S1 license is worthless for me and new players! :-( [Archive]

Robbson

1st May 2006, 21:25

Dear LFS community,

I bought the S1 license some month before the release of the first S2 alpha version in 2005. The unexpected early S2 alpha release was a shock for me because I was good trained and prepared for more S1 online races. But in the S2 demo, I don't get my "I love it" feeling from the "old" S1 times back... There are a lot of improvements but some terrible changes (like the all time reverbed engine sound), too.

Ok, this is one thing... but another thing bothers me at all: I can't play my licensed S1 content on a S2 server... the whole old-established community moved to the new version... and of course, almost no one is opening a S1 license compatible server again. So I'm stucked to the S1/S2 demo to find someone to play with... Great! My S1 license is worthless... I only paid it for offline driving.

Of course, I know that developing the game and provide the servers costs money... But compared to the old-established community which is playing S1 since years for 18 Euro, I paid the same price and be only allowed to play it some month before S2 Alpha release... and that's it... Hey, I bought it for online playing and not for offline content!

So, now I'm forced to upgrade... but I don't have the time to play so much... At the moment it would be far enough to play all the S1 contents with S2 players when they are driving the old tracks on S2 servers (Because no one of the S2 players is switching back to the old content willingly). They could choose the new cars... I drive the old... that's ok for me. But no, I'm "banned" from the community till I upgrade to S2. :pillepall

And the current solution is not fair related to all the new players/buyers, too. They have to pay the whole price of 36 Euro to use S2 with other players online... they also pay S1 for some old fashioned content which they never had used before... they don't used any servers in the past... they don't needed any support in the past... but they pay the same price like other users years before.

And this issue is continuing... if S3 will be released in about 2 years (or later), new buyers probably have to pay 18+18+18 Euro... Great policy! They can get commercial retail games for the same price which have far more content and are dedicated to realistic racing simulations, too (like GTR, rFactor, etc.).

Currently I've found the best solution for my issue:
Only playing the S2 demo for free with other all time demo players which never payed something for the LFS developers and some of them will never pay anything in the future.
So don't "wait" for my upgrade to the S2 license in the next future... because I don't want to get tricked again!

It's not easy for me to write something like this related to my most favorite racing game... but these are the facts I'm confronted with.

Sincerely,
Ex-Driver Robbson.

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 21:38

That's an intersting point actually.

(For the record it's 12+12+12, not 18..... S2 is 24.)

I do agree that you should be able to access S1 Content only on S2 equipped servers... IE you can join any race on S1 Tracks, but only drive S1 cars...

Not sure how that would work, but it seems like it could be done somewhat easily, not that I have any idea if that's true or not.... It just doesn't seem overly comlplex.

RevMonkey

1st May 2006, 21:39

well if you look, the s1 licenses aren't even sold anymore... just striaght to s2 for the 24lbs. so bascially, you've already paid half the price for the full licesne, it's like an investment. just pay the other 12 lbs. and you're back in the game. s3 won't be coming out for ages anyways...

Cue-Ball

1st May 2006, 21:42

So, you have an old piece of software that's not compatible with the newest, latest and greatest release? Wow. Sounds like every other software product I've ever purchased. :really:

I think I'm going to complain to EA. I bought Battlefield 1942 but now nobody plays it anymore as they've all moved on to Battlefield 2. That sucks! I want my money back!

The bottom line is that you're not FORCED to upgrade as you say. You can either get S2 and play, or you can keep S1 and not play. The choice is yours. If you like LFS at all then you should pay to upgrade to S2 and be done with it. Just be thankful that S2 isn't considered a "full product" like most other games or you'd be paying full price!

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 21:42

Yeah, but no matter how you look at it - he's still got something that's a little bit useless considering he can't use what he paid for online anymore. :shrug:

People still play the old Counterstrike from ages ago (non-source version) and that's MUCH older than S1.

sil3ntwar

1st May 2006, 21:43

I remember this being discussed before and i think i can tell yah that its not going to happen.

I do think it is a good idea to let S1 users play S1 content on S2 servers.

And cue-ball what you said about BF is a completely different situation to LFS.

Cue-Ball

1st May 2006, 21:44

Yeah, but no matter how you look at it - he's still got something that's a little bit useless considering he can't use what he paid for online anymore. :shrug:Sure he can. Everything that he paid for still works just as it did when he bought it. Just because nobody else plays S1 anymore doesn't mean the software suddenly doesn't work. It only means that people have moved on to something newer and more feature-filled.

Robbson

1st May 2006, 21:47

That's an intersting point actually.
(For the record it's 12+12+12, not 18..... S2 is 24.)

I've used my currency in Germany and this is EUR(O).

I do agree that you should be able to access S1 Content only on S2 equipped servers... IE you can join any race on S1 Tracks, but only drive S1 cars...

Yes, I also think so... but it is not working... I can only play on S1 servers. Perhaps this is a bug because most players are S2 customers now but I want to play a little bit and upgrade to new tracks and cars later when I have more time. I still have a lot of work with all the S1 stuff. :)

Not sure how that would work, but it seems like it could be done somewhat easily, not that I have any idea if that's true or not.... It just doesn't seem overly comlplex.
So I'm still believing that this issue is for forcing players to buy S2....

Robbson.

skiingman

1st May 2006, 21:49

Wow.

You are one cheap guy.

I don't even want to think of how you explain other things in life to yourself.

Cue-Ball

1st May 2006, 21:50

So I'm still believing that this issue is for forcing players to buy S2.... Again, nobody is forcing you to do anything. Your copy of LFS (S1) still does everything that it did when you bought it. No functionality has been removed and, in fact, functionality has been added since you get the new physics and graphics updates that the S2 users get.

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 21:51

Sure he can. Everything that he paid for still works just as it did when he bought it. Just because nobody else plays S1 anymore doesn't mean the software suddenly doesn't work. It only means that people have moved on to something newer and more feature-filled.

yeah, but... no.

The point is there is still the same content that exists in S2, and everything else is the same save for the content. Why should he be restricted when he's got the same program - which he did pay for - just not the same content??? All the while Demo users who paid nothing race happily away for free. Somethings amiss there.

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 21:54

Wow.

You are one cheap guy.

I don't even want to think of how you explain other things in life to yourself.

LOL

Yeah, fine, he's cheap (LFS is not expensive) but he still has a valid point in terms of semantics.

stay

1st May 2006, 21:55

If S1 licenses are no longer being sold and their online worth/usability is now pretty low, what about offering an upgrade to S2 at a reduced rate of perhaps £6-8 ?

Most S1 registered people would have already upgraded to S2 if they had any intention of doing so, and a lot of those people still on S1 have quite possibly forgotten about the game, but a email dropping into their inbox offering a cheap upgrade to S2 might just be enough to temp them back, no ? :scratchch

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 21:56

Sure he can. Everything that he paid for still works just as it did when he bought it. Just because nobody else plays S1 anymore doesn't mean the software suddenly doesn't work. It only means that people have moved on to something newer and more feature-filled.

S1 and S2 are not exclusive, one includes the other so it should work both ways shouldn't it? In fact, many people play the S1 content everyday still - why shouldn't he be allowed to just because it's "all" that he paid for?

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 21:57

Cue-Ball

1st May 2006, 21:58

yeah, but... no.

The point is there is still the same content that exists in S2, and everything else is the same save for the content. No, the point is that he doesn't have S2 and shouldn't expect access to S2 servers unless he pays to upgrade.

Why should he be restricted when he's got the same program - which he did pay for - just not the same content??? For the same reason that people who own Counter-Strike can't play with people who own Counter-Strike Source. They are two different products. Why would the devs want to spend time making S1 work on S2 servers? S1 is an old product that they no longer sell and there's plenty to do on S2. No company in their right mind is going to spend time and resources on an old product when 95% of their users and revenue have moved on to the newer product.

All the while Demo users who paid nothing race happily away for free. Somethings amiss there.He can feel free to join the demo racers then. He has access to that content and by your own admission they're quite happy with it.

The bottom line is that he's using an old software version and there's a much newer product out. He's got what he paid for, and no less. Everything that he could do before he can do now. The fact that everyone else has moved on to greener pastures is just a fact of life that S1 users must face. Upgrade or get left behind. Simple as that.

Robbson

1st May 2006, 21:58

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 22:04

No, the point is that he doesn't have S2 and shouldn't expect access to S2 servers unless he pays to upgrade.

....

The problem is, technically it's the SAME program. He doesn't have the S1 Physics, or the S1 Sound and whatnot. That's where your analogy is flawed, they are not separate programs. Every other aspect of his S1 license is just like ours, it's only the content that is different, thus it's nothing like CS vs CS:S, those are infact totally different pieces of software. We're only talking cars/tracks here, if it helps look at it this way: he's running S2 with an S1 license.

Cue-Ball

1st May 2006, 22:08

@Cue-Ball

I always read your argument from other players in the German community. But you've forgotten one very important point: S1 gets older... but it doesn't get cheaper like almost all the other games out there.

So if I buy Grand Prix 3 now for 2 Euro/Dollars or whatever, of course I can't demand any big user community today. :tilt:

I think, the most similar license system is the one of Guild Wars. So you buy the game for 39 Euro... and can play the full online content... and you can still play it because it's offered for 39 Euro and no Cent less.
If Guild Wars continues (the new game is called GW Factions) you can still buy the old game (with same price) and play it with a lot of players online because it's combined with the new game.

Robbson.But you didn't buy S1 today. You bought it when it was still the latest and greatest. If you had bought it yesterday (which you can't, because it's no longer sold) then I'd see your point. But since you bought it when it was still the current release your argument holds no water. Just because "Guild Wars" still has a lot of players means nothing. For every old game you name that still has a large community I can name 10 that do not.

If I buy Photoshop today and next week the new version comes out, I will still have gotten what I paid for, just as you have.

Cue-Ball

1st May 2006, 22:12

if it helps look at it this way: he's running S2 with an S1 license.He's got an S1 license. You said it, not me. While it would be nice if he could connect to S2 servers, that's not what he paid for. He paid for the S1 content and that's what he's got.

What happens when the S2 server he's connected to changes to a track/car that he doesn't have access to? How would S1 handle that since it was never coded to have those items? The devs would have to spend a considerable amount of time addressing problems like these to cater to a very few people who are too "thrifty" to buy S2. Why should they do that? That's a LOT of extra work with no benefit to them or to the community.

tristancliffe

1st May 2006, 22:12

I would say that in an ideal world S1 content should be playable on S2 servers. But we don't live in an ideal world. I've paid £24 for LFS (£36 actually), and it's lasted me 3 years. So it's cost me £8 per year, £0.66 per month and just over £0.02 per day - thats pretty good value. If S3 comes out in 18 months my daily cost on the day of release will be the same - £0.02 per day.

LFS is NOT expensive. Compare LFS to the cost of a powerful enough computer in ANY country, and LFS remains small change, so no one should EVER be allowed to critisise it for being expensive. If they claim it's too much then how come they can afford a PC good enough to run the demo.

Get over it mate, buy S2, and enjoy it. I don't know what you're referring to about the other sims you mentioned - GTR will be replaced in a few months with GTR1.5, GTL will be replaced soon afterwards, rFactor2 will doubtless come out in a year or two. And each of these will cost about £30 on average - nearly three times the cost of S3. So don't bicker about how hard done by, because you're not, you're just being tight.

Robbson

1st May 2006, 22:15

@Cue-Ball

Because you have the content of S1 in S2 (I can activate my account in the S2 release), you can't compare it with any other game out there where a new game is a completely different installation/account.

And for what you have paid the S1 license in the past? I will tell you: For online driving and that is the thing what LFS is all about!!
I don't want to pay for offline content only... One track would be enough, if I could race with the non-demo community and logging my stats... but even that's not possible.

And think about this again:
You paid 18 Euro or 12 Pounds or what ever... played LFS online for about 3 years... and I paid the same price (I don't got any special offer for an aged product!) but can only drive 3 months online... Do you get my point? That's not fair to new / later users... and they will think about moving to other racing games and this should be prevented at all!

Robbson.

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 22:17

He's got an S1 license. You said it, not me. While it would be nice if he could connect to S2 servers, that's not what he paid for. He paid for the S1 content and that's what he's got.

Right, it just would be good if he could use the content he paid for online, which really means only displaying servers with tracks he has access too, since his car restriction is limited on his own PC.

What happens when the S2 server he's connected to changes to a track/car that he doesn't have access to? How would S1 handle that since it was never coded to have those items? The devs would have to spend a considerable amount of time addressing problems like these to cater to a very few people who are too "thrifty" to buy S2. Why should they do that? That's a LOT of extra work with no benefit to them or to the community.

If the S2 server changed to a different track, he would just get booted, OR he would be forced to spectate because of his license status, which would be better because it would entice him to buy the extra content! S1 is coded to have those items, because it's all the same program. It's only access that is restriced via the license.

But you're right - it MAY be a lot of work (it might not) and it probably isn't worth it at this point, but from a consumer perspective it's silly I think.

[Viking]

1st May 2006, 22:19

I agree that a S1 licensed player should be able to play S1 cars on S1 tracks. But only that. Allthough you probably feel cheated, I can't really sympatize with you. If you bought it only a month or two before S2's release, then you really can't blame anyway. Once the S2 demo was out (I reckon you mean that you bought S1 license before the first full S2 alpha version was released) people pretty much moved over to that, right? Not to be rude, but to me it doesn't make sense to buy the older game when the next one is right around the corner, and available for free play (demo) with the bigger part of the community.

But as said, the solution is easy. You've already bought half of it, haven't you? So just pay the remaining half and you'll have S2 :) It's the most bang-for-buck game out there. I would gladly pay $10 or $20 more for the game.

tristancliffe

1st May 2006, 22:20

You invested in LFS knowing full well that it would come in stages. It was logical that S2 would be an entirely different program (though logic was disproved, so you ended up with more than you paid for in terms of content).

With hindsight it's easy to say you were shortchanged, but before you clicked 'Buy' you knew LFS would be updated.

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 22:21

@Tristan

Well said.

EDIT (aimed at first post)

EDIT2:
People, don't get me wrong - LFS IS very cheap for what it is and will be, infact I would pay a lot more for it than they're charging any day of the week. And I also think Robbson SHOULD buy S2, but if you look at it purely from a consumer (who is not a regular part of this community, and may not yet fully understand LFS in terms of development and what it's all about) standpoint then it makes sense that he (as you said Tristan: in an IDEAL world) should've been able to run his licensed content on any server that offers it (IE S1 or S2 licensed servers).

Hopefully he'll just buy it to shut us all up :razz:

Cue-Ball

1st May 2006, 22:26

online driving[/B] and that is the thing what LFS is all about!! You CAN play online. Go ahead. Start a server right now. I'll wait.....

Did that work? Could you start a server? Of course you could! The software works now exactly as it did when you bought it. The only difference is that now, nobody else is playing what you've got. Sucks to be you.
And think about this again:
You paid 18 Euro or 12 Pounds or what ever... played LFS online for about 3 years... and I paid the same price (I don't got any special offer for an aged product!) but can only drive 3 months online... Do you get my point? So, people who buy the game when it first comes out should pay full price, and people who wait should get a discount purely because they waited? So, I buy now for 24 pounds and you buy three months from now for 20 pounds? Yes, that sounds VERY fair to me. :pillepall

That's not fair to new / later users... and they will think about moving to other racing games and this should be prevented at all! Yes. You're quite right. Just look at all the people who've defected from Live for Speed to other sims since S2 came out. I mean, practically nobody plays now that S2 is out. Nobody wanted to pay the 12 pounds to upgrade, so they all went out and bought GTR (for 30 pounds) instead! :rolleyes:

Robbson

1st May 2006, 22:34

Robbson

1st May 2006, 22:39

If the S2 server changed to a different track, he would just get booted, OR he would be forced to spectate because of his license status, which would be better because it would entice him to buy the extra content! S1 is coded to have those items, because it's all the same program. It's only access that is restriced via the license.

FULL ACK!!

But you're right - it MAY be a lot of work (it might not) and it probably isn't worth it at this point, but from a consumer perspective it's silly I think.

So they could offer me and other later players an upgrade discount. For this little time I have left for playing LFS in future, I don't want pay 18 Euro. A used but full usable GTR game/account is much cheaper now and there I can change my "world name"... And I also like the cool GTR's engine sound. :D

Robbson.

Cue-Ball

1st May 2006, 22:45

The example with photoshop application is also nonsense!
If a new release of a application in near future is known, new customers to the older version normally get a reduced upgrade price to the later version or the upgrade is for free! That's what I call customer support and most applications companies do offers like this today.You DO get a reduced price! You only have to pay 12 pounds, not the full 24! With any other product you'd have to pay the FULL price, not just the difference.

@tristancliffe
Please don't compare the price thing of LFS with full price games like GTR!
In GTR you have so much content... Just what content is it that you get with GTR and not LFS? The last time I checked GTR only had GTR cars. No road cars, no roadsters, etc.

and in LFS you have to wait years for some new car physics, 2 more tracks and some damage model... that's it.And when is the last time you saw a patch for any Simbin game? When is the last time you saw one of their devs come on the forum and directly answer a question from one of their customers?

So don't call it cheap... it's a lot of money for some small content... 12 pounds is NOT a lot of money. Especially not for someone who obviously can afford a computer, a network connection, etc. You've gotta pay to play. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

That's because the developer group is so small and it seems that they don't like contributions (like tracks) from the community. When you buy S2 (full retail games are not too much higher priced) you get only a small game... of course a nice one... but small content and old fashioned graphics, etc. So it should not be compared to other BIG commercial games on the market.again, you talk about small content. Compare S2 (priced at 24 pounds) to any other racing game on the market. rFactor is more expensive and has FEWER tracks and cars. netKar PRO is more expensive and has only three cars and four tracks. So, where are these superior games you keep talking about?

AGAIN: I (want) pay for driving with the community and not for the content! Then pay the measley 12 pounds for S2 and quit your bitching already! :thumb:

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 22:54

FULL ACK!!

What?

So they could offer me and other later players an upgrade discount. For this little time I have left for playing LFS in future, I don't want pay 18 Euro. A used but full usable GTR game/account is much cheaper now and there I can change my "world name"... And I also like the cool GTR's engine sound. :D
Robbson.

Discounting your upgrade is not fair to all the others who paid the 12 pounds.

Indeed, I DO agree that you should be able to access S1 Content on S2 Servers. However, you can't and we're not going to make it happen. 12 pounds isn't very much, seriously like everyone is already telling you. If you like things better about GTR etc, then get it and play it. Otherwise cough up the wallet and get playing on S2 Servers.

Speaking about these other games shows me that you might not understand LFS yet....

Cue-Ball already covered all the other points very well, so I'll leave it at that.

keiran

1st May 2006, 22:55

Robbson please don't take offense to my post but your talking b*llsh*t :pillepall GTR is a perfect example of all the other racing games on the market. They whack out a v1.0 that doesn't work properly and don't bother to fix it but offer you a v2.0, both costing £30 = £60 in total.

LFS is constantly developing and you should count yourself lucky that you can even try the new physics as LFS is the only game which I know that gives its user so much for their money. Are Simbin going to let you use your GTR license to try GTR2, nope!

Don't even go there with the content either, LFS has something like 21 cars and god knows how many tracks. I'm sure its over 30combos at least! All the cars and tracks are different so you have different characteristics of cars to try out. Ranging from a little mini type car to a full blown F1 car. Personally I can't think of another game offering that sort of range of cars.

My personal opionion on this is you're just trying to find sympathy. All I can say count yourself lucky that the devs left the option for you to use the latest software with your old content, not many (if any) game devs or software devs do that.

Keiran

tristancliffe

1st May 2006, 22:56

Just what content is it that you get with GTR and not LFS? The last time I checked GTR only had GTR cars. No road cars, no roadsters, etc.No physics, No online, No fun...

Ball Bearing Turbo

1st May 2006, 22:58

No support, No interaction, No updates...

andy_bonjon

1st May 2006, 23:07

AGAIN: I (want) pay for driving with the community and not for the content!

Robbson.

Then unfortunately you have missunderstood what the licence system is all about :shrug: and that is no one elses fault but your own

If you don't want the content you can still drive online for FREE (granted it is restricted but there is still some fun to be had in the demo) It's a shame you paid for S1 just before S2 came out but unfortunately thats life.... Remeber also that we are not at version 1.0 yet so its not a complete product and so i don't think any other arguments giving examples of discounts for *favouritegame*v1 when *favouritegame*v2 is released are valid.... this is still one game and one game only

My advice would be go and play the demo for a while if your not happy with the 18€, find some clean racers there (there are some believe it or not!! :D ) and hopefully you'll have some fun and realise that an extra 18€ is really not that big a deal... Good Luck! :thumb:

Robbson

1st May 2006, 23:13

You DO get a reduced price! You only have to pay 12 pounds, not the full 24! With any other product you'd have to pay the FULL price, not just the difference.

I don't get any discount... because 12+12 pounds is the same like 24 pounds... and from the first 12 pounds I don't get so much like you got in your LFS history. Time goes by... things getting older... but LFS still costs the same.

Just what content is it that you get with GTR and not LFS? The last time I checked GTR only had GTR cars. No road cars, no roadsters, etc.

You can get all these cars by user community packs in GTR. But I don't need all this silly stuff... Give me a car like everyone has and drive it to it's physical limits against others... that's racing in LFS.

And when is the last time you saw a patch for any Simbin game? When is the last time you saw one of their devs come on the forum and directly answer a question from one of their customers?

That's easy to answer: Their games are complete and they don't have stages like in LFS. So you have a whole bunch of tracks in GTR and 50 cars, a lot of tools, great physics, damage system, tire wearing, etc... There is no need for additional patches when all is working fine...

12 pounds is NOT a lot of money. Especially not for someone who obviously can afford a computer, a network connection, etc. You've gotta pay to play. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Of course it's a lot when I only want to play with other users the old S1 content... because I don't have the time to train my driving skills for complete new tracks and cars... paying 12 pounds for switching to online play with more than 2 people IS indeed too much.

That's difficult to explain to someone who only live in the LFS-world and spend so much time with the game... :thumb:

again, you talk about small content. Compare S2 (priced at 24 pounds) to any other racing game on the market.
rFactor is more expensive and has FEWER tracks and cars. netKar PRO is more expensive and has only three cars and four tracks. So, where are these superior games you keep talking about?

When a new PC game is released, you pay something about 39-44 Euro in Germany... The S2 license (for a new customer) costs 36 Euro... so you see that's very similar. And don't forget, you get a full printed manual and other items in a box rather than a voucher key only... Of course, you can also order these things on the German LFS page but then you pay more then 55 Euro...
So: GTR2 would be a great game with similar price range... but far more advanced content than LFS will ever have.

Robbson.

blowthru67mm

1st May 2006, 23:14

Anyone from america, anyway how much is s2 in american dollars:shrug:

Vykos69

1st May 2006, 23:16

And this issue is continuing... if S3 will be released in about 2 years (or later), new buyers probably have to pay 18+18+18 Euro... Great policy! They can get commercial retail games for the same price which have far more content and are dedicated to realistic racing simulations, too (like GTR, rFactor, etc.).
OK, I just cutted out the other trolling, that you also started in german forum, and make it simple:

Just for the record of speculation: With S3 you get an Online Racing Sim with prolly 30+ clients on a server, LFSTV, about 1600 car/track combinations from low powered UF1 to formula1, from bike to trucks. With tracks from rallye to rallyecross, from autocross to Formula1 tracks, ovals etc. An uptodate DX9 engine with best texture work you can get.

And you want to tell me, that 54 Euros will be too much? How much did you pay for a single series racing sim called GTR, which didnt ran smoothly? New price 55 euros... or an even less equipped game like rfactor? Did those game work well? Ah, right, you gonna buy GTR2 for another 50 euros this year, for 3 new cars, a "brand new" gfx and physics engine and a season 2 years ago. Wow, LFS is expensive....

Ah, did I start about the planned online features of racemore? Costs of iracing? Ah, sry...

To put it straight: 36,- Euros for the quality you get atm is probably the best price/quality ratio out on the sim-market.

Robbson

1st May 2006, 23:17

@Ball Bearing Turbo

FULL ACK= Full acknowledge! Online forums are new to you, isn't it? :D

BBO@BSR

1st May 2006, 23:22

And think about this again:
.. and I paid the same price (I don't got any special offer for an aged product!) but can only drive 3 months online... Do you get my point? That's not fair to new / later users... and they will think about moving to other racing games and this should be prevented at all!

Robbson.
:scratchch the release date of S2 alpha was:
sat, Jun. 25th, 2005 20:00

and your Join Date shows Apr 2004

So you could play S1 full for almost 14 month. That's a long time in games business if you ask me.

I bought one day the game ONI which was really nice. I only played it through all levels once (think I needed about a week) and now I wanted to play it again but it doesn't run on my 64bit machine and the developers didn't make any patches. To bad I think I paid 40 Euros for it and now its worthless. But hey that's life. :shrug:

I also bought a 19" CRT monitor for almost 600 Euros. If I want to sell it now I think I will get around 110 Euros on Ebay because of TFT's. That's called progress.

Someone wrote here something really good:

"Just because nobody else plays S1 anymore doesn't mean the software suddenly doesn't work. It only means that people have moved on to something newer and more feature-filled."

And that's it.

filur

1st May 2006, 23:22

Why should the devs put in extra effort for more support to someone who doesn't support the devs?

tristancliffe

1st May 2006, 23:23

No, but silly abbreviations when you just type properly are ;)

Robbson

1st May 2006, 23:48

OK, I just cutted out the other trolling, that you also started in german forum, and make it simple:

Yes, because in the German forum I nearly found some stubborn persons only, who don't like to discuss an issue but want to blame other users with lower accolade. Here I've found some serious people with interesting arguments and I see you also can do it...

Just for the record of speculation: With S3 you get an Online Racing Sim with prolly 30+ clients on a server, LFSTV, about 1600 car/track combinations from low powered UF1 to formula1, from bike to trucks. With tracks from rallye to rallyecross, from autocross to Formula1 tracks, ovals etc. An uptodate DX9 engine with best texture work you can get.

Cool, this sounds like the product description of "Need For Speed - Underground". There you have only 6 city tracks... and they splitted it to longer and shorter versions and also let you drive it the other direction so you have 36 "tracks" at all... But your idea with the cars&tracks combination is even more brilliant: 1600 cars/tracks combinations... :trampolin
Do you work in the marketing sector? Your "trick the customer" methods sound like this.

And you want to tell me, that 54 Euros will be too much? How much did you pay for a single series racing sim called GTR, which didnt ran smoothly? New price 55 euros... or an even less equipped game like rfactor? Did those game work well? Ah, right, you gonna buy GTR2 for another 50 euros this year, for 3 new cars, a "brand new" gfx and physics engine and a season 2 years ago. Wow, LFS is expensive....

