Team skins used by non members, how to protect?

[traxxion]

Hey guys,

I've just heard from a teammate he daily sees 3 to 4 people online using our teamskins...
Now if it were Biggie's or other aliens it wouldnt be a real problem :tilt: but most of the time they are either wreckers or newbie's, often they seem to be the ones causing mayhem in t1 for example...

Question is what can we do about this, apart from asking them friendly not to use our skins?

I'm just thinking it would be nice to have a certain unlock code / password attached to skin filenames that can be set by the one that uploads it.

If you agree on this I can post it in the Improvement suggestion forum, but maybe someone has a better idea? :shy:

[Vykos69]

no, there is no way to prevent this. Be proud, that people - even if they are wreckers - like your skins and use them. The moment you put them online to lfsworld, people get them and can use them freely.

[JJ72]

self discipline and mutual respect?

[traxxion]

self discipline and mutual respect?
Wish it was that easy :)

no, there is no way to prevent this. Be proud, that people - even if they are wreckers - like your skins and use them. The moment you put them online to lfsworld, people get them and can use them freely.
What is wrong with my password suggestion? Imo it's a way to protect the skins..?
Oh and yes, in a way I'm proud people use our skins, but I'd still rather see they didn't :)

[danowat]

How about upload a poor quality on to LFSworld, and distribute a high quality one to your friends? that way your friends will always see the good skin, and the people who use them without permission have the poor one?.

Or you could put a banner on the uploaded LFSworld skin?.

Just an idea, not sure about the password idea though, seems a little heavy handed.

Dan,

[Woz]

Wish it was that easy :)


What is wrong with my password suggestion? Imo it's a way to protect the skins..?
Oh and yes, in a way I'm proud people use our skins, but I'd still rather see they didn't :)

There is NO WAY to protect a jpeg image. If a player joins a game you are in your skin jpeg is downloaded to their skinx directory which is the download skin cache. They simply copy it to their skin directory and now they can use.

[Thorvertonian]

LFSWorld has a record of members of each team, maybe a team skin can be uploaded to LFSWorld where only the registered members can display this skin in game???

[traxxion]

There is NO WAY to protect a jpeg image. If a player joins a game you are in your skin jpeg is downloaded to their skinx directory which is the download skin cache. They simply copy it to their skin directory and now they can use.
Don't tell me there's now way :p. There's always a way, but it might mean a complete different way of thinking, handling and coding.

LFSWorld has a record of members of each team, maybe a team skin can be uploaded to LFSWorld where only the registered members can display this skin in game???
Good idea, though if people rename the skin and upload it into their own account they can easily avoid that protection. So maybe also an encryption of jpg's in the skins_x directory should be possible for teamskins?

[al heeley]

If you don't want your skins used by others then don't post them up on lfs world, then they will not get into other people's skins_x folder. Distribute your skins round your team by email so the team members can see them. This I think would be a big step backwards to S1 days when loads of blank skins were racing round all the time. Be flattered that others aspire to be identified with such a good looking skin.

[traxxion]

If you don't want your skins used by others then don't post them up on lfs world, then they will not get into other people's skins_x folder. Distribute your skins round your team by email so the team members can see them. This I think would be a big step backwards to S1 days when loads of blank skins were racing round all the time. Be flattered that others aspire to be identified with such a good looking skin.
Stepping backwards is not exactly what I'm trying to achieve here, so I dont see "not uploading to lfsw" as a solution :).
And again, in a way I am flattered people use our skins, but we've put a lot of effort in giving the team it's own face, and I'm quite sure a lot of teams have, so it's not very nice to see people walking away with that work. Edit: especially when they "abuse" it.
I keep thinking there's always a way, so why not try to come together and find a nice solution?

[SkyNet]

I wouldn't be very proud if some wreckers would use my teamskin! It certanly won't help you gain respect in lfs comunity if somebody wrecks and does nasty stuff while driving with your teamskin Al.

[Pablo.CZ]

LFSWorld has a record of members of each team, maybe a team skin can be uploaded to LFSWorld where only the registered members can display this skin in game???This isnt solution, not every team is registered and you can upload their skin renamed to lfsw as yours. Solution: if you upload skin, there would be option (checkbox) if its public or private. if public, no change from now, if private, skin would be coded to some unknown format (jpgx) created by devs and cant be shown via lfsw web by other users. jpgx will be normal jpg if decoded by lfs.exe, so you can see it on other cars, but jpgx cannot by used in skins dir (only in skins_x), so you cant use it.
(excuse for my english)

[traxxion]

Solution: if you upload skin, there would be option (checkbox) if its public or private. if public, no change from now, if private, skin would be coded to some unknown format (jpgx) created by devs and cant be shown via lfsw web by other users. jpgx will be normal jpg if decoded by lfs.exe, so you can see it on other cars, but jpgx cannot by used in skins dir (only in skins_x), so you cant use it.
(excuse for my english)
My words exactly, this should be possible and not too difficult to achieve, I think.

[NotAnIllusion]

And then someone would probably figure out where to read the decoded skin values from memory using a debugger. Even if the file name was locked on LFSW it would just need renaming and we'd back to square 1. I can't see that working against people who intentionally want to abuse your skin, although it would prevent random ppl from getting hold of it.

[Pablo.CZ]

Yes, everything can be cracked, but 99,999% users dont know how to do it, especially stupid wreckers :)

[Scoop]

lfs should just lock the skin-x file :) i'm sure they can do that

[ColeusRattus]

I don't think it should be too hard to protect the skins...

Scawen could set it up so that the skin_x folder will be deleted as soon as you quit the server or end a replay. This would greatly increase the traffic of the LFSworld server though.

