HARDCORE MODE ... please, give us ... [Archive]

mrodgers

22nd April 2006, 14:00

I completely disagree with this hardcore mode everyone wants. There is no advantage to running LFS anyway you want with the exception of if there were driver aids. If someone wants to use top-down view, so be it. Sure he could see what is in the general vicinity around him, but he can't "feel" the car like we can in cockpit view with the visual cues of the environment moving around outside the windshield and the way the car / driver's head moves around from g-forces and such. If you want to get hardcore, then I say FOV should be forced at 60% like I use, because that gives you an accurate representation of you're actual view with correct perspective. But most have disagreed in the past because they can't see their mirrors or beside them as well. Well, I can't see my mirrors or beside me very well with my periferal vision when looking straight out the windshield and the perspective is all wrong, so 90% FOV is unrealistic and shouldnt' be allowed, IMO. Now that would get most everyone who wants hardcore mode in an uproar if they were forced to use 60 FOV.

It's all opinions on what is better and what is realistic.

silent_wind

22nd April 2006, 14:10

it really would be good to have a "harcore" mode.. i thought they were gonna add it on this patch though..

ajp71

22nd April 2006, 15:02

zeugnimod

22nd April 2006, 15:22

I don't think this would suit LFS, as some people can be not just fast but also safe with the mouse. Possibly a keyboard ban would be good though.

But some people can be not just fast but also safe with keyboard, too. :scratchch

Vaillant

22nd April 2006, 18:30

I dont want Crew change LFS in an "Hardcore_Mode_Sim" :pillepall
I'd like LFS Crew give us the possibility (like NR2003 for example) to host a game or launch an HotLap game, in Hardcore Mode .... if we want to.
Wanna play in Hardcore mode? OK ... you can!
Wanna play the game you prefere (external view, wheels view, with mouse, with Keyboard ...etc etc...)? Ok ... you can!
Nothing more ....
Of course "optymum" could be to get a Rank with specified if your game or lap been played in HC-MODE ( like Find the limit, for example).
Now we can see if an Hot Lap had been played with wheel or mouse or Keyboard.
Is it so bad we can see if a game have been played in Hardcore Mode or in other way?
A choice not an obligation!! :nod:

dylan

22nd April 2006, 19:40

what does it matter is the physics, no matter where you feel comfortable to drive, to my eyes. The car will react exactly in the same mode, so if anyone want to drive an an unrealistic position it's up to them, they will "loose" a bit of their sim experience, but for sure doesn't damage the others sim experience, wich is what matter to my eyes

Vaillant

23rd April 2006, 00:03

..... The car will react exactly in the same mode, so if anyone want to drive an an unrealistic position it's up to them, they will "loose" a bit of their sim experience, but for sure doesn't damage the others sim experience, wich is what matter to my eyes
:scratchch Yep! Infact, if I drive my car with closed eyes or with opened eyes, my car will react in the same mode but ....... :smileypul

Its a paradox, but explains what I mean: there are for sure "visuals" improving performances (... does ne1 remember F10 in GPL?) and there are effective racing aids: driving with automatic clutch is "a little" :nod: more effective then driving with "realistic" manual clutch.
I'd like only a "way" so that anybody knows if you play with/without aids and which "visual" you play with :thumb:
I like transparence ... :nod: ... and you?

tanktaylor2000

23rd April 2006, 14:39

How do i get that view? i have 2 widescreen TFTs and that would be great on them

spyshagg

23rd April 2006, 15:44

move y x z bars in custom view

Vaillant

23rd April 2006, 23:14

move y x z bars in custom view ... and you'll find "The Easy Way" :nod:

fl3nd3r

24th April 2006, 00:26

spyshagg

24th April 2006, 00:43

oh its not easy... but you wont feel claustrofobic trying to guess where the hood starts. In my real car i dont have to guess anything, i see it all from the inside. LFS (naturaly being on a 4:3 screen) doesn't provide me with that feeling, so, i compensate :)

for me, wheel view is more like "tradition" of car video games... but we, simulator guys, we have a wheel on your desk in front of us, right? so the cockpit view should be more upfront and just forget about showing the wheel.

like this:
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3340/lfsfrontview5ky.jpg

Vaillant

24th April 2006, 03:01

... In my real car i dont have to guess anything, i see it all from the inside ...
Maybe a " caterpillar " driver can see all from the inside :) but in a car ( expecially in a car like, for example, a GTR ) you don't see " all " in front of you.
Look at this ... with zoom
http://www.fotosearch.it/DGV031/1419010/

spyshagg

24th April 2006, 12:18

ok not all, but way more than the LFS cockpit (you cant see a thing past the cockpit)
i'm kind of a tall guy, so i dont know what shorter guys see in their real cars... i see most of the front hood, thats why i choose the view i posted in my previous post :)

sweetreid

24th April 2006, 19:52

I think everyone should be able to set up the view any way they want. We can duke it out with laptimes, not who has the most 'hardcore' settings.

molocco

24th April 2006, 20:04

i also use a custom view like the "easy" view in the first post, but this is the most realistic viewing angle i could produce. i have the wheel in front of me and the monitor about 60 cm from my nose. so i don´t need an extra wheel on the screen (yes i know you can turn driver/wheel off) and the viewing angles in cockpit view are not as good as in custom view. i tried cocpit view and messed with the the fov till it fits my wishes, but then i´m forced to use the virtual mirror, as i could see neither of the real car mirrors.
maybe that changes with the upcoming triplehead2go fom matrox, as this will finaly enable me to play lfs on three monitors.
forcing people to one view is not a good way in my opinion - they did this alot in nfs porsche, so sometimes i was forced to play in birds view. :really:

if you like hardcore racing, just make up your private server and invite only people who are willing to follow your rules... that easy :thumb:

peace mo

edit: didn´t see the "i like transparence", first. yes, that is something i can agree with - to know if there are driving aids used is ok. but in the end its up to the driver: some are fast with tc on and some are even faster if tc is off. would you consider forcing tc off , also?

Vaillant

24th April 2006, 23:26

... would you consider forcing tc off , also?
If a car uses in real life ABS and TC, in HCM (hardcore mode) YOU HAVE TO use ABS and TC .... simple.

If you know FTL http://www.findthelimit.com you can understand what I'd like to be LFS RANK

oppolo

25th April 2006, 22:41

Please give us the opportunity to choose an hardcore mode when we host a game, so to have locked in-car view and no driving aids :thumb:

i'm quite agree

Sawyer

25th April 2006, 22:53

The most realistic view is that you just see the track nothing more. We should maybe force that :nod:

I have my wheel infront of me. My hands also. So the cockpit view is the most unrealistic to me at present :razz:

The first picture is actually a pretty realistic view. Ok granted the view should be moved abit down and to left but yeah thats what I mostly need to have on my screen if the other part are before my monitor.

Vaillant

25th April 2006, 23:03

The most realistic view is that you just see the track nothing more. We should maybe force that :nod: ...
:thumb: Good Idea !!! .... :scratchch .... maybe when LFS will be a Kart Simulator :D

oppolo

25th April 2006, 23:28

The most realistic view is that you just see the track nothing more. We should maybe force that :nod:

maybe you are speaking abt this
http://www.corriere.it/Media/Foto/2003/01_Gennaio/24/SKELETON.jpg
:D

Sawyer

26th April 2006, 11:39

Actually I was talking more about a view like that.
http://freeweb.siol.net/denisbr5/LFSview.jpg

Now can you honestly say this is not the most realistic view :D

btw. where is the hide hands and wheel button hidden? I cant seems to find it anymore.

oppolo

26th April 2006, 14:33

Actually I was talking more about a view like that.
http://freeweb.siol.net/denisbr5/LFSview.jpg

Now can you honestly say this is not the most realistic view :D

it is real for an old man who drives with his eyes near to the steering wheel :)

btw. where is the hide hands and wheel button hidden? I cant seems to find it anymore.
wait the next turn and you'll see one of them :D

Sawyer

26th April 2006, 15:41

lol you arsh :thumb:

Gargantula

26th April 2006, 17:56

Human eyes can only see a small area of about half inch, by half inch area, so when we see it in our computer screen the whole view is smooshed into out small monitors, unless you have a nice 40", but even then that is flat.

Our eyes have peripheral vision that monitors can't simulate. The triple monitor approach is getting closer, but I can't stand the gaps between the monitors, when watching movies. Maybe with cars the gaps can represent the pillars, so that's more tolerable.

I can't wait till we can wear a lightweight VR head gear that turns as we turn our heads to see the mirrors and the cars beside us, then this FOV view discussion can be resolved. :-)

Woz

27th April 2006, 00:34

Doorman

27th April 2006, 08:06

oppolo

27th April 2006, 10:59

NO mid race joins.
NO jump to pits button.
NO race restart button
End race ONLY selectable by people in current race.
NEW retire from race button.

Just to make sure people take more care and worry about their actions in T1

i agree :)

Cue-Ball

27th April 2006, 17:38

I dont care about cockpit view for Hardcore Mode. I just want it that the server is configured so that

NO mid race joins.
NO jump to pits button.
NO race restart button
End race ONLY selectable by people in current race.
NEW retire from race button.

Just to make sure people take more care and worry about their actions in T1Agreed. And I'd like to add:

NO F9 view
NO F10 view

I wouldn't mind cockpit view being enforced, but I would hope that adjustments to field of view would not be restricted since that is very dependant upon personal preference, monitor size, monitor aspect ratio, etc.

tailing

28th April 2006, 10:01

It's amazing how often the old 'forced cockpit view' debate comes up. I run a GTL server with forced cockpit view and it's invariably full. I can recall maybe half a dozen times when someone has joined, said 'Oh no, cockpit view!', and left. This also applies to netKar Pro where you have no choice, cockpit or nothing! The same goes for driving aids, on Dead Men Racing (GTL) it's set to 'Professional' that is with NO aids at all. Only auto clutch allowed. Never hear a gripe though. :shrug:

Possibly most of those who would use wheels view don't play those games for that very reason. LFS caters to all types and is better for it imo.

In the almost three years I've been playing LFS I'm yet to hear a real solid reason for such things as a hardcore mode and that covers many long discussions/arguments. To be honest I think it's more about certain people being able to feel hardcore (I'm generalising and not pointing at anyone in particular here).
FCV is a perfect case in point, it is solely a matter of opinion as to whether cv is more realistic than something like wheels view but the "hardcore" have made up their mind and be damned with anyone else.

Anyway, I think we already have a hardcore mode in LFS and it's called league racing ;)

Pablo.CZ

28th April 2006, 10:52

NO F9 view
NO F10 view

Except pit stops

Cue-Ball

28th April 2006, 16:21

Except pit stopsThat brings up an interesting question.

If i'm racing along and come into the pits for fuel, then I hit F9 to see my tire wear and realize they're worn more than I thought, or are hotter than I thought, can I still change tires during that pit stop or would I have to tell the game to change tires, then pit AGAIN to actually have it done? Also, since there's no way to tell the game NOT to fix damage, having the F10 key work wouldn't matter. As soon as you pit the car would get fixed.

Pablo.CZ

29th April 2006, 09:16

If i'm racing along and come into the pits for fuel, then I hit F9 to see my tire wear and realize they're worn more than I thought, or are hotter than I thought, can I still change tires during that pit stop or would I have to tell the game to change tires, then pit AGAIN to actually have it done?
My suggestion: first line in F12 (Pit instructions) will be "Start/Wait", default is always Start. If you arrive to pit stop and this option is "Start", everything will be the same as it is now. If "Wait", you have time to check F9 and F10, dedide what to repair and then change Wait to Start command for pit crew. This take longer time, but this is penalty for you didnt know what you want and lost time haggling with pit crew.
Also, since there's no way to tell the game NOT to fix damage, having the F10 key work wouldn't matter. As soon as you pit the car would get fixed.
Today no, but I hope options for fix car will be added, we should be prepared for this.

RacingSimFan

30th April 2006, 01:42

jtw62074

30th April 2006, 02:07

Woz

30th April 2006, 02:33

The LFS community can already be fragmented into groups such as Road vs. Race, Open-Wheel vs. Tin-top, Drift vs. Grip, etc. Do you really want to take each of those small groups and fragment them further by alienating people who use more arcadish views or mice/kb's but nonetheless are fast and safe and legitimate members of the community same as you?

Didn't think so...

Depends on why people want hardcore more. Tire wear and car damage add more risk to contact but no fear of crashes as you have IRL.

My take is that the harder you make it to restart a race etc the more risk there is when you make contact that your race is over and you have to spectate until the next race. This will change the way people drive T1 or overtake in general.

If you own RBR you will understand what I mean by mental cost to crashes. When in a rally season in RBR there is no restart stage option. You crash and kill the car and its no points for that country so move on to the next country. Only way to restart a stage is to start the whole season again from the very begining. So once you have completed a number of stages the time invested to get that far makes the mental cost of a crash become a big factor in how you drive.

RacingSimFan

30th April 2006, 03:17

^^ I was talking about the original ideas of forcing cockpit view and banning driver aids.

I agree that the people who drive into T1 with their heads up their asses and then vote a restart need to be put in their place but that is already possible with an InSim feature that implements a delay before Restart voting is allowed.

But forcing people to drive in a way they're not comfortable with as the original poster suggests is a bad idea that will only drive people away from certain servers.

Gunn

30th April 2006, 08:38

But forcing people to drive in a way they're not comfortable with as the original poster suggests is a bad idea that will only drive people away from certain servers.I think it will attract people to certain servers.

RacingSimFan

30th April 2006, 15:03

I think it will attract people to certain servers.

But there's no performance advantage to driving in one of the other views and all this does in the end is fragments the community; a community that already reeks of snobbish elitism at times.

"If u dont drive cockpit view then ur a stupid noob who should learn or go play NFS:U!!!"

Seriously, is it beneath some here to just live and let live, or more appropriately, 'race and let race'?

You worry about your car; I'll worry about mine.

Please oh please don't force your ideals on other people.:(

Vaillant

1st May 2006, 00:35

But there's no performance advantage to driving in one of the other views .....
What? :scratchch ... are you sure?

The more "way" you can see the more advantage you have.
Driving in cockpit view you can see less "way" in front of you then all the other views

MyBoss

1st May 2006, 01:15

I dont understand this "visual" in a race-sim ( see ... Too Easy.gif )
It's so .... unrealistic!!!
Please give us the opportunity to choose an hardcore mode when we host a game, so to have locked in-car view and no driving aids :thumb:

It will be a great think too, if rank "understands" if your lap have been played in hardcore mode

ooh, dang I'm glad you don't have any influence on the Developers.

In the real world we have 180grades of view, but in LFS we only have a little over 100, but even then it wouldn't bee the same, I have paid for the game, and I want to play it MY way.

MyBoss

1st May 2006, 01:16

I think it will attract people to certain servers.

Yep, it will attract the "banned" people to the servers allowing them to race.

Anyway, this have been discussed several times allready, its NOT going to happen.

Gunn

1st May 2006, 01:19

Yep, it will attract the "banned" people to the servers allowing them to race.

Anyway, this have been discussed several times allready, its NOT going to happen.What "banned" people?

tristancliffe

1st May 2006, 01:29

Actually I think Scawen has said, perhaps unofficially, that a more hardcore mode will one day be strongly considered. But it'll be optional, so don't fret that pick up and play races won't happen. It would, I suppose, be mainly used for league racing, where artifical aids (such as tyre temp overlays and mini-maps) detract from the realism. Of course certain things, like a better flag system and penalties for overtaking under yellows (which means people would be more likely to lift/brake), and even body damage affecting performance need to be done first so that people also DRIVE in a realistic fashion, which will only come with development.

Woz

1st May 2006, 03:27

Yep, it will attract the "banned" people to the servers allowing them to race.

Anyway, this have been discussed several times allready, its NOT going to happen.

If people were the sort of idiot where they are banned from all other servers so only hardcore are left they will not last long as the hardcore will give less warnings than normal servers as they want to do serious racing

tailing

1st May 2006, 08:03

I don't think this sort of stuff will make as much difference as you might think Woz. Organised racing is really the answer to having more realistic racing and races, whether that's leagues or a private server filled with reliable people.

btw I thought we might have seen you racing in the AAL now that your on this side of the pond.

mrodgers

1st May 2006, 12:00

What? :scratchch ... are you sure?

The more "way" you can see the more advantage you have.
Driving in cockpit view you can see less "way" in front of you then all the other views
True you can see more driving from top view, but then in cockpit, you have the advantage of "feeling" the car more from the g-force simulated movement. Like I said before though, it's all a matter of opinion what is easier and what is more realistic. Such as my next comment...

60 deg FOV does not represent a true view either unless your face is about 1 foot from the monitor, or you've got a REALLY big screen. :D
My monitor is directly behind my wheel mounted to the desk. I try to represent the monitor as the windshield, the space between the monitor and the wheel as the dash and of course, my wheel as the actual wheel. Unfortunately, I have to see the gauges and don't have any mounted on the desk, so I have to view them on the screen.

Focus straight out your windshield of the real car and take note on what you can truely see in your peripheral vision. You can not see the mirrors in the sense that you can focus on them without moving your head. The only thing I can truely focus on with my peripheral vision while looking straight out is a bit of the a-pillar, top of the dash, and over to the rearview mirror. The scene out in front of me IRL isn't "stretched" out in front as it is with the perspective you get at 90 degree FOV in LFS. With 60 degree view and the look left/right set at whatever not instant is, is the realistic view. (Of course, this is my opinion, like I said, everyone's is different).

With that all said, this is why I don't feel there needs to be a hardcore option. It is all opinions and everyone's is different. You think 90 degrees with the environment stretched out to the wrong perspective is realistic and I think 60 degrees or even smaller is realistic. And top down view only gives an advantage of seeing other's around you if the other guy doesn't use his left/right view correctly or at all. Top down view gives a handicap when talking about "feeling" what the car is doing because the g-force movement of cockpit view adds to the feeling you get with the forcefeedback system. There are plus and minuses of all.

I don't care what view you use or what controller you use, we are all in this for the good times racing with the great folks of this community. I don't think some need to be alienated from others because of the way they like their racing represented.

Gunn

1st May 2006, 12:50

I don't care what view you use or what controller you use, we are all in this for the good times racing with the great folks of this community. I don't think some need to be alienated from others because of the way they like their racing represented.So are you saying that if a server is running options that you don't like then somehow the server admin is alienating you?

I find it odd that people can act like they would be deprived of some cardinal right if a server ran options that they didn't like, effectively stopping them from enjoying the type of racing that those who like the options might enjoy in that server.
If a group of hardcore race sim enthusiasts wish to compete under strict and even conditions it is logical that a non-hardcore racer wouldn't enjoy the action anyway and therefore isn't being deprived of anything that he desires. You wouldn't be missing out on a thing if hardcore servers were in the list.

LFS is a mecca for hardcore sim racers and I believe there is certainly enough support for hardcore options. There is certainly plenty of public servers out there where people can have fun and drive together, but I know I'm not alone in saying that it would be great to see some servers out there that are strictly no nonsense hardcore racing.
A variety of hardcore options that could include fuel load limiting, control tyre choice, no telepitting or reset, no text chat and other realistic race controls would enhance and add depth to online racing.
Not everyone enjoys the public server circus, I certainly don't unless I just feel like screwing around. I can't take public server racing seriously at all.
Some hardcore options would not go astray for serious racers.

duke_toaster

1st May 2006, 13:08

But there's no performance advantage to driving in one of the other views and all this does in the end is fragments the community; a community that already reeks of snobbish elitism at times.

"If u dont drive cockpit view then ur a stupid noob who should learn or go play NFS:U!!!"

Seriously, is it beneath some here to just live and let live, or more appropriately, 'race and let race'?

You worry about your car; I'll worry about mine.

Please oh please don't force your ideals on other people.:(

I agree. I use wheels mode.

The only views that should be banned are trackside, chase and top down (forgotten what the keys are :doh:)

Aidswise, surely a system where drivers who use aids should have a small weight penalty or something like that would work.

SKurjz

1st May 2006, 13:15

I'd love to see cockpit only and all aids disabled (except autoclutch)

There are hundreds of servers.... How many of them are actually running something you don't really like?

MyBoss

1st May 2006, 15:13

What "banned" people?

I wrote "banned" instead of banned for a reason. If I for some reason can't join a server because I am using different view I would feel like I am banned from that server.

Vaillant

1st May 2006, 17:51

In my first post I said

... opportunity to choose an hardcore mode when we host a game...
Never said mandatory .... to choose that server!!!!!

Actually I think Scawen has said, perhaps unofficially, that a more hardcore mode will one day be strongly considered. But it'll be optional ...
What I dream .......

ooh, dang I'm glad you don't have any influence on the Developers ...
:nod: .. they are all right without my influence :thumb:

mrodgers

2nd May 2006, 03:46

LFS is a mecca for hardcore sim racers and I believe there is certainly enough support for hardcore options. There is certainly plenty of public servers out there where people can have fun and drive together, but I know I'm not alone in saying that it would be great to see some servers out there that are strictly no nonsense hardcore racing.
A variety of hardcore options that could include fuel load limiting, control tyre choice, no telepitting or reset, no text chat and other realistic race controls would enhance and add depth to online racing.
Gunn, with this comment, you have totally changed what the majority of "hardcore" discussion has been, and that is views. I totally agree with you on those points as it would be really cool to have options like that for servers. In fact it would be AWESOME! But I feel that what view you like or what controller you use has nothing to do with the racing. That is all this discussion has been about with some "driving aids" tossed in for good measure. I'm a hardcore racer just like everyone else. I'm on the servers to race and nothing more. My arguement is only about the forced view as this has nothing to do with the quality of the racing or "equalizing" the racers. There is no advantage to what view you use, or what controller you use, only disadvantages of being forced to use something you can't use.

I'm all for hardcore mode if it is stuff like Gunn has posted there. Forced setups, fuel quantity, tire selection, teleporting, pit strategies, etc. (how many actually do an actual pitstop in a forced pit 10 lap race? Everyone just comes in and pits with fuel refill set at 5% and tire change when 90% worn). These are race options and it matters not if I drive in wheels view because of framerates or I use a mouse or a joystick to steer (forced wheel controllers would allow for joysticks and gamepads). In the discussion up to your post, it is all opinions on what is realistic, fair, and advantaged/disadvantaged.

Gunn

2nd May 2006, 03:57

Gunn, with this comment, you have totally changed what the majority of "hardcore" discussion has been...Indeed I have. Now you can put hardcore modes into perspective instead of claiming that they somehow alienate people.

Tweaker

2nd May 2006, 04:39

I think what Gunn mentioned is the whole gist of what a hardcore simracer truly wants. Restrictions on tire choice, fuel limit, etc.... those are ALL very nice options to have for any online race, whether it be public or in a league. There are always servers that have all cars enabled and hardly any rules at all, and people are very mixed up and unrestricted there, I don't like that. You want races to become fair, but also be 'hardcore' and... interesting? Maybe that word doesn't describe what I am saying, but it leaves a wide array of possibilities for online racing in LFS. Right now, all we can do is restrict the cars, that is about it. If you REALLY want to give a more professional and 'hardcore' approach to this simulation, the best place to start is by having other variables to choose from which change the gameplay to a much higher and competitive level.

mrodgers, I can see that you really do welcome the whole 'hardcore' approach, but I really don't think it would make players refuse to play online or something. If anything, it should show people that racing is not entirely made up of your own preferences allowing racers to do things their own way (eg. custom view, tire choices, easy pitin/pitout setup testing, etc). And I support that. There is a point where people need to play by the rules in racing, and LFS is slowly reaching this point (heck we still need flag penalties). There are many racers out there that love LFS for how easy it is to get online and go racing, but for people that wish to get an experience which feels like it is controlled properly like in reallife, they could join servers with these restrictions.

This all can be an option, and I am sure if the 'hardcore' feature was for serious racers only, not every server admin would enable it. Having this option wouldn't prevent you from joining any other server, you have a choice.

RacingSimFan

2nd May 2006, 05:37

I can understand how a Hardcore mode would suit closed events well but my biggest, almost nauseating fear is that too many public servers running pick-up races will adopt these rules and then the community becomes fragmented further, and even those who would be willing to try everything would be forced to adjust to different rules in different servers, making things confusing and frustrating.

And there would be no way of preventing that short of linking a Hardcore mode to the password system. (ie. a password must be set before Hardcore can be enabled)

I just don't know if the public community could stand such a potential mix-up of rules. The relative continuity we have now is what makes the game so user-friendly. Get in and go. The rules are the same. Just adjust for the car and track.

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 07:34

Well, I'm shure of one thing if this was to be implemented. And that is I would stop playing LFS, thats for shure.

Tweaker

2nd May 2006, 07:52

Well, I'm shure of one thing if this was to be implemented. And that is I would stop playing LFS, thats for shure.

What stops your from joining a server that doesn't have the option enabled? :really:

Man... people keep thinking this would take over the game completely :doh: And not only that, they assume it would totally ruin everything. What is so bad about having restricted tire compounds, fuel limits, and a cockpit view???? :rolleyes:

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 08:58

I'm not talking about the tires or fuel limits.
Only the view. I want to join the servers I want to, and I want to play the game the way I want to. There is very few servers that have more than 10 people on it at the same time.
If this was to be implimented I would of course lose a lot of choises in the servers list. How can you say thats not going to affect the way I'm playing? :pillepall
I can't understand you guys, you don't notice what kind of view I'm driving with. So whats the problem? :shrug:

Pablo.CZ

2nd May 2006, 09:00

2RacingSimFan, MyBoss and others:
:doh: "Hardcore mode" will be NONdefault server OPTION. Its mainly for league races or for enthusiast racers on public who dont like public mess where everyone voting and teleporting after each T1 and then spamming etc..
There is over 300 public servers and most of them has no restrictions, coz its default.
Whats the problem with a few servers set to "hardcore"? No one force you race there.
There is very few servers that have more than 10 people on it at the same time.
Do you know why? Because all cars allowed etc. I never join servers with this, coz there is always some fwd, some lx6, some fxr and some noob with bf1.. more options doesnt mean less people on server, on the contrary

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 09:28

Whats the problem with a few servers set to "hardcore"? No one force you race there.

Do you know why? Because all cars allowed etc. I never join servers with this, coz there is always some fwd, some lx6, some fxr and some noob with bf1.. more options doesnt mean less people on server, on the contrary

"No one force you to race there" True, but I'm forced to race somewhere else, and that is whats my point.

"more options doesnt mean less people on server" True, but if people set their servers to run with Cockpit mode only, then it means fewer servers for us that wants to play the game in the traditional way.

However, I do agree that there should be an option for locked tires and fuel amount.

"Hardcore mode" will be NONdefault server OPTION. for enthusiast racers on public who dont like public mess where everyone voting and teleporting after each T1 and then spamming etc..

Yeah, like locked cockpit view would stop that, and anyway. A person driving with custom view dosen't have to be less enthusiastic.

Pablo.CZ

2nd May 2006, 09:42

True, but if people set their servers to run with Cockpit mode only, then it means fewer servers for us that wants to play the game in the traditional way.
As I said, today, there is about 300 servers with no restrictions (cars, forced pit etc). Why do you think there wont be servers without forced cockpit? Most admins dont change default confings and hardcore wont be defalt..

"fewer servers for us" :really: its fair: 300 servers for you, none for hardcore racers, coz 280/20 is really problem for you as I see.

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 09:55

As I said, today, there is about 300 servers with no restrictions (cars, forced pit etc). Why do you think there wont be servers without forced cockpit? Most admins dont change default confings and hardcore wont be defalt..

"fewer servers for us" :really: its fair: 300 servers for you, none for hardcore racers, coz 280/20 is really problem for you as I see.

You clearly don't see my point. I'm not thinking and I'm not saying there won't be any servers for us thats playing with custom view.
As it is today its 300 servers for everyone. If they implement the forced cockpit, lets say there will be 20 servers with that option enabled.
Of course, you don't need many brain cells to figure out there will be less racers on the default servers, because you hardcore guys will play with the new option. Right?

And because I'm driving with custom view there will be even less drivers in the default servers. Frankly I don't care about how many servers there are, if there is 300 or 5000 dosen't make any difference really, because I, and most others want to race against other drivers. What do I need 300 or 5000 empty servers for?

Pablo.CZ

2nd May 2006, 10:22

Tweaker

2nd May 2006, 10:40

I play with custom view, only view I ever use. It is a hood/roof cam. However, if I play in cockpit view, it isn't much of a problem, I can be just as fast if I stuck with it. My driving skill really isn't that much different, only I am able to see around me more, which is unrealistic. Having a cockpit only mode is a great idea, and people need to adjust to driving a car at any view really... and primarily cockpit view.

The other choice people make is driver's seat position. Left or right seat position is always a choice for people depending on their usual layouts where they live. However, for fast driving, people use it as an advantage to gain more weight on one side of the car. If this was restricted (one seat position), then I would be quite happy. Because this also leaves me to another point why custom views are unrealistic and used to gain an advantage. If any driver wants to switch their seat position to the left or the right, it won't matter if you use a custom view, their position is not changed.

In all, I can see why people would want to use custom view, but it leaves disadvantages and advantages on the track, and that isn't fun. Personally, I like using my custom view, but I feel it is a bit dissapointing I use such a view, while others use cockpit view and are stuck with a limited visual range. I mean, I have my custom view cranked to its highest vertically so I can see into apexes a lot better, centered in the middle of a car, and able to see the left and right side of my car so I can allow cars to get really close to me. That isn't realistic.

So if you want to go on about how you love your custom view, I can go on about mine and tell everyone how cheap it is because I gain an advantage over other drivers. I'd much rather see a server that restricts your view to cockpit view, and have EVERYONE using the same seating position so we can all race at an equal level with an equal challenge. That is one of the main principles behind this entire suggestion.

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 10:46

Huh, there is enough of racers, but are spread because no restrictions! I never join all cars servers coz of total mess there. Actually I dont join any public servers, coz Im fed-up when having great xrg battle and someone joins with fv8 and smash us 1 lap before finish. This means, that if Im on hardcore server, you wont have -1 player on public, coz I dont join public :)
If you want to do something for more racers online, try set more restrict servers and dont blame hardcore options.
About forced cockpit: in games like nKP you dont have chase and others views for driving and there is no problem.
I suppose that hardcore mode will be set of options, not only hardcore=1, that means, you can set all hardcore options to 1 except forced cockpit, but if someone wants forced cockpit for example for league event, why not?

Yeah, but if you join a server with xfg or xrg only, then you won't experience that anyone are coming flying through your car in the FO8.

If the cockpit restriction is implemented I fear we will have two different groups. Those only joining the hardcore servers, those that plays in cockpit view, but dosen't care and play on both servers, and those like me that are forced to play on servers that dosen't have the cockpit restriction.
That will leave me with less competition.
One reason I won't change to cockpit is because I can't move the head, yes, I can turn my head to the sides. But if there is a corner coming up in my blindspot because of the roof bars on the front of the car, then I won't have a chanse to move the head so I can see the car.

Anyway, I don't see any point in discussing this topic any further. Because the devs won't implement it, I'm 99% shure of that.

Tweaker

2nd May 2006, 11:06

Anyway, I don't see any point in discussing this topic any further. Because the devs won't implement it, I'm 99% shure of that.

What if the options where only able to be used when a server is private? This would then allow usage for leagues and serious racers. Afterall, the hardcore racers would want to race all in a group at the same competitive level.

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 11:13

Thats something else, but if that option ever was to be implemented the devs would implement it 100%, not 50%.

Or maybe insted of making a forced cockpit view, they could make it so if you want to change your view, you can only do it inside the car?

Atleast that way you would lose those driving with chase view, but keeping people inside the car. But they would still have some options to change view.

Pablo.CZ

2nd May 2006, 12:20

2Tweaker post #73: amen :)
My english isnt good enough for describe all my thoughts, but you did it well.

2MyBoss: no, only solution is make driver seat adjustable (only ahead/back + up/down like in real car) in cockpit view. There are 2 problems with custom view:
1, as Tweaker said (good point), you can choose right drive position for better weight balance, but drive (have view) on the left side, its "cheat"
2, custom view isnt affected by heads G forces, you cant hide wheel and body and in addition you loose nice cams for making videos or watching replays (im using custom views for cams like in TV)

btw: I drove with custom view until patch S. Then I decided not to cheat :)

ShannonN

2nd May 2006, 12:39

True, but if people set their servers to run with Cockpit mode only, then it means fewer servers for us that wants to play the game in the traditional way.

MYBoss -

I'm rather confused with the above sentence, I take it you don't play LFS with the inside the car (cockpit view) but want to play the game in the "traditional way" now a traditional way to drive a car is from the inside , so cockpit view is the only way to drive, but you are against limiting the driving view to the most common, natural and really the only true driving for realism way? can you see why I'm confused a bit at your statement?

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 12:54

btw: I drove with custom view until patch S. Then I decided not to cheat :)

hmmm, I don't understand, do you mean people that are using custom view are cheaters?

MYBoss -
I'm rather confused with the above sentence, I take it you don't play LFS with the inside the car (cockpit view) but want to play the game in the "traditional way" now a traditional way to drive a car is from the inside , so cockpit view is the only way to drive, but you are against limiting the driving view to the most common, natural and really the only true driving for realism way? can you see why I'm confused a bit at your statement?

What I meant with traditional way was the way the game is now, where you can join the servers you want to regardless of the car view you use.. Picked the wrong word there maybe.

I've explained why I don't want this option into LFS several times now.

1. In LFS you can only move your head to view the left or right of your car, you can't move the head so you get that damn corner out of the blind spot. And in Real life you have much better view than in any game.
2. There would be fewer racers left on the servers that are running the default setting, there are few enough allready.
3. In the end it could divide the community where the hardcore guys thinks they are much better, more serious and dedicated than those with custom view. (can allready see it in this thread)

Here is a pic of my driving view.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1672/altview5qw.jpg

RacingSimFan

2nd May 2006, 13:55

btw: I drove with custom view until patch S. Then I decided not to cheat :)

Cheap shot.:really: As much as I prefer my custom view, I was actually debating trying again to race in cockpit view but since I'm regarded as a cheater for racing in my view I feel much less enthused to race in your view...

I agree with Tweaker's idea that I also suggested earlier: have a Hardcore mode tied to the password system so that a password must be specified before Hardcore mode can be enabled.

Keep the rules the same across the public servers so that people won't get confused and frustrated and give up.

Pablo.CZ

2nd May 2006, 14:08

Sorry, "cheater" is strong and wrong word, I dont know better - I mean to have advantage to others, coz custom view can be realistic but also very unrealistic..

Password (you mean private server for hardcore mode?) doesnt solve anything, people will be on this server if passworded or not.

RacingSimFan

2nd May 2006, 14:31

Password (you mean private server for hardcore mode?) doesnt solve anything, people will be on this server if passworded or not.

The only passworded servers you see nowadays are for closed events. I've seen experiments in the past with passworded normal servers. Trust me, they were ghost towns.

SKurjz

2nd May 2006, 15:18

Having hardcore only available when passworded is stupid. Mebbe the same should be done about the BF1 only servers, because I want to race an FZR on that server damnit.

Of course if the title of the server was Password = hardcore ... that would basically make the server public... so passwording the server solves nothing.

Mario Toyota Racing

2nd May 2006, 15:47

NO everybody should play like they feel comftrable. :thumb: If i am used to drive with the wiev of front wheels than i would suck with locked wiew inside car. I think the best way is like its now:D

Cue-Ball

2nd May 2006, 16:11

I am of the opinion that the person running the server should be given TOTAL control. The server admin should be able to specify just about everything on the server. If you don't like it, there are dozens of other servers to play on, or you can run your own.

Even though I probably wouldn't enforce cockpit view on my server, I sure hope the devs make this option available because I should be able to. The more control server admins have, the more level the playing field can be and the cleaner the racing can be.

Hyperactive

2nd May 2006, 17:41

I am pretty much all for the realism type of player. However some things should be left out as they don't really add anything. For me realism increases the fun factor, like in nkpro I have to start the engine, take care not to stall the engine, only in car view available, use mouse to press buttons etc.. I like it a lot more than the LFS "nfsu"-type of "no damage whatever you do"-approach. After nkpro the LFS feels so arcadey (the physics rock, cars are good, tracks are good, but...).

But if we start pushing the realism too far, it will make the racing more frustrating than fun. Like having a practise session, quali session and race session everytime in random online races with no chance to join mid-race or making the damage repairs last as long they would in real life. Only thing these do is that they allow less driving. For league races these may work and when used correctly they would add to the experience. But not for random online races.

After all, driving LFS is fun partly because you don't need to worry about all the realism factor all the time. Broke the gearbox, for example: Make the gearbox break, but don't make me pay it or wait the rest of the day for it to be fixed :)

Tyrion

2nd May 2006, 18:29

So are you saying that if a server is running options that you don't like then somehow the server admin is alienating you?

I find it odd that people can act like they would be deprived of some cardinal right if a server ran options that they didn't like, effectively stopping them from enjoying the type of racing that those who like the options might enjoy in that server.
If a group of hardcore race sim enthusiasts wish to compete under strict and even conditions it is logical that a non-hardcore racer wouldn't enjoy the action anyway and therefore isn't being deprived of anything that he desires. You wouldn't be missing out on a thing if hardcore servers were in the list.

LFS is a mecca for hardcore sim racers and I believe there is certainly enough support for hardcore options. There is certainly plenty of public servers out there where people can have fun and drive together, but I know I'm not alone in saying that it would be great to see some servers out there that are strictly no nonsense hardcore racing.
A variety of hardcore options that could include fuel load limiting, control tyre choice, no telepitting or reset, no text chat and other realistic race controls would enhance and add depth to online racing.
Not everyone enjoys the public server circus, I certainly don't unless I just feel like screwing around. I can't take public server racing seriously at all.
Some hardcore options would not go astray for serious racers.
I just about completely agree with this.Aside from league racing, the online racing scene hasn't really evolved at all.We're still doing those boring 5 lap sprint races we've always done; they totally dominate the server list, and I dont know if that is what everyone really wants. I want to think it isnt, because I would certainly prefer something else, but right now I think we haven't the tools that might facilitate a change.Why not allow the people who would prefer a different online experience, those very tools?

I'd prefer diversity to conformity any day, even if it alienates some people ( which is a pretty weak argument anyway, you might as well say that servers that don't allow all cars are alienating people).It's your choice as a person to adapt or find a server that does suit your preferences.

Besides, I imagine that an increased diversity would actually encourage more people to race online - the people who don't find the sprint race + t1 carnage experience thrilling might be pleased to see servers that offered something different, be it longer races or some of the possible options Gunn mentioned, or both. :thumb:

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 19:10

I'm a little bit surprised.

Its like you guys think that with a hardcore server. T1 crashes, 5lap races and so on will just wanish. Its not, its pretty naive to even think thats going to happen. Many people thought there would be cleaner racing in S2 compared to S1 because of the damage, well, there isn't.

And agrumenting with that "all cars allowed" thing just isn't the same, its logical that you can't have a public UF1 race if the BF1 or any other fast cars are enabled.

"If a group of hardcore race sim enthusiasts wish to compete under strict and even conditions it is logical that a non-hardcore racer wouldn't enjoy the action anyway and therefore isn't being deprived of anything that he desires. You wouldn't be missing out on a thing if hardcore servers were in the list."

Why do you think a racer with custom view wouldn't enjoy the action just as much? Do you think those running with cockpit view are better drivers? Do you think they are more enthusiastic?
The only differense is the driver view, nothing more, nothing less.

Just a note, I would love to see those other options you are mentioning.
A variety of hardcore options that could include fuel load limiting, control tyre choice, no telepitting or reset, no text chat and other realistic race controls would enhance and add depth to online racing.

Vaillant

2nd May 2006, 19:49

... Do you think those running with cockpit view are better drivers? ...
Nope of course!
They are only Hard_Core_Simmers not The_Best_Simmers :thumb:
Sorry but, what do you think about Papyrus choice to insert in a masterpiece like NR2003 the HARDCORE MODE (Forced Cockpit View) in hosting/joining a game?

Woz

2nd May 2006, 19:59

Woz

2nd May 2006, 20:05

Vaillant

2nd May 2006, 20:35

Can we drop the forced cockpit fight now (...) If the devs want to force cockpit view they will (...)It will be welcome!

(...) So what ELSE, apart from forced cockpit, should be part of hardcore mode?

OK ... forced cockpit apart
= Fixed seat
= Forced Wheel-driving (if possible .... Joystick detection!)
= Forced Manual clutch
= Forced TC if real car simulated get it (to avoid hardcore-simmers become too .... harcore)
= Forced ABS if real car simulated get it (to avoid hardcore-simmers become too .... harcore)
= No TC if no present in real car simulated
= No ABS if no present in real car simulated
= No steering help
......

Tweaker

2nd May 2006, 20:42

On behalf of Woz's post above, this suggestion thread should have posts what Vaillant has posted above too. Lets discuss the things that WOULD make this a nice feature. Otherwise, I think this entire suggestion will continue to be thrown out of proportion, because all I see now is...

"Oh, well if this was put into the game, I sure as hell will never play LFS ever again"....

Throw me a bone!!! When feature suggestions are proposed they always end up being "OMG no!!!!". We've had people complaining that if we ever had a Formula 1 car in the game, and said they'd never play the game again if it happened. We've had people complaining that if we had more than 20 slots on a server everyone would be crashing into each other, and said they'd never play the game again if it happened. Can I just keep repeating myself?

Most people here are so arsed about this game changing. Most people still do not realize that practically EVERY suggestion that affects the gameplay of LFS is not permanent, it is an option. I had my thrills with the BF1, but I am moving onto the other cars, I don't have to join a BF1 only server, I have a choice. So to say that you will be isolated from servers that have such options enabled, and only left with empty servers, that is bullshit. There are over 300+ servers to choose from, you could join an empty one and people will start joining. My team's server last night had nobody in it, I switched it up to a fun new combo, it has had a great night of racing on it.

Bring about change you guys, or else we have a game that doesn't grow into something that is quite possibly better. Besides, LFS has always been implementing features that most simulations would die for. Not to mention, those kinds of features that some people disagree on, but actually have no affect on them after they try it. Stop exaggerating. Trend setting is one thing, but having people say they won't play a game anymore because of some popular feature/option, that is absurd.

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 20:56

"Oh, well if this was put into the game, I sure as hell will never play LFS ever again"....

It shure is fun to discuss when people pick ONE line of all that I have said in this thread, focus everything on that sentence and impressively manages to jump over all the other I have said. Neat, isn't it!

So to say that you will be isolated from servers that have such options enabled, and only left with empty servers, that is bullshit.

It truly is, because I haven't said that, I'm answering like that because shure this post of yours was aimed at me, right?

Here is what I said, once again.
1. In LFS you can only move your head to view the left or right of your car, you can't move the head so you get that damn corner out of the blind spot. And in Real life you have much better view than in any game.
2. There would be fewer racers left on the servers that are running the default setting, there are few enough allready.
3. In the end it could divide the community where the hardcore guys thinks they are much better, more serious and dedicated than those with custom view. (can allready see it in this thread)

It will be welcome!
OK ... forced cockpit apart
= Fixed seat
= Forced Wheel-driving (if possible .... Joystick detection!)
= Forced Manual clutch
= Forced TC if real car simulated get it (to avoid hardcore-simmers become too .... harcore)
= Forced ABS if real car simulated get it (to avoid hardcore-simmers become too .... harcore)
= No TC if no present in real car simulated
= No ABS if no present in real car simulated
= No steering help
......

Agree on most of those. The server could allso have an option to force people to drive with the same amount of fuel, no car resetting, no race-join after start.

Tweaker

2nd May 2006, 21:07

In general those are peoples reactions to any suggestion. Guess you don't see my point. Unless you want me to go and search hundreds of threads in which people say "YES or NO to what could be an outstanding feature for LFS in the future, but I wont play the game anymore because of it."

Divide the community my ass!!!! People have their own homes in LFS, they go and do their regular procedures online, and people can race online wherever they want. Oval racers are happily racing around in circles by themselves in their small 'group'. People that want to do long 20-30 lap races online can join any of those endurance servers. People that want to fool around on a server that has all the cars enabled can join those. Having choices for where to race online has always been this way, and you see people joining servers which have things they like. If there isn't a server online that only allows the UF1 at FE RallyX, well tough, but would I just not play the game alltogether, or feel 'divided'? No. You have plenty of other choices, and those kinds of choices would be no different from trying to choose from a normal server or a hardcore server. When the BF1 first came out, practically all the servers had it enabled. But as time has progressed, people have moved back to what they prefer, be it roadcars or the GTR cars. The same would happen for this feature, and I don't see how everyone would be forced to join active servers that have it, other servers would play with it off, no doubt. And to think you wouldn't even want to TRY it, just goes to show you are already dividing yourself from the community, or in places where the game wants to expand and try new things :pillepall

So suddenly you agree on these options, but still think it will bring disaster to online racing in LFS. Well we can only wait and see. Besides, you are 100% sure Scawen wouldn't make this, but I do recall one of the devs mentioned it?

tristancliffe

2nd May 2006, 21:15

I would like a proper hardcore mode - forced cockpit view, limited tyre changes, limited setup options, complete race weekends, saved online so league weekends can occur over several days with no tweaking of setups other than the allowed parameters, no on screen chat, no on screen lap times (other than pitboard and dashboard), no look behind view (mirrors only), no virtual mirror option, forced wind... etc etc.

But I would not want it to be a widespead thing - perhaps only for private servers and league races, although a few will of course use it on public servers. But it would be almost useless, from a fun point of view, and so the vast majority or servers will be 'normal', as that would be what the masses demand. So don't fret about not having a decent number of servers. It would barely change a thing for public races, and probably not all league servers.

Vaillant

2nd May 2006, 21:16

... all I see now is... "Oh, well if this was put into the game, I sure as hell will never play LFS ever again" ...
For sure you dont see all .....
You have to consider that there is a kind of player that already likes to play only in an, how can I say?, "handmade" hardcore_mode. And this player doesn't like play against no-HC players :) : I'm one of these "handmade" HC simmers.
I'v got LFS1 > S2 ALPHA, but I very rarely play LFS :shy: coze I'm just waiting for an HC-mode: so ..... I created this thread.
Maybe the correct title of this thread was "I'd like to play LFS. Give me, please, an HC-Mode"

Tweaker

2nd May 2006, 21:23

So don't fret about not having a decent number of servers. It would barely change a thing for public races, and probably not all league servers.

Exactly, because there are features that have been made for more of a league's focus.... such as the 'timed/hourly' race for endurance racing. You don't see 1 hour races publicly, most people just have their server using 5-10 lap races and it is quick, easy, and fun. I know that most people would not approve of the hardcore mode, and would want to go and find a normal public server. But like with that timed race setting, you would find it would be well suited for private races and leagues that wish to keep an even playing field. Publicly, I doubt the option would make much of an appeal to racers, maybe a few servers would have it, but I doubt it would be a craze that spreads like crazy online. Think about that 'MUST PIT' feature we have, you don't see that used often in servers. But when it is enabled, that is quite fun.

So I think if these 'hardcore' options were able to be set seperately, that would be nice. If the options were bundled all into one 'hardcore' mode, well... that would spoil some things. Having restrictions on fuel and tire choice for example, that is something we need no matter what.

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 21:33

So suddenly you agree on these options, but still think it will bring disaster to online racing in LFS. Well we can only wait and see. Besides, you are 100% sure Scawen wouldn't make this, but I do recall one of the devs mentioned it?

The forced cockpit option that was suggested in the first post in this thread is the ONLY option I don't want into the game. I thought I made that VERY clear.

And where have I said I'm 100% shure that the devs won't implement the feature?

And to think you wouldn't even want to TRY it, just goes to show you are already dividing yourself from the community, or in places where the game wants to expand and try new things

And again, where have I said I won't try it? Its not fair of you to say things about me that you don't know anything about.
For your information I have tried default view (cockpit) more and more lately.
But that clearly isn't the point, I would mean exactly the same if I allso used cockpit view.

I thought about one thing, how about the devs implements some kind of option that allows everyone on the server to view each others driving positions? That way, leagues could have a rule about view settings, and just check if everyone is obeying the rule.

Tweaker

2nd May 2006, 21:36

Oh and MyBoss, I only gave your post(s) as an example because the majority of good suggestions are ultimately thrown out of proportion by people saying "NO, this will ruin everything", and then can make people jump on the bandwagon and start saying "NO" aswell, without even thinking or discussing the topic completely, to give the feature more 'edge'. I know you made your point with that by just the 'forced cockpit' option... but from reading everything in here, it just looks to shut down the entire suggestion completely. People could get the wrong impression. I've seen plenty of threads with GREAT feature suggestions, but then they start to turn into disagreements and don't take the suggestion anywhere, and yet again... we are left with no ideas. If we keep it up, LFS will just be same old - same old.

There are some suggestions which are easily answered with "NO" (like neons and bodykits :rolleyes: ), but for suggestions in which people like or dislike, a debate on the suggestion never turns in the right direction. For people that want such a risky suggestion, they need to think about what would affect the game in good and positive ways. The same goes for people what wouldn't want the suggestion... there needs to be a discussion about why this part would be so bad, but another could be quite good. We cannot just write-off a suggestion as being bad without even discussing it or without creating collaboration of ideas.

Look at how the RaceAbout got its debut in LFS. Someone suggested it over at RSC, most people liked it, some didn't exactly like the design, but all in all, people could approve of it one way or another. ;)

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 21:45

Oh and MyBoss, I only gave your post(s) as an example because the majority of good suggestions are ultimately thrown out of proportion by people saying "NO, this will ruin everything", and then can make people jump on the bandwagon and start saying "NO" aswell, without even thinking or discussing the topic completely, to give the feature more 'edge'. I know you made your point with that by just the 'forced cockpit' option... but from reading everything in here, it just looks to shut down the entire suggestion completely. People could get the wrong impression. I've seen plenty of threads with GREAT feature suggestions, but then they start to turn into disagreements and don't take the suggestion anywhere, and yet again... we are left with no ideas. If we keep it up, LFS will just be same old - same old.

True, I allso see the benefits of forced cockpit (leagues and organised events).
But I think I made some good points, I didn't just say "NO this is stupid".

I think we should follow Woz'es excample and let go of this discussion, atleast for now. So we can discuss the other Hardcore options.

Can we drop the forced cockpit fight now.

The forced cockpit debate has been thrashed to death here and in RSC over the years have ALWAYS ended up the same.

tristancliffe

2nd May 2006, 21:51

I bet Scawen's already got a list of things to include in a hardcore mode, and will no longer bother reading most of these threads about it. He know's what he wants in LFS, and it's rare he makes a bad decision.

MyBoss

2nd May 2006, 21:55

it's rare he makes a bad decision.

True, can't even remember any bad decitions:) But on the other hand, one time have to be the first :smash3d:

Rappa Z

2nd May 2006, 22:18

It will be welcome!

OK ... forced cockpit apart
= Fixed seat
= Forced Wheel-driving (if possible .... Joystick detection!)
= Forced Manual clutch
= Forced TC if real car simulated get it (to avoid hardcore-simmers become too .... harcore)
= Forced ABS if real car simulated get it (to avoid hardcore-simmers become too .... harcore)
= No TC if no present in real car simulated
= No ABS if no present in real car simulated
= No steering help
......

i say yes to all but the joystick thing. I use joystick 'cause me panents sold the wheel.:( Before hardcore mode we will have to have marshalls waving flags.

Woz

3rd May 2006, 02:03

Forced TC is not right. EVERY car that has TC allows the driver to disable it with the flick of a switch or the press of a button.

TC helps you go faster if you do not understand car dynamics but when you do it just slows you down because it takes actions it feels it has to take instead of what you want to take. If you and the TC do not agree it becomes a fight over the control of the car.

I ALWAYS disabled it in my BMW Mini Cooper as I hated it.

The only exception to this rule is when cars get up to the power/weight ratio of F1 style cars before the downforce kicks in because its too easy to step outside the circle of grip on the drive wheels in this situation.

The ABS issue is a strange one. First we dont have ABS yet, just brake help which is different, but when implemented the locking it on/off is a tough one. Most road cars fitted with it have it enabled and it can't be turned off but I don't know if GTR cars give a driver control over this?
Being able to turn control ABS on cars (We dont have any at the moment because we have brake help not ABS) is harder to arg.

Forced manual clutch I dont like. I use a clutch pedal as I have a 3 pedal system BUT if I only had 2 pedals I would use auto clutch. In fact when first I got my shifter I only had 2 pedal system so used the shifter with auto clutch. I do not consider a button a clutch replacement because NO car has a clutch button on the wheel so expecting people to use button clutch if they only had 2 pedals would not be fair.

Forced use of wheel controller again follows the forced clutch option. Not good IMHO. The JS and KB users are already at a disadvantage over wheel users with FF so as long as they can drive clean I do not care what they use.

All other aids, like throttle blip etc should be off unless the car would do this IRL, like an F1 car would.

I think most others agree about the following.

- No race restart only race end from people IN the race.
- No mid race join.
- No jump to pits, only retire from race.
- Start race only active after race end.
- No F9 & F10 views or other HUD displays (Apart from flag indication until we have real flags)
- Some damage should take longer to repair. So bad crash = long pitstop or race retire.

Another possibility is limited number of tires for race/race weekend. So if you flatspot or cook tires its tough, you should have taken more care of them.

tristancliffe

3rd May 2006, 06:37

Another possibility is limited number of tires for race/race weekend. So if you flatspot or cook tires its tough, you should have taken more care of them.

Agreed, as long as this isn't in the 'normal' mode. Whilst it's 'realistic', it's an exceptionally annoying 'feature' of netKar as it applies in ALL modes, although the amount of tyres isn't limited you just have the manually change them.

tailing

3rd May 2006, 10:17

Woz

3rd May 2006, 11:25

I actually use cockpit view, I switched from wheels mode purely for the formulas in S2 and not having to change my default view all the time. Having used both extensively you'll never convince me there's anything substantially more realistic to cockpit view given the limitations of playing a sim on a pc.
However, from some of the posts in this thread I can see there is some legitimate want/need for some other so-called "hardcore" options and I wouldn't really object to those being server side options.
I think Woz is right that we should seperate the issue of fcv from any sort of hardcore mode, this would probably raise the chances of some of these other options becoming available in the future. This thread is clear that fcv is a very devisive issue and it could be just what is stopping the devs from implementing the other ideas.

btw, as a league admin some options like 'no warping to pits' aren't really that necessary because it's a simple matter to implement rules and enforce them. Just wanted to mention that as leagues are often given as an example for why some of these things are necessary but it isn't always the case.

It would be good if the option could be turned on/off by server users in a similar way to how you change tracks now. So End race, set/clear hardcore mode and then start new race. This solves the "all servers will turn on the option" argument and it lets the servers users decide what mode they want.

So it has a place outside leagues, I see it more in line with the old CRC in that people who want serious races have servers while people wanting pickup races can avoid some of the more limiting rules, such as no mid race join etc.

tailing

5th May 2006, 08:43

Is an all inclusive mode really the best way to go about it though? I mean even those who want a hardcore mode don't seem to agree on what it should consist of. It could be better just to include a range of server side options and then the server owner can tailor the server as they see fit. For example with the aforementioned tyre and fuel limits, I don't imagine everyone wanting to use the hardcore mode on their server would always want these particular options enabled.
The devs seem reluctant to add in a lot of server side options though, just going by how many different ones are requested that have never made it into the game. I think it could work though and being that it would require more work on the sever owners part would mean you wouldn't have a whole slew of servers automatically enabling the hardcore mode as soon as it became available. This would possibly alleviate the concerns of those who aren't in favour of a hardcore mode for the reasons stated earlier, feeling they would suddenly be locked out of most servers.

yegadoyai

8th May 2006, 15:30

I am the server admin for the local Uni net gaming society (guns.snakebomb.com). Having started everyone playing LFS demo over the past year, it has come time when we shift up to S2 (Yay). However one of the major problems I have in the game is controlling the people playing it. Having a hardcore option, or the features that have been proposed as a server side option would be hugely advantageous for me as, so far, the only real options I have is to limit the car they are driving and set the race distance. Can you imagine a Quake 3 tourney where you were allowed to change your veiw? Or a Counter Strike tourney where your teammates turn out to be using joypads? Simply not enough control. Forcing veiws and suchlike would also discourage silly behavoir that was exhibited at our last lan where 2 lads decided to play micro machines style. No problem for me, but for those that were behind them at any stage it was a nightmare. Other options like tyre wear rate and fuel consumption scaling would be nice and would also need to be locked in a hardcore mode.

Mazz4200

8th May 2006, 16:38

Where's Bernie when you need him ?

yegadoyai

8th May 2006, 16:43

I thought it was Max's job?

Mazz4200

8th May 2006, 16:59

Max is the head honcho of FIA, so he's responsible for the rules within the sport
Bernie, is (was) the guy who basically owned F1, he decide's where, when and in a manner of speaking, how they race. And, if certain biography's are to be believed, he's even had a say in, who wins :)

ShannonN

12th May 2006, 07:02

hmmm, I don't understand, do you mean people that are using custom view are cheaters?

What I meant with traditional way was the way the game is now, where you can join the servers you want to regardless of the car view you use.. Picked the wrong word there maybe.

I've explained why I don't want this option into LFS several times now.

1. In LFS you can only move your head to view the left or right of your car, you can't move the head so you get that damn corner out of the blind spot. And in Real life you have much better view than in any game.
2. There would be fewer racers left on the servers that are running the default setting, there are few enough allready.
3. In the end it could divide the community where the hardcore guys thinks they are much better, more serious and dedicated than those with custom view. (can allready see it in this thread)

Here is a pic of my driving view.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1672/altview5qw.jpg

Ok Now I can understand better, as you said it was a wrong choice of word
:)

Bluebird B B

14th May 2006, 11:54

By forcing cockpit, however much people bitch about it creates servers with people who race cleanly and puts off wreckers and so on. Most sims would set their hardcore mode up to force wheels as well. I don't think this would suit LFS, as some people can be not just fast but also safe with the mouse. Possibly a keyboard ban would be good though.

Mouse racing should be banned, i really get annoyed the combo mouse/keyb is still so good and fast. These people use also very strange setups to suit there complete unrealistic controls.

Not only cockpit should be forced, also the brakes should have a minimum brakeforce for every car. I really hate it to see people abusing the brakeforce to create a sort of abs system.

If you would do that i a real car, i would mean you have to hit the brakes with all the strength you have in your legs to slow down the car for a corner. Try that 500 times in a row!! Nobody can do that!

Vaillant

14th May 2006, 20:55

... Here is a pic of my driving view.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1672/altview5qw.jpg
... for you is it a SIM-view? :scratchch

Woz

14th May 2006, 22:38

Mouse racing should be banned, i really get annoyed the combo mouse/keyb is still so good and fast. These people use also very strange setups to suit there complete unrealistic controls.

STOP THIS NOW. What you hate is that someone using that setup has more skill and hence is faster than you are with a wheel. We have had the keyboard fights a while back and the issues, as far as most people were concerned, were solved at that time.

Not only cockpit should be forced, also the brakes should have a minimum brakeforce for every car. I really hate it to see people abusing the brakeforce to create a sort of abs system.

If you would do that i a real car, i would mean you have to hit the brakes with all the strength you have in your legs to slow down the car for a corner. Try that 500 times in a row!! Nobody can do that!

NO on cockpit. I used to be like you a while back but in the end it does not matter that much. What matters is that people are clean and want a serious race. No on minimum brake force.

ALL that matters is that people race clean and want a serious race, that is the point of a hardcore mode.

Vaillant

14th May 2006, 23:48

... What you hate is that someone using that setup has more skill and hence is faster than you are with a wheel ...
:smileypul ... please!!!

... ALL that matters is that people race clean and want a serious race, that is the point of a hardcore mode.
That is the point of clean and serious players. All players have to race clean and serious race, but this is'nt enough to be an hardcore player

afastest

15th May 2006, 01:35

Can we drop the forced cockpit fight now.

The forced cockpit debate has been thrashed to death here and in RSC over the years have ALWAYS ended up the same. One side saying "its only an option" and the other side "but it will become the default and I hate cockpit mode or my FPS drops too much so I wont be able to play". I know because I have been involved in some of them myself.

NOTHING has been added to this debate at all and it never will.

Both side have a point and both side will not move their viewpoint so it becomes a flame war.

So true.

Anyway I copy/paste a part of my "discussion" on this matter from the old RSC thread:

There are plenty of restrictions when playing a sim anyway:
-Looking through a small monitor of about 30° FOV (real life fov about 150°).
-The picture is not 3D, it's a mere projection to the surface of your monitor.
-You can't move your body neither your head, except turning it by pressing a button.
-Knowing the position of the wheels and bumber is by far more difficult in lfs than irl (from cockpit).

Besides all that, there are so many other "unrealities" about the game and the way we play it. This is a game, which we play on our computers the way each one of us prefer.

Having a bigger monitor gives some advantage compared to 15", especially in cockpit view. Some have 15" monitor and play with a mouse, and other with a 40" screen, FF wheel and three pedals. Some use 60° fov and claim it represents the view realisticly, other uses 95° to see the side mirrors. I don't care how others play it.

And as for other options like forced TC or fuel amount, or no damage repair or whatever, that's a different story, I'm for it.

Vaillant

15th May 2006, 02:40

... This is a game, which we play on our computers the way each one of us prefer ...
God save ... "philosophy" :nod:

You can play the way you prefere: with mouse? ... with keyboard? .... out

of the car? ..... into the car? ....from helicopter?

OK! No problem for me .... :thumb:

Why, instead, I can get no opportunity to play LFS in an Hardcore MODE

"a-la-NR2003"? :shrug:

It'd be a way added ... not the way to play LFS.

Why not?

afastest

15th May 2006, 13:37

Why, instead, I can get no opportunity to play LFS in an Hardcore MODE

You can play from cockpit, with a FF wheel, three pedals, no aids right now. But you want to get some credit for that? So you can say I am HARDCORE simracer, I play only in HARDCORE mode? And everyone will know who these HARDCORE simracers are, as they play on their own HARDCORE servers, separated from the rest, non-hardcore simracers. Or what is it all about? For me it's about fun and clean racing, I couldn't care less how hardcore someone is.

Until everyone of us have peripheral 180° screen in front of us, it's too early to talk about forced cockpit view.

Vaillant

15th May 2006, 19:46

Sorry but does anyone consider an "a-la-Papy" HC MODE for LFS a ...

danger?

Ne1 wanna be better then other couze HC MODE player.

Papyrus created HC MODE for their Masterpiece: was / is it so ...

"dangerous"?

Woz

15th May 2006, 21:33

:smileypul ... please!!!

That is the point of clean and serious players. All players have to race clean and serious race, but this is'nt enough to be an hardcore player

You are taking yourself TOO serious. As mentioned in an earlier post of mine, the forced cockpit view has been thrashed to death again and again and again and again. Look in the RSC LFS forum and this forum to find this.

You appear to want to carry the HARDCORE tag as a badge to make you feel better than other people on the track. "but this is'nt enough to be an hardcore player" lol

LFS is as its best when there is close clean racing. What many are after is a mode that if for people that want a serious race with good clean racing. A step up from pick up servers. I do not care if the people I race with use js, kb or a wheel in wheels view or even top down view if that is what they want. All that matters is they they can keep their car on the track, drive well and follow normal race rules.

RIGHT, NOW TO BE SERIOUS.

If you want a REAL hardcore mode how about this

<JOKE>
View is locked to cockpit view BUT with realistic FOV. SO if you have a 15" monitor that is 2' from your eyes you should be forced to set your FOV less than 30degs because this is realistic for the viewport you have.

NO FOV above 50 should be allowed ever unless you have a 3 monitor setup because it will distort the view you see on the monitor from real life and not give true representation of corners.

How about if you dont have a shifter your MUST be forced to use auto gears in cars that would not have a seq gearbox.

Forced non digital clutch should also be forced on people. If they only have 2 peddle setups they can ONLY drive cars that do not have a clutch.
</JOKE>

GROW UP

Vaillant

15th May 2006, 23:34

You are taking yourself TOO serious ...
Error!

I take LFS serious.

I'd like LFS more complete :thumb:

Too many words Woz :nod: and no answer to my simple question: what about

Papyrus choice to create an HARD CORE MODE with fixed cockpit view for

their Masterpiece NR2003.

Have they to grow up ... too? :schwitz:

I'm still waitin for an answer from the .... beginning :smileypul

... "but this is'nt enough to be an hardcore player" lol ...

Why LOL?

I'm happy for your happyness, but never said that "hardcore player"

means "the best player" or "a player better then other" ..... he's only a player

that prefere a specific kind of sim - experience.

Woz

16th May 2006, 00:46

...

If you want to be that serious join a league, or start one with the rules you want.

I used to be of the force cockpit view mob as well a while back and only drive in cockpit mode. But over time I have realised we are, as other have stated, limited in our representation of reality.

1) We use a monitor that gives a small FOV, as humans we have 180deg FOV although most of that is just sense of movement.
2) We get no real depth perception as the monitor is flat while in reality we see distance, unless you only have one eye.

If you are really serious about forced cockpit you should ALSO be serious about FOV. In most cases the FOV people use gives a distorted view of the sim environment as it has to get more FOV than possible into the display. This gives the Warp effect on the display.

SO if you want to force cockpit view you also HAVE to force a realistic FOV or again there is NO REALITY.

Sit at your DESK or where ever you PLAY LFS and then imagine 2 lines from the centre of your face to the two edges of the monitor. NOW LOOK at the angle they represent and set you FOV to this because this is realistic.

If you are not willing to drive with anything else than realistic FOV you are not hardcore by your definition.

BTW, what FOV do you use when you drive

Vaillant

16th May 2006, 02:19

If you want to be that serious join a league, or start one with the rules you want ...
Wow .... :nod:
But .... how can league control if players respect HC-M rules without an HC-Mode allowed? :smileypul
Before LFS and its "serious" HC-Mode and after "serious" rules and "serious" leagues :thumb:
We hope .....
Bye

Woz

16th May 2006, 03:09

Wow .... :nod:
But .... how can league control if players respect HC-M rules without an HC-Mode allowed? :smileypul
Before LFS and its "serious" HC-Mode and after "serious" rules and "serious" leagues :thumb:
We hope .....
Bye

Nice of you to ignore ALL off my comments on FOV and brush them away.

Please answer my question on FOV. Would forced cockpit also FORCE a low FOV so its realistic or not? If not then how can you say its realistic to force cockpit view and then allow unrealistic and distorted view through the cockpit?

Without FOV locked to the region of 30-40deg it is NOT a realistic FOV so your WHOLE argument on forced cockpit boils down to sim snobery and hence is NOT VALID.

What FOV do you use BTW and what size monitor and how far from your face is the monitor? Time to get some FACTS on how "REALISTIC AND HARDCORE" you like your sim racing shall we :) I just HOPE you do not say you use an FOV of 80+ because that is such a distorted view that you might as well run in wheel only mode for the sake of your argument!

Tweaker

16th May 2006, 03:21

I would just give up talking about this topic to be honest. I find that most topics that have mixed opinions never completely get the developer's call in putting it in the game. Most of the time, I just wait and see what they implement in the game, and it is usually always a good idea. So if they decide to put in a hardcore mode, I am pretty sure it will not be so extremely hardcore that it limits a player's ability to enjoy it... that seems to be the concept the devs want to achieve. So I take it, what was said already about some options being included, and some not... those could help. But this mode could clearly be implemented in the simplest of ways, and not be so detailed like we are all making it in this thread.

Just my thoughts.... The thread is just in a loophole at the moment ;)

mrodgers

16th May 2006, 11:35

Nice of you to ignore ALL off my comments on FOV and brush them away......................
Woz, that's exactly what I say. I use 60 degrees, BTW. I would use lower than that if I had external gauges, but I don't so I need the gauges on the screen. I made this exact arguement quite a while ago that anything over 60 degrees is unrealistic because the perspective is all stretched out in front of you. My 60 degrees is based on what I "see" looking straight ahead out the windshield in real life, not what I "perceive" in my periferal vision. I can't look and see the detail of my mirrors in my periferal vision, I have to turn my head. Same as in LFS. I can just "see" the edge of the headliner IRL, same as 60FOV in LFS. And I can just "see" the A-pillar IRL, just as my 60FOV in LFS. Only thing wrong with 60FOV is that I can't "see" my gauges IRL, but can in LFS. IRL I have to move my sight down to see and read the gauges.

Two pages in this "hardcore mode" thread only talked about cockpit view when I joined in and posted that more than 60FOV is unrealistic. Since then, I believe SamH piped in about other options for HC Mode about fuel use, tire use, forced setup, etc. That is where discussion of the real hardcore mode really comes in to play. That is where I would vote yes for HC mode. Not with anything to do with the view you drive with.

RacingSimFan

16th May 2006, 13:47

I believe SamH piped in about other options for HC Mode about fuel use, tire use, forced setup, etc. That is where discussion of the real hardcore mode really comes in to play. That is where I would vote yes for HC mode. Not with anything to do with the view you drive with.

Me too. I'd like to see some of those things as well. Just don't force a particular driving view on me, that's all.:nod:

Vaillant

16th May 2006, 15:49

... Please answer my question on FOV ...
:smileypul Please answer my old .... er question on Papy and their choice to create an Hard Core Mod with Fixed Cockpit View for that masterpiece called NR2003 :thumb:
... more than 60FOV is unrealistic ...
Mates! Please .... this is neverending philosophy.
You are waiting for a "really" realistic sim? a "really" realistic view? a "really" realistic ABS? ... etc etc etc etc?
OK .... you will wait since a Softwer House will put a real car under your "back".
Meanwhile .... I'd like to play with a complete sim ( if possible )

P.S. Of course, sorry for my "doggy" english .... :shy:

Woz

16th May 2006, 20:01

Mates! Please .... this is neverending philosophy.
You are waiting for a "really" realistic sim? a "really" realistic view? a "really" realistic ABS? ... etc etc etc etc?
OK .... you will wait since a Softwer House will put a real car under your "back".
Meanwhile .... I'd like to play with a complete sim ( if possible )

P.S. Of course, sorry for my "doggy" english .... :shy:

And you are trying to make a sim "more realistic" in an unrealistic way!

So again you avoid FOV. So come on, shut us all up with how HARDCORE you are. What FOV do you use and what size is your monitor and HOW FAR do you sit from it. If you want to force what you consider hardcore then show us how hardcore YOU ARE!

In the Papy sim BTW it was FORCED to a single FOV as well so tell us what FOV should be forced on people in this hardcore mode. This is the FOV you would want to make EVERYONE use BTW, there will be NO CHOICE when in hardcore mode, just as in Papy.

So please answer the FOV question and it might stop this once and for all.

Vaillant

16th May 2006, 20:42

No more Woz, please, no more!!! :bowdown:
...... As I said in #97 (.... have you readed? :smileypul )
.... I very rarely play LFS coze I'm just waiting for an HC-mode: so ..... I created this thread
My preferred FOV is'nt important, simply couze It doesn't exist :ices_rofl
I have'nt a preferred FOV. I never touched the default in-car view FOV!
When I play LFS (rarely) I use the default in-car view.
Never touched its FOV.
Papyrus decided what FOV to use in their Hard Core Mode? ... Ok! I played it without problems!!!!
LFS Crew will decide what FOV to use in an eventual LFS Hard Core Mod? ... OK, I'll play without problems.
For me default in-car view FOV is good

MyBoss

16th May 2006, 20:51

... for you is it a SIM-view? :scratchch

yes, yes it is

SKurjz

16th May 2006, 21:03

mrodgers

16th May 2006, 21:05

Valliant, you quoted yourself that you are "waiting for an HC-mode: so ..... I created this thread". You posted a picture of what you felt was "not a realistic" driving view. I stated my opinion that if you want to force others to drive in a particular view for hardcore mode because that is what's realistic, then you should also force a FOV (post # 8) because what I feel is realistic is different than what others think.

I then argued that there is no advantage to using any different view. We do not need to be forced to a cockpit view because of the fact that there is no advantage. I also stated the disadvantages of using other than cockpit view.

"It's all opinions on what is better and what is realistic." That is a quote from my post. I'm not arguing that you should be forced to use my FOV. I'm arguing that you should NOT be forced to use a different view than you like, because there is no agreement on what is realistic. That is my point about the FOV.

I don't care if you drive from the cockpit, an FOV of 300, from on top of the car, or even from a shift-U camera. None of it is realistic, but I prefer to build my racing "area" to be as realistic as possible including my own wheel, the distance from wheel to monitor (dashboard area) and what I clearly see focusing straight out the windshield at the track/road in the SIM and real life.

I never ran online with NR2003 so have never had the experience of "hardcore mode" there. But I can say after driving LFS the way I do, going back to NR2003, it doesn't allow me to create a realistic view (in my opinion) as the FOV doesn't go low enough. The view ends up having the equivalent of a 3 foot steering column since I use my own Momo wheel when taking view into account.

P.S. Of course, sorry for my "doggy" english .... :shy:
I see absolutely nothing wrong with your "doggy" english. It all seems quite fine to me :thumb: .

Woz

16th May 2006, 22:11

No more Woz, please, no more!!! :bowdown:
...... As I said in #97 (.... have you readed? :smileypul )

My preferred FOV is'nt important, simply couze It doesn't exist :ices_rofl
I have'nt a preferred FOV. I never touched the default in-car view FOV!
When I play LFS (rarely) I use the default in-car view.
Never touched its FOV.
Papyrus decided what FOV to use in their Hard Core Mode? ... Ok! I played it without problems!!!!
LFS Crew will decide what FOV to use in an eventual LFS Hard Core Mod? ... OK, I'll play without problems.
For me default in-car view FOV is good

If you do not care what FOV you use then how can you possibly even want to force a locked FOV cockpit view on people? What if a FOV of 100 was the forced option because more people wanted that, would you be happy?

The ONLY time forced cockpit will become an issue is when things like dirt on the screen are added. When these come in it could be an advantage not being in cockpit view.

Until then, from your argument at least, its someone that sounds like they just want to pin on a badge that say "I am hardcore, are you?" even when they don't actually care what "being hardcore" actually means!

99.9999% agree that a hardcore mode should jump to pits, car reset etc etc etc. But I have yet to see a single valid reason for forced cockpit.

tristancliffe

16th May 2006, 23:01

Woz

16th May 2006, 23:51

I want a hardcore mode, and I want it restricted to the cockpit view. I use an FOX of 90 degrees, and I agree it's not a 'realistic' view in so much as distortion can be large. However, there is no way, until massive screens become commonplace, to achieve a realistic FOV AND have a good view of the mirrors, instruments, and your sides.

So quit moaning about the FOV being unrealistic as there is no viable alternative.

You have missed the point.

You run at 90 FOV and that is fine and I run 63 FOV. I have NO problems with that at all. How would you YOU like to be forced a lower FOV in the area of 60-65, which is what Papy do in hardcore mode?

If you are going to force equal view setting on everyone in a Hardcore mode then you HAVE TO FORCE a set FOV for all. If you dont then everyone is free to change their FOV and so not everyone has the same view. So what has been gained by forcing cockpit mode?

The whole key to this debate can be summed up in the following question and I bet NOBODY that want forced cockpit view can answer this.

How is a cockpit view with 90 FOV more realistic than a custom bonnet cam with 60 FOV?

At the moment there is NO NEED to force cockpit view on people that dont want it. I say this as a die hard cockpit view user, but that is MY choice. When dirty windscreen or other effects that would put cockpit users at a disadvantage are introduced then it becomes more of an issue and will need to be looked at.

As you say, there is no fully 'realistic' representation that we can put on a monitor so why should one mode, that is just as unrealistic as any of the others, be the one that is forced.

Yep force no restart, jump to pits etc etc as these are equal for everyone and would improve the race experience for all.

Gunn

17th May 2006, 00:46

Vaillant

17th May 2006, 00:58

Sorry Woz but it's a big mistake!!!
For me, Cockpit View is mandatory in an Hard Core Mode ...... but not FOV regulation.
You can use all FOVs you want, but ...... IN-CAR.
You prefere FOV 64° .... go with 64°!
I prefere another FOV ... ok, I use it .......... but IN-CAR!
I mean fixed ... the cockpit, not the view :nod:
Of course I can move my "seat" fore and back but not up and down and not, of course ..... left and right!!!:D

Vaillant

17th May 2006, 01:04

mrodgers

17th May 2006, 01:25

...For those who say that other views can have no advantage, you are incorrect. If they had no advantage you wouldn't be using them. Driving from the roof allows a clearer view of the track ahead and the cars around you. Driving from the bumper removes all obstacles from your sight, ie: your dash and car. Driving from the middle of the car has an obvious advantage and is as unrealistic as the former two views mentioned...
I'm sorry, but I still completely disagree that there is an advantage to NOT using cockpit view. It is a DISadvantage. Big deal, you can see more of the track around you. If you'd be able to focus on my driver in a replay, you would see him turning his head constantly when there is traffic around. I can see traffic coming in my mirror (rearview) and when that traffic leaves my mirror, I see which side of me he moved to. Then I am constantly looking out that side for him. I am just fine driving like this as I now have the experience and the knowledge of the tracks to be able to continue without looking forwards. Therefore, the "above the car" driver no longer has that advantage since I see the same as him. It's called track awarenes, or is it racecraft that most know it as?

The disadvantage of driving NOT in cockpit view is that you cannot "feel" what the car is doing as well. This is both above and in wheels view. I ran wheels view from the time S2 came out until November for framerates. I hated it, because I was use to cockpit view and the feedback it gives. But I had to live with it because it was the difference between being able to run LFS or not. Wheels view is not an advantage because your focus is drawn to the front wheels and the apex rather than where it should be out ahead on the track.

Take away the "advantage" of someone using wheels or chase view by your track awareness and side looking, and the advantage strongly goes to the driver using cockpit view.

note, when I did use wheels view back then, I also changed the driver's position so that it was the same as sitting in the driver's seat rather than in the middle of the wheels. That way, if I ignored the fact that my wheels were visable, I could still feel like I was sitting correctly in the car. I am also an avid cockpit driver (now that I have the PC power) and don't like it any other way. I only argue this point because of everyone claiming that other views have such an advantage, and my opinion is obviously that they are at a big disadvantage when driving anything different than cockpit. That, and I'd never want to be forced to drive a certain way, therefore do not agree with this "hardcore mode" that springs up all the time. All other hardcore options that have to do with the way the races take place are great ideas, ie. fixed setups, fixed fuel, tire usage, etc.

Tweaker

17th May 2006, 01:32

I'm sorry, but I still completely disagree that there is an advantage to NOT using cockpit view. It is a DISadvantage. Big deal, you can see more of the track around you.I disagree with you too ;)

I use custom view, and it is using the full vertical view which gives a higher point of view for seeing apexes and looking over crests. In cockpit view for most cars, their is obstructions of view, but that isn't what makes me slower, it is the lower seating/viewing position that affects me... especially when on low graphics and a horizon or flat track could flicker. So seeing from a higher point of view is better, and there isn't "chance" when approaching corners, I can see things a whole lot clearer than that of someone using cockpit view. I can see OVER the South City barriers/walls, can see ahead of cars in front of me incase of accidents, can look into turns and judge my approach far better... overall, making me more consistent.

Ever since I used cockpit view in S1, I was good... but soon after I found myself using the high-custom-view which made me even better, and more consistent. Helps, and may or may not give me an advantage to you, but I sure would like to think it does.

Saying that you cannot feel what the car is doing is a bunch of crock!!! You feel and see just as many vibrations as you would in cockpit view. If you have your G force effects on, then that is what you are getting at. But turning those all to 0 is what you want to do no matter what view you choose. Note that my high-custom-view has the front body/hood showing... so I have a sense of where my sides are no matter what car I choose. And I can see beside me MUCH better with this custom view (@ 90 FOV).

Woz

17th May 2006, 01:40

Forcing cockpit mode has nothing to do with FOV realism. It's about sitting inside your car on one side at a reasonable distance from the windscreen, that's all it is for.
For those who say that other views can have no advantage, you are incorrect. If they had no advantage you wouldn't be using them. Driving from the roof allows a clearer view of the track ahead and the cars around you. Driving from the bumper removes all obstacles from your sight, ie: your dash and car. Driving from the middle of the car has an obvious advantage and is as unrealistic as the former two views mentioned.....

Go and sit in your car, in your normal driving position and look through the windscreen and focus on the road as you would when driving. You have to lower your eyes to look at the speedo (Unless you are a ricer in which case you have to raise you head to look over the top of the dash :))

While you are aware of the mirrors and speedo you have to move your head/eyes to look at them because of the way your eyes and vision work. While you have near 180deg peripheral vision your actual focused vision is over a very narrow range.

Unless you FORCE a set FOV as well as view mode then person in cockpit mode with a high FOV has view advantages over the player on bumper cam with a low FOV. In this situation the user with cockpit mode has the advantage over the bumper cam user.

So how is being allowed a high FOV in cockpit mode any less fair than using a different view?

Sorry Woz but it's a big mistake!!!
For me, Cockpit View is mandatory in an Hard Core Mode ...... but not FOV regulation.
You can use all FOVs you want, but ...... IN-CAR.
You prefere FOV 64° .... go with 64°!
I prefere another FOV ... ok, I use it .......... but IN-CAR!
I mean fixed ... the cockpit, not the view :nod:
Of course I can move my "seat" fore and back but not up and down

Papy were single minded in that they locked the FOV so EVERYONE had the same view. They also forced everyone to use the same graphics eye candy, smoke levels etc etc etc. There was NO visual advantage for ANYONE so it was FAIR TO EVERYONE because everyone was FORCED to use exactly the same settings.

If you want a level playing field then the Papy option is the only option. FOV along with all related graphics must be forced on people. Anything less has NO benefit and does not actually result in what you think it does.

Trouble is that if those that want forced cockpit view thought it would also FORCE them to drive at a set FOV that they had NO control over you will propably find support for the idea falls away quickly.

So you see, just forcing cockpit mode does NOT result in the fair playing field many feel it will bring. Those that can cope with high FOV have advantages over those on lower more realistic and natural FOV.

Again I ask the question....

How is a cockpit view with 90 FOV more realistic than a custom bonnet cam with 60 FOV?

I drive cockpit but could care less what you use. Fair clean and focused racing is ALL that matters. If someone has to use chase or bonnet cam to be able to race fair clean and focused then let them use it. We all gain in the end!

Gunn

17th May 2006, 01:40

I'm sorry, but I still completely disagree that there is an advantage to NOT using cockpit view. It is a DISadvantage.Ahhhh, now I understand what you are saying: People are deliberately disadvantaging themselves by using inferior views and therefore are making things more difficult for themselves rather than just use cockpit view. And here's silly old me thinking that that human nature drives improvement of one's situation for personal gain and competitiveness. All along everyone's actually trying to be slower. Well, that clears up my confusion about why there is some minor opposition to a hardcore mode.

Vaillant

17th May 2006, 01:49

... I'd never want to be forced to drive a certain way...
Me too :thumb: changing server you'll find thousand servers you like.
I dont understand why a little number of servers in HC-Mode "a_la_Papy" (no FOV fixed) ..... seems like a Danger for LFS community! :shrug:
... everyone was FORCED to use exactly the same settings

In NR2003? Nope for sure ..... One thing is HardCore Mode and another thing is Fixed setup.
Like in Netkar .... In-car fixed (FOV only fore-back) and, if you want, Fixed setup
... How is a cockpit view with 90 FOV more realistic than a custom bonnet cam with 60 FOV? ...
Dunno ..... in fact, I never said.
IMHO 60 FOV is a little irksome, but if one likes it ....

Woz

17th May 2006, 02:05

Me too :thumb: changing server you'll find thousand servers you like.
I dont understand why a little number of servers in HC-Mode "a_la_Papy" (no FOV fixed) ..... seems like a Danger for LFS community! :shrug:

Why do you keep asking for HC as per Papy but then want to drop bits from the papy version.

Papy HC = FIXED FOV and cockpit mode. Fixed smoke, sun glare etc etc. The idea of this mode is EVERYONE is in the same boat. There is a logic.

There is NO logic in forced cockpit without fixed FOV. But with fixed FOV there is less appeal to the mode.

Vaillant

17th May 2006, 02:22

... EVERYONE is in the same boat ...
:x What I dream ... from the beginning.

Woz

17th May 2006, 02:31

:x What I dream ... from the beginning.

But that required a FORCED FOV. which will be very unpopular.

IMHO 60 FOV is a little irksome, but if one likes it ....

Papy HC mode FIXED fov at about 60 BTW.

BTW due to view distortion you only really see corners as you would IRL when your FOV is about 50 and below. Just in case you did not realise this as well. The higher you go over that FOV the more the corner appears flatter than it should and the more fisheye the view becomes.

Now do you start to see the ramifications of what you ask?

Woz

17th May 2006, 07:38

Right, lets clear this up once and for all...

If you do NOT lock FOV with forced cockpit they their is no equal ground that you are after. But locked means you will upset many people who don't like the FOV forced on them.

To prove how stupid forcing cockpit mode without locked FOV is I have attached an image with 4 different views.

Top left, top right and bottom left are all cocckpit views with different FOV and by your logic ALL of them should be allowed in your version of hardcore mode.

The final image, bottom right, is a custom view with fov 65. This image is NOT hardcore by your definition and so will not be allowed in your version of hardcore mode. You will allow the cockpit mode with the widest FOV setting but not this.

PLEASE EXPLAIN THE LOGIC TO ME, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

If you can explain why the 4th image is not hardcore while the first 3 are I will instantly change my view and support forced cockpit view. The trouble is there is NO justification you can use as the final image is more realistic than the extreme FOV cockpit view.

tristancliffe

17th May 2006, 10:52

You're assuming that when a hardcore mode appears we'll have the same view options as now, aren't you. You have to look at the big picture.

I think it's highly likely that Scawen will implement a view system so that people can use hardcore mode with a view to their liking. Some will sit low and far back (as far as the car allows), others will sit higher and towards the front of the car. When the in car view is adjustable (without using the custom views) in terms of up/down, fore/aft and even left/right (but only by a much smaller amount), then we can all be safe and sound using a combination of realistic views and monitor usefulness.

As far as I can see the top left and the bottom right image you posted are identical, so where's the problem? One you made using an unhardcore mode custom camera, the other you make using a legit cockpit view.

I can almost guarantee that Scawen will take the views of those who feel they are disadvantaged in the cockpit into reasonable consideration, but also bear in mind that it'll be mostly restricted to some leagues. Don't like HC mode? Don't join that league then. It really is a simple, elegant and, I thought, fool proof solution to the HC problem. Why can't the two or three people in the thread defending it mentally (and without listening to the other people) take this is?

Woz

17th May 2006, 12:38

...As far as I can see the top left and the bottom right image you posted are identical, so where's the problem? One you made using an unhardcore mode custom camera, the other you make using a legit cockpit view.
Then you didnt actually look at the pictures at all then because they are nothing alike. Top left is cockpit mode at 40 FOV while the other is a custom view positioned on the dash at 60 FOV. Look again and you might see the difference.

You just dont get it do you.

Your single minded focus that the ONLY thing that is "realistic" and "hardcore" is cockpit mode is blinding your judgemeent. You don't even appear to care what FOV is used as long as its cockpit mode.

I put some images up that I know break all argument so you try to justify you argument saying other views might be allowed and I dont see the bigger picture. I could dig further and the your argument just gets weaker and weaker.

Should someone using a 301 platform and a real dash cluster be forced to see a second copy of the dash. Could you get a setup any more hardcore, yet unless they use cockpit view they can get lost. Using that setup I wouldnt want ANY CLUTTER on the screen.

So to allow REAL HARDCORE people you have to allow a mode without the car visible at all. Oh no, thats like wheels only mode so now LFS will have to check that the people using this view in hardcore mode have the right hardware or they are not hardcore enough to use that mode.

You see the Papy solution was fixed position, fixed FOV and graphics settings. EVERYONE had the same view but non of you on the side of forced cockpit want that because you might be forced to use an FOV you dont like.

We have a limit to what can be handled with simulation in the home environment so what does it matter if the other people can see the dashboard on their monitor or not. Most of us will be sat at a desk probably on an office chair looking at a PC screen with headphones on.

I can see the bigger picture with great clarity I just wonder if you can?

tristancliffe

17th May 2006, 14:03

They are remarkably alike, and I could drive with any of them. I can see the differences, but they are very slight in my opinion.

You just dont get it do you.

Your single minded focus that allowing ANY adjustment to the view in the 'realistic', 'hardcore' mode is blinding your judgement. You don't even appear to care about the end result, you just have an issue with the idea as a whole, so you go to any length to find flaws.

You put up some pictures to show how similar most of the views are, that do nothing to strengthen your argument, nor damage ours. You dig further, but whats the point, as you are making very little progress in this thread other than alienate people. No arguement get's stronger or weaker.

Indeed no, someone using the 301 platform will have similar preferences to normal players. They'd probably use a narrower FOV to make use of surround screens, which will tend to hind the in game dashboard, but it's not a problem. I can see my dashboard in LFS, and I even have the in game wheel turned on for added feedback. Maybe you wouldn't want clutter, but that's just personal preference, which should remain even in a hardcore mode.

I don't see this point you're making. Why would they need to have an external view? LFS provides the 'interior' of the cars, so an LX is nice and airy, and a UFR is less so. With your method EVERY player will need a custom 301 for EACH car. That's just silly, and you're going as far as is humanly possible to pick holes in the topic.

I am quite happy to use any FOV, but if you use a 'realistic' view (where realistic depends on the position and width of your monitor) then it's porbably that you can't see your mirrors or your dash. Now, in real life I have to move my eyes to see the dash and the mirrors. And guess what, I have to in LFS at 90FOV too. So whats the difference? Well, with your silly idea of restricing the view to 'realistic' FOV's people won't see their mirrors without pressing buttons, and thats even LESS realistic.

I can see the bigger picture, but your whining, ranting and raving proves to me that you don't really, you just have a really strong, inflexible opinion about something you haven't thought through.

See, posting like that is neither big, nor clever.

mrodgers

17th May 2006, 14:45

Woz is absolutely correct in his arguement. Everyone's main point of "hardcore mode" is forced cockpit view so that everyone sees the same and no one has the "advantage" of an exterior view/wheels view therefore the advantage of seeing more of the track and more around them. Bringing forced FOV into play is exactly the same as bringing forced cockpit into play. If you use a higher FOV so that you can see your mirrors and about half of beside you out the side windows, then you have the same advantage as everyone claims that exterior and wheels view have, and that is seeing more around their car and more of the track than someone who creates a realistic environment with view and perspective.

Vaillant

17th May 2006, 20:02

Sorry mates ... do you know the word COMPROMISE?
We are talking about SIMULATION.
No simulation will be ..... REAL, and so everyone can debate for years .... years .... years .... without solution.
I'd like (please) an HC Mode for LFS before I am ....... ninety :(
Thi is a view (fixed) that I consider a good compromise for all
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7610/ottimocompromesso1yb.gif (http://imageshack.us)
It's the "default view" when you start the first time LFS, with digital tachometer and mirror ... " left...ed " .... no more!
I tested with 3 different desktop monitors and 4 different laptop and
it's .... OK
Do you want to find the "perfect" solution? OK ...... i'll be ninety :schwitz: when you .... don't find solution!
While we debate about "realistic FOV" and other "philososophisms" ..... NR2003 players with their HC-MODE are playing great & fun championships :thumb:

Woz

17th May 2006, 20:19

I am quite happy to use any FOV, but if you use a 'realistic' view (where realistic depends on the position and width of your monitor) then it's porbably that you can't see your mirrors or your dash. Now, in real life I have to move my eyes to see the dash and the mirrors. And guess what, I have to in LFS at 90FOV too. So whats the difference? Well, with your silly idea of restricing the view to 'realistic' FOV's people won't see their mirrors without pressing buttons, and thats even LESS realistic.

I will try to make this non personal and I will not copy or mock you as you have just done......

But before I start I will point out that it does not matter that the dial cluster in my 301 example would be same dash on each car. I am 100% sure that if I were to give you such a setup you would not say "Please remove the dial clusters I want cockpit view instead. That would NOT happen and you know that so do not even try to defend that position.

Right, here is your point reduced as far as it will go, I just want to make sure I am correct in this. Please just say YES or NO for each of these points. They DO NOT need to be expanded on, JUST YES OR NO.

1) YOU are happy with cockpit view because that makes YOU feel as though LFS is more realistic sat at your desk at home while you PLAY LFS.
2) You are HAPPY for ME to use any FOV, even the 90+FOV that you use, which in reality is like looking through a fisheye viewport.
3) What you are NOT happy for me to use is ANY OTHER VIEW apart from cockpit even if it look more realistic that some of the cocckpit examples I gave.

Here is something to think on...

What if the 90 FOV you use was thought to be unrealistic. It does not match the view you see when you are sat in a car so YOU should not be allowed to use it. Forget that its available in the game and assume it will be removed because a fisheyee view on the world is not realistic?

LFS is now more realistic and hardcore so that should make you happy?

What if the hardcore mode you want is implemented BUT with a forced seat position AND FOV locked at 60 as per Papy? People alway quote NR2003 mode so that must be the one we want.

You now have forced 6FOV and using the papy hardcore mode you must be really happy now?

Finally lets try the monitor test that everyone else that wants forced cockpit mode is AFRAID to answer.....

What size is your monitor and how far are you sat away from it?

Now we have established that because of the limitations of your equipment you should be using an FOV of 40 and that LFS WILL ENFORCE THIS.

How hardcore is that, that should make you really happy. A locked view with 40FOV because that is all your equipment will allow.

Do you see where this all leads.

Monitor/desk/house does not equal car however you look at it. 90FOV is a way you use to make up for limitations and other use other techniques. Let them.

Woz

17th May 2006, 20:21

Sorry mates ... do you know the word COMPROMISE?
We are talking about SIMULATION...... :thumb:

You have hit the nail on the head..... COMPROMISE...

Why FORCE cockpit view in a simulation you play sat at a desk.... COMPROMISE

YAY and end to this :)

Vaillant

17th May 2006, 21:53

You have hit ......
You interest to ..... debate.
I don't.
It's not important what I've hit ... for me is important to know if
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7610/ottimocompromesso1yb.gif
is for you, for other readers and (mainly) for LFS Crew a GOOD FIXED VIEW for an (eventual) LFS HC-MODE: no possible HC-MODE ( imho the more interesting way to play a racesim) if you allow ... non-sense/ridiculous views.

Cue-Ball

17th May 2006, 22:04

All of this talk of restricted FOV is just stupid. I personally would have no problem with a forced cockpit view, but I would NOT want to see a forced FOV.

There are too many variables at play here, even discounting people's personal preference. What is a 60* FOV going to look like on a 16:9 display or, heaven forbid, a triple monitor setup? LIKE ASS! Forcing cockpit view is strict enough, but forcing field of view is just silly.

Even having a forced cockpit view would be a bad thing under certain setups. There are a few people who use real gauge clusters with their sims. For them, displaying the gauges on screen is worthless. They should have the choice of using a "dash cam" or something similar. Taking that away would just turn them away and stifle innovation.

Nobody seems to have a problem with disallowing pitting, disallowing car resets, monitoring tire usage, etc. The big point of contention is the on screen view. In the end, I'm sure the devs would never implement something so controversial so it's probably best to just forget about it ever happening.

Vaillant

17th May 2006, 22:17

... it's probably best to just forget about it ever happening.
I hope you are joking! :smileypul
What's the problem if you will find 5 servers in HC-MODE FIXED VIEW and 95.000.000.000.000.000........... servers like you prefere?
Why this .... "fear"?

tristancliffe

17th May 2006, 22:26

I only made it as personal as you did. If you didn't, then I didn't.

But before I start I will point out that it does not matter that the dial cluster in my 301 example would be same dash on each car. I am 100% sure that if I were to give you such a setup you would not say "Please remove the dial clusters I want cockpit view instead. That would NOT happen and you know that so do not even try to defend that position.Give someone in a third world country microsoft windows and he won't complain. Give a Linux user Windows and he will. Give me a 301 and I won't complain, give a 301 user certain 'views' and he might, as it's what he's used to.

Right, here is your point reduced as far as it will go, I just want to make sure I am correct in this. Please just say YES or NO for each of these points. They DO NOT need to be expanded on, JUST YES OR NO.

1) YOU are happy with cockpit view because that makes YOU feel as though LFS is more realistic sat at your desk at home while you PLAY LFS.
2) You are HAPPY for ME to use any FOV, even the 90+FOV that you use, which in reality is like looking through a fisheye viewport.
3) What you are NOT happy for me to use is ANY OTHER VIEW apart from cockpit even if it look more realistic that some of the cocckpit examples I gave.

You really need to work on your discussion skills. It's utterly pointless to try and reduce a point of view to one word answers. You will not go far in life with this style, but to ease your mind I shall give you one word answers.

YES
YES
YES
Here is something to think on...

What if the 90 FOV you use was thought to be unrealistic. It does not match the view you see when you are sat in a car so YOU should not be allowed to use it. Forget that its available in the game and assume it will be removed because a fisheyee view on the world is not realistic?
Indeed, as long as we are in the same boat, with the same basic restrictions then I'm happy. I use 90 as it makes me quicker, others use 40 as it makes them quicker. Compromise, which is the thing you've COMPLETELY lacked in ALL your posts, is as stated above the necessary thing.
LFS is now more realistic and hardcore so that should make you happy?YES

What if the hardcore mode you want is implemented BUT with a forced seat position AND FOV locked at 60 as per Papy? People alway quote NR2003 mode so that must be the one we want.Fine by me. Lock the FOV, or make it variable within limits, it's all beans to me. I'll still be quick, and slow people will still be slow, but we'll all have the same challenges which is the point.

You now have forced 6FOV and using the papy hardcore mode you must be really happy now?Yeah, doesn't bother me. As long as it's in cockpit (as I've NEVER driven a car from outside of the cockpit except when the car was 1ft long). Give me whatever. The difficulty is when you have a single 'mode' that covers all the cars. For me I use 90 degrees so I can see my mirrors and more peripherally without having to press buttons. But if everyone is in the same boat (car?), and we all know we have restricted vision or whatever then it's all cool with me. I don't think TrackIR is an advantage, so I'd be quite happy to allow people to use them too to look around a bit.

Finally lets try the monitor test that everyone else that wants forced cockpit mode is AFRAID to answer.....

What size is your monitor and how far are you sat away from it?

19" diagonally, and I'm about 34" away from the screen.

Now we have established that because of the limitations of your equipment you should be using an FOV of 40 and that LFS WILL ENFORCE THIS.

How hardcore is that, that should make you really happy. A locked view with 40FOV because that is all your equipment will allow.

Do you see where this all leads.
I see where you are leading it - to a pointless conclusion. When the fact sinks in that we are NOT playing real life, we are playing a representation of real life on a 2D screen, and as such certain settings HAVE to be unrealistic in order to play competatively. I use 90. Others use 40 despite all the problems. If we used LFS's default which is the best of both worlds then what does it matter. If we have 40 and I crash into you at EVERY corner you promise you'll never ever even once get even remotely angry? Or should we allow a bit more vision and accept the fisheye a bit.

Monitor/desk/house does not equal car however you look at it. 90FOV is a way you use to make up for limitations and other use other techniques. Let them.

Indeed let them. As long as the viewpoint is roughly where a real persons eyes would be, i.e. IN the car, on the correct side, without the wheels being visible and WITH a-pillars etc getting in the way, then I'm happy. 40, 50, 90 FOV's don't bother me, I will still overtake you in the same way. Until the day Alonso climbs out of his car at 200mph, crawls down a bendy stick 20ft behind his car or sits on the front wing to drive then hardcore mode HAS to be cockpit view. There is no other way. Within vague limitations of this I'm not that fussy about what FOV's people have as that just comes down to personal preference - do you want distorted views but more visibility or more realistic views but the constraints of a monitor. That in itself shouldn't be forced, and I don't believe anyone is suggesting it should be.

Cue-Ball

17th May 2006, 22:41

I hope you are joking! :smileypul
What's the problem if you will find 5 servers in HC-MODE FIXED VIEW and 95.000.000.000.000.000........... servers like you prefere?
Why this .... "fear"?No, I'm not joking.

There are not that many servers (at least for people in the U.S.A.), so restricting even a small portion of them would really lower the number of servers available for people like me to join.

Like I said, I have no problem with being forced into cockpit mode (I use that anyway), but I would have a BIG problem with being forced to use, say, 60* field of view. Especially if I'm running a widescreen, multimonitor view. A person using three monitors running 120* is the same as a person using one monitor running 40*. If you try to force ANY field of view setting, one of those two people is going to get screwed.

Vaillant

17th May 2006, 23:02

.....
Be happy with these probs!!!!!!
I'm poor boy :shy: with a single poor monitor

Woz

17th May 2006, 23:22

Like I said, I have no problem with being forced into cockpit mode (I use that anyway), but I would have a BIG problem with being forced to use, say, 60* field of view. Especially if I'm running a widescreen, multimonitor view. A person using three monitors running 120* is the same as a person using one monitor running 40*. If you try to force ANY field of view setting, one of those two people is going to get screwed.

At present, if you didnt know, LFS will automatically adjusts for monitor aspect ratio so that you can set an FOV of 60 and if you use 3 monitors you will get the view rendered at the correct FOV but extended to fill the 3 screens.

FOV is just the focal length of the lens being used to render the image, the screen rendered to is what controls the width and height of the image.

There is a setting for this in options call something like screen width adjusted FOV or something similar. So if you have 3 screens then you can run realistic FOV and still view correctly. In fact Scawen uses a 3 monitor system from posts he has made on this forum. So NO forced FOV is not an issue at all in the situation you state and should not be used as an argument against locked FOV because it is not valid.

You really need to work on your discussion skills. It's utterly pointless to try and reduce a point of view to one word answers. You will not go far in life with this style, but to ease your mind I shall give you one word answers.

YES
YES
YES
Indeed, as long as we are in the same boat, with the same basic restrictions then I'm happy. I use 90 as it makes me quicker, others use 40 as it makes them quicker. Compromise, which is the thing you've COMPLETELY lacked in ALL your posts, is as stated above the necessary thing.
YES

But the point was they are all things that make YOU happy, even at the expense of others that might be effected by your wishes. It was not to help my argument but to highlight this to you.

I see where you are leading it - to a pointless conclusion. When the fact sinks in that we are NOT playing real life, we are playing a representation of real life on a 2D screen, and as such certain settings HAVE to be unrealistic in order to play competatively. I use 90. Others use 40 despite all the problems. If we used LFS's default which is the best of both worlds then what does it matter. If we have 40 and I crash into you at EVERY corner you promise you'll never ever even once get even remotely angry? Or should we allow a bit more vision and accept the fisheye a bit.

Finally you are starting to see. Read your quote again, can you see how the arguments you put up are valid from my perspective as well. In fact I think you realised this while you were typing it from the "I see where you are leading it" :)

The Papy solution was fixed view and fixed FOV of about 60. If you did'nt like it tough because everyone was in the same boat graphics wise. This is the ONLY way to go if you force a given view. Not a half baked you must use this view BUT can tweak and change it as you wish because then it serves no purpose. If its forced to be realistic then 90FOV should NOT be allowed because it is NOT realistic.

A cockpit with 90FOV is no less realistic than a bonnet cam at 60FOV as my image post earlier highlighted.

LFS, for 99.9999% of us is a simulation that you run on a home PC sat at a desk. All of us use different techniques to help feel more involved with the simulation and we are all different.

Some people out there don't even use a DFP, three peddles and an h-shifter, can you imagine that. They have to configure their low lock wheel response so its flatter in the middle to cope with the lack of lock. Should we say these control challenged people can only drive cars that their wheel lock can simulate so they don't have an unfair advantage when trying to catch oversteer due to the geared steering rate they have over those of us using more realistic controllers?

We all try to make up for these limitations in our own way. Some, myself included, use cockpit mode. Some use high FOV even though it distorts the image and causes track corners to appear flatter than they actually are because they can see more. Other use custom bonnet cams or other views that allow them to be safe on the track.

In the end does it really matter to you that much that a person you races might use a different view than you, when you admit to using 90FOV to make up for view limitations, when in the end we are all after the same thing.......

Good hard racing online with people that want a serious race. This is what most people want with hardcore mode.

SKurjz

17th May 2006, 23:55

Forced cockpit
Forced FOV

All fine with me.... In the old days you wouldn't have any FOV options.... did people refuse to buy racing sims because of it?

All I do with any sim these days is adjust the seat as hi as it will go, and adjust the distance from the dash to where it is comfortable (sometimes back sometimes forward) and thats it.

GTL and LFS are the first mp racing sims I've ever run on a 19" CRT, I ran GPL, GTR2002 etc on 17" or less... I don't see the problem.

Mebbe its just a "My way is the right way, and your way is wrong...."

Not everyone will be happy, but it seems the minority sure wants to be vocal +)

Usually in prime time in the US there are 10 times as many LFS servers as players (mebbe even more than that) a hardcore server would NOT reduce the number of available servers, as there are 200 other servers you can't race on because of the lack of anyone to race with!! Ya never know... you might find that the players that are online actually congregate on a HC server because they prefer it, and you might get used to it... heaven forbid.

Vaillant

18th May 2006, 00:40

... LFS, for 99.9999% of us is a simulation that you run on a home PC sat at a desk. All of us use different techniques to help feel more involved with the simulation and we are all different ...

Wow!! Finally no more "Philosophy"!!!!

You have hit the nail on the head ..... and so .....

.. Is it really the biggest trouble in the world if 99.9999% of LFS

servers are totally free and 0.0001% of LFS servers are in HC-

MODE?

Woz

18th May 2006, 03:07

Wow!! Finally no more "Philosophy"!!!!

You have hit the nail on the head ..... and so .....

.. Is it really the biggest trouble in the world if 99.9999% of LFS

servers are totally free and 0.0001% of LFS servers are in HC-

MODE?

That is NOT what I said and you know it.

LFS, for 99.9999% of us is a simulation that you run on a home PC sat at a desk. All of us use different techniques to help feel more involved with the simulation and we are all different.

That is VERY different to only 0.0001% of people want HC mode. I said that for most we accept we are sat at a desk and make compromises to make up for that fact to allow us to feel more involved in the simulation.

-----------------------------

You can ALL carry on mis-reading, ignoring and taking what I say out of context to try to justify and force YOUR views on people because YOU think its realistic. You DO NOT care if other people find other views realistic because that DOES NOT fit with YOUR view on what is realistic.

You care that a view mode might give someone an advantage yet you do not care if a FOV will do the same or that people are using a wheel with 300deg lock in a tintop that has 720deg lock. They can catch oversteer easier because they dont have to move the wheel the right distance, how is that realistic?

I have said it before and say it again.........

YOU are sat at a desk in your HOUSE using plastic controllers. You are NOT in a car and it does not matter if you can see an A piller or not because you ARE looking at a PC monitor that is giving a 2D representation of a 3D environment through a lens that in most cases gives a distorted view on the world compared to what you would see through your eyes while sat in a car.

NOTHING YOU CAN SAY WILL CHANGE THAT FACT, and no game mode view will change it either.

The real funny part is that when forced FOV is raised then people come in saying don't lock FOV yet they support the idea of cockpit mode forced on people. The only reason people don't care if cockpit mode is forced is because they use cockpit mode so it does not effect them. But say lock FOV as well and then it effects them so they are interested. Can none of you see a problem with this. Its alway a case of do what you want as long as I am not effected.

Am I the only person that uses cockpit mode that understands that some people might prefer a different view on the world and that as long as they race well and clean I can have a good race?

There is nothing else I can say that wont be taken out of context or that will NOT fall on deaf ears. Not one of you is even willing to see that there are situations where forcing a view is not great but the rest of HC mode is still valid. You are all focused on this ONE thing above ANYTHING ELSE.

Flame away all you feel, I am sure most people will at least see the point I am trying to get across and understand it. The rest of you don't even care what I say because it effects what YOU think is right.

mrodgers

18th May 2006, 03:29

quote=Woz "The real funny part is that when forced FOV is raised then people come in saying don't lock FOV yet they support the idea of cockpit mode forced on people. The only reason people don't care if cockpit mode is forced is because they use cockpit mode so it does not effect them. But say lock FOV as well and then it effects them so they are interested. Can none of you see a problem with this. Its alway a case of do what you want as long as I am not effected.

Am I the only person that uses cockpit mode that understands that some people might prefer a different view on the world and that as long as they race well and clean I can have a good race?"
[/quote]

I just wanted to highlight woz's text here as this is the entire arguement that has been going on for days and pages now. I've said the same and I've agreed with him. This just needed highlighted.

You force an FOV that I don't use, then I can't race you. You force a cockpit view that JimboBobbi can't use, then you'll never race him. Forced anything alienates other's in the community so that they cannot race with the majority or with the "elite" because they feel they are better because they use cockpit view. I'm not argueing to force FOV, I'm just used it as an example way back in post #8 about the forced cockpit view. I don't want either forced on anyone, even though I use cockpit view. I think woz is saying the same thing. It's not that he wants a forced FOV, it's being used as an example and it is working. You say force cockpit and that's A-OK, but when someone says "then force FOV as well", then you're all bent outta shape over it.

We need stuff that affects the racing forced, ie, the pitstops, tire and fuel usage, etc. as well as joining midrace, "teleporting" to pits, and restarts. Those are the points that affect the racing, not how you look at the stinkin game.

tristancliffe

18th May 2006, 09:42

WOZ - get off your high horse, come back down to ground level, and see the world as it really it. The point of hardcore mode is primarily to get rid some of the aids and some of the silly viws. Why can't you accept that a lot of people want it for league racing. I don't want F9/10 overlays, I want visible tyre conditions. I'd ideally want voice recognition for the setup changes but thats not feasable so I am happy to accept the F11/12 overlay (though a tweak or two might be nice). I want everyone to drive from within the car, so that they can't see the wheels (except the tops of them in open wheelers) and their view gets onbstructed by a-pillars. But I don't really care what FOV as long as it's within sensible limits (and I trust Scavier and the Betatesters to define that).

I don't give a monkeys if the FOV isn't ultra realistic. I don't give a rats arse if steering lock doesn't match my wheel. There are some concessions to realism you HAVE to make, either due to technology, computing power, development times or money. But you CANNOT see to differentiate between the sensible suggestions and silly overexcited ones.

From now on you are on my ignore list. In 3 years of LFSing only you and Dethred have ever made it onto an ignore list, and until you chill out and sort your thoughts out I don't want to listen to your random drivvel. Thanks, bye.

Darkone55

18th May 2006, 10:26

I agree with hardcore mode. Would be really cool in leagues. But I don't agree about the forced cockpit. Then just make it without that 'only 2wheels on the screen'-thing. But I'd like it if I could move the cam a bit where I want it. In a real car you only concentrate on the road. You don't see a bit of the dashboard and the wheel. A computerscreen is too small to have it all on it. That's why I set the cam just behind the wheel. At the height of the windscreen.

MyBoss

18th May 2006, 14:23

From now on you are on my ignore list. In 3 years of LFSing only you and Dethred have ever made it onto an ignore list, and until you chill out and sort your thoughts out I don't want to listen to your random drivvel. Thanks, bye.

It shure helps the discussion to block the guy you don't agree with.

If I understand your post correct you just want a cockpit mode so you can get rid of those driving with views high above their car, or with wheels view.

If so, I don't see the point in forced cockpit, why not just forced inside of the car instead, you can put your view anywhere aslong its inside the car.

tristancliffe

18th May 2006, 14:25

Then people will put it in the middle, or somewhere equally unrealistic. I'm all for allowing adjustments to fit peoples preferences, just within certain boundaries.

And I didn't add him because I disagree with him, I ignore him because he's throwing his toys about as though he's just been stabbed, just because some people don't agree with him. I don't want or need to read that immaturity.

Gunn

18th May 2006, 15:26

Some Potentially Useful Hardcore Mode Server-Side Options

Forced Cockpit. Allowing head-tilt, seat adjustment and FOV adjustment.
Forced manual gearbox.
No artificial driving aids including:
No auto-clutch.
No auto-throttle blip or cut.
Set Max Fuel Levels.
Set Min Pit Stops.
Set maximum number of tyres available per car.
Blue Light at end of pit lane.
Yellow flag penalties.
"Live" blend line on pit exit with penalty for any breach.
Closed server after qualifying ends (cannot connect to server while race in progress).
No telepitting during race.
No auto-reset of car.
Reduced chat options. (3 F-Keys only, for example)
Fixed pit boxes for each car (must stop in your pit box only).
Longer repair time in pit.
Allow 2-car team entries where two drivers must share the same pitbox.

... and much more.

I really hope for a detailed and feature-packed hardcore mode that shapes online public racing and reduces the number of private servers in the list. This would make Live For Speed bigger than ten bears.

Cue-Ball

18th May 2006, 15:42

Some Potentially Useful Hardcore Mode Server-Side Options

Reduced chat options. (3 F-Keys only, for example)
What's the purpose of reducing the chat options?

Gunn

18th May 2006, 15:50

What's the purpose of reducing the chat options?To minimise discussion during a race.

Cue-Ball

18th May 2006, 15:55

To minimise discussion during a race.Okay. And why would you want to do that?

Pablo.CZ

18th May 2006, 16:16

Some Potentially Useful Hardcore Mode Server-Side Options
..
+1
no F9 & F10 except pits
early starts & penalties
dont allow major setup changes between events (quali-race)
no low(hi)-rev diod in stock cars
maybe allow reset car after 10s
etc..

mrodgers

18th May 2006, 17:51

Okay. And why would you want to do that?
Same question, not about reducing chat, but why limit to 3.... Ah! I just got it :D . Chat binds for neccessary chat as "pit in" "pit out" etc. Yeah, I was going to say no chat what-so-ever, but the pit announcements may be needed.

Cue-Ball

18th May 2006, 18:17

Woz

18th May 2006, 19:39

Some Potentially Useful Hardcore Mode Server-Side Options

.....
Forced manual gearbox.
No artificial driving aids including:
.....
No auto-throttle blip or cut.
Set Max Fuel Levels.
Set Min Pit Stops.
Set maximum number of tyres available per car.
Blue Light at end of pit lane.
Yellow flag penalties.
"Live" blend line on pit exit with penalty for any breach.
....
No telepitting during race.
No auto-reset of car.
Reduced chat options. (3 F-Keys only, for example)
Fixed pit boxes for each car (must stop in your pit box only).
Longer repair time in pit.
Allow 2-car team entries where two drivers must share the same pitbox.

... and much more.

I really hope for a detailed and feature-packed hardcore mode that shapes online public racing and reduces the number of private servers in the list. This would make Live For Speed bigger than ten bears.

The list above is what we are ALL AFTER

A few questions

Why no auto clutch? Forcing people with 2 peddles to use a button on the wheel for clutch it more real than auto clutch. Is this one really needed?

On closed server after qualifying ends. Would this not be better, forced spectate on join. You can join the NEXT race but remain in spectate mode until it starts. Allows people to get on server reeady.

Does no aids allow TC on cares with it fitted?

Woz

18th May 2006, 20:05

YOU are sat at a desk in your HOUSE using plastic controllers. You are NOT in a car and it does not matter if you can see an A piller or not because you ARE looking at a PC monitor that is giving a 2D representation of a 3D environment through a lens that in most cases gives a distorted view on the world compared to what you would see through your eyes while sat in a car. And you agree

I don't give a monkeys if the FOV isn't ultra realistic. I don't give a rats arse if steering lock doesn't match my wheel. There are some concessions to realism you HAVE to make, either due to technology, computing power, development times or money. BUT

1) YOU are happy with cockpit view because that makes YOU feel as though LFS is more realistic sat at your desk at home while you PLAY LFS. Yes 2) You are HAPPY for ME to use any FOV, even the 90+FOV that you use, which in reality is like looking through a fisheye viewport. Yes 3) What you are NOT happy for me to use is ANY OTHER VIEW apart from cockpit even if it look more realistic that some of the cockpit examples I gave. Yes
If I understand your post correct you just want a cockpit mode so you can get rid of those driving with views high above their car, or with wheels view.

If so, I don't see the point in forced cockpit, why not just forced inside of the car instead, you can put your view anywhere aslong its inside the car.

Then people will put it in the middle, or somewhere equally unrealistic. I'm all for allowing adjustments to fit peoples preferences, just within certain boundaries.

But 90 FOV is equally unrealistic is it NOT? Please tell me how they are different? I REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS ONE THING.

You see

I don't give a monkeys if the FOV isn't ultra realistic. I don't give a rats arse if steering lock doesn't match my wheel. There are some concessions to realism you HAVE to make, either due to technology, computing power, development times or money.

What about Darkone55, he likes his view similar to the 4th in my supplied images. This is NOT in a real driving position BUT is located on the dash, much like the 4th image I supplied.

I agree with hardcore mode. Would be really cool in leagues. But I don't agree about the forced cockpit. Then just make it without that 'only 2wheels on the screen'-thing. But I'd like it if I could move the cam a bit where I want it. In a real car you only concentrate on the road. You don't see a bit of the dashboard and the wheel. A computerscreen is too small to have it all on it. That's why I set the cam just behind the wheel. At the height of the windscreen.
He sound like someone who would be a welcome addition to a hardcore server, or at least he does to me BUT you would exclude him. Even though his concessions to realism is how he views the game.

TBH, Fine get rid of wheels and chase mode and limited to cockpit or a custom view, BUT allow centre of the car or on the bonnet etc etc etc.

They are JUST concessions to realism WE HAVE to make!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sinbad

18th May 2006, 20:20

allow centre of the car or on the bonnet etc etc etc.

Why allow a central view? I agree with a lot that you have said, about FOV realism, about cockpit intrusion into the fov if you use default cockpit view, but I just cannot think of a reason for allowing a camera to be placed in the centre of the car when the driver is actually sat to one side or the other. To save me typing again:

A post I made not too long ago on this topic. (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=123877#post123877)

Woz

18th May 2006, 21:40

Why allow a central view? I agree with a lot that you have said, about FOV realism, about cockpit intrusion into the fov if you use default cockpit view, but I just cannot think of a reason for allowing a camera to be placed in the centre of the car when the driver is actually sat to one side or the other. To save me typing again:

A post I made not too long ago on this topic.

Yep, all good points and valid.

I guess my real point is that if 90+ FOV can be thought of as OK for a hardcore mode, is a central view in the car with a FOV of 60 really any worse. Its just someones attempt to deal with the limitations we all face. As it putting the view origin above the steering wheel or any other similar view.

If we really are going to FORCE a given view then make it a real forced view, the SAME view and SAME FOV AND graphics options such as smoke etc should be forced on everybody so everyone is racing on equal grounds view wise, as per Papy. Only allow limited seat position changes and that is all.

But then the question becomes which FOV. I have played a LOT with FOV over the last couple of days and I have found one thing out. LFS really does have that sense of speed its just that as you increase the FOV you start to remove it. Try driving a lap on FOV40 and see what I mean. Everything happens so very much much faster.

So if people are serious about locked views REALLY lock it, not this half arsed attempt to keep most people happy, or just drop it and lets get the real thing we are REALLY after sorted.

The race rules enforcement!

As soon as you start to allow other configurations and stop others the reasons come down to personal as to what should be allowed and that is where the problems start. So if people really want locked then LOCK it but really lock it.

Darkone55

18th May 2006, 21:56

Uhm, well, Woz you didn't understand me right. I don't think it's real to have the cam in the center while the driver is on one side of the car. But my screen is just too small to have a whole cockpit on it.

But I wouldn't really care about the abilities of the camera in a hardcore mode. People use whatever they like, I try to get it a bit real. But if someone uses his own view, it doesn't affect realism for the others... Does it?

Woz

18th May 2006, 22:09

Gunn

18th May 2006, 22:45

I think that turning off chat is a horrible idea, and that "pit in" and "pit out" messages are unnecessary. Without chat, how would racers communicate with each other or with the server admin? How does turning off the chat feature make the game better?Racers don't communicate with each other during a race. Why would they when they can't in real life?
What would you have to chat about to an admin (or anybody) while contesting a race?
The idea of a hardcore mode is to promote more serious and realistic racing. One of the most annoying aspects of visiting a public server is all those racers who think that LFS should be called MSN. Less talk, more racing.

tristancliffe

18th May 2006, 22:52

Dammit, my curiosity got the better of me.

I've NEVER said 90 degrees is realistic NOR should it be in the range of allowed FOV's - for me it gives a compormise between proportion and width of view. Also I think you'll find that as you INCREASE the FOV the sense of speed gets higher ;)

Why force one particualar FOV though - why not allow, say, 50 to 80 with a certain range of seating positions to, so that within the confines of that we can find what we are most comfortable with. Why isn't that allowed. Hell, we're driving fecking cars on a computer, it isn't real.

I wish I hadn't read your posts, as now I'm annoyed again. Hopefully tomorrow you can contribute something useful to the thread, rather than picking holes in everyone elses ideas, or trying to make your own version of a problem from three or more other solutions.

It's obvious to me that you don't have the dedication, speed, or ability to cope with a 'hardcore' mode, so just drop it. Race in your five lap sprints for the rest of your days with nice cosy tyre temp overlays and bonnet cams.

It DOES if certain people here get their way in that unless you use cockpit mode you would NOT be allowed on a hardcore server.
How can anything other than a cockpit view be realistic (within the confines of the computer situation)? Why do you want external views?

Gunn

18th May 2006, 22:59

It DOES if certain people here get their way in that unless you use cockpit mode you would NOT be allowed on a hardcore server.This is not correct and is not what people have been talking about in this topic. We are discussing options. Options are choices so why all the doom and gloom from you? Why try to make out that a hardcore mode will stop somebody from playing? Currently I am alienated from all servers using FWD cars, boo hoo for me I'll get over it. It is my choice to visit the server or not based on its settings and content. If an admin from a hardcore server wishes to enable the option of forced cockpit then people who like those settings will be attrracted to that server and those who don't will choose a different server. Simple really. What if full manual clutch were enabled? Will we see some people crying that they don't have a third pedal and don't like to use a button clutch? What about those who aren't very skilled yet at manual throttle blipping, will they complain that they can't join a hardcore server?

Choices and options are what we have been discussing. Flexibility for server admins to customize server-side options to promote more accurate or serious racing. There are many dedicated sim racers in our community who would like the racing itself to step up a notch, not everyone plays for "fun".
It is quite likely that on a hardcore server we might find public racing that you can rely upon to be more than just a social gathering of drop-ins and friendly faces.

Cue-Ball

18th May 2006, 23:06

Racers don't communicate with each other during a race. Why would they when they can't in real life?That's right. They communicate with their pits, who then communicate with the other team drivers. Until LFS implements a live pit crew then we need to be able to chat. When I can have a friend or two connect, I can talk to them and tell them what I want done (change the rear tires, tighten the rear ARB, gimme a splash of fuel) when i pull into the pits, and they can make it happen, then you'll have a case. Until then, you don't.
What would you have to chat about to an admin (or anybody) while contesting a race?Why does it matter what I want to discuss? There's already a way for drivers to disable on screen messages. If they don't want to see what I have to say, they don't have to. But making it impossible for me to talk to other drivers, talk to the server admin, discuss the next track/car combo, etc. is just ridiculous.
The idea of a hardcore mode is to promote more serious and realistic racing. One of the most annoying aspects of visiting a public server is all those racers who think that LFS should be called MSN. Less talk, more racing.How does preventing people from talking to one another improve the experience? I can only assume that the chatting is causing problems, and is not the actual problem since it doesn't directly affect you and since it can be turned off. So what is the ACTUAL problem you're trying to resolve by disabling chatting?

Perhaps you would be happier just racing against the AI? No talking, no field of view problems, no cheating....no human interaction. :shrug:

Gunn

18th May 2006, 23:25

If people can't actually read and digest what other people have posted then they shouldn't reply at all.

Viper93

19th May 2006, 00:07

If people can't actually read and digest what other people have posted then they shouldn't reply at all.

well said :clapclap:

remove all messenging I say. If I went to a hardcore server thats how I would like it, if you really want to chat then get teamspeak, thats basically how drivers talk to their team anyways.

I don't see any racers in real life whipping out their trusty keyboard while doing 160 down the backstrait.

Choices and options are what we have been discussing. Flexibility for server admins to customize server-side options to promote more accurate or serious racing. There are many dedicated sim racers in our community who would like the racing itself to step up a notch, not everyone plays for "fun".
It is quite likely that on a hardcore server we might find public racing that you can rely upon to be more than just a social gathering of drop-ins and friendly faces.

I agree with Gunn here too, there are people out there that do not play for just the fun factor. There are people out there who want to "step it up a notch" I would love this idea of blocking people that use views other than cockpit, ect like Gunn has been saying with these options available to change server side.

If you are saying that it isn't fair that you restrict people like that then how can you call it a hardcore server? It would be a normal server with a name of "hardcore" which means nothing. I do not think there would be many servers like this honestly but I would love to be able to have the option to have these types of servers. Knowing that every other driver has to drive under the same conditions "no steering help, throttle blip, ect.

I also think that this will expand LFS even more than it is now, just like Gunn said about the private servers. These servers taking the, say, top 10% of the LFS drivers and put them on a server that most people would not like to race on unless they were looking for the "ultimate" competition. There may be a slight drop in numbers on a regular server after the initial novelty wore off, but I feel that the peopel that are racing for fun on the normal servers will be slightly more tolerant of any "noobs" that in turn the noob will want to race more, his confidence increased because people are not degrading him, will become a perminent member of the LFS community.

This is an offshoot but here I go... I get slightly irriated at people when they get on noobs for messing up, sure they might have deserved it, but on the other hand they probably honestly didn't know they were in the wrong, and even were probably in the right but were blamed anyways. People that do this are just killing off the life flow that LFS needs to sustain what this community has become. I have been sim racing for years and I have never felt, or seen anything like this. I do not want it to go away. VRGT championship did this with Viper Racing, but they lacked huge numbers, and it was not to the degree this is.

Vaillant

19th May 2006, 00:18

Some Potentially Useful Hardcore Mode Server-Side Options

Forced Cockpit. Allowing head-tilt, seat adjustment and FOV adjustment.
Forced manual gearbox.
No artificial driving aids including:
No auto-clutch.
No auto-throttle blip or cut.
Set Max Fuel Levels.
Set Min Pit Stops.
Set maximum number of tyres available per car.
Blue Light at end of pit lane.
Yellow flag penalties.
"Live" blend line on pit exit with penalty for any breach.
Closed server after qualifying ends (cannot connect to server while race in progress).
No telepitting during race.
No auto-reset of car.
Reduced chat options. (3 F-Keys only, for example)
Fixed pit boxes for each car (must stop in your pit box only).
Longer repair time in pit.
Allow 2-car team entries where two drivers must share the same pitbox.

...

- Random damages ( engine, springs, brakes, tyres ...... )
- Wind screen getting dirty

Woz

19th May 2006, 01:37

Right, this has reached a point where trist and I have to step back a little. Yes I probably pushed too hard to make this point but then we all know what forums are like and how easy it can be to get really involved in a thread. Hence this post to try and bring back some normality. Hope this can help calm it a little?

Please take the time to read fully if you want to respond to this post, if not ignore and move on. I dont want a battle again and will not attack people that look like they have read it.

While it does not appear it trist and I actually agree on many things in hardcore mode. The absolute thing for HC mode is the race rules and control over when people join, when they can enter the track and how a race is run. Jump to pits and all the other sorts of things that people like Gunn raised are the key. This will add so much to LFS and is a MUST.

The point I am trying to get across over locked views is that there are differences in degree of realism and also in what people think is realistic. We probably all agree views like chase and wheels are just NOT realistic and I am happy for them to go. What I do care about is that on the track people drive properly, in control and keep some idea of where people are around them and give space when race rules say they should. This is what makes for fair races.

The reason I raise the FOV issue and the Papy solution where view, FOV and visual effects are locked is that this solution, if you must lock a view, has massive appeal and fairness to it. It means nobody can argue, everyone knows that everyone has the same experience and view and view limitations.

If we must force a view in HC mode then isn't that the best option?

When you start to blur the lines then it becomes far far less black and white and that is where the problem starts. Trist and many others who play LFS use 90+FOV because it solves a problem of seeing what is around you that you don't get in lower FOV settings. But higher FOVs also make everything happen a little slower due to view distortions. This is well known in the FPS world where many people run 90-120 fov for online play. Run a lap at FOV90 and then run a lap at FOV50 and you will see what I mean. FOV50 and below give the sense of speed that many ay is missing in LFS, everything happens VERY FAST.

Again, this is also fine by me and no issue at all. It is just making up for limitations in setup etc. There are others views though that are no less valid when you start to allow this level of customisation of perspective and the like. Such as over the steering wheel or in the center of the car. These allow you to have FOV setting while giving you a view that combats some issue you had trying to get similar in cockpit mode.

Take the over the steering wheel view. In my images posted earlier there were 2 that look very similar but are not. One is cockpit at FOV40 and the other is custom and over the wheel at FOV60. Try both for a lap and you will instantly see the point I am trying to make. The cockpit FOV40 is not a view you could race with online, it would be impossible.

For the centre of the car view try the following. Configure a cockpit view with 90FOV and drive a lap. Now set a custom view to be in same pos as cockpit, move it across to the centre of car and set 90FOV. Is the cockpit version any more or less realistic?

This is the point I am trying to make. If you allow changes and tweaks to make up for setup limitations then it is not black and white. They all just help solve limitations in setups for people. They are not any more or any less realistic than the others, just a little different.

I would love that we ALL had 3 screen setups where we could force cockpit view with realistic FOV settings and everyone would be happy but that is not the case.

In the end I think many like myself probably want a replacement for CRC (Clean Racing Club for newer members) and HC mode is ideal for this from what I can see. Even Fordman is getting p***ed off and that is a rare sight to see him bitch about wreckers on the forum.

Hopefully that leaves it on a better note than last time. Take it as you want and I hope people try the FOV and view settings I mention to understand what I am trying to say. If you then want to ignore the ideas feel free.

I will not mention view forcing again!

Tyrion

19th May 2006, 01:55

Wow, quite the heated debate! :)

But higher FOVs also make everything happen a little slower due to view distortions. This is well known in the FPS world where many people run 90-120 fov for online play. Run a lap at FOV90 and then run a lap at FOV50 and you will see what I mean. FOV50 and below give the sense of speed that many ay is missing in LFS, everything happens VERY FAST.

Are you sure that's what you mean? My opinion would be that the exact opposite is true.I have never tried, but I would imagine that a fov lower than 50 would feel like slowmotion.

Anyway, having seen the outcome, I won't say a word about locked fov's, and I'll leave it to more capable hands to comment on your post.Just stumbled over what you said about the sense of speed :)

Viper93

19th May 2006, 01:59

Woz, another thing thats difficult on forums to to "hear" how people say things, I get that alot, someone will take something someone else says the wrong way. Least I do that alot.

I like the idea of view forcing, I have tried to run LFS on different view settings before and noticed what you are talking about. I always keep it on 90, seems natural at about there I guess. I never really knew that people would expand the views to "slow" the game down though. Maybe another solution for this is to just limit the game period to 90 or less across the board? There is no way in a road car you can see both left and right side view mirrors at the same time.

Woz

19th May 2006, 02:01

Wow, quite the heated debate! :)
Are you sure that's what you mean? My opinion would be that the exact opposite is true.I have never tried, but I would imagine that a fov lower than 50 would feel like slowmotion.

Anyway, having seen the outcome, I won't say a word about locked fov's, and I'll leave it to more capable hands to comment on your post.Just stumbled over what you said about the sense of speed :)

Feel free to try it. FOV40 on FE1 will blow you away at the sense of speed you feel.

Viper93

19th May 2006, 02:15

I took your advice WoZ, I ran with the different field of views again, I get the feeling going forward is the same "speed" it's just things happen slower around you with the higher field of view because of the stretched pixels, and you can see alot more. Maybe the FoV just needs to be adjusted down so you cannot do this?

With the smaller field of view what you see is very limited and it does feel faster because your only seeing whats directly in front of your car. I have a 19inch monitor, this might have something to do with FoV setting too a bit because something that someone cannot see well on a smaller monitor could be seen on mine (I cannot test this, do not have a smaller monitor available)

(maybe next time I will follow Gunn's advice and digest more info before making a post =P)

Gunn

19th May 2006, 02:49

A FOV debate has no bearing on whether or not a forced cockpit option is relevant or available in hardcore mode. It is a seperate circular debate with no solution. People say that a realistic FOV is impossible on a PC monitor. If that is true then why argue about something that can't ever be as you want it?

A forced cockpit view addresses the issue where a driver might be viewing from an unrealistic seating position. That is the purpose. It's not some quest for ultimate visual realism but a tool to minimise ultimate unrealism of an improbable seating position. The idea isn't to force a person to see what I see, it simply puts every racer literally in the driver's seat. No matter what FOV you may prefer, forced cockpit view puts everyone in a car, or at least that would be the goal. It is an obvious inclusion in any hardcore mode proposal, in my opinion.

mrodgers

19th May 2006, 02:50

Racers don't communicate with each other during a race. Why would they when they can't in real life?
What would you have to chat about to an admin (or anybody) while contesting a race?
I agree with all that. I assume because you said limit F-key chat to 3 keys, you are talking about using for "pit-in", "pit-out", etc. right? Because IRL, racers would use hand signals for this on the track and obviously you are not going to see me waving my hand down here in my basement when I want to head to pitroad. At least they use hand signals to communicate driver to driver in Nascar.

Here is something I just thought of about the forced cockpit. I'm not going to argue it anymore as I don't even have time to read all these posts, there are so many now. But here's the situation. What happens if I have an ultra huge life size display from a projector or something? If I have a life size display or close to it, I surely don't want to be stuck with displaying only one side of my car. I would definitely want the display to be centered viewing the entire windshield and would position myself with my Momo in the driver's seat relative to that view. You couldn't get more hardcore than that. So, in eliminating those using a custom camera with a center view on a little 17-19" monitor, you also eliminate the ultra hardcore guy with an actual homefabricated cockpit and life size projector display. Hmmmmm :scratchch .

Peace all, I'm heading to bed.

Gunn

19th May 2006, 02:52

You couldn't get more hardcore than that.Except that your driver's arms would be ten feet long. :p

Woz

19th May 2006, 03:00

Except that your driver's arms would be ten feet long. :p

except when you drive with wheel and arms off. I have my wheel and arms in view so dont have them repeated :)

Gunn

19th May 2006, 03:09

except when you drive with wheel and arms off. I have my wheel and arms in view so dont have them repeated :)Lol. Still, in real life you can't see so much unless you are ten feet from the windshield. ;)

Woz

19th May 2006, 07:23

This is not correct and is not what people have been talking about in this topic. We are discussing options.

I had assumed that a hardcore mode would be an all in one option that could be turned on or off on the server. If each thing could be set on its own you would have no idea what rules were active and which were not.

Woz

19th May 2006, 07:34

Lol. Still, in real life you can't see so much unless you are ten feet from the windshield. ;)

hmmmm, time to plug the lappy into my 50" HD rear projector to test this. I will see how it looks in cockpit mode sat in the centre of screen and also centre view sat off to one side. I think Scawen said the render code had been updated for widescreen format. I know 4:1 is supported to handle 3 screen aspect ratio.

I don't think I will be Mr popular at home though if I wanted to move the TV to the study so I could use it for the PC lol

Woz

19th May 2006, 07:50

I collected the list of items so it is not lost.

I am not sure on forced manual clutch that was raised as people without proper clutch will prob use sequential on wheel. Can't see the point in forcing them to use button clutch. All other aids off though.

I also changed forced cockpit to view restrictions.

View restrictions :)
Forced manual gearbox.
No artificial driving aids including:
No auto-clutch????
No auto-throttle blip or cut.
Set Max Fuel Levels.
Set Min Pit Stops.
Set maximum number of tyres available per car.
Blue Light at end of pit lane.
Yellow flag penalties.
"Live" blend line on pit exit with penalty for any breach.
Closed server after qualifying ends (cannot connect to server while race in progress).
No telepitting during race, retire from race option instead.
No auto-reset of car.
Reduced chat options. (3 F-Keys only, for example)
Fixed pit boxes for each car (must stop in your pit box only).
Longer repair time in pit.
Allow 2-car team entries where two drivers must share the same pitbox.
Random damages ( engine, springs, brakes, tyres ...... )
Wind screen getting dirtyNew

Broadcast race start time in the server list. This is to allow easier population of long races on pickup servers. If people can see a big race starts in 30 mins they know to be ready for it. Instead of joining and waiting for enough people start join to start a long race.
Shift-F type mode. Although some of the HUD type should be displayed for a short time once you pass the start line to simulate pit board info. Also flag info displayed as Shift-F hides these normally
Real race starts with ability to jump the lights and black flag if you do.
LFS World hosted ban list for HC servers. Limit to 30min ban or similar to stop abuse. Should put wreckers off joining a HC server as their fun will be very short lived with a ban on all HC servers for the ban period :)

Pablo.CZ

19th May 2006, 08:05

What about my suggestions?
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=130722#post130722

random damages: imo wont be used, our PCs and inet connection are our random damages:)

sinbad

19th May 2006, 09:47

DEVIL 007

19th May 2006, 09:51

I collected the list of items so it is not lost.

Random damages ( engine, springs, brakes, tyres ...... )

You kidding?

How this would make a fare races if you had a randon damages after leading the race all the time? What a unfair advantage to your opponents.

This is something you can mostly control in realife(using better materials for example to avoid damage - some team use unproper parts,ivest less money) and LFS would need to calculate more things so you would have at least some kind of proper random damage.

Just setting random damage would be out of the place IHMO.

To the FOV conversation.
I am using since 2002 a 93degree of FOV as I have more overview what is happaneing around me which reflect more realife conditions and I have better sense of speed.The more FOV would be better as people have FOV around of 180-210 degree but in monitor it would be too much streched and not like in realife.

tristancliffe

19th May 2006, 10:49

I think now that Woz and I have calmed down, and made our peace to a certain extent, I can see where he's coming from a bit more. That last big post helped a lot. I'm still confused about the sense of speed thing, as I feel the speed more with higher FOV's not lower, but maybe that's a perception thingy - you know, how people see the faces rather than the vase first, and others see the vase first.

As Gunn as summed up, the aim of the 'View Restrictions' (:)) is not to, imo, force everyone to use the same view, but to limit people to sensible view options within the sim racing environment. I think the Papy method has it's virtues, but is a little too inflexible bearing in mind the differences in hardware and personal requirments. I need to be able to see the mirrors, preferably in the corner of my eye, and I achieve this with the large FOV. 60 is, for me, too narrow, though it is of course worse in some cars than others. However I am happy to accept what is given to me. I believe I am adaptable enough to cope with a forced position and FOV, but I would still prefer a small range of adjustability.

The final list drawn up seems good. I agree that Auto-Clutch has to remain enabled until either three-pedal setups become the norm, or the button clutch becomes a viable alternative which I don't think it is at the moment.

Random damage should never be included. In real life motorsport is a team sport (even in 'grass roots' racing it's more common that a group of people work on the car rather than one racer/engineer), and as such failures do happen - that can then be blamed on a preceeding event, and as such is not truly random. When I was last involved in the HSCC we had a wet race at Croft (I think it was), and our Fulvia was going around the outside of Elans which in the dry are 4 or 5 seconds a lap quicker. We got up to 2nd overall in 2 laps, then the throttle cable, which was improperly tightened on the carbs, came loose and we coasted to an embarassing halt. It wasn't random. I'd put money on that failure never happening again.
On the flip side I think that driving style should have an effect on the car - hitting kerbs hard should have the potential to damage the body, transmission, engine etc. Over-revving should cause a bit of damage, even if it's just that the engine starts to consume a bit of oil, and so later in the race you have to be careful about oil surge in corners as your oil level runs a bit lower (for the wet-sumped cars at least). So driver related failures are okay (if properly and fairly simulated), but random failures should not be.

Woz

19th May 2006, 11:31

Not sure I see how people can think low FOV's give a greater sense of speed. The reason a higher FOV can make the games feel faster is that you can see parts of the scenery when they are much closer to you, and we get the best idea of how fast something is going when it passes us. That means that the difference between standing still and moving at even a very low speed is much easier to notice with a high fov, because the objects we use to gauge that difference are much closer to us.
With a low FOV you only see more distant objects, and they are no longer in view when they pass you.

Its to do with how pixels move from the centre of the screen to the edge of the screen. You should notice with a low FOV that distances appear shorter while the wide FOV they appear longer because more data is displayed. So when you drive around the track it feels shorter.

You are right that it might just be perception. My brain is wired to work in strange FOV settings after more years in FPS games than I care to remember.

So some will see the speed of the warping effects high FOV give and see that as sense of speed while others see the distance feels shorter in low FOV so it feels faster.

Woz

19th May 2006, 11:33

You kidding?

Yep, sorry the list above the new items were not mine. Just collected bits.

Yep should be dropped.

Gunn

19th May 2006, 12:29

To explain forced manual clutch: People with 2 pedals are not effected at all since they are not the ones who would use that option. People who do use three pedals might like to race others who use three pedals and so that would be a choice for their server, not everybody's cup of tea. I take my hat off to those guys who use a clutch pedal, they are one step closer to hardcore than I am at the moment. By Christmas I suspect that many more racers will be using three pedal setups and the merit of hardcore clutch and gearbox options becomes more apparent. I know that forced controller options is another subject that always brings a lot of hot air to a topic like this, but regardless there is still a certain demographic that would welcome the option if it were available.
If hardcore options can do nothing more than bring groups of racers together for a serious attempt at conducting proper racing then in my opinion they are all worth consideration. Leagues are great, necessary, but public racing can be so much more than it is now. The open and casual environment of a public LFS server is something we can all claim to enjoy. It sure can be a community-building environment and quite rewarding. But let's race, let's really race each other in an environment with less interruptions and intrusions, more controlled and evenly matched and condusive by nature to at least a semi-serious approach to racing online.

When I think of all the things that disrupt or mar online public racing it isn't hard to create a list of things I'd love to disable so that I might have some proper races publicly, regularly.
And I'm not from the elitist sector either, as I said to somebody earlier today I fully excpect to get eaten alive in hardcore mode! :p A least I know that those who beat me in a hardcore mode environment probably have done so by purely out-performing me and racing better than I did. Getting trounced by someone who out-raced me or made the most out of his/her car better than I, well I can live with every day of the week.

Cue-Ball

19th May 2006, 15:40

I think there would be no need for disabling auto clutch or automatic gear changes if those options were just a bit slower than doing it yourself. I would prefer to leave my server open to people who want to use those options, but they do need to be penalized somehow.

I plan to buy the new logitech G25 wheel/shifter/pedals when they come out so that I'll finally have a proper clutch pedal. But, even once that happens most of the people who I regularly race against won't have a clutch. My cousin doesn't have full use of both arms or legs, so he would be unable to race at all without auto gear change, auto clutch, etc. I want to allow these people to continue racing, but I also don't want them given an automatic advantage for doing less work. So, having the option to disable it on the server side might have some merit, but if the game gave a bit of a disadvantage for using those options, disabling them on the server might not even be necessary in the first place.

George Kuyumji

20th August 2006, 01:10

In NASCAR Racing 2003 there is a Online Hardcore Mode with forced Cockpit View.
The drivers are not that much splitted on the Servers as someone said could happen, there are some drivers who only Race on forced Cockpit view Servers, but most drivers also join "free view" Servers aswell. The Splitting of the community is not that much of an issue, in Public Servers most Cockpit View drivers join any Servers, regardless of forced view or not.

steve

20th August 2006, 05:47

Forcing views would be silly, as I use a custom incar view for my dual monitor setup. Unless The Man adds some new incar cams where we can pick which monitor the driving side is on, thrn it would be good :)

stealthstorm

20th August 2006, 16:49

I use cockpit view...it would be nice to have an option as a server host to force a certain view so it's all equall.

The screenshot in the first post, I guess it's easier to play like that...haven't tryed it yet...maybe I should in order to win races...?

BTW: Sick link in your signature STEVE :D

Jamexing

20th August 2006, 18:16

Guys, I'm all for hardcore mode if practically viable. In fact, I drive in cockpit mode only, because LFS is meant to be a racing simulator. However, unless quality triple pedalled wheel and pedal sets are freely available on the market, its implementation is still questionable at best.:(

Currently, it's still quite hard to get realistc feeling wheels and pedals. Let's just say that most steering wheels on the market feel like nothing more than underdamped spings. As for 3 pedal sets, I've not seem the mat my local stores yet. I could use 2 pedal sets to use the 2nd set as a clutch, but that is far from ideal.

HiTTeR

26th August 2006, 19:56

Captain Slow

26th August 2006, 20:00

i only want hardcore mode if lfs gets petty grid-girls :D:D:D

bo-kristiansen

26th August 2006, 20:26

Whatever view you use have NOTHING to do with how good or bad you drive,
so why force it - just to satify some peoples ideal of how LFS should be played???? :shrug:

...silly.

If I would run a league or whatever I wouldn force people to wear f.ex.
red underwear just because I like red underwear. :D

Funnybear

26th August 2006, 20:34

I would Bo. If you asked me too.

bo-kristiansen

26th August 2006, 20:36

I would Bo. If you asked me too.

:bananadea

Funnybear

26th August 2006, 20:39

What? You want me to set my pants on fire too?

Oh. Ok then.

Pass the petrol someone.

Blackout

26th August 2006, 20:44

Here you go. Want some more mushrooms with it?

Funnybear

26th August 2006, 20:45

No ta. But if you have any Blue Vien Camonbert. That would be nice. I heard it goes a bit pyschotropic after a few months on top o fhte radiator.

George Kuyumji

9th October 2006, 21:10

Woz

9th October 2006, 22:50

Is there any news if a Hardcore Mode is planned or considered to be implemented in on of the next Patches?

The Cockpit viewer, H-Shifter and 3 Pedals user should not have a disadvantage when the final Version of S3 comes out. IMHO There should be a Hardcore Mode for Racers with a full Sim Racing Setup. Such as 3 pedals, cockpit view and H-Shift users (on cars that are supposed to be driven that way)

Giving that the G25 is going to have the first 3 pedal setup on a Mass Market scale, it should be considered to NOT leave the guys driving in a more realistic way on a Grid against guys driving with Arcade Options.

Were there any information from Scawen about this?

Hardcore mode SHOULD NOT force 3 pedals and H pattern. If Auto clutch and gear change speed is sorted then why not allow 2 pedal and sequental.

The rest of the bits is needed though.
- No join mid race
- No jump to pits, just retire from race.
- No F9 or F10
- No reset car
- Restricted view options

tristancliffe

9th October 2006, 22:55

Gunn

9th October 2006, 23:57

Hardcore mode should be a set of options, not a blanket of inflexible changes. That way people with shifters and 3-pedals can race each other fairly by selecting those server side options. Being able to customise hardcore options would allow various hardcore configurations that suit a wider range of players and cater to different types of racing. If we just have one static hardcore setup with no options, the whinging will never cease.
With optional settings you could set up a server that applies several HC options but still caters for all views etc. Or you may choose just to switch off telepitting and resets and leave other things in their default state. Maybe you just want to force a single setup for all racers or something like that?

Jamexing

10th October 2006, 00:58

Hyperactive

10th October 2006, 01:11

dawesdust_12

10th October 2006, 01:33

My idea is how we have now a "newbie" "ok" and "pro" sort of skill levels in settings, why not add "hardcore" mode to it so then we can have all these features as an options.

tristancliffe

10th October 2006, 08:48

Again that no-mid race join... I think it is much better to join a server to drive few laps to get to know the car&track before the actual start. Instead of forcing drivers to start the race directly from the start grid. The few laps before the actual race can be critical to get feeling for the car before the actual race.

Instead of the current system:
Qual
Race
Race
Race
Race...

where you need to drive a bit in a race to practice, the hardcore mode could enforce weekends (like a lot of driving games do) so it becomes:

Practice
Qual
Race
Practice
Qual
Race...

Sorted!

George Kuyumji

10th October 2006, 09:18

Agreed. The G25 is the start of the 3-pedal system becoming 'the norm' but until then even I wouldn't want to penalise people without them. Hardcore mode should be irrespective of controller really. However, when ALL (bar the very cheapest) wheels come with three pedals then is the time to consider enforcing it, but not until then!

All of Woz's points are 100000000% brilliant, and I will pay for S10 if they were added!

To include a (setupable) Hardcore Mode in LFS would not penalise anybody.

Quite the Opposite, Sim Racers who always drive with the cockpit view and 3 pedals are penalised now.
A Hardcore Mode would not penalise left foot braker or bird-view drivers - it would only give the drivers who prefer to drive with more Simulation type Options a Starting Grid where they can compete against other Sim Racers with the same views and settings.
If you drive in the bird view or roof cam view thats just fine, there would only be a few Servers running the Hardcore Mode which you couldnt join, the Majority of Servers would surely stay with all Options open.

It works just fine in NASCAR Racing 2003. When you Race Online there you can get a 43 car starting grid, but you dont have a problem finding a Server without forced Cockpit View at the same time.

A (setupable) Hardcore Mode would not penalise anyone, it would add something to the Simulation.

I agree with Gunn on the Hardcore Mode, it should be setupable

Something like this, of course the Host should be able to choose between whats forced and whats not.

Forced Cockpit View
No driving aids
No Reset of Car during Race
Clutch is an Axis
H Pattern Shifter (if that particular car is supposed to be driven like that)

Gunn said:

Hardcore mode should be a set of options, not a blanket of inflexible changes. That way people with shifters and 3-pedals can race each other fairly by selecting those server side options. Being able to customise hardcore options would allow various hardcore configurations that suit a wider range of players and cater to different types of racing. If we just have one static hardcore setup with no options, the whinging will never cease.
With optional settings you could set up a server that applies several HC options but still caters for all views etc. Or you may choose just to switch off telepitting and resets and leave other things in their default state. Maybe you just want to force a single setup for all racers or something like that?

scania

10th October 2006, 11:17

No Reset Button
Stop more than 2 min but not pit stop>>>Specter
no last lap pit

Hyperactive

10th October 2006, 14:37

Instead of the current system:
Qual
Race
Race
Race
Race...

where you need to drive a bit in a race to practice, the hardcore mode could enforce weekends (like a lot of driving games do) so it becomes:

Practice
Qual
Race
Practice
Qual
Race...

Sorted!

Nooo! :)

I was once on a server with FEL and filur and they were trying something like this, but most of the people just left when the practise started. Some also left when the quali started so there wasn't many left for the actual race. Maybe 6 out of 12 who stayed.

And I'm not too interested in having a quali between every race, simply because the speed levels are much greater than in leagues racing so it ends up just to the point that only the 2 or 3 quickest have chance of winning. And that is because they easily get the first places on the grid. The others are just too slow to fight against them. With random grids the pack is mixed so no one has the benefit of better starting position all the time.

And after all people want close racing, not some tight schedule :)

----
And I think that making the HC mode so that it has some options to tick off/on won't work. There are some issues to be though out first:

People with more than one monitor are probably using custom view
How about setting some border wher you can place the "camera" inside the car instead of one fixed point that may be useless for people with 2 monitors? At least the height of the camera position should have a limit because the higher the camera is the better you see around. imho.

No F9 or F10
These should be removed all together and replaced (where necessary and realistic) with proper indicators. But with current physics where slight overheating willl cause the tires to lose most of the grip they can be useful. But still unrealistic. Imho, this should not be part of the HC mode, because it is feature that should be always available (where necessary and realistic = to be in BF1 but not in UF1)

No reset car.
Just add time penalty and I'm fine with it. Also disabling this is more disadvantegous (spelling :p) to some cars than to some others. Look at the GTRs, the XRR is the only one that gets stuck while the FZR is sometimes even better offroader than the FXR. So getting stuck is not always the driver's fault, it may be the car too. (of course you should keep away from the sandy places but that is not the point) To me the resetting of the car could simulate the tow car.