Hotlapping mode unrealistic - quite funny:(

[DEVIL 007]

Hi all,

What I found really bad about current system of making hotlaps is how they are actually done.People are trying to warm up tyres in a pretty unrealistic way to make the 1st or 2nd lap(usually) the hotlap.

What should be done is the ban the idea to going backward in hotlap mode and makes those unrealistic car movements.

Also pre-warm up of tyres should be implemented.

Hope some other guys can add something and we can have serious disscussion about this issue.

[(SaM)]

I am not in favor. Describe the "unrealistic way" of warming up tyres.

[DEVIL 007]

I am not in favor. Describe the "unrealistic way" of warming up tyres.
Just downoad the WR hotlap of XFG in BL GP....the "initial" lap before doing the 1st lap hotlap.Do you consider it real life?I have never see it in real life when drivers make hotlaps with GTR cars ot what soever cars....except drag racing.

[ORION]

Yes I have always hated warming up the tyres with either those extreme steering actions, resulting in damaging your beloved any expensive wheel, or going backwards and doing weird things to get the tyres warm where they shall be warm. It would be easier to have a slider where you can set the start temperature :P

I am not in favor. Describe the "unrealistic way" of warming up tyres.
Well, people drive backwards and make a burnout with one tyre on the dirt, and in a special angle so you only warm up the outter part of the tyre... in some of the old Q hotlaps, quite a few drivers made a 5 minute tyre warumup procedure just to drive one lap... ROFL :D
99% of all my hotlaps end already in the first 2 turns. (after the last split and before the actual hotlap starts, that is) :D

[(SaM)]

Just because this tyre-heating procedure isnt performed before real races or hotlaps doesnt mean it is unrealistic. In fact, driving like this is possible and does heat up tires.
In Formula 1 before races, the drivers swirve to the sides and back as well to heat up tires, not as heavily as this hotlap, but it's similiar.

[JTbo]

Why they don't put 50% fuel and drive so long that tires are warm, that is what I do and I can't find any difference using less fuel, except car won't travel so long :scratchch

[DEVIL 007]

Just because this tyre-heating procedure isnt performed before real races or hotlaps doesnt mean it is unrealistic. In fact, driving like this is possible and does heat up tires.
In Formula 1 before races, the drivers swirve to the sides and back as well to heat up tires, not as heavily as this hotlap, but it's similiar.

The procedure how is made now is way too unrealistic.And we are talking about the simulator I hope.

[ORION]

It's not really "unrealistic", it's more "out of place" if you ask me. Have you seen Formula One drivers making burnouts on curbs to heat up their tyres? :D

[Cue-Ball]

The procedure how is made now is way too unrealistic.And we are talking about the simulator I hope.In the case of hotlaps, I don't think it really matters. The things that people do to warm the tires can be a bit extreme, but it's because nobody wants to waste time driving 5 laps, warming up the tires, when they only need a single lap for their hotlap time.

Is this method of tire warming before a hotlap negatively affecting you in some way?

[NotAnIllusion]

Or going in the wrong direction before their qualifying lap :p

I usually drive 5 lap sets when doing hotlaps. Tires get warmed where the grip is needed and I get a rhythm going that helps me concentrate on laps 3-5 when I'm really going for it. Much more realistic IMO.

Remember though that one can drive a single warmup lap in the correct direction too, swinging from side to side warming up the tires. It's not really an issue because the same effect can be attained in a more "legal" manner, it just saves some time.

[DEVIL 007]

In the case of hotlaps, I don't think it really matters. The things that people do to warm the tires can be a bit extreme, but it's because nobody wants to waste time driving 5 laps, warming up the tires, when they only need a single lap for their hotlap time.

Is this method of tire warming before a hotlap negatively affecting you in some way?

I liked hotlaping very much in past but to continue I would have to say soon bye,bye to my wheel.

And as I said we are talking about simulator which is in contrast with how is done the initial part of hotlaping.For example in F1 before new rules drivers made best laps after a few laps because even the pre-warmup of tyres doesnt make them to have best grip right after a start.

[GP4Flo]

Tyre heating is ok in my opinion. What should be changed are two things:
- Start out of the pits so you have a complete lap to warm up your tyres.
- Invalid hotlap when driving backwards, just like it's now in online mode.

