race etiquet ?

[tinvek]

i was spectating yesterday on a bl server with bf1's racing and the following occured (note im not faulting either driver)

driver a had finished the previous race with a fastest lap which was over a second faster than the rest of the field.

after the usual start chaos he was coming through the field and coming out of the last right hander he found 2 other drivers ,b and c(original names eh?) in front and going a bit below racing speed, presumably after a passing move in the right hander.

driver a decides to go to outside of b as he aproaches last bend only for b to move across and push him off into barrier.

a vented his feelings at b but was unaware that c had made a move up inside and b had given him room, obviuosly not seeing a as his mind was taken up with the battle he was already having. once a was informed of this there was no problem.(it should be said that a was p*ssed of cos in previous race hed been collected by a car leaving pitlane)

now this got me thinking about b's actions and just what you should do when someone tries to pass

if the car is behind and not level, should you :-

a, give room for the pass to be attempted

or

b, close the door on them?

i've no feelings either way and can imagine arguments for both but just wondered what the general feelings were in the forum.

[rAcEr2418]

Well it depends, I have read numerous racing etiquette books, rule books etc., and basicly, it comes to this, the person inside has the right of way. If your outside of a turn, and a driver is able to get his car level with, say your rear wing, or rear-right tyre, by the time you get to the kurve, the person inside should technically get the right of way through the turn. Now if driver C is outside both, its a no-brainer, he gives way to the two, then can look forward to the next overtaking oppurtunity. It only makes for closer, smarter, and cleaner racing :nod: . Now people don't always do it this way, but I find it only polite.

In fact, I was in a race today, and was inside of a driver going into the high-speed turn 1 at AS_Gp, now, as i said (and it definetely applies here because of the nature of the turn) I should have been able to have a clean pass, instead, this driver closed the door on me and thus wrecked out, I actually caught the slide and kept on. He consequently put up the "hmmmm....thx for that" - I was shocked :pillepall I HAD the right of way, but hey, either way, its just racing.

But anyway, thats my take on it!

Regards,

SennARaCeR

[danowat]

It's all about overlap, if the driver on the inside has enough overlap (more than 50%?) on the driver on the outside then they have right of way.

In racing its not always that black & white, as many factors can make a difference.

Dan,

[Hoellsen]

If that is what your racing etiquette books say, they are shit. There is no such thing as right of way, there is only respect for the other and the dire need to negotiate the track without running into each other. Therefore: if you are running through a turn with 2 cars next to each other, both cars need to respect the fact that another car is there. This especially comes true for your T1 occurence: both of you should have respected each other and carried on with slightly less speed than usual and I am sure both of you would have made it safely through the turn.

This does involve not trying to pass where it makes a pass totally unsafe which opening a third line in a turn would be the case.

[Blowtus]

respect only goes so far, shutting the door on someone trying to stick their nose up the inside unfairly is perfectly fair :) Otherwise all you'd have to do to pass would be to barge in with no talent and wait for the other driver to 'respect' you...

[rAcEr2418]

I am not saying to just completely let one go, but what I was getting at is respect - respect is a given. Thats what i mean though, he just closed the door on me, which is wrong, I am as you said, more safe/slow when other cars are around... but there you go, respect and right of way, it just means, I have the right to have a clean attempt at the turn, and consequently a pass because I am inside, he should not, nor anyone should close the door knowing that. The risks outway the gain.

[Hoellsen]

Otherwise all you'd have to do to pass would be to barge in with no talent

That in itself isn't respecting the other driver, is it? :) So no need to argue any further. :)

but there you go, respect and right of way, it just means, I have the right to have a clean attempt at the turn, and consequently a pass because I am inside, he should not, nor anyone should close the door knowing that.

Okay, misunderstanding then. I thought you meant "I'm inside, I can choose any line I want because I have right of way". Right to a clean pass: yes, all for it. :)

[(AR)Göran]

in reply to post 1.

