New Physics...

[tommy10101]

I was just wondering, will the new phisics and tyre updates make significant differences or will it be smaller and less noticible. :scratchch

[JTbo]

Hehe, I think this is hype thread too, my secret plan is to post every one of them some nonsence :D

Soon we see how it is changed, just wait, go out, write letter to president or do some stupid, when evening comes, you will know ;)

[tommy10101]

lol....i just cant wait :schwitz::)

[JJ72]

I think it'll quite big, like when we jump from S1 to S2.

and it's going to be HOLAAAAAAAAAAA great.

[maxwolfie!]

I wonder how us drifters will be affected.. :shrug:

Time will tell

Hopefully less rather than more :)

(thread 102)

[speedfreak227]

i'm hoping that instead of sliding once a tire goes past its max grip, you'll feel the sidewall flex before it's about to slide.

speedfreak227

[Tweaker]

feel the sidewall flex before it slides???? :really:

Goodness, last time I felt something like that was when I was driving my old Jeep and it had a flat in one of my high profile offroad tires.

If you are going to feel ANYTHING flex, it will be from the front tires, the rear tires don't flex and give you a sign, it is the movement of the car (weight transfer vs. speed vs. throttle/brake).

[BWX232]

I think it will be a big change, and will make LFS more accurate. I hope so anyway.

[[RCG]Boosted]

i just hope, its like in real u can actually save the back when u drift.
not like now when u drift and try to get it back u just keep drifting :P
well see anyway... i expect some nice changes ;)

[speedfreak227]

feel the sidewall flex before it slides???? :really:

Goodness, last time I felt something like that was when I was driving my old Jeep and it had a flat in one of my high profile offroad tires.

If you are going to feel ANYTHING flex, it will be from the front tires, the rear tires don't flex and give you a sign, it is the movement of the car (weight transfer vs. speed vs. throttle/brake).

when i took my datsun 240z on a high speed run between two cities and over 1100kms i was able to feel the back end wiggling as the tire sidewall flexed. we can't all afford low profile rubber. if you look at the pictures of the lx4/6 and the little compact car on the teaser page you can see quite a bit of tire sidewal flex. if that was real you'd be able to feel it.

speedfreak227

[Gabkicks]

i.... cant sleep... i cant sleep...i.... cant sleep... i cant sleep...i.... cant sleep... i cant sleep...i.... cant sleep... i cant sleep...i.... cant sleep... i cant sleep...i.... cant sleep... i cant sleep...i.... cant sleep... i cant sleep...i.... cant sleep... i cant sleep...i.... cant sleep... i cant sleep...i.... cant sleep... i cant sleep...:tired::hyper::tired::hyper::zombie:

[[RCG]Boosted]

welcome in my world :razz:
uptime now like 20 hours...oh dear.

[JTbo]

when i took my datsun 240z on a high speed run between two cities and over 1100kms i was able to feel the back end wiggling as the tire sidewall flexed. we can't all afford low profile rubber. if you look at the pictures of the lx4/6 and the little compact car on the teaser page you can see quite a bit of tire sidewal flex. if that was real you'd be able to feel it.

speedfreak227

I have 185/60/14 tires with rather soft sidewalls, when I'm on track (real life)sidewalls get scrubbed against road even I do have 3 bar pressure, so sure it can be felt, depends lot from tires of course, slicks have much more stronger body and they don't flex same way for example :)

[Stoegi]

Man, ppl seem to freak out because of this patch, threads everywhere:D


I'm looking forward too!

[BWX232]

when i took my datsun 240z on a high speed run between two cities and over 1100kms i was able to feel the back end wiggling as the tire sidewall flexed. we can't all afford low profile rubber. if you look at the pictures of the lx4/6 and the little compact car on the teaser page you can see quite a bit of tire sidewal flex. if that was real you'd be able to feel it.

speedfreak227
Yes and even low profile type tires will flex, just not as much obviously.. but they do flex when the G load is put on them and you can feel it.. They are not made out of steel after all- it is still rubber filled with air. I can't wait to try it out in LFS S2-R..

I'll tell you what.. these are the pictures that impress me most about the new patch and LFS in general.. forget about the new car, the new tire physics are what I am exited about.

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5946/tires44da.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/7939/tires11ce.jpg

You can see how the tires are realistically flexing under the strain of the car's inertia as they try to grip the road.. just like real life. That is f***ing cool. That is what I think is the biggest improvement in LFS in this patch.. more cars are great too, but I would rather have new tracks and new sounds.. Hopefully that will come in time too.

