I really don't want to call Ferrari cheaters but..... [Archive]

speedfreak227

23rd April 2006, 04:52

zeeaq

23rd April 2006, 06:02

Well its really funny...i really dont understand why sooo many ppl have sooo many problems with ferrari.....they are a good team..and they have showed that several times....schumacher is a brilliant driver...schumi and ferrari were just doing too good....but now things are different...and thats how it is meant to be.....u know rise and fall....if it wasnt that way....F1 wouldnt be interesting....

Now for ur answer....well i dont wanna sound rude here...but what evidence do u have that they are cheats ??? dont get me wrong...but here u sound just like many others who makes comments without any reason or logic behind them....

And ya...if u were by any chance talking about the front wing on the ferrari flexing at higher speeds....then let me make it very clear..its all bullshit...if we look at it that way....then every team has something different from the other in their cars...the cars only look similar...but only on very close observation u find that they all have i high level of detail distinguishing them from others to improve aerodynamics..and lots more....and besides if it were a genuine flaw..the why do u think the FIA aint doing nything about it despite the constant compalints by opponent teams...?????:shrug:

atledreier

23rd April 2006, 06:18

Besides, it's Ferrari's home track. They have a lot of testing done here. The Ferrari chassis work very well there. It's Scumi's favourite track too, so naturally he'll perform good there. It's a combination of a million small factors. Besides, it's not like he beat the grid by 2 seconds.... Maybe he lucked out?

Blackout

23rd April 2006, 07:32

Ferrari allways puts lot of effort to homeraces, in both of them. Fans are important. And track was sligtly changed this year and I think they could have get some advantage from it because they must have tested there unlike other teams. But lets see the race, they could have used light fuel load. Its just hard to speculate because the fuelburnperiod in quali.

speedfreak227

27th April 2006, 15:44

cough cough, wink wink (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns16722.html)

speedfreak227

speedfreak227

27th April 2006, 16:27

i'd love to see them take a ferrari car and put it in a windtunnel for "active" testing.

speedfreak227

Bawbag

27th April 2006, 17:55

Ferrari wern't exactly the class of the field though were they? I mean they done great to win the race in the end with ALonso's pace but they kind of got handed it with the fact that he pitted earlier than scheduled :pillepall

I wouldn't mind seeing the outcome of this ferrari rear wing situation though, should be interesting.

But IMHO, calling them cheats is a bit..wrong?:smileypul

Blackout

27th April 2006, 19:35

But IMHO, calling them cheats is a bit..wrong?:smileypul

Fine...lets call them... bunch of h4x0rs!

Bawbag

27th April 2006, 20:11

Yea!!! ferrari ar3 t3h uber h4xorz!!oneone!!! th3y ar t3h pwnZor ube3r 1337zorzozZ!

Or just unlucky. :shrug:

:tilt:

wE1l

27th April 2006, 21:29

...... doesn't it seem suspicious that two years in a row they've started off with a semi-good-enough car for the first few races and then when they show up at their home track they've got a world-beater F1 machine all of a sudden?

as i remember last year their car wasn't that great after imola again as well. but maybe i'm remembering incorrectly.:pillepall

all i know is that this is the second year in a row they've made an incredible improvement for their home race. in fact, it's more of an improvement than most teams ever make with a car package update.

maybe it's just me:pillepall anyone else see it this way?

speedfreak227

Anyone who followed F1 would know last year Michelin made a mistake in tyre choice at Imola, the Michelin runners had their rubbers long gone towards the end of the race, while Bridgestones performed brilliantly especially two thirds onward in the race. That's simply the reason why Schumacher could close up so quickly. And this year, their car is just fast enough to keep Renualt honest.

