Physics still FUBAR

[Dethred]

Ok, they are better, I grant you that, but maybe a few more releases and it'll be fixed. I just drifted the BF1 on the Race 2 or whatever the setup below default on Blackwood GP at the turn at the end of the straight. I drifted it all the way around the corner. Now either the physics are still really messed up or I need to schedule a tryout with BMW's F1 team.

And please don't be foolish and say its the setup, any >2000lb 700+hp open wheel car on racing slicks would realistically be almost impossible to drift even for a professional driver.

Its a step in the right direction, but seriously, why not ask Kunos what he does to get it right?

[Blowtus]

seems like a stupidly inflammatory post, but I agree that I was hoping for more out of the bf1. The tyres still exhibit the characteristic lfs float without bite, though there is definately 'more' bite now.

[Dethred]

Actually the first bit of inflaming comments was when you said "stupidly", Congrats hypocrite.

[Bob Smith]

Dunno, haven't tried the BF1 yet, but all my sets understeer to hell now, so easy to drift cars now. Almost too easy. :( Maybe some really loose sets will make things more entertaining again.

[Niels Heusinkveld]

I don't think there have been much fundamental changes made. The biggest one is that the tyres are a big more grippy in longitudinal direction and a bit less in lateral. This means that it takes a bit more 'right foot' or wildness before..... the same old happens. Big scary "BMW would never allow any of their road cars in LFS" style. And while it might be slightly less quickly oversteering away from you on regular turn in / exit, a quick slalom type course shows that you have a lot of rear end catching to do, roughly the same problem that plagues LFS since S1. It seems that you can't tweak something that is flawed somewhere and make it better.

I really like that they got a real F1 car in there, lets hope it'll boost license sales as the devs deserve that.

If nothing changes in the (considerable) brain of Scawen, then I don't think LFS will have really good tyres (or whatever is wrong now) even with S3.

Then again, if this boosts sales, lets hope Scawen does a Kaemmer and does some race schools in a variety of cars, with aim of comparing it to the sim. Perhaps Michelin can be tricked into more than supplying their name.. The future is still bright, but I don't have my shades handy as the chance I need em is slim..

[Tweaker]

You think a drift is impossible in an F1 car? Blah... Let Kimi demonstrate for you sir: www.kolumbus.fi/akiaki/kimi.avi


That is about a 160mph turn at Spa..... I think you can save your trip to BMW ;)

[Mlod]

OK but show me a video where F1 car have a big drift under braking and dont lose any time. Its possible to drift going into T1 in BF under braking and drift throught the corner and dont lose time

I have to agree with Niels. The "new" tire physics feels like the same physics only with tweaked values. Its not bad but I really hoped that it will improve much more...

[spyshagg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHj9feF6lCw&search=piquet

piquet drifting around senna... its possible.

If its easy to drift BF1, i'll give you reason :)

[Mlod]

double post

[Tweaker]

I don't see how people think it is only a minor step. Old version had grip levels BEYOND realism (could pull G's higher than actual cars could), PLUS the lateral grip was terrible causing people to slide out a lot. Combine those two, and you had a crappy tire code.

Right now, it feels very equal, and very nice to me. Low-speed grip is still somewhat of an issue, but not as bad. I think this is a good step forward, and if you went and drove the old P/Q version right now, you'd see how much better it is.

And the fact that the BF1 can drift in some corners doesn't mean everything is completely "FUBAR", F1 drivers do some long slides all the time at high speeds. But whatever, the game can only get better, and so far this is a good step forward.

[Dethred]

You think a drift is impossible in an F1 car? Blah... Let Kimi demonstrate for you sir: www.kolumbus.fi/akiaki/kimi.avi (http://www.kolumbus.fi/akiaki/kimi.avi)


That is about a 160mph turn at Spa..... I think you can save your trip to BMW ;)

Oh sweet Jesus, did you read my Post??? Apparently you're saying that I have as much talent as a professional F1 driver?

I guess I'll take that as a compliment.

[Tweaker]

any >2000lb 700+hp open wheel car on racing slicks would realistically be almost impossible to drift even for a professional driver.

Well I read that, and it clearly states that you think it is almost impossible for a professional driver to drift an F1 car. When there are occurances of this all the time.