Generally speaking the responsibility to avoid crashes is on the the one coming from behind. Also generally speaking if you are in front you have the right to change line once without penalty, changing line twice is blocking and isnt allowed (european racing, F1...american racing has slightly different rules, especially according to the very popolar discussion subject of blue flag..)

But. The right to chance line once must of course be used with caution. If someone already has put his/her nose inside you, you cant of course not, change the line because you will cause a crash.

In the example you were given that you spectated, i would say responibility lay on the guy that was trying to pass from behind, the huy in the middle could not do anothing else then waht he did imho. But its hard to say something without knowing ( actually have seen) what the first car in the line did.

Its easier to drive if having the general rule of never hit anyone from behind in mind while driving online. Its also a very good point already said by Hoellsen, that both cars need to respect each other, both are there and have the right of being there.

Göran

[RMachucaA]

Its also refeered to as "racecraft".

Trying to be in the right place at the right time without having drive someone off the road to get there, or block like a mindless nfsu nitro addicted kid.

To be honest, most of the fast guys dont have it.... i've raced a lot of the fast guys in lfs, and i must say that it leaves a lot to be desired. And the medium to fast racers in lfs are the best in that regard.

Maybe its because i've attended quite a few track day's and heard the instructors constantly remind us of proper racecraft...

It also has to do with properly showing your intentions, make the move and stick to it, and when lapping slower traffic, make sure they see you, if they dont give way, start shining the chrome horns.

[Becky Rose]

If they dont have significant overlap I take my line, BUT in LFS if I dont know the driver i'll sometimes give more room than I necessarily should just to save having a crash, even though it's my line.

I play online quite a lot and only had 1 accident in the last fortnight as a result of taking my line from a driver who felt the line was his, I kind of knew it would end in tears - but the line was mine so I held it and .... We didn't argue over it, it happened, next race we try again.

At the end of the day you have to accept that racing ettiquette isn't as good outside of the leagues as it is in real racing. In the leagues it's very high although there's still drivers who, much like in real racing, just havn't got a clue - the difference is everyone is 'trying' to behave - even if they aren't fully conversant with the ettiquette of racing.

For the most part I just accept that crashing out unecessarily is a part of LFS but even I can get annoyed, like last night after the 4th race in a row I got 'unlucky', when in the last race the driver infront started in the middle of the grid 8 seconds after everybody else... I just called it a night.

[BluesmanSF]

Now, if everyone would race and think like you guys, the LFS would be 300% more entertaining. I'm not saying everyone is a determined wrecker, or just can't obey the etiquette, but it usually needs just a one or two to cause a havoc, no matter if the rest 20 would be all the most behaving racers.

Although, besides those BMW wreckfests, races have been VERY clean and polite recently, which have led to rewarding races.

IMO, this kind of thread explaining the racing etiquette properly, and simply enough should be made sticky.

JVT

[letdown427]

In that situation, I think the driver a should have been aware that b and c were tussling, and as such should have perhaps beena bit more patient before trying to hack around the outisde.

Obviously I don't know the differences in just how juch faster a was going into the corner than b and c, but as was said, it's the responsibility to some extent of the guy behind not to hit the guy infront. This is true even on ski slopes! I think it is even more true in LFS than in real life, given the lack of peripheral vision, and the fact that the mirrors are very small, and in many cases may be on very low level of detail for the sake of frame rates...

[colcob]

Well in my opinion, regardless of who was right or wrong, a good racer ought to know better than to try and overtake two other battling slower cars mid corner.

Thats called 'putting yourself in harms way' and is not very sensible racecraft. If he was that much faster it would have been much more sensible to hang back during the entry to the turn, then make a faster exit and pass both cars on the next straight.

[Gunn]

Well in my opinion, regardless of who was right or wrong, a good racer ought to know better than to try and overtake two other battling slower cars mid corner.

Thats called 'putting yourself in harms way' and is not very sensible racecraft. If he was that much faster it would have been much more sensible to hang back during the entry to the turn, then make a faster exit and pass both cars on the next straight.I agree.

[Spies]

I find that you have a much more enjoyable race if you don't go aggressive on every corner, if you treat other racers with respect you get the same back.