By the way, the race at Imola is called the San Marino GP, Ferrari sucked big time at last year's Italian GP.

speedfreak227

27th April 2006, 22:02

Yea!!! ferrari ar3 t3h uber h4xorz!!oneone!!! th3y ar t3h pwnZor ube3r 1337zorzozZ!

is there a website i can visit to learn what that means? some sort of english-web translator?

speedfreak227

Gabkicks

27th April 2006, 23:03

canadian translation:
Yea!!! ferrari ar3 t3h uber h4xorz!!oneone!!! th3y ar t3h pwnZor ube3r 1337zorzozZ!, eh? :razz:

NotAnIllusion

27th April 2006, 23:06

canadian translation:
Yea!!! ferrari ar3 t3h uber h4xorz!!oneone!!! th3y ar t3h pwnZor ube3r 1337zorzozZ!, eh? :razz:

:uglyhamme

speedfreak227

27th April 2006, 23:25

canadian translation:
Yea!!! ferrari ar3 t3h uber h4xorz!!oneone!!! th3y ar t3h pwnZor ube3r 1337zorzozZ!, eh? :razz:
well why didn't Bawbag say that in the first place eh?:pillepall

i still don't lie ferrari though.

lemme try MacGuyvering this with my own style.....

1 s+177 d0n`+ 71k3 f3rr4r1 +h0u9h

how's that?:thumb:

speedfreak227

JJ72

28th April 2006, 12:17

last year's imola was a fluke because of the notably low track temperture. (if you read this month's F1 racing.)

as for this year, ferrari has been on pace in bahrain as well.

der butz

28th April 2006, 14:10

ArosaMike

28th April 2006, 15:35

okay, I have to throw my 2 cents into this circle.

First: I don't like ferrari at all. And please don't ask me for the real reason (let's say I don't like the ferrari image)

But the fia rules of 05 said that the rear wing may not deform under the weight of 100kg. I'm not into this aerodynamic stuff but maybe the wind resistance on such a wing gets higher than 100kg, therefor it would be allowed to build a somewhat flexible wing.

Or not?

I'm pretty sure the test load is more than 100kg. The wings on an F1 car generate a good tonne and a bit of downforce at speed. The rules state that the wing should not move at all as doing so reduces drag whilst maintaining downforce.

At the end of the day, all the teams bend (no pun intended) the rules one way or another as fundamentally that is part of the engineering skill in F1, but the thing that pisses me of is the way that Ferrari so often seem to get away with it.

You get the feeling though (true or not I don't know) that there's a bit of an agreement between Mosely and Ferrari. Look at the way Ferrari were all chummy with the FIA at Indy last year when every single other team (including the other Bridgestone runners) agreed not to race unless something was done to the track. Mosely flat out refused to let Minardi run with older wings at the first race in 2005 threatening that if they did they'd 'never go back to Australia for a race again' and yet here are Ferrari blatently running 'flexi wings' in the first 2 GPs and the FIA are all 'well come on lads.....it's not really right so please be so kind as to just change them a bit if you can in your own time'.

I personally don't like Ferrari. They always side with the FIA and they always get away with stuff. I'd also like Schumacher a bit more if he was actually enthusiastic......I mean come on! You beat Sennas pole record and all you can say it 'Ah...I'm not really bothered about records. They're just numbers. I'm here for the team and the teeeeefooowsi.'

Lex77

2nd May 2006, 13:54

The force applied to the wings in flex testing is 500N (roughly 50kg).

It's pretty simple though, as soon as Ferrari really gets accused of cheating, they'll just return the favor (and rightly so) and we'll have another "multiple-team-wing-upgrading-session", like the one we saw after the first (two?) race(s) of this season.:scratchch
It's indeed the pott-kettle-black thing going on here.:D

By changing the used force in testing, to one that's a bit more realistic, they could probably narrow down the opportunities to "cheat legally", at least in this particular area.

speedfreak227

2nd May 2006, 23:34

more on that topic (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns16730.html)

speedfreak227

The force applied to the wings in flex testing is 500N (roughly 50kg).

It's pretty simple though, as soon as Ferrari really gets accused of cheating, they'll just return the favor (and rightly so) and we'll have another "multiple-team-wing-upgrading-session", like the one we saw after the first (two?) race(s) of this season.:scratchch
It's indeed the pott-kettle-black thing going on here.:D

By changing the used force in testing, to one that's a bit more realistic, they could probably narrow down the opportunities to "cheat legally", at least in this particular area.

Hoellsen

3rd May 2006, 14:35

F1 has always been about which team can bend (pun intended) the rules the best way without getting caught by scrutineering.

That was the case with the Brabham car mentioned in your link, with the lead in the tank used by Tyrell (okay, that was a pretty dumb try ;)), the wonderbrake by McLaren in 1998 or most recently Renault's launch control which was linked to the jumpstart-control frequencies in 2003 (or was it 2002?), the too wide Michelin tires in 2003 and the double tank used by BAR last year.