Still I know what you mean, the car will want to do slides that aren't even 'drifts', they are just long burnouts at a not-so-extreme angle. The downforce and stuff seems to be the reason why imo.

[SamH]

IMO, the improvements are absolutely massive. I feel even more in touch with the way the cars are handling, and I don't find myself thinking "WTF?" with the vehicles' behaviour.

I also think that unless you ARE an F1 driver, and have personal first-hand experience of how one might handle, with the same setup as you have in your LFS sim, you can NOT BEGIN to determine what is and what is NOT realistic simulation in LFS, particularly and specifically within 4 hours of your first opportunity to try it.

I believe that the BMW/Sauber have had a significant input into the handling of the F1 in LFS. I also believe that BMW/Sauber have been keen to help achieve an unprecedented level of realism in LFS. I think it's more realistic than your preconcieved notions permit YOU to believe. The shortfall is, I think, yours.

[fizzer]

Its possible to drift going into T1 in BF under braking and drift throught the corner and dont lose time

Lol, if you're doing that in lfs and not losing time, then you're not going fast enough in the first place ;)

F1 cars can drift all you want, they don't because its risky and slow.

[sinbad]

Not had enough miles to form a true opinion, but I've just given the LX4 a go round Aston North, and the changes seem to be very significant indeed. It feels planted like never before, not on rails, but like there's a finer line between grip and slip. It also feels slightly underpowered now! Which I suppose it really should, and yet it's still a lot of fun. Requires small adjustments as you teeter on the limit of grip but the right pedal alone isn't enough to boot the tail out anymore, in most situations.

So far, I likes.

[Dethred]

IMO, the improvements are absolutely massive. I feel even more in touch with the way the cars are handling, and I don't find myself thinking "WTF?" with the vehicles' behaviour.

I also think that unless you ARE an F1 driver, and have personal first-hand experience of how one might handle, with the same setup as you have in your LFS sim, you can NOT BEGIN to determine what is and what is NOT realistic simulation in LFS, particularly and specifically within 4 hours of your first opportunity to try it.

I believe that the BMW/Sauber have had a significant input into the handling of the F1 in LFS. I also believe that BMW/Sauber have been keen to help achieve an unprecedented level of realism in LFS. I think it's more realistic than your preconcieved notions permit YOU to believe. The shortfall is, I think, yours.

You're right, F1 is easy, so easy I can drift an F1 car. Please take your argument, or lack thereof, somewhere else. This thread is for intelligent criticism.

For the record, where has it been established that any F1 driver has given the physics a thumbs up? eh? So basically you're saying that the the players and the devs, having not driven an F1 car, have no idea what is right or wrong. So you're saying the physics still aren't correct then, right?

Netkar, for instance, is extremely difficult to drive some of their cars on the limit, as difficult as driving a real car on the limit. No slow slides and slow losses of grip.

Again, this is a step in the right direction, I was simply expecting more. It seems each attempt at updating the physics goes like this:

1.) Devs claim seriously upgraded physics
2.) Players claim they are perfect
3.) Players begin realizing they are not.
4.) Devs release a new patch with upgraded physics
5.) Players say they are perfect.
6.) Players slowly realize problems with the physics
7.) Devs work on it further. etc.

I have seen this cycle happen 3-4 separate times since the early demo days.

[Tweaker]

Forgot to add:

8.) The usual person that comes in the forum to complain about the physics after only a few hours of testing the game, thus not giving a complete look at the game, or thinking of possible reasons.

I mean, just because you did some long drift in the BF1, wow, omg, lets go post that it is the tires that is incorrect!!!! That's it!! Come on now, as much as it may seem wrong to you, back some of the things up, or think what else could be at fault here. You say you don't want us to say it is your set, but look at reasons why the car is quite easy to drift. For one, the TC on this car is godly, controls JUST the right amount of throttle when in a slide, and you can hold it quite easily. For all I care, it could be the TC that is wrong, or too invicible so to speak. It feels like the old Keyboard S1 days, where a keyboarder could hold super long drifts with no effort.

I am just more inclined that it is the computer aids taking part in this. Try drifting with no TC, not very easy, and it is just a power-slide that is hardly controllable.

