Wind Noise

[Tez4]

I was wondering... what's up with the wind noise in this game? Is it reallistic to drive an F1 car really fast down a straight and have more noise from the wind than from your engine. I have the wind level in the game as low as it will go and this is still the case for me. Is this a bug, or is it like this for evryone? I can't imagine that being very realistic, especially in some of the bigger closed in cars (FXR, XRR, FZR).

What volume do you all have your different sound levels set at?

[Highsider9]

I think it is the "tire rolling sound" wich is so loud. :shrug:

[Tez4]

I think it is the "tire rolling sound" wich is so loud. :shrug:


Is that what that is? I actually had thought it could be that, but it is just soooo loud. Is there anyway to turn it down, or is this much road noise actually realistic in a racecar. From in car cameras when you watch a race on television, it seems like you would mostly just hear the engine from inside your helmet.

[pb32000]

This has been discussed before. I dont know about the single seaters, but I can tell you from experience in an LX type car (and thats not a quiet car), once you get above 80 or so you can mainly hear wind noise, I would say by 100 it drowns out the exhaust note.

Tyre rolling noise doesnt play a part really. Of course IRL there are hundreds of other noises which arent replicated in LFS, but as I say, at high speeds the wind noise drowns them all out.

[Skullman]

One problem is when your watching a replay from a third-person view, as a car zooms past (like the Sauber) you can hear the noise as if you were sat in the cockpit. That isnt right.

[Tez4]

This has been discussed before. I dont know about the single seaters, but I can tell you from experience in an LX type car (and thats not a quiet car), once you get above 80 or so you can mainly hear wind noise, I would say by 100 it drowns out the exhaust note.

Tyre rolling noise doesnt play a part really. Of course IRL there are hundreds of other noises which arent replicated in LFS, but as I say, at high speeds the wind noise drowns them all out.

Thank you for your insight. :)

[ATHome]

But what I found really unrealistic is the simple fact that you hear the wind noise from outside in TV cam.
When I was at DTM or F1 you really can't hear anything other than the engine noise, when a car screams past you...

There should be kind of a .cfg that lets you adjust every volume which is heard in game.

[Keith Carter]

I race an F2000 formula car in the US and although it may not be an obvious noise you hear, you do in fact hear and feel the wind. Aside from that fact though, I absolutely love the fact that there is wind noise in the sim. It adds another dimension to the game giving you a sense of speed, something of which sims have been lacking up until now. It helps to make up of the lack of feel that any sim gives compared to the real thing.

[deggis]

And what about the "crashing" sound that just breaks your headphones and ears? Probably the most annoying thing in LFS... There are wav files in D:\Live For Speed\data\snd folder and afaik the crashing sound is produced when the tyres touch the ground. I've put the ScrapeHard.wav and ScrapeSoft.wav sounds to 0% volume but I couldn't get rid of the sound. :shrug:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

On the replays and from 3rd parties, it's not wind noise, it's tire noise I am sure.

Go outside and listen on the street, you can hear constant tire noise from cars, so yes it's realistic to have that. Not sure about the proportions in the different cars (IE Slicks probably don't make as much noise as a treaded tire)
but it's perfect on the road cars IMHO. Pay more attention IRL, you'll notice it. Heck, I can hear it inside my car at ANY speed. Also, try standing outside during even a 50km/h wind.... Can you hear it? How about a 100km/h wind? (!) Seems loud!

[Christian Seidel]

The sound of the wind generated by a helmet that you are wearing directly on your ears is VERY loud at medium speed already. I'm sure the wind noise at about 300 km/h would be enormous. Although I haven't tried myself:), I find it possible that the noise generated at F1-speeds can reach levels of an unsilenced engine like F1's are. But you can't really hear this from the outside since the impression of loudness in this case comes mainly from the sound being produced directly at your ears.

[bal00]

If anything I'd say there's too little wind noise in the closed cars. In road cars, once over 120mph, the engine is basically inaudiable. In quicker cars a passenger will not be able to tell if it's sitting at the rev limiter in 5th at 140mph or turning 5k rpm in 6th.

Same goes for the GTR's basically. Here's a video of a 700hp 911 race car which should be relatively close to the FZR in terms of noise. All you hear at higher speeds is wind and drivetrain, but you can't really tell where he lifts:
http://www.blinkerfluid.net/video/Nurburgring%20-%20Alzen_996_turbo_700HP.avi
(It's also rather entertaining to watch if you not interested in noise levels, btw)

[rAcEr2418]

Yes, I agree that the wind noise is pretty realistic. Really, onboard F1 cams dont really produce whats in the helmet because the cam is directly picking up the engine that is <1 metre away. I do think that at speeds in excess of 300 km/h the wind does take over anything, because of the violent nature of the air at that speed when hitting the cars different compounds. Now in a road car in excess of, 160 km/h, (which i have first-hand experience in) the engine is completely drowned out depending on the car or speed. The road/tyre noise and wind are much louder than the engine. And like stated before, treaded tyres are much louder than slicks. So, there may be a couple things off, but for the most part, i like the sound balance. Just not the actual engine sounds. But actually, I am quite proud of the BF1 engine sound from within the cockpit. I think it has a very striking similarity to the onboard cams in F1, which, in this case is accurate because it is picking up the engine. BUT, the noise from spectating/tv cam needs lots of work. It needs that distinct whine only F1 cars have, although, really, nothing is like the V10's, the V8's just dont sound as good, but they are growing on me :)

[colcob]

Yeah, remember the relative volume of sounds depends very strongly on how close to you ears they are. So the sound 'source' for wind noise is all around you and particularly your helmet and surrounding bodywork. The main output source for the engine noise is the exhaust, which is behind you and pointing the other way.

[TagForce]

Same goes for the GTR's basically. Here's a video of a 700hp 911 race car which should be relatively close to the FZR in terms of noise. All you hear at higher speeds is wind and drivetrain, but you can't really tell where he lifts:
http://www.blinkerfluid.net/video/Nurburgring%20-%20Alzen_996_turbo_700HP.avi
(It's also rather entertaining to watch if you not interested in noise levels, btw)

All I hear when there's wind is clipping... Nothing to do with the volume of the individual sounds.

[Krane]

Word of warning, in the attached video volume is turned up so that if you have your system volume on fairly normal level the sauber should scream bit closer to what it does in IRL, so watchout if you're using headphones or pets are laying on your megahifispeakers.


After you have watched the video I attached, compare to this (http://www.gjt.bme.hu/autosport/motorhangok/BRM_V16_Mk_2.mp3) Hmmm... :shrug: :x


NB: Incase you missed it, my point is how the sound behaves and how far you can hear it - the engine that is. Although I wouldn't mind having cars that sounds like the BRM in the MP3 in LFS http://www.bayareadesign.com/gcvt/computers/pics/drool_b.gif

[deggis]

Same goes for the GTR's basically. Here's a video of a 700hp 911 race car which should be relatively close to the FZR in terms of noise. All you hear at higher speeds is wind and drivetrain, but you can't really tell where he lifts:
http://www.blinkerfluid.net/video/Nurburgring%20-%20Alzen_996_turbo_700HP.avi
(It's also rather entertaining to watch if you not interested in noise levels, btw)
http://0wn3d.nl/temp/VTS_02_1_NEW.avi

Different onboard video of the same Alzen Porsche 911, also at the Ring.

[Tez4]

If anything I'd say there's too little wind noise in the closed cars. In road cars, once over 120mph, the engine is basically inaudiable. In quicker cars a passenger will not be able to tell if it's sitting at the rev limiter in 5th at 140mph or turning 5k rpm in 6th.

Same goes for the GTR's basically. Here's a video of a 700hp 911 race car which should be relatively close to the FZR in terms of noise. All you hear at higher speeds is wind and drivetrain, but you can't really tell where he lifts:
http://www.blinkerfluid.net/video/Nurburgring%20-%20Alzen_996_turbo_700HP.avi
(It's also rather entertaining to watch if you not interested in noise levels, btw)

Wow, that video REALLY makes me appreciate how realistic LFS actually is. I love this game more all the time. :nana:

Thank you all for answering all my questions in great detail. :thumb:

[TagForce]

After you have watched the video I attached, compare to this (http://www.gjt.bme.hu/autosport/motorhangok/BRM_V16_Mk_2.mp3) Hmmm... :shrug: :x


NB: Incase you missed it, my point is how the sound behaves and how far you can hear it - the engine that is. Although I wouldn't mind having cars that sounds like the BRM in the MP3 in LFS http://www.bayareadesign.com/gcvt/computers/pics/drool_b.gif

That BRM sounds like a NASCAR V8 at the lower RPMs... But yes, LFS needs a lot of work on the external sounds, and especially how the sound reflects across the land and vegetation.

[Cue-Ball]

I agree that the external sounds are a bit loud at times. The in-car wind noise seems about right to me, though I don't think I've changed the level on my setup from stock. I think one thing that may make the wind noise seem extra loud is the fact that other noises are missing. Gear whine from the transmission, pebbles and bits of rubber hitting the inner fenders, the rattles that are inherent in a race car that has no sound deadening, the sound of a big, unrestricted intake, etc.

Once those other sounds are added to the game the wind noise probably won't seem so loud, or at least it won't stand out as much.

[ATHome]

It seems that most of the sound I noticed in replays was caused by tire noise.

But there is still wind noise when the tyres are not touching the ground.
And I think the tire noise is a good bit too loud. Maybe not an the street cars, this seems to be quite right, but for the F1 it's just too loud.

About the wind noise look at my attachment

[ajp71]

That BRM sounds like a NASCAR V8 at the lower RPMs... But yes, LFS needs a lot of work on the external sounds, and especially how the sound reflects across the land and vegetation.

How on earth did you get to that conclusion? Having heard it in real life I can tell you it sounds nothing like a small block and is very very loud, although I have heard an Autsin 7 which was louder :D

[sinbad]

I remembered this video of F1 testing because I was surprised by the wind noise.

http://www.f1blog.org/wp-content/Panis_Testing_V8_Monza_Aug24_05.mpg

Wish the engine sounded like that.

[Honey]

the lfs wind noise (and not the tire noise that doesn't exist in lfs), it's perfectly realistic: when i drive my car at 200 km/h all i can hear is wind noise...and it's pretty huge! i can't even hear the sound of the stereo at full volume! and of course i have the car windows closed, for those who don't believe, just drive at 120 km/h with opened windows...and listen...

so imagine how it must be at 300 km/h inside a F1 car...

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Tire noise does so exist in LFS :)

[Honey]

Tire noise does so exist in LFS :)
really? but apart that there isn't a volume slider like "wind volume", i never hear it!
can you explain me how to verify it in game?:tilt: i cannot hear it

...of course by "tire noise" i intend the rolling noise, not noise caused by bumps etc.

[VALE 46]

I dont know why racing games never have it, but the sound of a car up close and in the distance can be completly different as you can hear with the BRM, grumbly and roaring up close, but smoother and howling in the distance. Obviously it would depend what cars, but the F1 cars would do it, and you should be able to hear the car basically the whole way round the track.

I have only just found this game (only just finished downloading from steam) Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45, but it mentions ... Distance-based sound system dynamically creates the battle ambiance.

I've said it before, but for games that use samples and merge the samples at different rpm, why not have another set of samples (distance sounds) and merge them with the other samples as the distance increases. Is this possible ?

[tristancliffe]

I think some frequences attenuate (is that the right word, I mean lose volume with distance) more than others, hence a BRM on one side of a track sounds different, not just louder, when it screams past you. I'd have thought that frequency dependant attenuation wouldn't be hard to code, although it might be tough to perfect.

[Gunn]

When the car is on the other side of the circuit you are hearing not only the sound from the car itself but also the echo of reverberated sound bouncing back at you off all manner of objects in the surrounding area. This gives a really open but still hollow reverb sound that changes as the car changes position around the track.

[JeffR]

I'm not aware of any open cockpit racer or motorcycle racer that doesn't use earplugs of some type. I always use foam earplugs and a helmet when driving my motorcycle. The earplugs cut out almost all of the wind noise, and you can hear the engine (and other vehicles). When I had the Caterham, the wind noise was also very loud, and earplugs once again greatly reduced wind noise to the point that if driver and passenger wore earplugs, you could hear a normal conversation. The foam earplugs mostly eliminate high frequency noises.

The in car sounds should reflect what a driver hears, including the effects of earplugs, or earplugs should be a sound option.

[Shinanigans]

But what I found really unrealistic is the simple fact that you hear the wind noise from outside in TV cam.
When I was at DTM or F1 you really can't hear anything other than the engine noise, when a car screams past you...

There should be kind of a .cfg that lets you adjust every volume which is heard in game.

When you are sitting in a grandstand watching cars "scream past you" then of course all you are going to hear is engine noise.

When you are outside the car, but following it, then you are going to pick up the wind noise because the "camera" with the microphone attached to it is also fighting through the wind at high speed.

It is very realistic wind noise. Go drive on a freeway at 100mph and stick your head out the window.... now jump in an open wheel F1 car and do it at 220mph and tell me if the wind noise is too loud! :thumb::)

[mantis9]

I'm not aware of any open cockpit racer or motorcycle racer that doesn't use earplugs of some type. I always use foam earplugs and a helmet when driving my motorcycle. The earplugs cut out almost all of the wind noise, and you can hear the engine (and other vehicles). When I had the Caterham, the wind noise was also very loud, and earplugs once again greatly reduced wind noise to the point that if driver and passenger wore earplugs, you could hear a normal conversation. The foam earplugs mostly eliminate high frequency noises.

The in car sounds should reflect what a driver hears, including the effects of earplugs, or earplugs should be a sound option.

Very good point! This should go in the improvement suggestions bit :thumb:

[Smax]

Frequency decay is dependent upon the wavelength of the signal:- the higher the wavelength, the shorter the distance over which it fades to zero, which is why you can always hear Barry's bass bins before what little mid range there is in the crap music he listens to.

It's also the reason why T-Mobile and Orange [1800mhz networks] require twice as many masts for full coverage as O2 and Vodafone [900mhz networks]

[Bob Smith]

And why LW radio transmissions can be picked up near-globally on a clear night. I've listened to radio from Canada in my back garden before.

[AndRand]

no ionosphere there? :scratchch

[DaveWS]

This is sort of relevant to this thread... Just thought I'd tell you that the BF1 car sounds amazing, if you turn up the volume in LFS, and control panel (but down on PC speakers so that the sound is distorted).

[Bob Smith]

I've not listened to that, but audio signals that are loud enough to under clipping usually a) sound really bad and b) can damage your speakers.

[wark]

when i drive my car at 200 km/h all i can hear is wind noise...and it's pretty huge! i can't even hear the sound of the stereo at full volume!

Must surely depend a lot on the car driven and even its gearing--when I've driven at 200 km/h the engine has always been roaring in the upper-registers of 6th gear. But then I've only driven fast in new sports cars with good insulation. :shrug:

[JeffR]

Here's a speed run (gauge view) in a 2006 Z06 Corvette to 190mph, wind noise is barely noticable. Of course in a real race car, the side windows would be down. This was done on a 3 mile runway, and my guess is that it took over 2 miles to reach 190mph.

z06190.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/z06190.wmv)

Now in this case, a souped up Hayabusa running up to 211mph (speedo shows 220mph), the wind noise does get very loud, but you can still hear the louder engine until the rider backs off the throttle.

busa211.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/busa211.wmv)

I haven't found a good quality onboard video of a turbo busa flat out, but here's a flyby at 235mph:

busa235.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/busa235.wmv)

With a tank cam video, you really can't appreciate what 180+mph looks like but here's a good example. The camera dislodged from the mount, so the video is short. The rider takes it's easy until he gets past some dirt on the two lane road, but after that, he opens it up and you can see just how quickly the busa gets up to speed:

busasr.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/busasr.wmv)


As I peviously posted, in a real race vehicle, the driver would be wearing ear plugs and a helmet, or helment with headset that cuts out wind noise so the driver can communicate with the pit.

[bal00]

Here's a speed run (gauge view) in a 2006 Z06 Corvette to 190mph, wind noise is barely noticable. Of course in a real race car, the side windows would be down. This was done on a 3 mile runway, and my guess is that it took over 2 miles to reach 190mph.

z06190.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/z06190.wmv)

My guess would be that they used an external mic somewhere near the exhaust or engine. In reality the wind noise is MUCH louder at these speeds.

[rabidmaddog]

Keep in mind that nearly all of the engine horsepower, aside from some other various friction losses, is being resisted by aerodynamic drag as the car moves through the air. At high speeds the car exerts very high forces against the air and it is quite loud indeed.

:D

[cannonfodder]

Here's a speed run (gauge view) in a 2006 Z06 Corvette to 190mph, wind noise is barely noticable. Of course in a real race car, the side windows would be down. This was done on a 3 mile runway, and my guess is that it took over 2 miles to reach 190mph.

z06190.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/z06190.wmv)

I wouldn't call that barely noticeable. You start to hear wind by 2nd/3rd gear, and by 5th wind and other noises almost overpower the engine compared to the same rpms in 4th.

[JeffR]

z06 at 190mph wind noise barely noticableI wouldn't call that barely noticeable. You start to hear wind by 2nd/3rd gear, and by 5th wind and other noises almost overpower the engine compared to the same rpms in 4th.Ok, but it's a lot less noise than the souped up Busa that ran up to 211mph.

Based on my personal experience with foam ear plugs and a helmet, the wind noise (at least the high frequency component) is almost completely eliminated by the ear plugs.

[JeffR]

Here's another sample, a BMW M3 GTR running a combined Nurburg Ring and Nordschleife. One warmup lap on the Nurburg, then a race lap and a left onto the Nordschleife. There are 2 fast sections early on, and the final straight. The gears and rear end sounds seem to be the dominating sounds on this car:

m3gtrnrd.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/m3gtrnrd.wmv)

[Bob Smith]

Air plugs do work differently, cheaper ones block out way more high frequency noise than they do lower frequencies. Proper ones block all frequencies the same amount (or there about), so you can still hear perfectly clearly, it's just like turning the volume down on the world.

[MWojahn]

I actually like the loud wind noise, i think it adds to the sensation of speed quite well. It gets a bit excessive in the closed cars though, depending on wich car you sit in, for example normal road cars are quite quiet nowadays inside.
The only thing really bad is when you look at the formula cars from the trackside cameras, you hear only windnoise when they are blasting by, wich is really wrong and sorta weird in lfs.

[Electrik Kar]

And what about the "crashing" sound that just breaks your headphones and ears? Probably the most annoying thing in LFS... There are wav files in D:\Live For Speed\data\snd folder and afaik the crashing sound is produced when the tyres touch the ground. I've put the ScrapeHard.wav and ScrapeSoft.wav sounds to 0% volume but I couldn't get rid of the sound.

Funny, I really like those sounds. And because I crash a lot, I get to hear them often! lol

Especially when you tip 90degrees and scrape on down the road- that's my favourite!!! :)

[ajp71]

Of course in a real race car, the side windows would be down.

This is a bizzare habbit only usually found in the US, the rest of the world always keep the windows up, I don't know what gain people expect to get from having the windows down, weight? or (very marginal) safety grounds? Whatever it is surely the aerodynamic penalty cannot be worth it.


As I peviously posted, in a real race vehicle, the driver would be wearing ear plugs

From my experience the majority of club racers do not wear ear plugs.

[Dumpy]

This is a bizzare habbit only usually found in the US, the rest of the world always keep the windows up, I don't know what gain people expect to get from having the windows down, weight? or (very marginal) safety grounds? Whatever it is surely the aerodynamic penalty cannot be worth it.

I was wondering about this too... It does seem like it would just create drag? Also, in my experience, it is pretty annoying having the windows down going fast - but what do I know? ^.^

[ajp71]

I think wind noise blocking out the engine in single seaters is unrealistic. My Dad says that in his car he does get a good amount of wind noise at speed but it never comes close to drowning out the engine noise. Remember this is a 1600 production based engine (CVH) with a racing exhaust, it's not very loud by racing car standards.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

a good amount of wind noise at speed but it never comes close to drowning out the wind noise.

:really: That must be serious wind noise to drown itself out...



:razz:

[Viper93]

:really: That must be serious wind noise to drown itself out...



:razz:

:pillepall:really::scratchch

Could have it been that he meant that the engine noise wasn't drowned out by wind noise? I know in my car if I have my windows rolled down at high speed I cannot hear myself think much less hear engine sounds, but my car is also factory, race cars I donno.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

LOL, Chris I know I was being a "wise guy"

[ajp71]

:really: That must be serious wind noise to drown itself out...


LOL :doh:

[Viper93]

LOL I know you were =) was clarifying "just incase" someone didn't understand =)

[JeffR]

Of course in a real race car, the side windows would be downThis is a bizzare habbit only usually found in the US, the rest of the world always keep the windows up.Let me clarify, it depends on the real race car. It's to prevent glass from getting all over the driver in case of a crash. In Nascar, there is no glass in the side windows. However, Lemans racing cars have fully enclosed cockpits, so it's up to the type of racing involved.

For club racers, if track rules don't mandate windows down, then the drivers can choose. When Motor Trend tested the Z06 at Laguna Seca, the windows were up and the AC on.

From my experience the majority of club racers do not wear ear plugs.Probably true, but it depends on how loud the cars are, or how fast the cars go if they are open cockpit cars like a Radical, Caterham, or any of the formula type cars. In these cases, most of the drivers will wear ear plugs. Almost all of the motorcyle racers use ear plugs.

[Cue-Ball]

Let me clarify, it depends on the real race car. It's to prevent glass from getting all over the driver in case of a crash. In Nascar, there is no glass in the side windows.Not true. It has nothing to do with glass. NASCAR vehicles have no window glass because the roll cage fully encloses the door area and the only way in and out of the car is through the window hole. This is also true for many other forms of stock car and circle track racing other than NASCAR. A safety net is put in place of the window to keep the drivers arms in the car during an accident, and to prevent debris from going into the cockpit. A safety net is quick and simple to remove when the driver needs to get out. In the event of an accident a window would trap the driver in the car and keep safety crews out, which is obviously not what you want.

Cars which have doors that open and close can obviously retain their windows.

[wark]

The original noise complained of must be tire noise. Drive 200 mph on the grass and it goes away completely. It gets louder under high Gs too.

In this case it's not unrealistic to hear it as a car drives by you... stand next to a freeway and that's all you'll hear. It does however sound like the cars in LFS are driving on concrete rather than black-top...

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Thanks for pointing that out, noone seems to listen when I do!

IIRC, someone even told me there isn't tire noise in LFS :pillepall

It is tire noise, and it is realistic. And it's separate from the also realistic wind noise.

:)