[ORION]

No I dont like the idea of having to drive a whole lap, its takes so much time usually... Where is the problem with setting a decent start temperature?

[Shotglass]

what we need is either some way to prewarm tyres to a specific temperature or a different starting point for hotlaps (peferably from the pits)

[DEVIL 007]

Tyre heating is ok in my opinion. What should be changed are two things:
- Start out of the pits so you have a complete lap to warm up your tyres.
- Invalid hotlap when driving backwards, just like it's now in online mode.

Tyre heating is ok and I can really agree on this but going backward should be really made hotlap invalid.

[(SaM)]

No I dont like the idea of having to drive a whole lap, its takes so much time usually... Where is the problem with setting a decent start temperature?

Starting from pits is actually alot more realistic instead of suddenly being on the track from nowhere. The pits have to be where you always start from.

[ORION]

Yes of course but it's a waste of time and thus the reasong why im not hotlapping at all. Ok, I dont have enough practise to get decent laps anyways, so I will suck either :D
But I agree that prewarmed tyres and starting form the pits is the most realistic way.

[DEVIL 007]

But I agree that prewarmed tyres and starting form the pits is the most realistic way.

And not going backward ofcourse:thumb:

[mrodgers]

I agree that you should have to start from the pits. I have never hotlapped since my beginnings of LFS. But, I saw a few track/car combo's that netted me PB's and this early in the game, I noticed it wasn't far from the early WR's. It would be cool to get my name up there in the charts (as I never was a very fast driver) even if it would be wiped out rather quickly. It takes me 2 to 3 laps to get in the rythm for a good laptime, so, are all WR hotlaps only 1 lap? Or can you submit a replay of 2 or 3 laps and it would take the fastest one? I don't know that since I've never hotlapped.

[Pablo.CZ]

Or can you submit a replay of 2 or 3 laps and it would take the fastest one? I don't know that since I've never hotlapped.
Yes you can, even with nonHLVC laps, only HLVC valid fastest lap is counted

EDIT: Voting for prewarmed tyres and starting from the pits too.

[Execution Style]

Not exactly in the same subject, but on-topic for the thread..
anyone else ever had a problem with the idea that a hotlap is invalid after driving on the grass or dirt *on a rallycross circuit* ??? :pillepall


btw I also vote for a variable tire temp at start of hotlap, for what it's worth.

[JeffR]

F1 tire warmupF1, Champ cars, Indy Racing League, and many other car and almost all motorcycle series, use tire warmers to pre-heat the tires. In the case of F1, tires are pre-heated to about 190 degrees farenheight / 88 degrees celcius. The crew have to wear thermal gloves to handle the tires.

In the case of GPL, you had to run a pre-lap to warm up the tires. The one exception was Nordschliefe, where it was common to use a Nordcshleife (Nurburg) trainer to place your car near the end of the lap so you didn't have to run an entire 14.1 mile long lap to warm up tires.

[DEVIL 007]

I do like this idea. Just the backwars thing is a bit :pillepall , cause who would go backwards even von Aston club you dont go backwards just a bit to the right on the last turn to go a bit faster.

Look at BL hotlaps with XF GTI.It looks funny and weird what people do to make fastest lap.

I am for:

- going from pits
- going backwards mean invalid hotlap
- tyre warmup selectable.

[traxxion]

+1 for driving backwards
+1 for starting from the pitbox

[keiran]

I liked hotlaping very much in past but to continue I would have to say soon bye,bye to my wheel.


And as I said we are talking about simulator which is in contrast with how is done the initial part of hotlaping.For example in F1 before new rules drivers made best laps after a few laps because even the pre-warmup of tyres doesnt make them to have best grip right after a start.

Just use the "<" ">" to turn the FF off while you warm up your tyres and then as you head to do your lap turn it back on.

Keiran

[NotAnIllusion]

+1 for starting from where we currently do, with tires heated to a user-defined temperature. If they're heated to optimal temps what's the point of starting from the pits to drive an extra lap around the track? The only thing it would accomplish is overheating.