[BWX232]

I have 185/60/14 tires with rather soft sidewalls, when I'm on track (real life)sidewalls get scrubbed against road even I do have 3 bar pressure, so sure it can be felt, depends lot from tires of course, slicks have much more stronger body and they don't flex same way for example :)
My other car (wife's car) is a Nissan 200SX-SE-R and I have 215/50/15 tires on it. I can still feel the flex, but not as much.. My big 4000 pound boat of a car- the Lumina, has 225/60/15 tires on it, and you can definitely feel them flex under the mammoth car going around corners hard. A lot has to do with the pressure though, as you said- and the thickness of the sidewall.

[Tweaker]

But what I am saying is, the bodyroll and weight transfer has WAY more of this notable "feel" when you are in a turn and about to slide... it isn't entirely the sidewalls flexing that gives you the hint that you would be sliding :doh:.

If you run really weak and low pressure tires, yes you could feel that sloppyness, but that has more to do with the weight creating extreme amounts of loads that the tires cannot support.

Maybe I am thinking of it differently... because when you say "I feel the sidewalls flexing" that is somewhat of a mystery to me how people could say that, because the thing that controls the flexing is the weight transfer and causing the car to 'sag'. There is a point at which when you are cornering at a high force that your tires seem to go under so much stress that they give way, but the more the tires "flex" isn't felt, it is how extreme the weight becomes, and that is the main cue to giving you feedback for when the car slides.

[inCogNito]

You can see how the tires are realistically flexing under the strain of the car's inertia as they try to grip the road.. just like real life. That is f***ing cool. That is what I think is the biggest improvement in LFS in this patch..

but that's not new! :smileypul

it already does it in the current version...

[JTbo]

But what I am saying is, the bodyroll and weight transfer has WAY more of this notable "feel" when you are in a turn and about to slide... it isn't entirely the sidewalls flexing that gives you the hint that you would be sliding :doh:.

If you run really weak and low pressure tires, yes you could feel that sloppyness, but that has more to do with the weight creating extreme amounts of loads that the tires cannot support.

Maybe I am thinking of it differently... because when you say "I feel the sidewalls flexing" that is somewhat of a mystery to me how people could say that, because the thing that controls the flexing is the weight transfer and causing the car to 'sag'. There is a point at which when you are cornering at a high force that your tires seem to go under so much stress that they give way, but the more the tires "flex" isn't felt, it is how extreme the weight becomes, and there is without a doubt that anyone wouldn't feel that.

When I enter turn it felt bit like oversteer when sidewall flexes, chassis motion is around 3-4cm to outside of turn caused by tire flex, I know my tires sux, but that is how much it does and it can be felt everytime you enter to corner, it is kind of loose area.

[speedfreak227]

But what I am saying is, the bodyroll and weight transfer has WAY more of this notable "feel" when you are in a turn and about to slide... it isn't entirely the sidewalls flexing that gives you the hint that you would be sliding :doh:.

i agree with what you're saying, but once the car has taken it's "set" in the corner there isn't a lot of bodyroll or weight transfer that's going to change. at that point is when i was feeling the tire sidewall flexing.

the big question is, do i stay up and wait for its release or go to sleep knowing it'll be there when i wake up?

speedfreak227

[BWX232]

but that's not new! :smileypul

it already does it in the current version...

Yes but as I intemperate that (below), it will be much improved... and for me, I am thinking it will bring LFS up to a level not seen before in sim racing.

As it is now, it may do it, but it does not do it in a totally realistic way-especially at slow speeds you can feel this problem. - and also when you "lose" the tail end in a corner".. that's when really strange things happen.

By the sounds of it, the patch will include updates to the physics engine that will improve the overall feel and behavior of all the cars and hopefully go a long way to fixing the slow speed grip anomalies..

The way the tyres perform is the most important thing about the behaviour of any vehicle. If the tyres are wrong, you might as well forget about your nice suspension, rigid chassis and all the rest of it!



We have been on the case recently to meet this challenge and make sure each tyre behaves as realistically as possible, and as well as possible, under all those varying conditions



Live for Speed tyres have come on a long way recently. You can get the power down in a more controlled and realistic way. It's more fun to drive and after a small mistake, you are more likely to run wide and get yourself back on the line - losing a few seconds instead of losing the car completely
http://www.liveforspeed.net/?page=t_a_u

[deggis]

This line has sounded weird to my ears in a certain way...

