, I would film my Civic and show you...

[ButterTyres]

Same two camps as always in these dicussions - the ones who say there is a problem with the physics and the ones who dont.

I'm gonna sit in the middle just so that there are 3 camps :)

[DodgeRacer]

Same two camps as always in these dicussions - the ones who say there is a problem with the physics and the ones who dont.

I'm gonna sit in the middle just so that there are 3 camps :)
Your LFS alias gives this thread enough irony hahahaha.

[Noobzy]

Agreeable to much sliding in demo the first car has real handling but other man when you turn you need to lower the throttle so much that a slower car with better steering would pass by.

[Vain]

It takes some days of training to control a RWD car under racing-conditions. That goes for real-life cars and LFS-cars. I had enough problems to get my 190 HP car go nicely along the nordschleife. So I had equal problems of getting my XRT nicely along Blackwood GP.
Oh, and on a side-note: Don't believe the default-setups are anywhere near "good". A nice setup (bob's easy race-setup for example) will make the car feel much better.

Vain

[Honey]

I have one of these cars. But what you said it's different of what I said. I said 'until you reach 25 km/h', and not 'full throttle'.

BTW, of course my car (and any one, even 'baby cars'...) don't lose grip at 25 km/h.

Why LFS fans have this huge difficult to say that the game has wrong tires physics? I can't understand this behaviour. :(
i have a 900kg 75hp (almost half of gti) fwd car and even with centered wheel, i must calibrate throttle to avoid spinning, so dont mention when turning.
if you try corners IRL like lfs your car slides much more -> lfs is too grippy!
i try almost every car sim and i found lfs far more realistic than any other, lfs is the only one that behaves almost exacly RL cars...just my 2 cents...obviously u may not think the way i am, so i suggest you to search RSC for a thread where a PhD was trying to challenge the suspension and tyre phisics, with RL equations...if you can understand maths you would agree to the conclusion that lfs is damn close to RL!

[tristancliffe]

i have a 900kg 75hp (almost half of gti) fwd car and even with centered wheel, i must calibrate throttle to avoid spinning, so dont mention when turning.
if you try corners IRL like lfs your car slides much more -> lfs is too grippy!
i try almost every car sim and i found lfs far more realistic than any other, lfs is the only one that behaves almost exacly RL cars...just my 2 cents...obviously u may not think the way i am, so i suggest you to search RSC for a thread where a PhD was trying to challenge the suspension and tyre phisics, with RL equations...if you can understand maths you would agree to the conclusion that lfs is damn close to RL!

Agreed.

[MAD3.0LT]

i been playing lfs since beta and i do have to say the way the game feels has changed quiet a bit and the rwd's are alot easyer on limit driving then they used to be but their still is a small issue with low speed weights and such

i have a 240 hp RWD and i have to say it feels alot like the xrt for on limit driving but it comes alot down to sets for on limit driving most road cars are built to understeer rather then over steer

i still think real driving is easyer then LFS cause u can feel the g's gaining and droping due to loss of grip hence the reason lfs feels slippry u cant feel the g's only through a wheel

if anyone says i use a bad set or no wheel or what ever let me state this first

i use a DFP 720 deg mode act labs shifter act labs pedals no aid's and managed a 1:25:61 on black wood in the XRT

now their is still a few things that BMW M3 mod had over LFS but rember LFS isent about touchy race cars fully tuned for racing lfs has allways had a feeling of slowness to it even the GTR cars feel slow and sloppy but if u check ur g's and corner speed u will realize that u are going pritty quick and the response u get from the FFB is the best out of any sim:D

so theirs my 2 cents

[Bnito]

I don't think the corner speeds or the G's the cars can pull is the problem, it is the grip regain, it's just aint that slow. Thats why Rwd's feel so slippery, if they just could get that one right i think i could enjoy lfs again. Every time i try lfs after a long pause, i enjoy it a lot for the first hour, then i get sick of the sliding and quit the game..

I've tried different setups, but it's just a way to fool yourself if the grip regain is wrong. Just like having rust on your car and instead of fixing it properly, you just hide it under the paint and say, see doesn't look that bad....

[tristancliffe]

You mean how tyres, especially slicks, snap back into grip? Yes, that is the biggest flaw in LFS's tyre physics. The overall grip is about right, and the way it looses grip isn't bad at all either, but the change between no-grip and grip does need to happen a bit more suddenly. Otherwise you end up with very long slides that are almost impossible to regain control from.

I think this would help with the dirt and heat modelling to. Right now, on hot rear tyres (130+) there is absolutely no grip, and I don't think it should be quite that bad. If the tyres regained grip a bit quicker then I reckon, based on my simple 'tests' that it would help.

Any thoughts on this Scawen, or are you going to keep us in suspence a bit longer? :D

[Bnito]

You mean how tyres, especially slicks, snap back into grip? Yes, that is the biggest flaw in LFS's tyre physics. The overall grip is about right, and the way it looses grip isn't bad at all either, but the change between no-grip and grip does need to happen a bit more suddenly. Otherwise you end up with very long slides that are almost impossible to regain control from.


That's exactly what i mean. The transistion from grip -> no grip is i quess ok, but other way around no grip -> grip is just too slow.

Just few points from my own experience. My friend owns an 84' corvette, not exactly a masterpiece, but can be slid around the bends. Now i tried to slide it and the way it grips back when you ease the throttle is just very quick. Same thing i've experienced with my 170hp bmw, actually when i got it and tried to slide it i almost crashed because of what i had learned in lfs. I just countersteered too much and didn't return the wheel to center when i let go of the throttle and almost ended on the opposite lane. Just because the regain of the grip was far quicker than i expected, almost same happened with my friends supra...but i ain't no expert and won't claim to be. Just what i've experienced.

Now i dunno why the same problem has existed from the day lfs saw the light, it's been few years now and i'm actually already a bit suprised that it hasn't been fixed yet. I'm not in a rush though, but i'd hope to see it in future patch. I think if scawen would spent a day or two on track, or even at some closed place, just to slide the car he might get more clearer view of what happens...

The fact anyway stands that scawen rides a bike and has if i remember right the only rwd he has driven is a kart. Things may have changed already, i dunno, haven't much been in touch with guys on "the inside".

Anyhow, i just hope it will get better in the future, maybe it would bring me and lots others that i race different sims with back to lfs, as they dislike it for the fact that your sliding a bit too much :)

[Honey]

i don't have any experience IRL with slicks, but with road tyres and fwd, yes: i learned that regaining grip from little slides is very quick (as in lfs), but recovering from a complete loss of grip requires many meters...and in that i found lfs again to feel like RL...but i have to say that even if i cannot compare rwd with RL experience, i admit that except for fox and mrt i find all other lfs rwds quite hard to recover from a slide, i often see some ferrari scaglietti (fz50 like) on the streets and they seem pretty stable...i guess that maybe the problem could be not in tyre model, but rather into engine model...let's dont forget that modern cars (rwd especially) have electronic stability control, antispin and whatever...obviously i think that a deeper look into each aspect of lfs phisics is always good, to help make it even more and more realistic :)

[tristancliffe]

let's dont forget that modern cars (rwd especially) have electronic stability control, antispin and whatever...

For girls!!!!!

And to avoid lawsuits and injuries.

But if I want a powerful rwd car I don't want a spotty 17 year old computer programmer to stop the car giving me the power I paid for.

I better stop now, cos I usually rant on and on about this for ages, and offend people who need these computers on board.

[Bob Smith]

Maybe it's all because Scawen gets soap through his plumbing? :p

Tristan: there's nothing wrong with spotty 17 year old programmers, don't mention them in such a negative manner. And besides, they free up more women for other people, such as lesser-spotted 20 year old programmers ;)

[tristancliffe]

Tristan: there's nothing wrong with spotty 17 year old programmers, don't mention them in such a negative manner. And besides, they free up more women for other people, such as lesser-spotted 20 year old programmers ;)

Fair Point, Well Made.