[Tukko]

Not exactly in the same subject, but on-topic for the thread..
anyone else ever had a problem with the idea that a hotlap is invalid after driving on the grass or dirt *on a rallycross circuit* ??? :pillepall
ehm what's the problem.. just keep 2 wheels on track (dirt, not grass) like driving on any other track :scratchch

and yeah +1 for the idea of pre-warmed tyres.. just like IRL :thumb:

[bal00]

Look at BL hotlaps with XF GTI.It looks funny and weird what people do to make fastest lap.

I guess I'm guilty of this, but you don't really have to destroy your wheel to get the tires up to temp. Since my controller has very little steering lock, I just do a couple of long slides to warm them up. When done right you don't need any crazy zigzag maneuvers. I made a replay to show you what I mean.

[joeynuggetz]

I agree with some of this. I guess some people feel that they're elite if they get a good hotlap on lap one or two. Who cares, in the ends its all about getting a good time. I warm up my tires by doing a few laps first.

[Renku]

The main issue here, seems to be the possibility of driving backwards in HL mode.
Ok, imagine this: I hotlap a LX4/6 with the current system a) at the start of the HL I accelerate with significant amount of wheelspin and stop the car when the rear wheels don't spin anymore and I repeat this procedure many times, b) then I warm the front tires by turning full lock in corners at the same time accelerating, so just before the actual HL starts I have prewarmed tires. I assume you, DEVIL 007 are gonna say that this way is "unrealistic" too, so what do you suggest? I can't brake before the actual HL or I can't turn the front wheels fully left and right?

I could agree with using prewarmed (to one FIXED temperature) tires on BF1, FXR, XRR, FZR, and removing the bacward driving option.

[MagicFr]

Look at BL hotlaps with XF GTI.It looks funny and weird what people do to make fastest lap.

I am for:

- going from pits
- going backwards mean invalid hotlap
- tyre warmup selectable.

TOTALY agreed :)

Simulator means, best physics, but also realistic behavior of driver on track.
In real life, you'll never see a car start in the middle of the track, or driver allowed to do dangerous think on track , EVEN if the track is closed for him only.
So why should it be authorized in a simulator ? :)

[DEVIL 007]

The main issue here, seems to be the possibility of driving backwards in HL mode.
Ok, imagine this: I hotlap a LX4/6 with the current system a) at the start of the HL I accelerate with significant amount of wheelspin and stop the car when the rear wheels don't spin anymore and I repeat this procedure many times, b) then I warm the front tires by turning full lock in corners at the same time accelerating, so just before the actual HL starts I have prewarmed tires. I assume you, DEVIL 007 are gonna say that this way is "unrealistic" too, so what do you suggest? I can't brake before the actual HL or I can't turn the front wheels fully left and right?

I could agree with using prewarmed (to one FIXED temperature) tires on BF1, FXR, XRR, FZR, and removing the bacward driving option.

I was only talking from that start to make the HL mode just a bit more realistic.What you have described is more closer to realistic(the full lock is also a bit unrealistic) and to stop before hotlap I dont see anything unrealistic.
I hope you can agree that going backwards in hotlaping mode is really beating the word simulator.

[plehto]

Yet another feature that isn't needed. The tyres will get warm one way or another, be that driving out of the pits, doing burnout or swerving.
Therefore it's just a matter of a time it takes, doesn't change anyone's speed on the track.
If you claim that is a reason for you to dislike hotlapping, it sounds like an excuse for not being competitive.

ps. No race is won in hotlapping mode

[MikeB]

Bah, i don't really care. Hotlapping is hotlapping - if you prefer to drive 5 laps to heat up your tires just do it. If you prefer burnouts and driving backwards to shorten the time for warming up - just do it :nod:.
So where is the problem? Everyone can do it the way he likes. In the end there is only ONE rule that counts: HLVC.
Hotlapping is all about ONE lap. I dont care how the lap is started, i even would say respect to people that have some creative lines and techiques. Just watch, learn and improve :thumb:

[DEVIL 007]

If you claim that is a reason for you to dislike hotlapping, it sounds like an excuse for not being competitive.

If you think so:)

[MR_B]

Yet another feature that isn't needed. The tyres will get warm one way or another, be that driving out of the pits, doing burnout or swerving.
Therefore it's just a matter of a time it takes, doesn't change anyone's speed on the track.
If you claim that is a reason for you to dislike hotlapping, it sounds like an excuse for not being competitive.

ps. No race is won in hotlapping mode

I agree with some of what you're saying.....I mean, racing is where the fun is at....

