LFS "demo" users

[John Hilton]

ok i just like to start by saying this is not a demo hater thread, i'm a member of cargames.nl and we have a popular server for demo users to use.

i used demo for a few "years" back in the day, and because i was impressed bought the game got more content and the devs got alittle pay rise aswell :D lol.

my question is this. demo is like s0 if you will..... you can play as long as you want with 3 cars and one track (iirc). people play it for years, and even tho demo players in some cases do go on the buy the game and support the devs and development, some dont. they have played for years will continue too.

so.... should the demo version be restricted so once people have tried and tested lfs they have to buy to continue to play?

limited number of laps / time maybe?

again not a demo flame, just wanted to know peoples opinions. after all DEMO is demo.

[[RCG]Boosted]

no.
a lot ppl cant afford it (like i couldnt for over a year) or are fine with the free content.

the demo users dont do harm when they play longer.
actually, the long time demo'ers usually behave better than new ones.

an even there was a limit, ppl would get around it.
im just not seeing the point.
forcing ppl to buy something isnt any good.

[UnknownMaster21]

Boosted;1470283']no.
a lot ppl cant afford it (like i couldnt for over a year) or are fine with the free content.

the demo users dont do harm when they play longer.
actually, the long time demo'ers usually behave better than new ones.

an even there was a limit, ppl would get around it.
im just not seing the point.
forcing ppl to buy something isnt any good.


+1

It should stay as it is now

[hazaky]

Boosted;1470283']forcing ppl to buy something isnt any good.
Its not forcing ... eh.

I would say, a 60min timelimit for multiplayer and unlimited for singleplayer. Should be fairly easy to do, not so crackable and yeah ... that would fair compared to the current situation. It needs to be restricted. :shrug:

[delray25]

In the past, it has been clearly spelled out why the demo is the way it is. By the people who made it so. At the time, there were plenty of people voicing their opinion, those opinions pretty much covered the spectrum of all possible opinions, from "I don't care" to ... ah well, nevermind.

Why anyone would want to dig up this old hat is beyond me, the only possible results will be the fizzle of tired responses you got already, or exactly what you are trying so hard to avoid, namely a demo flame war. In any case, a reasonable effort at forum search should give more than enough opinions, the whole range of it, up and down several times over.

[Gaiajohan]

I would say, a 60min timelimit for multiplayer and unlimited for singleplayer. Should be fairly easy to do, not so crackable and yeah ... that would fair compared to the current situation. It needs to be restricted. :shrug:
No, because they'd create a new nickname to be able to play online again.


so.... should the demo version be restricted so once people have tried and tested lfs they have to buy to continue to play?

limited number of laps / time maybe?


No, because they'd create a new nickname to be able to play again.

[bunder9999]

No, because they'd create a new nickname to be able to play again.

like some don't already, they abuse them to disrupt servers. :shrug:

[[RCG]Boosted]

Its not forcing ... eh.
it is...what else?
if ud have a timelimit that has expired and u want to play...u are forced to buy it.

[farcar]

Boosted;1470303']it is...what else?
if ud have a timelimit that has expired and u want to play...u are forced to buy it.

To keep playing, purchasing the game would be required under the OP's suggestion, but nobody is forced to do anything. There's a big difference.

I like the idea of limiting the demo. I'd do it by limiting the number of laps you're allowed to race online to say 100. After that you could continue to play demo combos offline, or choose to buy a license.

That's how I'd do it, but I'm obviously not as generous as the devs are. :)

[TehPaws3D]

Yet all you guys posting are S2'd, I don't have the money to buy it yet, Not on my card, At least, And it would be very unfair for me as i have already ran 400+ laps in a XFG (I believe) So.. Wtf? I'd instantly get kicked off or something? D=

And secondly.. Why do you need to change something if it isn't broken..?

[jakeeatworld]

I think limiting the lap-count or having a time based online demo period is fair.
I'm going to quote someone from that I was on last night,
"How can something that is free be unfair?"

I fully agree with that quote and I'm going to apply it here.

If you are not willing to pay for the game then, in my strong opinion you do not have the rights to complain. Kinda like the voting system yes? You don't vote, you get no say.

The demo accounts are fairly limited, with only 3 cars, 3 tracks and no legit way of uploading a skin it must get very boring for you guys, which does hint that some people just do not have the money to pay for the game. But say, if the demo was limited to 500 laps per car & track combo that is 2500 laps (3000 FBM + BL2) and after you have played them laps hopefully you would have had enough time to put a couple of €/£/$ away to then buy the game because the limit would have spurred you on to be able to keep your online statistics and user-name.

[TehPaws3D]

I think limiting the lap-count or having a time based online demo period is fair.
I'm going to quote someone from that I was on last night,
"How can something that is free be unfair?"

Well first, I don't see What It is hurting for us to be racing one track with three cars (Four if you count all the configurations) I mean, I haven't been here all that long, But surely it's been like this for a long time.. What changed so recently?

Second... What about the kids with their moms (OK, I'm probably REALLY stretching this out, But meh) Won't buy them any games, I think it would be very sad to see our community say "No.. Sorry.. But you've done your time.. Pay or leave" I mean, It's perfectly Legal, Nothing can say it isn't, You haven't payed for it anyway, But it seems very unfair to the people on the other end of it, Which raises my question again; What exactly does it hurt..?

Sorta neutral on this idea now.. :shrug:

(Who likes time restricted/action restricted demos anyway? =P)

[Lible]

Doing such a thing would mean LFS losing one of its best features.

LFS also has a very unique demo community. Put some kinds of limits on the demo and demo leagues are history. Demo leagues are history and demo racers won't really have a good understanding of the wonderful leagues in S2.

There have been many demoers for whom it took many years to buy S2. Some people need more time to decide or gather the money. If the demo is locked after a short time, it is likely that they lose interest.

And then there's the fact that if not only the licenced content is locked but also the DEMO content is locked, many more people will start looking for cracks or workarounds, which is likely to lead them into unlocking all of the content. This will change the current demo community into an underground movement and may even lead to another master server for crackers. And with all the content available, S2 doesn't seem so attractive anymore

All in all, having a no-limits demo is very good as demo users have time to really get to know the game itself and the community playing it.

[adagio4lv]

i think no, because LFS is not kind of game, i`m sorry - simulator, u can fully figure out and relish 100% in short period of time. The longer someone is demo user, the better skill is reaches, therefore desire grows to try more powerful cars with different tracks :thumb:

[John Hilton]

delray25 (http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=36100) this isn't a demo flame war at all, i just wanted peoples opinions. sorry your offended.

Demo users plz note, you are most welcome to use the the S0 cargame.nl demo server.

just wanted to know what demo users and S users thought.

our forums for demo are here:

http://www.cargame.nl/forum/demo-server/

no offence intended

Admin plz lock thx

[EQ Worry]

I do not see why anyone would respond angrily at an attempt to open a discussion about demo. You think there's nothing to discuss, everything is perfect, healthy, with many years ahead? Wow, you're an optimist then. It could be so, but I do not believe it.

I personally care a lot about demo. I believe it is the core of LFS. Without healthy demo scene there'll be no new blood on licensed servers, and everyone would probably agree new blood is needed there, a lot. Thinking about demo should be a priority then, not some sideway matter.

Two and a half years ago there was a major change in demo. Reversed BL tracks were removed and unavailable to demo people. From my perspective, the effects of this action were purely negative. A large community, especially around BL2R was simply killed. A few bought S2, but most simply left LFS. It was a major blow and nobody will convince me it was not so. Since that day I see decline in LFS.

Except for one or two more smaller patches things did not move anywhere for two years now. In the past months, several times I was proposing to developers some changes to be made. Changes that would take from 5 minutes to one day max (estimate) to incorporate. Changes that could improve demo, breath new life there. There was no response.

My ideas for improvements:

1) Open again BL1R and BL2R for demo people. Closing down the tracks was bad for LFS, in my eyes, opening them again should have opposite effect.

2) Maybe limit demo usage by time, say to 3 or 6 months. When the time expires, gathered stats are completely erased and the demo username blocked, probably indefinitely. Sure, people can get new name, but at least stats on LFSW would be under control, which should make Victor happy.

3) If point 2 would be accepted, it would be cool to have an option to get real S0 licence. Unlimited demo usage, without time restriction, for something like 3 pounds. Many people would be willing to give this much. And many admins would be willing to organize demo series with S0 licences to the winners, simply because they're cheap. (Because how many demo competitions a year you can run if promising S2 licence to the winner?)

From my perspective, the above changes could have substantial positive impact and I do not think they involve extreme amount of work. Scawen needs only to open the tracks again. Victor would have a tougher job, but I believe it is mostly database manipulation and it could be workable.

Of course I may be wrong, both in assuming it would be good for LFS and in assuming it is not too much work for developers. But how could I or anyone else know if we do not try and if developers do not respond? My apologies to anyone who feels enraged by such proposals, but I see them as beneficial.

[Speedy J]

There can never be something wrong with opening a mature discussion John, don't feel quilty :detective

As far as I am concerned, I played demo for about half a year. For me it would not have been usefull to restrict demo-use to (for example) 100 laps coz I simply couldn't control any demo-car after 100 laps :shhh:

When I saw improvement (at last lol) I got interested in getting the S2 license. I feel that this goes for more (average) users. So if restricted usage would ever be subject, then I would agree with EQ Worry's second suggestion.

On the other hand I see a LOT of S0-racers who race very good and very fair. Would be a big loss, and a shame, if they were lost due to obligatory payment, even a payment for only a few bucks...

So.... a dilemma... :tempted:

PS Admin please DON'T lock this thread :D

[hazaky]

Boosted;1470303']it is...what else?
if ud have a timelimit that has expired and u want to play...u are forced to buy it.
No, its not forcing ... not even close to it. Its just that if u like the game, u will buy it. With demo, u can see how the game looks, how it plays and all kinds of stuff - and if u like it, then buy it. Demo is supposed to be a preview of the game.

[lfs-drift staff]

there is alot of game that provide an unlimited demo usage offline/online

dont push them to pay for play it will just take longuer before they purchase a license

i played 2 years on demo then someone temporary gave me his account ... when he took it back i had achieved too much on s2 to go back on demo so i bought the game ....

to realy push ppl to purchase s2 ... it would be a s2 time trial ... which is impossible to do

[dadge]

Yet all you guys posting are S2'd, I don't have the money to buy it yet, Not on my card, At least, And it would be very unfair for me as i have already ran 400+ laps in a XFG (I believe) So.. Wtf? I'd instantly get kicked off or something? D=

And secondly.. Why do you need to change something if it isn't broken..?don't you think that because you have 400+ "free" laps, it's unfair to the people who have paid for the game. a demo is meant to impress you enough to buy the full game. now, lets break the cost of LFS down a bit. it's £24 for S2 and £12 for S1. if you saved £1 per week, you'd have the money for LFS S1 in 3 months. S2 in 6 months. some demo users have been playing the demo for years on an internet connection that cost about the same as LFS S2 per month.
can't you see that 400+ laps on a demo is way more than enough to encourage you to buy the S2 content? having no money on your card is not LFS' problem.
imo, the demo should be restricted as already mentioned. i think my sig says it best.
EDIT: the way i see it, if you have no plans in buying LFS, then why should you have any content for an unlimited time?

[GreyBull [CHA]]

snip

From my demo times(this was 3 years ago anyway, might have changed since then!) I recall thatB L1R and BL2R were not so much used. And anyway I don't really understand why the people disappointed with the scrap of BL2R didn't switch back on BL2.

Anyway I totally agree with the rest of the post. Mega +1 for the S0 license idea.

[1Colin1]

Limiting the demo is a bad idea, I played the demo for years off and on, I enjoyed it but never enough to really want to buy it. The reason I ended up buying S2 was because I made friends with a few people on a demo server. We made a little team and had a few long races but after that we wanted more, so 4-6 of us bought S2 while the rest already had it. If the demo was limited that would of been 4-6 S2 licenses that would never of been purchased.

[dadge]

Limiting the demo is a bad idea, I played the demo for years off and on, I enjoyed it but never enough to really want to buy it. The reason I ended up buying S2 was because I made friends with a few people on a demo server. We made a little team and had a few long races but after that we wanted more, so 4-6 of us bought S2 while the rest already had it. If the demo was limited that would of been 4-6 S2 licenses that would never of been purchased.or 4-6 S2 licenses bought sooner. a similar thing happened the ATC. but we only played the demo until S2 licenses were available. i was alread S1 licensed at the time.

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Demo is what brings the majority here, Its why I have a S2 license.
I know a great deal of people that played the demo for around 6-12 months, some quite a lot, some play it longer some shorter. LFS didn't grab me straight away. It took around 9 months (and even then i downloaded a torrent)
And even with my l33t hax0ring skills i could not crack it.

Also its from a team of 3 developers, no major publisher, on-line purchase only. This would put a few people off to begin with and time limited even further, I know I was a little dubious. What sold me was LFSworld and the games integration, all those stats, history etc etc <3.

EQWorry all 3 points quite valid and some nice ideas. Demo LFSWorld Support is I think or should be a premium feature.

anyway... carry on>

[IsaacPrice]

Well, my own opinion is that there still is a large demo community in every area of the demo game, from the car park(lolwut :shrug:) to FBM @ BL1 and XFG @ Rallyx, hell I think theres even a (small) community for driving FBM @ BL2. Yeah maybe people quit LFS, but thats usually how a demo works anyway. I don't really know much about LFS demo back in the old times, but I think the demo community is far from dead atm so I don't see how the BL1R and BL2R thing being removed has damaged the whole of lfs. However you obviously felt strongly enough to attempt to make those reversed demo servers via airio in the past and I'm pretty sure your knowledge of demo is better than mine, so I guess I'd have to see it to realise what you mean :).

The S0 idea sounds good, and could raise a little bit of money for the dev's I guess. However, there are various projects for demo players supported by the LFS devs(or atleast I think it is) such as Maailman nopein kansa which attract huge numbers to LFS demo. If the BL1R/BL2R thing damaged LFS, then surely the S0 thing which would probably damage that project would damage LFS as a whole a lot more. Also you'd have to wonder whether S0 would even get bought that much, I mean with the younger generation of LFS players they probably have to prove they actually like the game for a period of time before there parents will let them use there credit cards etc to buy it, I know that was the case with me anyways. If it was S0 or S2 it probably wouldn't have made a difference to when I actually payed for anything, and I still would have got S2. I'd have just used different license names for a year :D.

So I guess I'm saying leave it as it is, but I do think something could be done with the demo area to improve it for everybody and maybe the S0 idea could work if it was refined a bit, idk :schwitz:

[cargame.nl]

(Because how many demo competitions a year you can run if promising S2 licence to the winner?)
I organize a competition each month now, 2 free S1 vouchers to win.

2x 12 = 24 S1 vouchers a year.

But, nobody seems interested, server stays empty :shrug:

Not that I care much, but its kinda weird.

[Hahmo]

Well tbh it would be a bit like iRacing.
I think demo should be free always.
It get's people interested more in the game and eventually will buy the full version.

[zeugnimod]

I organize a competition each month now, 2 free S1 vouchers to win.

2x 12 = 24 S1 vouchers a year.

But, nobody seems interested, server stays empty :shrug:

Not that I care much, but its kinda weird.

Maybe not enough people know about it?

I haven't seen you post anything about it here yet, and I usually read almost every post (:shy:).

I can't really believe that nobody wants a basically "free" license. :shrug:

[GreyBull [CHA]]

I organize a competition each month now, 2 free S1 vouchers to win.