Only problem with yielding when you're 2 abreast is when you both yield: A night or so ago on so1 into the chicane me and a friend both yielded, managed to squeeze through side by side somehow :scratchch

[mkinnov8]

Respect for others and Being Track Aware of others....

Everyone should have track awareness, but the driver trying to overtake two slower battling cars should be able to see where they will be placing thier cars, as well as where they place thier own car.

I would say be slow and wait, but thats not always good in LFS as some opertunist will come and do the one thing that will wipe you all out. But track knowledge, knowing alternate lines, where there is hidden grip, will always help and get you outta trouble.

Drivers being lapped or not should be aware of other faster cars on the racetrack, but also faster drivers on the track should be aware and respectful of those who are slower and be prepared to give and take.

In reference to the first post...

I would say driver A should have waited for a few seconds and seen what panned out on the track ahead, if someone else is making a move with another car, they are gonna be watching that other car and consentrating on that. A would have every right to be angry... for about a second, remember there are others racing.

But some people just dont like to be overtaken on the track, particularly some of the more experienced guys, makes me laugh so much when braking for a corner, and some experienced guy is up the inside, at a much higher speed, then have the cheek to blame the driver traveling at the right speed for turning in and contact...

But that there is a whole different can of worms.

[Honey]

sometimes i saw three guys doing a dirty team tactic:
the first go faster as he can alone, the second and the third crash everyone's trying to pass and on straights they put one behind the other using slipstream BUT the third instead of passing the second it bumps him to get both higher speed, but as i said if someone is fast enough to catch them they will crash you, each race they switch roles...

[mrodgers]

sometimes i saw three guys doing a dirty team tactic:
the first go faster as he can alone, the second and the third crash everyone's trying to pass and on straights they put one behind the other using slipstream BUT the third instead of passing the second it bumps him to get both higher speed, but as i said if someone is fast enough to catch them they will crash you, each race they switch roles...
What the heck kind of enjoyment would they get out of that? Sheesh! I don't get anything in return for winning a race no matter what. I don't do this professionally and get paid cash. I do get immense satisfaction of battling against someone for an entire race and beating him in the end, not neccessarily for first place. I get immense satisfaction on following someone I know is much faster than me and staying on their tail for an entire race. It's what the online racing is all about. Who cares if you come in first?

[STRAHD]

I dont play for places either, just try to get a good battle goin no matter what place anyone ends up in. As for the passing, if you have half a car on me the line and corner are yours, if Im the one ahead your not getting my place, but I still try to leave room cause I wanna crash as much as the next guy which is never. I had some real good close racing on Chops server yesterday, back and forth between 1st and 2nd, 3rd n` 4th, and when I got bumped by the other guy and hit the wall in one race should I have gotten mad, if so then I should just give up cause all I did was tip my hat to him for keeping his car on the raod.

[Honey]

What the heck kind of enjoyment would they get out of that? Sheesh! I don't get anything in return for winning a race no matter what. I don't do this professionally and get paid cash. I do get immense satisfaction of battling against someone for an entire race and beating him in the end, not neccessarily for first place. I get immense satisfaction on following someone I know is much faster than me and staying on their tail for an entire race. It's what the online racing is all about. Who cares if you come in first?
what can i say evidently some people live for charts/stats, i agree it's no fun or honor to win like that, i always preferred an enjoyable close clean fight, rather than a lonely victory, also following a faster racer teaches a lot of things, while waiting behind a slower one on a difficult to pass track teached me a lot on how to prepare a safe pass...i guess those people don't even know how much fun they are NOT having :D

[mrodgers]

As for the passing, if you have half a car on me the line and corner are yours, if Im the one ahead your not getting my place, but I still try to leave room cause I wanna crash as much as the next guy which is never.
Another point, this in the quote is the way you should be racing according to many team and club rules (ie. CRC rules). If there is half a car overlap (which is where you would see the other car), then he has the right to the corner. Though it doesn't mean totally give it up, as you should be leaving him room at the apex and he should be leaving you room at exit. The problem is, some racers will dive in at the last minute and expect to be left room when they don't have efficient overlap and the car being passed can't see him. Therefore, the being passed car will "close the door" unintentionally because he can't see the other car and the passing car will get upset because he got "the door closed on him", many times resulting in a ban/kick vote and others blindly pressing 1 to vote without seeing it. This is unacceptable in my eyes as the first car didn't know he was there.