"It's more fun to drive and after a small mistake, you are more likely to run wide and get yourself back on the line"

That says "small mistake" though but shouldn't it be actually more difficult to get the car back on the line after a bigger slide. In the current version you can cover from any kind of unrealistic slide if you just have enough road for that. I'd expect you'll run wide less often but once you do that you can't anymore cover from it after some totally unrealistic sliding in 30 km/h speed. :)

[LRB_Aly]

I think that you can't recover from every slide atm. Sure sometimes it's possible to recover a car at very high angles and it's true that it looks in some kind unrealistic but then again some slides are also caused by flaws in the physics. We shall look at the new patch, I'm excited to see how the cars behave then.

[JTbo]

Put dfp to 720 degrees and steering compensation to 0, then try recovering from slides, not easy at all.

[LRB_Aly]

BTW i'm gonna get my DFP today, anything I should take care of? I've read something about 2 FF modes here in the forum? Well and the steering compensation: Isn't it so that with 0 the wheel turns faster at low angles (or reacts in a more sensible way) then on higher and with 100 it's vice-versa? So shouldn't it be best if it's at 50?

[JTbo]

BTW i'm gonna get my DFP today, anything I should take care of? I've read something about 2 FF modes here in the forum? Well and the steering compensation: Isn't it so that with 0 the wheel turns faster at low angles (or reacts in a more sensible way) then on higher and with 100 it's vice-versa? So shouldn't it be best if it's at 50?

I think that 1 was where it turns faster and 0 where slower, 50 should be linear then, yes.

Look thread "buying dfp" somewhere in here, there is good info for you :)

[LRB_Aly]

Thanks man, i can't await it. Birthday, DFP new patch well this is a day to remember for me :)

[Gabkicks]

check out the link in my sig on how to set it up :)

[LRB_Aly]

Great, nice of you, I'm gonna check the link :thumb:

[GP4Flo]

You can see how the tires are realistically flexing under the strain of the car's inertia as they try to grip the road.. just like real life. That is f***ing cool. That is what I think is the biggest improvement in LFS in this patch.. Too bad, that this feature has already been in LFS since version 0.2. ;)

[Gabkicks]

yeah i noticed i could see the tires flexing in the current and older versions as well. :shrug:

[AndroidXP]

Yes but as I intemperate that (below), it will be much improved... and for me, I am thinking it will bring LFS up to a level not seen before in sim racing.AFAIK tyre flexing hasn't changed one bit. Yes, grip loss and regain have been updated, but the tyre flexing isn't anything revolutionary new (to this patch).
I think that 1 was where it turns faster and 0 where slower, 50 should be linear then, yes.No.

Each car in LFS has a different amount of steering lock. For example, the road cars have 720°, the GTR's 540° IIRC. LFS always matches the rotation so no matter how much you rotation your wheel has, if you steer to the lock, the car in LFS will be on the lock, too.

Now, wheel compensation at 1 (full) means that LFS tries to match the real to ingame rotation speed around the center of steering. For example if you have a wheel with 270° rotation, and drive a GTR car (which has 540°), then normally each degree rotated on your wheel will result in 2° rotated ingame. If you turn the compensation on, it will also be 1° rotation ingame, giving you more precision where it's needed (at the center of steering). If you go closer to the steering lock though, then it will work the other way round. Now 1° rotated IRL will result in 3 or more degrees rotated ingame. The steering is progressive so to say.

In conclusion:
Wheel turn compensation at 1 = most precision around center, non linear steering.
Wheel turn compensation at 0 = same precision overall, linear steering

[LRB_Aly]

Well but if you have as example the wheel rotation set to 540 degrees in game and on the DFP, the steering wheel compensation should have no effect, or am I wrong?

[Gabkicks]

i have steering compensation set to 0.:shrug:

[BWX232]

AFAIK tyre flexing hasn't changed one bit. Yes, grip loss and regain have been updated, but the tyre flexing isn't anything revolutionary new (to this patch).
No.






Too bad, that this feature has already been in LFS since version 0.2. ;)

First they say this:
Live for Speed tyres have come on a long way recently. We have been on the case recently to meet this challenge and make sure each tyre behaves as realistically as possible, and as well as possible, under all those varying conditions



And then they show those pictures right next to it- which look to me to be different than the current sidewall flexing we see in LFS now..

If the grip level changes, the sidewall flexing will change as well.. that's physics for you. If the sidewall behavior hasn't been changed one bit for this patch, why show those pictures that clearly display sidewall flexing?
Regardless- it looks to me like they will behave differently than before, I suppose we will find out soon enough.