If you claim that is a reason for you to dislike hotlapping, it sounds like an excuse for not being competitive.

This is uncalled for, you havent seen him drive..assumptions aren't worth starting an arguemenet for, so keep it under lock and key.


I like this pre heated tyre business...It could promote some interesting race tactics..especially in events like ATC's 60 lappers and the like.
And I like the idea of invalidating a hotlap if you go backwards, makes sense really.

Oh, and I have no opinion on whether we start from pit or not - it's too big a point of conversation

[Darkone55]

Yes I have always hated warming up the tyres with either those extreme steering actions, resulting in damaging your beloved any expensive wheel, or going backwards and doing weird things to get the tyres warm where they shall be warm.

Well, I do this quite often in my hotlaps. But I'm not damaging my wheel, I don't full steer till I can't go further. :pillepall

But look to the F1 for example. Raikkonen does it the same way. He warms the rear tyres by making a burn-out, and the front tyres by extreme steering. And Alonso does it by some heavy slaloming. :D

But driving backwards shouldn't be allowed though.

And aren't the tyres already pre-warmed? I mean, if you start they're already 40 degrees C. While the air temprature is 20-25 degrees?

[tailing]

The way I see it hotlapping itself isn't very realistic so defining what is realistic behaviour when hotlapping is kinda a moot point.
If I happened to be in a "hotlapping" situation in real life I'm pretty certain there would be nothing stopping me from driving backwards or doing burnouts or whatever.
I dunno, I don't feel that strongly either way but find some of these discussions about what is and isn't realistic in a computer game a bit strange.

[MikeB]

The way I see it hotlapping itself isn't very realistic so defining what is realistic behaviour when hotlapping is kinda a moot point.
If I happened to be in a "hotlapping" situation in real life I'm pretty certain there would be nothing stopping me from driving backwards or doing burnouts or whatever.
I dunno, I don't feel that strongly either way but find some of these discussions about what is and isn't realistic in a computer game a bit strange.

*sign* :nod:

[Eldanor]

Maybe starting the hotlaps from the last sector is not realistis, but it is VERY useful, so you don't have to complete a whole lap before getting times.

I think this is one of those Simulation-features that we can get advantage of., why get rid of it?

[deggis]

If we had much more severe flatspots/hotspots this unrealistic way of heating tyres would be automatically fixed.

[IDUI]

Originally Posted by MikeB
Bah, i don't really care. Hotlapping is hotlapping - if you prefer to drive 5 laps to heat up your tires just do it. If you prefer burnouts and driving backwards to shorten the time for warming up - just do it :nod:.
So where is the problem? Everyone can do it the way he likes. In the end there is only ONE rule that counts: HLVC.
Hotlapping is all about ONE lap. I dont care how the lap is started, i even would say respect to people that have some creative lines and techiques. Just watch, learn and improve :thumb:

Originally Posted by tailing
The way I see it hotlapping itself isn't very realistic so defining what is realistic behaviour when hotlapping is kinda a moot point.
If I happened to be in a "hotlapping" situation in real life I'm pretty certain there would be nothing stopping me from driving backwards or doing burnouts or whatever.
I dunno, I don't feel that strongly either way but find some of these discussions about what is and isn't realistic in a computer game a bit strange.



What they said.


And, can't you switch to mouse to warm up tires/swirve and then switch back to wheel for the actual laping?

[DEVIL 007]

What they said.
And, can't you switch to mouse to warm up tires/swirve and then switch back to wheel for the actual laping?


Quite funny....and what other bizzare suggestion you will have?

[hackerx]

And, can't you switch to mouse to warm up tires/swirve and then switch back to wheel for the actual laping?

No. Switching controllers stops replay recording.

[Jonesy_]

For me this suggestion sounds like waste of time.
At least when talking about starting from the pits or denying the wrongway driving.
The only difference I can see here is it would take more time to get the actual hotlap started. And the tires will get heated one way or the other anyways.
The slider thing for prewarming the tires with the current system when you´re starting from the last split of the track, I do agree.

