Racing Rules!

[SchneeFee]

Guys, i need your advice:
Me and a friend are preparing an austrian racing league, and i was introducing some racing rulez. One of those rules is "not to change line more than 1 time per straight." and therefore not to block the one behind you, even if he is trying to pass you.
Immediatly there was some protest in the Forum - like stupid rule - ist for softies - etc...

No, OMHO this rule is taken straight out of IRL Racing, and i think its a good rule.
Pls tell me what u think
thx
SF:D

[avih]

check out the CRC rules as a start. IMHO, they're good enough. Or, you might wanna go with the BTCC style racing. check out the forum.

[SchneeFee]

CRC is dead IMHO.
I wanted to hear the opinion of some racers. No need to check out some Forum, bcos i know this rule comes from Real Life Racing :)

[bobvanvliet]

The CRC is pretty much alive I think. But that's not really the point.

I think 1 move off your line and 1 move to get back every straight is a better option, this way you can block a slightly faster driver, but if someone has lik 5 kph more top speed than you, you've got to let him by the second time.

So back and forth once every straight.

[SchneeFee]

The CRC is pretty much alive I think. But that's not really the point.

I think 1 move off your line and 1 move to get back every straight is a better option, this way you can block a slightly faster driver, but if someone has lik 5 kph more top speed than you, you've got to let him by the second time.

So back and forth once every straight.

yes, this was actually what i meant. I just dont want people to cross the line as many times as they want.

[ColeusRattus]

I do not think that such a rule is working well with online play. It demands quite a lot of discipline by the drivers and needs quite a lot of control to work. You would literally have to spectate every single overtaking (or, depending how strict you bare, every single driver on every single straight).

I'd rather have a rule that says: "Blocking other drivers on purpose is forbidden. If you happen to be the victim or wittness of such a incident, drop a message at (anyone@anywhere.at) with a brief description, including the accused driver and the lap in which the blocking happened. Our racing commitee will look at every single case individually and will, if the accuse is proven true, state penalties like dedaction of points or even a temporary ban."

So you would only be bothered when someone really would be blocked, instead of surveilling all the racers...

BTW, wo trifft sich die österreichische überhaupt? Werde nächste Woche bezahlt, und hab dann spätestens übernächste Woche meine S2-Lizenz :D

[bobvanvliet]

I'd rather have a rule that says: "Blocking other drivers on purpose is forbidden. If you happen to be the victim or wittness of such a incident, drop a message at (anyone@anywhere.at) with a brief description, including the accused driver and the lap in which the blocking happened. Our racing commitee will look at every single case individually and will, if the accuse is proven true, state penalties like dedaction of points or even a temporary ban."

So you would only be bothered when someone really would be blocked, instead of surveilling all the racers...

If you make up rules, you can hopefully count on league participants to comply... And whatever the rule is, your system for disputes would work for all of them.

And banning all blocking seems a bit excessive cause you should be able to block someone trying to overtake you, the purpose of a blocking rule is just to prevent people from swerving left to right repeatedly and causing dangerous and frustrating situatuations.

[SchneeFee]

the point is that good racing does take a lot of discipline indeed - and people dont have any diszipline at all - well most of them. Just check out all the "wreckers" threads in the Forum - all due to lack of discipline.

[SchneeFee]

cause you should be able to block someone trying to overtake you, the purpose of a blocking rule is just to prevent people from swerving left to right repeatedly and causing dangerous and frustrating situatuations.

u should not be able to Block at all - but what u can do is to force the faster driver on the outside line, and gain some advantage by that. Blocking would mean that i always change to the line the driver behind me is using., no matter how often.

[SniperZA]

Check out these rules - they work very well (obviously ignoring the NR2003 specific stuff) http://www.sarl.co.za/sagtps_rules.htm

As Scneefee says, when you are defending a position it does not make sense to swerve across the track to block, a far better defense is to go into the corner on a tighter line, forcing the guy behind to back off or try the long way round. If you happen to have made a mistake the previous corner and are slow on the straight rather let the guy through and start working out how to get back past him.