However, I still don't want the car manufacturer stopping me drom getting the power/torque/brake force that I paid for, and that I want. Thats why cars have pedals, so you can choose the amounts. Choose too much and thats your own stupid fault.

[Honey]

For girls!!!!!

And to avoid lawsuits and injuries.

But if I want a powerful rwd car I don't want a spotty 17 year old computer programmer to stop the car giving me the power I paid for.

I better stop now, cos I usually rant on and on about this for ages, and offend people who need these computers on board.

maybe i wasn't explaining very good what i meant -> i don't want anti spin into lfs!!!

i meant that RL rwd cars may recover from a slide easier than lfs, because of that...and enforcing my idea that lfs does not comes with "soap included" but rather that RL commercial rwd are for "noobs" and not for racers

i like lfs and i like it realistic/difficult as it is... ;)

[tristancliffe]

Great :D

[Vain]

I drive a 193 hp '85 RWD car without the electronic assistances (not even ABS), so I have a slight understanding of the real life behaviour of RWD cars (talking about LFS' street cars). When the car oversteers and I catch the back the car will, once I reached the right steering and gas, immediately regain grip and sometimes turn the tail for 15° or more within a moment. That is the moment where I have to beware of counter-sliding. Such an effect seems to completely miss in LFS. This is propably bound to the slow regaining of grip in LFS.

Vain

[JeffR]

Let me first state that I bought LFS S1 and S2, and plan to buy S3, but I think there are some issues with LFS:

The cars in LFS over react when the tires are pushed just a bit past the limits.

S2 is a big improvement over S1 in this aspect of the tire model, but it still isn't quite right yet. I don't know how LFS does it's tire physics, but in real life, there is no sudden transition from static (not slipping) to dynamic (slipping) friction. There is almost alway some amount of slippage at the perimeter of the contact patch of a tire. In addition, there is an inwards squirm effect due to the force from a tires sidewalls.

As longitudinal acceleration (or braking) increase, the amount of area at the leading and trailing edges of the contact patch that are slipping increase, until you reach the point where all of the contact patch is slipping. The amount of loss in grip when all of the contact patch is slipping depends on the tire compound and construction. Wrinkle wall drag racing slicks are sticky, but lose a lot of grip if they spin. Performance street tires don't lose quite as much grip, and because many street cars have clutches that don't grip well when there's a big difference between driving and driven rpms at the clutch plate, most auto magazine testers simply drop the clutch at a medium low rpm and let the tires spin to get the best and most consistent launches when doing drag testing.

A similar thing happens with lateral acceleration (cornering). Slip angle is the difference between the direction the tire is actually moving, and the direction the tire is pointed. As slip angle increases, the sideways force increases, and the amount of area that is slipping at the perimeter of the contact patch increases, until it reaches a critical angle of peak sideways force. Increasing the angle further results in less sideways force, but how much less depends on tire design. With an ideal tire, there would be a large range of slip angle past the peak where the sideways force would remain about the same. Most drivers will give up .1g of lateral accerleration if this resulted in a tire that closely approximates an "ideal" tire, which would be more forgiving and allow them to drive at the limits. Some of you will be "tired" of hearing about this, but do a web search for bias bly racing tires, and you'll find that most non-downforce racing cars use bias ply racing tires (DOT or slicks). This is because these tires behave very closely to an "ideal" tire, losing very little grip even when pushed past their limits. Even road racing radial tires are designed to have similar properties.

tires take too long to regain grip after going off track

In real life, race cars often go off track, and back on track, and it doesn't take as long for grip to return as it does in LFS. If a race car travels over a wet patch (grass for example), the tires lose little heat, and dry up very quickly once back on the road, and at most tracks, they don't water the grass just before a race. Gravel traps use fairly large pebbles to prevent them from getting stuck into the tires and later flung off at other drivers.

The tires in LFS heat up much too quickly when sliding

Not much to explain here, the model just seems to be wrong. The hot spots seem to develop almost instantly, and yet take a long time to dissapate.

Segemented tire model

Again I don't know how this is implemented, but a contact patch varies in size depending the forces acting on it (downforce and accelerations), and the circumference of a tire flows continously through the contact patch, not in segments. If you lock up the tires under braking, even for a fairly short period, then look at tire temps while moving slowly, you can see a very small hot spot "segment". This isn't realistic.

[tristancliffe]

I agree with you only on the not regaining grip quickly enough. The rest, whilst correct, is what LFS tries to acheive.

About the hotspots. When you lock a tyre in real life, only a little part of it (the bit on the ground) gets heated. Lets call this bit a 'segment'. Now, LFS is designed so that the tyre temps work in segments (see where I'm going), so a lock up with heat the segment that is considered on the ground at that point. What is wrong there? Nothing! For grip, slip angles, sidewall deformation I believe that LFS calculates them continuously (at 4kHz I think, even though the rest of the physics engine runs at 100Hz).

Your real life points are all correct, as always JeffR. But, like many of your previous posts, you have missed the point about LFS. It isn't real life. The tyre model is as close enough as we need. I doubt you'd tell the difference if the temp segment modelling was increased for 16 to 32 segments. LFS loses grip gradually. I can feel the tyres beginning to lose grip in 'stages' if you like, it's not a defined 'Grip' or 'Slip' condition.

You always state you don't know how LFS does the tyre model. Well, in future, perhaps you should find out before moaning about tyres for the millionth time.

[Vain]

The propblem is that for example loosing grip will always feel unreal because you can't rely on your bottom to detect small slipping - the usual way to determin sliding in real life. Only your eyes, ears and eventually your hands (FF) can get feedback from the game.
When the loss of grip is watched closely in replays using the force-view you can see that it seems very correct, nevertheless it feels strange. I don't think there is much LFS can do better to simulate this.
Though of course I agree, that the regaining of grip doesn't seem to follow a realistic model.

Vain

[Bob Smith]

Yeah I don't understand your point about segmented tyres either JeffR. What should get hot during a lock up, the whole damn tyre? I think not.

I've no idea about tyres heating, since I don't have any real life knowledge on the subject. However tyres are a bitch to cool down, I played GTR around a friends house the other day and the difference is huge. Not saying GTR is perfectly real, but we all know they fudge the physics so that everything appears correct. Why would they intentionally speed things up? I'm sure that the devs would have found a reasonable number for the specific heat capacity for the rubber/metal mix that forms a tyre, so I'm guessing maybe the fast flow of air doesn't cool as much as it should do. I suppose engine and brake temps would be another way to check on this.

On the dirt side of things, the system has only just been introduced and known to be basic, give them a chance. :)

[JeffR]

You always state you don't know how LFS does the tyre model. Well, in future, perhaps you should find out before moaning about tyres for the millionth time.
I would assume this is like a trade secret, no one but the developers are going to know, or are they explaining how they model the tires?

About the hotspots. When you lock a tyre in real life, only a little part of it (the bit on the ground) gets heated.
The issue seems to be that there is no conduction of the heat away from hot spots. It's as if the tire surface is a perfect heat insulator. In the FO8, with 1.00 degrees of negative camber in the front tires, while going 50mph, tires at 60 degrees (Farenheight), I locked up the brakes to a complete stop (takes just under 2 seconds), track must have been cool, because most of the tire dropped from 60 degrees to 59 degrees during the 2 seconds, while two inside hot spots appeared, over 120 degrees. Three minutes later, the hot spots were still over 100 degrees, and the immediately surrounding areas hadn't heated up at all

I would have expected the heat to be conducted both deeper into the tread and outwardly away from the hot spot, but LFS isn't doing this . In addition, the hot spot appears to be much smaller than the actual size of the contact patch of a tire, because it's very difficult to move the car slowly and stop the car with the hot spots showing on the live tire temp HUD. The hot spots are extremely small, and dissipate heat extremely slowly.

The propblem is that for example loosing grip will always feel unreal because you can't rely on your bottom to detect small slipping
- the usual way to determin sliding in real life. Only your eyes, ears and eventually your hands (FF) can get feedback from the game.
Sounds offer good feedback as to what's going on. Tire scrub / squeal sounds are good for braking and cornering. Engine sounds are good for applying throttle, as long as the differential doesn't have too much locking factor. If engine rpms are increasing faster than they should, it's an indication that one of the driven tires is spinning.

Assuming that LFS S2's limited slip differential is modeled well, engine sound feedback should work well for throttle application, even on straights. A car can remain stable and in control with one driven tire spinning if the locking factor is low. Since this is player adjustable, the amount of sensitivity is adjustable.

Force feedback can help with steering inputs, depending on how the game models the force feedback. I noticed that with LFS S1, just enabling force feedback improved stability, even though my steering inputs were the same. The game was adjusting my inputs with the force feedback, so in essence, it was an stability assist. I don't know how much of this applies to LFS S2.

When the loss of grip is watched closely in replays using the force-view you can see that it seems very correct, nevertheless it feels strange. I don't think there is much LFS can do better to simulate this. Though of course I agree, that the regaining of grip doesn't seem to follow a realistic model.
One fix is pretty simple, adjust the tire model; specifically the sideways force versus slip angle curve so that it's more horizontal once past the peak force. This is one of the goals of the manufacturers of real racing tires, both DOT and slicks, to make them more forgiving.

recovery from off track incidents
There also seems to be some sort of recovery fudge factor that I can't figure out. The car seems to remain unstable for quite a while after going off track. I'm not sure what is trying to be simulated here. I can understand that it would be difficult to drive a high powered car on wet grass, but once it's back on the pavement, the tires quickly dry out.

[JeffR]

Yeah I don't understand your point about segmented tyres either JeffR. What should get hot during a lock up, the whole damn tyre? I think not.
No, but that wasn't my point. Although over a long period of time, the whole tire should heat up a little.

Two issues here, in LFS the hot spots are extremely small, and extremely insulated. Looking at the HUD temperatures, there can be a huge differernce in temperatures between the inside, middle, and outside of a tire, as well as from segment to segment, and can remain that way for quite a while. As mentioned before, even after 3 minutes, none of the surrounding cooler areas got any hotter.

[ColeusRattus]

Actually, the heat emitting to bordering segments seams a good ida to me. I can't imagine that won't happen IRL.

But if it is realisic, not only the heat should not only spread, but also decrease in the hotter areas as it spreads, because it is basically a transfer of energy. The one degree you need to heat up the neighbouring part is lost on the originating part. And this keeps going as long, as all the temps are equaled out...

EDIT: I know I said "lost" in one sentence with "energy", so all you scientists out there, don't throw stones at me. I just couldn't think of any other term which is as easy to understand.

EDIT 2: horrible typing.

[JeffR]

the heat should not only spread, but also decrease in the hoter areas as it spreads, because it is basically a transfer of energy.
Exactly my point. Especially when these hot spots are so extremely small and surrounded by realtivly large low temperature areas.

[tristancliffe]

How long have we had tyre temps? Is S2 Final? How long have we had dirt? Is S2 Final?

Think before you moan about the new features of LFS. Just because you own a caterham replica doesn't make a driving god, doesn't make you understand the technical side of things. You have not really ever impressed me with your technical knowledge, but you seem to be good at 'bs'ing your way through a conversation about tyres.

The devs know it's not perfect. They will be coming up with improvements over the coming months. IF your posts were constructive rather than 'LFS is rubbish' then it'd be much easier - in this thread it took about 8 posts to work out what you meant about the segment heating alone...

P.S. I may not have impressed you with MY technical knowledge either, but I'm not the one with two hundred 'LFS can't model tyres' posts, so don't try to be clever.

[sinbad]

Be careful with that handbag Tristan :)

I think it's clear that Jeff knows LFS is not finished, or else he wouldn't be posting here, in the "Improvement Suggestions" section.

I reallly don't like people using the "it's not finished yet" argument. Whether the criticism is justified or not, using this argument isn't a good defense. Obviously it concedes that LFS is wrong, but it also suggests that it isn't even worth judging yet on its own merit. Which it is, I think. It's not perfect, but then neither are any of the "complete" titles out there.
LFS is a fine product already, I don't think we have to suggest to people that they should wait until it's "finished" before they buy and enjoy it, which is, in effect, what is being suggested with these constant "don't judge it, it's not finished yet" arguments.

My two pence.

[tristancliffe]

I dislike those that use the 'it's not finished' argument all the time. But in this case he's his complaining of something thats ONLY been in a ALPHA version for a few months. Of course it's going to have flaws, but his posts don't seem to take into account the newness of anything.

S2 is a great product already, but comparing it to a finished & released game (eg rFactor - it's not meant to be a WIP and it's no better than LFS in some areas, and worse in most) isn't totally fair.

My 2 pence also (but in 1p coins).

[JeffR]

rubbish

LFS is not rubbish. I've never thought so, or I wouldn't be planning on buying S3 as I've have mentioned before. Owning a Caterham doesn't have anything to do with what I've posted here. I've compared the LX6 to my Caterham in the past, but that's not the point now. My suggestions are based on what I read from knowledgable sources, not my own experiences with just one car.

My reason for these comments is the fact the LFS is a game that is still in development, and that I'm hoping that the final result is a good simulation where the cars in LFS behave very much like their real world counter parts; the same amount of stability, the same reaction to control inputs, the same reaction to the environment (driving over wet spots, grass, dirt, gravel, weather effects, ...). I also want to experience a simulation that lets me push the cars to the limits of my ability, not to the limitation of the simulation.

As far as comparson to other games, my comments:

Grand Prix Legends has some wierd quirks in it's physics, but it's seems to have captured the essence of a good simulation in that the cars behave pretty close to their real life counterparts (based on expert testimonials), except since there's no personal risk of being splattered somewhere unpleasant, you can push harder than the real drivers did. (Example of wierd quirk, reverse reaction to steering when braking heavy, in this short video gplrs.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/cgi-bin/gplrs.wmv) . This behavior (induced understeer) would be expected while cornering, but not while going straight).

In the original German release of GTR (1.0), with all assists off, just about any minor loss of control of the car meant you ended up facing backwards. This may have been part of the reason that an actual GT class racer commented that GTR was more realistic with some of the assists turned on (as opposed to all assist off), the reason probably being that the physics weren't quite right. It was improved through the various versions, now up to version 1.4.

Nascar Racing Season 2003 is popular, 300 to 500 players online, but most are running superspeedway races, where the only time you lift on the throttle is to avoid drafting into the car in front of you. Little skill required (probably why it is so popular), mostly wreck avoidance, braking points for pitting, and the luck of exiting the pits right into a draft. I've won my share of these, but lost interest when I realized that other than qualifying, no skill was being developed (I went back to hot lapping Nordschliefe in GPL, wanting to get a sub 500 second (8:20) lap time, I got it down to an 8:15.32). The road courses require skill but far fewer players run on all two tracks (few add-on road courses used online). The main thing going for NR2003 is that it seems to handle 40 players in a single race fairly well, and the GTP mod is cool.

[tpa]

The tyre model is as close enough as we need.

:really:

Tristan, I don't get you. Do you have some kind of personal problem with JeffR? All of his points are very well made and it's obvious that he is only trying to help improve LFS.
All I read from you is rubbishing his suggestions, while you fail to make any!

I for my part appreciate his input on this matter because of his obvious technical knowledge. His new thread about the diffs just proves my point.

Thanks JeffR :thumb:

[csimpok]

:really:

Tristan, I don't get you. Do you have some kind of personal problem with JeffR? All of his points are very well made and it's obvious that he is only trying to help improve LFS.
All I read from you is rubbishing his suggestions, while you fail to make any!

I for my part appreciate his input on this matter because of his obvious technical knowledge. His new thread about the diffs just proves my point.