Another possibility is to use different file types (allthough I guess that would be a tad harder to program) for usable skins and vieable skins. so e. g. the skins_x folder uses jpg, and the skins folder uses tga. I guess that most skin stealers wouldn't bother to convert the skin...

And another one: "simply" create an original skins_x file extension like .skx. It wouldn't matter much if it were techically renamed JPEGs, because as above, most stealers would be put off by the fact that they couldn't just copy and paste the files to use them...

These are not 100% secure ways to protect the skins, but they will at least reduce the skin stealing.

A more secure method would be an option for the uploader of skins to flag it either as public or private, where he could create a list of user names that are allowed to use it. Then the skin wouldn't show up (or even better, be replaced with an "using unauthorised skin" skin) when someone uses it without being in this list. So he would have to upload it by himself to be able to use it, which would be another hinderance.

So two or three of these possibilities combined should make team skins reasonably secure... Allthough I think that further improvement of LfS has a higher priority than protecting skins IMHO.

EDIT: should read other answers before posting myself... lot of it has been mentioned already ;)

[Becky Rose]

A picture cannot be protected against people who ignore copyright, not that I expect your skin had a copyright marking.

If you put a copyright on it you could technically ask the LFS devs to provide personal details of the "thief" in order to bring about a prosecution ... but that's just a tad extreme !

I have two things which protect my main skin from abuse by 3rd parties:

Firstly I have my driver name on the skin, not everyone wants to race with a front wing that says "Becky" and a driver ident under the cockpit of "B.Rose";

Secondly it's got a lot of pink on it, and very few people want to race with a pink car.

Mind you, I never really thought about these things when I made my skin, but I guess those are the main reasons why i've not seen other people using my sublimely sexy skin :).

[TDSyco]

my sublimely sexy skin :).

hrhrhr :D

[traxxion]

...
Personalizing skins is one way, though a lot of work for (big) teams. :) Doesn't take away that we've recently started working on that.

[Woz]

I don't think it should be too hard to protect the skins...

Scawen could set it up so that the skin_x folder will be deleted as soon as you quit the server or end a replay. This would greatly increase the traffic of the LFSworld server though.

Another possibility is to use different file types (allthough I guess that would be a tad harder to program) for usable skins and vieable skins. so e. g. the skins_x folder uses jpg, and the skins folder uses tga. I guess that most skin stealers wouldn't bother to convert the skin...

And another one: "simply" create an original skins_x file extension like .skx. It wouldn't matter much if it were techically renamed JPEGs, because as above, most stealers would be put off by the fact that they couldn't just copy and paste the files to use them...

These are not 100% secure ways to protect the skins, but they will at least reduce the skin stealing.

A more secure method would be an option for the uploader of skins to flag it either as public or private, where he could create a list of user names that are allowed to use it. Then the skin wouldn't show up (or even better, be replaced with an "using unauthorised skin" skin) when someone uses it without being in this list. So he would have to upload it by himself to be able to use it, which would be another hinderance.

So two or three of these possibilities combined should make team skins reasonably secure... Allthough I think that further improvement of LfS has a higher priority than protecting skins IMHO.

EDIT: should read other answers before posting myself... lot of it has been mentioned already ;)

Why should it be so complex. The simple solution as already stated is that the skin is encrypted and only decrypted when in memory.

But unless its done with serious encryption it will be cracked by someone quickly and then skins wont be protected anymore. This is just the nature of software and the internet.

There are far better uses for the devs time than implementing security on the skin files. Unless its done right, which takes serious work, it will be cracked quick and hence be a waste of dev time.

[Frankmd]

It would be possible to make some sort of protection using a fileformat that is very hard to crack, but since it is an image, I think something like that will be cracked pretty soon. And I dont consider the problem big enough to create some kind of uberprotected format. Just think of all the time that has to be put into LFSWorld, LFS itself and for skinners while skinning. A protection will cause more trouble then it would solve.

My vote is to keep it the way it is. What we did with our teamnic skins was to put "This skin is property of teamnic and can only be used by teamnic members". Of course it is not a real protection, but I think it helped a bit, because I dont think we ever saw anyone use our skin after that.

[XRRoy]

What we did with our teamnic skins was to put "This skin is property of teamnic and can only be used by teamnic members". Of course it is not a real protection, but I think it helped a bit, because I dont think we ever saw anyone use our skin after that.
Did the same with the personal 1st racing skins now, lets hope it will help a bit:)

[traxxion]

I dont think we ever saw anyone use our skin after that.
I was gonna make a silly joke about your skins but I can't really, cos I liked the teamnic skins very much. :tilt:

Anyway, still in favor of a simple encryption. If people want to crack it, they always can, but I think they won't do it as soon, as much and as easy as they can now and that's what we're trying to achieve, right?

[franky500]

What we did with our teamnic skins was to put "This skin is property of teamnic and can only be used by teamnic members". Of course it is not a real protection, but I think it helped a bit, because I dont think we ever saw anyone use our skin after that.

if only it was as easy.. Its ben done on ours too.. but we keep seeing the same guy wear it. Not that i am bothered... free advertising :P

It seems to be the same guy that uses it though. So i dont think its as big a problem as some are making out.

[auch_enne]

IMHO it never hurt to try and find a solution, leaving it as is is kinda giving up on mankind ;)

As stated before, the protection doensn't have to 100% watertight, be creating a few hurdles can never hurt (most people are to lazy/dumb to crack it) plus I think some users might not know it is a teammembers only skin.. it works the other way around 2, what if you create nice skins you would like everybody to use at their free will, wouldn't you like a feature that promotes those skins? Thus indeed create a difference between Private and Public skins? I think most users will go by this simple rule only.. "aah I see it is a private skins, ok, I wont use it, and look for a nice public skin"...

You could then even have a little warning send to server admins, playerX is using a private skin that he aint aloud to use.. then admins could chose them self to give a warning/kick/ban or what just tolorate....

So to summarize, dont go for an all out protection like the demo/S2 unlock protection, but just a simple feature telling users what skins they can use for themself, and what skins skinners would like to keep for them selfs...

Just my 2 cents...

[Frankmd]

I was gonna make a silly joke about your skins but I can't really, cos I liked the teamnic skins very much. :tilt:

Anyway, still in favor of a simple encryption. If people want to crack it, they always can, but I think they won't do it as soon, as much and as easy as they can now and that's what we're trying to achieve, right?

Well, a joke wont hurt in here.

[STRAHD]

Haha, yeah we had been dealing with this since b4 S1. There is no way, all you can do is keep your personal skins offline. Maybe you could make a public skin close to the same as your team one and if you see someone using your skin ask them nicely to use the public version and not you personal one. Some people wont but you may get a few that will do it for you. You could use the public one yourself when racing online that way thats all the general racing public would have to use anyway if they wanted, and just keep the personal ones to team races.

This is why I gave up doing team skins, now I can just be happy when I see one of my skins online(not that Ive made any new skins for a while now)

[traxxion]

Well, a joke wont hurt in here.
Hehe, I was gonna say it might have been to do with your skin's design, that people are not using it :D
But as I said, it wouldn't really be a valid joke, cos the teamnic skins were very nice. :nod:

[Sawyer]

Get real guys. They have already a hard time protecting the game itself from crackers (which they are doing great with the forum and multi player) now you want Skin protection? lol.
If he wrecks with your skin well who cares. He will get banned or noticed by his LFSW username. Noone will come and say hey this TeamSkin driver wrecked me but they will call the wrecker by the name and possible username. So you may aswell go protect the names now.

Everything can be cracked, EVERYTHING apart of the multi-player CDkey and username solutions. But everything for offline play.
IF someone really wants to abuse it he will do so. He will just take a look at your car and paint his own version of it. Now what you gonna do? Now he has actually the full right to his skin. :thumb: :nod:

[Thorvertonian]

Everything can be cracked, EVERYTHING apart of the multi-player CDkey and username solutions. But everything for offline play :thumb: :nod:

I think you'll find they are crackable as well

Nothing is uncrackable or unhacakable, it's just a bigger challenge for the crackers!

[ColeusRattus]

Get real guys. They have already a hard time protecting the game itself from crackers (which they are doing great with the forum and multi player) now you want Skin protection? lol.
If he wrecks with your skin well who cares. He will get banned or noticed by his LFSW username. Noone will come and say hey this TeamSkin driver wrecked me but they will call the wrecker by the name and possible username. So you may aswell go protect the names now.

Everything can be cracked, EVERYTHING apart of the multi-player CDkey and username solutions. But everything for offline play.
IF someone really wants to abuse it he will do so. He will just take a look at your car and paint his own version of it. Now what you gonna do? Now he has actually the full right to his skin. :thumb: :nod:

Right, there's nothing we can do about crackers that are that dedicated... But it would greatly cut down on those who simply do it because it is easy.
You know every door can be broken open, yet you still lock it. Same here, just that the consequences are not really grave... But I agree taht there are more impoprtant things than the occasional skin-jacker :D

[Sawyer]

I think you'll find they are crackable as well

Nothing is uncrackable or unhacakable, it's just a bigger challenge for the crackers!

Well yeah they are crackable in a way to make cracked dedicated servers. But I have yet to hear about someone making a valid CDkey gen for any game.

[Greboth]

I dont know computers that well but i was thinkin as reading this, on LFSW why not have a feature where you say whether public or private (As suggested before) but instead of encrypting images, why not have all public skins downloaded to skinx_x, while ones marked as private are downloaded to the user but to a temperory folder that gets auo deleted when user leaves server.
Ive seen one person using a team skin, wasnt mg skin but was another team skin. Told them that they shouldnt use skins out at all really, but if they are gonna dont use team skins. they were like ok pitted changed skin to another teams skin, said it again and same thing happened they pitted and used another teams skin. After 3 times they were using a skin that didnt have team names or anything on so i left it. It does seem people do use skins out of skins_x folder.

[auch_enne]

Hmm I think my point is being missed a bit... Now people can't know that the skin they are using was not intended for them. Thus I think before you even start looking for crackable solution.....
Just create an option for LFSW uploaded skins to be marked for public use or not, thus players atleast know that the skin they like so much is actually a private skin of someone or of a teamskin etc etc

:thumb: continue discussion about how every lock a man can make a man can brake...

edit:
It does seem people do use skins out of skins_x folder.

Alot of people aren't photoshoppers, and I think alot of the skinner do intend their skins for public use. So this is not a problem, but if you are new to the game how should they know Ocrana is a team ;)

[spankmeyer]

So LFS needs a bad-ass DRM system, right? Maybe Sony BMG can consult Scawen? I mean they do have experience with good protection schemes for intellectual rights, eh.... :x

[filur]

Absolutely, and a popup licence agreement box upon downloading new skins.

[Hyperactive]

There isn't actually no need to get hands on those skins that are in your skins_x folder so some kind of "repackaging" could be introduced.

And maybe the best way to try to protect the skins is to contact the user and ask as politely as possible that the skin he is using isn't made for him. Don't know if this works, as some people are just a**holes.

Maybe Scawen could put a little *.txt file inside the skins_x folder where it reads that these skins are not for your use...?

(I have made a little contract with myself. As long as I don't see anyone using my personals skins online, I make free public skins with very free permissions to edit/use. If I even once see that someone is using my personal skins online, I'll remove all my public skins from whereever I have uploaded them and never make new public ones anymore. Simple as that :))

[Becky Rose]

If he wrecks with your skin well who cares. He will get banned or noticed by his LFSW username. Noone will come and say hey this TeamSkin driver wrecked me
Whilst I do agree with your point in a basic sense it isn't entirely true. Only a few days ago I was accused of driving back onto the track after a spin and taking cars out because "It was the pink car". In that race there where 3 pink cars, unusually, the least pink of which was mine !

