TC sucks or doesn't? [Archive]

NeoTry

21st April 2006, 19:02

mkinnov8

21st April 2006, 19:05

Greboth

21st April 2006, 19:07

I havent tried the fz50 with the TC but the tC on the bmw f1 i can still spin it. It makes it easier to drive, but from wat ive driven it doesnt mean its easy.

dylan

21st April 2006, 19:07

as tristantcliffe i'm not an ABS/ESP fan, but the TC on the F1 simply rocks, make it more realistic. And without it i doubt i would be able to do a decent laptime

Stellios

21st April 2006, 19:08

To be honest, i like it on the BMW Sauber, its saved my hyde many a time, but on the FZ50 i really dont see the point, its not that hard a car to control anyway. The rumble of the TC on the BMW is just spine tingling good.

If you dont like it then just disable it? I just hope it doesnt appear on every car.

mkinnov8

21st April 2006, 19:11

erm... its only on the BF1 at the moment.

Serpentine

21st April 2006, 19:14

No, it's supposed to be on the FZ50 as well...:)

Serp.

mkinnov8

21st April 2006, 19:15

really? it didnt work for me when i tried all the cars

SHIFT_

21st April 2006, 19:16

I can't see any problem with the TC at all, even on the FZ50. I keep it set to allow 10% wheelspin, it only kicked in just before I would have spun. I was getting into these wild angles and it wasn't getting in my way, just keeping me from spinning.

As far as F1 goes, I seriously doubt even the top drivers could control their cars without the TC, they pretty much have the same reaction times everyone else has, so they wouldn't be able to stop it spinning in time. If TC is what LFS needs to realistically simulate F1, then so be it, as long as it's adjustable I don't care.

Serpentine

21st April 2006, 19:19

really? it didnt work for me when i tried all the cars

Yeah, if you go to the setup screen you'll see a Brakes/TC tab.

Serp.

NeoTry

21st April 2006, 19:22

How long have you been driving with it for?
How many times have you tweaked settings and changed options?
How much milage have you done?
How many laps on a track that isnt new?
How many races or practice sessions have you had?

Traction Control is there for a reason, to make things realistic. F1 has traction control, either race with it, or without it, or try a mix of it, but please, give it a few weeks before deciding if you like it or not.

My opinion is because I like to do the work by my self. All helps you can turn on makes game arcade and the gap between arcade and simulator is can you win wheel with kb... Now I see people driving with kb like they had wheel just using acceleration on/off and not about skills so it's not good thing.

At least would like to see update to dedi server to allow rule out TC that what I'm asking

MadCatX

21st April 2006, 19:22

mkinnov8

21st April 2006, 19:33

If you like doing all yourself, go for it and the best of luck, but others will want to do things more realisticly, ala traction control on the F1 car.

Happy racing.

Vain

21st April 2006, 19:34

The first thing I do after entering a race is disabling TC. I just can't live with the feeling that I'm not in control, but some traction-algorithm.

Vain

gishuk

21st April 2006, 19:42

I havnt driven the fz250 since the patch so i can only talk about the BF1

i think the traction control is a good think, makes the car easy enough to drive with all that power that you can actually RACE and have fun rather than battle with the car 99% of the time. Without it its kinda like the f08, not as much fun.

it makes the car easy to drive at 80% but when you really are pushing its still hard with TC on, and because the speeds involved are SO high, you have to concetrate really hard anyway adds a whole new challenge.

i think its a good thing, and really if you dont like it press O and hey preso its gone :thumb:

avih

21st April 2006, 19:49

it feels great and i like it. although i don't have enough milage to appreciate it yet, and only started using early gas while counting on TC to hold me lately. still a good thing imo.

oh, and the BF1 rocks :) and has great sound

colcob

21st April 2006, 19:51

I must admit, I find the traction control on the BF1 really, really good. You can still spin the car in all kinds of situations if you dont drive it right. If you get the car rotating to much under trail braking, and get on the throttle, even with the TC you can spin it, you can spin it if you hit bumps and dont correct properly or ifyou suddenly change line when the TC is on the limit.
Its a really sophisticated implementation of TC as far as I can tell and certainly makes things more realistic, and more fun.

So nerr.

Hoellsen

21st April 2006, 20:16

What people forget is that real F1 cars are nowadays constructed with the TC in mind, meaning that the engineers can be more aggressive on the general layout of the car knowing that the driver is helped by the TC.