Last year, Ferrari was not once accused of cheating. Why? Because they didn't perform. As soon as they start performing again it's the old "nasty Ferrari, they got the FIA in their boat and who can't see that must be blind" routine again. For a Ferrari fan, that is a good thing. It shows that they are a force to be reckoned with again.

ArosaMike

4th May 2006, 14:24

mrbogeyman

4th May 2006, 18:33

They got accused of it in the first few GPs though where they were doing rubbish! People just noticed the flexing from the onboard cams. You could see daylight appearing between the wing elements and the nose!

yeah, they have had it all season and it was easy to see.

when ITV showed the front wing cam, you could see the element coming away from the nose, thus the wing was flexing.

ayrton senna 87

4th May 2006, 19:01

i australia at one point you could clearly see the renaults front wing flexing, ALOT, but no-one from the commentry team picked up on it.. maybe i can find a vid.

wE1l

4th May 2006, 19:12

http://img2.imagepile.net/images/11581054.gif

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/8926/sinttulo16ua.gif

Watch them!

ayrton senna 87

4th May 2006, 19:27

thats the one man!!

zeeaq

4th May 2006, 19:42

http://img2.imagepile.net/images/11581054.gif

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/8926/sinttulo16ua.gif

Watch them!

good ones

Vykos69

4th May 2006, 20:42

http://img2.imagepile.net/images/11581054.gif

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/8926/sinttulo16ua.gif

Watch them!
Eh, why arent the wings red and white? :really: :smileypul

tristancliffe

4th May 2006, 21:05

Because every wing of every car flexes, not just Ferrari's.

TagForce

4th May 2006, 21:34

Because every wing of every car flexes, not just Ferrari's.

Yes, of course every wing of every car flexes (although that second animation doesn't show a flexing wing, but the suspension at work)... That's pretty much inherent to the design of the wing supports. Much like an aeroplane wing will flex... The point the other teams are trying to make is that the flexing of the Ferrari wing is done in such a way that the front moves down about 10mm, but the rear comes down 30mm (or so), in effect creating a different wingsetting at high speeds... Whereas the allowed flexing of the wing would be uniform (front and back go down, but equally far).

tristancliffe

4th May 2006, 21:51

I don't think the rules specify anything about that - they just say that for the given test load it must not deflect beyond xmm, and that aerodynamic devices muct be rigidly attached to the entire sprung part of the car. But 100% rigidly attached is impossible, so there has to be a line. As that line hasn't been defined then what all the teams are doing is within the regulations.

Some might argue it's outside the 'spirit of the regulations', but that's just what people say when they are either disadvantaged by it or don't know how to regulate it. As long as driver safety isn't compromised too much then I don't mind it. The FIA should increase the load to at least 1500N in the fore-aft plane at least, and restrict the movement of the wings. But ultimately I think an lift-generating aerodynamic profiled section (e.g. a wing) should be banned. Keep the 'wings' for the sponsers, but get rid of downforce. Then you can legisiate the wings to be much more rigid as they aren't adjustable, improve the racing, reduce costs a bit (though drag efficiency will still become important), yet keep the sponsers happy.

P.S. I wrote that as I thought of it, so it might not be clear, and it might not be a fully working solution, but I'm not paid to fix F1 :p

TagForce

4th May 2006, 23:39

Side note... I just noticed everyone is talking about the front wing... The discussion with the ferrari wing is in fact about the rear wing, and for that the following rule applies (and is alledgedly broken by Ferrari):

3.17.3 Bodywork may deflect by no more than one degree horizontally when a load of 1000N is applied
simultaneously to its extremities in a rearward direction 780mm above the reference plane and 20mm
forward of the rear wheel centre line.

The other rules on the flexibility of the bodywork are:

3.17 Bodywork flexibility :

3.17.1 Bodywork may deflect no more than 5mm vertically when a 500N load is applied vertically to it 700mm
forward of the front wheel centre line and 625mm from the car centre line. The load will be applied in a
downward direction using a 50mm diameter ram and an adapter 300mm long and 150mm wide. Teams
must supply the latter when such a test is deemed necessary.