But I have yet to hear about someone making a valid CDkey gen for any game.
I wont give a current example, but here's the Windows 95 key format

AAAAA-oem-AAAAA-AAAAA-AAAAA (if I recall correctly)

Win95 checks the validity of each block of AAAAA by adding up all the numbers, if the total equals the mathematical operator &7 (ie: is divisible by seven without any fractions left over) then it's a valid key.

So I could write a keygen that generates the first 4 digits randomly, lets say 1519. And then works out what the fifth digit needs to be to make it valid, in this case 15195, totalling 21, which is divisble by 7.

Every single game and utility i've ever seen with a CD key code has also had a pirate CD keygen utility written for it.

The only game I know of "never" to be pirated in online play is the MMO's, the original of which was Everquest. Which if you connected to one of the servers running the 3rd party server software (there was more than one, but one example is eqemu) it worked without a valid Everquest license.

So even the unhackable got hacked, in a manner of speaking.

As a programmer who has had to get to grips with proprietry file formats before I find the hardest "protection" to break is not encrypted at all, it's compression. Compression makes reverse engineering far harder than encryption/hashing/bit swapping etc.

With images it's easy to discern a pattern in a "bitmap" format, and it's the pattern (such as large areas of background colour) which give away the format. With compression there are no constant patterns, making it a pig to crack.

All of my own proprietry formats now include some form of compression.

However the problem is the extra cpu juice used when loading them, for most games this isn't an issue - but LFS loads and applies the skins in a live situation ... This is a big problem because it basically rules out doing anything cpu intensive whilst loading the images.

[PLAYLIFE]

Hehe, I was gonna say it might have been to do with your skin's design, that people are not using it :D
But as I said, it wouldn't really be a valid joke, cos the teamnic skins were very nice. :nod:

"Explaining" a joke is not "telling" a joke :D

[SamH]

Personally, I don't think it's that big of an issue. But since I have an opinion, as well as a constructive offering for a solution, I naturally feel obliged to burden you with it ;)

The simplest solution for LFS, in my mind at least, is social tolerance. This does need a little assistance from LFS, but the infrastructure is there already.

What exists:
Team skins are associated with teams. You drive for a team, and you wear the team livery. Teams are registered with LFS at LFSWorld. The team prefix is registered at LFSWorld. Team members are registered at LFSWorld. It's all there.

At the moment, many or perhaps even most, people who are members of teams have race names to include either a team prefix or a team suffix. Mine, for example, is CTR.SamZ because I'm a member of Computeam.. hence CTR

What's needed:
We just need a prefix/suffix system in LFS where, when we are in "race" mode, our team skin shows and our race name automatically includes our team prefix or suffix. To distinguish a genuine prefix/suffix, perhaps the system would default to a mid-grey background to the prefix/suffix.. or something, anyway, that can't be faked by simply editing a race name.

THEN all that is needed is for social unacceptability to take hold. Once the above is in place, if someone who CLEARLY ISNT a member of a team IS WEARING a team skin.. they'll be boo'd off track by the "community".

More people quit smoking because of social unacceptability than because of the imminent risk of heart disease and/or death. In Britain, the government acknowledged that for all the money they spent on their drink-driving campaigns, the thing that ACTUALLY had an effect was the social unacceptability of drink-driving.. something they now are trying to engineer, to stop us driving our gas-guzzlers (but they can get lost!!).

There are minor additional things to resolve.. there are some people who race for multiple teams.. sprints and endurances, etc. Some like the more common prefix, but there are teams that have suffixes instead. Also the prefix/suffix needs to be optionally displayed. You need to be able to race for fun and not just for your team and glory.. but I think the idea is sound. What ya thinking?.

[Sawyer]

Whilst I do agree with your point in a basic sense it isn't entirely true. Only a few days ago I was accused of driving back onto the track after a spin and taking cars out because "It was the pink car". In that race there where 3 pink cars, unusually, the least pink of which was mine !


I wont give a current example, but here's the Windows 95 key format

AAAAA-oem-AAAAA-AAAAA-AAAAA (if I recall correctly)

Win95 checks the validity of each block of AAAAA by adding up all the numbers, if the total equals the mathematical operator &7 (ie: is divisible by seven without any fractions left over) then it's a valid key.

So I could write a keygen that generates the first 4 digits randomly, lets say 1519. And then works out what the fifth digit needs to be to make it valid, in this case 15195, totalling 21, which is divisble by 7.

Every single game and utility i've ever seen with a CD key code has also had a pirate CD keygen utility written for it.

The only game I know of "never" to be pirated in online play is the MMO's, the original of which was Everquest. Which if you connected to one of the servers running the 3rd party server software (there was more than one, but one example is eqemu) it worked without a valid Everquest license.

So even the unhackable got hacked, in a manner of speaking.

As a programmer who has had to get to grips with proprietry file formats before I find the hardest "protection" to break is not encrypted at all, it's compression. Compression makes reverse engineering far harder than encryption/hashing/bit swapping etc.

With images it's easy to discern a pattern in a "bitmap" format, and it's the pattern (such as large areas of background colour) which give away the format. With compression there are no constant patterns, making it a pig to crack.

All of my own proprietry formats now include some form of compression.

However the problem is the extra cpu juice used when loading them, for most games this isn't an issue - but LFS loads and applies the skins in a live situation ... This is a big problem because it basically rules out doing anything cpu intensive whilst loading the images.