Chris.

[bobvanvliet]

A driver is allowed to move over ONCE to 'block' a pursuing driver, but may not then move over again if the driver attempting to pass changes his line in order to find another way past.

This is roughly what i meant... :thumb:

[DasBoeseC]

the point is that good racing does take a lot of discipline indeed - and people dont have any diszipline at all - well most of them. Just check out all the "wreckers" threads in the Forum - all due to lack of discipline.

*cough* Wreckers do not lack discipline....they lack COMMON SENSE! *cough*

People that participate in leagues usually behave well.....at least usually ;)

On the topic of this racing rule I personally think that this rule, which to my knowledge was foremost written for open wheelers, is not really good.
One of the best experiences in online racing that I have come across is being in a battle of two racers, one slower and one faster, that are playing the game of attack and block.
Any action which is dangerous or harsh should be punished, but changing the line more than once is, in itself, not dangerous.

.....but really, I am no league admin and I understand that strict rules like this may make the management of a racing series a tad easier :)

CU, Sebastian

Edit - Might be my understanding of 'blocking' is wrong though......

[Vykos69]

IMHO, you should be allowed to block as much as you want, as long as you dont force the overtaking guyof the track. But usually one move to one side is anyway the maximum you can do. Blocking belongs to racing, and in some shorter distance races it's needed. In a longrun, you can more easily give room. But I for myself love to be a "hard to overtake" guy. ;)

[sinbad]

You can be hard to pass without illegal blocking and the one-move rule is there for a reason. You cannot move to defend to inside and then move out and block the outside again too. Weaving side-to-side is not good racing, and would be considered dangerous.

[SchneeFee]

IMHO, you should be allowed to block as much as you want, as long as you dont force the overtaking guyof the track. But usually one move to one side is anyway the maximum you can do. Blocking belongs to racing, and in some shorter distance races it's needed. In a longrun, you can more easily give room. But I for myself love to be a "hard to overtake" guy. ;)

the border to being "unfair" is very very thin here. this increases the need of some rulez especially for league racing. On puplic server i dont care at all, i am just prepared for everything there :tilt: . But when doing a league i want clean fair racing - and if u leave this to the drivers - i wont work out well.

[SchneeFee]

You can be hard to pass without illegal blocking and the one-move rule is there for a reason. You cannot move to defend to inside and then move out and block the outside again too. Weaving side-to-side is not good racing, and would be considered dangerous.

:thumb:

[AndroidXP]

Oh, so we have enough active players here to actually make a league? cool :D

But yeah, I think CRC rules or the ones posted by SniperZA are the way to go here.

[CrazyICE]

IMHO, you should be allowed to block as much as you want, as long as you dont force the overtaking guyof the track. But usually one move to one side is anyway the maximum you can do. Blocking belongs to racing, and in some shorter distance races it's needed. In a longrun, you can more easily give room. But I for myself love to be a "hard to overtake" guy. ;)
i'm with you, but i someone is faster on the straight, always going from left to right and so IS UNFAIR.

but blocking someone by breaking earlier or more than needed is in my opinion ok...look at F1...
schumacher vs Alonso was an example (don't know what track it was)...
this is done by every racer...

but on the straight it's unfair...
ok, as long as he is behind you, it's ok...

i think this is a difficult thing, because there are so many ways to block, fair one and unfair one...
so i thing you have to show visually what is unfair and not allowed, case such thinks are very difficult to explain, but if you show examples visually (by replays or videos) i think everybody understand what u mean by unfair and fair (allowed, not allowed)...

btw: wenn ich zeit hab, fahr ich mit...

[Nard]

Hmmm, I don't know, I may be out of the competitive crowd, but if I see that a guy's been consistently lapping let's say 3-4 seconds faster than me, I'll definately let him pass and will only take my best line in curves. He'll be able to pass me on a straight anyway. When it gets in the 1-2 seconds range, I won't give room, but I won't go out of my way either.