2x 12 = 24 S1 vouchers a year.

But, nobody seems interested, server stays empty :shrug:

Not that I care much, but its kinda weird.

Zeug is true, something went wrong in the advertising process. You see all those S2 hoppers on the forum? I'm sure most of them would rush in your servers if you actually create a thread on LFSF about it, write up something at LFS News etc.

[cargame.nl]

I do that on purpose, in theory in-server advertising should be enough :really:

(and, I learned some time ago that you must not open positive topics on this forum. Ppl can't handle that here :x )

[GreyBull [CHA]]

I do that on purpose, in theory in-server advertising should be enough :really:

And why should it be? No offense but the demo community doesn't stop at your servers;)

[cargame.nl]

Had some full server days, you'd expect some people to stay / come back.. But they don't.

Funny thing is that the most dedicated demo server users are in fact already licensed :Looking_a

I try to understand why this happens...

[Crady]

3) If point 2 would be accepted, it would be cool to have an option to get real S0 licence. Unlimited demo usage, without time restriction, for something like 3 pounds. Many people would be willing to give this much. And many admins would be willing to organize demo series with S0 licences to the winners, simply because they're cheap. (Because how many demo competitions a year you can run if promising S2 licence to the winner?)

Great point! But S0 should be for free! Only thing Demo racers have to do is to drive good lap times in that testing period and there should be a maximum of allowed bans.

So Demo racers (hopefully) will become good and fair drivers.

Also unused demo accounts should be deleted after a period of not being online. So Victor can tidy up his database.

[hazaky]

Im still looking at some posts here and im like "damn wtf" ... making a demo restricted is not forcing them to buy it or neither taking away the fun ... Like dadge said, its just to impress them and that stuff.

Multiplayer: 60 minute restriction
Singleplayer: Unlimited time

That would be the best option ... and i would love the devs if they would apply this. (well, i love them anyway)

Edit: With time restriction, they could add a IP filter (1 account per IP). That would be even more WIN.

[ATiRAGEPRO]

Second... What about the kids with their moms (OK, I'm probably REALLY stretching this out, But meh) Won't buy them any games, I think it would be very sad to see our community say "No.. Sorry.. But you've done your time.. I was just about to mention that.

I think it's safe to assume that a large portion of the LFS community that play the demos aren't old enough to have a credit card or a paypal account anyway, so how can anyone expect them to fork over $37.42 for a game? Even if they had the cash, it's not like they can buy this on store shelves.:shrug:

The LFS community here in the States is pretty close to being DEAD. all 997Bazillion U.S. servers are empty on an almost consistent basis, and I'm getting sick and tired of having to go on South American and LFS Columbia servers with a ping of about 180, only to lead the **** ing race and then at the VERY LAST LAP my connection cuts out just before the ****** ****ing finnish line!!!!:banghead: :irked:

OK, the reason that I said that is because I really hope there isn't some trial period forced on demo users in the future, because that will just put the final nail in the coffin of the U.S. LFS community over here. :(

If LFS really wants more players, get this game on store shelves. here in the States, people pick up games just because it has interesting box art. most of the time, they don't care what it is or what its about, If the box looks cool enough, gamers here will pretty much buy anything.:shrug: Sure, it might be a little different because of the economic crissis, but I bought this game at a time where I just started school and didn't even have a job. 'If you build it, they will come,' basically. :nod:

[cargame.nl]

LFS Columbia servers with a ping of about 180, only to lead the **** ing race and then at the VERY LAST LAP my connection cuts out just before the ****** ****ing finnish line!!!!:banghead: :irked:
I have a West Coast server (Los Angeles) standing by, ready for take off...

But LFS people tend to go the busied server, no matter WHAT.

That is a problem.

I understand the frustration btw.

[richo]

It should be time or lap limited, in its current state LFS is essentially free because of the generous amount of content given in the demo.

A demo should be a taste of whats to come not the complete meal minus some cars and tracks.


I just have been using the demo to Rise of Flight and its limited to 15 days , great sim and a reasonable price $40.00 US so i bought it . The fact it was time limited did not deter me from a purchase.

I just think its wrong when you see people that have been using the demo for years , if the sim is that good and you have not bought it it cannot be a financial problem because anyone can save forty bucks LFS costs over that time period.

/puts on flame proof suit..

[s01id]

I'm a demo racer. I discovered LFS about 3 or 4 years ago. You think it would be a good time for me to buy a license? But I don't play that often at all. I think the last time I played was in the end of 2009 (checked to the forums today to read some news about VWS... I have no comments about that). I was very active and played for a few weeks. Maybe even for a month. But before that I had a year-long break. And it has been like that for all those years. I play for a few weeks but then I have a half (or even a whole) year break. Every time I started thinking about buying a license I always got tired of LFS and forgot about it completely. And it has always been like this.

But I just can't understand S2 racers who want the demo to be limited. I mean, how does it affect you? It could only mean that less experienced racers go to S2 servers (who can (and probably will) give S2 racers a proper headache). Or are you just embittered by the fact that there are people who didn't pay for LFS and are still having fun?

[dadge]

it affects S2 licence holders in no way at all. but it's a demo, demonstration. a sample of the full content. a taster of a game.
go into 1 car dealership everyday and ask them for a demo. how long do you think it will take the salesman to start questioning your motives?

[cargame.nl]

I mean, how does it affect you? It could only mean that less experienced racers go to S2 servers (who can (and probably will) give S2 racers a proper headache). Or are you just embittered by the fact that there are people who didn't pay for LFS and are still having fun?
I think its more a frustration that the active licensed population stays on a low level. LFS can be so much better and more fun with a doubled active userbase.

[richo]

it affects S2 licence holders in no way at all. but it's a demo, demonstration. a sample of the full content. a taster of a game.
go into 1 car dealership everyday and ask them for a demo. how long do you think it will take the salesman to start questioning your motives?

Spot on.

After months of use you know you enjoy it please pay the guys that made it , its not the fact that i paid and you didnt its the fact that you should support the guys that have worked hard to make the thing.

[dadge]

you'll also find that with an S2 license, wreckers are alot lower than the demo. wrecking in S2 has a much higher consequence and so happens less. also, you have hold better leagues instead of blackwood 12 times. you can drive mor cars and have bigger grids. "newbie" or "newcomers" to S2 will be treated quite good on (dare i say it) all servers. help and setups are offered regularly too. if LFS were to be repriced imoo it would be alot more expensive considering what you get. so if you think about it that way, buy it now before the price is put up ;)
i played most driving games/sims but LFS is the one i always come back to. so for me, it's worth alot more than £24.
take dirt 2 for example. i have that, i have the world record in the impreza at mali-allen pass. i am bord of it within 1 month. when dirt3 comes out, i'll buy that, play it for a month and get bored again. only to realise i have just spent in total (for dirt2 and dirt3) £75 for about 2 months game time on the dirt titles.
so, do the math,
£75 for 2 months of the dirt titles / £24 for 6 years of LFS racing.

[delray25]

this isn't a demo flame war at all
I understand your intentions perfectly
... sorry your offended.
I am not offended
this isn't a demo flame war at all
Maybe not yet, but commments like "its the fact that you should support" are designed to make demo users feel guilty about using the demo for too long. Predictably, demo users will respond to this attack on their morality and presto, here's your flame war. Its almost inevitable.

[dadge]

nope, no flame war here. only licensed and demo users sharing their views on the demo side of LFS.
demo users might find your signiture more of a flame than Mr Hiltons comments.

[delray25]

... your signiture ...

Haha, good spotting...

Well, lets be "patient" then, won't we...

[EQ Worry]

My view is you can apply limitations and restrictions only when usage is on the rise. Limiting demo now would have disastrous consequences. LFS stands on two legs, demo and licence. By removing BL1R and especially BL2R it shot itself into one leg, and never fully recovered. By applying 60 minutes online gaming or something even more restrictive, it would cut that leg completely... and die of the consequences a few months later.

My view is that in fact it needs to recover, it needs to get more meat, to heal. And that could be (maybe) achieved not by restricting demo, but by allowing more content there. The obvious change is allowing reversed Blackwood tracks again. Demo accounts could be time-limited, but it should be at least 3 months, preferably 6, and this only so that the LFSW database is under control. I would consider even adding one more powerful car to Demo, maybe RB4 or even FXR, but I know some people would be outraged by that, so I'm not proposing it. :)

I see one interesting problem concerning demo racing. More and more people get specialized - they do only one combo, indefinitely, thousands, even tens of thousands of laps. They are not interested in doing anything else. They do cool lap times on BL1+FBM or BL1+XFG or BL1+XGR or BL2+XFG or BL2+XRG and they are not really interested in trying anything new. They will never buy S2, because instead of gods they'll be newbies again. By opening BL1R and BL2R tracks I would also hope to change this approach, to break this specialization.

[Chongor]

If you were to limit the demo account I think you would just start seeing more torrents for LFS that have full cars along with tracks but just wouldnt be able to play online. Let the demo users keep it. Not everyone has an extra 40 dollars to spend or 20 even. They could even be running it on a computer from 2001 that has xp and probably an 1/8th of the RAM you guys have in your computers. I couldnt afford S2 for a while so the demo had its days of fun (well before I bought s1 :x)

my 2c

[richo]

Enough to pay for the computer and internet costs and who knows most likely a wheel? Come on that old horse shit about not enough funds doesn't stand up , even if were talking about really young kids .

I buy my kids the games they like for there birthday and Christmas , i just think the monetary argument is not applicable anymore as its not a lot of cash.

If you can't save in the time it takes to do 1000s of laps your not trying..

[John Hilton]

Spot on.

After months of use you know you enjoy it please pay the guys that made it , its not the fact that i paid and you didnt its the fact that you should support the guys that have worked hard to make the thing.

:thumbsup: :nod:

[s01id]

it affects S2 licence holders in no way at all. but it's a demo, demonstration. a sample of the full content. a taster of a game.
go into 1 car dealership everyday and ask them for a demo. how long do you think it will take the salesman to start questioning your motives?

When talking about demo, S2 users always mention that "demo" means "demonstration". Alright, so the problem seems to be in that word ("demo"). If the demo was named e.g. "S0", would it still be a problem? Because it wouldn't be a demonstration anymore. It would just be free content.

[John Hilton]

When talking about demo, S2 users always mention that "demo" means "demonstration". Alright, so the problem seems to be in that word ("demo"). If the demo was named e.g. "S0", would it still be a problem? Because it wouldn't be a demonstration anymore. It would just be free content.

very good point. :thumb:

[dadge]

When talking about demo, S2 users always mention that "demo" means "demonstration". Alright, so the problem seems to be in that word ("demo"). If the demo was named e.g. "S0", would it still be a problem? Because it wouldn't be a demonstration anymore. It would just be free content.using that logic, we could rename murder to blade tag just so it doesn't sound so bad.

it's called demo for a reason. because that's what it is. it's a demonstration of what you could get if you buy the full product. the problem is not that it's called demo, it's that demo users feel they are entitled to more content when they could buy the game and increase their content 10 fold.
now, here's a good test. go onto a demo server and say that you've found a working crack for LFS. see how many people ask you for this crack. so there will be your proof that some/most demo users want the full game but are not willing to pay for it.
how long would you stand at a free sample table at your local super market?

[hazaky]

Once again, amen to Dadge ... Ur like taking the words out of my mouth. :thumb:

[Mille Sabords]

using that logic, we could rename murder to blade tag just so it doesn't sound so bad.

it's called demo for a reason. because that's what it is. it's a demonstration of what you could get if you buy the full product. the problem is not that it's called demo, it's that demo users feel they are entitled to more content when they could buy the game and increase their content 10 fold.
now, here's a good test. go onto a demo server and say that you've found a working crack for LFS. see how many people ask you for this crack. so there will be your proof that some/most demo users want the full game but are not willing to pay for it.
how long would you stand at a free sample table at your local super market?

Agreed.
But LFS demo is also the only active advertisement for the game.
It must be able to attract people, and create a need - therefore it has to offer better or more than the competition.

The NKP demo is similar, for example. Rfactor has more public so they do not need the generous demo, and iRacing neither because they do spend money in real advertisement.

As LFS devs spend no money in advertisement, they can be generous with the demo - bringing less income but spreading the game faster as it offers a good deal for free.

Maybe that will change when the devs consider the game is ready for advertisement and wide distribution - if ever.

[lfs-drift staff]

how long would you stand at a free sample table at your local super market?

depends if your the one giving those free sample :shrug: it can be a day

[dadge]

depends if your the one giving those free sample :shrug: it can be a daybah-dum-dum-tsk. :)

[dadge]

imo, if you're serious about sim racing, then you will eventually find LFS. and then once you've found it, you'd want to support the developers by purchasing their project and further increase your sim experience.
yes there's people who are serious about LFS and have played the demo for years but break that down and put it into some kind of perspective. lets say player "A" has been playing the demo for 2 years. during those two years, he could have saved 25pence per week and he'd have the money for the full content. now do you think that player "A" should then come onto the forum and ask for more content? do you think that 25p per week is an affordable ammount to save every week?
if you look at how many people have S2 license status, you'll see that LFS has been doing just fine with word of mouth and promotions.
the way i see it, if you have not bought the product after about 6 months testing the demo, then maybe you have no intention in buying the product and so the demo should not be for you.
remember, the demo is only designed to give you an insight into what LFS S2 is all about. if it isn't enough to wet your appetite, then as the user, you should look at a different product that will satisfy your interests. long time demo users confuse me. they have already shown their interest in the game by playing the demo for years rather than weeks or months. this is the bit that confusses me. they don't take the next step and purchase the full content and make use of LFS in its full glory.

[s01id]

remember, the demo is only designed to give you an insight into what LFS S2 is all about. if it isn't enough to wet your appetite, then as the user, you should look at a different product that will satisfy your interests.

Take me for example. Like I said before, I don't play that often and demo satisfies my interests completely. I like LFS because of it's realistic physics, I don't care about how many cars on how many tracks I can drive. Sometimes I just feel I would like to race. And FBM on BW1 is all I need. Now, it's very difficult for a demo user who is completely satisfied by the demo to force himself to buy it (if he/she is not interested in S2 content). For me, the developers have of course made a good job but I don't think of them as gods who should have my wife, house and soul just because they have made the greatest piece of software humankind has ever known. Yes, I sound like an asshole, but for me, LFS is a good game, a decent game, nothing more.

I mean, how many of you have bought WinRAR?

[JohnPenn]

If the demo works for you , enjoy :)But you don't know what your missing and I'm not talking about more tracks or cars.

Take me for example. Like I said before, I don't play that often and demo satisfies my interests completely. I like LFS because of it's realistic physics, I don't care about how many cars on how many tracks I can drive. Sometimes I just feel I would like to race. And FBM on BW1 is all I need. Now, it's very difficult for a demo user who is completely satisfied by the demo to force himself to buy it (if he/she is not interested in S2 content). For me, the developers have of course made a good job but I don't think of them as gods who should have my wife, house and soul just because they have made the greatest piece of software humankind has ever known. Yes, I sound like an asshole, but for me, LFS is a good game, a decent game, nothing more.

I mean, how many of you have bought WinRAR?