No what I meant. You never get a working CDky for online play. Offline allright they work thats just as good as cracks anyway. But I have never heard of a game which wasnt bugged like STEAM for some time to get it working. Just like LFS. You can crack it for offline but you wont get online with that and without an account. So I say the protection works 99.9% on this one. Just like you cant play CSS on offical servers without an key nowdays.

[wollschaf]

Encryption seems like the way to go.

Every player could be assigned a secret n-bit key. Skins uploaded to LFS World that are marked as private could be encrypted using this key.

Upon trying to display the encrypted skin LFS connects to the Master / LFSWorld server to get the username and player's key. Decryption is then possible... but only if the skin is used by the right player.

A default skin displaying "I tried stealing skins from other users" could be displayed if decryption fails :scratchch

Of course this system can be beaten, too. Not with a simple offline-tool, though. Something that grabs the transferred keys or reads the texture from memory can.

But it's not at all importand to make it perfectly secure...

Although... I'd rather see physics updates instead of that feature. :x

[TagForce]

No what I meant. You never get a working CDky for online play. Offline allright they work thats just as good as cracks anyway. But I have never heard of a game which wasnt bugged like STEAM for some time to get it working. Just like LFS. You can crack it for offline but you wont get online with that and without an account. So I say the protection works 99.9% on this one. Just like you cant play CSS on offical servers without an key nowdays.

All the games that have a keygen, and do NOT require a paid subscription to play online, have them. Not all of them work (some may be already used, some may have been excluded), but if you try enough keys, you'll find one that passes the tests. Especially if the key isn't actually used online for verification, then any simple working key works online.

[SamH]

The original topic is regarding preventing "thieves" from stealing your skin. The "how to" of cracking online games should be dropped immediately.

It's not a huge leap from the current infrastructure to have team skins assigned to team members at LFSWorld, but it would take some pretty fundamental programming changes to prevent very rare rogue players from using team skins they're not "entitled" to use.

In short, I don't think it's going to happen.

[Psymonhilly]

maybe give the team there own skin upload area and protect that, just my shout on things:)

[snak35]

Hey guys,

I've just heard from a teammate he daily sees 3 to 4 people online using our teamskins...
Now if it were Biggie's or other aliens it wouldnt be a real problem :tilt: but most of the time they are either wreckers or newbie's, often they seem to be the ones causing mayhem in t1 for example...

Question is what can we do about this, apart from asking them friendly not to use our skins?

I'm just thinking it would be nice to have a certain unlock code / password attached to skin filenames that can be set by the one that uploads it.

If you agree on this I can post it in the Improvement suggestion forum, but maybe someone has a better idea? :shy:

why the big deal about skins.
i'm betting you do not observe others copyright religiously..

[Gabkicks]

if you really care about someone stealing your skin... dont make it available to others.:pillepall

[SamH]

if you really care about someone stealing your skin... dont make it available to others.:pillepall
Yeah.. I just visited the 1ST website for the first time, and I MUST say it does seem a bit dumb to complain about people downloading and using the skins when they're available in high-res 1024 and super-res 2048 right from the front page of your team website.

What the hell is the point in offering them anyway, when you're asking them NOT to use them, and only to download them to the skins_x folder.. that's going to happen when they come across the team members on a server anyway!

Some HOME security sense would be a big start before asking the devs to make changes to THEIR system.

[Tweaker]

Read this thread: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2383

My explanation about how this really couldn't work is all in there. No need to discuss it twice ;)

[traxxion]

What the hell is the point in offering them anyway, when you're asking them NOT to use them, and only to download them to the skins_x folder.. that's going to happen when they come across the team members on a server anyway!

Some HOME security sense would be a big start before asking the devs to make changes to THEIR system.
Sorry for offering people that race with us the possibility to have nicer cars on their screen. Now what's the reason for all the shouting? :(

LFSW is not protected, nor are we at this time, because we simply can't. The purpose of this thread is to find a solution for that problem.

Also, on that same page it says the following:

Please note! Teamskins are for usage by 1ST members only, if you're not a teammember, please unzip the skin in the skins_x folder!


It's not a huge leap from the current infrastructure to have team skins assigned to team members at LFSWorld, but it would take some pretty fundamental programming changes to prevent very rare rogue players from using team skins they're not "entitled" to use.
Yes it would take fundamental programming changes but reading from the replies in this thread I seem to be not the only one with this problem, so it might be worth to put it on the list for improvement on the long term... :shrug:

[traxxion]

Read this thread: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2383

My explanation about how this really couldn't work is all in there. No need to discuss it twice ;)
I'm sorry I didnt see that thread before, although I have used the search function before posting.
What I read there is another opinion of why you wouldnt want this feature implemented or why you think it's too difficult to implement, I don't see a valid reason for why it couldn't work.

[Tweaker]

It's not that it couldn't work (it has the ability to work, but it is outlandish), its all the other issues and complexities that just make it really an "out-of-the-way" feature... and all for what? Someone using a team skin which means absolutely nothing or has no affect on anyone but a team? An LFS team???

If there was a real Ferrari team playing this game, they would get pretty mad with the usage of their stuff of course, but that isn't the same as our teams running into issues which are completely impossible to enforce.

This is all a public domain world/community in LFS, you gotta realize that. Nobody has ownership of anything. And if you want to spend time to think of a solution in which people must be enforced, that'd really spoil the game's atmosphere of flexibility, especially for skinning. It is like passing on MP3s over the internet... and we really don't need The Skin Police.

[SamH]

it might be worth to put it on the list for improvement on the long term... :shrug:
Definitely NOT if teams are going to make their skins so readily available for people to "abuse", and therefore circumventing any efforts made by the LFS devs. I cannot think of a more wasteful use of the devs' time, to implement such drastic changes in such circumstances.