3.17.2 Bodywork may deflect no more than 10mm vertically when a 500N load is applied vertically to it 450mm
forward of the rear wheel centre line and 650mm from the car centre line. The load will be applied in a
downward direction using a 50mm diameter ram and an adapter of the same size, Teams must supply the
latter when such a test is deemed necessary.

3.17.4 Bodywork may deflect no more than 5mm vertically when a 500N load is applied vertically to it at a point
which lies on the car centre line and 380mm rearward of the front wheel centre line. The load will be
applied in an upward direction using a 50mm diameter ram, teams will be required to supply a suitable
adapter when such a test is deemed necessary.

3.17.5 The uppermost aerofoil element lying behind the rear wheel centre line may deflect no more than 5mm
horizontally when a 500N load is applied horizontally. The load will be applied 800mm above the reference
plane at three separate points which lie on the car centre line and 250mm either side of it. The loads will be
applied in an rearward direction using a suitable 25mm wide adapter which must be supplied by the
relevant team.

3.17.6 The forward-most aerofoil element lying behind the rear wheel centre line and which lies more than 600mm
above the reference plane may deflect no more than 2mm vertically when a 200N load is applied vertically.
The load will be applied in line with the trailing edge of the element at any point across its width. The loads
will be applied using a suitable adapter, supplied by the relevant team, which :
- may be no more than 50mm wide ;
- which extends no more than 10mm forward of the trailing edge ;
- incorporates an 8mm female thread in the underside.

Rappa Z

5th May 2006, 00:06

so Ferrari's wings do it a little more.

edit: tagforce, didn't see your post till right now.Very good info.

I still think nothing will happen. Unless officals notice nothing will happen(probably). It's not like they're looking at us type right now.

Vykos69

5th May 2006, 08:39

well, tagforce, the point is: There is simply MORE force than 500N applied at higher speed. So they are in the rules, if it bends more than the given limits at higher speeds, cause there are probably something like 1kN or even more applied, due to the air. Maybe they found a technique to use that way better, than the other teams. So they are in the rules, but smarter/more technically advanced. Which actually always was and still is one big part of F1: It's NOT only about the drivers, it's also about the technical advantages and development.

TagForce

5th May 2006, 09:27

Vykos69

5th May 2006, 11:14

It's 1000N for the rear wing (3.17.3)...
I never said they were in fact doing anything illegal, but I was merely saying what the other teams are complaining about. The other teams are simply saying that for each 1000N the rearwing cannot deflect more than 1 degree, and Ferrari's wing is... So for 2000N the deflection may be 2 degrees, 3000N 3 degrees etc... That's what the teams say are the rules (or should be the rules), and they think Ferrari's wing deflects more than 1 degree/1000N when there's over 1000N applied.
Yeah, well. YOu see what is written in the rules. It just says for 1000N there is 1° allowed. It says nothing, what can happen above that limit. Again Ferrari seems smarter and understands the rules better, than a lot of the other teams. It sounds poor, childish and envious, if you complain about something like this, with several hundreds of millions in the own budget. They just missed the next step and now they whine about it. It's like german car manufacturers whining about DIESEL-particle filters or Hybrid-engines, just because they missed the next technology step...

SamH

5th May 2006, 16:06

Yeah, well. YOu see what is written in the rules. It just says for 1000N there is 1° allowed. It says nothing, what can happen above that limit. Again Ferrari seems smarter and understands the rules better, than a lot of the other teams. It sounds poor, childish and envious, if you complain about something like this, with several hundreds of millions in the own budget. They just missed the next step and now they whine about it. It's like german car manufacturers whining about DIESEL-particle filters or Hybrid-engines, just because they missed the next technology step...
I'm still playing catchup here, so I don't properly get it, but looking at the broader picture it is looking more like the teams are in essence calling 2 words.. "unfair" and "advantage".

To me, the advantage is the effect that applying the rules to their IMPLIED limit has gained Ferarri. The word "unfair", if it's even been used (but any other synonym will do), is subjective.. and it is of course inevitable when one or many teams missed an opportunity that another spotted. If the development had been realised (and spotted by other teams) out of season, rather than bang smack IN the season, the whole field would have turned up at the first race with a Ferarri-alike wing.