[Dethred]

Forgot to add:

8.) The usual person that comes in the forum to complain about the physics after only a few hours of testing the game, thus not giving a complete look at the game, or thinking of possible reasons.

I mean, just because you did some long drift in the BF1, wow, omg, lets go post that it is the tires that is incorrect!!!! That's it!! Come on now, as much as it may seem wrong to you, back some of the things up, or think what else could be at fault here. You say you don't want us to say it is your set, but look at reasons why the car is quite easy to drift. For one, the TC on this car is godly, controls JUST the right amount of throttle when in a slide, and you can hold it quite easily. For all I care, it could be the TC that is wrong, or too invicible so to speak. It feels like the old Keyboard S1 days, where a keyboarder could hold super long drifts with no effort.

I am just more inclined that it is the computer aids taking part in this. Try drifting with no TC, not very easy, and it is just a power-slide that is hardly controllable.

The other cars feel similar to the last patch. Yes they hold grip a lot better but the manner in which they lose control is nothing like real life. There is no sense of urgency and its still relatively easy to gain control. In real life the average driver losing control from going around a turn will not be able to gain control, and if they do it will be sloppy. There just seems to be no sudden panic from the back end stepping out. Maybe its the force feedback not slacking up when the wheels slip or something. All I know is Netkar is still the closest in getting that real sense of being on the edge and a sense of "oh CRAP" when you push it too far.

[KiDCoDEa]

Ok, they are better, I grant you that, but maybe a few more releases and it'll be fixed. why not ask Kunos what he does to get it right?

does jack nicholson ask britney how to act?

[KiDCoDEa]

Not had enough miles to form a true opinion, but I've just given the LX4 a go round Aston North, and the changes seem to be very significant indeed. It feels planted like never before, not on rails, but like there's a finer line between grip and slip. It also feels slightly underpowered now! Which I suppose it really should, and yet it's still a lot of fun. Requires small adjustments as you teeter on the limit of grip but the right pedal alone isn't enough to boot the tail out anymore, in most situations.

So far, I likes.

try the lx4 on long rev. a blast ;)

[KiDCoDEa]

I have seen this cycle happen 3-4 separate times since the early demo days.

shame you are too thick to understand why people rejoice at steps given in the right direction towards reality, and also fail miserabily to aknowledge that something that is still being developed with further complexity, stage after stage patch after patch, halfway through the climb to the S3 final pinnacle, cannot be criticized for what it is simply as if it was a final product, but especially for where its going, since this is after all, just a WIP (work in progress release) and dats how they fund their developement, giving us all transparent enjoyment and a word in its dev.

even so, and even being in halfway done state, lfs already is the best sim overall for me (only a few areas where n2003 is still better). so if incomplete its like this, i can only hope for some real kickass shit in the end.

[Blackout]

Fine, go play your nKp** the professional online racing simulation with superduper online gameplay and super physics as promised if you really dont enjoy LFS. Cya :)

[JTbo]

If someone says that some area of sim is not yet quite realistic, it does not mean that he dislikes from it.

Realism and good gameplay are two completely separate things. Also if car feels fun to drive it has nothing to do with realism, but giving constructive critic is not meaning that product is bad also it does not mean that person dislikes from it.

You need to understand that it is not black and white world, fanboys here think that if someone say that there is further developing for example in tires that anyone who say it is whiner and not liking lfs, but you know it is not that way, I like a lot from lfs still I say that tire physics have not addressed biggest issue yet, also I feel that tires are now more arcade feeling, but it does not mean that I don't like lfs.

It is old fashioned and simple (you may add childish here) way to think that one should either hate it or love it without any other opinion, I think that there was some country that did try to make everyone to think only one way, however guess what happened :D

[filur]

Got the patch, drove a new PB on Kyoto GP / XRR, struggled at Blackwood in the XRT. Summary, race car behaves more like a race car, road car more like a road car, great. :)

[benman]

well i think the update is awsome and good progress!

I cant reli critisise it in anyway becuz im too young to drive, but from the basis of how fun it is to play and race with others, its a good update!