It's not just to make it easier, it's there to make it quicker by using a more aggressive setup and still keeping it controllable. I am sure we will see some very quick setups in the next couple of weeks that will be totally uncontrollable without TC and that would be just like in real life.

steve30x

21st April 2006, 20:17

Im happy to se traction control on the cars. I can now drive the fz with TC enabled and the car will still spin if your stupid with it. All i can say is i hope more cars get it and if you dont like to have Traction control in your car then TURN IT OFF

frokki

21st April 2006, 20:29

I dont know why there is TC on FZ50. It should rather be on RA that FZ50. Hopefully no other cars have TC. I like TC on Sauber(to be honest, I think its a little more effective than in real, but Im not F1 pilot:)) - real Sauber has TC, LFS Sauber has TC - thats how it is real, no matter if some m8 think that TC sucks.You partly answered for yourself already. Real Raceabout doesn't have TC, so LFS RAC doesn't have. FZ50 have been said representing cars like Porsche 911 (http://www.car-wallpaper.net/porsche/gt2-gt3/images/srcPorsche-911-GT2-013.jpg), Ferrari 550 Maranello (http://www.legendmotors.net/catalog/images/550MARANELLO%20001.jpg) and Ferrari 612 Scaglietti (http://www.edge-inc.net/images/cars/612_Scaglietti_03.jpg), which all have TC in real life, so it's obvius (even though not necessarily needed) to have it in LFS too.

WorldFamous

21st April 2006, 20:46

If you're so silky smooth with the car you shouldn't see the blue light flickering in the first place. The fact is that F1 cars are quicker with TC than without, and isn't the point of racing to get the best result out of the equipment you've got? It's an aid which reacts to what the car is doing, it isn't a game aid like steering help which corrects/helps things before the game ever 'tells' the car. Hardly the realms of turning LFS into an arcade racer like someone said.

The FZ50 is a different story, but not using the TC on the F1 is just imposing a handicap on yourself in every race. Teams wouldn't spend millions developing it if it didn't make the car go faster.

I can see why people would want the challenge of racing the Sauber without TC, so it's a good job it comes with an OFF button.

Kashopi

21st April 2006, 20:50

Hello fellowracers... I just have to shout out my opion or I will crash :shrug:

TC sucks... It doesn't matter if F1 IRL has it or not but I don't like game/motor to do driving for me. Looked dedi server cfg and didn't see there option to limit it to be ruled out so I don't know if somebody on server uses it.

I'd like to drive without it but it's not fun when i do hard work against some one who just push metal to the petal and leaves me stand pants on my knees.

Who ever setups a server which limits people not to use TC will get my love for a life time.... :tilt:

Wanna be the new TC Taliban? :lol:
Before was the "force cockpit view" , now the "force TC off" ... I wonder what will be the next "force ...." ...
If you don't like it turn it off , it's in the setup screen :P
I'm happy having the option, thanks SCAVIER for such great patch.It's really really good....

steve30x

21st April 2006, 20:59

Wanna be the new TC Taliban? :lol:
Before was the "force cockpit view" , now the "force TC off" ... I wonder what will be the next "force ...." ...
If you don't like it turn it off , it's in the setup screen :P
I'm happy having the option, thanks SCAVIER for such great patch.It's really really good....

I agree with you 100%:nod: :rally_dri :hidesbehi

z3r0c00l

21st April 2006, 22:31

If you want to see the value of TC, check out the first parade lap from the australian grand prix, on of the drivers switches it off to warm up his tyres, and promptly spins out, if someone else hadn't stalled on the grid he'd have been down 8 places from his qual position at the start!!

Stellios

21st April 2006, 22:37

ajp71

21st April 2006, 22:48

As has been said before the 2006 BMW Sauber has TC so suprisingly the simulated car has TC :pillepall There'd be far more complaints if it wasn't in and of course you can struggle round at the limits of human throttle control if you want to. What I'm most impressed about is the aggressive sound of the traction control (I assume it is simulated by firing the engine on less cylinders as IRL).

The FZ50 is a different story, but not using the TC on the F1 is just imposing a handicap on yourself in every race. Teams wouldn't spend millions developing it if it didn't make the car go faster.

Running the safe race set I struggled to get the TC light to come on anywhere apart from flooring it in first, so it really doesn't make a big difference.

Stellios

21st April 2006, 22:53

Running the safe race set I struggled to get the TC light to come on anywhere apart from flooring it in first, so it really doesn't make a big difference.

First corner in blackwood is the only time it comes on for me, and the consequences are dangerous if i turn it off and try to take the corner at the same speeds.

ree44u

21st April 2006, 22:55

Traction Control is there for a reason, to make things realistic. F1 has traction control, either race with it, or without it, or try a mix of it, but please, give it a few weeks before deciding if you like it or not.

Amen, you need to put some laps (a lot) in with different car/track combos to form an educated opinion, all different things seem alien at first, but persevere and you may change your mind :)

snellejowan

21st April 2006, 23:08

i also like driving without it more. but i have no problem with people who do use it that i'm racing against. i just find it a little weird that the engine holds back when i want to go out of a corner fast. maybe if i give it some time i will discover good racing with tc. and whoever said that about the sets is absolutely right. i already have a set that i just had to change to drive it without tc on. But i think with some practise u can be just as fast without :D. I even had a faster start over the field that gereraly was driving with tc on. to bad i lost it after a few sec :p.

-[TS]-jojo.

sdether

21st April 2006, 23:09

I really like the TC on the BF1. Part because it saves my ass and part because the stutter it creates in the engine is a sound i've heard so many times during F1 races and makes it more real for me.

Tried the FZ50 with TC and didn't like it because it didn't work with the way I drive that car. With the FZ50, i usually come up on a hard turn, turn the wheel in low gear and make the back step out and throttle steer it through. But with the TC it wants to help me and stops the slide widening my turning radius.

Wordan

21st April 2006, 23:09

I like traction control. I find it far to hard to race even the V08 without it to be any fun. I wouldn't like to emagine the number of car pile ups at the start of each race if TC were banned The challange is to get around the track as fast as possible, not keep the car in a streight line (without TC, the challange for me would be the latter :p )

Isn't the F1 traction control delibertly simple? Does it just reduce the power when things start to get wobbly?

Greboth

21st April 2006, 23:13

I for one am glad its there. I mean the car IRL has TC so the car in game has TC. No where near reaching arcade style. I think that the TC is done really well. As for people saying i dont want it ill turn it off. Thats just making hard for yourself. Im not the best set up maker, im more likely to be the worst. But i was playing about with the TC setting it so it didnt come on and i was driving, it was there jsut incase i press accel to much.
I havent tried the fz50 but i can see why its been put in that car. As the cars its based on IRL have it.

Gabkicks

21st April 2006, 23:15

I really like the TC on the BF1. Part because it saves my ass and part because the stutter it creates in the engine is a sound i've heard so many times during F1 races and makes it more real for me.

yeah same here :) i love how realistic it sounds. i never knew what caused that sound untill i drove the sauberf1 in live for speed:tilt:
with most roadcars, sportscars and supercars, traction control makes the cars less pleasurable to drive and slower. so that explains not liking tcs with the fz. the car is pretty easy to control without tcs

vladimir

21st April 2006, 23:54

TC on the sauber arcadish?!? i can't believe it...:pillepall

MikeBowditch

22nd April 2006, 00:15

I'm with Tristan on this one, I don't like the TC, it makes it far too easy to drive... I hope there will be an option for servers to ban the TC.

Gabkicks

22nd April 2006, 00:17

irl, dont the drivers use TC? sure it may be easy for you but i just got back from a few servers and most of the people were way off the pace of the leader. on a few blackwood servers a large majority of the players could barely get around the track in one minute.

maybe its the influx of newbies... i like the tcs. it seems realistic to me. if you look at rl telemetry it does to me anyways

MikeBowditch

22nd April 2006, 00:20

I can't claim to know much about what the real racers actually use... As a lot of people seem to have said, they do seem to use it... I just don't like it... The FO8 doesn't have it, and this isn't much harder to drive.. I don't mind people using it, I'd just like to see a few servers where it was not allowed also, is that reasonable?

I guess if everyone is going to use it, then I'm going to have to re-enable it myself, as It is possible to go quite a bit faster with it on, I got 58.56 with it off, and 56s (approx) with it on.

tristancliffe

22nd April 2006, 00:52

I am using Traction Control!!!!!!!

Before you all go ha, let me explain - these new physics are very different in an OMFGITSSOMUCHBETTER kind of way, and I've got to learn the limits of the cars, tyres, physics etc. Thus I am driving with TC on, but doing my best to barely let the light come on, a bit like Jenson Button. Right now I am having to fall back on the TC to save the day now and again, but I'm confident in a few days I won't need it.

And real F1 drivers are big girls blouses, cos I say so. So there. BAH!

vellanet

22nd April 2006, 01:25

Why are you all complaining, if you're up against someone with heavy TC, they'll be slower just like in real F1. There is such a thing as too much TC and LFS lets you setup your car that way. Its in your best interests to learn to live with it but at the same time, not need it. Like Jenson Button as someone said above.

lalathegreat

22nd April 2006, 02:53

tristancliffe u know traction control is like crack right lol, u can get addicted to it

all of a sudden everyone loves tracktion control, i remmeber days of when everyone hated tracktion control and almost everyone is down wit it now:shrug:

RacingSimFan

22nd April 2006, 05:51

Well whatever our opinions on the morality of Traction Control are, this is the best TC system I've seen implemented into a game, and I think everyone agrees with me - which is why people seem to be praising TC, when in fact they're really praising how well the LFS Devs have done the TC for this car...with the tremendous support of the BMW-Sauber team.

I love how adjustable it is and that it is tied to setups, and that you can switch it off at the touch of a button. Jack it up for South City. Turn it off completely on KY Oval. Happy medium everywhere else. And it all gets saved so you don't have to keep adjusting it for different tracks all the time once you've found your favorite settings.

Like I said, whether TC is 'moral' or not will be debated to the end of time...but LFS has done a super job of making it realistic in-game.:thumb:

Rotary

22nd April 2006, 06:03

I prefer raw mechanical beasts but I'll use technology if its there. Besides, since the real F1's have TC why is it a problem in our "real" F1 car?

Shotglass

22nd April 2006, 07:02

i guess most of us hadnt fully realised before that a road cars tc and the one in an f1 are vastly different ... the tc is not a electronic nanny (though you can set it to be one) and it feels splendid
personally i finally understood how f1 drivers can drive with very short pedalways

Korski

22nd April 2006, 07:12

TC is very great feature! It helps keyboard drivers like me A LOT!

CharlieP

22nd April 2006, 07:26

TC is realism and it makes the car drivable and heaps of fun. I don't think anyone could keep it on the straight and narrow for an hour without it.

Get REAL, Get TC :D

Funnybear

22nd April 2006, 07:32

Which is a fair comment, so you can TURN IT OFF . . . . . lol.

Edit - ~Damn. missed the post . . .

I spent a bit of time punting the F1 car around last night, man is that thing fast . . . Drove the FZR afterwards and boy is that thing slow . . . .

As a mouser if the BF1 didn't have TC then I would be screwed with it . . . . It's still a handful and still needs the reactions of superman but at least I can hustle it around the track without to much drama.

I think this is dramatic improvement over the previous version of LFS. All the game improvements have been considered and practical. Good on yer Devs, you've come up with the goods again and now I've got a whole new LFS to learn all over again . . . .

It's amazing, my setups are having to change completlty to take advantage of all this extra grip we have. It's great . . .

psy00

22nd April 2006, 10:05

I like TC too maybe it helps the new players but you all want some challenge right ? :nod: if you are good at the game this will show with TC or without , it's good when you have many options and the way it works is remarkable :)

CoRe Carl 078

22nd April 2006, 10:27

I love it. :thumb:

It sounds and it feels just like the real thing, as far as I can tell from a F1 fan perspective. It adds another variable to the car set-up, and you need to adapt your driving style to it, and learn to use it to its full advantage. In real life some had/are having trouble with this, too. Just look at Barichello since he's moved to BAR, or Villeneuve last year.

I often wondered how the hell some drivers could keep their cars on the track while hustling them very hard at speed, well, now I have a better idea of why.

If you want to have races without it, why not just get with your team, or a bunch of racers you know and set that as a rule for a few races? We've done this with mandatory sets or passengers, so that shouldn't be a problem, really.

JeffR

22nd April 2006, 13:12

Bottom line here - real race cars have traction control, so a racing simulation should also have traction control.

Note that in real life, traction control, and no lift fast sequential shifters both take seconds off lap times, which is why they are used. Note that the traction control in LFS models the real ones where you set the amount of slippage. A driver might be able to maintain optimal slippage for a qualifying lap, but not for a 2 hour race.

You can always turn off traction control. The USA racing series Champ cars (formerly CART) and Nascar don't allow traction control. Some claim it's still being used secretively, but based on the higher number of spin outs in these series as opposed to other racing series, there aren't many that are cheating.

FIA F1, ALMS LMP, FIA GT1 classes allow traction control, but via the ECU only. A lot of European racing series, like the Dutch Supercar Challenge have no restrictions at all, so traction control uses ECU and individual wheel braking.

What isn't modeled in LFS yet, is the super fast (30ms to 50ms) no lift sequential shifters used in F1 and other racing classes.

I've posted links to videos in another thread.

GianniC

22nd April 2006, 13:31

TC = traction control right ?

Pardon me for the silly question, but can someone briefly explain what it does exactly ?
And, most important, if you have TC on in the BF1, will it make you faster or slower, or does that depend on track/car ?

ajp71

22nd April 2006, 13:35

F1 drivers do use TC if you listen to the engines on TV even in qualifying most of the cars are firing on less than 8 cylinders putting the power down.

Nitemare

22nd April 2006, 13:40

btw, in 2008 TC wil be banned from F1, so i'm looking forward to proper 2008 F1 without TC in LFS :)

TC = traction control right ?
Pardon me for the silly question, but can someone briefly explain what it does exactly ?
And, most important, if you have TC on in the BF1, will it make you faster or slower, or does that depend on track/car ?it reduces engine power on turn exit, so you don't spin... in f1 it also keeps tires at optimum slip angle (angle between tyre and direction of movement) to have maximum grip... so yes, it should be faster

JeffR

22nd April 2006, 14:09

In Indy Racing League - traction control is driver adjustable during a race.

As posted racing traction control systems allow optimal slippage, something very tough to do for a real life drive. Depending on the track it's worth a few seconds per lap even with an expert driver. Obviously it's possible to race without traction control but it's more prone to incidents and a tad slower.

No lift fast sequential shifters, like XTRAC, which shift in 30ms to 50ms (depending on rpm drop), shave off a few seconds per lap as well. LFS doesn't model these though, even though F1 cars have them.

JeffR

22nd April 2006, 14:21

TC = traction control right ?yes.

explain what it does exactlyTraction control can be ECU and/or brake based. Each wheel of a car may have speed sensors on them depending on the series. Without sensors all around, the rate of rpm acceleration is monitored by the ECU.

What a racing traction control system does is reduce engine power and/or apply individual wheel braking if it detects that a tire is slipping beyond a preset amount of allowed slippage. Small computers peform this function, just like the ECU in any car is actually a small computer.

Many racing classes, like FIA F1 don't allow braking to be used for traction control, so only the engine control is done. Usually fuel is cut off from one or more cylinders to reduce engine power.

In the racing classes that allow individual braking, in addition to engine management, the brakes distribute rear wheel torque in an optimal way beyond what a limited slip differential could do. It can also provide some ABS like control at the front on RWD cars, but unlike true ABS, it allows for optimal slippage instead of none.

And, most important, if you have TC on in the BF1, will it make you faster or slower, or does that depend on track/car ?Racing traction control systems will produce better lap times. A human can't match the millisecond reaction time of a computer and sensors.

jtw62074

22nd April 2006, 16:09

I really like the TC, actually. What we really have now is another setup parameter to adjust. For all practical purposes I'm finding I'm adjusting the slip percentage in the way I adjust the power side differential setting in the other cars, and am using the engine braking parameter just like the coast side diff setting.

To me, this doesn't ruin anything having to do with driving skill at all, as raising the traction control slip percentage makes you accelerate faster out of the corners, but makes the car more oversteery in those situations, very much like what you get when you move towards a more locked differential. I think we'll find the fast guys using higher and higher slip percentage here, which is essentially less and less traction control in a way (although not literally).

Don't be afraid to fiddle with that engine braking parameter, folks. Reducing the percentage a lot makes a dramatic change in off-throttle turn in, increasing it a lot, even more so it seems than reducing coast side diff settings in the other cars. In fact, I haven't even touched the diff in the BF1 yet. So far all I've played with are wings and these other two settings.

I'm having a ball though for sure. This patch has really pushed the physics forward dramatically with the fixes in the tire model :thumb:

chunkyracer

23rd April 2006, 13:52

Just finished watching the Imola Grand Prix, and a time during the battle between Alonso and Shumacher, they´re showing images from inside the Renault and displaying the car information, and the light of Traction Control just kept flashing... So, if the F1 world champion uses Traction Control, why shouldn't we?...:thumb: