Spinoff : Question for Hotlappers

[Scawen]

Hello Hotlappers,

I decided to spend half a day updating the hotlapping mode. I read a post by scipy some time ago suggesting that layouts could be available in Hotlapping mode.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1578876#post1578876
I think that does no harm if touching any added objects invalidates the hotlap. Also it allows hotlaps to be done on custom layouts / open configurations.

We won't be allowing hotlaps with custom lap timing to be uploaded to LFS world, but it can be used for practice or whatever you want to use it for.

I also decided to allow an autocross start position to be added, so you can choose your start point instead of always going from the last split. This is for convenience, doesn't affect lap times so would be valid for LFS World hotlaps.

Now the question I want to ask you. This question is for people who actually do hotlapping - I am not interested in the opinion of people who don't do hotlapping! :)

EDIT : I think we have the answer now (see below)

It's about tyre temperatures. I can make a very simple change to improve this, preheating the tyres to optimum temperature at the start point instead of 20 degrees below. I think this will eliminate a lot of messing around trying to get your tyres up to temperature. But could it cause any problems? This is such a simple change, took me one minute to do it, but I don't want to "break" anything with it (old hotlaps can still be viewed anyway). It would be more complicated for me to add a slider bar so you could choose the starting temperature, so I'm hoping that optimum temperature is what you want.

I just have a little doubt, for example in a car which had a habit of overheating its tyres, you might want to start your flying lap with tyres below optimum. But I'm not a hotlapper, so please tell me what you think.

EDIT : It turned out too important to do the slider bar, so I have done that now. Thanks for the feedback.

EDIT 2 : Two days later, this is the point we have arrived at...

Tyres section in garage - settings for tyre warmer temperatures
You can load a layout in hotlap mode (may include start position)
NOTE : LFS World hotlaps may include start position - not objects
Hotlapping is possible on open configurations (not for LFS World)
Reliable detection of wall side impacts (e.g. at South City)
Pit stops are no longer available in Hotlapping mode

[UnknownMaster21]

I have done several times hotlapping and I would like to say yes!

EDIT: I just almost never upload them as I usually want straightly on top 3 ( or very close to WR like 0,5 secs)


EDIT: Misread again, so there is no problems about it. I was telling like +1 for flying lap I mean with optimum tyre temperatures

[MaunoKasa]

I think problem with this is that you have to have lower temps in long tracks and fast cars to be able to finish it well. So i think its not so good thing.

Then again it would be good to allow people use racing line in hotlapping mode also so noobs like me could get some wr's :P

[Squelch]

Overheating tyres can be a problem for a hotlap setup, so my opinion is a few degrees below optimum so the sweet spot can be achieved quickly through some pre lap manoeuvres - not the acrobatics that some people feel the need to go through - Or, the sweet spot can be hit later in the hotlap.

This really depends on the layout/track though so I have a feeling one temp won't suit all.

If a slider cannot be made without too much work, is it possible to extend the tyre selection to include the current 20° below optimum 10°-5° below and Optimum, or even just two selections?

That isn't a request, but a suggestion if feasible.


Thinking some more, it really should be down to the hotlapper to manage their tyres, after all, that is part of the skill. A few degrees, say 5° should prevent the pre lap antics that I'm sure you would like to prevent.

I hotlap a great deal, but have never uploaded - I keep them for my own private embarrassment:shy:

[KassadGLA]

Hi, I use the hotlap system for telemetry and sometimes I upload hotlaps.
I think that, if we can't select the tyre temp at the start, a is better don't start with the optimum temp. Because if the car needs more temp, we can drift and warm it easily, but if we want it cold, we must wait some time for cold it.

Thanks

[[Audi TT]]

Scawen, add a slider to select the temperature of the tires. Between -10 degrees from the optimal temperature and to the optimum. -10 degrees - long track with an optimal temperature - small track.

[Trekkerfahrer]

To moving starting point and choosing tyre temps: Please NO!!! Hotlapping should show us the fastest driver under GIVEN CONDITIONS and if you give them tools to make it more individual, you may destroy the hotlapping mode significantly. All should have the same conditions, thats the point.

To place AC objects in HL mode: Mhhh, nice idea for training. May be a good thing for comparing braking points and so on.

The only thing i would like to have is a direct comparisation tool ingame.... so that we can load 2 hotlaps and we can see two ghost cars. Sure its possible via HL analyzer, but its better to see directly on track.

[ricebug]

Hi, I use the hotlap system for telemetry and sometimes I upload hotlaps.
I think that, if we can't select the tyre temp at the start, a is better don't start with the optimum temp. Because if the car needs more temp, we can drift and warm it easily, but if we want it cold, we must wait some time for cold it.

Thanks

Hello Scawen,
I agree to KassadGL's opinion. (I uploaded about 50 hotlaps, most of them have 102~103% distance to WR. So, I think I'm a very average hotlapper.)

Thanks~

[Scawen]

To moving starting point and choosing tyre temps: Please NO!!! Hotlapping should show us the fastest driver under GIVEN CONDITIONS and if you give them tools to make it more individual, you may destroy the hotlapping mode significantly. All should have the same conditions, thats the point.I would agree with you, if hotlaps required the user to go straight off the start line and do one lap. But it doesn't, they do all sorts of things to get the tyres up to temperature (sometimes quite extreme like donuts or driving along a wall with the front wheels on full lock) and when they start the lap, they may have done any number of laps before that.

So, adding a start point makes no difference at all in my opinion, and the same thing applies to the tyres. People really do not start the lap with the tyres in in the same condition. I think it's all about how fast you can do a lap. I'm just adding two tools to help you get the car into the correct state more quickly.

I'm trying out a tyre temperature slider right now, will report on progress.

[Squelch]

To moving starting point and choosing tyre temps: Please NO!!! Hotlapping should show us the fastest driver under GIVEN CONDITIONS and if you give them tools to make it more individual, you may destroy the hotlapping mode significantly. All should have the same conditions, thats the point.
Choosing your tyre temps is no different than changing pressures or compounds, so I fail to see your argument.

The current starting temps are ok for race mode, but are way too cold for a hotlap. Trying to build temperature before the lap begins, runs the risk of overheating the carcass before the core. Scawens proposed change would mean that the whole tyre would be uniformly hotter ready for the lap.

I agree that it is the drivers responsibility to managed their tyres, and edited my previous post to allow for it.

Adding objects to hotlap mode sounds good too. I've been sorely wanting some kind of marker to help me get the rhythm and turn in points at West Hill.


Oops! crossed post with Scawen.
^^ What he said
The slider sounds sensible if that isn't too much work for you Scawen :thumb:

[[Audi TT]]

It is interesting to see tyre temperature slider

[Nilex]

There is no universal optimal temperature that would accommodate all combos so forcing it would be a bad idea to the current system. Even adding an option for it would mean it would work for only part of the combos which would look as a half-finished quick patch. No go if you ask me.

The slider however is a great idea and looks like the best thing to do. Since it's complicated to do it probably means we would have to wait for it. That's no problem. Better to do it right first time and improve on that if the need arises.

Also, I would like to mention the questions of the complexity of the slider - something to think about for the future:
a) symmetrical or asymmetrical, or even individual tire setting?
b) setting individual parts of tires (all three)
c) limit the temp setting range to avoid people having to watch bullshit 200°C hotlaps
most important for me:
d) separate profile for each car (maybe expand the profile to include other stuff unique for each car: FOV, button rates, mouse steering ratio, and so forth... there are suggestions about this)
less important:
e) separate profile for each tire (for example: road / hybrid / R2 / etc)
masochist style:
m) for each combo (you select combo and slider is already set at user preference)

Custom starting position looks fine and i have no objections against that. Although better to make those universal just for LFSW so to avoid some bullshit that comes to mind. Or make them movable between last split and finish - still talking about only LFSW HLs. How universal i don't know but the people can have their say.

Although it looks i have only 3 uploaded hotlaps true number is around 100 times more as all i do online is 99% hotlap with people that do the same. So i'm 1 experienced mtf :thumb:

One more thought: probably good idea to make starting temp readable by insim thingy.

[[Audi TT]]

I have 60 hotlaps and I'm not going to stop.

[troy]

I'm no big hotlap guy but I think the tyre temps for the slicked cars are mostly fine and easy to get perfect before the lap if you want to, what you should increase is the temp for all the roadcars, thats where I mostly see a lot of tyre heating before the actual hotlap.

It could all be different again if the new tyre physics come out though, so you really think it is a good idea to fiddle with that now?

[Eclipsed]

Well - loading layout on hotlap mode would mean that people could chalk all around the lap the ideal line with braking markers,that would make obsolete that feature which prohibits to show original line from key 4.

About tyres - not a good idea to put optimum temperature because in a lot combos you need to start with colder tyres to not overheat them at the end of lap. Possibility to choose starting temperature sounds good,could be good to choose seperately front/rear tyres (if not seperately all 4). In ovals for some cars ideal temperature for starting is even higher than original optimum temperature,maybe would be bad to have an option to choose 10 or 20 degrees over optimum. For example MRT@oval - getting needed temperature (some 120+ for R3) is half of effort and success and it's very long process.

[Joku123]

I think I'm pretty hardcore hotlapper with around 20 hours of hotlapping this week. :razz:

Imo optimum temperature would work only for slow cars/short tracks. On any other combo optimum temp is pretty useless. If you start lap in GTR car with optimum temperature tyres, your tyres will be dead after few corners. For me only slider bar makes sense.

Also, to get the best possible result you would need own slider for every tyre. For example, FWD cars need more heat for rear tyres than front tyres at start because front tyres heat up more during lap and vice versa for RWD cars.

I hope this isn't too impossible to make. :schwitz: Tyre heating is very annoying and time consuming so even some kind of relief would be great. :)

[[Audi TT]]

eh warm tire UF1, it's an awfully long time

[Mysho]

Generally it's good idea, I've done several hotlaps, had 10+ WRs at my time. Actually, in GTRs, singleseaters etc. you really do that one lap on optimal temp... However when you pick up some longer track and slower car you might want start on reasonably cold tyres ending up in optimal temperature (not overheated) so you can take final corners as you want. Just poiting out that it might not work as you think however I'd still say yes so everyone has same conditions.

Just to add that I've never been doing donuts, full lock, or anything in my hotlaps. It's possible to make a fast lap without it. The real example is XRR @ WE1R the only WR left I have right now.

[Scawen]

OK, I've done the slider bar, you can choose between 20 and zero below optimum.

Yes, it is a good idea to do this now, the same will apply to the new tyre physics so it's not a waste of time, and this is the layouts patch.

It's nearly finished, I just need to break HLVC when any added object is touched (not just the movable ones).

[[Audi TT]]

It's nearly finished, I just need to break HLVC when any added object is touched (not just the movable ones).
I wish you luck



A problem with a track so3 decided? I mean the last turn.

[Squelch]

Imo optimum temperature would work only for slow cars/short tracks. On any other combo optimum temp is pretty useless. If you start lap in GTR car with optimum temperature tyres, your tyres will be dead after few corners. For me only slider bar makes sense.:)
If your tyres are dead after only a few corners, its a bad setup, or you're over driving. Part of the skill is looking after your tyres - for a full race as well as a hotlap - The current problem is starting a hotlap with cooler tyres, and as you say, tyre heating is annoying, and also hard to get right.

If a slider can be produced, then the range should run between the current 20° below optimum to maybe 5° above for all tyres in my opinion. Setting individual tyres is getting too complex I think.

OK, I've done the slider bar, you can choose between 20 and zero below optimum.
Sounds good, and that was quick.
One question if I may - Does tyre temp affect pressures? I've always believed so, but never really been certain.

[Joku123]

If your tyres are dead after only a few corners, its a bad setup, or you're over driving. Part of the skill is looking after your tyres - for a full race as well as a hotlap
It is faster to start with cool tyres and drive as fast as you can than start with optimum temp tyres and look after tyres. :shrug:

[Fox 2]

Preseting tyre temp? That would be great, but ideally, it'd have to be a slider, with some cars you have to start with lower than opt temp, since the tires will heat up a great deal during the lap, while with others, you may want to select higher than opt temp (think UF1, MRT5). Since a starting tyre temp would be clearly visible, noone would be at a disadvantage.

As far as lays go, I fail to understand the point in skippy's post. Surely, one can make a layout with modified start point, what's the problem? There will be only one split with limited placement point (since you'll have to cross it on the out lap, so you'd have a full timed lap and not a full lap+start to finish line). Now, that is the only flaw with this configuration, and in my opinion - it's nothing. When you qualify - the only thing that matters is the final laptime, and you can train different sectors separately. The (possibly) easy fix for this whole situation, that comes to mind is simply to make some option for the first lap to start to count when the player crosses the finish line, instead of starting to count right after the lights, like in hotlap. That may be usefull in some AutoX layouts too, actually. And it'd work online, so no limiting to hotlap mode.

