BMW-Sauber: RPM

[BuddhaBing]

Does the engine rev too high in the BMW-Sauber? An F1PerfView graph of RPM over time for a lap around AS Grand Touring shows that I'm frequently hitting peak revs of about 21,600 RPM. This seems to me to be about 1000-2000 RPM too high given that current F1 V8s struggle to run at 20,000 RPM even in test conditions.

[neo force KP61]

probably because its not gonna cost you your job if you blow it :razz:

[ArosaMike]

Hopefully this video should answer your question nicely :D

2006 Cosworth V8 (http://www.cosworth.com/downloads/cosworthV8_movie5_medium.mpg?PHPSESSID=bebefa6776c 768055d73d55f6de1f076)

The fact that there are two fewer pistons helps matters, but the main reason for the increase over last year is just natural development. There's also been more of a push to get the max power out of the V8s this year because of the huge drop off of performance.

The torque is also terribly low now (hence all teams now run 7sp 'boxes instead of a few still running 6 ratios last year). The quoted torque of 209lb/ft on LFS will be pretty accurate. Just to put that in perspective, our Saab 9-3 produces 205lb/ft of torque! It's all about top end power with an F1 engine.

Incidently, came accross this cool video in my search Renault V10 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7393939630149644203&q=f1+v8&pl=true). I was lucky enough to see Mercedes run one of their V10s on a dyno in 2001, and it was pretty magical :D

[nmanley]

That Google clip is very impressive. What a great dyno that can simulate a full race.

THANKS

[ArosaMike]

Yeah it's fun watching it when it's attatched to a gearbox. The one at Mercedes had Hakinnens lap programmed in to it. You could hear all this throttle feathering and everything. They have one in Germany that can shake the thing around too!

[spyshagg]

actually, the cosworth is the only engine hitting the 20k rpm.

All the others (BMW included) only hit about 19k... some just 18,xxx rpm

so yes, from what i see on F1 races through Tv, the BF1 is reving way to much in LFS

[ArosaMike]

You're assuming that the TV graphics are 100% reliable though. They're not...they're calculated values done through estimation. It's possible to calculate the revs through analysis of the sounds, so I don't know whether it's done 'on the fly' by the TV system, or whether they just match it to approximated frequencies. You can tell it isn't a real feed as it goes a bit hay-wire sometimes.

None of the F1 teams want to give away the exact rpm figure because of their competitors. I'd say that the LFS revs are relatively accurate.

[TagForce]

You're assuming that the TV graphics are 100% reliable though. They're not...they're calculated values done through estimation. It's possible to calculate the revs through analysis of the sounds, so I don't know whether it's done 'on the fly' by the TV system, or whether they just match it to approximated frequencies. You can tell it isn't a real feed as it goes a bit hay-wire sometimes.

None of the F1 teams want to give away the exact rpm figure because of their competitors. I'd say that the LFS revs are relatively accurate.

Ah, but F1 teams sign a contract obligating them to send a telemetry feed to the FIA for broadcasting purposes. The feed you see on TV is actually a low quality telemetry read out from the actual engine status. It goes haywire sometimes because the quality is so low that like in LFS sometimes lag occurs and the feed kinda 'warps' all over the track.

[qrac]

Ah, but F1 teams sign a contract obligating them to send a telemetry feed to the FIA for broadcasting purposes. The feed you see on TV is actually a low quality telemetry read out from the actual engine status. It goes haywire sometimes because the quality is so low that like in LFS sometimes lag occurs and the feed kinda 'warps' all over the track.
are you sure? i was convinced the rpm was derived from accoustic analysis..

[2bb1nordli]

It's probably right rpm's. The have probably got some facts from BMW

[Rappa Z]

hint:cosworth 2004 it's 2006

[ajp71]

Any low quality RPM feed is likely to contain a large amount of bullshit by teams disguising what they're really doing. They also won't post on their websites what they're really getting in testing.

[tristancliffe]

WE only know what the cars rev to, not what the redline is, so perhaps the 'redline' of the BMW V8 P86 is 22,000rpm, but there is perhaps no benefit to revving to that - i.e. more wheel torque in the next gear at circa 19,000rpm.

Who knows? Not us!

[ajp71]

Also anyone proved there's 6 hours engine life revving to 22000 rpm?

[nexis]

I tried to brake the engine hiting high RPM. I couldnt. While on 7th gear and over 300 km/h I downshifted to 1st gear. The engine after that was still running. Maybe a bug?

[Yaamboo]

actually, the cosworth is the only engine hitting the 20k rpm.

All the others (BMW included) only hit about 19k... some just 18,xxx rpm

so yes, from what i see on F1 races through Tv, the BF1 is reving way to much in LFS

Räikkönen revved 21k in today's quali.

[ajp71]

I tried to brake the engine hiting high RPM. I couldnt. While on 7th gear and over 300 km/h I downshifted to 1st gear. The engine after that was still running. Maybe a bug?

Engine damage doesn't really exist in LFS yet, you can damage the engine but you have to be really trying (ie. 15000 rpm in the XF GTI).

[colcob]

I think the important thing to remember about F1 engines is that the rev limits we hear about arent actually the ideal shift points, F1 teams always want to set the limit higher if they could without the engine blowing up.
So the engine will probably physically run to 22,000, and the team probably would run it to that if they could, but it wouldnt last more than a lap.

[Barroso]

i think the devs would have made it pretty accurate, atleast they had some info about it, ive only read speculation here.

[ajp71]

i think the devs would have made it pretty accurate, atleast they had some info about it, ive only read speculation here.

No they wouldn't of, BMW will have given them a rough torque curve and told them that they rev in to 2X000 rpm ;)

[MyBoss]

yep, because how much the real motor revs is a big secret. lol

[Interceptor]

There is a thread discussing F1 on the forums at Digital Spy in which quite a few of the people behind the scenes take part - i.e. people who do work or have worked in the past for FOM. From reading that thread, it is clear that the RPM display is provided by analysis of the sound produced by the engine. At the start of the season they were discussing how the switch to V8 engines might require some updating to the equations that provide the display.

[Linsen]

naive question from a complete dummy concerning these matters:

If the bf1's peak hp is at 19076 rpm and it's peak torque is at 16315 rpm, shouldn't I be shifting at 19076 rpm at the latest? I mean, I know the redlamp comes on much later, but that doesn't seem logical to me :shrug:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

naive question from a complete dummy concerning these matters:

If the bf1's peak hp is at 19076 rpm and it's peak torque is at 16315 rpm, shouldn't I be shifting at 19076 rpm at the latest? I mean, I know the redlamp comes on much later, but that doesn't seem logical to me :shrug:

Short answer: not necessarily.

See the "about GTRs" thread in the improvements section for lengthy "discussion" involving this matter.

[colcob]

Linsen: Its complicated, but suffice to say that extract maximum acceleration from an engine, you nearly always need to shift after peak power.

Imagine the peak of a mountain you are passing over, if you start half way up and climb to the top, your average height is 3/4 of the way up. If you start 3/4 up and climb over the top and a 1/4 down the other side, your average height is 7/8 of the way up, which is higher.

Simple as that :)

[DodgeRacer]

way to be anal guys...:)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Linsen: Its complicated, but suffice to say that extract maximum acceleration from an engine, you nearly always need to shift after peak power.

Imagine the peak of a mountain you are passing over, if you start half way up and climb to the top, your average height is 3/4 of the way up. If you start 3/4 up and climb over the top and a 1/4 down the other side, your average height is 7/8 of the way up, which is higher.

Simple as that :)

I agree Colcob...

BUT: What do you mean by acceleration ??!?!:razz:

Just kidding, don't answer that please. lol

[nexis]

Which are the ideal shift points? What is the best RPM to change gear? 19000? after 19000? 200000? Help. Before BMW f1 there was the red light. Now I dont know when to change gear..

[zeugnimod]

The red light is still there. :shrug:

[ajp71]

Which are the ideal shift points? ... 200000?

I'd change before 200000 rpm.

[nexis]

The red light is still there. :shrug:
Yes but is very different now. It is green then orange then red. I upshift now just before the red light comes out. Late oragne.. Do I achive max acceleration? I think what friend aip71 said I'd change before 20000 rpm. is correct (upshifting late orange is the same thing) but is that true?

[tristancliffe]

Alex (ajp) said don't shift at 200,000rpm ;)

[nexis]

Lol!

[Woz]

What is this thread about. We get a REAL LIFE car supplied with data by the actual racing team that designed, runs & maintains that car. The team is happy enough that they allow their logo's, graphics and name be associated with the car in the sim and then people question if the revs for redline in LFS is correct for that car.

This is well funny :D

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Indicative of the spirit of the last few days :rolleyes:

[colcob]

Interestingly, the F1 shifts lights arent the magic torque calculating ones we have one the other cars.
I kept waiting to hit red in 5th and 6th but found that it would take an age to rev up to the red light, but if you shifted up, you'd get extra torque in 6th or 7th and immediately start accelerating again.

[letdown427]

Yes but is very different now. It is green then orange then red. I upshift now just before the red light comes out. Late oragne.. Do I achive max acceleration?

They do now go green orange yellow red etc, but there's also the red shift light below those that comes on after you've been in the red for a bit. I didn't notice it for a while as I was shifting just as the red came up, but noticed there is still the shift light, the green -> red lights at the top are your rev gauge basically. Or so it seems.:scratchch

[inCogNito]

They do now go green orange yellow red etc, but there's also the red shift light below those that comes on after you've been in the red for a bit. I didn't notice it for a while as I was shifting just as the red came up, but noticed there is still the shift light, the green -> red lights at the top are your rev gauge basically. Or so it seems.:scratchch

but these red lights indicate the rev limiter, don't they?
So shifting when the rev limiter is already on maybe a little bit to late ;)

[Rappa Z]

seems the rpm should be correct, and it's correct.:)

[colcob]

They do now go green orange yellow red etc, but there's also the red shift light below those that comes on after you've been in the red for a bit. I didn't notice it for a while as I was shifting just as the red came up, but noticed there is still the shift light, the green -> red lights at the top are your rev gauge basically. Or so it seems.:scratchch

Yeah, those red lights lower down are the 'OMG shift will you before I blow up' lights. You can tell by the raggedy sound of the rev limiter.

[Theafro]

It's a shame we don't have those lights in the 'wheels only' view, it's nice to have an RPM indicator that you don't have to actually look at, you simply wait until you see red in you're peripheral vision and shift. I'm mainly going by sound ATM, 20,000rpm is quite a distinctive note :)

[Forbin]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the red light at the top (not the smaller red rev limiter light farther down on the wheel) is the same as the shift indicator light. Drive in wheels view for a bit and listen to when the shift light comes on. Then drive in cockpit view. The frequency is the same.