[mrodgers]

In real life the average driver losing control from going around a turn will not be able to gain control, and if they do it will be sloppy.
In real live, the average driver will loose control because the average driver will panic and slam the brakes on rather than doing a correct countersteer and throttling the car back under control. So far in the LX6 I briefly drove, I was still able to spin the car out. But under much smaller loss of control, where I would spin with no recovery in patch P/Q, I was able to correctly countersteer and work the throttle to regain control.

You need to understand that it is not black and white world, fanboys here think that if someone say that there is further developing for example in tires that anyone who say it is whiner and not liking lfs, but you know it is not that way, I like a lot from lfs still I say that tire physics have not addressed biggest issue yet, also I feel that tires are now more arcade feeling, but it does not mean that I don't like lfs.
With the title of the thread, "Physics still FUBAR", I don't think the discussion started with someone saying that "there is further developing" to do. It certainly sounds like whining and complaining to me.

[slow-magic]

what would you know about F1 cars i mean its not like you ever drivin one
your post is weak and i think you should go play something like Need for speed that would suit your style.
i think the patch is a great big step forward into LFS Future and iam more
than happy with what they have done with the patch good job DEV keep up the good work look forward to S3 :-)
Best Racing sim ive played in 7 years.

[Dygear]

Last year at france, in qualifying a Minardi did a nice drft, forgot who the driver was.

[Hyperactive]

Or schumacher at bahrain quali few (?) years ago in the slow corner where you brake and turn in at the same time (we need few more those in LFS :razz: )

[TagForce]

Last year at france, in qualifying a Minardi did a nice drft, forgot who the driver was.

Must've been a dutch driver, and you can't really use those as an example of proper driving :D

Physics have improved in the way the car behaves more predictable while cornering. Braking and turning in is still a bit dodgy, but once your settled in the corner, it's a lot better. I'd even go as far as to say I couldn't enjoy the LX6 in Q, because it was so tail happy, and with S I might consider making it my new favorite car, because now the slides and power oversteer happen when I'd expect them to.

[Blowtus]

the fact that people can point to specific instances of 'f1 drifting' would seem to imply it's not particularly commonplace :) Seems much more normal to see a spin, whereas in lfs it's more normal (for me) to pull off a big slide and recover.
I love the game, and this doesn't particularly worry me, but it is a fair point imho.

[Tube]

Again, this is a step in the right direction, I was simply expecting more. It seems each attempt at updating the physics goes like this:

1.) Devs claim seriously upgraded physics
2.) Players claim they are perfect
3.) Players begin realizing they are not.
4.) Devs release a new patch with upgraded physics
5.) Players say they are perfect.
6.) Players slowly realize problems with the physics
7.) Devs work on it further. etc.

I have seen this cycle happen 3-4 separate times since the early demo days.

"welcome to the world of software development!"

[Hankstar]

... and that was the sound of a nail being hit on the head :D

That process listed in Dethred's quote sure sounds a lot better than something like: "devs claim upgraded physics, players claim they are perfect, players begin realising they're not, devs don't listen to players, game does not progress at all, players play something else, devs go on the dole".

This patch is a definite improvement. I don't think anyone could realistically expect everything to have been perfected in a single patch. Most people seem to like these improvements and appreciate the devs' work, and will play LFS happily until a new patch is needed.

I think Dethred's phrase "...this is a step in the right direction, I was simply expecting more..." says it all really. If we load ourselves up with high expectations then we're more likely to be disappointed. I'm not having a go at you Dethred, but what you said is exactly the point with software patches. All I wanted was a tyre improvement and an aero improvement, not perfection. What I got was a tyre improvement, an aero improvement, an F1 car and some other cool stuff. So I'm satisfied.

For now :D

[colcob]

Well, I'm just glad that this version of vBulletin finally has an ignore feature so I never have to read one of Dethred's posts ever again.

Sheesh, even arch lfs-basher BMX32 is loving the new patch.

[BWX232]

Well, I'm just glad that this version of vBulletin finally has an ignore feature so I never have to read one of Dethred's posts ever again.

Sheesh, even arch lfs-basher BMX32 is loving the new patch.

LOL-- Now that's funny.. I never bashed LFS. I always say I like it, but I didn't like a few of the characteristics of the physics.. and then of course people would argue about it with me..

No sim is perfect (maybe RBR has come the closest?), but LFS has definitely improved a lot now.. It is definitely fun as hell now, and that crazy "going loose and staying loose" bug is gone in most cars and you feel more connected to the car. The Force feedback alone is worth the price.

[BenH]

Here's my take on the soft physics...

I think a lot of it has to do with how close to the limit you are in the first place. I did a couple of hours last night at KYGPlong in the FZR ... and at first the physics did seem "softer" as if I didn't need to be as accurate when on the limit ... and being able to maintain and recover big drifts more easily etc.

But after updating my set, and then getting my times down by another 3 seconds -- which was the new limit for me and these physics -- I was again having to be super accurate when on the limit.

The thing is the F1 guys are driving so quick (extreme loads through ALL stages of the corner AND perfectly balanced loads front/back ) that having the car step out is usually fatal.

HOWEVER ... I bet if you got them to do some testing, lapping at a slower pace, they would be able to induce and maintain the drifts you are talking about (or at least comparable).

See what you think of the drifting when you've taken your times down by a few seconds and you're really operating at your maximum through all stages of the turn. I think you'll find it starts to feel more real.

Just my thoughts...

Ben

PS. A real life example: I raced GP125's (bikes) when I was in my teens. If you've ever seen GP125's you'll know that they don't lend themselves to drifting (thin tyres, light weight, stiff suspension ... nothing like 500's or superbikes) ... HOWEVER, when I was first learning I got into some BIG front end drifts on a number of occassion. 4th/5th gear ... the type where the bars start to turn to lock for a good few seconds ... really scrubing the front until you wash off enough speed for it to correct.

This had nothing to do with any talent on my part, it was simply that the bike wasn't balanced correctly. So although the front was pushed over the limit, it was done at sub maximum lean angles and with traction to spare at the rear. The result is a drift that I could maintain ... AND on machinery that you would not normally see drifting.

Fact is, as I got quicker and was loading the bike more evenly, with higher speeds and lean angles through all parts of the turn, drifts like that became impossible. At truly maximum loads there's simply no way you can take a big step over the limit without it costing in a big way -- either you spin (or low/high side) or you run so wide you go off, or lose excessive time.

If you're able to maintain the racing line whilst in a drift, it would suggest to me that the car wasn't fully loaded and balanced before you went into the drift.

Some food for thought perhaps

[silent_wind]

my 0,2 €... the tires might not be perfect or as perfect as some have expected, but , they just feel "right" to me..the car is more predictable now and it certainly a positive thing no matter what... and for some unhappy dudes here , dont forget it's still labeled "ALPHA"...

[Viper93]

I agreee with BenH on this, start running times faster and I think you will notice the "ohh Crap" feeling a bit more, I know I do.

No I don't think it's perfect, but it feels alot better, much closer to how it feels in my car when I am pushing it, with roughly the same feeling in the wheel. I like Nk, but I think they have a ways to go before they are close to LFS IMO.

[inCogNito]

just another nice little drift:
http://rapidshare.de/files/5054371/F1_2005_R16_Belgium_Villeneuve_Slide.avi.html


Oh, it's a sauber! Coincindence? :scratchch ;)

[wark]

If one thinks the physics are "FUBAR," then any post complaining about it is per se pointless bashing spam.

:feedtroll

[al heeley]

...agreed, especially when the thread then starts diverting into a contest about who knows the most about F1 racing...:pillepall

[BWX232]

Well since FUBAR means F'd up beyond all repair... then that is really stupid, because obviously they are far from that.. If anything they need small tweaks still- FAR from FUBAR.

[deggis]

No sim is perfect (maybe RBR has come the closest?)
Ditto! :D Of course there's pretty long fault list in RBR too (too light mass in the cars, tarmac behaviour and "wheels are spinning ON/OFF" weirdness especially on tarmac) but you can't really argue about RBR's greatness because there's no other games that you could compare it. Or maybe LFS's RB4 on rally tracks comes to closest, but even that feels so "Sega Rally" after RBR. :)

[JJ72]

You're right, F1 is easy, so easy I can drift an F1 car. Please take your argument, or lack thereof, somewhere else. This thread is for intelligent criticism....

If you honestly think your initial thread is one of scientific approach and rational criticism I honestly urge you to have a brain check.

Basically what you are saying is that you don't believe a F1 car should behave that way, while some other people believe it should, however there was no sign of real substance that you raised to support your thesis, other than "you don't think it's right"

Now I have no problem with people being disatisfied with LFS however putting it in improvement suggestion forum and saying it's a FUBAR is just off unless you come prepared with some solid support.

If you really do think you have a valid point then i think your logic has gone FUBAR.

[axus]

I think the reason why this sometimes happens in the BF1 is because of sideways aero not being simulate - think about it. When you corner technically you have a different coeficient of drag and a different frontal area. This should push you back in line when you are drifting like that but it is a VERY difficult thing to simulate, possibly the best way to do it being to only simulate the effect of frontal area increase.

[JJ72]

I can't imagine that though, to push the car back in line means you are having more drag at the rear than the front, hence the rear gets pushed faster than the front back in line, that's not a theory that I can recall I have ever heard of.

[axus]

Put it this way, you should have more drag at the back than you currently have.

[wheel4hummer]

When you corner technically you have a different coeficient of drag and a different frontal area.

Exactly, so the faster you are going, it is also harder to oversteer.

This applies to all cars, because all cars have LOTS of drag when sideways. Either that, or this is due to the tires

[axus]

Exactly, so when you start sliding sideways, you have drag which helps keep the car from spinning. It's hard to explain what I mean. But, the faster you are going, it is harder to oversteer and easier to recover*.

*What I mean, by easier to recover is that you wouldn't have to turn the steering wheel as much.

This applies to all cars, because all cars have LOTS of drag when sideways.

Yes, but this doesn't happen in LFS so adding this would decrease slides at high speed. As for the recovery, sometimes the actual slide is caused by diff settings and these diff settings also help bring it back. Its hard to explain but a deep technical analysis would show this I think.

[tristancliffe]

In real life the yaw angle in a slide makes the wings extremely inefficient, and they lose masses of downforce, especially at the rear. Thus the drivers drive on the limit of traction, not the limit of sliding off the track.

LFS just isn't complex enough YET to model this, the undertray effects, ground effect of the front wing etc. The lack of sliding in an F1 car is nothing to do with the drag at theback pushing it into line again...

[Dethred]

You guys are right, I concede. Because you showed video proof of the best drivers in the world drifting the F1 cars, I must concede that anyone can.

Further more, even though the FZ50 hasn't really changed at all, and has to pretty much be drifted around a track, and can be by anyone with a few minutes of practice (Just like in Real life right???), the physics are great!

And you're also right, that the thread title is so inflamatory that reading the well reasoned contents of the first post are beyond each and every one of you.

And I am 100% right when I say that you people that blindly say each and every physics improvement is correct even though there are big changes are insane. You guys are the reason the devs haven't seen it fit to overhaul the physics to the level of Netkar, because each time they develop an improvement it takes months before people get the balls to criticize anything, and months after that for them to convince the devs that they were wrong in saying that S1's (for example) physics were right.

[AndroidXP]

Well, you didn't really think making a thread that says physics are still "f*cked up beyond all recognition" earns you any respect or starts a serious debate, did you?

Now you get all sarcastic "oh all you fanboys" but what reaction do you think would happen if I'd go to <insert your favourite sim>'s forum and say their physics model is f*cked up? What you did was an insult, not starting a meaningful debate. And is there anything backing up your claims besides "I say so"?

Maybe it's better if you just leave these forums and LFS alltogether and go to your beloved nKP, because this non-constructive kind of criticism doesn't help anyone at all. But if you start to realise that nKP is far from perfect either, don't use the same form of criticism like here - I heard they don't let that much go through on RSC.

[/rant]

[Greboth]

And I am 100% right when I say that you people that blindly say each and every physics improvement is correct even though there are big changes are insane. You guys are the reason the devs haven't seen it fit to overhaul the physics to the level of Netkar, because each time they develop an improvement it takes months before people get the balls to criticize anything, and months after that for them to convince the devs that they were wrong in saying that S1's (for example) physics were right.