But if layouts were to be allowed in a hotlap, in my opinion, it would be better if those hotlaps were to be disallowed to upload to LFSW in any form. I'm thinking about placing some markers (conus, white lines) for braking points, apexes (AS3r last corner, would help a lot). It's bad enough with "4" helper in multiplayer, I know guys who wouldn't hotlap only because they just can't drive without that line. Contr-argument would be that those layouts would be accessible to anyone, so again, no disadvantage, but I really hate the idea, that we may be hotlapping with this aiding conuses, that's really not in the spirit of hotlapping.

[Squelch]

It is faster to start with cool tyres and drive as fast as you can than start with optimum temp tyres and look after tyres. :shrug:That is a good question, and my gut feeling is you should be quicker when starting at optimum, and maintaining it for max grip, but who knows :shrug:

But if layouts were to be allowed in a hotlap, in my opinion, it would be better if those hotlaps were to be disallowed to upload to LFSW in any form. I'm thinking about placing some markers (conus, white lines) for braking points, apexes (AS3r last corner, would help a lot). It's bad enough with "4" helper in multiplayer, I know guys who wouldn't hotlap only because they just can't drive without that line. Contr-argument would be that those layouts would be accessible to anyone, so again, no disadvantage, but I really hate the idea, that we may be hotlapping with this aiding conuses, that's really not in the spirit of hotlapping.The way I understand it is objects are allowed to be placed in HL mode, but the lap cannot be uploaded. I see them as a good training aid, but would be dissapointed if someone used a ramp to cut a corner and not trigger HLVC for a WR

[[Audi TT]]

but would be dissapointed if someone used a ramp to cut a corner and not trigger HLVC for a WR
Restrict the autocross objects to hotlap, ie remove unnecessary ones.

[vourliotis]

Didnt see the topic before but...
OK, I've done the slider bar, you can choose between 20 and zero below optimum.

Yes, slider is a good option.
Preheating the tyres to optimum temperature it isnt because sometimes we want to start the lap with cold tyres.

Thank you very much Scawen:)

[rediske]

...considering myself a 99.7% hotlapping user of LFS nowadays, I'd love to try the planned changes in hotlap mode.

My opinion: It must not be possible to upload hotlaps with preset tyre temps !

But it would really simplify a quick hotlap training session! :thumb:

I really appreciate that something new is about to come for us hotlappers!!! :razz:

edit: how about adding another slider bar - for the hotlap starting point, moving an indicator dot in the small map...

[[Audi TT]]

i really appreciate that something new is about to come for us hotlappers!!!
+100500 :)

[Scawen]

I'm pleased you like the changes.
...considering myself a 99.7% hotlapping user of LFS nowadays, I'd love to try the planned changes in hotlap mode.

My opinion: It must not be possible to upload hotlaps with preset tyre temps !I don't know why you say that, it just eliminates all that tyre heating business, which is not really the point of hotlapping. I can only see that as a good thing. :)
edit: how about adding another slider bar - for the hotlap starting point, moving an indicator dot in the small map...SHIFT+U... edit... S

You can now add a start point wherever you want. Just don't invalidate your HLVC between that point and the finish line (where the lap starts).
The way I understand it is objects are allowed to be placed in HL mode, but the lap cannot be uploaded. I see them as a good training aid, but would be dissapointed if someone used a ramp to cut a corner and not trigger HLVC for a WRThey can be uploaded. You just can't hit any objects or touch them with your tyres.

[avetere]

EDIT : It turned out too important to do the slider bar, so I have done that now. Thanks for the feedback.


Well, actually, as you did this slider-thing:
You might want to consider to do the same thing on all occasions (is that spelled correctly?!)

This might be a nice thing e.g. for one- or two-shot qualifications in leagues :thumb:

[Scawen]

While I'm at it, does anyone know of any walls that you can hit hard without triggering HLVC?

Meaning, they have the wrong surface type and can be used to slow you down - if so, it might be possible for me to detect that wall and change its surface type.

[nesrulz]

EDIT : It turned out too important to do the slider bar, so I have done that now. Thanks for the feedback.

Nice. :thumb:

EDIT: Each tire individual temp. or?

[[Audi TT]]

While I'm at it, does anyone know of any walls that you can hit hard without triggering HLVC?

Meaning, they have the wrong surface type and can be used to slow you down - if so, it might be possible for me to detect that wall and change its surface type.
yes. track so3.Watch replay.When you hit the wall has been improved sector 2 and the circle was credited.

[Squelch]

While I'm at it, does anyone know of any walls that you can hit hard without triggering HLVC?

Meaning, they have the wrong surface type and can be used to slow you down - if so, it might be possible for me to detect that wall and change its surface type.
Not a wall, but I have recently missed my turn in at the chicane at We1 in a BF1, realising I wouldn't make it, steered to the right of the tyre stack to avoid damage and I was very surprised to find hitting the kerb launched the car clear of the gravel trap, and did not trigger HVLC. In fact I binned it at the next complex looking up to see if I really had gotten away with it. Sadly I omitted to save the replay, and haven't been able to reproduce the exact same line.

It was this incident that prompted my ramp comment earlier, and I'm sorry I don't have proof yet, but your question compelled me to report it nonetheless.

[scipy]

I don't know why you say that, it just eliminates all that tyre heating business, which is not really the point of hotlapping. I can only see that as a good thing. :)

Just my 2 cents about starting tire temperatures: I agree that for road cars (especially STD class), the tire temperatures should be closer to 45-50°C, but on the other hand, if you are starting a hotlap on AS5 with a GTR class car, even the current 65°C (which is 20 below optimum of 85) for R2 tires is kind of high as tires will reach melting temperatures by the end of the lap.

Also, hotlap setups are generally made with very high cambers which means if you start the tire warming procedure (which isn't really a problem in the mentioned GTR class) on your outlap, you will be entering the hotlap with inside layer of tire already several degrees warmer than middle and outside. But I'm guessing the new system would warm up all of the compound and the air inside the tire to the selected temperature.

This coupled with the choice of starting position could be a solution to the GTR/R2 tires melting, but I'm still off the opinion some wider choice of starting temperature should be given. In fact, I can imagine scenarios where one would actually want to start a hotlap with tire temperatures above the optimum (situations like FBM where R1 and R2 compounds are a bit missmatched, or GT2 style setups where you have R3 tires on the rear and R2 tires on front etc).

Maybe give us a week in the test patch to try +-30° around the optimum, but I don't see how it'd hurt to have more choice over less..

P.S. In the spirit of cooperation I really don't want to be a nag, but before the tyre physics patch comes out you should re-think the tire compounds a bit (in a sense that R3 shouldn't be the same for BF1, FZR and UFR.. It should have the same optimal temperature, but it should be compounded differently and acquire/lose heat in a slightly different way from car to car).

[Renku]

EDIT : It turned out too important to do the slider bar, so I have done that now. Thanks for the feedback.
Decision made already? In that case - I approve!

[[Audi TT]]

scipe, I do not think need week for testing. Theoretically, we know how to reacts tire when heated. Just need change the temperature of the front and rear wheels separately, but better for the 4 wheels separately.

[scipy]

;1597511']Theoretically, we know how to reacts tire when heated.

We don't. Have you tried letting a R3 tire cool down to ambient temp and then drive on it? I'd rather test than guess.

[Scawen]

I don't want to add more than one slider - I just want to keep things simple to get the patch out as soon as possible.

Anyway I have changed it so it goes from -30 to +30 (relative to optimum temperature).

[[Audi TT]]

SciPy, not tried.

[Squelch]

I don't want to add more than one slider - I just want to keep things simple to get the patch out as soon as possible.

Anyway I have changed it so it goes from -30 to +30 (relative to optimum temperature).
That works for me.

Having all 4 tyres at a known temp doesn't prevent a driver from selectively warming pairs I suppose. Also the different compounds will react differently, so gives some more scope for refining I would guess.

I've searched, but not found a definitive answer. Does tyre temp affect pressures? I know it works the other way round, but have always assumed that a hotter tyre is at a higher pressure. for some irrational reason I'm doubting it now.

[PMD9409]

Agree with scipy on the "slick" cars aspects and testing.

Also, this is more of a question of how hotlapping should be defined. Should drivers be allowed to drive and wear down the tires and then do a hotlap? With the tires wore down the car is lighter etc which allows for faster laptimes.

Should this be restricted in some way?

[Renku]

While I'm at it, does anyone know of any walls that you can hit hard without triggering HLVC?

Define hard! The question should be written without the word 'hard' in it, but one can dream..
I watched 6 South City hotlaps, 3 should be invalid IMHO. I remember being told that the physics calculations in LFS run only 100 Hz or smth and therefore such cheating in hotlapping is generally accepted.

http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=47382 just before 1st split time
http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=33717 twice before the 1st split time
http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=34090 just before the 2nd split time

One of the wall contacts shows visible bodywork damage, so I think it qualifies as 'hard'.

It's been awhile since my last hotlapping session, but I remember being quite disappointed with the fact that LFSWorld allows uploading replays with wall contact while I tried to keep my hotlaps clean as possible. It's midnight here, somewhere in a forest, with little or now internet and you really can't ask for players to go every hotlap out there!? Or you were expecting the WR holders to show their own hotlaps where they cheated (IMHO)?

[kart-36]

It's not a wall but directly after split 2 of fe3 you can drive on the inside grass and it's doesn't do anything

[Dygear]

Sadly I omitted to save the replay, and haven't been able to reproduce the exact same line.

Holy mother, that would be a pretty cool replay.

[Squelch]

I've searched, but not found a definitive answer. Does tyre temp affect pressures? I know it works the other way round, but have always assumed that a hotter tyre is at a higher pressure. for some irrational reason I'm doubting it now.
Found it.
Pressure already varies with temperature (of course).

It's only a few psi difference when the tyre gets quite a lot hotter.

The absolute pressure (relative to a vacuum) is proportional to absolute temperature (relative to absolute zero = -273 degrees C).


Holy mother, that would be a pretty cool replay.Yes.
It went something like this.
Almost crashed, skipped the trap, still on track, OMG!, double check, out brake myself, Damn!, Shift+R, Facepalm - I should have saved that.

[Sueycide_FD]

I noticed on some SO layouts where i've grinded against the wall and it hasn't triggered a invalid lap, but if anything i rather see for HL'ing is the implementation of the secondary classes such as GT2 and etc. It would make it easier for leagues to follow "you must be this percent of WR to enter".

As for the Hotlap layouts, i don't see how that will work. The Charts may get real messy.

[Scawen]

A lot of South City wall collisions got past HLVC but they won't any more because I've included the wheel hub contact point in the count. The problem was where the kerbs were high, the lower bodywork was hitting the kerb rather than the wall, so not enough body was touching the wall. With the wheel centre contacts included, it triggers HLVC reliably.

As for the Hotlap layouts, i don't see how that will work. The Charts may get real messy.It's the same charts, only you might see the person started from a different position than default, because they placed a start position, or maybe they would put some cones in a few places.

[Mustangman759]

snip
if anything i rather see for HL'ing is the implementation of the secondary classes such as GT2 and etc. It would make it easier for leagues to follow "you must be this percent of WR to enter".


+1 , Have the generic GT2 class implemented as a "car" would allow for more wr's to

[rediske]

My opinion: It must not be possible to upload hotlaps with preset tyre temps !

I don't know why you say that, it just eliminates all that tyre heating business, which is not really the point of hotlapping. I can only see that as a good thing. :)

It is a good thing, I appreciate it and I will use the new feature happily.

I just thought that if you want the 'glory' of having your hotlap uploaded to lfs-world, one should do the tyre warming manually... :shrug:

Just my personal opinion.

[Fox 2]

Scawen, I beg you to think again about allowing uploading hotlaps with layouts.
If one were to be allowed to place cones wherever he wants, what's the point of removing "4" from hotlaps? It is supposed to be just you, car, track and a stopwatch, without any cones standing in the middle of the track to help you get through blind corners (which is my main worry).

When you are training - sure, cones can be of a help, and adding them in hotlap mode would maybe help someone. But why allow hotlaps with those training aids to be uploaded to LFSW? Training is training, going all out for a maximum result is something different.

[PMD9409]

Scawen, I beg you to think again about allowing uploading hotlaps with layouts.
If one were to be allowed to place cones wherever he wants, what's the point of removing "4" from hotlaps? It is supposed to be just you, car, track and a stopwatch, without any cones standing in the middle of the track to help you get through blind corners (which is my main worry).

When you are training - sure, cones can be of a help, and adding them in hotlap mode would maybe help someone. But why allow hotlaps with those training aids to be uploaded to LFSW? Training is training, going all out for a maximum result is something different.

+1 to this.

[rediske]

...It is supposed to be just you, car, track and a stopwatch...

+1

Only hotlaps that reflect pure clean skill should be entitled to being uploaded to lfs-world.

[Joku123]

While I'm at it, does anyone know of any walls that you can hit hard without triggering HLVC?

Meaning, they have the wrong surface type and can be used to slow you down - if so, it might be possible for me to detect that wall and change its surface type.
Check my SO2R FXR wr. Especially sector 2. :x
Tbh I didn't do it on purpose. Normally hitting that wall just ruins your lap.

[[Audi TT]]

With the wheel centre contacts included, it triggers HLVC reliably.
All hotlaps will be removed now? I mean hotlaps with contacts wheel hubs on the wall.

gt2 support the idea. +1

[Scawen]

;1597661']All hotlaps will be removed now? I mean hotlaps with contacts wheel hubs on the wall.I don't know about that, but I'll talk to Victor about it.

Scawen, I beg you to think again about allowing uploading hotlaps with layouts.
If one were to be allowed to place cones wherever he wants, what's the point of removing "4" from hotlaps? It is supposed to be just you, car, track and a stopwatch, without any cones standing in the middle of the track to help you get through blind corners (which is my main worry).About cones in hotlaps, maybe there could be a limited number in official hotlaps, like 30 objects including the start position? I realise hotlapping isn't exactly comparable with something in the real world, but if you did set your car up and warm its tyres in preparation for doing the fastest possible lap, probably no-one would object if you would put a few cones around as well.

I was wondering about a limited number of laps or time, or disallowing pit stops. I think it's a bit boring when a hotlap replay is like all day long and includes pit stops, parking the car and so on.

[sermilan]

I was wondering about a limited number of laps or time, or disallowing pit stops. I think it's a bit boring when a hotlap replay is like all day long and includes pit stops, parking the car and so on.
Makes sense... maybe limited time for 2 laps or something like that, because if you limit the lap numbers they can again go all day long in opposite direction.

[msk]

Anyway I have changed it so it goes from -30 to +30 (relative to optimum temperature).
Optimum temperature of knobbly tyres is 40°C. Setting slider to -30 would mean tyres have 10°C on the start, and ambient temperature in LFS is at ~20°C. We shouldn't be able to cool tyres down below ambient temperature :razz:

[AttaHorse]

Scawen,

there was good discussion about this 5 years ago: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=12091

Let me quote myself
I DO agree with the idea of starting hotlap with already heated tyres. That'd save A LOT of time. Look at some KY1 replays. 5 minutes of tyre heating and 1 minute of driving. What is the competition? "Who has more patience to warm tyres perfectly"? Or "who can drive faster"? And there is absolutely no chance to show good time without hot tyres, so you have to spend this time. Not spend, waste. And there is no output of this. None of skills improving. Just boring porcedure. Mmmm.. Would you include washing dishes in "eating breakfast" simulator?
So, selecting tyre temp would eliminate boring useless procedures and save time, only racing will remain. Only hotlapping will remain, nothing else, I think that's he purpose of hotlapping mode.

PS: yes I don't have many hotlaps now but I'm now just out of LFS. I used to have 100+ hotlaps incl fast oval ones.

[vourliotis]

Not exactly.
5 minutes is not for warming the tyres but because they want thinner* tyre, because is faster like this.
In this cases we will still have some boring hotlap replays.

*its not the right word... i hope you understand what i meant.

[[Audi TT]]

Optimum temperature of knobbly tyres is 40°C. Setting slider to -30 would mean tyres have 10°C on the start, and ambient temperature in LFS is at ~20°C. We shouldn't be able to cool tyres down below ambient temperature :razz:

Not necessarily set the value of -30 degrees

[Neilser]

My comments, as someone who has done quite a few hotlaps (mostly to figure out why I'm so slow)...

Heating tyres: excellent idea. Individual temps are still totally realistic (ignoring the teleport to start position of course) but differing temps between inside and outside of tyre are not (think what a blanket would do).

Layout: start position = excellent idea (Westhill comes to mind). Objects other than start position on uploadable laps: I think not a good idea (agreeing with the points made above by others really).

Tyres below ambient: why not? (Have you never seen a fridge? ;))

Invalidation of existing hotlaps with contact: tricky problem. Might be good to ask the question more widely. I guess it would depend on how many "fair" hotlaps vs. "unfair" hotlaps get wiped out.

And a question for Scawen: why do "thin" tyres enable higher speeds? I've wondered for ages but never done all the testing I imagined I might :) I was guessing lower rolling resistance as one of a few possibilities... (Or maybe it's entirely non-physical of course.)

And many thanks Scawen for doing this - yes, the boring hotlaps are not only boring to watch but boring to make. I guess we're all hoping that the new tyre physics might eliminate the "thin tyres are faster" issue as well :)

[J@tko]

And a question for Scawen: why do "thin" tyres enable higher speeds? I've wondered for ages but never done all the testing I imagined I might :) I was guessing lower rolling resistance as one of a few possibilities... (Or maybe it's entirely non-physical of course.)
Exactly. You've got a much smaller surface area so less friction. It's just like if you're on ice - give yourself a push on ice skates and you'll go miles, but if you're on trainers then you won't go very far at all. Hence also why higher tyre pressure = bigger top speed - the higher pressure opposes the mass of the car on the tyre thus it keeps its shape better, making it thinner giving you a higher top speed :)

[vourliotis]

So... the slider wont save us from boring, long-time hotlaps:tilt:

We need a limit for that. Lets say 2 laps.

[Scawen]

Invalidation of existing hotlaps with contact: tricky problem. Might be good to ask the question more widely. I guess it would depend on how many "fair" hotlaps vs. "unfair" hotlaps get wiped out.I can run a test on that later - I have a program that can quickly run through all the world records, so I could do that at SO and count how many would be excluded.

So... the slider wont save us from boring, long-time hotlaps:tilt:

We need a limit for that. Lets say 2 laps.I've been thinking maybe 10 minutes total replay time limit would be good.

[[Audi TT]]

So... the slider wont save us from boring, long-time hotlaps:tilt:

We need a limit for that. Lets say 2 laps.

Will be times when removing all the WR, then the fun will be))))
I look forward to this moment

[Flame CZE]

I like the new feature of adjustable tyre pre-heating and I also appreciate the time restriction in hotlap mode as well, which will prevent people from uploading 2 hour long replays :smileypul

10 minutes seem to be reasonable, considering the fact that the WR on the slowest combo lasts something over 4 minutes, which is ok for (more than) one lap.

[Nilex]

...
About cones in hotlaps, maybe there could be a limited number in official hotlaps, like 30 objects including the start position? I realise hotlapping isn't exactly comparable with something in the real world, but if you did set your car up and warm its tyres in preparation for doing the fastest possible lap, probably no-one would object if you would put a few cones around as well.
...
No cones in lfsw HLs please.
While the pre-warming of the tires was a good concession to make the replays more focused on the hotlap, introducing cones under the same argument is clearly wrong. It would be abused like Fox 2 cleverly noticed.

Also, I understand you plan to mark the start position by some cones or whatever? We would then need to plan about where to put it so it's not on the ideal line for the actual hotlap. Isn't it more prudent to make it invisible? For example similar to invisible route checker that's only visible in shift+u. Something like Hotlap start position where you select place and orientation.

[Scawen]

First comments from Victor are :

1) He is one of those who doesn't like the idea of allowing any objects in the official hotlaps (though a start position is fine). I think there is a clear majority on that so let's say that is decided.

I'll finish the code to support that. I think that where it says "HLVC" in the top right it will say "CUSTOM" if there is anything more than a start position added. That automatically covers custom lap timing (for open configurations). It will say "INVALID" if there is no lap timing enabled or you are on a single stage track (Drag Strip).

2) He doesn't like the idea of artifical time or lap limits. But he does support the idea of disabling pit stops. I am happy to go with that. It will reduce some of the most excessive hotlap replays, without us having to decide on a given number of laps or minutes.

I don't think there are any remaining questions, apart from what do to with the old hotlaps that do not comply with the new rules (improved wall detection at South City and no pit stops). The way I'm thinking at this point in the day, I think it would be good to take a tough line and just remove the "offending" replays (those with pitstops or SO wall impacts) probably sending an email to anyone who has a replay removed (when the patch is official).

[pasibrzuch]

I've been thinking maybe 10 minutes total replay time limit would be good.
Kindly sorry, as it can stand as off-topic, but...
This limit and temp. slider will stop super long tyre preparations for one hotlap for sure. People wear out tyres because it gives an advantage in current version of physics. Maybe it is good time to include a note into new physics to make fresh tyres as advantage, not weared out, especially slicks, gravels and rain tyres in future. Just a long range thought.

Thanks for current changes! :thumbsup:

[pasibrzuch]

If the Physics are being made more realistic, that will take care of itself..
I hope so :)

[Eclipsed]

I don't think there are any remaining questions, apart from what do to with the old hotlaps that do not comply with the new rules (improved wall detection at South City and no pit stops).
I think - let them be,they will be erased with new physics anyway,whenever they're done!

[vourliotis]

I don't think there are any remaining questions, apart from what do to with the old hotlaps that do not comply with the new rules (improved wall detection at South City and no pit stops). The way I'm thinking at this point in the day, I think it would be good to take a tough line and just remove the "offending" replays (those with pitstops or SO wall impacts) probably sending an email to anyone who has a replay removed (when the patch is official).

My opinion: remove them :shy:

I'm sorry to hear that will not be time limit at hotlaps :(

[Renku]

2) He doesn't like the idea of artifical time or lap limits.
Didn't Victor increase the allowed HL file size from 1MB to 1.5MB that can be allowed to upload to LFSWorld just because someone asked for it? My memory struggles a bit atm. I would like to see the max file size decreased to 0.5MB maybe? UF1 AS6 WR replay is 7 laps long and 'weighs' 697KB. The 0.5MB file size limit would be a good compromise to the limiting things, IMHO.

[pik_d]

What is the problem with someone taking as much time as they want? It's not called time attack, which is generally a more strict version of hot lapping, so why not let someone take 3 hours if they need it? If someone is willing to take an hour (or more) to get their tires just perfect and they get a WR because of it, then they deserve it for having that dedication. If someone else isn't willing to take advantage of the way LFS' tire physics currently work (faster at the end of a stint than the beginning) then that's their own issue, not the other guys.

Same with pit stops, if you're giving people the time they want (as Victor is for) then why artificially limit things with no pit stops? If a person, in real life, is out hot lapping at a track day they have the option to pit for fuel and keep their worn tires, so why not keep it the same in LFS?

Keeping these things in gives people more options and enables them to go faster by making use of the physics that come with LFS, taking stuff away just makes it so that the people willing to do long stints can't, for what reason other than some people aren't willing to do that so don't want others doing it either?


Edit: No one is forcing people to watch hour long hotlaps. There's even a slider at the bottom that lets you skip around so you can find just the fastest lap. How is this even something worthy of complaining about?

Edit2: The replays even tell you what lap the fastest lap was done on, so you can pretty easily figure out how far to skip ahead in the replay. I really think the people complaining are worried that someone will spend an hour scrubbing tires (this happens in real life doesn't it? Just not the same way) and "steal" their WR, but aren't willing to put in the time to take it back under the same legitimate conditions. As JPeace says, hopefully the new tire physics will be more realistic (really worn tires = slower) so this won't even be an issue then, but it's just as "bad" as people using unrealistic setups to go faster, and everyone does that too.

[sermilan]

What is the problem with someone taking as much time as they want?
Because the car running on worn tires is faster than the one on new ones.
If you have a WR set in such a way then it doesn't mean that you are the fastest one in the world. It usually means others won't be bothered to spend an hour cruising just to be able to set a faster time, so the whole picture won't be accurate ;)

[Scawen]

pik_d :

The problem is that if people have do do all sorts of crazy things to be competitive, then you can't be competitive without doing those crazy things.

So for example if it takes half an hour and several pit stops to get the car into a state where you can get a world record, then this is quite a problem. We don't want people to have to do that. This is about getting in your car and doing a fast lap. Ideally that's what it would be. The hotlap tables are supposed to show who can drive the fastest lap, not who is patient enough to exploit flaws in the physics system that can be exploited in a one hour replay.

Victor's point about not limiting the time is that really, LFS physics should be realistic enough that a car should be best when it is fresh, warmed up but not worn out. At the moment, LFS physics isn't quite producing this outcome. But we hope that in future it will.

[pik_d]

Because the car running on worn tires is faster than the one on new ones.
If you have a WR set in such a way then it doesn't mean that you are the fastest one in the world. It usually means others won't be bothered to spend an hour cruising just to be able to set a faster time, so the whole picture won't be accurate ;)
Yes but:If someone else isn't willing to take advantage of the way LFS' tire physics currently work (faster at the end of a stint than the beginning) then that's their own issue, not the other guys.
and
but it's just as "bad" as people using unrealistic setups to go faster, and everyone does that too.

The purpose of hotlapping is to go as fast as you can with the conditions you're given. It's good that Scawen is changing the conditions regarding the rough wall riding, because that was "legitimate" yet widely seen as unsportsmanlike. Spending time scrubbing your tires... well... do you get mad at people who set their fastest laps at the end of their stint in a race? In F1 this year it's really clear when the tires are fastest, even though they're carrying more fuel the fastest laps are set at the beginning of their final stint, not the end when their tanks are empty (which is how it is with LFS).

[pik_d]

Apparently you haven't uploaded any hotlaps, so your opinion isn't worth that much.
I've uploaded 82 hotlaps between May of 09 and April of this year. They're all still up, I don't have any world records but I'm in the top 10 in the XRG and FOX ranks.

[Scawen]

I've uploaded 82 hotlaps between May of 09 and April of this year. They're all still up, I don't have any world records but I'm in the top 10 in the XRG and FOX ranks.Sorry about that, I did the wrong search string. :shy: I'll edit my post.

[Neilser]

Edit2: The replays even tell you what lap the fastest lap was done on, so you can pretty easily figure out how far to skip ahead in the replay. I really think the people complaining are worried that someone will spend an hour scrubbing tires (this happens in real life doesn't it? Just not the same way) and "steal" their WR, but aren't willing to put in the time to take it back under the same legitimate conditions. As JPeace says, hopefully the new tire physics will be more realistic (really worn tires = slower) so this won't even be an issue then, but it's just as "bad" as people using unrealistic setups to go faster, and everyone does that too.Firstly, using a slider to move a long way into a replay still takes time, as (sadly) it seems that the SPR files don't have any checkpoints - on my PC skipping a long way into a replay can take tens of seconds. Not nice if you want to watch a particular corner a few times. But that's a side issue. The worn tyres thing is just massively obnoxious, legal and all as it is. To have to do that to match times with somebody is simply not fun. To have a set that's a bit crazy doesn't waste 20 minutes of my time, even if it's unrealistic (which setup aspects are unrealistic btw?).

Exactly. You've got a much smaller surface area so less friction. It's just like if you're on ice - give yourself a push on ice skates and you'll go miles, but if you're on trainers then you won't go very far at all. Hence also why higher tyre pressure = bigger top speed - the higher pressure opposes the mass of the car on the tyre thus it keeps its shape better, making it thinner giving you a higher top speed :)
Mmm, drifting off topic here but a quick reply (let's start another thread if you disagree with me :)) is that while high pressure means less rolling resistance (less deformation), less tread thickness does not mean less surface area or friction. Contact patch area is more or less entirely decided by tyre pressure. I guess the most likely candidate (since Scawen sadly didn't answer this bit :shy:) is that it's just plain unphysical; another flaw in the old tyre physics.

Edit:
* Ah, I see in a recent post that Scawen implies it is indeed a physics flaw :)
* I don't feel really strongly about removing pitstops or having time limits btw - the point has already been made that the problem will sort itself out once the tyre physics is updated.

[Silverracer]

While I'm at it, does anyone know of any walls that you can hit hard without triggering HLVC?

Meaning, they have the wrong surface type and can be used to slow you down - if so, it might be possible for me to detect that wall and change its surface type.

I'm not a hotlapper, and the following are not wall hits, but maybe they can be checked since you are working on the topic of hotlapping; am sorry if this is not relevant and simply a waste of time.

---

Discussions from the following thread:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1422447#post1422447


Some have been mentioned but here's all I can think of:

Hitting the wall at SO3's final corner
Driving on the apron at KY1/r and KY2/r (check KY2R FBM WR)
Cutting Green curbs (the one here and the fast chicane) at KY3
Button clutch

KY3/r areas which apparently don't trigger the HLVC.

http://s730.photobucket.com/albums/ww308/Litrolfs/kart-36/?action=view&current=de35acf0.pbw

Explain that

[pik_d]

pik_d :

The problem is that if people have do do all sorts of crazy things to be competitive, then you can't be competitive without doing those crazy things.

So for example if it takes half an hour and several pit stops to get the car into a state where you can get a world record, then this is quite a problem. We don't want people to have to do that. This is about getting in your car and doing a fast lap. Ideally that's what it would be. The hotlap tables are supposed to show who can drive the fastest lap, not who is patient enough to exploit flaws in the physics system that can be exploited in a one hour replay.

Victor's point about not limiting the time is that really, LFS physics should be realistic enough that a car should be best when it is fresh, warmed up but not worn out. At the moment, LFS physics isn't quite producing this outcome. But we hope that in future it will.
The same reasoning applies to pit stops, if the new physics come out right then there will be no point in doing pit stops just the same as there will be no point in spending an hour on the same tires.

Thanks for editing that post. :)

[Flotch]

Pre-weared tyres with a temperature we can choose (like 5-10° less than optimum to start the lap) is the best for doing hotlaps... :thumbsup: (it will avoid 20 laps replay for WR with small cars, and 360° at 150km/h to heat up the tyres...)
I could not agree more on South City crazy wall-riding replays that have nothing to do with racing ...
Pit-stops .... hum ... of course not in hotlaps please :D

addendum :
pre-launched car before the main straight crossing the starting line (or the corner before) could be good too if possible (I mean not too hard) to implement ...

[Trekkerfahrer]

Hotlaps should only be valid when its driven between the white lines. I mean no apron, no green fields on KY3, no excessive curbing... simply !2 wheels must stay on track!, that is usual in all motorsport series.

I know that all tracks need an update then, but i just wanted to give my 2 cents on it ;)

[scipy]

I don't want to add more than one slider - I just want to keep things simple to get the patch out as soon as possible.

Anyway I have changed it so it goes from -30 to +30 (relative to optimum temperature).

Just to double check I'm understanding this right.. Situation: front tires R2, rear tires R3 (lfs knows optimum temps are 85 and 100), one slider for all 4 tires.. how does one make the R3's 5°C above optimum and R2's 10°C below optimum?

Or did you just mean no for the individual sliders for each tire, but keeping the front/rear as 2 separate sliders (at least if different compounds are mounted on each axle)?

[Seb66]

Just on the off-chance I get lucky. Racing line in hotlap mode please:)?

[boothy]

Just on the off-chance I get lucky. Racing line in hotlap mode please:)?

Read you Jabba, he just said that you can now place objects, ie chalk/markers, in hotlap mode :rolleyes:

[Scawen]

Just to double check I'm understanding this right.. Situation: front tires R2, rear tires R3 (lfs knows optimum temps are 85 and 100), one slider for all 4 tires.. how does one make the R3's 5°C above optimum and R2's 10°C below optimum?

Or did you just mean no for the individual sliders for each tire, but keeping the front/rear as 2 separate sliders (at least if different compounds are mounted on each axle)?No, just one slider in total, so you can't put some above optimum and others below optimum.

[Scawen]

Read you Jabba, he just said that you can now place objects, ie chalk/markers, in hotlap mode :rolleyes:Am I misunderstanding you, or are you misunderstanding me?
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1597833#post1597833

[boothy]

Must've missed that from earlier :shy: - but would you still allow full layout control of non-lfs world hotlaps? Would be useful for doing hotlaps on open configs. Ignore me if I'm talking shite.

[PMD9409]

I'll finish the code to support that. I think that where it says "HLVC" in the top right it will say "CUSTOM" if there is anything more than a start position added. That automatically covers custom lap timing (for open configurations). It will say "INVALID" if there is no lap timing enabled or you are on a single stage track (Drag Strip).


Reading saves lives.

[scipy]

No, just one slider in total, so you can't put some above optimum and others below optimum.

OK, kinda defeats the purpose for most gtr cars (FWDs usually have very cold rear tires.. that's where + would be usefull, and the mentioned GT2 setups for GTR class), maybe we can get you to reconsider separating front and rear axles? :) Pretty please?

[[Audi TT]]

In hotlaps very rarely used for the class of GTR slicks r3 - r2

[Joku123]

ok, kinda defeats the purpose for most gtr cars (fwds usually have very cold rear tires.. That's where + would be usefull, and the mentioned gt2 setups for gtr class), maybe we can get you to reconsider separating front and rear axles? :) pretty please?
+1

[PMD9409]

;1598090']In hotlaps very rarely used for the class of GTR slicks r3 - r2

Not true.

UFR, XFR, FXR (all being R3 front and R2 rear), and FZR (R2 front, R3 rear). So it is quite needed actually.

[nesrulz]

OK, kinda defeats the purpose for most gtr cars (FWDs usually have very cold rear tires.. that's where + would be usefull, and the mentioned GT2 setups for GTR class), maybe we can get you to reconsider separating front and rear axles? :) Pretty please?

Left and right wheels also...

[Scawen]

Right, I've put it in the setup now instead of it being a global setting.

There's a front and rear tyre warmer setting in the Tyres section in the Garage.

You just set the absolute temperature from 20 to 120. Old setups load with the warmers set to the optimum temperature.

[Squelch]

Right, I've put it in the setup now instead of it being a global setting.

There's a front and rear tyre warmer setting in the Tyres section in the Garage.

You just set the absolute temperature from 20 to 120. Old setups load with the warmers set to the optimum temperature.
That makes sense with the absolute temps, and moving them to setups is also a good idea.

Not that my opinion counts due to lack of uploads, but the front rear/individual settings are taking it a bit too far. I thought the whole idea of this was to dispense with the protracted tyre warming period? There is still scope to get the tyres where the driver wants from a global start point after all. It is nice however that you have considered the requirements, and I hope that testing will show that individual tyres will not need setting.


While I admire the patience some people have had with getting their tyres "just right" before setting a lap. It is actually the reason I have never uploaded. I simply don't have the time or patience to go through all of that, so concentrate on simple warming. Scawen's "Warmed up, not worn out" is very much how I approach hotlapping

[Squelch]

While I'm at it, does anyone know of any walls that you can hit hard without triggering HLVC?

Not a wall, but I have recently missed my turn in at the chicane at We1 in a BF1...

Holy mother, that would be a pretty cool replay.
I was just experimenting with tyres and did it again. Not quite so well pulled off, and I aborted, but I did get the the replay which clearly shows HVLC was not triggered.

I'm guessing Scawens request was for objects that can be hit without triggering, and probably relates to the recent collision changes. Also it seems to happen at Kyoto, and might require track changes. Please ignore this if this is the case. SPR included for completeness.

[Neilser]

There's a front and rear tyre warmer setting in the Tyres section in the Garage.
:thumb:

[[Audi TT]]

Not true.

UFR, XFR, FXR (all being R3 front and R2 rear), and FZR (R2 front, R3 rear). So it is quite needed actually.
Sir, we are talking about hotlaps. In hotlaps slicks R3 is not used, apply in training or qualifications. But I support the idea of individual heated front and rear wheels.


GT2 Poll (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1598200#post1598200)

[boothy]

;1598199']Sir, we are talking about hotlaps. In hotlaps slicks R3 is not used, apply in training or qualifications. But I support the idea of individual heated front and rear wheels.

So why does the FXR KY3R WR, and many UFR/XFR/FXR WRs use R3/R2 then? :really:

[[Audi TT]]

So why does the FXR KY3R WR, and many UFR/XFR/FXR WRs use R3/R2 then? :really:

Sorry, i didn't know. Since i these combos no hotlaps
but
But I support the idea of individual heated front and rear wheels.

[Scawen]

Thank you all for the feedback and discussions. I think it is all done now, which is good because I have a few more things to do before the incompatible test patch can be released - I do expect that to be this week. Please do try out the hotlapping changes when the test patch is released, to make sure the system is well tested before the official patch.

After two days, this is the point we have arrived at...

Tyres section in garage - settings for tyre warmer temperatures
You can load a layout in hotlap mode (may include start position)
NOTE : LFS World hotlaps may include start position - not objects
Hotlapping is possible on open configurations (not for LFS World)
Reliable detection of wall side impacts (e.g. at South City)
Pit stops are no longer available in Hotlapping mode

[[Audi TT]]

we test)

[dawesdust_12]

Scawen: Why no pit stops?

[pik_d]

Scawen: Why no pit stops?
He posted his opinion on them in this very thread, read his posts and you'll understand (maybe).

[Flotch]

Tyres section in garage - settings for tyre warmer temperatures

All good, but on this point we will "only" have access to temperature ? not the amout of rubber on the tyre ?

[Neilser]

... read his posts and you'll understand (maybe).Indeed, and since this is a test patch, I guess that if somebody has a very good reason for reinstating pitstops in hotlaps, they might come back...

[Squelch]

All good, but on this point we will "only" have access to temperature ? not the amout of rubber on the tyre ?That seems to be the case. If you think about it, worn tyres going quicker are an artefact of the current physics model. In real life, the tyres are at their best when new. Perhaps Scawen has not included amount of wear because he knows the new physics are closer to the truth.

[[Audi TT]]

Why wear? Tires must be warmed and fresh. Percent wear should not be regulated (0%). Remember the Formula 1, there also is heated fresh tires and begin to go qualify.

Sorry for the translation from Russian into English. Me too difficult to understand you.

[Flotch]

I thought the "poll" is for current version of physics ...
But I agree, fresh tyre should perform better in most cases

[[Audi TT]]

I thought the "poll" is for current version of physics ...


In addition to physics, from some people had a desire to new classes.

[DANIEL-CRO]

what about when some demo racer want check WR, and this replay contains layout (which isnt avaible in demo) ?

[Scawen]

Just to be clear : a hotlap at LFS World can only contain a start position.

But yes, that is a layout, even if it's only a start position. Good point, I'll check what happens and make sure it works. I guess they'll need to be able to watch it, just like they can use the training lessons which are also layouts.

[Scawen]

Yes - demo racers can watch replays that contain layouts. :up:

[Franky.S]

Yes - demo racers can watch replays that contain layouts. :up:

So i'd assume the "test run" option is disabled for them?

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Looking forward to testing the hotlapping, can you hear me TBO guys :nod:

[arco]

Who takes hotlapping seriously now anyways, as long as people are allowed to use exploits like button clutch scripts and what not. :shrug: Looking at most of the wr's set in the last 6 months or so sure is a sad sight. Just thought I'd mention it while we're on the subject on fixing hotlapping stuff...

[vourliotis]

Me :tilt:

But you are right. I stop the hotlaps with TBO & UFR because of this button clutch sh1t and i am driving only cars that not affected (etc FXR) :(

Its a shame.

[Neilser]

Any official position on killing the button-clutch exploit with an incompatible patch?

[Squelch]

Any official position on killing the button-clutch exploit with an incompatible patch?
It was mentioned in the INSIM Changes thread
That seems to be a bug which I have now fixed. The player flags were not checked for changes when leaving the Controls screen.

I don't know if that affected any other PIF_ flags, but if it did, they should be fixed too.

[Whiskey]

that has nothing to do with the exploit. Only to servers where button clutch is forbidden.

[Squelch]

Yeah I guess you're right. I kind of inferred from the remark, that starting a hotlap is equivalent to leaving the pits, so exploits like that would be detected. It's a point that needs clearing up all the same.

[Scawen]

I don't think I'll be doing anything about that. It's probably one of a thousand things I could do but I just want to finish what I'm doing and release the patch, not add more to the list.

Forgive me for being out of touch, but what exactly is the button clutch exploit? Please only reply if you really know exactly what it is, not a vague idea.

Is it...

1) using external software to simulate a clutch action that is faster than humanly possible, while LFS is set to AXIS clutch?

Or...

2) something to do with LFS's button clutch?

[Whiskey]

I think this is the method.

Ok, i'll try to explain. The same as i got it explained i while ago.

Go to LFS. Set clutch to manual clutch. Assign your clutch to a button on your wheel.

Go to profiler --> go to your shifter pedals --> go to select assignment (? english?) and press NEW assignment. Call it whatever you want, i recommend shift down and shift up :).

Go to options and tick the box with Pauses. Press ok. Press record and press your buttonclutch and shifterpedal together. Press ok. Make sure the clutch is the first one.

Start LFS and it's done. You are now doing an automatic manual shift :P (wtf).

Doing button clutch slower could avoid the exploit I guess.

[kart-36]

There is various things that people use...
1) You start your hotlap with AC enabled, once you start the lap you click it off, and you can use the clutch (which will be on a button) and LFSW still thinks your using AC.
2) A setting in logitech profiler, its somthing very simple, works the same way as button clutch...EDIT: like explained in the post above.
3) An external program which does a very similar job that the logitech profiler.

EDIT: All these methods are faster than AC, its makes it so that there is minimal time on the clutch (also with the external programs i think you can set it so that it only uses a certain % of the clutch? Not fully sure on that

[Seb66]

I don't think I'll be doing anything about that. It's probably one of a thousand things I could do but I just want to finish what I'm doing and release the patch, not add more to the list.

Forgive me for being out of touch, but what exactly is the button clutch exploit? Please only reply if you really know exactly what it is, not a vague idea.

Is it...

1) using external software to simulate a clutch action that is faster than humanly possible, while LFS is set to AXIS clutch?

Or...

2) something to do with LFS's button clutch?

It's just the fact that LFS's button clutch is way faster than autoclutch. So people use software like the logitech profiler to make it really easy to go faster by button clutching (and then making it faster again by controlling how fast the button clutch 'button/key' is pressed). pdf of a simple way of how it's done linked below.. There are ways to make it even faster ofc ;)

E - got beat by like 20 people.. win.

[vourliotis]

Another external software is xpadder.
(www.xpadder.com)

All these ways makes the car faster than autoclutch and us -that we dont use it- unhappy.

[sermilan]

Button clutch can be used even with AC on and without setting the profiler.
For example, for FOX to shift down it takes a slight throttle release normally. However it can be avoided by simply pressing & holding shift down button and then pressing the clutch button fast.
http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=30197 around 2:30 time of the replay.

[Squelch]

We can't change gear if the engine/roadwheel speeds are too different, and the clutch isn't disengaged above a certain threshold. The clutch-button exploit takes advantage of this on the clutch axis, and allows seamless changes where they simply shouldn't be possible. Some simulated gearbox inertia might prevent this, but hey.

[sermilan]

It's not such a big issue to make it priority at the moment, in my opinion.
Better let Scawen get back to work on physics than bother with this now. There would be plenty of time for tuning up once the physics is out, so button clutch can wait until then.

[Neilser]

...button clutch can wait until then.
Agreed.

[[Audi TT]]

Also agree. Better when the patch will be released with the new physics

[Nilex]

Button clutch exploit (although these are cheats, not exploits):

Two purposes:
a) ease of use
- normally two key presses at same time are needed for gear change (shift) to be successful: upshift/downshift key + clutch key. This is not easy when multiple fast downshifts are necessary (braking). But, by using 3rd party application to create a macro that emulates two presses into a single key... becomes easy. There's absolutely no way of getting rid of this exploit, and detecting it is nearly impossible. Not all is golden for these cheaters as there are some problems with it.

b) faster clutching
- max button rate is 10, right? Wrong.
There's a hack that raises button rate to whatever... and causes no OOS errors. This is potentially detectable.

And apparently exploit that kart-36 mentioned above:
1) You start your hotlap with AC enabled, once you start the lap you click it off, and you can use the clutch (which will be on a button) and LFSW still thinks your using AC.

And that's that.


Now some personal opinions if i may:
This is a pretty big issue that's caused by only a handful of personas and since there is no official statement of what the hell a cheat is community is only barking at the sky and no action can be taken. Hence my reluctance to speak before. My concern is that you try to fix the issue of cheating before you know all the facts because it could lead to some bad decisions.

So i recommend you drop this for now and open a new topic later, when or if you feel ready. Where cheat can be defined, where the terminology could be standardized (is important cause members have been calling the same thing many different names) so that legit stuff don't become a cheat two posts after. Where community could contribute on a solid foundations.
I should also tell you i'm talking about subtle cheats that bring 0.1 sec/1 min, it's up to you to decide if that's worthy of the time. I remember we had Victor's announcement here on the forum to report any cheaters if we see them; that was about those blatant supersonic cheaters. They pretty harmless ever since ban button was invented tho. That 0.1 sec are killing it, not those that we can see.

[Squelch]

...I fully support those sentiments, and also believe this needs revisiting at a later date.

[pik_d]

Who takes hotlapping seriously now anyways, as long as people are allowed to use exploits like button clutch scripts and what not. :shrug: Looking at most of the wr's set in the last 6 months or so sure is a sad sight. Just thought I'd mention it while we're on the subject on fixing hotlapping stuff...
Have last 6 months worth of WRs had a higher rate of exploits over the last few years? Maybe it has but that stuff has been around forever. If that's not it, what do you mean by "a sad sight"?

[arco]

Yes, it's been around for a long time. The thing is, since the physics has been the same for years now, the wr's set by using the normal methods have been pushed to the absolute limit. So to beat them without using unfair methods is really really hard. But by exploiting this button clutch thing, you can easily beat most wr's with up to 0.3 seconds. I'm counting at least 20 wr's set just last month, that's not using auto clutch, so I would definitely say it's happening more now than before. I guess respect and fair play is not so important in LFS anymore. That's what's so sad.

[kart-36]

Yes, it's been around for a long time. The thing is, since the physics has been the same for years now, the wr's set by using the normal methods have been pushed to the absolute limit. So to beat them without using unfair methods is really really hard. But by exploiting this button clutch thing, you can easily beat most wr's with up to 0.3 seconds. I'm counting at least 20 wr's set just last month, that's not using auto clutch, so I would definitely say it's happening more now than before. I guess respect and fair play is not so important in LFS anymore. That's what's so sad.

Yeah i agree. When you compare a AC lap with sombody using button clutch, down the straight when they shift its actually visible to see on the LFS data thing. The difference in speed from 1 shift is just incredible.

[Alien_CZ]

Just make button clutch as quick as auto clutch. Problem solved.

[boothy]

If you disable autoclutch now, the fact you have button clutch is now correctly reported via insim - previously you could switch between manual/button on track without it being detected. So hopefully lfsw will now be able to detect button clutch, and disallow it if Victor wishes.

[Squelch]

If you disable autoclutch now, the fact you have button clutch is now correctly reported via insim - previously you could switch between manual/button on track without it being detected. So hopefully lfsw will now be able to detect button clutch, and disallow it if Victor wishes.
That was how I understood it, and why I linked to the subject. Those packets would only be available for the new patches I think, so therefore are not backward compatible perhaps?

[Seb66]

Just make button clutch as quick as auto clutch. Problem solved.

No. That doesn't solve the problem at all.

[[Audi TT]]

Scawen, look at these two repeat. In 1 a repetition of the automatic clutch, 2 a repetition clutch the button (automatic clutch disengaged). Scawen, you see the difference?

[scipy]

;1599055']Scawen, look at these two repeat. In 1 a repetition of the automatic clutch, 2 a repetition clutch the button (automatic clutch disengaged). Scawen, you see the difference?

I'm sorry, but I've had enough. STOP POSTING. Your every post was utterly useless. Either it was your general lack of knowledge about a variety of subjects you've commented on, or in this case, it was posting a replay of a car with a sequential ignition cut gearbox to demonstrate a clutch "problem". The fact that you don't even see where the issue is with this was the straw that broke my back. Please stop trying to help.

[[Audi TT]]

ну ладно, решайте сами.

[Kristi]

Now you are posting in Russian, how is that solving the problem?

[dawesdust_12]

Now you are posting in Russian, how is that solving the problem?

Showing his posts could get more useless.

[[Audi TT]]

Translate (http://translate.google.ru/#) rus-eng

[Mysho]

Just a quick question:

Hotlaps for open configurations - will they be allowed somewhere in the future (after deletion of all hotlaps due to physics update) or is it meant to stay like this forever?

[Victor]

You will be able to hotlap on an open configuration (with custom timing - a layout with checkpoint(s) and finish line) and save out the replay as well, in case there is a need for that (for a league pre-qualification for example).
But these hotlaps cannot be uploaded to LFS World. There you can only upload hotlaps made on regular configs.