It's easy to defend a position on a straight when you're in front. If you take the outside, the guy will run inside, and will have a far slower exit speed anyway, so I usually end up in front again aside if I made a braking error or something. if you take the inside, your early braking will have destabilized him, and you can capitalize on that.

Against drivers with really similar but slightly faster lap speeds, I was able to hold for laps without even blocking once on straights. The only thing I hate about that is how they put so much pressure on you. I usually hold for those laps then just drive myself off the track like a noob.

[mrodgers]

The problem with "unlimited" blocking I think is when someone is coming up on you and you move over to block, he is there. He either brakes to avoid ramming you or swings out around you. If you attempt a second block, he has momentum and would be there up beside you, so you will hit him and take him out. That is why there is a one block move rule. I don't block and don't believe in blocking, it leads to accidents with different experiences and lag. It would be better to let him go, slow down a bit more and get a better exit speed and repass him as you come off the turn. I just wish I was a better driver to do this. I usually let him go and watch him pull away.

[Hallen]

If someone takes a defensive line, that is fine. If someone does an inside out reverse on me and repassess me, wow, great move man! But if someone weaves in front of me, especially after I have caught a draft and have momentum, well once they will get away with, but more than that and they are going to get punted. Just a little nudge to destablize them in a turn with the intent to not wreck him or me. I don't like blocking especially if we are driving the same car. If we are in the same car, and I am consitently faster, then it is my responsibility to try and get past cleanly. If the other driver is erratic and intentionally blocking, well then they have shown that they have no regard for me or clean racing.

Now, having said all that, I have never actually done it. I said it to prove a point. But, if blocking does happen, I guarantee you it will happen. Maybe not by me, but someone will do it. That is why leagues usually have some type of policy on blocking to keep the mayham down to the minimum.

Driving different car types things get more complicated. For example, LX6 vs the FZ50. The LX6 will be faster in the corners and the FZ will be faster on the straights. This leads to the LX6 guy getting passed on all long straights, and the FZ driver getting passed in the corners. Lap after lap. The FZ will slow the LX6 down a lot, but the LX6 does not really slow the FZ down because it is pretty easy to pass with power on straights. It will get pretty frustrating, but as long as the drivers are not blocking... that's racing.
Pro leagues are a different thing. They race for real, real money, real life stuff. Blocking is dangerous and so is getting punted. If the league wants to draw a bigger, more ignorant croud, then they "let" drivers get away with more bumping and rubbing than really needs to be there. I would much prefer to watch a hard fought battle over several laps where both drivers never tough each other, but somehow, a pass is made. Sure, the leading driver will take a defensive line, but blocking is different.

[operator0]

I would much prefer to watch a hard fought battle over several laps where both drivers never tough each other, but somehow, a pass is made. Sure, the leading driver will take a defensive line, but blocking is different.

Ask and you shall receive :D. http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=681

[Gimpster]

The basic point is this, once someone is in the draft and pulls out to pass its already too late to block. I will make multiple line adjustments on a straight for one reason only, to break or prevent a draft. Once a draft has been caught its already too late to block safely. If someong intends to pass there really is nothing you can safely do to prevent it. Defensive driving and blocking are two different things and need to be addressed seperatly in my opinion.

[Batterypark]

Racing Rules!

I agree :D

[Hallen]

The basic point is this, once someone is in the draft and pulls out to pass its already too late to block. I will make multiple line adjustments on a straight for one reason only, to break or prevent a draft. Once a draft has been caught its already too late to block safely. If someong intends to pass there really is nothing you can safely do to prevent it. Defensive driving and blocking are two different things and need to be addressed seperatly in my opinion.

Absolutely.

You may be slow, or dyslexic. Check out your sig... :D

[Hallen]

Ask and you shall receive :D. http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=681

Finally got a chance to watch the race. Great Stuff! You two had a heck of a good battle there. Bet you were sweating a bit after that one :D
Too bad that back marker got in your way, would have been a bit closer at the end. But them's the breaks.

[Slartibartfast]

Limiting blocking manuevers is not a great answer as it can get in the way of dicing and leads to insane replay analysis by clerk of the course in case of an infraction.

In my GPL leagues I had a full damage/no protest rules in place. If there was some problem on the track, the drivers needed to work it out between themselves. This led to a really tight knit community of drivers who knew each other very well, and practiced maturity on and off the track. We practiced together prior to race day to learn each others tactics, and we all raced clean and hard. I have video of me and a guy I was used to driving with going 14 laps side by side almost every corner at Mid Ohio. That performance would not have held up to any rules, anywhere. We both agree it was our most exciting and fulfilling GPL race ever. The league had many dices at places like Rouen and the Ring. The mentality of the drivers on the whole led us to that.

The standing rule for acceptable driving was that if a COC reviewed a race and found you at fault, a replay and description of percieved infraction was sent with a one race suspended ban. Warning two led to the ban. Warning three led to expulsion from the league.

We never expelled anyone. Although one git with a bit of the red mist did get a ban at one point. :-) (My favorite competitor, 3 tenths slower, as wide as a house... )

...and whattyoo got against CRC? Those rules are perfectly acceptable in any form of racing. I think they stand up universally.

[operator0]

I'm bumping this up so Dan G can DL the replay I link too in a previous post.

[Hoellsen]

The problem with "unlimited" blocking I think is when someone is coming up on you and you move over to block, he is there. He either brakes to avoid ramming you or swings out around you. If you attempt a second block, he has momentum and would be there up beside you, so you will hit him and take him out.

Okay, the discussion is a bit older, but I'd like to comment on this. If in that second block attempt the slower driver runs into the other driver, he has taken him out and should be penalized for that. No need for another rule that says "you can't change line a 2nd time" if there is already a rule "you are not allowed to take other people out".

If you said "you are allowed one move", you could even take it further: Two guys racing, the faster one pulling up by the side, the slower one drives him off the track. He could then argue: "hey, i was allowed one move, so I did nothing wrong". Well, that pretty much should show the absurdity of such a rule.

As DBC said: if you use common sense, there is no need for such a rule. A faster will get by eventually, as long as he isnt run off the track and thus there should only be a rule (or common understanding) that you are not allowed to do the latter. Other than that: let them fight.

[Gizz]

well #1 we are all using the wrong word here its no so much a "block" its a "obstruction" end story, now ok there are different types of racing with varying levels of contact "F1 and BTCC", but the obstruction of another driver wrong, i dont race in RL myself but me and the oldman look after a race car for a good friend and us being on the recieving end of this a few times i know to be true..


just last night i was racing the FO8 and a battle opened up between me and santanas, now it took me many attemts to get passed him even on corners i knew my car was faster, and it looked the same thing for him when i was leading..

you DONT have to obstruct a driver to hold him back, if your slower on the straits well i got news for ya "this racing", if you had a slower exit from the last corner than the car behind well say goodbye to your position...

if you class your self as "pretty quick" medioker what ever then you will know that come off that racing line and your dropping bags of time, last night santanas drove perfectly and for me to pass him i had to have a hell of a lot of extra speed to get past as he put his car in such a position i really had to come off the line , this means breaking spots go out the window and same for turn in points and power on points... a couple of times i got along side him but due to the change of line i couldnt finish the monouver...

he didnt "block/obstruct" me once in several races but he made me wrk for every attemt, thats racing, obstruction is NFS stuff sorry but thats the truth... just look at a few of the F1 races gone by in the last few months, drivers being over taken on the strait and they dont move they let it happen, if there faster then there going to overtake if you made a mistake in the last turn and exit with a lower speed they will overtake, this "block" rule IMHO is a load of bull, no offence you can defend your possition without driving like someone out of tango and cash....

[operator0]

I wrote a book.

You have a replay of that? I'd love to see it.

[Gizz]

im afraid not but ill ask santanas tonight if i see him, although im not sure weather to post it anyway as its actualy ambarassing as i flew off 2 laps before the end while trying to push that little bit to hard :D grate racing though

i wrote a book

LMAO!!!

[tailing]

This is a necessary rule and it's not hard to enforce in a league even without reviewing replays, if a driver is blocking unfairly down a straight other drivers will soon bring it to the attention of admins.

[Doorman]

........... The only thing I hate about that is how they put so much pressure on you. I usually hold for those laps then just drive myself off the track like a noob.

lol, I can so relate to that. :)

[FEANOR]

Below is the link for the Code of Driver Conduct from the Confederation of Australian Motorsport Manual 2005 edition.

http://users.on.net/~bergpand/LFS/CODC.doc (http://users.on.net/%7Ebergpand/LFS/CODC.doc)

My team (Screaming Donkey Racing) used this as a base to develop our Code of Driver Conduct (which is below) that is enforced on our server (when its up).

SDR Drivers Code of Conduct
Screaming Donkey Racing wishes to promote safe competition avoiding car-to-car contact. All competitors racing on our servers should adhere to these guidelines at all times.

a) No weaving on the straight

b) No blocking on the straight

c) No repeated blocking in corners.

d) It is the responsibility of the car performing an overtaking manoeuvre to do so in a safe manner, do not expect the car in front to give way if you are only part way past.

e) Care must be taken when re-entering the track. A report may be made by a race of official to the Clerk of Course(admin) notifying the Clerk of Course of any drivers who have apparently or actually breached the
above guidelines. This report will list drivers involved in any dangerous or unsportsmanlike procedures and will request the Clerk of Course to pay special attention to these drivers.
If an incident is particularly serious, at the discretion of the Clerk of Course, this may result in exclusion from the
Race/or Championships.

f) A blue flag means the car behind you is on a higher lap than you are and "don't hold him up or obstruct him". When a lapping car approaches you are presented with a blue flag a driver must make plans to allow the car behind clear passage for overtaking as soon as is practicable and safe. If racing for position with another car it is acceptable for the battling pair not to immediately yield to the lapping car behind them, however the slower cars must yield to the lapping car with little delay. The exception to the blue flag rule is when you are faster than the car behind you even though he is on a higher lap. You will still get a blue flag but obviously you will pull away from him if you are faster. This can occur, for example when the faster car has just left the pits and because he comes out in front of the slower car who hasn't yet pitted he is on the previous lap and gets a blue flag. But he should just drive away into the distance. If he holds up the car behind for any reason he has disobeyed the blue flag. You can not obstruct a car that is about to lap you. Put another way, you should not hinder the progress of a car that is in a higher position than you.

g) Every driver, no matter his skill level or speed, is fully entitled to follow the racing line all the way around on his qualifying laps and it's up to others to overtake him or time their own run so that they don't meet him (if they want a clean run).

*Competitors who breach the guidelines above will be given official notification
that further indiscretions may result in exclusion from SDR servers or competitions.

Definitions and Limitations.

The Track:
For purposes of definition the "track" or "circuit" is bounded by painted lines, curbs (& ripple strips etc) and run-off areas and excluding the pit area. When overtaking another car this must be done on the "track". If a car gains a position by using any area outside the track he must yield his position back to the car he just overtook. This includes cutting corners, or using non-track areas. Penalty: Stop Go. Some flexibility for minor incursions will always be considered, for example if a wheel touches the grass during an overtaking manouvre their won't be any penalty, it won't be considered an infringement.

The Pit Area
A painted lines bound the pit entry and exit areas. The lines bounding the entry and exit must not be crossed. The yellow lines after the pit exit are considered a part of the track but must not be crossed by a car exiting the pits. This is for safety of all drivers. Circulating cars should be wary of cars leaving the pits and exiting cars should be wary of circulating cars. A speed limit of 80kph (approx 50mph) will apply to the pit area and sometimes a portion of the pit road entry and exit (as signed). Default LFS penalties apply.
Pitting on the final lap of a race is not permitted. A car must not finish the race in the pit area. Only cars finishing in the track area will be counted. Cars pitting on their final lap will be given the designation: DNF (did not finish).

edit
This Code of Driver Conduct is still being refined so if and when it changes I will edit this post aswell.
/edit