Thanks JeffR :thumb:

I absolutely think the same. Tristan behaves like a marketing manager or spokesman of LFS :)

I agree with JeffR's 3 suggestions about tyre physics: the transition between grip and slide needs to be slower/smoother, the effect of dirty tyres is exaggerated, the same with heating up when sliding.

Well, about the segments with different temperatures: I didn't make any tests but every time I locked up tyres in races (for example because of a hard braking) the temperature difference between the cool and hot parts of the tyre seemed to be decreasing and after a while it completely disappeared.

IMO the next step should be a dynamic track surface so rubber left on track would result in increasing grip throughout the race. (As I suggested it in my topic here at Improvement Suggestions.)

[tristancliffe]

No, it's not a personal dig at JeffR. That would be silly.

The issue I have is with a) the number of JeffR's posts on the same subject. If you were 'at' RSC you'd have seen many from him and b) the negative way they are put forward (although I know that reading them is very different sometimes from what's originally intended!).

He makes some good points, but none I (and therefore Scawen probably) haven't heard him make before. And I personally (which is by no means the right way, just my way) would start of with the problem, and then go into detail about a solution. Jeff's style appears to me to be 5 paragraphs of moan (but maybe I'm just reading it differently from what is intended. It's not like I have a major problem with the English language though).

[JeffR]

As stated, I'm just requesting some improvements for S2, while trying to provide techincal explanations for my requests. I'm assuming that this is a new audience here.

Also S2 is a big improvement over S1. The tire model and limited slip differential have greatly increased the stability. I'm just hoping to see this trend continue.

If you were 'at' RSC you'd have seen many from him.
Ah, the bad old days and my moaning about the LX6 in S1. Well, now all those posts are gone. I left RSC and had them delete all my posts.

optional off-topic reading follows:

I had an issue with their undocumented public warning policy and guilty until proven innocent attitude. When I pointed out that their public warnings violated their rule 4.1 about abuse, harassment, defamation, .... Mbrio demanded I mail a written letter agreeing to their undocumented policies or leave. I chose to leave.

[Silly]

Truly excellent posts and attitude, JeffR! :up:

Don't mind the occasional ad hominem attack - on the net, people usually type far faster than they can think rationally, which means they have to rely exclusively on preconceived notions and prejudice for the intellectual part. Happens to the best of us, I know it happened to me.

Read: Tristan, you're way off the mark.

[mdmx]

What comes to grip generally, i think the most important thing missing from LFS is G-forces, and we will never get them. Many peoples seems to compare LFS cars to their IRL cars. It's just isn't that ez think to do. You can't do the comparision based to what you feel in your bottom. Coz you are lacking that feeling in LFS. Also the sense of speed you see with your eyes is an issue. In real live your view of vision is much wider than in LFS, which means it seems you are going way faster with your IRL car than in LFS when going actually the same speed.

16:9 monitor may help with that, or using 3 monitors simulteousnly. :)

Take your IRL car and go to the parking area. Try to drive a circle. How fast you can do (see your speedometer), and what is the radius of that circle? Now, do the same in LFS. You will see that there is much much more grip in LFS, you just don't feel or see it in the same level than IRL.

Let me first state that I bought LFS S1 and S2, and plan to buy S3, but I think there are some issues with LFS:

The cars in LFS over react when the tires are pushed just a bit past the limits.

S2 is a big improvement over S1 in this aspect of the tire model, but it still isn't quite right yet. I don't know how LFS does it's tire physics, but in real life, there is no sudden transition from static (not slipping) to dynamic
etc...


It really depends on your tires and suspension you know. Generally, the more grip you have, the more you lose when sliding. The less grip you have, the less you lose when sliding. In racing cars, depending on setups, there is plenty of grip, much more than normal road car. Which means, you lose it more when starting to slide.

It's very ez to notice IRL, just drive on gravel and tarmac to the limit and drift a bit. On tarmac, the edge between grip and slide is much much more than on gravel. It's harder to drift on tarmac than on gravel.

Also you may try different tyres. I've got two set of tyres in my own car. 195 50R16 and 225 30R18. I use larger ones when im driving on the track. They give me much more grip, but it's much harder to drift with them. Coz when they lose it, they really _lose_ it. Also got my winter tyres, they are very smooth to drive on tarmac. :) They slide and wheeze all the time when going fast to the corner. It's very easy to drift with them, coz they lose grip so smoothly.. You got plenty of time to react. But in the other hand, they don't have much of it in the first place.

But in LFS the tyres maybe lose a little bit too much of it, im not sure. It's really hard to say, when you don't feel the G's.

Maybe if we take a equal IRL racing car and drive it with data logging systems, and then make the same in LFS, and compare the logged data, we can see.


tires take too long to regain grip after going off track

In real life, race cars often go off track, and back on track, and it doesn't take as long for grip to return as it does in LFS. If a race car travels over a wet patch (grass for example), the tires lose little heat, and dry up very quickly once back on the road, and at most tracks, they don't water the grass just before a race. Gravel traps use fairly large pebbles to prevent them from getting stuck into the tires and later flung off at other drivers.


Again, try this with your IRL road car:

- First try to drift in dry tarmac (not sure how much HP you got?)..
- Then drive thru a grass, maybe sliding a bit, like in LFS
- Then go back to the tarmac.. take it ez, i'm not responsible if you crash. The difference is HUGE!

But maybe it takes a bit too long before your tires cleans in LFS.


The tires in LFS heat up much too quickly when sliding

Not much to explain here, the model just seems to be wrong. The hot spots seem to develop almost instantly, and yet take a long time to dissapate.


God damnit, haven't you ever slide with a car IRL? Just slide a few seconds on tarmac, go out immetiadely, and feel your tyres. They are actually melting. Now, in your car i doubt you got slicks on it. The more grip, the more heat when sliding. So racing tyres heats up even a more than road tyres, a way more.

Again, it may take too long to cool down in LFS. Havent tried how long it takes if you drive slowly.


Segemented tire model

Again I don't know how this is implemented, but a contact patch varies in size depending the forces acting on it (downforce and accelerations), and the circumference of a tire flows continously through the contact patch, not in segments. If you lock up the tires under braking, even for a fairly short period, then look at tire temps while moving slowly, you can see a very small hot spot "segment". This isn't realistic.

Actually, rubber is very damn good heat isolator. But this is true, it's too good in LFS. The hotspot should start to spread accross the tire. Not much, but some.

[JeffR]

Take your IRL car and go to the parking area.
With slicks on my Caterham, it will pull about 1.4g's while cornering, but this is not the issue, as I think the amount of grip in LFS is fine. It's the reaction to loss of grip that seems to be exaggerated, which could be a differential or suspension issue and not a grip issue.

It really depends on your tires and suspension you know. Generally, the more grip you have, the more you lose when sliding.
This time I'm more of a typical example. The slicks and DOT racing tires for my car and almost all non-downforce cars are bias-ply (do a web search for bias ply racing tires). The amount of grip lost when sliding is much less than that of a typical radial street tire. Even radial racing tires lose less grip than street tires. The reaction to losing it is more severe simply because there is more lateral force on the car.

Depending on the setup, one trick that can be used is driver induced understeer, by steering the front tires inwards a bit past the point of maximum grip (slip angle). It allows a driver to force the car to respond to sliding with understeer instead of oversteer, assuming that it's not a case of very excessive throttle. You can't do this everywhere, or else the front tires will overheat.

car reaction to slippingIt's very ez to notice IRL. It's harder to drift on tarmac than on gravel.
Gravel is a special case because the surface (the gravel) moves). For a beter example, try drifting on ice versus pavement, pavement will be easier.

Also you may try different tyres ... Coz when they lose it, they really _lose_ it.
You should try bias ply tires, they will be much easier to drift than street radials. I've already mentioned that higher g forces lead to a faster reaction by the car when you do lose it.