From everythin ive read on here, hardly anyone is saying the physics are perfect. Everyone is saying that the physics are better than they were before the patch. I agree the physics are better, they are not perfect but they are better. From all ive read in this thread alone people are saying the physics are good and are better than pre patch physics. Everyone is replying to the the fact it was said the physics are fubar. This is not saying the patch is perfect, this is saying the patch is an update and is better.

IMHO the physics are better, i feel more connected to the road so to speak. I havent really had much time to play lfs since the patch, so i havent really found the limit either. And so i havent reli got a conclusion or a good feel for the physics. But i think you have to agree they are a step in the right direction.

[Gargantula]

Its a step in the right direction, but seriously, why not ask Kunos what he does to get it right?

Who is Kunos?

[zeugnimod]

The developer of nKPro.

[Gargantula]

I didn't even know what FUBAR meant before, but yes I agree that using that acronym is not intelligent criticism especially in the world of journalist writing.

Alright, I read every single post in this thread and the conclusion I come to is that none of us, including me, should complain or rate the physics unless we have personally driven F1 cars in racing conditions (meaning driving to the limits of the car on a track).

The closest thing I can think of having a decent racing experience is to attend Skip Barber Racing School 3 day at your local track (Around $3000) license session and then race in the races they hold for the licensed racers to gain experience.

I am just a wannabe racing driver, when I play simulation racing games, so I do not want to add fuel to the fire. I do not have the credentials to rate the physics to the point of being nitpicky, but I can generally rate it in terms of the limited experience I have had.

Eventually, I plan to go into the racing world in real life, but it's so hard to do so. You need money, connections with people in the industry, skills and a bit of luck. That is probably why people bought this simulation game because of the cost difference of doing it in real life, but please don't be so nitpicky about the racing physics in any game unless you have had extensive experience doing it in real life.

The only racing experience I have is driving my dinky car to the limit when no other car is around and the racing drifting go karts at www.ssspeedways.com (http://www.ssspeedways.com). I have a neck injury from the fact that let kids drive these fast, heavy (for a go kart), dirfting cars from a heads on collision that still bothers me even from doing that last December. I was so angry at the ~8 year old looking kid, but that is another story.

I do agree that Richard Burns Rally (RBR) has some pretty darn good physics. When I watch the replays, my brain sometimes gets confused as whether this is a game. It's too bad that Eidos who bought SCi Games will not make any more patches since the family of Richard Burns did not want the game to be continued after his death. I found this out after contacting Eidos on further development of RBR.

I also think that Gran Turismo seriers needs to revamp the physics engine that is geared for the mass crowd. Especially when the box reads "The Real Driving Simulator". I still enjoy the game, though. The people who work at Polyphony Digital seem to love cars as much as we do from the tour videos I saw at IGN, but I think they are holding back. Maybe until PlayStation 3, when they have more power available to them to do complex physics calculations.

[deggis]

It's too bad that Eidos who bought SCi Games will not make any more patches since the family of Richard Burns did not want the game to be continued after his death. I found this out after contacting Eidos on further development of RBR.
What? :pillepall Eidos' reply to you really said so? That's some big bullshit from Eidos... Or course it's true that Richard Burns' death meant that we're not going to see a sequel to RBR, but I think it was pretty sure that there was never going to be a real sequel (or probably the publisher SCi Games could have done some arcade rally game called RBR2, just to make some money with a good name). SCi games was just the publisher but the dev team Warthog was bought by Gizmondo portable console company last year (and the Gizmondo company made a bankrupt recently). Last RBR patch was released in year 2004, after the game's PC release. I think RBR just didn't sell well enough which lead to this. The dev team had some big troubles with the publisher. I've understood from I've read that publisher wanted it to be a way more arcadish game, so we must be very glad that it even turned out to be one of the greatest sims ever.

But luckily the RBR physics guru Eero Piitulainen is making a new sime called Racecom (http://www.bhmotorsports.com/RCOM). Not rally game though but we'll hear about that in the future... :thumb:

Sorry, I know this was off topic but that Eidos' bullshit reply was just so interesting.

[Becky Rose]

as difficult as driving a real car on the limit.
I'm too lazy to read all of this post this late at night so I appologise now if my argument has already been raised.

Driving a real car on the limit is not difficult. If you have experienced it, you can do it again, in another car and on another track is just a matter of a bit of top up practice.

However every persons limit is different and there's no such this as "the fastest possible limit".

As for the original argument, show a replay of you drifting a BF1 and posting the same sector times as you can drive it normally. That will backup your argument.

I'm then totally confident that some smug git will post a replay that makes you look like a muppet.

Sorry. -1

The physics may not be perfect, infact I think i've got too much grip now, but they're damned good.

[Blowtus]

Driving a real car on the limit is not difficult. If you have experienced it, you can do it again, in another car and on another track is just a matter of a bit of top up practice.

Dethred is talking about going over the limit. Some cars this is very straightforward, others can bite fairly hard. Every car in LFS is very easy to regather after a slide, the mrt is probably the most challenging.

[JTbo]

Dethred is talking about going over the limit. Some cars this is very straightforward, others can bite fairly hard. Every car in LFS is very easy to regather after a slide, the mrt is probably the most challenging.

Yes, road cars specially are too, hmm, stable? when sliding and as speed reduces it seem to slide until stops, slide should stop before speed, imo. Of course some situations it stops sliding before car stops but rarely, also 180-degree handbrake turn is one that feels wrong, somehow slow and dull.

Road cars also are too easy at limit, don't know why but here again too stable, any car manufacturer would really be proud if his low cost pocket rocket would have such handling at high speeds and when pulling that 1g at corners.

F1 cars and those I'm not even very interested, haven't driven those so can't really say anything, fast hands needed that is needed in reallife.

With old version we had road cars that were not so stable at high speeds, specially braking into corner was good, but now car feels bit glued to track.

I must say that for me it feels now more arcade, but I can't say that it is not improved also I can't say if those are improved, maybe improved yes but something else needs improving too to get this improvement to work properly.

[Blowtus]

the dynamics are definately much improved... it probably feels a little easy because the 'bad physics' that made it hard before are improved, but the 'bad physics' that make it easy to control are still around. As far as I can see anyway.

[JJ72]

Dethred is talking about going over the limit. Some cars this is very straightforward, others can bite fairly hard. Every car in LFS is very easy to regather after a slide, the mrt is probably the most challenging.

I dunno about the car with slicks, but for the road cars it's pretty much right, if you consider the fact that they are on a generic "race" setting, and the lack of chassis flex/aerodynamic inconsistency in LFS. Cars like GTi and RB4 are indeed very straight foward, however the rear wheel drive cars especially the FZ5 is quite challenging when you try to modulate the weight tranfer with the brakes, a slight difference in input does make the difference between a nice positioned turn or an off balanced one, and if you push really hard all car exhibits such sensitivity although to a different degree.

[Blowtus]

no, you're missing the point. I agree that the 'normal' driving aspects feel pretty damn good, requires care to balance it well for fast times. I also see Dethred's point that slide correction isn't violent enough, tyres tend to stop sliding gently instead of suddenly. Don't see why he makes such a big fuss about it, the racing is still fantastic, and the right things still have to be done for fast times, but it does seem like a fair point.

[Gargantula]

Sorry, I know this was off topic but that Eidos' bullshit reply was just so interesting.

Yeah, I figured they just didn't want to do RBR ever again and that family thing was an excuse. It sucks that all that crap happenned to the developer and the pubilsher. I would have loved to see the sim continue onward to another installment.

[inCogNito]

Its a step in the right direction, but seriously, why not ask Kunos what he does to get it right?


all i'm asking kunos is to give me my money back!

but i guess he is too busy to answer because he is trying to "get it right" and it's such a long way to go... :pillepall

[Dethred]

all i'm asking kunos is to give me my money back!

but i guess he is too busy to answer because he is trying to "get it right" and it's such a long way to go... :pillepall

Um, who cares? Kunos at least has the physics down pat. He didn't hype the sound system and some of the other things, reviews did that for him.

[tristancliffe]

Dethred, read Kunos' developer diaries - he hyped them pretty all he could get away with in them!

[TDSyco]

With the title of the thread, "Physics still FUBAR", I don't think the discussion started with someone saying that "there is further developing" to do. It certainly sounds like whining and complaining to me.

Same as i thought reading this ...