[AutoPilot]

I'm late for the original topic (I'm fine with the proposed solution for the tyre preheating anyway), but I can chime in for the button-clutch problem. Yes, it's a pretty big issue and has ruined HL for me to a large degree. As arco said, physics hasn't been reset for a while so most WRs have become quite non-trivial to beat, and it's very sad to see some alien-like WRs being beaten by BC exploits. Majority of WRs in the last 6-12 months have been with BC. It's not a priority, but I'd really like to see something being done about it by the next time the hotlaps on LFSW are reset, as right now I have zero motivation of putting any sort of significant effort into a lap just to see it beaten with BC.
It's not just BC either, seems like the "root of all evil" is the fact that there are faster ways to shift than AC. Even with clutch pedal + shifter I've heard people are using crazy stuff like setting profiler so they need only press the clutch like 25% and using a button to switch between CL+SH and AC so for downshifting when it doesn't matter they just use AC etc. And you can trick LFSW too, there are BC laps on LFSW that are marked AC, so you can't trust that either any more...


Button clutch exploit (although these are cheats, not exploits):
I should also tell you i'm talking about subtle cheats that bring 0.1 sec/1 min, it's up to you to decide if that's worthy of the time. I remember we had Victor's announcement here on the forum to report any cheaters if we see them; that was about those blatant supersonic cheaters. They pretty harmless ever since ban button was invented tho. That 0.1 sec are killing it, not those that we can see. On tracks like Bl GP with GTI/TBO, it's an easy 0.2-0.3s. Let's say I drove XRT on some hypothetical track for a year, 8 hours every day, and ended up with a PB of 2.00.00 (assuming a fixed set, i.e. no set-related laptime improvements) . The progress over the year would be roughly:
<2.01.00 - probably in the first couple of laps since it's XRT, my favourite car since S1 demo
~2.00.50 - 1-2 days
~2.00.30 - probably less than a week
The rest of the year would be spent on the remaining 0.3s which would likely be more luck than skill.

On a 2min track, 0.3s is a good estimate for the BC advantage over AC, so if people can't see where the problem lies if someone is given a free 0.3s advantage, then they're not hotlappers IMHO.
No, it won't make an average joe crushing WRs, nor do I care if average people use it. It's fast people who can make a decent lap into something that will make aliens sweat that I care about.

Anyway, my 3 cents...

[scipy]

I don't see where the problem is.. If the goal is to have a world record, imo one should use everything available to him to go faster and this includes tire warming, shifting faster, etc.

If you want to be a "moral pillar" of the community against something that is available to everyone and is not some modification of the LFS.exe itself, why not do the following: if you have a AC world record, and it gets beaten by some BC'er.. just take it back with BC and beat him by another 3 tenths.

If someone is taking a WR by wearing out his tires and gaining even more time, just take it back using the same tactic (just don't be the first one to use it).

Problem solved. There was no problem to begin with.

[Mysho]

I don't see where the problem is.. If the goal is to have a world record, imo one should use everything available to him to go faster and this includes tire warming, shifting faster, etc.

If you want to be a "moral pillar" of the community against something that is available to everyone and is not some modification of the LFS.exe itself, why not do the following: if you have a AC world record, and it gets beaten by some BC'er.. just take it back with BC and beat him by another 3 tenths.

If someone is taking a WR by wearing out his tires and gaining even more time, just take it back using the same tactic (just don't be the first one to use it).

Problem solved. There was no problem to begin with.

You're wrong... If there is no BC at all, then there is no problem to begin with. I don't give it that much attention but somewhere in the future this needs to be disallowed. Because this logic you use makes no sense. It needs to be used as a race car simulator, not a shitty button pressing race. I am speaking only about BC here... I don't care about anything else that can be reprocuded in real life. If there is no unrealistic option, people won't have unrealistic WRs. My 2c...

[scipy]

You're wrong...

No, I'm not. I wasn't stating a fact, I just wrote an opinion (even wrote imo). Button is available for a reason, as some people don't have a clutch pedal but want to do all of the driving on their own etc.. it's just a side effect that it can be pressed faster than autoclutch (and this is only because a few years ago button control rate was increased from 5 or 6 to 10). Banning something just cause it opens a possibility of making even people with clutch pedals faster isn't fair to the other people, this is why I said if it bothers the hotlappers so much.. just re-take the WR with BC. No one will think less of them.

[Squelch]

I for one would think less, and its not fair to believe that everyone else wouldn't be bothered either. Using your logic means that the 2-3 seconds I'm off a world record is not only because I'm slower, but I'm not using any cheats too. Frankly I'm surprised and shocked that you condone what amounts to cheating. Before we had a clutch temp/wear, it was possible to gain an unfair speed increase by letting the engine over rev between shifts. Was this ok too?

The subject was brought up here because there are concerns about it, and this was the first opportunity to talk about it without accusing anyone else directly.

[AutoPilot]

No, I'm not. I wasn't stating a fact, I just wrote an opinion (even wrote imo). Button is available for a reason, as some people don't have a clutch pedal but want to do all of the driving on their own etc.. it's just a side effect that it can be pressed faster than autoclutch (and this is only because a few years ago button control rate was increased from 5 or 6 to 10). Banning something just cause it opens a possibility of making even people with clutch pedals faster isn't fair to the other people, You're talking about manually pressing a button. I can concur to some level that it's ok. But using a 3rd party program to create and tweak macros coupled with LFS settings so that you can shift faster than not just AC, but any human with manually using BC, is where the line is crossed IMO. And there's no additional effort with macros, you drive in the exact same way as with AC.

just re-take the WR with BC. No one will think less of them. Great. Because I've done it a couple times... :shy:

It should still be fixed from LFS. It used to be that you could drive through barriers on BL GP as well as through pits, and easily cut ~1s off your lap. I could use the same argument that it was open to everyone, but it was still fixed because it just isn't right. Maybe this will too if we complain enough :P

[scipy]

Before we had a clutch temp/wear, it was possible to gain an unfair speed increase by letting the engine over rev between shifts. Was this ok too?

Clutch heating model doesn't stop you from flatshifting.. and yes, it's still ok. In fact, it's usually only the people who never even saw a properly dimensioned and designed race car that think not-lifting-on-upshifts will break EVERYTHING in a car.

To respond to profiler questions and tweaks, again.. it's available to everyone. If someone is beating you ONLY because of using a macro clutch, it takes 2 minutes to set up the same and have your glory day back again.

In fact, why is it ok to drive with an autoclutch? Which regular road car (other than SMG transmissions) uses a single dry clutch on every upshift and operates it independently? Is it just because it levels the playing field? If so, you know the playing field isn't all that level in real life. People look for advantages everywhere, and it's usually the ones that are too stupid to find some that end up complaining how someone else has something with arguments of "unfair" etc.

Imo, I can't wait for the day when a driving simulation would support direct import of car models from CATIA or even more complex software packages that deal with FEM, and the stupid/lazy people are left behind to argue on forums about how it's so unfair that someone else is beating them with x tenths a lap.

[Squelch]

Clutch heating model doesn't stop you from flatshifting.. and yes, it's still ok. In fact, it's usually only the people who never even saw a properly dimensioned and designed race car that think not-lifting-on-upshifts will break EVERYTHING in a car.Ok it was late and I should have qualified that remark. I meant flatshifting on road cars gave an advantage before the clutch overheating model. Race spec cars have never been in question.

To respond to profiler questions and tweaks, again.. it's available to everyone. If someone is beating you ONLY because of using a macro clutch, it takes 2 minutes to set up the same and have your glory day back again.

In fact, why is it ok to drive with an autoclutch? Which regular road car (other than SMG transmissions) uses a single dry clutch on every upshift and operates it independently? Is it just because it levels the playing field? If so, you know the playing field isn't all that level in real life. People look for advantages everywhere, and it's usually the ones that are too stupid to find some that end up complaining how someone else has something with arguments of "unfair" etc.Because an exploit is available to everyone does not make it right. Autoclutch and automatic shift take a finite time to do, and I believe Scawen modelled them this way for a reason. Bypassing the clutch timing via a macro or script is exploiting an oversight he made, and makes a mockery of the "prefect environment" that is supposed to be in place for fair hotlapping.

There is a method that would enable the "perfect hotlap", but this would simply be the ultimate cheat, and I won't even bother to try and expand on it for fear that someone might actually try it. This method is also available to all, and really does go against the spirit of what hotlapping is all about.

Imo, I can't wait for the day when a driving simulation would support direct import of car models from CATIA or even more complex software packages that deal with FEM, and the stupid/lazy people are left behind to argue on forums about how it's so unfair that someone else is beating them with x tenths a lap.I agree with you on a more complex model import, but we have what we have, and we all rely on Scawen to refine it.

My understanding of hotlapping is to compare human against human. I'm always exploring different setups and driving styles to gain those tenths in the knowledge it is my failings that make me slow. To find out that those tenths, or any number thereof, have been gained through exploits does mean it's unfair, and could make someone question if they should even bother trying. Does that make me and others lazy or stupid because we refuse to use cheats? I think you are now just being rude

[Nilex]

Hey i have a crazy idea, let's stick to original theme;
Thank you all for the feedback and discussions. I think it is all done now, which is good because I have a few more things to do before the incompatible test patch can be released - I do expect that to be this week. Please do try out the hotlapping changes when the test patch is released, to make sure the system is well tested before the official patch.

After two days, this is the point we have arrived at...

Tyres section in garage - settings for tyre warmer temperatures
You can load a layout in hotlap mode (may include start position)
NOTE : LFS World hotlaps may include start position - not objects
Hotlapping is possible on open configurations (not for LFS World)
Reliable detection of wall side impacts (e.g. at South City)
Pit stops are no longer available in Hotlapping mode
and leave the rest for the right time & place.
I know we all feel that we're helping, but we're actually making it worse. Wait for it. Step by step. Be patient.

Let's test our own suggestions/reports when they arrive, ok? (yeah, that's a fukin retorical 1)

[Squelch]

Agreed, and my apologies to all for running off topic. :shy:

[mbt_dj]

I have been tested this clutch "exploit" in many different situations. Fact is you can definitely accelerate faster with manual-clutch...

I take two screenshots from different "clutch systems"

- Track: autocross
- only accelerate on straight without steering
- same shifting-times
- repeated several times to ensure
- show the topspeed @ end of the track:

[scipy]

Ok it was late and I should have qualified that remark. I meant flatshifting on road cars gave an advantage before the clutch overheating model. Race spec cars have never been in question.

Again.. you can still flatshift in nearly all road cars in LFS and keep the clutch below red temperatures. Didn't you watch any recent replay of a hotlap?

[Squelch]

The last I'll say on the matter here I promise.
[Off Topic]
Again.. you can still flatshift in nearly all road cars in LFS and keep the clutch below red temperatures. Didn't you watch any recent replay of a hotlap?
Gear change timing also changed.

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse, ill-mannered, or plain arrogant. I did a bit of searching of the forums, and found your name linked to other unsavoury practises, so no wonder you defend this behaviour.

Forgive me for being out of touch, but what exactly is the button clutch exploit? Please only reply if you really know exactly what it is, not a vague idea.
This thread from 2008 discusses the problem, and I'm sure it was discussed way back on RSC, but internet archive wasn't able to capture those pages.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=45980

[/Off Topic]

[scipy]

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse, ill-mannered, or plain arrogant.

Good trigonometry joke there! Imo, if anyone is being obtuse it's people who get things wrong post after post.. kinda like you do. Referencing things that supposedly stopped something from being an advantage when they did next to nothing about the "problem". I find that very annoying and plain ignorant.

As far as my manners go, if you really had a search through some of my previous posts, you would've noticed that the manner in which these posts were written is a drastic improvement in ways of how I've used to treat people like you.

[word.]

I tried button clutch for the first time yesterday and instantly wiped 0.2s off my BL1 XFG PB, its way faster and needs to be fixed.

The clutch right now is unrealistic. You can shift faster than would be possible in a normal road car with a standard clutch.

I have thought of a solution, though I don't know how easy it would be to implement: The clutch should have a maximum bite pressure, just like a real clutch and if you exceed that it will just slip. Therefore no matter how fast you engage or disengage the clutch, shifting will be limited by the clutch itself not the button rate.... No more unrealistically fast shifting.

[jasonmatthews]

Here is the post explaining how to do it - http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=866988#post866988

Simple fix would be to make autoclutch quicker ;)

[Seb66]

Here is the post explaining how to do it - http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=866988#post866988

Simple fix would be to make autoclutch quicker ;)

read the thread first ;) http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1598651#post1598651

[Squelch]

Good trigonometry joke there! Imo, if anyone is being obtuse it's people who get things wrong post after post.. kinda like you do. Referencing things that supposedly stopped something from being an advantage when they did next to nothing about the "problem". I find that very annoying and plain ignorant.

As far as my manners go, if you really had a search through some of my previous posts, you would've noticed that the manner in which these posts were written is a drastic improvement in ways of how I've used to treat people like you.My friend let me spell it out.

Obtuse: The over revving before the clutch model was introduced, allowed a speed increase without absolutely no penalty. This was done while the gears were neutral, and was a win/win situation. The clutch model fixed it somewhat, and prevented the speed increase. I know you know this, and you still remain obstinate.

Ill-mannered: Your treatment of some forum members is frankly appalling. Treatment of AudiTT earlier in this thread is one such example of your insensitivity. Yes he was off the mark, but English is not his first language, and he relies on translation software to read these forums.

Arrogant: Your ego leads you to believe I read your past posts. You're wrong. I was researching the clutch-button exploit, and came across your name in relation to cheating, that's all. You seem to believe your opinion is correct at all times, and I haven't come across a single instance where you admit to being incorrect - and no I haven't searched.

Let me stroke that ego of yours. Some of your posts are insightful, knowledgeable, and useful. If you could only respond in a similar way as this you might find you don't rub people up the wrong way.
Imo, the only things to fix in LFS transmission modeling are:

1. Proper ignition cut. The way Scawen has currently coded it is wrong and slow, the ignition cut doesn't mean killing the ignition of the whole engine (and I'm pretty sure it does just that, although then turbo boost would be dependant only on throttle pedal position). In real life it's enough to cut the ignition on only 2-3 cylinders of the 6 or 8 cylinders in the engine, just enough to unload the transmission and enable the dogs to catch next gear. This is why XRR is still slower than FZR in accelerations, too much time lost with the current ignition cut (it'd be much faster to just give it the regular lift-type sequential, and yes, it would outweigh any disadvantages of losing some boost for a split second).

2. Having the option of autoclutch only on downshifts in cars with sequential gearboxes (ign. cut and regular), because that's how shifting is done in 98 % of the cases of dog-boxes in real life, making it a lot easier to blip the throttle (without chancing a miss-shift or riding the throttle as many idiots do).

3. Gearbox damage. Stresses on gear teeth and dog rings can be calculated pretty easily and a wear model could be introduced, this would be especially handy in endurance racing and it would force people to learn how to take care of their cars (and not skip blipping the throttle).

4. Clutch heating/wearing model re-done. Currently you can still flatshift in a 500 hp car during the whole 1-hour stint and not have your clutch temp go into the red area, and this is ok, racing clutches made of C/SiC don't really care about being slipped or their temperature, but what they do care about is being constantly stressed with impulses during flatshifts (and not only the clutch, but the whole drivetrain). This is another area where a vibration/stress model would be benefitial (especially for flatshifting in road cars).

5. As yaper said above, dog H boxes on racy slower cars (FWD GTR, FZR). Maybe even a DSG transmission for the never-coming Scirocco.
Your post back then infers that the whole drive train needs refinement, and gearbox inertia is one of those refinements which could be made. I thouroghly agree with those observations. There is currently no requirement to double clutch a dog (crash) gearbox with the current model, and similarly synchronous gearboxes do not need the finite time they do in real life to come up to speed where the gears rotations are drastically different. The ultra fast clutch that the exploit enables, bypasses any chance of a missed gear, and making autoclutch quicker is not the solution imo.

Can we please agree to disagree on some matters, and not get personal?

[scipy]

My friend let me spell it out.

Listen flower, I understand english references well enough to know that obtuse means ur calling me thick/stupid/slow/<insert synonym>.

As far as clutching goes, it makes no ****ing difference weather gears are in neutral, in lower gear or next (higher) gear if the clutch is depressed, since rpm climbs because you're keeping the foot on the throttle. Your thinking on longitudinal G increases because engine picked up some revs and was being pulled back by the clutch on re-engagement also shows a lack of testing and knowledge on your part. While this is true to some extent, the amount of slip that was occurring even before the slip had any affect on temperature wasn't in the optimum range for acceleration. In fact, a much better result is gained when the engine bounces off the revlimiter quickly and is re-engaged with the clutch with less slip - especially since the main advantage of buttonclutch is removal of the full engagement clutch period.

As far as autoclutching goes, just because there are revlimiters in place now and shift lights have been removed from road cars it does not mean you shift at the limiter. In fact you shift at old shift points and engines in road cars still gains a few hundred rpm before being pulled back by the clutch.

Fact is, clutch heating model had little to no effect on making people stop flatshifting. I do appreciate that idiots are punished if they keep the throttle on after a spin going backwards in 3rd gear, or trying to start in said gear.

Ill-mannered: Your treatment of some forum members is frankly appalling. Treatment of AudiTT earlier in this thread is one such example of your insensitivity. Yes he was off the mark, but English is not his first language, and he relies on translation software to read these forums.

Flower please, at least find someone worth fighting for if you're gonna stand in defense of idiocy. His language skills were not the problem, it's the fact that every post of his was pure SPAM and no help to anyone that bothered me. I even ignored him for an amount of time that is simply unbelievable by my standards. Other people having to correct his wrong ideas/opinions/suggestions don't help your case at all.

My treatment of people have been increasingly more and more positive, but I do sometimes regress back to my old self. Don't be stupid and you won't have any problems with me. (Let me clarify, if you don't know something and you ask politely for an explanation, I'm the first one to respond with an answer in a positive way, or even recommend literature if you want to know more. BUT, if you are an ignorant arrogant twat who just writes things because they make sense to you but have no basis in reality - then I will insult you to the extent that you might think next time it's just better to not say anything).

Arrogant: Your ego leads you to believe I read your past posts. You're wrong. I was researching the clutch-button exploit, and came across your name in relation to cheating, that's all. You seem to believe your opinion is correct at all times, and I haven't come across a single instance where you admit to being incorrect - and no I haven't searched.

It's not my ego that leads me to believe anything, I just happen to be right more of the time. It's your lack of research skills that is impressive, for now you are basically wrong on almost all counts you tried to adress.

Let me stroke that ego of yours. Some of your posts are insightful, knowledgeable, and useful. If you could only respond in a similar way as this you might find you don't rub people up the wrong way.

While you might mistake this forum for a congeniality contest, I don't. Stupidity is annoying, I respond to it how I like. I might be the most hated person on LFS forum (and enjoy that status a lot), but whenever your protectees find themselves stuck, even after all the insults dealt directly to them, they come crawling to me for help.

Your post back then infers that the whole drive train needs refinement, and gearbox inertia is one of those refinements which could be made. I thouroghly agree with those observations.

Of course you do, because I'm right. Unlike most of the things you've written.

The ultra fast clutch that the exploit enables, bypasses any chance of a missed gear, and making autoclutch quicker is not the solution imo.

Wrong again.. If you had done any proper testing you would've found timing values where shifts simply stop happening.

Can we please agree to disagree on some matters, and not get personal?

Yep, I disagree with you on everything you are wrong about and agree on the things I've said. As far as being personal, you're the one calling people obtuse, ill-mannered and other adjectives, I on the other hand, enjoy arguing because it brings me great pleasure to point out where other people are being stupid or just wrong. However, since it's currently midterms time and I have only slightly better things to do, this is unfortunately my last post to you.

[Squelch]

In the spirit of congeniality, I genuinely wish you good luck with your mid terms.

[Neilser]

Listen flower, I understand english references well enough to know that obtuse means ur calling me thick/stupid/slow/<insert synonym>.

As far as clutching goes, it makes no ****ing difference weather gears are in neutral, in lower gear or next (higher) gear if the clutch is depressed, since rpm climbs because you're keeping the foot on the throttle. Your thinking on longitudinal G increases because engine picked up some revs and was being pulled back by the clutch on re-engagement also shows a lack of testing and knowledge on your part. While this is true to some extent, the amount of slip that was occurring even before the slip had any affect on temperature wasn't in the optimum range for acceleration. In fact, a much better result is gained when the engine bounces off the revlimiter quickly and is re-engaged with the clutch with less slip - especially since the main advantage of buttonclutch is removal of the full engagement clutch period.

Personally I interpreted his phrase "deliberately obtuse" to mean something entirely different to stupid - more like someone who understands the point perfectly well but holds a different opinion and is determined to feign lack of understanding of the point... A dictionary will let you down on some things; this is one of them.

But back to the actual subject:
Reading this I'm reminded that while hotlapping in an FBM I saw something perverse last year. I hate hate hate lifting in that damn car, so I compared laps in which I used a wheel button mapped to clutch for upshifts against laps where I lifted (and against other LFSW laps where people lifted, using Victor's online analyser). Much to my surprise, the laps where I lifted were quicker - less speed lost on the shifts. I didn't bugger about with a macro or changing button rates so maybe a slow clutch response was the main problem. (This makes what I did rather different to "button clutch" I guess.)
But I had fully expected the clutched shifts to be "quicker" overall. My reasoning was that the engine power was being converted into excess engine speed for just about the whole clutching duration (at least when I didn't hit the limiter) and then, when the clutch was released, some decent fraction of that excess energy should have been converted promptly back into extra vehicle speed via increased torque to the wheels. (I reckon the actual energy split between clutch heating and extra speed would depend on the torque carried by the clutch while slipping - I never got around to attempting to estimate that, but I guess it could be estimated pretty accurately from the replay by using the time taken for the revs to drop back.)[Damn, no, this is crap; the wasted energy (i.e. clutch heating) is purely related to the excess speed ratio; ignore the bit in italics! :) I am also of course entirely ignoring the variation of engine torque with speed which may be another dumb mistake...]
Aaaanyway, clearly this wasn't the case. So I assumed that either it was cos my clutch was slower (disengaged engine for much longer) than the lift, OR cos the LFS physics isn't being very faithful to reality in this case.
But Scipy seems to be suggesting here that accurate physics wouldn't produce the result I expected, in which case I'm puzzled and would like to know more - e.g. pointer to a post in which this is explained better?

[scipy]

FBM has a motorcycle gearbox, a so called dog-engagement. It's the fastest type of gearbox available (not that's it's easy on the transmission, but it is fastest), google some more about it and it'll be clear to you why clutching with a dog-box is a bad idea.

Short story, when you lift 50 % of the power is still being transmitted to the wheels during the shift because only a small unloading of the transmission is needed for next gear dogs to engage the gear into action. No matter how fast you clutch (and if clutching is let's say BF1 speed or even faster) there is still a complete separation of engine from the gearbox where no power is being transmitted, and on the other hand the period is so small that no significant engine acceleration can be made to give you that little "jerk" on re-engagement.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=72359

[Neilser]

...when you lift 50 % of the power is still being transmitted to the wheels during the shift because only a small unloading of the transmission is needed
Ah, that's probably the key bit of missing info, ta :)

All the same, am still a wee bit puzzled about the "energy accounting" here. In the "quick 50% lift" case, the engine power output is reduced momentarily, but a negligible amount of that power goes to waste during the change. When the clutch is used, the engine+flywheel soaks up all of the (almost unchanging) engine power while the wheels aren't getting it, and if the engine speed hasn't risen much before the clutch is dropped again then the energy wasted in clutch heating should be "very small" (for some value of "very small"). So, hmm.....

[scipy]

There is no power to speak of if something isn't using it on the other end. When you rev the engine to 8500 rpm in neutral, it makes no significant power. It's better to have 50 % being used than having none during clutch full engagement period.

[AutoPilot]

Hey i have a crazy idea, let's stick to original theme;

and leave the rest for the right time & place.
I know we all feel that we're helping, but we're actually making it worse. Wait for it. Step by step. Be patient. The original theme seems settled, and Scawen explicitly asked about button clutch issue. So why exactly is here and now not the right place/time to provide an opinion about it?

[Neilser]

There is no power to speak of if something isn't using it on the other end. When you rev the engine to 8500 rpm in neutral, it makes no significant power. It's better to have 50 % being used than having none during clutch full engagement period.
Eh? When the throttle's fully open at high rpm and you disengage the clutch, the engine is still producing full power unless you cut fuel or ignition. The power just goes into (rapidly) increasing the engine speed. It's still real power. And if you can at least partially convert it back into road speed it's also useful real power.

[scipy]

Eh? When the throttle's fully open at high rpm and you disengage the clutch, the engine is still producing full power unless you cut fuel or ignition. The power just goes into (rapidly) increasing the engine speed. It's still real power. And if you can at least partially convert it back into road speed it's also useful real power.

Sry, don't wanna be dismissive but I'm not getting into energy/work/power discussion with you unless you are willing to go through thermodynamics 1 & 2, internal combustion engines intro and ICE construction first.

[DarknessPainF1]

Pit stops are no longer available in Hotlapping mode Umm, many oval wr's has pit stops? :|

[Neilser]

Sry, don't wanna be dismissive but I'm not getting into energy/work/power discussion with you unless you are willing to go through thermodynamics 1 & 2, internal combustion engines intro and ICE construction first.
Luckily enough I'm a physicist so feel free to get techy when explaining. (Quite familiar with thermodynamics and engines.)