Maybe if we take a equal IRL racing car and drive it with data logging systems
Check out this web site, the recent videos include data logging on the screen:

http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/

off track recoveryThen drive thru a grass, maybe sliding a bit, like in LFS, then go back to the tarmac..
This happens all the time, from fun runs to formula 1 cars. The cars go off track quite often, and after getting back on track, they're back up to speed in a very short time.

hot spotsSo racing tyres heats up even a more than road tyres, a way more. Again, it may take too long to cool down in LFS. Havent tried how long it takes if you drive slowly.
I agree that the tires should develop hot spots, it's just that these hot spots are very small and don't spread out over time. I was sitting still watching two very small hot spots take over 3 minutes to cool down from 120+ degrees to 100 degrees (Farenheight), while the adjacent areas didn't heat up at all. You can repeat this experiement for yourself.

[Sketchy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdmx
Take your IRL car and go to the parking area.



With slicks on my Caterham, it will pull about 1.4g's while cornering, but thisis not the issue, as I think the amount of grip in LFS is fine. It's the reaction to loss of grip that seems to be exaggerated, which could be a differential or suspension issue and not a grip issue.







I'd say your very close to the mark JeffR. Remember the beta physics test video where you could see side by side the reactions of the real car test and the GTi on the autocross layout? It might have been on RSC.

I have always felt, like most, that the physics seemed just wrong, but could never put my finger on it. At first I thought it was the general grip levels but they have been shown to be pretty accurate. Then I saw that video and it cleared it up for me. The easiest way to see and describe where the physics dont add up is in "Direction change"

You will notice direction change is very muddy and imprecise in LFS, as opposed to sharp and responsive on the real car. I have never been able to "chuck" a car in LFS into a corner with confidence the way I can in real life. Now sure, a lot of this has to do with the lack of tactile feedback (Gforces and what not) but its quite obvious from the video that direction change is not only off, its very off. I'd have a stab at it and say weight transfer and distribution arent modeled sharply enough along with a fudged or simplistic tyre model, but you seem to really know waht your talking about Jeff, so I'll leave it in your hands.

[JeffR]

I ran some experiements with LFS

This time I'm just reporting results from LFS experiements using the g meters. I chose the LX6 and road supers since it's a reasonably fast non-downforce car (also I own a similar car).

Under heavy braking the loss in grip if the tires are locked up is small (until they get overheated); looking at the g meter it's hard to even seen an initial loss in grip, but I'll "gestimate" it as less than 10%.

Cornering is a much different issue. I set a huge steering lock factor on the car to see what happens at large slip angles similar to what you get from a big oversteer reaction. The car pulls about 1.15g's in a corner, and drops to about 1.00 g's with both fronts a bit into the red (slipping). As I keep increasing the turn in to maximum lock, the cornering force continues to drop down, ending up below 0.8g's, a 30+% loss in cornering force. This would explain why once you lose it, it's so hard to recover.

[JeffR]

Remember the beta physics test video where you could see side by side the reactions of the real car test and the GTi on the autocross layout?

I never saw the video, but I'm guessing that was done back with LFS S1? S2 is a better, like to see the test run again.

[AndroidXP]

lol, sry for OT, but what's up with the text sizes? Do you have to compensate for Sketchy's small one? :D

[Sketchy]

heh

http://lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=1149&highlight=iso

thats the link to the video. I think its very early S2 Alpha, it is stated some physics chnages have taken place after this but it still might be off a bit. Its a good watch, the test needs to be done again using current code

[JeffR]

Yet another experiement, again with the LX6, set height to .30, set springs, rebound, and swaybars to max, bump to 5.0 (front and rear), and no camber (not needed with maxed out swaybars). Set diff to 60/60 % . This creates a car with near critcal oversteer. You initiate a turn with just a bit of steering, and then relax or counter steer through the turn, the car pretty much drifts through turns. If you keep the car from getting too far sideways, it responds almost imediately to steering inputs. Will keep working on this to see if I can control it. Very little steering lock is needed because once it's turning the fronts are mostly straightened out relative to the car while it drifts, sort of like an alien setup in GPL.

On the drag strip, I tried spinning the car, and grip remains very high, with the car almost sideways, over 1.1 with this setup. I'll have to try to see if I can get smaller slip angles on the slides to see whats going on.

[AndroidXP]

heh

http://lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=1149&highlight=iso

thats the link to the video. I think its very early S2 Alpha, it is stated some physics chnages have taken place after this but it still might be off a bit. Its a good watch, the test needs to be done again using current code
That's S1...

[Bob Smith]

Set diff to 60/60 % .
That's a lot of power side locking. But having the figures even makes for more even handling.

[apo3d]

Im using MS FF2 joystick. With digital gas and brake. It's not optimal, but i do pretty good with the GTI and the formula XR cars. And it's not like i just hold the buttons and hope all goes well. I really try to work and feel them.

i'm using a FFwheel with analog pedals and actually I DO hold the wheel tight and the pedals pressed and hope all goes well!
nah just kiddin`...i've bought a wheel because of this game, all i have to do now is buy a license :)
i really like the way cars handle in the game, it's realistic enough...the main difference is that if you have a RWD car and it starts to slide you feel it in your whole body, not only in the steering wheel.one more thing, does anybody have force feedback pedals? you know that ABS systems push the pedal back a little, so you can actually feel when ABS does its job. that would be nice to feel :)

[Vain]

In LFS no ABS-cars are allowed. That's be against the rules of the racing-organizations. So no need for FF-pedals.
Though I think it would be nice to have your wheel and pedals/pedalset shake when you jump over curbs...

Vain

[apo3d]

well, what about the brake help? isn't that some sort of abs? if you're playing by keyboard it can help you a lot.

[Vain]

As far as I know the LFS-braking-assistance doesn't work like the ABS (brake pushing back when wheel lock is detected) but just won't increase the braking force over the maximum of the tyres, regardless the pedal-input.

Vain

[--==Gogo==--]

In LFS no ABS-cars are allowed. That's be against the rules of the racing-organizations. So no need for FF-pedals.
Though I think it would be nice to have your wheel and pedals/pedalset shake when you jump over curbs...

Vain

Force Feedback Pedals!! YEHAW! Where can i buy this?? ;)

[Bob Smith]

FFB pedals would be nice for when we get brake fade. But just plain non-FFB but decent pedals would make a nice start.

[Slartibartfast]

What comes to grip generally, i think the most important thing missing from LFS is G-forces, and we will never get them. Many peoples seems to compare LFS cars to their IRL cars. It's just isn't that ez think to do. You can't do the comparision based to what you feel in your bottom. Coz you are lacking that feeling in LFS. Also the sense of speed you see with your eyes is an issue. In real live your view of vision is much wider than in LFS, which means it seems you are going way faster with your IRL car than in LFS when going actually the same speed.I don't mean this as a personal attack in any way. I don't mean it to sound as negative as it's going to, but it's going to...

I am so completely done with this argument. It's gotten totally out of hand. Yes! Of course we don't get G forces with the typical home sim setup! But that does not mean we can't feel them!!! A lot of sims have allowed for the feeling of Gs, and done a damn proper job of it too. LFS is at the top of that list. Once we get involved with the GUI/AUI/FUI, which is probably more a matter of seat time than anything else - besides horrendously bad programing - we subconsciously fill in the blanks and start to feel *everything*. That is exactly the reason we are narrowing in on what the problem is in LFS. It is a real problem, that can be felt due to the excellent feel provided by LFSs excellent interface. As far as sense of speed goes, I use less trackside markers in LFS than I've been able to in any other sim. Driving by feel, with flow, is more possible than ever.

The problem is in the tires.