BTW I already knew the sidewalls flexed before this patch.. been playing since the release of S2, and actually since S1 demo days. :razz:
......

[AndroidXP]

Well but if you have as example the wheel rotation set to 540 degrees in game and on the DFP, the steering wheel compensation should have no effect, or am I wrong?
Yes, that's right.

[AndroidXP]

And then they show those pictures right next to it- which look to me to be different than the current sidewall flexing we see in LFS now..

If the grip level changes, the sidewall flexing will change as well.. that's physics for you. If the sidewall behavior hasn't been changed one bit for this patch, why show those pictures that clearly display sidewall flexing?
Regardless- it looks to me like they will behave differently than before, I suppose we will find out soon enough.

BTW I already knew the sidewalls flexed before this patch.. been playing since the release of S2, and actually since S1 demo days. :razz:
......
Because how else do you portray "grip level changes" in a screenshot? The only way to somewhat do that is to show the tyres "working", thus a screenshot of flexing tyres has been chosen. This does not necessarily mean anything on the flexing code has changed.

BTW I was already playing LFS before S1 got released. :razz:

[BWX232]

Because how else do you portray "grip level changes" in a screenshot? The only way to somewhat do that is to show the tyres "working", thus a screenshot of flexing tyres has been chosen. This does not necessarily mean anything on the flexing code has changed.


Well as I said, the flexing will change with the grip level change.. I guess we'll have to ask the devs if the flexing itself has changed separate from grip levels. I am being an optimist here-



Also on the question of DFP adjustment..

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7863/lfssteer4kp.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/8168/lfssteerdfpcp4iu.jpg

[Madman_CZ]

whoah! :O you are running 15 force strength? i play with 60. Not really played with the setting but what do you guys think works best. I know it mainly comes down to personal preference but still nice to know what others think. Isnt 15 a bit weak? or are u a drifter? :D

mad

[Gabkicks]

hehe i'm at 95 ingame and 100 in profiler :tilt:. chicks dig the authentic pro racer ripped forearms.

[BWX232]

I went out on a real car and payed attention to the force it took to turn a corner-- after going back into LFS, that seemed to be very similar.. of course I raise it and lower it while I am on the track- via hot keys- and some cars need a LOT more than others..

On the GTR cars after the tires get warmed up I may drop it down to 10.. and still have a plenty of resistance, on some of the smaller cars, up to 40 or 50 ... All depends. That was just where I left it last time I played.

[hardcoreobscure]

I find 100 works well on profiler then change the settings ingame as I go using the < and > keys. Most of the road cars work well with 100 in game, apart from the UF1 which needs a bit more, and the FOX with certain settings can be a bit slack so I tend to up that to 120. Then the GTR's can be a bit aggressive with 100 so I drop it to 90 usually good luck with your wheel Aly it takes a little getting used to but once you do its immense! :thumb:

Oh and also... HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

[BWX232]

Another thing is that I drive with one hand most of the time, and use the other for the shift stick.. most of the cars in LFS would have a shift stick so that's what I use... If I turned it up that far I would have problems steering.. and have problems with wobble and oscillation.

[kamkorPL]

And then they show those pictures right next to it- which look to me to be different than the current sidewall flexing we see in LFS now..

It looks a bit different to me too. :)

[tristancliffe]

Well as I said, the flexing will change with the grip level change.. I guess we'll have to ask the devs if the flexing itself has changed separate from grip levels. I am being an optimist here-



Also on the question of DFP adjustment..

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7863/lfssteer4kp.jpg

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/8168/lfssteerdfpcp4iu.jpg

Enable "Enable Centering Spring in Force Feedback Games", then you're good to go.

I also turn down windows controller to 50% strength, and double the value in LFS, so that I have greater adjustment resolution in game with , and .

[BWX232]

I actually used to do that - but I now set it too 100 or higher since I found out the FF of the DFP is not "linear" below 100... And also no need to check the box on the DFP- only with the momo's.. there used to be a bug with those, it is not present in the DFP- of course checking it won't really do anything though.

This all according to "Tom"- the Logitech driver writer on the wingman team forum.


(bottom post was first)
http://www.wingmanteam.com/discus/messages/4/3657.html?1135269994

maybe someday we will get a "linearity slider" to compensate? Hope so.

[travbrad]

Call me crazy, but my force is set to 152, used to be 180

[BWX232]

Call me crazy

You are crazy.

[mrodgers]

You are crazy.
Totally!

I'm in agreeance with Tristan and BWX. I use 60 in windows and around 35-50 depending on car in LFS.

I did the same thing BWX said he did. I paid attention to how my real cars felt and adjusted to that. Of course, I'd expect it a little stronger in a race car, but nothing like 100/100%. You can feel MORE by using LESS.

And, as far as I've heard, you don't need "centering spring" checked anymore with the 4.60 drivers.

[frokki]

I've heard a confirmation that the BF1 will have a traction control system. Therefore, do you think we'll have TC on some old cars too today?

[AndroidXP]

I've heard a confirmation that the BF1 will have a traction control system. Therefore, do you think we'll have TC on some old cars too today?
Yeah, I'd really appreciate TC on the UF1 :thumb:




:rolleyes: I hope not...

[Madman_CZ]

Yeah, I'd really appreciate TC on the UF1 :thumb:





:rolleyes: I hope not...

just listen to that uf1000 go cgrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr cgrrrrrrrrrrrrrr as your sliding through the corners at South City :D

[BWX232]

You can feel MORE by using LESS.


Yeah that is actually true.. plus I don't want to wear this thing out too fast- I mean I pound on it daily, but the higher you have the force, the faster it will break or wear out.

[AndroidXP]

Very true. If I set the force to 100+ the only thing I can feel is the FF motor grinding. Normally I have it on 40 now.

[LRB_Aly]

Just got it. And already tried it on track. Well I have to adapt to the rotation, had a hard time catching back oversteering cars without making them oversteer in the over direction. FF: That was a big surprise to me, it's much stronger then it used to be on my red Momo and has a good feedback, just great :) :thumb:

[Execution Style]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWX232

You can see how the tires are realistically flexing under the strain of the car's inertia as they try to grip the road.. just like real life. That is f***ing cool. That is what I think is the biggest improvement in LFS in this patch..



but that's not new! :smileypul

it already does it in the current version...


I remember playing around with LFSTweak at the end of the S1 era and noticed the tires flex, as well as maybe that they actually appeared dirty after driving onto the gravel. At the time I had tires 3 times the height of the car on, so maybe the graphical effect is way more noticeable now hehe.

But anyway I think the big deal with the new code is that the physics simulation will not only adjust to the flex that the tires are experiencing, but that the tires will flex to compensate for the lateral forces... basically that when the car is drifting, the tires will now flex in an attempt to re-connect themselves to the road.

In S1 the tires flexed and tilted, but in the code the grip level was calculated based on a tire that was exactly flat to the ground.

In S2 the calculations now account for dynamic camber, so the grip can be less if the tire isn't flat to the ground...

the next step I think (hope!) will feel like as big a difference as S1 to S2 was :D

[XCNuse]

Too bad, that this feature has already been in LFS since version 0.2. ;)
lol :tilt:

only difference is.. those pictures were probably taken with the lowest possible air pressure in the tires so it exagerates what you would really see

[deggis]

I think weak FF motor would explain some players' very heavy FF settings... if they always played e.g. some crazy 150/150% settings the motor could've been weakened so it actually isn't so hard that it looks like?

[letdown427]

I think weak FF motor would explain some players' very heavy FF settings... if they always played e.g. some crazy 150/150% settings the motor could've been weakened so it actually isn't so hard that it looks like?

I played with my DFP with everything on 150% and with it at 200 in LFS for ages. It felt sooo meaty throwing/wrestling the cars around, the only problem was that in a straight line, if the wheel was centred it would violently twitch left and right.

Fun though :)

[BWX232]

lol :tilt:

only difference is.. those pictures were probably taken with the lowest possible air pressure in the tires so it exagerates what you would really see

Maybe ... maybe not.. If it was taken with normal air pressure, that would prove something I suppose.
Still I do not remember seeing that much flex, starting that close to the rim before- that's what it looks like IRL too.

[RS-R DriftDancer]

I predict alot of wide open drifts from our dear little XRT. I personally hope the new physics change the driving model completely. perhaps making it a bit harder to drift the car. also, I see lime times decreasing. I for one cant wait. S2S here I come!:thumb:

[AndroidXP]

Yeah I failed to mention that. The tyres are very likely on low pressure and the fact that the GTi is fully loaded with passengers doesn't help things either (read: it suggests they really wanted to get the most extreme tyre flex possible for the screenshot).

PS: OMGOMGOMGWHEREISPATCHNEEDITNOWARRRRGH