[dadge]

Take me for example. Like I said before, I don't play that often and demo satisfies my interests completely. I like LFS because of it's realistic physics, I don't care about how many cars on how many tracks I can drive. Sometimes I just feel I would like to race. And FBM on BW1 is all I need. Now, it's very difficult for a demo user who is completely satisfied by the demo to force himself to buy it (if he/she is not interested in S2 content). For me, the developers have of course made a good job but I don't think of them as gods who should have my wife, house and soul just because they have made the greatest piece of software humankind has ever known. Yes, I sound like an asshole, but for me, LFS is a good game, a decent game, nothing more.I mean, how many of you have bought WinRAR?


i don't use winrar (7zip FTW!). nobody said the devs are gods and you should give your wife. what i said was if you enjoy LFS then wouldn't you want to support the devs. and again, you're not being forced to buy LFS.
if you didn't care bout the ammount of cars on track then you would not be playing online or with AI. you'd only use LFS demo for single car hotlapping. so, to say "all i want is to race the fbm at blackwood" is a contradiction to your previous statement. maybe you said it only to justify why you have not purchased the s2 content.
coming to the forum is also a clear indication that you are looking for more. you're looking for more information about the product. so for me, the demo has made you curious enough to find the forum.
i've just looked at your post history to see how long you've been coming to the forum.
i see you've made a few posts in the "cars we'd like to see in S3" thread. your posts tell a different story to the one you've just told me.

one of your first posts(8th December 2008): But don't worry, I have been thinking of buying S2 for a while now. At the moment, I just have more urgent things to do with my money. But as soon as I have enough free funds I will definitely get it. what changed? if only you had saved 25pence per week, you'd only have 4 months of saving and then you would have the funds to purchase LFS.

[boothy]

I mean, how many of you have bought WinRAR?

I don't recall paying giving you extra features? If I need to buy it I'll just use 7zip instead :tilt:

[s01id]

if you didn't care bout the ammount of cars on track then you would not be playing online or with AI. you'd only use LFS demo for single car hotlapping. so, to say "all i want is to race the fbm at blackwood" is a contradiction to your previous statement.

Wait, what? I think you have to read my post again. I said "I don't care about how many cars on how many tracks I can drive". Racing means competing with others. Of course I talked about playing online with FBM on BW1.

maybe you said it only to justify why you have not purchased the s2 content

It sounds extremely lame but I don't think I need to justify myself. I'm just trying to make you, S2 racers, understand.

i see you've made a few posts in the "cars we'd like to see in S3" thread. your posts tell a different story to the one you've just told me.

That was 2 years ago. It was during my "active" period. I was irriatated by the way demo users were treated in this forum. I really considered buying S2 but then I realised that I'm not that interested about it. I played for a month and then left for a year or even more.

And as I said before, I came to the forum yesterday to find some news about Scirocco.

[cargame.nl]

And why is that? You will buy a license if the Sciricco gets released?

[dadge]

Wait, what? I think you have to read my post again. I said "I don't care about how many cars on how many tracks I can drive". Racing means competing with others. Of course I talked about playing online with FBM on BW1.



It sounds extremely lame but I don't think I need to justify myself. I'm just trying to make you, S2 racers, understand.



That was 2 years ago. It was during my "active" period. I was irriatated by the way demo users were treated in this forum. I really considered buying S2 but then I realised that I'm not that interested about it. I played for a month and then left for a year or even more.

And as I said before, I came to the forum yesterday to find some news about Scirocco. how can you not be interested in something and still be checking up on it 2 years later? us S2 racers completely understand. the problem is that demo users don't. they feel they are content with what they have. only to offer input in forums and then ask for more content. that's not how it works. to ask for more content, you first have to have tried everything the game has to offer. if you've only tried 5% of LFS how can you say that the game will be better if they added a skyline or a veyron when you haven't tried the GTR cars or the RB4?
to me, you're showing all the signs of a potential buyer, but you've not made that transition and to be honest, you've missed the party completely.

[Skytrill]

I think the most irritating part of the problem is not the demo at all. When I see "demoers" begging for new tracks and cars it's pretty clear to me that they are already getting more contents in the game then what they are supposed to (illegally) and I think it's pretty lame to dare asking for even more content on the official forum that they never helped to maintain financially.
LFS is no need for speed, LFS is a simulation and it's a pretty little niche market so the devs truly deserve your support if you enjoy the game. Their living consist of developing a brilliant simulation, the least you can do is to pay 18$usd for a license with which you can play for years without additional fees. Heck I almost always race alone or in LAN and I bought it anyway :smileypul

The more support LFS receive, the more contents and life it'll get.

[dadge]

I think the most irritating part of the problem is not the demo at all. When I see "demoers" begging for new tracks and cars it's pretty clear to me that they are already getting more contents in the game then what they are supposed to (illegally) and I think it's pretty lame to dare asking for even more content on the official forum that they never helped to maintain financially.
LFS is no need for speed, LFS is a simulation and it's a pretty little niche market so the devs truly deserve your support if you enjoy the game. Their living consist of developing a brilliant simulation, the least you can do is to pay 18$usd for a license with which you can play for years without additional fees. Heck I almost always race alone or in LAN and I bought it anyway :smileypul

The more support LFS receive, the more contents and life it'll get.:thumb: word.

[s01id]

And why is that? You will buy a license if the Sciricco gets released?

No, I don't think so. Not anymore. Reasons are mentioned above. The thing with Scirocco is... Well, it's original release date was more that 18 months ago. If they had released it then, maybe that would have been the last nail on my demo-era's coffin. Now it's just pure curiosity (how long can it take?). By the way, are there some news about Scirocco? I haven't checked to the forums for a long time.

how can you not be interested in something and still be checking up on it 2 years later? us S2 racers completely understand. the problem is that demo users don't. they feel they are content with what they have. only to offer input in forums and then ask for more content. that's not how it works. to ask for more content, you first have to have tried everything the game has to offer. if you've only tried 5% of LFS how can you say that the game will be better if they added a skyline or a veyron when you haven't tried the GTR cars or the RB4?
to me, you're showing all the signs of a potential buyer, but you've not made that transition and to be honest, you've missed the party completely.

Man, I told you (several times?): I was out of the scene for a long time. I heard someone talking about LFS and thought I should check to the LFS Forum.

About the red part. Sorry, but I just can't understand what you're saying. If you're talking about my more-than-2-year-old post (I'm 18, 2 years make a difference) in the "Cars we wanna see in S3" thread, then read the topic's title again. It's not "Cars you (developers) have to put into S3". I was only making a suggestion. Even suggestions are prohibited for demo racers?

Again, it was 2 years ago, don't get stuck on it.

[dadge]

don't take it personal. you're not the only demo user. i was talking about all demo users who are the same trend as you.

you seem to have an excuse for everything so i'll leave it at that before this thread is turned into the classic demo vs licensed flame war.

[richo]

Brains statues

[TehPaws3D]

don't you think that because you have 400+ "free" laps, it's unfair to the people who have paid for the game. a demo is meant to impress you enough to buy the full game. now, lets break the cost of LFS down a bit. it's £24 for S2 and £12 for S1. if you saved £1 per week, you'd have the money for LFS S1 in 3 months. S2 in 6 months. some demo users have been playing the demo for years on an internet connection that cost about the same as LFS S2 per month.
can't you see that 400+ laps on a demo is way more than enough to encourage you to buy the S2 content? having no money on your card is not LFS' problem.
imo, the demo should be restricted as already mentioned. i think my sig says it best.
EDIT: the way i see it, if you have no plans in buying LFS, then why should you have any content for an unlimited time?


Please don't assume I'm looking for free content, That's kind of insulting, And if you would have read that "New player's say hi here" You would have known that on the 25th I'm getting S2, It's not a money problem at all, And i don't know, S2 is probably great, But I'm basically only a Sunday driver, And i don't see how much i would get out of it. You ranting on me about price breakdown is no way to make friends now is it :P And how exactly is me running up 400+ laps to see if i like the way a certain car handles unfair to people that paid for the game? It's not like I've discovered a awesome way that allows me to play online with guys that paid for it, Neither am i looking for a handout to get it, If i don't have the money on my card, Thus means i cannot buy it? How is this not A problem? I can't buy it without it.

Edit: Okay, Messed up and misread the part about it being "Not a LFS problem" I don't see again, How 400+ laps is enough of anyone to buy the game, More like 1000, When you start constantly winning at blackwood, When you WANT to win at other races or maybe when you figure out how to tinker with car setups... Then, maybe it would be enough to buy LFS S2

[hazaky]

... And if you would have read that "New player's say hi here" You would have known that on the 25th I'm getting S2 ...
Well ... we are not new here. Why would we have to read that thread? I know that its nice to welcome people in there, but ... :shrug:

Anyways, there could be official poll by devs wich lets us choose if demo should be restricted or not (Obviously, only S1 and S2 licence holders are allowed to vote). I doubt there will be any. Also, in theory - the devs should have to make the decision.

Edit:
By the way, are there some news about Scirocco? I haven't checked to the forums for a long time.
Hint ... the scirocco is a lie
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/4/45334/1063462-portal_cake_thumb.png

[dadge]

Please don't assume I'm looking for free content, That's kind of insulting,


Yet all you guys posting are S2'd, I don't have the money to buy it yet, Not on my card, At least, And it would be very unfair for me as i have already ran 400+ laps in a XFG (I believe) So.. Wtf? I'd instantly get kicked off or something? D=
that post was insulting to every licensed driver on LFS. it also shows you in a very selfish way. wouldn't you agree?

lets say a lap is one mile. you've driven 400 miles and you still can't make your mind up. come one dude, snap out of it. i'm not a stalker so yeah, i have not seen your post in the new players thread. maybe you should have pm'd me this info?

i can tell you exactly what you will get out of LFS when you buy it. more cars and more track plus bigger grids.
this post is more of a rant than any of my previous posts in this thread so i don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to me breaking down the price of lfs.
maybe read my post again. i said you not having money on your card is in no way a LFS' problem.
so, let me get this straight, if you win 1000 races you will buy LFS? you're not making sense. if you're saying it's the winning that's is LFS' unique selling point then you couldn't be any more wrong. win or lose, it's the racing that's the selling point. that coupled with great physics. it took me only a few races for me to realise i was onto a winner.

[Kiyoshi]

Well right now there are 300 licensed racers online, and 500 demo racers.
Is the balance right?
I agree that some amount of 'demo' will encourage people to buy, but it seems that the majority will just keep on taking what's free. In the meantime, I'm struggling to find a decent race because there aren't really enough licensed racers for more than one public server, so you get all sorts in there.

People wouldn't keep playing if they weren't 'getting benefit' from the demo. And no-one can complain if they are getting something of value for nothing & it's then restricted.
I also imagine the number of people who really can't afford to buy is a very small fraction of players. People are just getting too used to 'getting stuff for free'.
Where will it end?

[dadge]

i have been comparing the LFS demo to the Mafia2 demo recently. i have not hacked or cracked the demo and i feel that the mission provided even with only 20mins of gameplay allowed, i'm still going to buy Mafia2. even the video at when you exit was enough to make me want to buy Mafia2. i think if LFS has somethign as simple as a small video at the end to showcase what is on S2 licensed, it would help steer more demo users towards making the final step and purchasing.

[hazaky]

Well, 5min ago one dude added me on skype and asked about the LsC cruise insim. Basically he sayd that hes a demo user and needs help with the insim. Idk, kinda messy stuff but well ... another cracker who WILL keep playing thedemo and trying to get more content out of it.

Edit: He told me that he cracked the game and he makes S2 servers (probably via hamachi or some sort of). So he wants LsC insim on the server now. Please set some restrictions on the demo ... devs ... please?

[richo]

Don't be like that he is a valued might be buyer of LFS ..

[hazaky]

Don't be like that he is a valued might be buyer of LFS ..
I seriously doubt in that opinion. This is what everyone in this thread says who think that demo should stay as it is (right?). Well, i believe that those 95% of demoers will keep playing and enjoying the game (not trying the game!) :shrug:

[richo]

Btw that was an attempt at sarcasm, i must have'd failed though.


Look after the people that entertainment you Demo pplz, that is all.

[Skytrill]

To keep the demo at a "demo status".. I would suggest to Scawen an online check every 30 minutes or so to keep the hacking away. I think they might underestimate the number of users that get much more content then they deserve. And I agree with you guys when you're saying that the demo might be limited or more restricted because it's kinda absurd that a game got almost twice as demo users as customers.

I remember when patch Y came out, a guy told me something like: Oh they take away the XRT to replace it with a FBMW.. well I guess after 2 years it's time to leave LFS."

This is not normal :shrug:

Maybe Scavier are being too generous after all.. but some peoples will always complain and in this current situation, doesn't matter much as most of them aren't going to support the sim anyway. The demo is better than most sims so most of them got used to it as a free little game.

A feature I though before would be to allow licensed users to race with licenced cars onto demo server, which would become mixed servers. That way demo users could see and race against other type or cars and would be much more tease to try them online. The servers would separate the result in Classes, just like we got in real life such as Grand Touring, AMLMS, etc.. so a demo user could win in his own category just like was used to in the past.

That feature would also make populated races easier to find at certain hours I presume.

My two cents..

[Bladespa]

I think this is why this game is so good and so appreciate.

Is better have a lot of demo user that could be potential customer or nothing?

And then is a way to increase potential customers, 'cause demo user invite friends to race online and more people are involved, more people buy.

[R.Kolz]

I´d be interested to see some stats about sold S2 licences in a few month if the devs would restrict the overall demo hosts to 5 only - instead of the actual number of 200.
Sayed that, I have no problem with long-terms or any demo racer arround and believe as well in the motto "Never change a winning team".

[EQ Worry]

Just a few quick thoughts, all completely my error-prone views:

1) You'll not improve LFS user base by limiting demo in any way. Maybe 25% demo people will get a kind of licence, but 75% will simply disappear. Would you be happy if instead of 300/500 ratio of licensed/demo people there is 400/0? Would that be good for the future of LFS?

2) The are many demo people that are not interested in anything else. Price is not a problem, but they have their community and do not look for more (e.g. because of time spent in LFS). Limit demo and the communities will disintegrate.

3) If LFS was in a healthy state with ever expanding content and user base, you could think about limitations. But it is static for a long time now, that's why I'm proposing the opposite to limitations, to create new conditions for growth.

Well, sometimes I feel like devil's advocate, going against the tide... But it is my opinion. Wouldn't it be great if developers had any comment?

[dadge]

Just a few quick thoughts, all completely my error-prone views:

1) You'll not improve LFS user base by limiting demo in any way. Maybe 25% demo people will get a kind of licence, but 75% will simply disappear. Would you be happy if instead of 300/500 ratio of licensed/demo people there is 400/0? Would that be good for the future of LFS? a demo that does not impress you enough for you to buy the full version is a demo that doesn't work. if 75% of demo users who do not plan to buy the game disappear then LFS has lost nothing. 75% of 0 is 0.

2) The are many demo people that are not interested in anything else. Price is not a problem, but they have their community and do not look for more (e.g. because of time spent in LFS). Limit demo and the communities will disintegrate.sorry bud but i don't believe this one. a team that plays only demo lfs are restricting themselves.

3) If LFS was in a healthy state with ever expanding content and user base, you could think about limitations. But it is static for a long time now, that's why I'm proposing the opposite to limitations, to create new conditions for growth. physics and graphical updates are all the demo should get imo. no more extra cars or tracks because it's a demo. in its current state, you get a fwd tin top, a rwd tin top and a single seater. which is more or less a taste of all the car groups that lfs has to offer........when does a demo stop being a demo and start being a game?

Well, sometimes I feel like devil's advocate, going against the tide... But it is my opinion. Wouldn't it be great if developers had any comment? i don't see how a comment from a dev would change anybodies opinion on this matter.
i think that the demo should be either kept as it is or restricted. nothing extra in terms of content should be added.

[EQ Worry]

I think we're talking about two different things here. All that I'm suggesting is aimed at keeping and widening the LFS community, getting the "new blood" and bringing back the old one. I believe it is the more important thing today, starting in demo, where changes could be simple yet far-reaching. From this perspective, 75% of demo people is immense force, half the life in current LFS.

If you're saying that 75% of 0 is still 0, you take the pure money approach, and, simply put, I do not believe it will work, especially in the long run. Yes, a few hundred people will get license if forced to, which could make devs happy, but LFS community as a whole would suffer and bear the consequences.

Of course a view of one of the core developers would help, because it should be backed by tangible data. For example, what was the license buy rate and demo/licensed people online numbers before BL1R and BL2R were taken out of demo and after? Did it mean any change of tendency, and in what direction? What is the current tendency? They should know.

[dadge]

at the end of the day. the devs need to make money. it's not that i am taking the money approach. i'm taking the only approach a business can take to still be here in the future.
yes 75% is alot. but if 75% of your potential customers have no plans on buying your product, then why should you give them more? if that's the case, everyone could boycott LFS and get S3 for free. and again, nobody is forcing anyone to buy LFS.
your problem is that you're looking at LFS as a community when infact it's actually a business. the devs have a product, they are selling this product. it's not charity, and even if it was, that 75% of demo racers wouldn't donate.
don't get caught up on the community side of LFS. at the end of the day, we're only paying customers. yes we have a little bit of input, but if we were not here, the beta testers would have this covered and lfs would take longer to finish.
aas my mother would say, "beggers can't be choosers". if you want more, you gotta pay (she never said that bit :)). and that's the bottom line.

[5tag]

I somehow like the idea although I would set the limit much higher at around 500 or 1000 laps.

Though I don't think that would be a good idea. It has been like it is for far too long now to change. LFS would only be more aimed at than now. Politically this suggestion is pretty much nonesense if you ask me. :shrug:

[STF]

A feature I thought before would be to allow licensed users to race with licenced cars onto demo server, which would become mixed servers. That way demo users could see and race against other type or cars and would be much more tease to try them online. The servers would separate the result in Classes, just like we got in real life such as Grand Touring, AMLMS, etc.. so a demo user could win in his own category just like was used to in the past.


Now this sounds very, very interesting, but not really possible with 11 total cars on grid.

I thought about something similar too. Allow them to spectate S2 races and drool.
That would kind of force a very large percent to get licensed without frustrations and drama of more limitations.

Now that would be what you call a demo. A demo of the "real" thing. As in spectating and not being able to take part.

But I guess that would be a whole new approach, and I`m not so sure an easy one.

[TehPaws3D]

A feature I though before would be to allow licensed users to race with licenced cars onto demo server, which would become mixed servers. That way demo users could see and race against other type or cars and would be much more tease to try them online. The servers would separate the result in Classes, just like we got in real life such as Grand Touring, AMLMS, etc.. so a demo user could win in his own category just like was used to in the past.


That would be really cool, I'd honestly love to see some Demo VS S2 / S1 Would be a curbstomp with XFG and XRG maybe compared to the GT and .. What the other cars are called.. GT2? GTR? But yeah, That'd be really interesting but then you would have to open (Maybe) Up the faster tracks, As S2 users probably would feel pretty dumbed down if all they got to drive in their fast cars was blackwood, However, I personally love blackwood and I guess alot of S2 racers do.

But if you stage it.. It doesn't really sound right, Like, What class would the XFG/XRG be in, Road Cars? Or would they be in the XRG/(Insert middle car here) XRT.

And honestly, Wouldn't you be able to draft the faster cars and set blazing PB's with no chance for Demo VS. Demo to compete with? Or are the other cars so fast the demo cars would have no chance? Obviously, I don't know about that, But still, That would be SWEET :D

But what about demo users taking over for the S2 cars? :(

[EQ Worry]

i'm taking the only approach a business can take to still be here in the future. ... your problem is that you're looking at LFS as a community when infact it's actually a business. ... don't get caught up on the community side of LFS. at the end of the day, we're only paying customers

Man, doesn't it sound depressing? I concede you may be right, but it would be so sad. You know, I do not believe devs created and were updating LFS for the business side of it, to make money. I still think it was for the fun and good time they had, with incoming money as an after-effect and not primary intention. But of course it may be an idealistic view, the same one that applies to me and Airio development.

But in the long run, you're probably right. If we had active development going on, serious updates appearing every few months, then I'd say it is a business, there could be a fee for the updates and many people would pay gladly, demo could be restricted, because the weight of LFS would reside elsewhere.

But LFS is not business now, in my eyes, because the "busy" side of the matter is gone. I think it only keeps running thanks to the community, especially the demo community, and that's why I think it is so important and worth direct support and boost. LFS today stands strongly on demo.

Final general note: Please understand that with my views and proposals to give more to demo people I'm not trying to enrage anyone. They are just proposals based on what I see and what I think would be good for LFS as a whole. Everyone is perfectly entitled to have his own quite opposite opinions. All I hope for now is that devs will start to be active again and move things somewhere. Because some stirring is needed...

[anttt69]

OK, the reason that I said that is because I really hope there isn't some trial period forced on demo users in the future, because that will just put the final nail in the coffin of the U.S. LFS community over here. :(


The biggest nail in the coffin for LFS in the states is your home grown iRacing & to a larger extent Rfactor. The amount of people over there that have never seen or heard of LFS amazes me, its almost as if it does not exist.

They might benefit from selling boxed copies but LFS is such a niche market everything else on the shelf is gona look more impressive. Saying that, they could go in at a much lower price point such as a boxed copy of S1. Another big selling point is that its an old engine that still runs on much older systems so they can appeal to a much wider (low spec) audience.

As for the restriction issue i would be in favour of all demo accounts being cancelled automoticaly after 12months. It's a tough call & you could argue what harm are they doing? If they play it a lot then they are only restricting themselfs from enjoying the full game.

Those that hack/crack the full content should all be sent NASTY viruses.

[cargame.nl]

The biggest nail in the coffin for LFS in the states is your home grown iRacing & to a larger extent Rfactor. The amount of people over there that have never seen or heard of LFS amazes me, its almost as if it does not exist.
True, the marketing is bad. Very bad.

If we have updates... We... The community... Can do something about it.

Writing news for news sites for example.

[Michalxo]

A feature I though before would be to allow licensed users to race with licenced cars onto demo server, which would become mixed servers. That way demo users could see and race against other type or cars and would be much more tease to try them online. The servers would separate the result in Classes, just like we got in real life such as Grand Touring, AMLMS, etc.. so a demo user could win in his own category just like was used to in the past.

That feature would also make populated races easier to find at certain hours I presume.


I like very much this idea! It's pretty interesting and maybe Scawen should think about it for a while too :-)
Worth thinking in my opinion.

[stiggycz]

Hi i am demo user with lfs history about 6 years

i am suprised how annoying people exist, who wants something limited.

I think lfs have potential to be your game of life. If you stop demouser in the begining, never explore what lfs offers. With more lap come more taste to buy it.

Of course i buy S2 licence. But still waiting for new patch, or S3 and announced changes to buy for it corresponding hardware.

We dont talk about S2 licence only, you need updated computer with windows licence, wheel, pedal, maybe rig, you need great pair of socks, gloves too haha.

Pay for S2 licence is maybe 1/30 quantity money what you need for good sim racing and only to ready wish luck.

[dadge]

Hi i am demo user with lfs history about 6 years


Of course i buy S2 licence. But still waiting for new patch, or S3 waiting 6 years for a patch? i doubt that. you're justifying why you have not made the purchase and gotten a S2 license.

We dont talk about S2 licence only, you need updated computer with windows licence, wheel, pedal, maybe rig, you need great pair of socks, gloves too haha. windows is something you will already have. to say you bought windows so you could play LFS is a massive exageration. everything else you can use with other games. so to say you bought those for LFS is again an exageration.

Pay for S2 licence is maybe 1/30 quantity money what you need for good sim racing and only to ready wish luck. LFS is an addition to your sim life. it is not the cause of your sim life. :)

[pfpdoodlez2009]

I dislike the idea of restricting, because it will only make some people buy the game, but most won't.

And since it would be restricted, people who couldn't afford it at the time or wasn't interested in buy it at the time would eventually lose interest and LFS Devs would be losing money.

Now, I'm still a little new to LFS (Joined May 14, '10) but the Demo as it was got really boring for me.
I recently got S2 as a gift and I have loved it since.

If the Demo was restricted, I would have ran away immediately, because most restricted demos and up being suckish games NO MATTER WHAT.
^^

I would not be here right now if the Demo was restricted, and the thing that urged me to buy S2 was because of larger servers, more cars, and serious drivers like me. Also, the cruise servers were a huge plus to me.

~Patrick™

EDIT: Dadge and stiggycz, also I have heard that LFS runs on Linux, last time I checked it was true, so you wouldn't NEED Windows, you could run it on a free OS, good if you are on a Mac.

[dadge]

if the demo had a 6 month restriction. imo, you would have still bought the full game. you only used the demo for 3 months.
you're a perfect example of what the demo is meant to do. in the 3 months you used the demo. you had time to explore the game and come to the conclusion that if the demo is this good, how good is the full content. and by the sounds of it, you're loving it.
i don't think there's a user who wouldn't agree that LFS was one of their best purchases. alot of people say "it's the best £24 i've ever spent". i would even go as far as saying the guys who are saying "LFS is dead" would also agree that it was the best £24 they had spent for a game.
it frustrates me sometimes. it's like standing outside a nightclub saying the music rocked when you could buy a ticket, go inside and enjoy the music to its fullest.

[stiggycz]

waiting 6 years for a patch? i doubt that. you're justifying why you have not made the purchase and gotten a S2 license.

windows is something you will already have. to say you bought windows so you could play LFS is a massive exageration. everything else you can use with other games. so to say you bought those for LFS is again an exageration.

LFS is an addition to your sim life. it is not the cause of your sim life. :)

i dont wrote about 6 years waiting for new patch. LFS develop cycle always feed lots of new stuff, and way to explore it was always fun.

My 5 years old computer with 60 fps in 15 players demo isnt good for S2 with 32 players, maybe in S3 will more players.
So actually i dont need S2 licence, becouse it is for me useless.

i need buy new hardware too for s2, but not only update, if i spend money for it i expect long lifetime use.

So directx 11 for s3 ? maybe directx 12 13... where is published info about develop cycle?

Only one simply information - s3 will about 1 year, or 5, 10 years is good enough for verdict if new computer buy this year or next.

I dont need better computer for other things, for email and internet is this low computer super, and other games makes me tired.

So S2 licence is for me 1000$, and who want explore old stuff, nobody,
i want S3 :)

Thank you lots devs, really FUN :)

[dadge]

i dont wrote about 6 years waiting for new patch. LFS develop cycle always feed lots of new stuff, and way to explore it was always fun.

My 5 years old computer with 60 fps in 15 players demo isnt good for S2 with 32 players, maybe in S3 will more players.
So actually i dont need S2 licence, becouse it is for me useless.

i need buy new hardware too for s2, but not only update, if i spend money for it i expect long lifetime use.

So directx 11 for s3 ? maybe directx 12 13... where is published info about develop cycle?

Only one simply information - s3 will about 1 year, or 5, 10 years is good enough for verdict if new computer buy this year or next.

I dont need better computer for other things, for email and internet is this low computer super, and other games makes me tired.

So S2 licence is for me 1000$, and who want explore old stuff, nobody,
i want S3 :)

Thank you lots devs, really FUN :)i think you need to do some research. LFS S2 is DX8 (i think). S3 will more or less stay on the same DX version. getting 5 years out of a computer is good. but your computer is now old. like a ps2 :)
you're a demo user so all S2 content is new for you. old for me. you will still get 60fps on a 32 car race. your fps will drop at the start. maybe 40fps. but will go back up to 60fps once the cars spread out.

[pfpdoodlez2009]

STiggycz, you get 60FPS near 15 cars in LFS with a 5 YEAR OLD COMPUTER?!
HOLY SH*T!

I get 12fps near pits and a 20 cars in pits with an 8 MONTH OLD COMPUTER.
DAMN.
I hardly hit 30fps lulz

And no, the FPS won't change much depending on cars; it's relatively the same.

And, I'm curious, can you PM me you PC specs?

-Pat™

[Mango Juice]

So directx 11 for s3 ? maybe directx 12 13... where is published info about develop cycle?

The rate of development of LFS is so slow it might actually start to go backwards. So perhaps DirectX 6 or 7.

[anttt69]

there is something seriously wrong with your pc doodle
post your specs

[Degats]

Last time I was running LFS on my old PC (8 year old hardware design, physically 7 years old - was mid-range when I bought it - I was getting minimum 30FPS at decent resolution (1440x900) and max graphics, just no AA.

I'd still be running that PC, had I not upgraded to cope with games and software released in the last 2-3 years or so, then mainly due to incompatibility (SSE2) rather than performance.


I can't see LFS ever needing expensive hardware for graphics - it just isn't necessary unless it's poorly optimised or excessively pretty and unrealistic looking. Luckily, Scawen seems to be incapable of releasing poorly optimised code and "LFS is not a screenshot generator".

CPU wise, LFS is more taxing, but my 3 year old - again mid-range - 1.6GHz laptop has enough grunt to handle a 32 car grid without breaking a sweat.

In fact, I recently bought a second hand computer for £100 that's perfectly capable of playing Crysis at high/very high settings. I for one don't buy into the expensive hardware excuse for one second.


It's remarkable how well LFS runs on old hardware considering how good the updated Blackwood and especially South City look. TBH, all LFS needs on the graphics front are some lighting and materials improvements, none of which should tax a vaguely modern graphics card that's above the bottom tier. Models with huge numbers of polys are just overkill for a racing sim IMO.

Oh, and newer DirectX versions usually mean that things run faster as the code has been optimised more.

[cargame.nl]

STiggycz, you get 60FPS near 15 cars in LFS with a 5 YEAR OLD COMPUTER?!
HOLY SH*T!

I get 12fps near pits and a 20 cars in pits with an 8 MONTH OLD COMPUTER.
DAMN.
I hardly hit 30fps lulz

And no, the FPS won't change much depending on cars; it's relatively the same.

And, I'm curious, can you PM me you PC specs?

-Pat™

If you buy a low end GPU card you would reach those results easily. Let me guess, you have a basic graphics chip capable of doing absolutely nothing?

I'm surprised so many youngsters still think that the CPU makes all the difference. What are they thinking? That the GPU market is just there for fun?

[sfkilla]

I have a funny question in my mind, i thought i'd share it...

How many Demo users have a wheel?

;)

[E.Reiljans]

I have a funny question in my mind, i thought i'd share it...

How many Demo users have a wheel?

;)I just went to random demo server and mouse:wheel ratio was somewhat near 50:50.

[Mravac Kid]

Lemme just quickly put in my 2 cents:

I've been a demo user for several years before I finally managed to buy the S2 license, and it's wonderful to be able to do that. Even now that I have the license, I don't have much time to play so I mostly run on the same circuit and the same cars I used to in the demo... familiarity goes a long way towards a pleasant experience. :)
So let's just keep it this way, I'm sure there's plenty of people out there willing but unable to buy the game, and allowing them to play the game keeps them interested in it.

I only got a wheel long after buying S2, but I did have a few chances to try the demo with one. But I mostly play on keyboard, as I don't really have room for a wheel on my desk.
As for the graphics... there's pretty big differences between versions, the V version runs quite smoothly on an old computer I have at work, but the Z can barely move on it.

[anihilation]

It took me awhile but I read most of the posts in this thread.

I am probably the type of DEMO Racer some of you want to get rid of, I played the demo in single player for a year or so then moved to the multiplayer DEMO 4 years ago, which I'am still at.

You say the DEMO should be limited, but it would be one more reason to crackers to have a go at LFS and maybe even make a pirate server, therefore reducing the arrival of new players (as the pirate would become an interesting option to "test" the full content). By keeping the demo limited in terms of cars and tracks is an interesting compromise, you get an DEMO comunity, which may help bring new players in, but still keep a reason for people to pay for more features (cars/tracks/etc..) and therefore gives the Dev team money to work with/for.

The cost of LFS is not an large issue, yeah its not cheap (here at least), but the hardware to enjoy it fully is.
I have a pc that runs it smoothly (not that hard to get, as LFS is not GPU Heavy, even in my notebook with an IGP it runs well), but to get a reasonable wheel is quite expensive (and I dont mean top of the line wheel), for me its 2 months of my entire pay to get one, and that suposing I dont need the money for anything else, so its an large investment, one that i'm not able to do yet.

For that same reason i didn't buy an S2 license, as i'll not pay for something I don't have means to enjoy fully.

I've tried some cheap wheels (~$75) but they would either be too vague (non responsive?) or not work at all.

Many people say the comunity is not growing, thats might be true as the public of LFS is not the majority of players, its an small amount of people that has commitment with the game, enjoy the realism LFS brings, and are not afraid to take time to learn to play the game reasonably well.

I have a friend that has a S2 license, but don't play for over 2 years because an old server/system which did several organized races has closed (I forgot the name, all I know is that a woman was one of the leaders/creators of this server(s)) he says the other servers are not as fun to race, and several are imposing limits (PB, min laps with car X on the track) while in this old server it was unrestricted, you could join an race from day 1, but of corse, there were admins monitoring for racers that were crashers, would offend others, etc. If it were prooved you were this type of player you would be banned from returning.
This made a race have a great number of differently skilled drivers that wanted nothing more than race and have fun without worrying with bad players crashing on to them every turn.

every now and then he asks "if the sirocco was out", and no its still being developed (I really hope it is)

People who play the demo and like tend to show it to others who might like it (I know I did) but the time needed to become competitive (with the average comunity) is huge compared to other games. and this probably is the reason many give up and move on.

I will say this, be nice to new players, as they are the ones that the dev team rely to pay the cost of the game.

[richo]

Being nice to new players is not an issue , its a different story for someone that has been using the demo for what five years?

You cannot tell me that after using the demo for five years you have anyones best interest in mind apart from your own.

As for the pirate theory its a load of shit as well , most people that use pirated software do so no matter what the cost of the software or its trial limitations .

They steal it because can.

[roadrash17]

Being nice to new players is not an issue , its a different story for someone that has been using the demo for what five years?

You cannot tell me that after using the demo for five years you have anyones best interest in mind apart from your own.


Dude, Sometimes you don't play enough or have the resources to buy the full game, yet you love it. He's not hurting anyone by playing the demo nor is he really affecting the devs much by not buying...As I always say, Real Life comes First. Also, why would it further the game or help others if he bought the game?

[richo]

Have you ever done work experience? And if you have would you think it reasonable to be employed if you did a good job or is it ok to keep taking advantage of you and not paying you for your efforts?

Think about it.

[GenesisX]

I also would dislike having to put restrictions on demo - users on LFS. There are couple of reasons why I think that way. I think that primarily, LFS is really one of those only games that allow such a system of Demo (S0 xD) S1, S2, and possibly S3. Given that you have to only pay for the license once, that should remain true for Demo. Demo is a license. Even though you didn't have to pay for it, it should remain fee-free because it was free in the first place.

Secondly, I think that this will add more problems to the people dealing with the game than the people driving. Why? Sure, the dev's will get more income, but they will end up with more registrations. The people who have exceeded the set limitations (whether # Laps or set time limit) will return to get new accounts. Make an IP system people say; how about dynamic IP? How about computers running out of the same network, but different people? VPN? IP blockers? You will end up with a bloated database which will cause more hassle than good. Time better spent on other improvements such as our LFS!

Third, demo is a version, or stage, may it be, of itself. Making it like a trial will destroy its status as a stage in LFS. It is a license, just a restricted license like a learner's permit. Sure, in Canada at least, if you don't get your full driver's in 5 years after getting your learner's, you will have to re-apply again, but that includes the second stage. So in theory, S1s would need to have a time trial :razz:

Fourth, demo has its own community. Putting limitations on it would take away a big bulk of the whole LFS community. Leagues, servers will be empty. I will be missing many of the racing buddies in BL1 GTi.

And ofc, there are some people who just can't pay for it. Sure, you earn $100 000 US a year. Ofc you can pay for it. I for one, don't have income. Sure, maybe I am a lazy bum, but do you know my story. Maybe I can't find a job. Maybe my student schedule is way overbooked. And for some people, they don't have the means of paying for LFS. No credit card, no debit card, no visa, mastercard, no paypal, no money - order, and in some cases, no bank account.

I hope this doesn't happen, but if it does come true, I'll be missing a great majority of our population. I mean, "If it ain't broken, don't fix it!" It's great right now, works like a charm. And I think I love LFS so much is because it is unique like this; small number of developpers, the way it is developped (ing) -> the ideals of the developpers, the community!

I for one became S2 after a good 7 months of LFS, and one year after registration, and probably 1000 laps of BL1 Drifting. So, of course, with this and the above, I disagree 99.9% with this idea. The 0.1% is if this helps the developpers put out new physics and Scirocco next Friday, or if... I dunno, someone can get me a new computer that doesn't lag with 16 people on Grid :D

[roadrash17]

Have you ever done work experience? And if you have would you think it reasonable to be employed if you did a good job or is it ok to keep taking advantage of you and not paying you for your efforts?

Think about it.

Well, yes, I have done work, and have been taken advantage of...but, if the devs feel that it is right to keep the demo the way it is, then it is none of our business. Surely you take advantage of just about every free thing you can...

And, if you want the devs to make the most of their program so very badly, why not buy some demo user an s2 license? All I'm saying is that you don't need to beat up on people who can't afford to pay for it.

[Messiah]

I just post to post, no content and not really playing anymore, just checking the news once in a while and noticing a hell lot of demo players online :b

[richo]

No one is beating up people that cant afford it , if you truly could not afford it i would doubt that a computer and ISP bills would be high on your priorities.

[justasimfan]

I cannot believe some of the responses i read in this thread....I played lfs for years on my brother sim rig but i made an account only recently so i can post here.Why ? Because i believe lfs can become incredible if only the stance of the developers against user help (by making models of cars and tracks) is changed.

Anyway lfs is a simulation.It SHOULD have an unrestricted demo.Most people here learn about a realistic simulation and decide to try it.Some will like it,some will find that it comes short on many things.In any case because it is unrestricted a lot of people play on the demo servers and after they realize how good and fun it is they decide to become licensed members.There are people that played lfs for years on demo servers until they decided to buy it.Some people didn't have good equipment to justify buying the game.(For example having a crappy wheel is not the same with having a g25/g27 or fanatec 911 turbo wheel were you get the best with its clutch and h shifter) .

If you restrict the demo than i quarantee you many future buyers will be lost.As it is there are thousands of people that have lfs installed on their computers and someday they may decide to buy it.Some because they feel the game was improved enough to justify buying it,some because they have some money to spare,some because they feel they are pro drivers and want to move to other faster cars and tracks.

Also another note.People that moan about lfs is too hardware demanding are forgeting that lfs is still dx8 based and it runs incredibly fast on everything that is around the last 4 years and was bought for at least $ 1000.A $1000 pc is a dirt cheap and you can use it for pretty much anything(movies,world,imaging,internet,mirc,phonin g and yes playing with older games)
If you complain why you get below 30 or below 60 frames on your $400 pc you bought from the grocery store than you must get a job.

My 3 and a half years old pc (E6700 2.66 C2Duo Oc at 3Ghz,4gb xms pc6400,gf 8800 ultra and a msi diamond mb ) runs the game at 1920x1200 with aa and af with a 16 car grid at over 100-120 fps !!!!!

You can find from many powersellers on Ebay for 1000-1200 ready builded gaming i7 or even quad cores that would run lfs at max graphics at 300 + frames...

The game is already too graphically dated and probably this is the primary reason why many people do not buy it.I have many friends that their initial impression of lfs was bad but when they played it on my brothers sim rig they absolutely loved it.( because they got passed the graphics ....)

[TehPaws3D]

Some people didn't have good equipment to justify buying the game.(For example having a crappy wheel is not the same with having a g25/g27 or fanatec 911 turbo wheel were you get the best with its clutch and h shifter) .

If you restrict the demo than i quarantee you many future buyers will be lost.As it is there are thousands of people that have lfs installed on their computers and someday they may decide to buy it.Some because they feel the game was improved enough to justify buying it,some because they have some money to spare,some because they feel they are pro drivers and want to move to other faster cars and tracks.

Also another note.People that moan about lfs is too hardware demanding are forgeting that lfs is still dx8 based and it runs incredibly fast on everything that is around the last 4 years and was bought for at least $ 1000.A $1000 pc is a dirt cheap and you can use it for pretty much anything(movies,world,imaging,internet,mirc,phonin g and yes playing with older games)


The game is already too graphically dated and probably this is the primary reason why many people do not buy it.I have many friends that their initial impression of lfs was bad but when they played it on my brothers sim rig they absolutely loved it.( because they got passed the graphics ....)

1+ I think you pretty much closed this thread.

[NunoMike]

You guys are simply messing things up.

Did any of you thought about what is the Devs idea about the Demo?

A Demo is a Demo. Something that is a little part of something, being a game, a piece of tissue or food.

What are the consequences to YOU that a couple of other guys keep amusing themselves in a demo server?

When a guy is fed up of BL and the 3 cars, he has two choices:
- Leave LFS Demo;
- Buy S2;
The third choice is keep using the Demo, which is something perfectly legal and perfectly acceptable. After all, he's the one who is fed up, not me.

That aproach that "buy it, you darn thief, you don't know what you're missing in S2" is completely wrong, since he knows perfectly well what he's missing: HE ONLY HAS 3 OUT OF 20 CARS AND 2 OUT OF 48 LAYOUTS! The questions is if that fulfills his needs and for how long it will...

Can you demand a guy to buy a house, when he prefers a camping tent REMAX (sorry for the advertisement) gave him in a propaganda campaign in the garden? No, they gave it to him with no conditions, but he cant argue about it being very cold in the winter. "Well, if you want a cosy place to live, buy one of our houses!".

In resume of all this, if you put some limitation in time usage, people will use it and put it aside... Most of nowadays S1/S2 users bought it when they wanted to. If you imposed a 6 months limitation period, 60% of licenced users wouldn't have bought it. That's my opinion...

Leave the Demo as it is. It's Demoers' problem if it fills their needs or not. LFS Demo is not other game or a simplified version: it's an ONLINE DEMO!!!

[dadge]

nobody has called anyone a theif. nor have they demanded demo users buy the game.

again, a demo is a demonstration of a full product. if you're still playing the demop after 12 months then imo, the demo didn't work as it was intended. a demo is a limited bit of a product designed to intice a person to buy the full product.

a demo user only become beneficial to LFS once they have purchased the full content. why? because they have made the most important contribution to LFS, supporting the development.
a demo user is using the restricted software for free. this cost them nothing. the users who have no intention of purchasing the full content will never add to the development to LFS so you can't even think of them as potential customers because they do not plan on buying the game at all. adding a time restriction will weed out the potental buyers from the non buyers. stay or go, a non buyer is a non buyer.

if you go into a cafe and don't buy anything, it will not be long before you're asked to leave. why? because you (as a customer) are not contributing to the business.

[GenesisX]

I think you are getting way cooped up in the financial aspects of helping the game. Money isn't everything. And in many cases, more money after a point isn't going help the developers develop faster, nor better.

Demos can definitely benefit LFS without buying a license. If they are good sports in the LFS servers, and set a good example for other drivers, the servers will become better. That will encourage less people to leave, and continue playing LFS, and potentially bring in more people with license. (Of course, this is given from the fact that more money is always better). In addition, any LFS driver can always become potential advertisers. They can always be nice in the LFS forum community. That would increase the drivers. This cycle would continue.

You can never rule out that anyone has no intention of buying the game. Anything is possible. And if you can say that, that is just pure ignorance. I've seen people buying a license after years of just DEMO-ing.

The fact is that once the developers have created the game, they no longer need to contribute. The servers themselves are owned privately. So, in theory, the developers don't need compensation after the one time license. The developers can leave right now (ofc, that would be unfavorable for the community), but the racing and the servers would probably continue (unless the master server is down).

EDIT: LFS is not a café. People are told to leave for not buying something is because they are hindering potential business. This is not the case with LFS. There are n number of licenses, and having more DEMO doesn't mean less S1/2; and thus would not be hindering potential customers from buying the game.

[dadge]

it has nothing to do with being cooped up on one ascpet of a full product. LFS is a product. this product is for sale. if we like the product, we purchase this product. it's the way a business works. there is no middle ground when it comes to business.

you may think that i'm being too cooped up on the financial side of LFS but at the end of the day, the demo was made to increase revenue. this doesn't happen when a demo user has no intention buying the full product.

potential business is only that when there is a potential customer base. if Mr x has no plans on buying the product, then he is not a potential customer. and therefore, the demo has failed to do what it was designed to do.
to say "Mr x is not harming anyone so let him be" is also wrong. he is harming the potential customer base by showing that you do not need to buy a license because you can play the demo for an unlimited time.
even calling S2 license holders (and demo users) "the community" is wrong. this is a fanbase. nothing more.

[justasimfan]

Sorry for reviving this conversation but what the hell are you smoking man ?
Are you out of your #%$#% mind ? A demo is a demo.If people buy it then that would help the developers.If they keep it on their hard drives and race from time to time they will have the game on their mind and may speak about it in forums or to their friends.The advertisement they do brings more people to test and talk about lfs and that is a good thing.Also some people eventually if they feel the game has improved enough or they buy expensive equipment they may decide to buy the game.

What the hell is your problem if people play the demo on their private servers they PAY TO MAINTAIN ??

And on another matter lfs is being programmed by 3 people.How much money do they need to keep developing ? There are at least 20.000 subscribers with each having paid around $ 20-40 .So common now stop this bullshiting##%@ or do you get commisions from suscribers ?

[Dupson]

My story:
I ve been playing the demo since .... 2004 afair ( check my signature). That time i couldnt afford to buy full ver. Now i can but content seems to be little outdated.

And remember that almost each game with pass of time gets cheaper. Its obvious - u get something old - you pay less. But for LFS you ve to pay 20E even tho the game is like (?) 5 years old. This is for me quite ununderstandable


ok i just like to start by saying this is not a demo hater thread, i'm a member of cargames.nl and we have a popular server for demo users to use.

i used demo for a few "years" back in the day, and because i was impressed bought the game got more content and the devs got alittle pay rise aswell :D lol.

my question is this. demo is like s0 if you will..... you can play as long as you want with 3 cars and one track (iirc). people play it for years, and even tho demo players in some cases do go on the buy the game and support the devs and development, some dont. they have played for years will continue too.

so.... should the demo version be restricted so once people have tried and tested lfs they have to buy to continue to play?

limited number of laps / time maybe?

again not a demo flame, just wanted to know peoples opinions. after all DEMO is demo.

[dadge]

Sorry for reviving this conversation but what the hell are you smoking man ?
Are you out of your #%$#% mind ? A demo is a demo.If people buy it then that would help the developers.If they keep it on their hard drives and race from time to time they will have the game on their mind and may speak about it in forums or to their friends.The advertisement they do brings more people to test and talk about lfs and that is a good thing.Also some people eventually if they feel the game has improved enough or they buy expensive equipment they may decide to buy the game.

What the hell is your problem if people play the demo on their private servers they PAY TO MAINTAIN ??

And on another matter lfs is being programmed by 3 people.How much money do they need to keep developing ? There are at least 20.000 subscribers with each having paid around $ 20-40 .So common now stop this bullshiting##%@ or do you get commisions from suscribers ?the plan is to offer opinions. so what, you don't agree. it's what a discussion is. you think i'm bullshitting, good for you. but all my points are valid and i didn't even have to insult anybody in the process.

you don't really know how business work do you? i don't have a problem with demo users playing the game on private servers. THIS IS ONLY A DISCUSSION! now how's about you go outside and take some fecking air onboard before you pass out.
how much money does it take to develope a game by 3 people? are we taking cost of living into this equation? what about the poor economy? what about travel expenses too? promotional events? what about equiptment to run these promotional events?
try taking off your blinkers and see the bigger picture.
so, i would ask you. what the **** are you smoking?
What the hell is your problem if people play the demo on their private servers they PAY TO MAINTAIN ??


was it just me or was that a bit of a pork pie? you say "pay to maintain". who pays? the demo holders? who do they pay? i know they don't pay the devs because the servers are private (like 500 servers for example). the money paid for servers go to those who run the servers. last i checked, the devs don't run the servers. so, pay to maintain what exactly?

[ATiRAGEPRO]

Sorry for reviving this conversation but what the hell are you smoking man ?
Are you out of your #%$#% mind ? A demo is a demo.If people buy it then that would help the developers.If they keep it on their hard drives and race from time to time they will have the game on their mind and may speak about it in forums or to their friends.They can do that even if the demo has a trial period that expires in 30 days.:really:

The advertisement they do brings more people to test and talk about lfs and that is a good thing.Also some people eventually if they feel the game has improved enough or they buy expensive equipment they may decide to buy the game. This is already the best, if not one of the best racing sims on the market, and doesn't require a monthly subscription. You know, when people like a game, they normally tend to BUY the game that they like. Now I know there are a few lowlife idiots out there who like to torrent games off the internet as apposed to paying for them, but for the most part, people pay for games they want. Just saying.:thumb:

What the hell is your problem if people play the demo on their private servers they PAY TO MAINTAIN ?? soooooo... Demo users have to pay to maintain servers, but the developers don't have to get paid to for developing this game?:shrug:

And on another matter lfs is being programmed by 3 people.How much money do they need to keep developing ? There are at least 20.000 subscribers with each having paid around $ 20-40 You know, I was one of those people supporting a demo without more restrictions, but your comment kinda pissed me off. :gnasher:

I am one of the people who thinks that the demo shouldn't be restricted, but as a software developer, I believe that the 3 developers have every right in the world to make as much money from their investment as they want. What the f*** does how much money they "need" have to do with anything??? THIS IS A F***ING BUSINESS!!! This isn't Government assistance for sh!t sake! What these people do with their own money is their business!

I find it reprehensible of you to even to say something like "And on another matter lfs is being programmed by 3 people.How much money do they need to keep developing?" AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY WANT!!!! We aren't buying the game so the developers can hurry up and make S3, we're buying the game because WE LIKE THE GAME WE BOUGHT!! The developers have no obligation to KISS YOUR ASS, either you like the game or you dont! If you don't like the game, DON'T BUY IT! What the hell do you mean "how much money do they "need" to continue developing? What the hell do you care?:shrug:

.So common now stop this bullshiting##%@ or do you get commisions from suscribers ? The licenses aren't annual subscriptions, and you only have to pay for them one time.:thumb:

And remember that almost each game with pass of time gets cheaper. Its obvious - u get something old - you pay less. But for LFS you ve to pay 20E even tho the game is like (?) 5 years old. This is for me quite ununderstandable

Big companies like EA and Activision can afford to go down on the price due to merchandising. Big companies actually have copies of their games on store shelves, therefore, It becomes essential for distributors to lower the prices to the store they are selling to after a while, in order to increase the demand for their product. Indie developers typically can't afford, or have no Idea how to do that. :(

I hope one day there will be box copies of this game available in stores. Seems like a good idea to me.:thumb:

[richo]

You see the master server and the forums run on love, pixie dust and virgin farts...

[TehPaws3D]

ATiRAGEPRO... Dude, The COLOR!

I used to be against it.. But reading some more posts I suppose, Demo could be limited to one month subscription, Every month you pay 5 dollars, Seems reasonable.

Or, Include a D-R-M type feature that checks for a account BEFORE you play. To insure not just anyone can go and crack the game.

Maybe it would be a dollar a month? At least something to show the developers some (Sorta) Love.

I 1+ The subscription. :D

[-NightFly-]

I've tried some cheap wheels (~$75) but they would either be too vague (non responsive?) or not work at all.


have you tried to look for second hand wheels? My teammate got me a dfp in perfect condition for 70$(should get with a lot less by now). It was a few yars back and still in same shape.

[justasimfan]

They can do that even if the demo has a trial period that expires in 30 days.:really:

This is already the best, if not one of the best racing sims on the market, and doesn't require a monthly subscription. You know, when people like a game, they normally tend to BUY the game that they like. Now I know there are a few lowlife idiots out there who like to torrent games off the internet as apposed to paying for them, but for the most part, people pay for games they want. Just saying.:thumb:

No they can't.You see most people may try the game with a crappy wheel or even a ...gasp keyboard !! They may eventually buy a decent steering wheel and then they are going to try some simulators with it.If they have lfs installed on their pc they may go the extra step and buy it.Also as i said before the game as incredible as it is on physics its really behind on other stuff.If a new,lets say vastly superior version comes up(With dx9 render,shaders,bloom,hdr etc..),a lot of people will be impressed or satisfied with the progress lfs has shown and decide finally to try it.If they have deleted the game do you think they are going to constantly check for newer versions ? I think not.And the only game that has monthly suscription is i-racing and a lot of people have given up on it even through it has improved hugely.




soooooo... Demo users have to pay to maintain servers, but the developers don't have to get paid to for developing this game?:shrug:

You know, I was one of those people supporting a demo without more restrictions, but your comment kinda pissed me off. :gnasher:

Some demo users have private servers they pay a shitload of money to keep running and have on them servers of various games.Having a demo server were people will join when trying the demo will give potential buyers a great experience of the full game and without having the developers to keep running servers by themselves.So those people help the developers to advertise their product yet you are pissed .ok...


I am one of the people who thinks that the demo shouldn't be restricted, but as a software developer, I believe that the 3 developers have every right in the world to make as much money from their investment as they want. What the f*** does how much money they "need" have to do with anything??? THIS IS A F***ING BUSINESS!!! This isn't Government assistance for sh!t sake! What these people do with their own money is their business!

I find it reprehensible of you to even to say something like "And on another matter lfs is being programmed by 3 people.How much money do they need to keep developing?" AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY WANT!!!! We aren't buying the game so the developers can hurry up and make S3, we're buying the game because WE LIKE THE GAME WE BOUGHT!! The developers have no obligation to KISS YOUR ASS, either you like the game or you dont! If you don't like the game, DON'T BUY IT! What the hell do you mean "how much money do they "need" to continue developing? What the hell do you care?:shrug:

The licenses aren't annual subscriptions, and you only have to pay for them one time.:thumb:

So you are a software developer ? Yeah right and i am the toothfairy.You sound like an angry 13 year old.
I do hope the devs sell as much licenses as they can.They made something good and they deserve to gain something from it.Other people release shit%$% and gain money so when people make something good they deserve to gain money.BUT WHAT I CONSTANTLY READ IN THESE forums is bul#$%$ that the devs cannot continue developing if more people do not buy s2 lisenses or that they cannot get more people to help them because they do not have money....I am sick of those excuses.For two reasons.First they probably earned enough to not have to work for the next 10 years and keep a high lifestyle(With the recent economic crysis many people barely get 20.000 income yearly...)
And second many many people here tried and ARE willing to give free help to the devs(for example models of cars and tracks) for nothing.The only thing they would ask is a mention in the credits...


Big companies like EA and Activision can afford to go down on the price due to merchandising. Big companies actually have copies of their games on store shelves, therefore, It becomes essential for distributors to lower the prices to the store they are selling to after a while, in order to increase the demand for their product. Indie developers typically can't afford, or have no Idea how to do that. :(

I hope one day there will be box copies of this game available in stores. Seems like a good idea to me.:thumb:

[ATiRAGEPRO]

No they can't.You see most people may try the game with a crappy wheel or even a ...gasp keyboard !! They may eventually buy a decent steering wheel and then they are going to try some simulators with it.If they have lfs installed on their pc they may go the extra step and buy it. So what?

Also as i said before the game as incredible as it is on physics its really behind on other stuff.If a new,lets say vastly superior version comes up(With dx9 render,shaders,bloom,hdr etc..),a lot of people will be impressed or satisfied with the progress lfs has shown and decide finally to try it.Good for them.

If they have deleted the game do you think they are going to constantly check for newer versions ? I think not.And the only game that has monthly suscription is i-racing and a lot of people have given up on it even through it has improved hugely. This had nothing to do with the comment I made. Either someone likes the game, or they don't. People aren't buying this game for the Z9 update, and I cant imagine anything more idiotic than not buying this game because the scirocco wasn't released yet.:shrug:

Some demo users have private servers they pay a shitload of money to keep running and have on them servers of various games.Now when you say "private" server, I assume you mean a in-home server, and if that's the case, than your comment makes no sense. You can buy any Piece of sh!t eMachine and make it a dedicated server, and you will only have to pay for it ONE TIME! there is no annual cost for this kind of thing. Expenses such as internet access and electricity are already necessities in any home, and one doesn't pay their electric bill for the SOLE PURPOSE of keeping the server running. You don't have to feed and bathe the g0d damn thing!

Having a demo server were people will join when trying the demo will give potential buyers a great experience of the full game and without having the developers to keep running servers by themselves.So those people help the developers to advertise their product yet you are pissed .ok... Again, that has nothing to do with any comment I made in my reply at all. In fact, this would be the fourth time I said that I was against further restricting the demo I have no problem with demo users, for Christ sake! I have a problem with this particular comment:

And on another matter lfs is being programmed by 3 people.How much money do they need to keep developing ? There are at least 20.000 subscribers with each having paid around $ 20-40

So you are a software developer ? Yeah right and i am the toothfairy.You sound like an angry 13 year old. This has to be the weakest insult I have ever seen in my entire life.:D I don't even know where to begin to remark oupon the senselessness of what you just wrote. I could see if I said that I was a
Theoretical Physicist from Princeton university or something, but we're talking about SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT. C is not exactly "sacred knowledge" hidden in secret underground tunnels in the pyramids of Egypt, reserved for the cultural elite. Anyone that knows how to use a search engine can learn to write software. (The Irony of that statement is that I started writing software when I was 13.)

I do hope the devs sell as much licenses as they can.They made something good and they deserve to gain something from it.Other people release shit%$% and gain money so when people make something good they deserve to gain money.BUT WHAT I CONSTANTLY READ IN THESE forums is bul#$%$ that the devs cannot continue developing if more people do not buy s2 lisenses. And what I constantly read on these forums are Emos whining about not being able to drive the Scirocco yet, and complaining like a bunch of p!ssants that the update is taking to long, and that the developers are either lazy or should stop the Scirocco all-together.

...or that they cannot get more people to help them because they do not have money....I am sick of those excuses.For two reasons.First they probably earned enough to not have to work for the next 10 years and keep a high lifestyle(With the recent economic crysis many people barely get 20.000 income yearly...) Though I may agree that those excuses are completely ridiculous, you are both wrong.

A software developer needs money to eat and have a roof over their head, and chances are the majority of the money they need is not going to come from their own software. An indie developer needs A JOB. Even if they only work a 9 to 5, chances are they aren't going to have all the free time in the world to dedicate to a software's development anyway. It doesn't cost MONEY to make software, it costs TIME, and when you are an Adult living in a capitalist society, chances are, you don't have all the time in the world to spend on your own software. Scawen may have a wife and kids for all we know, and if you are an Adult with a wife or a child, your time is going to be spent with them, not so much your software. Now if LFS were the developers main source of income, that would be a completely different story.

Both sides of this debate should keep in mind that the people behind this game might actually have LIVES. When you say something like:
they probably earned enough to not have to work for the next 10 years and keep a high lifestyle(With the recent economic crysis many people barely get 20.000 income yearly...) ... that is a statement that insinuates that they don't need to make money from their game because they "probably" have so much of it already, which is outright disrespectful. People tend to have this attitude that the money we spend on this game is some kind of allowance we give to the developers, as a special favor in order for them to release the Z9 patch earlier like a bunch of loan sharks, which is unbelievably arrogant and hilarious. Who the hell cares? why are we even discussing these people's budgets?? Who are you to say how much money is enough?

And second many many people here tried and ARE willing to give free help to the devs(for example models of cars and tracks) for nothing.The only thing they would ask is a mention in the credits... ... I think the devs are just scared that releasing the source of the game might cause someone to f*** up the physics of the game or something. Maybe they think the first guy they release the source to is going to make it public so that people will start pirating it on torrent sites or something. To be honest, I wouldn't want someone to d!ck around with the SRC of something I sell either.:thumb:

[CodieMorgan]

...If you restrict the demo than i quarantee you many future buyers will be lost...

quarantee + 'n' = quaranteen = quarantine

Result:
...quarantine you many future buyers...

/thread :monkey:

[zeugnimod]

BUT WHAT I CONSTANTLY READ IN THESE forums is bul#$%$ that the devs cannot continue developing if more people do not buy s2 lisenses or that they cannot get more people to help them because they do not have money....I am sick of those excuses.

Could you give 10 or at least 5 links to posts saying that? Should be easy for you to find since you CONSTANTLY READ THAT ON HERE.

[TehPaws3D]

justasimfan | ATiRAGEPRO

There's no need to insult anyone.. Can't you guys just have a nice normal discussion? Seems like we're going to insulting and stuff.. And that's not cool.

:schwitz:

[ATiRAGEPRO]

justasimfan | ATiRAGEPRO

There's no need to insult anyone.. Can't you guys just have a nice normal discussion? Seems like we're going to insulting and stuff.. And that's not cool.

:schwitz: I don't recall insulting anyone.:Looking_a Are we reading the same posts, dude?

[justasimfan]

... I think the devs are just scared that releasing the source of the game might cause someone to f*** up the physics of the game or something. Maybe they think the first guy they release the source to is going to make it public so that people will start pirating it on torrent sites or something. To be honest, I wouldn't want someone to d!ck around with the SRC of something I sell either.:thumb:


But i posted here countless times asking the devs to simply make contest for people to make high quality models(minus the badges) for the existing cars or for upcoming cars.The same with tracks make contest for the best track update or for the best track and leave the final decision of what to integrade in the actual game to the devs themselves.That way they don't have to release the sourse code and physics are still going to be handled by themselves.Only the models would be changed and after a few months some incredible models will be made.

All the above by simply making a contest mention in the main page of lfs.

People would not ask for money.The only thing they would ask is a mention in the credits section.This way the devs don't have any reason to be afraid of anything..
i started posting in lfs forums after many years because its a pity that we have many talented modelers and textures (just take a look at LFSMODS and have in mind most models there are work of a few days each and the modders that made them knew that most people wont try them because they do not want to replace the main files) and the devs do not use their help.

There are even 3d marketplaces that sell for reasonable prices some amazing car models.....

Just have a look here :
http://www.turbosquid.com/Search/3D-Models/Vehicle/Car

Honestly i cannot believe that for $ 100-150 you can get some ultra detailed car models full with their interiors that are 10000 times better looking than the current models .

[richo]

Let me get the straight, $100-$150 is ok for high quality models yet $40.00 US is too expensive to buy the sim in the first place?

Makes perfect sense:shrug:

[justasimfan]

I am talking for game development costs............

Large companies shed a shitload of money to make a game.(For example killzone 2 costed around $ 50.000.000 .

Indy developers do not have that much amount of money.But spending $1000 for updating the existing models with super detailed versions and with another

$1000 adding another dozen of cars each a steal for them.The physics for the current cars would stay unchanged and if they add new cars they would only have to adjust their physics as models and interiors would be fully modeled.

When there are thousands of lfs players starving for some new content how much does it cost to the devs to update their dated looking cars with ultra high detail cars and double the amount of cars with only having to work on physics ? (There are currently 20000-25000 lfs s2 players that payed $40 each so spending $1000-$2000 for those cars are literary a steal.:)

[cargame.nl]

So if we have ultra high detail cars, we have more racers?

Doubt that.

More kiddies crashing, I'm afraid.


Honestly i cannot believe that for $ 100-150 you can get

Just for $32 you can get S2, I cannot believe that!

[justasimfan]

I think you don't understand.Those $100-150 for each cars are property rights.The devs can use those cars as they want as they "buy" it.You are not going to pay yourself that money to have those cars installed.The devs can buy them and integrade them in lfs immediately.The original authors don't care if Scawen,Victor and Eric make $100.000 more because they used those cars to update their game.Understand now ?

People are willing to model for free but Scawen ,Victor and Eric keep refusing :( The reason they give is that they are afraid about the quality of the content.That is not really a problem as i explained by making contest only top notch stuff will get used...

But now there is no excuse.Those cars models are incredible and with work done only on physics the devs can add many more cars in a matter of a few weeks.

We are all waiting for almost 5 years for new content.We are waiting for ....ahem one car,the scirocco for almost 2.5 years....

In that 3d market there are a few dozen triple AAA quality car models with fully modeled interiors ready to be used for literary peanuts....

I didn't even knew such incredible quality models existed for sale to be honest.

Again if Scawen,Victor and Eric read this take those MODELS !!!!

[TehPaws3D]

I think you don't understand.Those $100-150 for each cars are property rights.The devs can use those cars as they want as they "buy" it.You are not going to pay yourself that money to have those cars installed.The devs can buy them and integrade them in lfs immediately.The original authors don't care if Scawen,Victor and Eric make $100.000 more because they used those cars to update their game.Understand now ?

It's not like you can just drag and drop some rendered masterpiece into a game, You have to down size it a little as we are running with DX8. We might even upgrade to DX10 or DX9 on the patch, But that's a long shot, Those high detailed cars are probably cars that have taken days or hours to render, And you can't put that car in the game. It'd look so out of place it's not even funny, Plus you have to have it low quality too so the lower end computers have some what of a chance. You have to make sure it's not glitching, Alot of stuff.

People are willing to model for free but Scawen ,Victor and Eric keep refusing :( The reason they give is that they are afraid about the quality of the content.That is not really a problem as i explained by making contest only top notch stuff will get used...

It's not about the quality it's about the quantity, Sure, You have some guys that could make super high detailed cars for LFS, Which is awesome, But how do they know what power the engine is, How do they know how to "Make it fair" So you don't have one car used because it's got so many advantages. Then you have the problem if it's freetime creators then you could have hundreds or thousands of useless car models that one a selected few use. Then you have the hundreds of skins and setups that could accompany it, And we aren't talking about replacing a FZR with a Porsche, Cause we already have illegal VOB. mods. We're talking about a physical NEW car.

But now there is no excuse.Those cars models are incredible and with work done only on physics the devs can add many more cars in a matter of a few weeks.

True, We could have 150 for all we care, But it causes to much clutter for three people to work on, You'll have glitches that are seldom ever fixed, Graphic glitches, All sorts, If you get much more cars and tracks, Then you basically are turning LFS a standby mode. Until they get more people working with them, Or more people Helping, Or raise the price, Make LFS 50$ for S2 and 25$ for S1, That could atleast put 5 people working on it.

We are all waiting for almost 5 years for new content.We are waiting for ....ahem one car,the scirocco for almost 2.5 years....

Yes but that's all you know, They could have a few new cars waiting that aren't even named, Or have anything to preview, And even if it's just ONE car, I answered it above, It's most likely not going to be glitchy at all, Allowing them to nicely move on to other cars/tracks, And what do you expect three people to do.. They have lives too..

In that 3d market there are a few dozen triple AAA quality car models with fully modeled interiors ready to be used for literary peanuts....

Yeah, But what's the problem with the ones we have, Sure, It's not alot, But it will improve.

Again if Scawen,Victor and Eric read this take those MODELS !!!!

I for one don't want newer models, It's going to cause me to have to download more.. And then you have the millions of possible models.. So i -1 this idea, They are going fine.

[zeugnimod]

Am I the only one getting really annoyed by "justasimfan"?

He basically has 43 posts (atm) saying exactly the same thing, just with slightly different words. The devs don't want to add user-made contest at this point and that's it. It's their game/sim and they can decide that without giving a specific reason. It's fine if you post your suggestion once but you don't have to post the same post in every thread in the General LFS Discussion and Improvement Suggestions forums. :x

Why didn't you use your original account (I don't know who you are but it's pretty obvious that it's a 2nd account), btw? Or is that one bent? :D

[dadge]

Am I the only one getting really annoyed by "justasimfan"?

He basically has 43 posts (atm) saying exactly the same thing, just with slightly different words. The devs don't want to add user-made contest at this point and that's it. It's their game/sim and they can decide that without giving a specific reason. It's fine if you post your suggestion once but you don't have to post the same post in every thread in the General LFS Discussion and Improvement Suggestions forums. :x

Why didn't you use your original account (I don't know who you are but it's pretty obvious that it's a 2nd account), btw? Or is that one bent? :D+1 i thought it could be a 2nd account too. any users get banned last month?

[cargame.nl]

I think you don't understand.

...

Again if Scawen,Victor and Eric read this take those MODELS !!!!


I think you don't understand me. Why are you yelling about MODELS!!!!

If you are too lazy TO BUY SSSSSS TWWWWOOO!!!

:D

$100 - $150 are not the property rights btw. Don't you think a car company is going to complain if one of their models is used this way?

And if you think $100 - $150 is nothing, go buy S2, you fool {B.A. Baracus mode}

[molocco]

it is unbelievable how greedy some people can be!
lfs is one of the games i´m playing for years and we recieved countless updates and features for free in this time. how can anybody be envy of a demo user? most people just don´t get the different business modell of lfs anyways. if the devs were like any other game company we would be probably at lfs part 7 or 8 now and had to pay five times the money for every part.
just tell me three other games from 2001 to 2004 that you still play and that are not open for modding to keep you on it! you see?
why do you not let have other people have fun with the limited content of the demo? if the devs have any problems with that "overuse" of the demo the can restrict it anytime they want! if they choose to leave the demo unrestricted than respect that decision. also they did infact "restrict" the demo in the way that you have to register now to get rid of the worst wreckers.

so instead of picking on the poor demo users encourage them to play clean and fair and convince them to buy a licence to multiply the fun they have in the full version.

peace, mo

[lillsnortan]

came in to my lfs server server name is hp???? just drive

[justasimfan]

It's not like you can just drag and drop some rendered masterpiece into a game, You have to down size it a little as we are running with DX8. We might even upgrade to DX10 or DX9 on the patch, But that's a long shot, Those high detailed cars are probably cars that have taken days or hours to render, And you can't put that car in the game. It'd look so out of place it's not even funny, Plus you have to have it low quality too so the lower end computers have some what of a chance. You have to make sure it's not glitching, Alot of stuff.

Techpaws3d actually you can put those masterpieces easily in the game.They are 3d studio files and all you have to do is save/convert them to dds format something that can be easily done with a converter...

You don't have to upgrade to newer dx versions as those cars simply have extreme polygon numbers and very high resolutions textures.

And for older computer you can simply decrease the polygon quantity and save the car on another dds file.Depending of the quality option for cars chosen in the option the game could use a low -medium or high polygon number model.And about glitches -there are none.Those models are full my friend...Glitches occur when models are unfinished and have wrong joints,textures that do not much or unfinished interiors.Those cars are PERFECTLY MODELED SO there is no fear for a single glitch !




It's not about the quality it's about the quantity, Sure, You have some guys that could make super high detailed cars for LFS, Which is awesome, But how do they know what power the engine is, How do they know how to "Make it fair" So you don't have one car used because it's got so many advantages. Then you have the problem if it's freetime creators then you could have hundreds or thousands of useless car models that one a selected few use. Then you have the hundreds of skins and setups that could accompany it, And we aren't talking about replacing a FZR with a Porsche, Cause we already have illegal VOB. mods. We're talking about a physical NEW car.



True, We could have 150 for all we care, But it causes to much clutter for three people to work on, You'll have glitches that are seldom ever fixed, Graphic glitches, All sorts, If you get much more cars and tracks, Then you basically are turning LFS a standby mode. Until they get more people working with them, Or more people Helping, Or raise the price, Make LFS 50$ for S2 and 25$ for S1, That could atleast put 5 people working on it.



Yes but that's all you know, They could have a few new cars waiting that aren't even named, Or have anything to preview, And even if it's just ONE car, I answered it above, It's most likely not going to be glitchy at all, Allowing them to nicely move on to other cars/tracks, And what do you expect three people to do.. They have lives too..



Yeah, But what's the problem with the ones we have, Sure, It's not alot, But it will improve.



I for one don't want newer models, It's going to cause me to have to download more.. And then you have the millions of possible models.. So i -1 this idea, They are going fine.


Techpaws3d as i said previously those models are PERFECT by any means of imagination.They have NO glitches.

Also no physics are going to be touched.Just the basic models replaced with those incredible ones.
For the cars that are not featured already in lfs the physics will be made by the devs.

Its a real pity if those models are not used.

[lillsnortan]

anywon is cand off lonley thear

[lillsnortan]

you can drift on it :) come on the server plz anywon

[zeugnimod]

+1 i thought it could be a 2nd account too. any users get banned last month?

No idea.

It's also interesting how he only responds to posts where he can answer with his usual "the devs don't have an excuse for not having user-made content" post. :tilt:

[lillsnortan]

plz came in to the server plz

[TehPaws3D]

Techpaws3d actually you can put those masterpieces easily in the game.They are 3d studio files and all you have to do is save/convert them to dds format something that can be easily done with a converter...

You don't have to upgrade to newer dx versions as those cars simply have extreme polygon numbers and very high resolutions textures.

And for older computer you can simply decrease the polygon quantity and save the car on another dds file.Depending of the quality option for cars chosen in the option the game could use a low -medium or high polygon number model.And about glitches -there are none.Those models are full my friend...Glitches occur when models are unfinished and have wrong joints,textures that do not much or unfinished interiors.Those cars are PERFECTLY MODELED SO there is no fear for a single glitch !


Techpaws3d as i said previously those models are PERFECT by any means of imagination.They have NO glitches.

Also no physics are going to be touched.Just the basic models replaced with those incredible ones.
For the cars that are not featured already in lfs the physics will be made by the devs.

Its a real pity if those models are not used.

Okay, First, Learn how to spell my name TehPaws3D How in hell did you get Tech?

Second, If it's so easy, To create these car models, Where is your proof? I"m getting slightly pissed off with you, It's not like you can slap a car Which remind you was RENDERED. Into a game, And put tires on it and say "Off yeh go!?" No, It doesn't work that way, You have to make sure it works WITH THE PHYSICS And then you have to make all the setup options, And make sure it handles to "Sim" reality.

Third, The cars in game do not run off DDS, They run off VOB. Having two files would be most likely carnage in the files / engine of LFS.

Forth, You are a DEMO, User, Meaning you don't know what 80% of the cars are and 93% of the tracks! If you want to support the devs and then maybe, Just maybe. They would put your super terrific high car models in the game. And my computer, Nvidia 8400 GS with 2.20 GHZ could manage 1,000,000 polygons moving at 50 MPH in a full field, You're talking about, Wait for it. 32,000,000 + Track Polygons! That's over 20 million! That's out of your mind! Plus the physics calculations!

That's not saying all computers can't do this, But i'm not one for spending 1000 - 2000$ just to play LFS, Hell no.

And lillsnortan ..? What are you talking about?

[boothy]

They are 3d studio files and all you have to do is save/convert them to dds format something that can be easily done with a converter...

You just lost the argument...

[ATiRAGEPRO]

plz came in to the server plzSorry dude, but nobody cares. This is the wrong place to spam your server.:really:

Large companies shed a shitload of money to make a game.(For example killzone 2 costed around $ 50.000.000 .

Indy developers do not have that much amount of money.But spending $1000-$2000 for those cars are literary a steal.Large companies spend a large portion of the cost on their employees, and are you out of your mind?!?!?!!?!? The developers made most of the car models THEMSELVES, and you are saying spending $1000-$2000 on some god d@mn car models is A STEAL!?!?!?!

Why the hell SHOULD they spend that much money for car models? There are already 20 cars in the game to begin with!:shrug: I ask again, why are you making bogus assumptions about what the developers can afford?

I don't understand how you think adding more car models is going to make this a more enjoyable or better selling game. As much as I like this game, there are a sh!t load of other problems that can and should be fixed if the trio decide to go open source. I don't get why you are making such a big fuss over the car models.

And for older computer you can simply decrease the polygon quantity and save the car on another dds file.Depending of the quality option for cars chosen in the option the game could use a low -medium or high polygon number model.And about glitches -there are none.Those models are full my friend...Glitches occur when models are unfinished and have wrong joints,textures that do not much or unfinished interiors.Those cars are PERFECTLY MODELED SO there is no fear for a single glitch ! .... Have you ever tried decreasing the polygon of a Freeform Mesh Object?:Looking_a automatic polygon pruning in 3d programs either DON'T WORK, or they leave your object looking like a six-sided turd! Most of the wire frame ends up having to be pruned manually, and there is no bigger pain in the ass than buying an object from sites like renderosity.com (http://www.renderosity.com/), and having to erase most of it's mesh so that it can actually RUN in a game. It is a f***ing nightmare to have to do that.:Looking_a If the Devs actually DID waste their money on those models, there is no way in hell those cars are going to run well on any decent computer, let alone laptops that only run DirectX8.1.

Unfinished polygons and adding the wrong texture to an object has literally NOTHING to do with a what causes a glitch! Glitches are caused by framebuffer issues, or the code. There are plenty of games (GTA: San Andreas for PC being an outstanding example) that half-ass their polygon and texture design that don't f**k up the game.:smileypul

If you claim that there are people here that would make car models for free, why even bother suggesting they spend $1000 on some car models? I ASK AGAIN, why do you keep making bullsh!t assumptions about what the developers can afford??:shrug: $1000 to $2000 for CAR DESIGNS is not exactly a drop in the bucket for sh!t sake!:Looking_a

[John Hilton]

Well i think this is one of my longer threads :thumb: :D :x

nice to see some opinions :thumb:

just got my g27 from logitech as my g25 broke :(

nice to see some names i know

.... anyway back to topic


flame away


posted this from my phone so sorry if it came out wrong :shrug:

[cargame.nl]

All these font colors and sizes... Its amazing...

But what was the discussion.. Car models? Huh?

What has that got to do with 'demo' users.. :shrug:

[TehPaws3D]

All these font colors and sizes... Its amazing...

But what was the discussion.. Car models? Huh?

What has that got to do with 'demo' users.. :shrug:
It's a RAINBOW Of Emotion
Anyway.. I don't know, I thought once he was talking about demo cars and that demo needed more cars.. Then I was like.. Maybe he's talking about s2 when he doesn't have it..

I don't get the discussion, So I'm just going to leave it alone and never come back, Honestly, I'm feeling a in before the lock thread.. :shrug:

[ATiRAGEPRO]

All these font colors and sizes... Its amazing... I know, Right? :D

But what was the discussion.. Car models? Huh?

What has that got to do with 'demo' users.. :shrug:I have no Idea.:Looking_a

Anywho, Demo + more restrictions = bad.:shrug:

[justasimfan]

Okay, First, Learn how to spell my name TehPaws3D How in hell did you get Tech?

Second, If it's so easy, To create these car models, Where is your proof? I"m getting slightly pissed off with you, It's not like you can slap a car Which remind you was RENDERED. Into a game, And put tires on it and say "Off yeh go!?" No, It doesn't work that way, You have to make sure it works WITH THE PHYSICS And then you have to make all the setup options, And make sure it handles to "Sim" reality.

Third, The cars in game do not run off DDS, They run off VOB. Having two files would be most likely carnage in the files / engine of LFS.

WELL TEHPAWS3D first calm down.Second you are wrong on many many things.

Actually as i said before YES IT IS SO EASY.I am not talking making new physics for the existing cars-they are perfect.
All i say is replace the low poly .dds (direct draw surface ) of the existing cars with those super high polygon masterpieces.

Instead accusing somebody for trying his best to help the game make some study and check the site i keep talking about.LFSMODS.There are there many cars(not perfect by any means of imagination) that you simply replace the original dds files for the model of the body and the dds for the interiors.

Physics/tires/suspensions all these are not been touched by anybody!

Now you get it man ? Physics will stay (for the existing cars) untounched.

Only the model of the car will be replaced with those masterpieces models.

Also have in mind if the contest i keep ranting about was actually made eventually users could make models almost if not as good.




Forth, You are a DEMO, User, Meaning you don't know what 80% of the cars are and 93% of the tracks! If you want to support the devs and then maybe, Just maybe. They would put your super terrific high car models in the game. And my computer, Nvidia 8400 GS with 2.20 GHZ could manage 1,000,000 polygons moving at 50 MPH in a full field, You're talking about, Wait for it. 32,000,000 + Track Polygons! That's over 20 million! That's out of your mind! Plus the physics calculations!

That's not saying all computers can't do this, But i'm not one for spending 1000 - 2000$ just to play LFS, Hell no.

And lillsnortan ..? What are you talking about?


By your tone you are telling me that if someone is a demo user he must go to hell or suffer a simiral terrible fate ? :)
But now really i have been playing Lfs from time to time for years on my brothers sim rig.Buying a second license and not be able to play it properly...(with a g25 and having a chassis with a car chair...) is not the same.
I did make this account through because i wanted to speak about a couple of things.I see that what was a few years back years ahead of its time it is slowly but steadily declining.Its not that the devs do not try-actually for 3 people to come so far is nothing sort of a feat by itself.

But devs nowdays if they don't have enough money and resourses try to think outside the "box " for example as isi did with rfactor by having user made content.
Another way is to "buy" some models and track objects and have your development time reduced to a third of the time it will take you to make all those stuff yourself.

Also the above way is incredibly "cheap" .To hire a modeler and texturer and make those cars he would have to work almost for a year and ask 20-$25000 for his work....You can buy those models from the marketplace and use them for $1000-2000 and that is a steal my friends.

Think it this way for $1000-2000 the devs can have all the cars updated and having months or even years of work immediately completed.

Also about the effect on perfomance.Those models even through they are 500.000-1.000.000 polygons when saved to other formats like dds they can have the polygons reduced.So you can change in the game option from low (wich will have low polys models of those cars with a couple of thousand polys only 5000-10.000) a medium choice with 50000-100.000 and a high choice with full polygon numbers.

And a last thing.Not wanting to sound like a jerk but your computer is prehistoric.A 8400 is not good even to type worlds...! As i said earlier for a $1000 you can find on ebay gaming i7's computers.....

And even if you are that tight budgeted spending $1000 for something that will last you at least another 3-4 years are peanuts.

So stop whining (unless you are a 13 year old waiting for his weekly pocketmoney ....But even in that case try to find a...job )

[cargame.nl]

So stop whining (unless you are a 13 year old waiting for his weekly pocketmoney ....But even in that case try to find a...job )
You have a very big mouth for a demo user. When do you get a job to buy a S2 license?

You talk in dollars all the time, isn't it time to change your flag?

[AtomAnt]

You have a very big mouth for a demo user. When do you get a job to buy a S2 license?

You talk in dollars all the time, isn't it time to change your flag?

You also have pretty big mouth, I Fly Canada , Home of the DART team...Home of Lester Pearson
Winner of the Noble Peace Prize...what did your leader do?

Oh That's right..

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/09/shame-on-the-netherlands-wilders-to-go-on-trial-january-2010.html

Keep up the good work.

[cargame.nl]

What the?

Suddenly we switch to politics? What has that got to do with LFS?

You are not referring to a leader anyway. Be better informed before you get yourself involved in foreign politics.

Now back to this thread where a demo user is saying to a S2 licensed racer that he is a 13 year old whiner waiting on pocket money... (fail)

[ATiRAGEPRO]

You also have pretty big mouth, I Fly Canada , Home of the DART team...Home of Lester Pearson
Winner of the Noble Peace Prize...what did your leader do?

Oh That's right..What the hell does that have to do with anything?:shrug:
Actually as i said before YES IT IS SO EASY.I am not talking making new physics for the existing cars-they are perfect.
All i say is replace the low poly .dds (direct draw surface ) of the existing cars with those super high polygon masterpieces.
WHY?:really:


Instead accusing somebody for trying his best to help the game make some study and check the site i keep talking about.LFSMODS.There are there many cars(not perfect by any means of imagination) that you simply replace the original dds files for the model of the body and the dds for the interiors.Why?:really:

Physics/tires/suspensions all these are not been touched by anybody!

Now you get it man ? Physics will stay (for the existing cars) untounched.

Only the model of the car will be replaced with those masterpieces models. For what?:Looking_a

By your tone you are telling me that if someone is a demo user he must go to hell or suffer a simiral terrible fate ? :)Okay, you just pulled that comparison right out of your @ss. :D This is hilarious.

But devs nowdays if they don't have enough money and resourses try to think outside the "box " for example as isi did with rfactor by having user made content. I like that Idea, to be honest.:nod: I just don't like the Idea of screwing with cars that already exist, and look just fine the way they are.:shrug:

You can buy those models from the marketplace and use them for $1000-2000 and that is a steal my friends. .... :Looking_a There is no way in hell you can be serious. I could pay my rent for an entire month for around $1000.:really: Again, if you want user made content, WHY are you suggesting the developers buy sh!t?

Think it this way for $1000-2000 the devs can have all the cars updated and having months or even years of work immediately completed. Again I ask, why are you making bullsh!t assumptions about what the developers can afford?? why are you suggesting the developers pay that much money for something they already made??:shrug:

Also about the effect on perfomance.Those models even through they are 500.000-1.000.000 polygons when saved to other formats like dds they can have the polygons reduced.So you can change in the game option from low (wich will have low polys models of those cars with a couple of thousand polys only 5000-10.000) a medium choice with 50000-100.000 and a high choice with full polygon numbers.
... Have you ever tried decreasing the polygon of a Freeform Mesh Object?:Looking_a automatic polygon pruning in 3d programs either DON'T WORK, or they leave your object looking like a six-sided turd! Most of the wire frame ends up having to be pruned manually, and there is no bigger pain in the ass than buying an object from sites like renderosity.com (http://www.renderosity.com/), and having to erase most of it's mesh so that it can actually RUN in a game. It is a f***ing nightmare to have to do that.:Looking_a If the Devs actually DID waste their money on those models, there is no way in hell those cars are going to run well on any decent computer, let alone laptops that only run DirectX8.1.

Oh my god, dude. You cannot be serious.

[ATiRAGEPRO]

You know what? I think someone needs to PM an active moderator and ask him/her to move this arguement to a thread called "LFS Open-source" in the Suggestions forum or something.:shrug:

Just doesn't seem like this debate belongs here.

[justasimfan]

You have a very big mouth for a demo user. When do you get a job to buy a S2 license?

You talk in dollars all the time, isn't it time to change your flag?


Read my whole article man before critisize....I don't want to buy another s2 license as for the moment i would have to play with a shitty wheel...(when i want i can with a cockpit with a car chair and a g25 wheel...)

Those hate for demo users come from within ? Burn the demo users hehheh ?

And i talk in dollars because that is the currency everyone on internet is using.Sure we have the pound and the euro but when i buy something from the net i always tend to pay with dollars.And even there is ebay.co.uk you can find almost nothing of worth there.Were in the normal ebay you can find dirt cheap many things(like computers and computer parts/peripherals) even with the shipping.

When you can buy a entry level(but 1366fsb !!:) ) i7 with a decent video card like a gtx285 or a 5 series ati and 3-6 gb of ddr3 memory at around $1000 that is a still my friends.I remember when the i7 was released even the entry level cpu's(1156fsb) where costing upwards of $1000 each....
Or lets talk about graphics cards a few years ago a gtx8800 ultra costed $1000 each...I am a gamer for almost 20 years and you cannot imagine(the youngest of you) how expensive high end gaming was back in the days...

I still remember the orchid righteus 3d(my first 3d card!! ) and my twin 3dfx voodoo 2 12mb! cards i worked for months to acquire !! :)

But nowdays even if you are in the lowest economic class if you work you can easily buy at least a decent computer.So instead fighting in the forums go and get a part time job.:)

[Messiah]

Stunning. This thread went from weird to worse and is filled with incredible amounts of nescience. You make yourself look stupid when arguing about things you don't even have a faint grasp on the facts.

Also, I think the demo is perfectly fine as it is, it still has the same content when I started playing years back (apart from remarkable physics updates of course!), it's ongoing fun and I appreciate that it doesn't slap you "BUY ME, YOU LITTLE PRICK!" splash screens in your face before playing, while playing and even after playing all over the place. Though you miss so much more with a full license, I'm not certain that I'm satisfied with the development over the past few years and the future anymore. Iirc I even pre-ordered my S2 license back then because the game was awesome fun and I was very satisfied at the time :P

Though I'd love some modifications, especially new tracks. For example tracks heavily inspired (not copied *cough*) by Trial Mountain, SS R5 or Grand Valley from Gran Turismo 1 :D ... I do love those and actually, after playing some GT2 again, I'm craving for it but it may just remain wishful thinking.

Once upon a time Scawen wrote that there may be tools for modding when S2 is "done" but alas... S2 is in alpha for ages and as many other old players, I don't know what to believe and what to expect for the future, maybe they'll add the Sicrocco in a year or two *shrugs* :P

[justasimfan]

You also have pretty big mouth, I Fly Canada , Home of the DART team...Home of Lester Pearson
Winner of the Noble Peace Prize...what did your leader do?

Oh That's right..

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/09/shame-on-the-netherlands-wilders-to-go-on-trial-january-2010.html

Keep up the good work.

Tell me that this a joke !! Oh God...I cannot believe that in 2010 and the whole world still is so messed up about religion....I remember when i studied there were people from all over europe and we got along just fine.Put some religion in the mix and everybody starts killing in the name of ...god...And "human rights" are all warped up lately.They sent you to jail if you dare speak about something BUT they have no problem to pay immigrants thousands every month for comming illegaly in a country yet the people that were born in a country get starving pensions and are out of work(where immigrands get thousands of euros every month by goverments to keep them behaving +plus they work for half the salary's people normally work for so half of europe's citizens are out of work...)

So the world is #$% up....

[justasimfan]

And sorry for repeating another thread but here are the cars i talk so much about (If devs could make a contest for making the best models there would be no reason for them to buy them but they are afraid) :

http://www.turbosquid.com/Search/3D-Models/Vehicle/Car

-There are dozens of incredibly amazing models complete with interiors.You can buy them for very logical prices(for 100-150 euros each but have in mind their quality gives a run for their money even to the "premium Gt5" models....)

-Also ALL real cars featured in lfs are there in mind boggling details
some examples :
http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/...o-model/488135 (http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-911-turbo-model/488135)

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/...als-car/457776 (http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3ds-scirocco-standard-materials-car/457776)

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPrevie....cfm/ID/228091 (http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/228091)

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPrevie....cfm/ID/551792 (http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/551792)

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPrevie....cfm/ID/554840 (http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/554840)

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPrevie....cfm/ID/544691 (http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/544691)

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPrevie....cfm/ID/530295 (http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/530295)

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPrevie....cfm/ID/532862 (http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/532862)

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3ds-max-rx7/485495

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/...a-supra/428586 (http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/maya-toyota-supra/428586)

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/...d-model/249217 (http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/toyota-celica-1991-3d-model/249217) http://www.lfsforum.net/images/misc/progress.gif http://www.lfsforum.net/images/buttons/edit.gif (http://www.lfsforum.net/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1482156)

[EQ Worry]

Well i think this is one of my longer threads :thumb: :D :x

Yeah! :thumb: Well, I sort of lost track long ago... :D But it was a good intention... :Looking_a Planning a new one? :razz:

[John Hilton]

Yeah! :thumb: Well, I sort of lost track long ago... :D But it was a good intention... :Looking_a Planning a new one? :razz:

lol its even in the wrong section now???? WTF? is it a improvement suggestion to make the demo users pay?? :x

[EQ Worry]

Hehe, actually, I think there were ideas that seem good to me. From don't repair what is not broken (slight majority, it seems), through extend demo by reversed BL tracks (very good idea, mine :D), to allow creation of cars and tracks and choose the best to be officially included. :thumb: Otherwise... uhm...

[dadge]

But now really i have been playing Lfs from time to time for years on my brothers sim rig.Buying a second license and not be able to play it properly...(with a g25 and having a chassis with a car chair...) is not the same.who's your brother?

[Victor]

hm ok, closing this thread as it seems to get out of hand.

I wrote this some time ago : we have nothing against demo racers. I think we made that clear by not having a time limit on the demo. On the other hand we do think that if people want more content, then they should pay for it. Afterall, if noone paid, we wouldn't be here right now. We'd have to get jobs elsewhere.
As for 'how much free content should there be?', well this has been discussed a long time ago and we think 3 cars, 2 track configs, free skin downloads, use of most our online services, all for free for as long as you want is totally decent. Not too little, not too much. There'll be enough people who do not agree with that of course, but that's not really our problem.

A thread like this is therefore quite useless and as has been proven will stir up some emotion. Why that happens .. I don't really know. It's strange to see people row about the contents of a product and even go completely off topic eventually, shouting at each other, trying to prove some point that I think everyone misses.

Time for a deep breath perhaps and realise there are more important things to life?