And JeffR nailed a few things on the head. In my experience, you can run the racing slicks we use on karts at full wheelspin for the duration of their tread life with only a slightly noticable loss of grip. (Unfortunately the usual place you would drive with constant wheelspin, like concrete, doesn't offer up much grip in a proper racing line, so it's hard to tell how much the tires have lost. On the other hand, sometimes I drive a couple of laps aluminum-to-chromemoly-lock-sideways steering only with the right foot on asphalt because I think it's fun. When I decide to drive normal again the kart works very well. I can't tell a difference, but I'm about a 2 seconds a minute from the champions. In a kart, 2 seconds a minute is a career of practice and accuracy, and that skill that I don't yet have may be the difference in grip I'm missing.) Driving the tires like that will limit life however, to 6 or 10 minutes. Road tires, like the BFG T/A are insane once they overheat. They lose grip and it doesn't come back for a long time. You have to stop and let the car sit. I've never overheated a road tire in a road car, but in a race car it's almost too easy. As far as temps goes, it seem LFS has the race tire, road tire thing backwards. But my road experience far outweighs my track experience.


On racing slicks I've driven on drying tracks, through puddles big enough to splash my visor, gotten sideways in the water (because I think it's fun) and had commandable grip by the next corner. Unfortunately to this discussion, when ever I've put wheels in gravel, I've never followed that with rejoining the track. I've practiced in enough dusty parking lots to know that a wheel in dirt does compromise grip quite a bit, and it seems to be cumulative. Once or twice, no problem, the stuff scrubs off pretty quickly. (I wouldn't say more quickly than LFS, because while I can see the dirt linger in F9 view, the tires feel right. So I don't know. I can't argue with the way the dirt is now.) If you keep going through the dirt, it's like the tire eventually becomes made of the dirt and you've got nothing. Trying to burn it off doesn't seem to help. You just ruined a tire. Dirt is bad on racing slicks. On road tires, well... once again, it's never bothered me and I go from asphalt to dirt 80 times on my way to work, and 80 times on my way home. Granted, I'm usually only at 8 or 9/10ths, and never over that, but the Michelin LTX A/T doesn't seem to care either way. And I do spend a lot of energy experimenting with things like: sliding sidways on ashpalt - into downhill corner on camber - into dirt at exit off camber - over shoulder crown back onto asphalt. Then every permutation of that kind of thing that Hyde Park Rd. has to offer. There are at least 4 jumps in the middle of corners that land in either pavement or dirt, your choice.... You can see, I do spend a good deal of real time on street tires in dirt... Of course there is less grip in the dirt. That is adjusted for with anticipation. Once back on the black stuff there is then a time when the tires produce less grip. That time is very, very short. The street tires regain grip from dirt so fast it's hard to guage sometimes. I am almost always mentally prepared for the lessened grip to last longer than it really does and return of grip catches me by surprise frequently. (But I think that's fun too.) I am certainly missing that lateral "wall" the tires hit when they regain grip. At 10/10ths, I can understand, you've got nowhere to go but around. But when I know I've over shot and am going to put a wheel off no matter what, and pull up a bit and get the car back to 8 or 9/10ths asphalt limit, it shoud feel a certain way and it does not. That's that. It's not bad... it just is. That's the problem, lateral grip curves. I know that because I can really feel the car in LFS.

Water and street tires is different, but since no water in LFS I'll leave that but to say that I find dirt slightly more predictable.

[axus]

Jeasus people! If you suck at driving LFS shouldn't be modelled to make you look good. Do you drive your super-realistic GTR with driving aids on? Because when I drive a powerful RWD car in GTR the tail slides with TC off. Perhaps even more than LFS... (but that may just be GTR's lack of proper damper feedback, because I don't slide in LFS as many claim to). Go on the auto-cross area and learn to CATCH A SLIDE, and KEEP THE SLIDE UNDER CONTROL. Do you think any of the real racing drivers just went and drove on a track and all was good and well? No. So why do you expect you should be able to?

Admitedly there is a problem with the tyre physics at low speeds but it is nothing that affects a race at racing speeds...

[Slartibartfast]

Admitedly there is a problem with the tyre physics at low speeds but it is nothing that affects a race at racing speeds...

That's a hard statement to defend. Just load up the default setup in the RX7 thingy, LX6, RAC, FZ50, F0X, or F08 and tule around Blackwood. If you are not getting neutral throttle oversteer with minumum steering angle at realistic speeds, then I want to know exactly what you are using. Mobo, chip, brand of memory, monitor and wheel.

That being said. Setups are getting to the point now that the cars can be driven very, VERY realistically.

[axus]

Who said anything about the default setups? Those are appauling...

[askoff]

The default setups in LFS has nothing to do the default setups IRL cars. I bet that all the normal cars have quite "easy to drive setups". The default setups in LFS are there for only becaus all of the paramters must have some default values.

[axus]

That's a hard statement to defend. Just load up the default setup in the RX7 thingy, LX6, RAC, FZ50, F0X, or F08 and tule around Blackwood.

Thought I'd take you up on that - here are the replays, all done with the default setup, (I don't know what you mean by RX7 thingy - obviously some incranation of the XR car, but which one? - so I haven't done a lap in that). There are some obvious setup changes that need to be done - first and fore-most the brakes on the FZ50... jeesh, I was going crazy trying to keep the rear behind me in that thing under braking, but it was fine in the corners... maybe a bit on the tail-happy side. Softening the rear roll-bar or stiffening the front would help too, but I would go with the stiffer front first because it mainly oversteers in the chicane and that feels like it is because the car rolls around too much. Maybe stiffen both but the front a bit more than the rear. You could also try softening the rear tyres a bit. The diff on the Raceabout needs some tweaking - the thing just lets go very quickly under power after a certain point but before that it is fairly understeery so I would suggest a greater power locking factor. Also the rear toe in on the Raceabout needs to be increased - the thing weaves down the straight. Also the rear looses grip over the smallest bump, so I couldn't use full throtle when comming down the hill to cross the s/f line. The rear suspension could use a few tweaks. The LX6 was well behaved IMO. Other than that, the formula cars were UNDERsteering like crazy - I have no idea where you found oversteer in those. Bear in mind that I was not driving very fast - this is one of my first laps of BL1 in the FZ50, RAC and LX6. I have driven the FO8 a bit, but no more than 20 laps and the same goes for the FOX. Regarding the road cars in there (FZ50, RAC, LX6), if I took my everyday ride to a track, I wouldn't expect them to handle any better than they did. Maybe a bit more understeer in the FZ50 but the other two were fine. These are default road setups, not default racing setups. On the road you find a lot more bumps and you don't usually want to keep your foot in it over them, just glide over them comfortably. The two racing cars were EASY to drive and those felt like default racing setups - medium downforce, understeer, good brakes. A nice base for your track-specific race setup. These are the tweaks that I would recommend for the default setups. Perhaps they will be sorted out in a future version, but for now you can give this a try. Also, I don't really see the poorish default setups on these cars any problem. The slower ones have easy-to-drive default setups, and by the time you have moved on to driving these you should know a thing or two about setups...

[Slartibartfast]

Well, I watched the replays but noticed that you certainly are not afflicted with "the problem". So I decided to make some replays of my own to demonstrate the problem I was trying to describe. My main complaint was with this:

"it is nothing that affects a race at racing speeds..."

I believed there is a problem at speed. So I was to make a replay of what I've been calling "neutral throttle oversteer at realistic speeds with realistic steering input".

Nothing. Buppkiss. The defualt and race1 setups work great. They handle as you describe. Not perfect, but no NTOARSWRSI. Now I'm freaking out.

I know I had the problem in S2. I know a lot of others complained about the same thing. I know others are complaining of it right now. I also know that I can perform in a testing manner, in other words, precise throttle, brake, and steering control, no matter how new I am to a sim. I know I've gotten better at setting up cars in LFS and haven't had a problem in a while. I assumed it was setup and driving style. But I know it was so severe that it should be easy to recreate. No luck. So where did it go?

Well, what has changed besides my ability to read LFS in the time I've been driving S2? Uh... just about everything. Almost all of my OPTIONS have changed. For a moment I considered going through all of them to try to troubleshoot the problem. But LFS is just the way I like it and I don't want to lose what I have. Also, I am very pressed for time. The way I set up my controller in windows has changed, and how I set it up in LFS.