It changes a bit if you are racing with the same guys/gals you've been racing with for a long time. At the end of the P/Q patch, I raced for months on the CRC demo server with many other CRC member/admins as well as non members who frequented the server every night. Many times we would get into battles with side by side racing that lasted for several laps without anyone wacking anyone else off the track. Racing on Blackwood, side by side for lap after lap, looking left 80% of the time while the guy beside you is looking right 80% of the time without contact and running decently fast times gives immense satisfation.

[Becky Rose]

I would like to make clear that just because I didn't leave room when I slammed the door on you wasn't necessarily because of poor etiquette.

I might just be a bad driver with only partial control over the direction of my car... :)

[Hyperactive]

I did not really understand the description of what was happening but imho everyone should drive so that contact should be avoided at all costs. It never does anything good when you have one tire pointing 45 degrees into wrong direction. Not even if it was 100% not your fault.

Still I find it a bit scary that I have to check my mirrors after the long straight at AS nat because there may be someone who hasn't found the brake pedal...

[DeadWolfBones]

Well in my opinion, regardless of who was right or wrong, a good racer ought to know better than to try and overtake two other battling slower cars mid corner.

Thats called 'putting yourself in harms way' and is not very sensible racecraft. If he was that much faster it would have been much more sensible to hang back during the entry to the turn, then make a faster exit and pass both cars on the next straight.

Agreed.

And as RMach said, sometimes the really fast guys tend to lack patience, which leads to moves like this one. You have to take your time and wait for a legitimate opening, no matter how quickly your gap over the guy behind is closing up. And for god's sake, don't lay on the blue flag message button or start jamming on your horn.

:)

[tinvek]

now ther's been a few posts i'll say what i felt at time :)

a had a sufficient speed advantage (at least 1 sec per lap and a 10 lap race) that he didn't need t make the pass, he could have waited, there was only b, c and 1 other car in front of him and it was first lap. given his straight line speed (low downforce setup i assume) he could have passed at least 1, if not both of b & c on the straight after the last bend.

also it would have been in his favour to have hung back and then gone through last bend at his best speed with the aim of catching the car in front just after the exit.

slightky offtopic and going back to the blue flag debate

yesterday whilst watching san marino gp, it was noted by brundle that the skill when leading was to juggle you speed so you catch backmarkers at a point were you can pass straight away, rather than either being forced to wait and risk being passed or make a dodgy lapping manouver. maybe some people could take a lesson from this rather than insisting on lapping flat out and then having a hissy fit hen they get taken off by a backmarker, after all in real life you dont run every lap at qualifying pace, you have holdups, if your 8 secs in front, you can afford to wait till after the bend to lap someone.

[Hyperactive]

Probably he meant just Montoya by that waiting a good place to make a pass ;)

[colcob]

Yeah, and on the subject of really fast guys and leaving room on the exit.
I remember a while ago, when I was just starting to get reasonably competitive, I ended up having a really good battle with an alien who shall remain nameless on FE gold, keeping him behind me for a lap or so. But running down the long straight along the tram tracks, he got really close then made a move into the lefthander at the end.

I could see he'd probably get alongside, so I left a cars width at the apex. He got three quarters past me in the turn, then moved all the way over to the right hand kerb on exit assuming that he'd cleared me, but he hadnt and so his rear quarter hit my front quarter, sending him spinning off to the right.

He had a bit of a go at me, and at the time I wasnt really sure what had happened so grovelled apologies in the presence of the master. But on watching the replay is was as clear as day that it was his mistake. He'd just assumed he was so much faster than he would have cleared me in the corner, and didnt leave a cars width on the exit.

[Becky Rose]

so grovelled apologies in the presence of the master
Sometimes I say sorry no matter what because it's easier to just stick your hand up and admit blame than upset someone, but I do sometimes despair at how fickle the LFS population is. In the real racing I do appologies are rarely made, a race is long (I do enduro) and it's hard to hold a grudge until the chequered flag - you just have to get on with it.

Saying sorry seems to be somewhat mandatory in LFS - whether it's your own fault or not. I've probably got a reputation for crashing by my name appearing in big pink letters on everyones screen saying "sorry" every 5 laps, but better than then a teenage hormone junkie throwing a hissie fit !

[Gunn]

A would have every right to be angry.Why would he have any right to be angry?

[jayhawk]

If someone behind me is significantly faster, I will let off the gas and let them through or go wide on a corner.

This is why I like to start on the grid next to last ( and because im slow anyway) that way let the agressive ones sort it out in the first corner. I also like being the hunter, its more of a challenge to me.

So, if you see me on the track, the only reason you may of spin out because of me is becuase of an error in trying to read what the faster will be doing.

Its great to win, but not everyone can be the winner. So I let the leaders go by; anything less is uncouth.

[richy]

Sometimes I say sorry no matter what because it's easier to just stick your hand up and admit blame than upset someone, but I do sometimes despair at how fickle the LFS population is. In the real racing I do appologies are rarely made, a race is long (I do enduro) and it's hard to hold a grudge until the chequered flag - you just have to get on with it.

Saying sorry seems to be somewhat mandatory in LFS - whether it's your own fault or not. I've probably got a reputation for crashing by my name appearing in big pink letters on everyones screen saying "sorry" every 5 laps, but better than then a teenage hormone junkie throwing a hissie fit !

too true this, i say sorry even if i didnt hit someone but got wobbly on exit of a corner or something

[SatCP]

If there's one thing I hate, it's taking off another car by accident. So I try to avoid it at all costs, but of course that doesn't always work.

I like battling for position, but when I see a car is coming in from behind at a much higher pace than my own, I usually let it pass without much trouble. I often use my direction lights to sign that I'm staying at one side of the track so he can make a safe pass without confusion. Of course I could try to hold him behind me and defend my position, but what's the point? It will only make the faster driver more angry and in the end force him to do stupid things in which we both may go off.

However, when I see the incoming car is running at more or less the same pace (I'm faster in sector x, the other's faster in sector y) then I like a good fight. But, even though I do look around a lot and try to leave enough room for a fair fight, it frequently happens that I push it a bit too far in the heat of the moment. It's rare I take someone out on the entry of a turn, but it happened more than once I lost control on the exit by stepping too early on the accellerator pedal in the hope to stay ahead. When I'm on the inside it's usually just me spinning, but when I'm on the outside the car slides across the track taking the car on the inside with me.

Of course, it happens the other way around too. But although regrettable, those are just racing incidents.

And some people just choose idiot moments to place an overtaking maneuver. Like in Aston's chicane. With Patch S/T the chicane became a lot easier, but with the previous patch the chicane was quite hard if you pushed. I usually needed every inch of space the chicane offered, but still there were people trying to overtake through the chicane, either forcing me off the track, or both going off.

[travbrad]

Hey, wanted to get your opinions on something else. Yesterday after beating this guy a few times on blackwod with BF1, i was in 2nd right behind him and had pulled up close enough to draft after the first chicane (long back straight). He proceeded to swerve back and forth down the entire straight so that i couldn't pick up a draft. Is it just me, or is this kinda sad and pathetic? I had passed him there in the couple races before so i guess that's how he dealt with it, but it just seems "cheap" to me. Do you guys agree that that's poor racing etiquette?