You can bet that, while the teams are complaining to the FiA, their R&D are busily working to emulate the development made by Ferarri.

speedfreak227

11th May 2006, 13:14

let me stoke the fire (http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=35858) one more time :thumb:

speedfreak227

wE1l

11th May 2006, 16:08

"Renault have had flexy wings from the start of the season. Many teams had - BMW was one for example. In fact, as Geoff Willis said, there are so many examples of flexy wings and behind-the-scenes activity, that it is irresponsible and unreasonable to single out Ferrari, for what is a perfectly legal car that passed all FIA tests - just like ALL the other cars on the grid. But I find this constant whinging about Ferrari, now that they are back on form, particularly amusing. Please do continue... "

TagForce

11th May 2006, 17:14

let me stoke the fire (http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=35858) one more time :thumb:

speedfreak227

What did you expect they would do? Sit back, relax, and let Ferrari keep their "unfair advantage"?

One thing Ferrari seems really good at is reading the rules very carefully, and keeping themselves really close to the letter of the law. I have to admit that I kind of admire them for it. Then again, they seem to have a thing for taking it just that small step too far every now and then and making their tactics a bit over obvious, and then it bites them in the rear end.

Becky Rose

11th May 2006, 18:06

the thing that pisses me of is the way that Ferrari so often seem to get away with it.
Do you remember when F1 was floated? Guess who bought it. Ferrari have a significant stake in Formula 1 and as a result are able to apply pressure to the FIA in ways the other teams are not able too. The irony is they get paid back their investment both as a shareholder AND by using that power to improve their results and tacking a larger share of the winnings.

I dont really hate Ferrari like a lot of other people do though, I admire anyone with a passion for motorsport and you just can't help but have a little soft spot for a company who's workshops are littered with so much historic memorabilia that you can't walk around without tripping over a vehicle or a seat or some other exotic piece that anywhere else would be a prized collection piece.

I'm not so keen on Schumacher though, i've still not forgiven what he did to Jordan let alone what he did to Damon Hill... Maybe i'm stuck in the wrong decade?

mr grady

11th May 2006, 19:30

Im with you becky.

im in awe of schumi's driving skills, but, and it is a big but, i cant handle his win at all cost approach to racing.

1. he took out hill to win the 94 title.

2. he tried to take out JV in his attempt at the 97 title

3. he took out mika when they drove in F3 or 3000, in the same situation as above, being 1 point ahead, so thinks he can afford to retire.......as long as his rival does too.

4. he always has his teammate working for him, so thats one less car to race against for him, and its as equal a car as he will find in the field.

personally i feel ferrari get away with too much.
and i put my money where my mouth is because i was a huge BAR fan til they were caught cheating at imaola in 2005. i sold all my BAR clothing on ebay!

Cargo

11th May 2006, 20:19

The one thing I remember seeing on TV (not posted here yet) was the front element of the 248 was seperating from the nose at very high speed. They showed this live during the race and the commentors commented :) on it.
The next race, this seperation was no longer occurring.

There is no doubt that much hanky panky is being played out with aero and wings. But that is only b/c imho the overall package for mech grip so hopelessly weak.
They should:
ban elements between the F/R wings
ban multi-element wings
return to slicks

But I'm just a guy who watches the race and nothing else so that's my .0001 US$

And you guys ROCK with all the links in this thread /bow /salute

StewartFisher

11th May 2006, 20:22

As the article to which speedfreak227 linked points out, it would seem that Ferrari are going a little bit beyond the rules with their rear wing. The issue is not that the whole wing assembly is flexing in order to reduce the angle of attack. The top plane of the Ferrari wing is flexing downwards towards the bottom element in order to seal off the gap between the elements at speed. As far as I'm aware the FIA test only measures the flexure of the whole wing assembly, not the individual elements.
Ferrari are clearly using moveable aerodynamic devices to gain an advantage, which is against the rules. Now that Ferrari have been allowed to get away with it, all the others will have to join them.
It's not about Ferrari thinking harder than the other teams, forcing the others to play catch up, it's about Ferrari cheating and getting away with it. Again.

zeeaq

11th May 2006, 20:52

I agree with Mr Grady and Becky Rose, thats the way its been in F-1, most of the drivers have this really childish "win at all costs" mentality.How can one forget the "Prost-Senna" battle during the 1989 and 1990 seasons.It was surprising that Senna who was believed to be an extremely humane and compassionate person could go on to display such feelings on cynicism on the track !!!!

wE1l

11th May 2006, 21:34

Ferrari are clearly using moveable aerodynamic devices to gain an advantage, which is against the rules. Now that Ferrari have been allowed to get away with it, all the others will have to join them.
It's not about Ferrari thinking harder than the other teams, forcing the others to play catch up, it's about Ferrari cheating and getting away with it. Again.