The discussion took hold because of an 1ST posting, and I myself participated even though I really DONT care personally. Nevertheless I posted my idea for a solution because I was mistakenly under the impression that, despite best efforts to protect team skins, they were being stolen from the skins_x folder and reused. I didn't realise until later that those skins are available in quality resolutions for download from the 1ST website's front page.

I still think that a mood of intolerance in the community would be a far more effective route to stop people racing in team skins without permission.

[Hyperactive]

I am not sure that I understood it correctly... But the problem is not that some people steal the likeliness of a team skin - the problem is that some just go through their skins_x folder looking for a nice skin for themselves :pillepall

Though offering hi-res versions of teams skins on the team's site is little uncautious. I would never even upload my own personal skins to the "render my skin"-thread simply because some a***ole might just "take it".

One would think that just contacting the "misbehaved person" by some kind of PM in friendly tone telling him why he shouldn't use their skin and give some links to where to find some good public skins.

I bet it is still most of the cases that the "guilty" just doesn't "know" it.

[Grivage]

Personalizing skins is one way, though a lot of work for (big) teams. :) Doesn't take away that we've recently started working on that.
dSRC currently has 26 members i believe so i think we class as a big team.

Having produced all off the S2 skins to date for the team i can confirm that it is indeed a big job. How we have gone about it more by luck than judgement has produced highly personal skins for all members making them less piratable and IMO hasnt taken a massive amount of time.

Several factors are key.

I dont design the skins. Therefore the workload is spread between 2 members as Ian.H designs the base skin (his own naturally).

As we are using a vector based graphics package it is incredibly easy to substitute, align and change for individualities. Currently GTR and Formula classes have 3 personal details; number, Nationality flag and a personal colour. Road going cars also have the drivers name added to make 4 individualities per skin.

I am now at the stage where i can skin the team in under an hour per car even when i am fiddling lining names up for road going cars. The key is a little preperation. I have 2 prior prepared files which are invaluable.

A swatch catalogue with every members personal colour saved into it. Each swatch is named with the players name exactly as it is to appear on the skin, their number and which country flag is correct. These swatches are then ordered by country so that when i apply a flag to the skin, i can relock that layer while i produce all of the skins needed and i never have to reapply a flag more than once. The other file is simply all of the country flags displayed at the correct size and ordered to correspond to the swatch order. Simple copy and paste, a quick align and voila :thumb:

As for piracy i have had several instances of people using my personal skins complete with my name on the side and frankly it makes me LOL.

Very flattering tbh especially for someone renowned IRL as having the creativity of an Ant :nod:

I can understand with team skins it is a different issue slightly. I think that having a link on your site screaming get me is asking for it a little but thats just my opinion. I think you can find links to our skin packs in our forum somewhere but AFAIK everyone has uploaded to LFSworld and people get them from that. The skins i am producing are all in the <400kb range anyway so you get the hires version from LFSWorld :smileypul

I remember one instance of someone using one of our skins on our server but tiny :margesimp soon sorted him out. As he failed to remove it and then rejoined still using it after being kicked i think he got a 999 dayer :pillepall

[himself]

My suggestion is:

The skins from skinx folder after being dowloaded should be attached to a big file - sort of database - of dowloaded skins so far. Like the email programs they dowload all mail from the mailbox server and keep them in sort of cache file. No additional comression. Each file could have some sort of additional information then - about the author and Team it is used by.

What do you think?

[filur]

What do you think?

Lots of code, extremely simple to take apart.

[traxxion]

If there was a real Ferrari team playing this game, they would get pretty mad with the usage of their stuff of course, but that isn't the same as our teams running into issues which are completely impossible to enforce.
I understand your point Tweak, but I hope you agree that LFS is growing and turning more professional every day. I can imagine teams like Ocrana, pod, n!, pttm, and so on, who have real life sponsors and race in EPS where you get money for podium places, wouldn't really like the negative publicity wreckers and noobs with their skins could deliver them. This can be an even bigger problem in the future if simracing as an e-sport keeps developing the way it has over the last few years.

Definitely NOT if teams are going to make their skins so readily available for people to "abuse", and therefore circumventing any efforts made by the LFS devs.
I'm sure that when LFS has found a way to protect the skins in skins_x folder, teams where the stakes get high will protect their skins at all costs. Now there's simply no need to protect them cos there's a big leak on the other side ;)

I remember one instance of someone using one of our skins on our server but tiny :margesimp soon sorted him out. As he failed to remove it and then rejoined still using it after being kicked i think he got a 999 dayer :pillepall
Can we hire tiny for a while? :nod: :shy: :razz:

[Sawyer]

The only way for this to work would be if the skins are loaded into memory of your GFX card only. I havent heard about anybody extracting anything for a GFX yet since all hacks are done to extract stuff from computer memory only and nobody did yet need to crack textures. But for this LFSW would need much more bandwidth. An easy solution around this is that they allow us to host or own skins on or own webhosts. I'm sure everyone has at last 10MB free webspace from his ISP.

[Hyperactive]

...
...I can imagine teams like Ocrana, pod, n!, pttm, and so on, who have real life sponsors and race in EPS where you get money for podium places, wouldn't really like the negative publicity wreckers and noobs with their skins could deliver them.
...
...

I really don't see the connection here. If a wrecker uses the skins of some team and goes to a server with it - I don't think no one takes it as the wrecker was part of the team. The skin the wrecker is using has 0 effect on how he gets treated.

[Phlos]

The only way for this to work would be if the skins are loaded into memory of your GFX card only. I havent heard about anybody extracting anything for a GFX yet since all hacks are done to extract stuff from computer memory only and nobody did yet need to crack textures. But for this LFSW would need much more bandwidth. An easy solution around this is that they allow us to host or own skins on or own webhosts. I'm sure everyone has at last 10MB free webspace from his ISP.
And how is it loaded in GFX memory ? :pillepall
Well anyway it's not a big deal. As some people already said, Scawen should make a tiny file format (jpgx) that encrypts skins files. When a user download them via LFSWorld, he downloads the encrypted jpg file (jpgx) that will be store in skin_x directory.

So the game load it, decrypt it in memory and show it on car, simple as that :thumb:

Why are you talking about extracting decrypted skin from memory ? :pillepall
99.9% of thoses skins stealer are just kids that stole skins from skin_x directory, they are not able at all to extract skins from memory, it's a hard task. :really:
They will probably don't even know that the skins are decrypted in memory or even encrypted on hard disk ("how shit i cannot open them with Photoshop, i'm wondering why :)").

[aDRENOcHROME]

The only way for this to work would be if the skins are loaded into memory of your GFX card only. I havent heard about anybody extracting anything for a GFX yet since all hacks are done to extract stuff from computer memory only and nobody did yet need to crack textures.
Nope that wouldn't work because:
the Texture Data has to pass through the conventional RAM before it can be transfered to the GFX card
you can easily get the data back from your GFX card (ie. screenshots or more technically a function like glReadPixels)

[Tomi]

Simply put your name/nickname on your skin. Very few people will want to race with another's nickname on their car.

[Chopst1x]

@ Becky Rose, i understand what your talking about with the CD keys but although these things come with keygens none work online at all, which is why i think its an effective solution, all MP games need a proper vaild cd key as opposed to just the keygen ones.

Also i think one way to combat this is to run your own server then you could kick/ban anyone using the skins.

[Gunn]

If you put a copyright on it you could technically ask the LFS devs to provide personal details of the "thief" in order to bring about a prosecution ... but that's just a tad extreme !It is also impossible to do. LFS uses filenames to load the skins so really there is no way of knowing if the skin you see on the other car is actually your skin or is a different skin entirely sharing the same filename. I have seen one or two people get into embarassing arguments over skins when they discover that the "offender" is using the same filename on a different texture. Also many people seem to accidentally use the default file names from LFS resulting in mistaken identity once more when racers are wearing the default skins. :schwitz:

[JJ72]

Hey guys,

I've just heard from a teammate he daily sees 3 to 4 people online using our teamskins...
Now if it were Biggie's or other aliens it wouldnt be a real problem :tilt: but most of the time they are either wreckers or newbie's, often they seem to be the ones causing mayhem in t1 for example...

Question is what can we do about this, apart from asking them friendly not to use our skins?

I'm just thinking it would be nice to have a certain unlock code / password attached to skin filenames that can be set by the one that uploads it.

If you agree on this I can post it in the Improvement suggestion forum, but maybe someone has a better idea? :shy:

Just name you team "wankers".:thumb:

[mrodgers]

...is actually your skin or is a different skin entirely sharing the same filename...
Tis why I put my initials at the beginning of the file name. Well, not real name initials, but NH for NightHawk. Helps a bit more to identify from the could be common problem you mention.

[Gunn]

Yes, it is good practice to make your skin file names more unique.

[Pain-less]

How about ...
1. You don't post the skins on LFS World.
2. When LFS exits, the x_skin folder is flushed.

[Cue-Ball]

How about ...
2. When LFS exits, the x_skin folder is flushed.It's very easy to Shift+F4 or alt+tab and access the folders while LFS is still running.

[mrodgers]

Plus us stoneage dialup guys would no longer be able to see skins. I couldn't download skins every time entering a server. I do it from the replays and save them for next time I see those folks.

[Alex-Ger]

I understand your point Tweak, but I hope you agree that LFS is growing and turning more professional every day. I can imagine teams like Ocrana, pod, n!, pttm, and so on, who have real life sponsors and race in EPS where you get money for podium places, wouldn't really like the negative publicity wreckers and noobs with their skins could deliver them. This can be an even bigger problem in the future if simracing as an e-sport keeps developing the way it has over the last few years.


I'm sure that when LFS has found a way to protect the skins in skins_x folder, teams where the stakes get high will protect their skins at all costs. Now there's simply no need to protect them cos there's a big leak on the other side ;)


Can we hire tiny for a while? :nod: :shy: :razz:


Well why should I think about skin abusing, shell they use them if you are unsure if a member belongs to us, just watch LFSW or our Website, then you'll see if the one belongs to our team or not.

Yes we have real life sponsors and if someone else uses our skin he just drives advertising around for us. ;)

There is no way to protect skins and i think there is also no need to.
I spend a lot of time for our skins, if you want to find out if the skins belongs to the driver, look at the car the drivername is writen down on it if it matches he is the owner, if not he's a fan of my work ;)

If there is any negative publicity than we can react to it.

[spsamsp]

How about upload a poor quality on to LFSworld, and distribute a high quality one to your friends? that way your friends will always see the good skin, and the people who use them without permission have the poor one?.

Or you could put a banner on the uploaded LFSworld skin?.

Just an idea, not sure about the password idea though, seems a little heavy handed.

Dan,

Because then nobody would want them :)

[zeugnimod]

Yes, that was the reason to do that. :really: So that it doesnt get used by non team members.

[[Thief]G(o)A]

LFS is growing and turning more professional every day. I can imagine teams like Ocrana, pod, n!, pttm, and so on, who have real life sponsors and race in EPS where you get money for podium places, wouldn't really like the negative publicity wreckers and noobs with their skins could deliver them.

I don't think they would care less really, it's all publicity - which is why this thread boggles my mind, how many games are there where skins and the like are protected?! The only time I could see someone getting angry is if they were charging money for the skins, which will be a sad day if that ever happens (and if they were charging, wouldn't this defeat the object of team skins?).

Perhaps some people need to get of their high-horses and worry about more important things than their egos. :razz:

[joen]

G(o)A']I don't think they would care less really, it's all publicity - which is why this thread boggles my mind, how many games are there where skins and the like are protected?! The only time I could see someone getting angry is if they were charging money for the skins, which will be a sad day if that ever happens (and if they were charging, wouldn't this defeat the object of team skins?).

Perhaps some people need to get of their high-horses and worry about more important things than their egos. :razz:
The main problem is (well at least it is to me), some teams an/or people like to have their own personalized skins and they want noone else to use those. PERIOD. What's so hard to understand about that? What's so terrible about respecting other people's wishes?

Regardless of what anyone thinks about the whole private skin thing, regardless of how stupid or egotripping anyone may think it is to want your skin to remain private, it's all just a matter of decency and respecting other people's wishes.

Many private skins have a notice on the skinfile saying something along the lines of "please do not use this skin, put it in your skins_x folder". Now if anyone deliberately just ignores that message (and sometimes even removes the notice from the skinfile), he's just a dickhead as far as i'm concerned. The opinion anyone has about private skins is completely irrelevant, it's about respecting the creator's opinion.

I like to have my own private skins. I love making them and I love using them. What I don't want is other people using them (well, some of them, I'm working on public skins too). That has nothing, i repeat nothing, to do with my ego. I just like it to be unique, that's all.

[Mazz4200]

The thread seems mainly concerned with car skins, but how would you feel if someone nicked your personal helmet skin ?

[[Thief]G(o)A]

I like to have my own private skins.

Simple answer then, keep them private - job done. :thumb:

As for respecting people's wishes, my wish is to keep the skinning side of things open (as it should be in my mind) - you don't see companies like subaru or ford throwing a temper tantrum and/or suing the average Joe in the street for making a replica rally car for example.

***EDIT***
Mazz, I would be most upset if someone circumcised me without my consent.

[Lible]

There is a cool way. :smileypul . Upload a skin with texts like I AM IDIOT, CALL ME IDIOT etc. to LFSWorld, then update your own skin with another name and tell your team members not to use the old one. :)

[joen]

G(o)A']Simple answer then, keep them private - job done. :thumb:
That's not an answer, that is forcing me to adjust because others are stealing a skin I worked hard on and clearly asked not to use. Bit of an upside down view if you ask me.


As for respecting people's wishes, my wish is to keep the skinning side of things open
Well if that's your wish, that's perfectly fine. You can decide that. For your skins.


you don't see companies like subaru or ford throwing a temper tantrum and/or suing the average Joe in the street for making a replica rally car for example.
Not really a good example. In this matter it would rather be like Renault copying Ferrari's livery 1-on-1. I think there would be a problem. (or Ford copying Subaru for example, whaetver)

I don't think there should be a protection system or anything built into the game or the skin files. That's taking it too far imo.

[RoCkBiGdAvE]

Is there not a way where LFS could download the skins and automaticly put them into a passworded RAR (or another form of compression) file? That way its locked from anyone nicking other peoples skins and LFS can control it. And if some need to be deleted, (free up some harddrive space depending on the size) maybe have an option within LFS to view them on a car (small model maybe?) and delete it from there?

I may be totaly wrong, but hey, i'm trying :)

[wheel4hummer]

[The devs should] Just make the skin_x folder an encrypted, compressed archive. Problem solved.

[[Thief]G(o)A]

Not really a good example. In this matter it would rather be like Renault copying Ferrari's livery 1-on-1. I think there would be a problem. (or Ford copying Subaru for example, whaetver)


No, this is incorrect - this would apply if one LFS team 'stole' another LFS team's livery and raced using them. Mine was the correct example (random, usually new to the game players using a team's skin).

:really:

[smove]

What about simply making your skin really personal by writing your name on it? I wouldn't drive a skin that writes a completely different name than mine is. ;)

[tinyk]

Doesn't work. I see people using team skins that clearly have member names on them. They don't care. I give them 1 option remove it or be banned from all of our servers. :) I don't care what team skin it is. If it's not theirs don't wear it. :)

~*~*~*~tinyk~*~*~*~

[-wes-]

sigh.. all this over an image that can be knocked up in a few hours.

Do you really care if people you dont know cant see the skin?
Just keep it within the team, end of problem.

Since its too much trouble for you to email the skin to your teammates, how about password protection from lfs world?

Wrong password no download. Again who cares if people you dont know cant see it, are you that vain?

There are people out there who would go out of their way to hack any encryption just so they can hack off a team. forget about the dev protecting you in this way.
I'm sure it's happening more often because of threads like this,let it go and get back to racing.
:fence:

[Huru-aito]

Do you really care if people you dont know cant see the skin?

I do. I like to see cars that aren't white. If everyone would think that "I don't know them, they don't need to see my skin" then we'd be back to 0.3 days.

:)

[-wes-]

Yes and if people keep moaning about this we may head back there. The devs may decide to switch off the skin system rather than watch the community self destruct.

I'm sure this issue pops up in all games that have player developed content, we can all retreet to our base's and dig in for a bloody war or just suck it up and ignore the few heretics.

"Share and enjoy"

[Yellowbugger]

Doesn't work. I see people using team skins that clearly have member names on them. They don't care. I give them 1 option remove it or be banned from all of our servers. :) I don't care what team skin it is. If it's not theirs don't wear it. :)

~*~*~*~tinyk~*~*~*~


The above seems like the best solution of all.
Keep it simple, treat skinstealers in the same way you treat wreckers :thumb:

[Mario Toyota Racing]

maybee password would be good for some skins but i really dunno how

[nath2006uk]

Simple Solution.... Just create a team server on lfs then tell everyone in your team the password to your password protected team server.
If you wnt to go on a different server then change your skin first.:scratchch :D

[ajp71]

The demo doesn't do skin sharing so your skins won't be visible to other racers.