[scipy]

Then how is it unclear to you what I've said 2 posts ago? If you have an engine revving in neutral it's only going to produce enough power to cover it's inertia/friction/pumping losses. It is not making xyz hp @ 8000 rpm when you floor it in neutral - only when you try and stop it (like connect a resistance to it, then it'll be producing power - and only enough power to overcome that resistance, still not the full power).

If we're talking about a normal syncro gearbox with a manual clutch, like any older road car has, then I agree: since you have to clutch anyway, you will get an acceleration boost if you flatshift (clutching speed same in flatshift and non flatshift). But this has nearly nothing to do with engine inertia.. As you said in your post, power "rapidly" goes into increasing rpm but it's not using anywhere near "maximum" power (meaning power it has at those rpm when on the dyno or accelerating the car and overcoming air resistance, rolling friction, inertia etc).

In fact, if you payed attention when driving a real car you could notice that even when you shift normally (lift off throttle, clutch in, cluctch out, throttle back on) but trying to make it a pretty quick shift, you will still get a little boost from the engine inertia. This is because engine just isn't capable of decelerating fast enough (even when off throttle) to cover the 1500 or so rpm difference between the two gears. If you relied only on engine inertia to give you a boost (as you've said in your first post that your reasoning was that during the whole clutch period engine power was being converted into excess engine speed and this would in turn be converted back to acceleration on re-engagement), you would get only a differentially small increase in inertia that builds up from say 7000 where you shift to 7500 rpm where the hard limiter is, but > 90 % of the acceleration will come from simply engine meeting back with a resistance and trying to stay at the same rpm - starting to produce useful work.

Problem is that you took the FBM as an example.. where the limiter and the shift point are one and the same, so when you clutched on your flatshift.. where can the engine accelerate to? It will just keep bouncing off the revlimiter. The only thing that gives you the acceleration boost is when the clutch meets back with the engine, and in this case there was some positive slippage of the clutch that got converted back to acceleration but it's NOTHING compared to acceleration loss you've experienced during the period when the engine wasn't connected to the wheels.

Scawen modeled these transmissions correctly (as far as power/work/acceleration goes), there is no way you can gain acceleration by disconnecting the engine from the wheels and relying on increased rpm and subsequent slippage on re-engagement, over the dog-engagement gearbox. No matter if if the shift point was 6000 rpm or 9000. Well, it matters a bit because at 6000 rpm the sequential will eat you alive (because clutching there while holding the throttle on will mean that you have a good 4000 rpm for the engine to fight back against the clutch and slip it all to hell).

I think your main problem is not understanding how a dog-engagement gearbox really works. The shifts are very violent, in fact, more violent than a flatshift with a clutch.. but power delivery is nearly uninterrupted (in reality it is uninterrupted, the car will never go into opposite longitudinal G while accelerating), the components are very stressed but they're designed to survive.

[Mysho]

Umm, many oval wr's has pit stops? :|

Yes, that's gonna not happen anymore, luckily. May the real time appear in that LFSW chart...

[Neilser]

Then how is it unclear to you what I've said 2 posts ago?You were quite clear, but just wrong :razz:
That's IMHO of course. Read on and I'll justify that.

If you have an engine revving in neutral it's only going to produce enough power to cover it's inertia/friction/pumping losses. It is not making xyz hp @ 8000 rpm when you floor it in neutral - only when you try and stop it (like connect a resistance to it, then it'll be producing power - and only enough power to overcome that resistance, still not the full power).I have no idea why you think that. I've just done some tests to verify that it isn't true in LFS. I don't believe it to be true in real cars either, but of course the engine management system *could* decide to reduce power when in neutral (my car's ECU doesn't even know that though) or if it spots the revs climbing very rapidly. One thing I did observe is that the FBM torque reduces dramatically quite a long way below the actual limiting rpm value when IN a gear (more than I'd expected) and even further below when the clutch is pressed (that's a bit weird and maybe fake?). I thought this was the reason for my original observation but it wasn't - explained below.

...power "rapidly" goes into increasing rpm but it's not using anywhere near "maximum" power (meaning power it has at those rpm when on the dyno or accelerating the car and overcoming air resistance, rolling friction, inertia etc).This assertion really confuses me. I think you'll agree it's wrong when I explain the test results.

In fact, if you payed attention when driving a real car you could notice that even when you shift normally (lift off throttle, clutch in, cluctch out, throttle back on) but trying to make it a pretty quick shift, you will still get a little boost from the engine inertia.
Yeah, have (of course) noticed that. Every 17 year old probably finds that out when first allowed out alone :)
Problem is that you took the FBM as an example.. where the limiter and the shift point are one and the same, so when you clutched on your flatshift.. where can the engine accelerate to? It will just keep bouncing off the revlimiter. Yeah, I thought this might have been the problem all along. I had been aware of the limiter of course when I did the hotlaps last year, and thought I wasn't hitting it. But now I see the torque (clutch down) drops way below the limiter... However, that still wasn't it.
Scawen modeled these transmissions correctly (as far as power/work/acceleration goes), there is no way you can gain acceleration by disconnecting the engine from the wheels and relying on increased rpm and subsequent slippage on re-engagement, over the dog-engagement gearbox. This is exactly what I think my results below prove to be true in fact. Doesn't mean you'd want to do it in a long race of course. Or in the FBM as it goes.
I think your main problem is not understanding how a dog-engagement gearbox really works. The shifts are very violent, in fact, more violent than a flatshift with a clutch.. but power delivery is nearly uninterrupted (in reality it is uninterrupted, the car will never go into opposite longitudinal G while accelerating), the components are very stressed but they're designed to survive.They sound like a cool idea if a bit brutal. I guess the tyres and engine mounts take up most of the (brief) strain? Maybe the engines get torn off the mounts now and then? :)

Now the results to support my slanderous allegation that the one and only scipy has made a mistake ;)
Today I did some acceleration tests on the drag strip in an FBM. Lots of 'em. More than it's fair or sensible to report in this thread so I'll be concise. (Need a new thread for more detail if anyone's masochist enough to care.)

The upshot: when changing some way below the redline (even as high as 8500) the time taken to accelerate to any given speed is significantly SHORTER with the clutched change than with the quick lift. Even when changing more or less at the redline (I was shooting for 9000) I only managed one run in which the quick lift got to a higher speed earlier than the clutched change; in the other runs that clutched change was marginally quicker. (My button rate has been set to 10 for this lot of tests btw.)

As you mentioned, the shift point being so close to the redline in the FBM means that it's a poor candidate for this, but perhaps the MRT has the same box? (And an amazingly high redline :))

As a result of all of this, I now believe I understand my original problem btw: while the total time to accelerate to any given speed in the FBM when changing at roughly the redline may be just about identical whether you lift or use the clutch, the speed vs. time graph when clutching shows a slight drop and then a very rapid recovery - very brief deceleration while clutch down, then extra acceleration when it's released, "catching" up on the speed achieved by a "quick lift" change. But that means (by integrating the speed vs. time graph) that the distance covered in the clutched case is slightly smaller. D'oh! Quicker to get to a given speed need not mean quicker to cover a given distance...
(Apologies for length :x)

[scipy]

bzzz

This is silly. Add me on MSN and be educated.

[Scawen]

FBM has a motorcycle gearbox, a so called dog-engagement.It's not actually a motorcycle gearbox, it is a Hewland sequential gearbox, purpose built for racing cars, derived from Formula 3.

http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/cars/formula_bmw_fb02

Though the sequential gearbox itself works just like a bike gearbox, so it doesn't affect the point you were making. I'm just pointing this out so no-one thinks it uses an actual bike gearbox.

I once thought that the Formula BMW would use the gearbox that normally comes with that motorbike engine it has, but I guess it's not suitable for various reasons.

- The racing car gearbox has the differential inside the unit and includes a reverse gear.

- The bike gearbox has no differential or reverse gear.

(The MRT5 really does have a motorcycle gearbox, and the differential is chain driven).

[scipy]

Yep, I was thinking of dog engagement sequentials, first thing that came to mind was a motorcycle. Should've chosen my words a bit more carefully :) But as Scawen said, doesn't change the point.

Although, Scawen, while we're on the topic of sequentials.. for one of the non-compatible patches in the future (especially one where you'll be doing GTR class rebalancing again) a good idea would be a true ignition cut sequential that kills ignition on half of the cylinders because the current ignition cut gearbox is slower in acceleration than a regular H-type with clutch of the FZR.

[[Audi TT]]

Scawen, better to do for each wheel is heated. One moment is when different drive car, the second time is when different slicks, the third time is when the track forward and reverse. In direct heat is bad left wheel, the reverse is bad hot right wheel.

Have a look at the first repeat([Audi TT]_SO2R_FXR_04675.spr) there I did not warm up tires and see the second repeat([Audi TT]_SO2R_FXR_04649.spr) where I warm up the non-heated side.

[Mysho]

;1600982']Scawen, better to do for each wheel is heated. One moment is when different drive car, the second time is when different slicks, the third time is when the track forward and reverse. In direct heat is bad left wheel, the reverse is bad hot right wheel.

Have a look at the first repeat([Audi TT]_SO2R_FXR_04675.spr) there I did not warm up tires and see the second repeat([Audi TT]_SO2R_FXR_04649.spr) where I warm up the non-heated side.

I don't quite get what you are saying. Are you suggesting to put that feature of heating tyres on each tyre? If so, why would that be? I don't think that is necessary at the moment.

[Neilser]

This is silly. Add me on MSN and be educated.Kind offer dude :) but sadly I'm not an MSN user... No matter - having figured out what was bothering me, I'm done. You may continue to believe a freely revving engine with fully open throttle is not delivering full power if you wish, no skin off my nose :thumb:

[[Audi TT]]

I don't quite get what you are saying. Are you suggesting to put that feature of heating tyres on each tyre? If so, why would that be? I don't think that is necessary at the moment.
yes
The reason:
1)Different slick, for example: r3-r2
2)drive type cars
3)Track direction

[scipy]

I don't quite get what you are saying. Are you suggesting to put that feature of heating tyres on each tyre? If so, why would that be? I don't think that is necessary at the moment.

I think he's trying to say that in some specific cases (like SO4 and whatnot) left side tires are colder than right side ones, same with rear to front so he's suggesting individual tire warmers for each tire and not only front axle/rear axle. I don't think it's necessary either.

[[Audi TT]]

I think he's trying to say that in some specific cases (like SO4 and whatnot) left side tires are colder than right side ones, same with rear to front so he's suggesting individual tire warmers for each tire and not only front axle/rear axle.

Thank you, all right.

[[Audi TT]]

already dizzy from the warm-up tires xD http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=78639
Waiting for a patch on Friday it.

[Squelch]

Nice time, but be careful of the walls. The new patch will detect the ones you hit hard.

[[Audi TT]]

Nice time, but be careful of the walls. The new patch will detect the ones you hit hard.

Thank you. I know. I try not to do so.

[Flame CZE]

It will be interesting to see how much better the times will be with higher temperature set... e.g. on Oval with single-seaters.

[[Audi TT]]

WR improve 100%

[kart-36]

Im just wondering if this could be done...
Can we make it so that the times are to 3 decimal places?
On oval there is always people with the same times eg: 46.02
Would be better if it could be made so 46.025 or smthing like that.

Also it would work in public races. I was in a race yesturday and in qualy there was like 6 people with the same time.

[Flame CZE]

That would be a great improvement to the game indeed but I doubt it can be done easily, just my opinion.

[Whiskey]

You'll need to speed LFS physics loop 10 times to get that. Otherwise, you'll get faked (rounded, aproximated) times, which is what many games do.

[Flame CZE]

This is quite interesting though, Bob Smith posted this some time ago:


'02-'08 Live For Speed - 100 Hz (collision detection) / 2000 Hz (vehicle dynamics) [posted by Scawen on lfsforum][/url]

[Neilser]

You'll need to speed LFS physics loop 10 times to get that. Otherwise, you'll get faked (rounded, aproximated) times, which is what many games do.
Actually I disagree.

While the physics loop frequency may be 100 Hz (or any other value; it's not important) it's always possible to interpolate between the positions that straddle any given checkpoint and thus produce a timestamp with higher precision.

(Edit: perhaps I should add that there's nothing at all fake about this. It's actually *less* fake than using the timestamp of the first position update which is beyond the checkpoint. That may not be what LFS does of course - I don't know.)

[[Audi TT]]

Scawen, HLVC works badly on the track WE1, in the section of the s-curve - HLVC ignores o_O
Look replay