[IDUI]

Quite funny....and what other bizzare suggestion you will have?
You find my attempt to help you funny?

[GianniC]

I support the idea of a pre setuped start tyre temperature. +1!
Starting from pits won't help, people will keep doing those bizare things .. :shrug:

[DEVIL 007]

You find my attempt to help you funny?
No just the way I should make it.
This is one of the best simulators around and I should take such a approach to it?Someone watching me and I explaining him this is the best simulator would have to laugh hearing the word simulator.

[IDUI]

What makes this a great sim is the physics. I'm sure the developers will look into issues like prewarmed tires closer to complition of the project. For now all we can do is enjoy what we have. Then again, if noone would ever complain some ideas, perhaps, would never exist. :scratchch

Besides, it's fun to warm up the XFG. :D

[Linsen]

The way I see it hotlapping itself isn't very realistic so defining what is realistic behaviour when hotlapping is kinda a moot point.
If I happened to be in a "hotlapping" situation in real life I'm pretty certain there would be nothing stopping me from driving backwards or doing burnouts or whatever.
I dunno, I don't feel that strongly either way but find some of these discussions about what is and isn't realistic in a computer game a bit strange.
Exactly what he said. After all, hotlapping doesn't simulate any rL racing I know of, it's just a nice feature of LFS, that gives some neat statistics (if you care for that kind of info, that is). So why should it be more complicated and time consuming than necessary? And if you're racing on a server with qualifying the whole "hotlapping" business works exactly as it does in rL anyway.

[DEVIL 007]

And if you're racing on a server with qualifying the whole "hotlapping" business works exactly as it does in rL anyway.

Well the hotlaping mode is close to quali mode in real life...lets say.

Except you cant upload that qualtime to LFS world as hotlap.:D

[Execution Style]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Execution Style
Not exactly in the same subject, but on-topic for the thread..
anyone else ever had a problem with the idea that a hotlap is invalid after driving on the grass or dirt *on a rallycross circuit* ??? :pillepall


ehm what's the problem.. just keep 2 wheels on track (dirt, not grass) like driving on any other track :scratchch

It's not really a big problem... it's just that the rules of rallycross don't include keeping two wheels on the track. If a rallycross driver accidentally goes into a field, he doesn't get a penalty for being off the track. hehe

The only time this "feature" really bugs me is when I am driving bl2 rev.. when you are leaving the backstretch piece of asphalt and you turn left onto the gravel heading down hill there, if you cut very close to the wall, you can get a "hotlap invalid: dirt". Christ, I'm heading directly off the asphalt onto a gravel road :really: :D

Still, the hotlap rules system is to stop cheating so I'm not putting this in the suggestion forum.. I just decided to rant a little about this while the subject was up :shy:

[Tukko]

The only time this "feature" really bugs me is when I am driving bl2 rev.. when you are leaving the backstretch piece of asphalt and you turn left onto the gravel heading down hill there, if you cut very close to the wall, you can get a "hotlap invalid: dirt". Christ, I'm heading directly off the asphalt onto a gravel road :really: :D
pff yeah I know that feeling :schwitz::x

And it's annoying too when you're hotlapping on some SO track.. little touch with wall and it's invalid lap, even tho there's really no chance to cheat (except last turn @ SO sprint2). But guess we just have to live with this feature :shrug:

[Hallen]

The way I see it hotlapping itself isn't very realistic so defining what is realistic behaviour when hotlapping is kinda a moot point.
If I happened to be in a "hotlapping" situation in real life I'm pretty certain there would be nothing stopping me from driving backwards or doing burnouts or whatever.
I dunno, I don't feel that strongly either way but find some of these discussions about what is and isn't realistic in a computer game a bit strange.

Exactly!

A simulator recreates the rules of physics for a certain purpose. It does not recreate the rules of a track or common sense. As little as possible is scripted.

It may not be realistic BEHAVIOR by the drivers, but it is perfectly realistic and understandable. But I would also argue that our behavior in the sim will vary greatly with our behavior in the real world... and that is part of the beauty of a sim. One of the beauties of using a Sim is the ability to repetitively do something in a short period of time, and that is what happens with hotlaps, they are getting to the meat of the problem.

I also have a problem with certain behaviors in the sim, but there is not much you can do about it.
A case in point of the behavior thing: The last chicane on KY GP Long is usually cut at about 120mph in the XRR hotlaps slamming over the curb and the speed bumps. No driver in his right mind would attempt that more than once in the real world.

[undertaker00]

Shut up
And drive :D

[Fetzo]

anyone else ever had a problem with the idea that a hotlap is invalid after driving on the grass or dirt *on a rallycross circuit* ??? :pillepall


...no problem at all. a rallycross track like every other track has it's boundaries and you are supposed to drive within these boundaries. in rallycross the same rules apply like in on tarmac racing. just because the track is not entirely made of tarmac, it doesn't mean you can drive where you want.

...and for the online racers....YES, you have to race clean on rallycross tracks too.


edit: does a driver in a tarmacrace get a penalty if he accidentally goes offtrack? i didn't knew that.

[Jimmy Pursey]

I vote for:


+ Tire preheating system

+ Start from the pits

+ HLVC indicates "invalid" for going backwards

[-Alex-]

If you want realism how about starting in the pits, make your way out to the grid for the formation lap and then the start......

[Bluebird B B]

What is the point??? Tyres are already pre-heated. If it was not, you would start with tyres at 22 celcius or something like that. For some reason tyres can' t be pre-heated to 100 celcius, i gues it would reqiure too much energy is needed which batterys cannot supply on the startgrid.

Also with hotlapping you should start in pits, just as it should with qualifying and practice.

Well, thats my opinion :)

[SparkyDave]

I am against preheated(hotter than now) tyres as I like the fact that in a long race after pit/tyre change you have to drive a lap or 2 on colder tyres and warm them up to get back on the pace . OK I know its not hotlapping but still a valid point?.

I think going backwards in HLVC mode should result in invalid hl but of course the next lap could still be ok , so maybe reverse driving should result in spec , pit or time penalty?

other than that warm the tyres any way you like :)

Ohh and starting for the pits seems more realistic to me :D

SD.

[RudiTurbo]

umm, starting from pits :pillepall

I dunno, but I dont want to cruise 4 minutes on Aston GP with my UF, before I can go for it :shrug:

The hotlapping system is like perfecto, dont come whinging about something that works well.
Preheating the tyres is the only good idea in this thread.

One thing is saying You want to start from pits, the other thing is to actually start from pits and do those 800 hotlaps for Nutter rank ¬_¬

[richy]

:thumb: for pre heated tyres

im new to hotlapping and my car is the XFR, the problem im finding is that the rears just dont heat up doing laps, you really need to get that back end sliding to get them running nicely, i can actually feel the car driving better after i have snaked the car down the road and all 4 tyres are glowing green. but to do that "drifting" is pretty hard and im constantly getting invalid hotlaps because i 1) hit the grass with a wheel 2) hit a barrier while doing 3 point turns or sliding 3) burn up the tyres too much 4) roll the car over 5) bend the suspension.

this is without even starting my hotlap where i also do 1)-5)...

so yeah i find it rather frustrating doing that stuff, but i hope i will get used to it and be able to limit the amount of restarting i got to do.

it takes a while to do all that heating up and then u hit a barrier in south city and you got to do it all again.

oh well it wont stop me carrying on with how it is for now

[sinbad]

umm, starting from pits :pillepall

I dunno, but I dont want to cruise 4 minutes on Aston GP with my UF, before I can go for it :shrug:

It would be an inconvenience, but not exactly the end of the world. I'm sure the nutters would manage it, and it would just "look" better to start from your pit garage.

Aside from hotlapping, qualifying sessions should ALL be started from the pits, no exceptions. The current staggered system doesn't even work very well, and gives racers in certain positions, i.e 1st and last on the road usually, a significant and unfair advantage.

[ORION]

I guess this "starting from the pits" is about the same thing as random damage. It will bring unecessary drawbacks to the game, which are not worth the tiny bit of additional realism, because the loss of fun and playability outweigh.
This is the point where you have to decide whether you make a game, or a simulation, and LFS is still a very good game! Maybe the best game which is also a decent simulation :)

I agree with sinbad, though, regarding ONLINE qualifications. Starting out of the pits makes indeed sense and will have just about no disadvantages.