[rAcEr2418]

Well its pretty annoying. He probably really wanted to win, and just didnt want to let you go. It's pretty unrealistic as well. I don't really like that. That was a little tactic on the oval, but I mean, on Blackwood, I dont see that as being very mature. I don't really like that type of stuff. I hope you won though :thumb:

[AeoIus]

I just like to drive around and am not really bothered by racing incidents that happen to me. I've been hit a lot of times and unfortunately I've hit others quite a lot of times. The last is usually just poor control of my own vehicle, because I just suck at LFS :D (slowly improving though :P)
Whatever happens I'll usually say "Sorry, my fault" and don't really care if it really is my fault or not. When I hit someone in any way I probably could have avoided it in any way and could have made that effort.

As for me I like to leave room in corners whenever I expect there might be even a slight overlap. If somebody is behind me and I no longer see him/her directly in my rearview mirror I start driving wider lines, because I expect them to be a little beside me. This is poor position defending, but invites close door to door racing which is fun. I don't care what position I'm driving in at all, just as long as there is someone close to have a bit of a 'race' with I'm happy and smiling through every mistake I make :D

[travbrad]

^Same here, i tend to leave too much room for people to pass. I'd rather have a fun race than end up crashing into each other. I've had some surprisingly good races with the bf1 already. Some races i've swapped positions with someone close to 10 times in a relatively short race. Very fun stuff :D

[DarkTimes]

I do this as well to my own detriment. I'm not aggresive enough sometimes because I want to avoid an accident, so I leave too much room and people pass me easily. Also one problem I find is that if you try to drive very defensively and make your car as wide as possible, people will just try to blast past you anyway and hit you off, so often it's less hassle just to let people pass. Often people decide that they're going to make a pass stick in a corner and don't ease off no matter what you do. I used to race in leagues with clean drivers who were much faster than me, so I learned how to drive very defensively and effectively. But it's hard to find a situation where you can put that sort of skill into practice in LFS. Especially when you race with the mindset of not causing any accidents...

[Chris_Kerry]

Answering to the original post and noting I haven't read any of the others :), I think that you'll never get an exact answer to how a race should be raced. It's a matter o common sense and no-one will ever agree fully. Just look at top level motorsport these days, crashes and differences of opinion happen all the time.

You just have to acknowledge a mistake when you know you are in the wrong.

[Becky Rose]

He proceeded to swerve back and forth down the entire straight so that i couldn't pick up a draft. Is it just me, or is this kinda sad and pathetic?
This is a major problem in LFS, even in the league i'm in I made a post about it and somebody said that it's fine to do this and what's the problem?

It isn't, technically you are moving to block and then you are moving back to your line, then you are moving to block and then... and so on.

It's illegal in real racing because it's unsafe and unsporting, and in LFS it can be even more dangerous because a missed packet can make your little lateral movement into a full on latent sideswipe.

This little annoyance can be really annoying sometimes because you know that if the other driver was also playing by the rules you'd have got past, but there's no cause for recourse in LFS :/.

You're allowed to block and then you are allowed to return to your line - this actually does give significant leeway already and can stalemate two fairly evenly matched competitors on most tracks, but if you let the driver behind get close enough on the corner that leads to a long strait - you've lost it, fair and square ...

[Blowtus]

avoiding a draft isn't exactly blocking though, as the other car is much further back, so it gets a little grey there to my mind.

[richy]

because the guy in the draft is travelling faster it will turn into a block eventually

me personally, i like to let someone use all my draft if he gets a PB from it then thats sweet! :)

[Gunn]

He proceeded to swerve back and forth down the entire straight so that i couldn't pick up a draft.He would be disqualified in real racing.

[Djbob]

Can someone point me to an example of a rule or incident where someone has been disqualified for swerving to disrupt the slipstream (say 20-30 metres behind - not swerving to physically block the car which if you are infront you can do once, but presumably only comes into effect when the two cars are within a close proximity).

I dont do it anymore in LFS because I think most accept it is unsporting and specifically not allowed in some leagues but is there actually a rule against it in real-life?

[MyBoss]

I dont do it anymore in LFS because I think most accept it is unsporting and specifically not allowed in some leagues but is there actually a rule against it in real-life?


Yes. I don't think the rule is very old though, not shure.