I reset my controller in a few different ways. At one point for two turns the car started acting like it had NTOARSWRSI. But then sorted itself out on the same lap. ?? I have not been able to replicate the problem. Could it be an interface thing?

That being said I prefer softer front, stiffer rear cars. But what I thought I was refering to had little to do with reasonable setups. It was a real, severe, undrivable, NTOARSWRSI thing. I've been hopping in and out of sims long enough to know when it's not me. At the time I stopped having problems, too much was going on for me to pinpoint it from memory.

If anyone has the box stock cfg.txt, I wouldn't mind trying it to see if I can figure out why I think I'm losing my mind.

There is another problem that I have with the grip that I can demonstrate and recreate, but it's not "ice on the tires" so I'll leave that for now.

[axus]

What I found was that in S1 I sturggled with these problems most definately... Very severely. I could drive only the XR GT and the XF GTi. But in S2, everything clicked and I got this mad throttle control from nowhere. I think its a case of S2 having more informative feedback and pointing out your mistakes very quickly compared to S1. In S1, only people who had the throttle control from another sim or real life managed. S2 is a lot better in that department. About the settings - if you just remove the .cfg file or place it in another folder, LFS changes to default settings. If you are on a logitech wheel DO NOT use any other value than 100% for the force in the windows settings - it creates a horrible wobble effect. Use something like 25%-60% FF in LFS depending on what car you are driving. The other settings, I haven't even touched. All the axis in the profiler are 50% sensitivity, 0% dead zone, 100% range. The LFS settings are defaults too, other than the FF I think.

[Woz]

Well, I watched the replays but noticed that you certainly are not afflicted with "the problem". So I decided to make some replays of my own to demonstrate the problem I was trying to describe. My main complaint was with this:

"it is nothing that affects a race at racing speeds..."

I believed there is a problem at speed. So I was to make a replay of what I've been calling "neutral throttle oversteer at realistic speeds with realistic steering input".

Nothing. Buppkiss. The defualt and race1 setups work great. They handle as you describe. Not perfect, but no NTOARSWRSI. Now I'm freaking out.

I know I had the problem in S2. I know a lot of others complained about the same thing. I know others are complaining of it right now. I also know that I can perform in a testing manner, in other words, precise throttle, brake, and steering control, no matter how new I am to a sim. I know I've gotten better at setting up cars in LFS and haven't had a problem in a while. I assumed it was setup and driving style. But I know it was so severe that it should be easy to recreate. No luck. So where did it go?

Well, what has changed besides my ability to read LFS in the time I've been driving S2? Uh... just about everything. Almost all of my OPTIONS have changed. For a moment I considered going through all of them to try to troubleshoot the problem. But LFS is just the way I like it and I don't want to lose what I have. Also, I am very pressed for time. The way I set up my controller in windows has changed, and how I set it up in LFS.

I reset my controller in a few different ways. At one point for two turns the car started acting like it had NTOARSWRSI. But then sorted itself out on the same lap. ?? I have not been able to replicate the problem. Could it be an interface thing?

That being said I prefer softer front, stiffer rear cars. But what I thought I was refering to had little to do with reasonable setups. It was a real, severe, undrivable, NTOARSWRSI thing. I've been hopping in and out of sims long enough to know when it's not me. At the time I stopped having problems, too much was going on for me to pinpoint it from memory.

If anyone has the box stock cfg.txt, I wouldn't mind trying it to see if I can figure out why I think I'm losing my mind.

There is another problem that I have with the grip that I can demonstrate and recreate, but it's not "ice on the tires" so I'll leave that for now.

It could simply be that you have put more wheel hours in now so that you are able to read and understand what LFS is telling you and so any issues you did have have been compensated for or your driving style has adapted enough to deal with it now.

As for reasonable setups, this has a big factor because people have started to learn how to set up the cars better. Bob's setups are great and I think should be included in LFS as the defaults. The easy race and road sets would help people learning the sim.

[axus]

It could simply be that you have put more wheel hours in now so that you are able to read and understand what LFS is telling you and so any issues you did have have been compensated for or your driving style has adapted enough to deal with it now.

As for reasonable setups, this has a big factor because people have started to learn how to set up the cars better. Bob's setups are great and I think should be included in LFS as the defaults. The easy race and road sets would help people learning the sim.

There is an idea - multiple default setups, allowing people to learn the effects that setup changes have on a car and therefore allowing them to progress in that field :thumb:

[Slartibartfast]

It could simply be that you have put more wheel hours in now so that you are able to read and understand what LFS is telling you and so any issues you did have have been compensated for or your driving style has adapted enough to deal with it now.
It's freaking me out. That is the first thing I thought. I went to Blackwood because I had a huge problem with NTOARSWRSI at turn 4. (If the whole chicken is turn two.) I tested there a lot. To verify to myself that there was a problem. When I'd test it was, wheels on the black stuff the whole time, consistent speed to one mph from turn three, steering angle checked by using the wheel view. The things would spin at turn in.

The first thing I noticed today was that I countersteer and modulate the throttle and brakes a lot based on where I am on what track. So, yes. I have learned a lot about LFS. It took a concerted effort to simply go 67mph (let's say) on the spot without lifting or throttling up when I felt the need. I tried steering at several different angles from too little to too much. I am very consistant and have learned how to test a sim for persnality. I've also been driving LFS since the first demo days. I have always, and today did run a legitimate test. Nothing.

Ah well, when I get the time I'll load that cfg.txt that a kind soul sent me.

PS, all my setups are based on either Bob's or RmachucaA's set. Brilliant, those two.

[Slartibartfast]

OK, I tried the stock cfg.txt.

Very, very bad. I didn't have time to test it, don't know when I will. I do intend to go through it one by one. But it might be a while. I'm starting to think that those who are complaining probably have some sort of controller issue.

Athlon XP 1600+ at 1.4gig, MSI K7T266 Pro2 (non raid) pure VIA chipset, 768MB ram (is it pc2100? Anyway, it's matched to the motherboard at 266mhz), Windows XP Home 5.1 build 2600 SP2, DirectX 9.0c, ATI Radeon 9600XT AGP 128mb DDR, Creative SB PCI 512, Creative Modem Blaster V.92 PCI DI 5633, TSW Sport with *analog* controller plugged into the mobo. (XP absolutely hates the analog controller.)

[Breizh]

What's NTOARSWRSI ?

[Woz]

OK, I tried the stock cfg.txt.

Very, very bad. I didn't have time to test it, don't know when I will. I do intend to go through it one by one. But it might be a while. I'm starting to think that those who are complaining probably have some sort of controller issue.

Athlon XP 1600+ at 1.4gig, MSI K7T266 Pro2 (non raid) pure VIA chipset, 768MB ram (is it pc2100? Anyway, it's matched to the motherboard at 266mhz), Windows XP Home 5.1 build 2600 SP2, DirectX 9.0c, ATI Radeon 9600XT AGP 128mb DDR, Creative SB PCI 512, Creative Modem Blaster V.92 PCI DI 5633, TSW Sport with *analog* controller plugged into the mobo. (XP absolutely hates the analog controller.)

Could be pure and simple framerate or changing framerate. I find I drive better the stable framerate. Also the faster the rate the slower and smother everything feels so the more natural it feels. Lets you read weight thransfer better etc.

I have mine locked at 40fps as I play on a laptop and while it will turn in higher it will bounce around. 40 gives me a solid fps.

[Slartibartfast]

NTOARSWRSI is just me abreviating myself after post #107. Neutral throttle oversteer at realistic speeds with realistic steering input.

I do have my frame rate capped at 40 and I have the reduce detail functions on. (I think it's funny when the farthest cars in front of me are just blocks at the start of populated races.) GFX and controller options are the first things I am going to check when I get more than ten minutes, as I have both a slowish computer and archaic controller interface.

[Slartibartfast]

Well... I went and did some testing this morning and came up with almost nothing.

By loading the original cfg.txt I got cars that suffered from Sudden Unexpected Oversteer at all turn phases except NTOARSWRSI. So now I have to wonder if that was an S1 thing that I confused with S2 by not paying careful attention after starting to use S2.

I think the Sudden Unexpected Oversteer Syndrome may be mostly GUI realated and cumulative to a number of settings, but have some suspects that are high on the list. At least when considering my personal machine/driving style/occular disposition.

I started out by driving the FOX on Fern Bay Club because it is short and it yeilds the problems I was having. I used my test setup because it's crazy stable, predictable, and I know it inside and out. I ran there using mycfg.txt until I attained *consistent meandering* laps. I then loaded the originalcfg.txt and calibrated, locked, and changed wheel turn compensation. None of these adjustments made any change to the way the car handled and it still suffered from SUOS.

How did the car handle? It seemed heavier, did not respond quickly, was later than I expected in every aspect. The front took longer to set and reading grip front and rear was compromised. The rear would come away after it seemed to be set.

I changed Limit Frame Rate to 40. No effect. Then, back to the same page and because I am starting to think this is a GUI problem, changed Sound Lag from the default 20ms to 10ms. Something definately changed. The car was about 50% less evil in mid to late corner oversteer. How could this be? While we can hear 10ms delays, is our right foot/thought process/computer latency so sensitive that 10ms makes that much of a difference to our control factor? I changed the setting to 30ms. No difference in how the car reacted. But overall, a major improvment in the drive by adjusting Sound Lag. ? I changed it back to 20. From time to time the car would act poorly but not always.

I reloaded mycfg drove a lap then reloaded originalcfg.

Right back where I started. Again, controller and frame rate adjustments. Car was bad again suffering from SUOS. This time I didn't touch Sound Lag but went straight for Field of View and changed it to what I am used to. That cured a good amount of my timing problems and the car lost a good 60% of it's non responsive personality, but still, definitely suffered from the same traits. I adjusted Sound Lag again and got a noticable improvment in SUOS.

At this point I was recording in hotlap mode thinking that my Options screen adjustments would be recorded. I was wrong and did not write down what I was doing. But it was something like this:

I do not use FF. Turning Force Strength to 0 from 80 made a noticable difference in SUOS. Changing Minimum Sleep from 1 to 3 may or may not have made a difference. Calibration Lock and Remove Deadzone made no noticable difference. Because I don't use FF I turned the engine sound down and the tire sounds all the way up. Made the car easier to handle, but it still suffered. Not as much as orginally. Driver wheel on and off, no difference.

At this point I'm not sure if any of the changes I've made are actually changing my ability to drive LFS or if I'm getting used to driving it in this manner. I change everthing back and it gets better in the SUOS area but is worse in my ability to understand what's going on. What? It's better with everything back to original? Is it a matter of flicking things on and off, or is it all in the GUI and my interpretation?

I reload mycfg run lap, then reload originalcfg. Now this time I'm positive the car is better. Even with all the defaults. Are there other settings in the game that are changed through the cfg.txt, but not ultimately controlled by the cfg.txt that are not changing? A few more reloads of this nature and each time the car is more and more consistently like it is in mycfg.

I give up. I know for a fact that with the original cfg this morning the car was goofy. I did not nail it down to one setting like I had hoped to, and it is significantly better after me futtzing with it for a couple of hours. I'm not sure it's entirely GUI related. The Sound Lag switching has me wondering about things I can't wonder. Like, does my personal computer need to be tricked into resourcing the game correctly? I don't know these things.

As fate would have it. A couple of the GURU drivers have been working on a subjective guide to the Options screen that should help a lot with any problems GUI related.

My cfg is working fine, so while I don't have any answers, I am having the time of my life with LFS. That counts for something, eh?

[AndroidXP]

Nice to hear :thumb:

[Bob Smith]

Errrr.... what was that post all about? I find the cars more difficult to drive with low FPS, but I don't think any singular option makes any difference, you're not changing the physics after all.

I can race nearly as well with the sound muted, since I primarily drive through the FFB anyway, but hearing tyre noises certainly helps.

[Slartibartfast]

There are people complaining about soap on the track, or unexpected oversteer. I was one of them until a few months ago, at which time, I had been changing so much on a daily basis I couldn't say what the changes were that made LFS work correctly for me.

Out of curiosity I loaded up the original cfg.txt file and used a setup that I know is very, very good and drove a track that I have "wired". The original cfg.txt brought the evil handling car back immediately. This morning I thought I would troubleshoot it by adjusting settings, one at a time, back to the way my cfg is now until I clicked the one that is causing the unexpected loss of traction.

No luck. The game seemed to keep improving throughout the session, almost regardless of cfg settings. Before you say I'm nuts, this morning I guarantee the problem was there. The cure seems to be illusive and dynamic. The point is though, that yes, somehow the physics are dynamic. Or, the perception of what's happening leads to reactions from the driver that become unpredictable. My goal was to prove it was in the contoller setup as I am using an analog controller input in XP. I figured that was a likely suspect. Not so though...

Do you consider 40fps low? I'd love to have more, but I'm on an older machine.

I wish there were rewind or clip in the replay. It's a pain to foward to try to analyze a single common event in several long replays.

[Woz]

There are people complaining about soap on the track, or unexpected oversteer. I was one of them until a few months ago, at which time, I had been changing so much on a daily basis I couldn't say what the changes were that made LFS work correctly for me.

Out of curiosity I loaded up the original cfg.txt file and used a setup that I know is very, very good and drove a track that I have "wired". The original cfg.txt brought the evil handling car back immediately. This morning I thought I would troubleshoot it by adjusting settings, one at a time, back to the way my cfg is now until I clicked the one that is causing the unexpected loss of traction.

No luck. The game seemed to keep improving throughout the session, almost regardless of cfg settings. Before you say I'm nuts, this morning I guarantee the problem was there. The cure seems to be illusive and dynamic. The point is though, that yes, somehow the physics are dynamic. Or, the perception of what's happening leads to reactions from the driver that become unpredictable. My goal was to prove it was in the contoller setup as I am using an analog controller input in XP. I figured that was a likely suspect. Not so though...

Do you consider 40fps low? I'd love to have more, but I'm on an older machine.

I wish there were rewind or clip in the replay. It's a pain to foward to try to analyze a single common event in several long replays.

A solid 40 is fine, 80 would feel even more fluid and even faster more so.

The real key with framerate is that it remains solid. It can be hard to detect the difference between say 40 and 50 fps but its very easy to detect something bouncing between 30 and 40 all the time. The fluctuation will effect many things probably including physics rate.

I think the key with a sim like LFS in the end though really is milage behind the wheel. FFB also helps a huge amount as the LFS FFB really does communicates a great deal of info about the car and where the weight is located without all that fake effect shite that appears on so many other games/sims.

I recently, for my sins :), purchased rFactor. Coming from LFS I found it felt dead and lifeless and the FF washed out and weak even on max settings. As a result I find it hard to know what state the car is in at any given time so I crash or take corners far too slow. It might be that if I put more hours in it will feel better to me. I get the feeling this is the same thing people go through starting LFS, it really is a massive learning curve for a sim of this level its just that I have put so many hours and miles into LFS now that I know what it is telling me.

For your cfg, do you tweak the FOV setting. I think the default is high. I run about 65 now and its far more natural than the warping effects that a high FOV like 80+ will give you.

[Slartibartfast]

I do tweak FOV, that was one of my first suspects because it affects my control timing so much. Unfortunately, it didn't have as great an effect on the spinning problem as I'd hoped.

I looked at the replay this morning because this is bugging the crap out of me. All four wheels just suddenly lose grip in a place, that makes sense on a physical level, but that really is no problem to drive through with my current cfg. I need to figure out how to use the telemetry program.