Their games are nearly perfect and getting better and better... but I know a lot of people in the LFS community so I don't really want to switch and I don't want to train again a new game... not again 4000 laps...
Ok, in LFS you have to be patient because you are the paying life long beta tester... The sofware companies'es dream at all. :)

To put it straight: 36,- Euros for the quality you get atm is probably the best price/quality ratio out on the sim-market.

I never said that LFS is a poor quality game... I played it a lot (offline) and be (somewhat) addicted to it. But I didn't start all the comparisons to other games like GTR.

And there are a lot of funny people here which dream in their own world.... "Never seen patches for GTR" and something like this. That's paranoid. There are many patches up to version 1.5 out yet... sometimes with more tracks and cars... 24h le mans races... that's also great content... But LFS fanboys like to ignore that other companies offer something great, too.

Robbson.

skiingman

1st May 2006, 23:51

All of this over 12 pounds?

Robbson, I've earned more than that sitting here reading forums in the time you've taken to write these silly posts.

WTF is anyone feeding this troll for? I got my money's worth from my S1 license in the first night I owned it. I didn't buy it as early as many others did. I could have bought it a single day before S2 was released and not felt even slightly bad about ponying up another 12 pounds.

It costs me more to go to a movie with my girlfriend than it costs to buy a S1 license. If I buy dinner as well, I've then covered the cost of the S1, S2, and S3 licenses.

Get a job pal.

I remember when I used to need to plan ahead to spend 15 dollars on the next chapter in an Apogee game. That was nearly fifteen years ago, and I wasn't quite old enough to mow lawns...

Hankstar

1st May 2006, 23:54

Robbson: "FULL ACK"? I've been lurking about in online forums since '01 and that's the first time I've seen anyone say (shout) that...may not be as common as you think :)

As for your problem, I can sort of understand it but you can't expect special treatment. Going by your join date you had ample time to play S1 and ample time to figure out that S2 would be a new package with new features that would cost the same as S1 (and not more, as one may expect from a new improved product). AFAIK this is the first time this has come up as a problem for anyone.
If you, as you said, only want to play S1 content then I'm afraid you're not going to see many full servers. A fact of life I'm afraid.

tristancliffe

1st May 2006, 23:54

Why is 1600 combinations such a dream? Can you guess how many we have now (it's simple maths, and I'm not expecting a perfect answer).

And we are not beta testers in the usual sense - we have just been allowed to play the sim whilst it's being developed, a small but important difference. And I have to agree that ISI games are getting better. In a couple of years they'll be nearly as good at GT4 ;) But you shouldn't really drag other driving games (or sims) into this discussion as it will go downhill very very quickly - best stick to LFS:

You bought it.
You played it.
It was updated.
You couldn't be bothered to update with it
Now you can't play online because everyone else uses a different version.
You think LFS should give you a discount even though they didn't decieve you.
You moan on Forum(s)
You play GTR instead because it's 'better'.
The End.

Robbson

1st May 2006, 23:59

:scratchch the release date of S2 alpha was:
sat, Jun. 25th, 2005 20:00

and your Join Date shows Apr 2004

So you could play S1 full for almost 14 month. That's a long time in games business if you ask me.

Because all your other "arguments" are troll-like I'm going to answer only to this issue. My joining time in the LFS community has nothing to do with my S1 license which I bought in spring or summer 2005. You have recognized that there are also demo players in this forum, do you?

And no, I didn't play the demo from 2004 to 2005 so much because there is still a real life where I have to do some upgrades, too. :) :nod:

Robbson.

Hankstar

2nd May 2006, 00:03

Well, reading that it seems you chose not to play for all that time even though you had the opportunity. So in effect there is noone to blame but yourself for the situation you now find yourself in :shrug:

Vykos69

2nd May 2006, 00:04

Yes, because in the German forum I nearly found some stubborn persons only, who don't like to discuss an issue but want to blame other users with lower accolade. Here I've found some serious people with interesting arguments and I see you also can do it...OK, maybe you start thinking who's stubborn...
Cool, this sounds like the product description of "Need For Speed - Underground". There you have only 6 city tracks... and they splitted it to longer and shorter versions and also let you drive it the other direction so you have 36 "tracks" at all... But your idea with the cars&tracks combination is even more brilliant: 1600 cars/tracks combinations... :trampolin
Do you work in the marketing sector? Your "trick the customer" methods sound like this.OK, maybe I should put it an other way: How much different racing does LFS offer you and which other games would you have to buy, to get the same? GTR for GTR cars, PlayStation2 + F1 game for BMW Sauber, CRC for Rallyecross. And those are only the close to sim-games. Ther is actually no sim out there that simulates streetcars.Their games are nearly perfect and getting better and better... nearly perfect? And hope dies last...
I never said that LFS is a poor quality game... I played it a lot (offline) and be (somewhat) addicted to it. But I didn't start all the comparisons to other games like GTR.

And there are a lot of funny people here which dream in their own world.... "Never seen patches for GTR" and something like this. That's paranoid. There are many patches up to version 1.5 out yet... sometimes with more tracks and cars... 24h le mans races... that's also great content... But LFS fanboys like to ignore that other companies offer something great, too.
No, wrong. More people than you might think see, buy and play the other games. Even like _some_ of the content. Most complete is LFS and stays LFS. Besides that: saying the 24hrs of Spa for GTR are great content is one of the best jokes ever. Hey, I stopped in Masters of Endurance 24hours of Aston several times for a couple of minutes to change the scenery. And besides that: I dont like companies that promise me something (driver-swaps LIKE IN THE REAL FIA GT were promised for GTR from the beginning.) and dont fulfill their promises.

The point you make about the licensing is simple wrong: You get a great game for 36,- Euros, with a lot of content. More racing than any other sim can give you atm for that price. If you whine about S1 content, move on. NFS Undergroundplayers moved on to UG2 then to MW etc. etc.

"The King is dead, long live the King!"

Robbson

2nd May 2006, 00:06

All of this over 12 pounds?
Robbson, I've earned more than that sitting here reading forums in the time you've taken to write these silly posts.

I hope you don't forget to think while you work. In Germany I it's late evening now and I spend my spare time to write something in this forum. So you can see, there's not so much money you can earn at this time except rents or something like that. :)

But discussion about money is senseless... and "want a job" is still another thing than "get a job", Mr. Workaholic.

Robbson.

Vykos69

2nd May 2006, 00:11

I hope you don't forget to think while you work. In Germany I it's late evening now and I spend my spare time to write something in this forum. So you can see, there's not so much money you can earn at this time except rents or something like that. :)

But discussion about money is senseless... and "want a job" is still another thing than "get a job", Mr. Workaholic.

Robbson.At the 24/7 gasstation around the corner they always look for workers. 3hours and you have your 18,- Euros for your upgrade...

Robbson

2nd May 2006, 00:13

Robbson: "FULL ACK"? I've been lurking about in online forums since '01 and that's the first time I've seen anyone say (shout) that...may not be as common as you think :)

I also never used this before... but read it so often... Now it was time to use it... and no one knows it... :smileypul

Hankstar

2nd May 2006, 00:17

Maybe noone knows it because ... it's LAME :D
Now go buy your license, there's a good chap. We'll settle this on the track :up:

Robbson

2nd May 2006, 00:24

At the 24/7 gasstation around the corner they always look for workers. 3hours and you have your 18,- Euros for your upgrade...

**LOL**
But when I get this job, I will never finish my diploma. :schwitz:

You know this discussion is not about money only... it's about some principles I don't understand... and it's related to my S1 license which is only for offline content suitable... The "upgrade discount" was discovered by someone other here and that's not a bad idea compared to the programming stuff needed for a limited S1 access to a S2 server.

Robbson.

Vykos69

2nd May 2006, 00:33

You wont get the limited access to S2 servers. There are several reasons, and most of them are easy to figure out:

First: you even have physics upgrade etc. for S1, why upgrade max. clients? Why should you buy S2 then (hey, people wanna live from their work...). Get the "new" game S2 for just an upgrade price and stop whining about some really really selfish shit. Or do you whine to Bill Gates, cause Win98 support stopped? Or Need For Speed Porsche Servers stopped? Or MotorcityOnline servers stopped? Or NFS Underground stopped? Is there actually ANY other game that gives you new track, physics upgrade, and additional features for nothing? 2 years after release. If there would be more people like you, there would be more S1 servers, but obviously, you are almost alone, and should start thinking about that...

Edit: Not getting Diploma for 3 hours of work?

STROBE

2nd May 2006, 00:35

It costs me more to go to a movie with my girlfriend than it costs to buy a S1 license. If I buy dinner as well, I've then covered the cost of the S1, S2, and S3 licenses.
Exactly. Things such as the cost of upgrading from an S1 to an S2 licence really need to be put in perspective. I'm frequently staggered at folk here complaining about lack of this, too much cost, can't justify spending that, etc.

But presumably they can somehow afford a recent computer and a suitable internet connection to play online games, rather than using monkeys at a typewriter to send messages by carrier pigeon.

Presumably they then also go to movies, nights out, going out for dinner, and so on. And in one night will have spent at least the cost of S3. I know I've blown at least the cost of S8 in one evening of drinking before (and that's just of the nights I can remember), and I sure as hell aint loaded either. I count my pennies and check my account balance before writing any cheques. But it's just the cost of living. Times change, things move on, shit happens, we all have regrets, but Robbson you aren't going to get anywhere by whinging about it. Either understand how the S1 content dates from nearly three years ago now (are there many other three year old niche sim titles with modern-day sequels that still have an active online community?) and that the twelve quid upgrade really is neither here or there compared to the general costs of living, socialising, or even computing; or open your wallet.

Gunn

2nd May 2006, 00:37

... it's about some principles I don't understand... Yes, that's exactly what it's about, things you don't (want to) understand.

Robbson

2nd May 2006, 00:45

OK OK OK OK OK

STOP THIS NOW! :x

I knew that a thread like this with a discussion to the payment policy is like running against a wall... But I've read a lot of interesting things, arguments and other *** stuff... thanks for all this time.

You have targeted a hidden goal with this discussion, aren't you? Who is paying you for this?
Because now I have a motivation for buying a S2 license... I want to drive against all these word fighters here... You can fight with words but how good you are on the road? :smileypul
Say goodbye to your best track times, I will beat them! :smash3d:

BUT....... there's still the sound issue left, maybe I will open another thread for this later... Perhaps there is a way to get off this reverb effect from the engine sound... I hate it. :really:
I can't drive with this engine sound... please create a switch to turn the engine reverb off... It sucks.... I hate it.... Did I already say that I hate it?

See you on track next month...

Thx,
Robbson.

ScooterFD

2nd May 2006, 00:53

I like to think of it this way:-

I could wait until the game is finished (when S3 final is released) and then pay my £36 which is about average for a PC game.

Only with LFS, the dev team let me pay a bit every now and then and get to see pre-release versions of the game, and even take part in what amounts to the most involved testing programme for any game.

Hankstar

2nd May 2006, 01:06

You're right Robbson, the dev team are paying us ALL to give you the hard-sell on LFS :nod:
Or maybe it's like this: you post on the official LFS forum with a rather spurious complaint about a problem of your own making. The locals arc up and say "actually, you have no argument" and recommend you buy one of their favourite games instead of complaining.
One of those scenarios makes sense.
Anyway, if you're buying the license, good! See you out there, and good lucking beating everyone's laptimes :up:
Thread closed, mission accomplished :D

[Scavier, I have done your bidding, now where's my cheque?]

Gunn

2nd May 2006, 01:19

BUT....... there's still the sound issue left, maybe I will open another thread for this later... Perhaps there is a way to get off this reverb effect from the engine sound... I hate it. :really:
I can't drive with this engine sound... please create a switch to turn the engine reverb off... It sucks.... I hate it.... Did I already say that I hate it?

See you on track next month...

Thx,
Robbson.Check your sound card settings to make sure reverb is not enabled. My LFS sound is working fine and the only reverb sound I get is when I am travelling close to a barrier and the sound is "reflected" back.

You might also like to search for all of the previous topics about sound before drawing any immediate conclusions as to the future of sound in LFS.

best wishes.

stay

2nd May 2006, 01:23

Doesn't turning down the "Echo Volume Boost" slider in the audio options section get rid of the reverb for you ?

Thats one of the first things I do after installing LFS.

Robbson

2nd May 2006, 01:25

Check your sound card settings to make sure reverb is not enabled. My LFS sound is working fine and the only reverb sound I get is when I am travelling close to a barrier and the sound is "reflected" back.

Yes, I've got your point but there is also a standard reverb all the time... My EAX control panel is very easy to access and I know that there's nothing wrong with it... (LFS is not the only game :) but the onlye one with this problem.)
I will check this out and will do some sample recordings so we can compare or it something like this.

Robbson.

Robbson

2nd May 2006, 01:26

Doesn't turning down the "Echo Volume Boost" slider in the audio options section get rid of the reverb for you ?
Thats one of the first things I do after installing LFS.
It's down to 1.0 all the time... it's the lowest value there.

Robbson.

Ball Bearing Turbo

2nd May 2006, 01:39

Egad, I leave work and come back to this hodgepodge?
Meh, well at least he's buying a license.

Robbson, I understood your point and was with you a for a bit until you started trolling for the sake of it... Not that it matters now.

Peace out.

oh, and FULL ACK.

SamH

2nd May 2006, 02:18

Okay I admit I skipped quite a few long posts to get to the end of the thread, but I think the point that was majorly missed was that, where say Tristan bought and played S1 for a year before everyone upped to S2(£1/month relative value), Robbson bought S1 one month before S2 made what he believes was a surprise entry. Proportionally speaking, £12/month relative value.. considerably more playability expense than Tristan's.

Truth be known, anyone who buys S2 these days will get roughly one year of playing out of it less than me, because I've had a licence coming up a year and as soon as S3 comes out, I'll be throwing my money at Scavier and graduating to the new S3 servers, tracks and cars that come with. So will the rest of us, let's face it. So come the event, when S2 is about to be superceded with S3, there are going to be people who get proportionally less "value" for their £24 than we have, particularly since LFS is THE ONLINE racing simulator.

I do very much sympathise with Robbson. It's rotten luck. Sod's law, frankly, and in no sense is it really FAIR.. but it is what it is, and we have to live with it.

On the positive side, Robbson has reaped the benefit of S2 physics and updates since his S1 investment, so his initial £12 outlay has had SOME return long-term, but I can't imagine for a moment having LFS and being unable to find anyone online to race with. I'd be gutted.. and the more I loved LFS, the more gutted I'd be. Robbson's clearly an LFS fan, from what I can see. I like the guy. Doesn't mean we're engaged, or anything..

Robbson, please.. spend the extra £12 and come race with us. You'll feel better, and frankly so will I. You have my sympathy, now spend some money and beat our PBs.. IF you can :)

fragile_dog

2nd May 2006, 02:23

SamH

2nd May 2006, 02:33

Hmmm, a small solution I feel. What if s1 servers showed up in the s2 server listings? Im assuming s2 players can play on s1 servers. This would make s1 servers more popular, allowing s1 players to have a decent race :).
I think that's a great solution. I do know quite a few S2 drivers who love to drive cars that just happen to BE S1 content, and would be REALLY happy to see the extra S1 drivers filling up the S1-content, S2 servers.

BBO@BSR

2nd May 2006, 02:58

....You have targeted a hidden goal with this discussion, aren't you? Who is paying you for this?
Because now I have a motivation for buying a S2 license... I want to drive against all these word fighters here... You can fight with words but how good you are on the road? :smileypul
Say goodbye to your best track times, I will beat them! :smash3d:

.....
Wow I still got the feeling that you made yourself a lot of real big friends in the community with all your absolute fantastic "non-troll-like" arguments in this thread. :thumb:

Now every 1 is happy that such a fantastic guy like you is buying an S2 license and they all can't wait to see your phenomenal driving. :nod:

We all waited for so long just for a guy like you who opend our eyes and showed us how expensive LFS is and whats wrong with us blind sheeps following scavier and their subtle marketing tricks.

:pillepall

.

SamH

2nd May 2006, 03:06

@ BBO@BSR
Was that helpful? Constructive? Positive? No :(

Someone who was unhappy is now happier, and this makes you unhappy? :shrug:

BBO@BSR

2nd May 2006, 03:25

@ BBO@BSR
Was that helpful? Constructive? Positive? No :(

Someone who was unhappy is now happier, and this makes you unhappy? :shrug:
Wo said posts have to be positive and that I have to like everyone? :)
It's just my opinion about some of what he wrotes and answered in this thread
(maybe read all the posts in here)

For me it's like he tries to blame someone else for things he couldn't get.
He couldn't drive S1 for long that's bad luck ok but that's life.
I can't count the games I can't play online because no one else plays them or the companies shut the servers down. That's just normal and is not a special fancy by the LFS devs.

I would say:
If you don't like what you get, don't buy it and try to find something better. But I don't think you can find something better then LFS today.

Brother Glade

2nd May 2006, 09:59

Eventhough this "issue" seems to be solved already I still want to point out something..
And for what you have paid the S1 license in the past? I will tell you: For online driving and that is the thing what LFS is all about!!
I don't want to pay for offline content only...

Robbson.
The problem is that you can't really buy "online content" (online experience). Online experince is very, very much dependent on the people who play the game and not the the game itself. And you can't count on the fact that when you buy a game that your online experience would live up to your expectations.

When you buy a game you buy it's contents, more spesifically a right to use it's contents. You don't actually own anything in the game. But anyway, the content includes online capabilities, but not online experience. They even say on most if not all game packages that "online experience may vary" because no-one can quarantee the quality of it. So in a way you always pay for "offline content" = game content.

SamH

2nd May 2006, 10:39

While applying logic and common sense, Brother Glade, you are of course entirely correct in what you say. But this is LFS, and we all know what makes LFS what it is.. the community of LFSers, and the races we have.

Or put another way, you don't buy a network card for its diodes and capacitors.. you're not expected to sit and gaze at the wonders of its PCB. You buy a network card for what it enables you to do. And if, after a month, it stops working.. you're not left smiling. :shrug:

Do you say to yourself.. "oh well, at least I can look at the diodes and capacitors and stuff. That's the stuff I bought, after all. The product itself."

Krane

2nd May 2006, 11:01

You buy a network card for what it enables you to do. And if, after a month, it stops working.. you're not left smiling. :shrug:Your comparison is flawed. It's more like he was downloading pr0n with Kazaa and then bittorrent came along and everybody else moved on to it. But he didn't and still uses perfectly functioning kazaa (:x ) but can't find anyone to download pr0n from because they are using bittorrent to share and download pr0n among themselves.

SamH

2nd May 2006, 11:18

If he'd PAID for Kazza, no matter what content he wanted to download, if it wasn't there, then its lost money.

The argument isn't flawed.

Brother Glade

2nd May 2006, 11:19

That's not the same thing. When he bought S1 and then S2 came along it didn't brake S1 in any way. It still works as it was intended to. The community just moved on to S2. S1 stayed as it was.

My point is that the manufacturer of the product cannot quarantee something that they can't have complete control over of. When you buy a network card you can't blame it on the manufacturer if your local network is slow or down. Or a better example would be if you'd bought a 10mbps card back in the day and then 100mbps cards came along and you couldn't utilise the higher speed available with your card let's say in some LAN event for example.

Same applies to LFS. Scawen, Eric and Victor cannot quarantee online experience because it's not solely up to them to provide it. People, community, makes online experience what it is. And if/when they move on to something newer/better and you get left behind you can't really blame it on anyone. It just happens.

You said it yourself:
But this is LFS, and we all know what makes LFS what it is.. the community of LFSers, and the races we have.

Krane

2nd May 2006, 11:24

If he'd PAID for Kazza, no matter what content he wanted to download, if it wasn't there, then its lost money.

The argument isn't flawed.I knew someone would say that..

Then compare bnc networkcards vs. ethernet networkcards.

I just thought the pr0n/P2P comparison would go through better than bnc of which most of the guys here prolly haven't even heard of.

It's not lost money, nothing is broken, everything works as it should, just the people to race with aren't there and you can't buy that nor can somebody sell it (ok, you could hire people to have a race with your clients, but it would cost too much).

al heeley

2nd May 2006, 11:26

No-one can be "forced" to upgrade, it's your own free will.
No-one is "banning" you from the community.
No-one has tried to "trick you".
When you bought an S1 licence you will have done so in the knowledge that it is a growing and developing sim. How long would have been acceptable to you before upgrading, before S2 was released? 3 months? 6 months? One year while all the rest of us have been playing already a year longer?
It's a sad reality, life can never be as fair as we would like it. There's always someone better off than yourself. Some people gripe about it, others could decide to try and organise people to participate in an S1 league with the old cars and old physics.
If you are the only one around who prefers S1, then maybe it's best that the efforts of the developers is best spent looking after the majority.

SamH

2nd May 2006, 11:38

I don't think any of us disagree particularly on any of the points we're making. Venture outside of specifically referring to LFS S1 and S2, and of course you can begin poking holes in the comparison.

At the end of the day, 2 things result: 1) Robbson bought S1 at a bad time. Rotten luck, can't be helped. 2) After a good ole rant, and listening to some comprehensive responses, Robbson is buying an S2 licence and will be tussling with us on busy S2 servers very soon.

It all looks good from here :)

ATHome

2nd May 2006, 11:41

I'm off to look if there's some good old S1 servers running...

I can't stand this Kyoto Oval, BF1 crap any more...:pillepall

Give me an LX6 and FE Black. That's racing :razz:

richo

2nd May 2006, 11:53

Same story ,
S1 works exactly how its meant to , of that theres no argument.
S1 Community has left to for greener pastures of S2 land, wether you make the move is up to you..

Now now no point going on about how little time S1 land was popular cos as an avid forum reader you knew all about the S2 subdivion being worked on and that new homes would be available very soon,so the best idea is to go see the bank manager and borrow some cash for a new S2 house and you play with all of us..

Thank you

Brother Glade

2nd May 2006, 12:04

Jakg

2nd May 2006, 12:48

OK, I just cutted out the other trolling, that you also started in german forum, and make it simple:

Just for the record of speculation: With S3 you get an Online Racing Sim with prolly 30+ clients on a server, LFSTV, about 1600 car/track combinations from low powered UF1 to formula1, from bike to trucks. With tracks from rallye to rallyecross, from autocross to Formula1 tracks, ovals etc. An uptodate DX9 engine with best texture work you can get.

And you want to tell me, that 54 Euros will be too much? How much did you pay for a single series racing sim called GTR, which didnt ran smoothly? New price 55 euros... or an even less equipped game like rfactor? Did those game work well? Ah, right, you gonna buy GTR2 for another 50 euros this year, for 3 new cars, a "brand new" gfx and physics engine and a season 2 years ago. Wow, LFS is expensive....

Ah, did I start about the planned online features of racemore? Costs of iracing? Ah, sry...

To put it straight: 36,- Euros for the quality you get atm is probably the best price/quality ratio out on the sim-market.gtr runs fine! provided that you run it in windowed mode, can wait a million years for it to load and can deal with the ISI physics

Hmmmmm, i think ill stick with LFS...

col

2nd May 2006, 13:56

... I paid the same price and be only allowed to play it some month before S2 Alpha release... and that's it... Hey, I bought it for online playing and not for offline content!... Having a little look at LFS World, the only person the OP has a right to be angry with is himself.
According to LFSW, he bought his S1 licence on or before 4th April 2005. He played S1 on a grand total of 7 days in that month, he then played on only one day in May, then one day in June, since then he hasn't played in a licenced server once.
Maybe Robbson, if you had actually played the licenced content online for those few months before S2 was released as you intended and claim to have done, you may not be so angry (with yourself) now !

kind regards

Col

Ball Bearing Turbo

2nd May 2006, 17:00

Still a moot point - but why are people saying that since he's using S1 he's using old physics? Correct me if I am wrong (with a statement from somewhere) but my understanding of the way it works is that someone with an S1 license still downloads the most complete, recent version of LFS and applies their unlock, which only unlocks the "S1" content on the current version of LFS. Thus there is no need for old servers with old physics - it's the SAME SOFTWARE, just the CONTENT is different with respect to the license you hold...

cannonfodder

2nd May 2006, 17:19

Hmmm, a small solution I feel. What if s1 servers showed up in the s2 server listings? Im assuming s2 players can play on s1 servers. This would make s1 servers more popular, allowing s1 players to have a decent race http://www.lfsforum.net/images/smilies/smile.gif.
I think that's a great solution. I do know quite a few S2 drivers who love to drive cars that just happen to BE S1 content, and would be REALLY happy to see the extra S1 drivers filling up the S1-content, S2 servers.

I agree, it does sound like a good solution.:thumb: Easier and less risky to security than trying to allow S1ers to access limited S2 servers. It would also be handy to let the S2 server list include demo servers as well as S1. LFSWorld can already to a combined S1/S2/0.3 list. Even though it might not make as much difference now that they've stopped selling S1 licenses, the problem will only pop up again with S3, and to a greater degree because of the sheer increase in the total number of accounts.

Brother Glade

2nd May 2006, 17:21

Until recently I was a S1 license owner. Yes, the difference is only in content. Same software, but limited content as you said :)

tinvek

2nd May 2006, 17:28

sh*t happens

i bought cod2 and cod with expansions at xmas as a present to myself off my son as loads of people i've known online since 99 enjoy playing them

i dont like them, find them too claustaphobic compared to bf2 and havent touched them since mid jan

i spent that money (can't remember how much but more than £12 ) and had about 6 hours play out of them but do i complain?

lets face it £12 is not a lot compared to the uk cost of beer, fuel, milk etc. and i assume its fairly similar in germany

if robson could afford to buy s1 then i am sure he can afford to upgrade to s2, a total cost of £24

this is exactly the same as what i paid for s2, no extra cost to him over me appart from the fact that he had the chance to play s1 for a month before s2 and probably for a while afterwards and has had access to the s1 content since.

if it comes to it it could be argued that s2 users who upgraded straight from demo because there is no longer an s1 option are being shortchanged as s1 users have a chance to try more cars and tracks and spread their cost over 2 payments.

ask yourself robson

is you found lfs today would you pay £24 for licence ?

have you bought anymore games or sims since you bought s1 licence and were they more than £12 to buy ?

if yes to either then dont complain

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 17:52

Robbson
Lets say you got a special offer when you bought S1, lets say you got it for half the prise. And lets say the original prise was 10, you would then get S1 for 5. Right?

But then, 3 months later, S2 is released and you want to upgrade. You pay another 10 for the S2 upgrade. And because you bought S1 so late you only pay 15 in total, everyone else though is paying 20, even those that have played LFS since the very beginning.

Well, I think it would have been unfair to those that have played LFS for a long time, why reward some new guys the devs don't have a clue if are going to stay or not, instead of those that have prooved that they will stay and actually use their program?

ooooh, smell a bunch of typos in this post.

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 17:57

Chaos

3rd May 2006, 09:11

I just skimmed through the topic, but have not found someone mentioning my improvement suggestion> Removing the S1/S2 separation (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=90). Somewhere in the thread Victor mentioned that there are very few people (like Robbson) with this problem and it would not be worth for Scawen to dedicate his coding time to this... And having the S1 servers show up for the S2 licensed is a good idea!

Pablo.CZ

3rd May 2006, 10:19

col

3rd May 2006, 11:26

Easy solution imho is divide server list to demo/licensed, not demo/s1/s2.
S2 player will see S1+S2 servers in one list, S1 player will see only S1 servers. There will be more players on S1 servers, because S2 player could connect to FE/LX4 race directly, no S1/S2 list changing.
S1/S2 status of server wont be set thru config, but automatically depending what track/cars allowed.

As has already been explained, this would cause a not insignificant problem.
If as S2 server is running an S1 track/car combo, and there were say 10 S2 players and 3 S1 players on it, what happens if all the S2 players decide they want to change to an S2 only combo ?
Do they kick the S1 guys? do they have to stay on a track they are bored with or go and find another server ?

There is no simple answer to this, which ever way it was resolved, some people would get annoyed, so why bother, certainly the current situation doesn't cause enough traffic on the forum to be a real concern :)

The best solution seems to be to show S1 servers in the S2 list, leaving the decision to the latest time for S2 players - this way there might be a little more competition for any remaining S1 players. Though I doubt there are many (I know for a fact the Robbson is S2 now :)

col.

Chaos

3rd May 2006, 12:06

i think Pablo ment> only add S1 servers to the list S2 licensed player sees... Do not change the server status... (serverside setup.cfg decides if the server is demo/s1/s2) so if the s2 players connect to s1 server they too can not change the track to Aston or drive the FOX on FernBay... if they want to drive anything from s2 they would have to go to another server (s2), because the one they are on, is S1 only. ...

Pablo.CZ

3rd May 2006, 12:34

As has already been explained, this would cause a not insignificant problem.
If as S2 server is running an S1 track/car combo, and there were say 10 S2 players and 3 S1 players on it, what happens if all the S2 players decide they want to change to an S2 only combo ?
Do they kick the S1 guys? do they have to stay on a track they are bored with or go and find another server ?
I thought not allow change to S2 combo until some S1 player connected, similar as /tracks command, you have to find another server too if your asked track isnt allowed

The best solution seems to be to show S1 servers in the S2 list, leaving the decision to the latest time for S2 players - this way there might be a little more competition for any remaining S1 players.
sounds good

Krane

3rd May 2006, 12:58

There's currently one 0.5S-U server, 3 if you count the 2 older versions. Of which 1 is occupied by 1 person.

Not worth the trouble nor the time.

speedfreak227

3rd May 2006, 13:20

i bought myself a horse and now everyone's using these new horseless carriages. DANGNABBIT! it's just not right.:pillepall

speedfreak227

eNGinE

4th May 2006, 08:27

LFS is NOT expensive. Compare LFS to the cost of a powerful enough computer in ANY country, and LFS remains small change, so no one should EVER be allowed to critisise it for being expensive. If they claim it's too much then how come they can afford a PC good enough to run the demo.
Yea.... LFS is not expensive ... compared to a PC,... a new Car IRL,... a house, ... LOL thats funny.
Would you plz compare a racing game with.. erm.. a racing game!

Should i tell you what happens if S3 will really cost £36.
It's easy: There will be no more new players!
The old players will stop playing it after some time... (for several reasons - life changes... I already experienced that with many games before.)
...and LFS will be dead.

Btw... before you affront me... i will buy this game in that moment when they release a track editor or at least release the file format so that some1 else can code a track editor.
ohh.... and the price should be not more then EUR 40.- of course....

[sorry for becoming a bit off-topic]

JJ72

4th May 2006, 09:23

buy the time S3 come out all game will cost more than 36Pounds I can assure you. (while being the same old crap or probably worse)

Just now the Xbox 360 games are topping 50, while latest PC games like Tocrap Racedriver already cost you 30.

Btw the longitivity of LFS wouldn't be a problem as long as the development goes on, this is no way a new game by any definition, but it's also no way ageing, it's still in it's early age of development I would say.

ORION

4th May 2006, 09:35

Yea.... LFS is not expensive ... compared to a PC,... a new Car IRL,... a house, ... LOL thats funny.
Would you plz compare a racing game with.. erm.. a racing game!

Should i tell you what happens if S3 will really cost £36.
It's easy: There will be no more new players!
The old players will stop playing it after some time... (for several reasons - life changes... I already experienced that with many games before.)
...and LFS will be dead.

Btw... before you affront me... i will buy this game in that moment when they release a track editor or at least release the file format so that some1 else can code a track editor.
ohh.... and the price should be not more then EUR 40.- of course....

[sorry for becoming a bit off-topic]
People even buy games for 70Euros or much more (World of Warcraft is the best example), and the LFS community will definetely not be dead.
What the devs should do, though, is remove the stages system, because people are too stupid to let it work as it should. :)

They dont realize that they get S1 for free when they buy S2 ;)

tristancliffe

4th May 2006, 10:14

Okay lets compare racing games. I'll do it in English money (cos it's the best :shy:)

LFS - £36 but you can pre-pay and play it early if you want to.
Grand Turismo x - £39.99 initially, probably reducing to 29.99 after a few months for each new version they bring out.
GTRx - £30 for each new version they bring out. Assuming one very two years, and two years before LFS is finished, they thats £60
GTLx - £30 a clone of GTR to fleece more money from you
rFactorx - £30 (once you add tax) Another version of rFactor's gravity defining masterpiece
netKar Pro - £25 but it'll still be unplayable online in all likelihood.

So LFS isn't really all that bad. I kind of hope track editors never get released, because it attracts a poorer type of person in my opinion, as well as flooding the community with 8 polygon versions of the 'Ring, including the 100ft kerbs.

TagForce

4th May 2006, 10:53

Okay lets compare racing games. I'll do it in English money (cos it's the best :shy:)

LFS S3 - £36
Grand Turismo x - £39.99 initially, probably reducing to 29.99 after a few months for each new version they bring out.
GTRx - £30 for each new version they bring out. Assuming one very two years, and two years before LFS is finished, they thats £60
GTLx - £30 a clone of GTR to fleece more money from you
rFactorx - £30 (once you add tax) Another version of rFactor's gravity defining masterpiece
netKar Pro - £25 but it'll still be unplayable online in all likelihood.

So LFS isn't really all that bad. I kind of hope track editors never get released, because it attracts a poorer type of person in my opinion, as well as flooding the community with 8 polygon versions of the 'Ring, including the 100ft kerbs.

Maybe peeps need to look at LFS and the costs differently...
S1, S2, and S3 are *not* seperate entities... You pay for S3, not S1 or S2... However, you have the option of paying a certain percentage of the game (S1 and S2) and that leaves less money to pay for the result. As soon as S2 was released S1 stopped existing! So those that have bought an S1 license should see it as their Symantec (or McAfee) update license ending... Maybe the devs should've made this clearer, and even shut down all the S1 licenses completely at some point. But they don't because they're nice people.

As for the track editors: Yeah, the community would be flooded with 8 poly versions of the ring, unless there's some kind of QA system in place. For every 10 "track creator noobs" there is at least 1 track creator artist, and for every 5 track creator artists there's 1 track creator god. I'd rather have the option of wading through 50 'bad' tracks to find one really good one, than to know I won't be seeing any tracks added at all.

mrodgers

4th May 2006, 11:05

Originally Posted by tristancliffe
LFS is NOT expensive. Compare LFS to the cost of a powerful enough computer in ANY country, and LFS remains small change, so no one should EVER be allowed to critisise it for being expensive. If they claim it's too much then how come they can afford a PC good enough to run the demo.
Yea.... LFS is not expensive ... compared to a PC,... a new Car IRL,... a house, ... LOL thats funny.
Would you plz compare a racing game with.. erm.. a racing game!

Tristan, this arguement can not be used. Yea, I just purchased a new computer, with tax return money that was overpaid recently. Do you know the last computer I had actually purchased was? A top of the line Pentium 75 MHz with upgraded to 8 mb of ram and a huge 2 gig harddrive. I don't think many of today's games would run well on that.

Since then I have aquired 2 Pentium 125's, an AMD K2 233, AMD K2 266, Celeron 667, and a Pentium 4 2.5 GHz. The Celeron was during S1 and just after S2 demo was released, I got the Pentium 4. Both of these were good enough to play LFS's respective stages. So, just because you HAVE a PC powerful enough to play, doesn't mean you PAID for them, therefore, saying paying for LFS is cheap compared to buying the PC good enough is not a good example.

disclaimer: I didn't pay for any of those PC's, but just wanted to note that with family members, throwaway's at work, and item swapping, I have all these PC's sitting in the basement along with my recent AMD 64 3500 purchase. I didn't steal them, hehehe.

tristancliffe

4th May 2006, 11:38

You are the exception to the rule. I have plenty of things that I own and aquired perfectly legally without actually paying money for them, and some of them are worth tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds, so you're argument that mine isn't any good, isn't actually any good.

mrodgers

4th May 2006, 15:07

My point being, I see all the time thrown at the demo players who say they can't buy a license that "if you can buy a PC good enough for playing, then you can afford the license." But, just because you HAVE a PC that can play it, doesn't mean you were able to pay for it, therefore can also pay for the license. An Aunt/Uncle can give you their old PC that's good enough because they bought a new one, but if they don't buy a license for you, you can still not have the means of paying for the license.

Some of the younger folks may not be allowed to have a job by their parents, some are in college and can't have a job, and some older folks are trying to raise a family on a single income where $44 USD is quite alot of money when trying to pay for everything else. ($44 is about 3 days of gasoline to get to and from work for me). For those who don't care about sending their kids to daycare for 8-10-12 hours a day while both parents work, $44 isn't alot of money. I prefer my wife to stay home and raise them which is why it took me a while to scrape up the $44 and why I am running an Athalon 64 3500 with only onboard from a cheapo off-the-shelf compaq crap (luckily, had just enough after paying off the hospital bills and some of the credit card bill with the tax overpayment return).

There are more important things to spend the money on when you are a family on single income. Hopefully, next tax return, I'll have enough left to pay for a years worth of broadband as coming up with the $35 every month isn't possible. To others, broadband is really cheap, not for me. I'll need to get it in one big chunk when I happen to get the money. Monthly service charges just doesn't work.

Ball Bearing Turbo

4th May 2006, 17:03

tristancliffe

4th May 2006, 17:07

Money (which isn't mine, it's my parent's really :p) can buy you lots of things, but it should never buy you friends. So no! :p

Ball Bearing Turbo

4th May 2006, 17:09

I never said I'd be your friend I just want to race!

LOL

j/k.

macready

14th May 2006, 22:20

maybe a cheaper upgrade if you're just purchased the game in the last x months? 12 to upgrade as usual but only £6 if you've purchsed the game in the last 6 months or so?

al heeley

14th May 2006, 22:49

Hmm, let's think that one through. We had months and months of speculation about when S2 was going to be released, then it came out without much warning. Surprise! Now anyone who bought the game up to 6 months earlier gets a £6 rebate from the original $12 they paid? That would be an almighty pain in the backside, and would cause further huge resentment from people who were just outside the timescale. Where do you draw the line?
Maybe everyone that pre-pays for S3 now without knowing the timescale gets a 1/2 price deal, then on the day of release the price doubles?
I think its more hassle than its worth for the three musketeers, to be honest, to police that sort of thing. After all the hours put into developing this game, they ain't getting very rich from all this.

KitRacer

15th May 2006, 09:56

Well I guess people have more or less made their minds up on this. I will say though, I mostly drive on rallyx circuits (not much online yet) and half the time that's XFG on blackwood (demo racers could drive the same!) or LX6 on same. Getting some S1 racers to be able to join in races on S2 servers (especially if there are S2 cars included driven by other players) may be something to encourage them to upgrade instead of ignore that LFS folder and play more rFactor...

Track change to S2 only, S1 drivers can't leave pit or something, they go somewhere else. Maybe they go to the website to buy an upgrade because of the great races they had for the last hour with their S2 friends.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar ;)

tinvek

15th May 2006, 11:07

i agree kitracer (does that mean you race kit cars or just knight riders car ? :) )

er anyway where was i?

yep let s1 racers use s2 servers if the track is compatable but obviously only with their car content, hopefully when they see what the extra car content is like they'll be tempted.

this matter needs to be sorted, not because of the s1 users but because at the moment we have x,000 s2 users and sometime in the future we are going to have to organise the switch to s3. from what i can see there was a big obvious reason to jump from s1 to s2, it may well be that a lot of s2 users will feel that s2 does enough for them and they don't need s3. in thta case we'll end up with 2 seperate camps and a split community

col

15th May 2006, 14:24

maybe a cheaper upgrade if you're just purchased the game in the last x months? 12 to upgrade as usual but only £6 if you've purchsed the game in the last 6 months or so?
I cannot belive how many people have made this suggestion ! :pillepall

cost of S1 = £12
cost of S2 = £24 OR £12 for folks with S1 licence.

I will translate these confusing figures for the more intellectually challenged out there:
If you already have S1, you get the FULL COST of S1 DISCOUNTED from the price of S2 !
Just to make absolutely sure you got that: If you have already purchased and S1 licence and you chose to buy an S2 licence, you get a TOTAL REFUND of 100% of the money you payed for S1

How the hell can you expect a better deal than that ?
How can you not be embarrassed asking for more ?

col.

SKurjz

15th May 2006, 15:52

this matter needs to be sorted, not because of the s1 users but because at the moment we have x,000 s2 users and sometime in the future we are going to have to organise the switch to s3. from what i can see there was a big obvious reason to jump from s1 to s2, it may well be that a lot of s2 users will feel that s2 does enough for them and they don't need s3. in thta case we'll end up with 2 seperate camps and a split community

Good point...

sinbad

15th May 2006, 17:07

As long as the two sections of the community are large enough, then there is no problem at all. The whole reason that the thread creator has a complaint is that S1 license holders are a tiny minority compared to the number of S2 license holders. Often there are very few racers in S2 servers, so of course there are going to be big problems finding populated S1 servers, because most of the time they don't exist. If there were more people like him (S1 license holders that want to race S2 cars and tracks online), he wouldn't have such a problem.

duke_toaster

15th May 2006, 17:32

tinvek

15th May 2006, 20:13

it has to be pointed out that he could afford £12 when he purchased s1, it would be a fair assumption that he should have been able to raise another £12 since then, if he hasn't purchased another game / sim in that time and hasn't bought one item that wasn't a life essential then fair enough but if he has bought himself a lager or smoked cigarettes or bought magazines which he doesnt buy regularly, then he could have saved the money if he wanted s2, he would only have paid the same as me

tinvek

15th May 2006, 20:30

separate post for seperate point

the title of this thread is

s1 is worthless for me and new players

new players have to buy at s2, they cannnot purchase s1 and as such cannot have the same problems as robbson, i was a new player when i bought a licence and i've had no problem finding servers to race on because i had to buy s2 at twice the cost robbson had to pay for his s1 content.

don't use the new player card to try and gain support robbson, i have some sympaphy but only due to the fact that in future we will all be faced with upgrading to s3 but to moan that you have to pay same as everyone else is a bit off.

so there arent many servers or online s1 users, could this be because everyone else decided they wanted, could raise the money and were willing to upgrade ?

can you honestly say that you do not have 1 game you bought in the past for aprox £12 that you do not play regularly today?

i certainly didnt play grand prix when grand prix 2 came out, 2 when 3 came out or 3 when 4 came out, should i have demanded crammond gave me a free upgrade? hell lets ask bill gates for a refund because flight sim 98 was a waste of money when the better 2002 version came out.
lets go further, i bought a replacement dial up modem in 2003, 2 months later (and ahead of schedule) broadband became available for my house, should i have demended they stopped everyone else using broadband just because i'd bought a modem i wouldn't use ?

Hankstar

15th May 2006, 21:29

Wow, this thread's like the Duracell bunny...

tinvek

15th May 2006, 21:45

Wow, this thread's like the Duracell bunny...

what covered in fluff, looks cuddly but is tough and unyielding underneath, corny but wanted by everyone or just that it goes on and on?

will duracell be doing a late night version of the ad featuring the duracell rampant rabbit ?:)

Starbreaker

16th May 2006, 03:59

Please do not feed the trolls

OpaJo

26th May 2006, 19:29

Hi,
after working through the whole thread I would like to add following:

I think the topic was not complaining about whether the price is too high or not. This depends on every single user. If you earn enough money it's cheap, otherwise it's exensive. If you use the game everyday it's worth the money, if you play it 1 time in 4 month, perhaps it's not. But this is so with all things in the life and was not the initial topic question.

So in my opinion there is no reason to complain about the LFS License system and prices.

But there is another point than money! Why not let S1 users race on S2 servers (sure only with S1 cars and tracks) as mentioned above. No one would experience a disadvantage. But everyone, S1 users, S2 Players, the whole LFS Community and even the developers would benefit from that, I'm sure. Let's explain why:

Pro:
#1) S1 users could play furthermore online -> wouldn't be frustated -> more likely would upgrade to S2 when they always be overtaken by S2 cars :)

#2) S2 users would have more competion racers on S1 cars and tracks

#3) Offering the S1-License again would make sense again -> that would provide a less expensive start into the community for people who can't pay the money or only drive very seldom -> you could upgrade step for step

#4) The number of online racers would increase -> that means more popularity -> that's what a online community like LFS needs

#5) The developer would get more money for their work and more fans/popularity (money is not the only thing that counts, is it?)

Contra:
#1) ? don't know any
#2) perhaps difficult to implement? but wouldn't it worth it?
#3) perhaps there is a security reason? but when the not registered demo racers are furthermore on seperate servers only, where is the risk? all other players are registered, aren't they?