By that do you mean ONLY Ferrari's rear wing flex? Thus breaking the rules?

StewartFisher

11th May 2006, 21:44

By that do you mean ONLY Ferrari's rear wing flex? Thus breaking the rules?As has already been mentioned before, ALL structures flex under load. Thus it is inevitable that wings on all F1 cars will flex. A few years ago some teams started making their rear wings flexible which is why the FIA introduced the current 'flex test'.
What Ferrari seem to be doing this time is to design the wing in such a way to cause the top plane of the wing to deflect in an advantageous way. That is clearly not in agreement with the regulations.

wE1l

11th May 2006, 21:55

As has already been mentioned before, ALL structures flex under load. Thus it is inevitable that wings on all F1 cars will flex. A few years ago some teams started making their rear wings flexible which is why the FIA introduced the current 'flex test'.
What Ferrari seem to be doing this time is to design the wing in such a way to cause the top plane of the wing to deflect in an advantageous way. That is clearly not in agreement with the regulations.

I read thoroughly every word of your posts, just can't quite get your logic behind them. So do you think the top planes on other cars don't bend downwards as those on Ferrari do? If they bend too, aren't they gaining an advantage throught it as well? And then all cars are illegal by your standard.

StewartFisher

11th May 2006, 22:14

I read thoroughly every word of your posts, just can't quite get your logic behind them. So do you think the top planes on other cars don't bend downwards as those on Ferrari do? If they bend too, aren't they gaining an advantage throught it as well? And then all cars are illegal by your standard.The article on ITV-F1 quoted an 'insider' saying that since Ferrari are getting away with using flexible wings, other teams are going to redesign their wings to flex in a similar way. The problem I have is the rules say that no moveable aerodynamic parts are allowed and now we have engineers designing aerodynamic parts to flex in order to gain an advantage. They're clearly breaking the rules, but they're only doing it because Ferrari have been doing it and aren't being punished for it.

wE1l

11th May 2006, 22:37

The article on ITV-F1 quoted an 'insider' saying that since Ferrari are getting away with using flexible wings, other teams are going to redesign their wings to flex in a similar way. The problem I have is the rules say that no moveable aerodynamic parts are allowed and now we have engineers designing aerodynamic parts to flex in order to gain an advantage. They're clearly breaking the rules, but they're only doing it because Ferrari have been doing it and aren't being punished for it.

Thing is, even before they found out about Ferrari's flexible wings, their wings did flex too. You could refer to pictures in my previous posts for visual evidence. IMHO, it's just the usual politics around F1, when some teams perform badly they always want to find something to move the focus away to avoid critics. I can't believe Honda lodged a formal concern to the FIA about Ferrari's wing just based on the fact that they are a bit faster on the backstraight.

Ferrari's wing may be a bit more flexible than others', but calling that cheating is a far too subjective view.

StewartFisher

11th May 2006, 22:49

Thing is, even before they found out about Ferrari's flexible wings, their wings did flex too. You could refer to pictures in my previous posts for visual evidence.I've never denied that wings flex...a laminated sheet of carbon fibre a few mm thick is obviously going to flex under load.
Ferrari's wing may be a bit more flexible than others', but calling that cheating is a far too subjective view.But why is it more flexible? The rules say they must be rigid, therefore the teams should never be using their flexibility to gain an advantage.

wE1l

11th May 2006, 23:20

But why is it more flexible? The rules say they must be rigid, therefore the teams should never be using their flexibility to gain an advantage.

1. The rules say so, but none of the wings are strictly rigid. The FIA use tests to make sure the wings are legal. Since all teams pass the tests, then you couldn't call a particular team a cheater.

2. Ferrari has no idea how flexible other teams' wings are, they focus on their own car design given that it fits the rule, and they succeed in doing so.

3. You couldn't blame Ferrari for gaining an advantage (if any) with their wings, since they don't know whether other teams' wings are more flexible than theirs or not. FIA should improve the rule by bringing in more specific tests regarding the flexibility of wings. If anyone's to blame, it's the FIA.

Hoellsen

12th May 2006, 10:21

Guess who bought it. Ferrari have a significant stake in Formula 1 and as a result are able to apply pressure to the FIA in ways the other teams are not able too.

Rofl. Seldom I have read funnier bullshit. F1 is a racing series organized and run by the FIA. The FIA is a club, a non-commercial organization that cannot be sold or bought. Noone owns a stake in the FIA because there is no stakes to own. So the FIA can neither be floated nor sold nor bought.

The part that can be owned is the Formula One Administration Ltd. (FOA) and the Formula One Management Ltd. (FOM). They are owned in part by Ecclestone's wife and different banks and they are controlled by Bernie. Again, no Ferrari in this part.

Ferrari used to (or still does, not sure) own a stake in the GPWC, the breakaway series that the manufacturers (Mercedes, BMW, Honda, Toyota, Renault and earlier Ferrari) used to plan. That is not associated with F1 or the FIA in any other way that the members of the GPWC participate in the F1.

If you want to make up conspiracy theories, try to get your facts straight. Otherwise the potential for self-ridiculing is quite high.

JJ72

12th May 2006, 11:48

however don't forget the state of FIA is pretty close to a one man dictatorship - by Bernie.

And I do think Ferrari personals has quite a close relationship with Bernie thus FIA, compare to other competitors.

wE1l

12th May 2006, 18:44

:scratchch however don't forget the state of FIA is pretty close to a one man dictatorship - by Bernie.

And I do think Ferrari personals has quite a close relationship with Bernie thus FIA, compare to other competitors.

Links? Or is it just your gut feeling?

Due to their inability to build championship winning cars, Ferrari's rivals make up this GPMA thing, threaten to leave F1 to start their own series. However, just after European GP, words came out that Renualt want a break from GPMA. Link---http://www.gp2006.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme= ferrari&team_id=12&month=5&seasonid=14&nextM ode=GpNewsForm&news_id=19244 (http://www.gp2006.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme= ferrari&team_id=12&month=5&seasonid=14&nextM ode=GpNewsForm&news_id=19244)

Quote:"Renault vice-president Alain Dassas spoke with the other GPMA teams (BMW, Honda, Mercedes, Toyota) at the Nurburgring and revealed that the French based squad wants to sign the new Concorde Agreement and therefore leave their club. However, Dassas was reminded that his predecessor, Patrick Faure, has signed a contract that does not allow any one of manufacturers to take any individual action before September."

Ferrari is a name that no one could easily write off, even in a year like 2005, Ferrari made a few surprises. The FIA even changed its rules to slow Ferrari. It's interesting to see how things change, now Renualt get what they want in F1, surely they don't care about the GPMA any more. All these are about politics in F1, which although I am not particularly interested in, I know it happens all the time. But time and time again I find it quite amazing how people claim FIA is favoring Ferrari, or Ferrari is "closer" to the FIA than other teams. Well, I suppose that's what success brings you.

I know opinions vary, but I'd appreciate it if you could provide some proofs. Sometimes gut feeling can be misleading.

Hoellsen

12th May 2006, 18:51

Due to their inability to build championship winning cars, Ferrari's rivals make up this GPMA thing

Originally, Ferrari was part of the GPMA.

Other than that: more rule changes in the 21st century have been made against Ferrari than in favor: new points scheme, new qualifying system in 2003, no tire change in 2005. Every time these changes came after a dominant Ferrari season and every time Ferrari struggled to adjust. And these changes were done by the FIA. ;)

wE1l

12th May 2006, 19:16

Originally, Ferrari was part of the GPMA.

Other than that: more rule changes in the 21st century have been made against Ferrari than in favor: new points scheme, new qualifying system in 2003, no tire change in 2005. Every time these changes came after a dominant Ferrari season and every time Ferrari struggled to adjust. And these changes were done by the FIA. ;)

Thanks for pointing out the inaccuracy.:D Just got baffled by the antis. But by using the word antis, maybe I am hugely biased as well.:razz: