REALISM---Will BF1 lap a real life circuit in a similar time?

[wE1l]

I am very concerned, since it's one of the most obvious ways to judge how realistic a racing sim is.

Take F1C for example, the lap times the top sim drivers do are amazingly close to those real life F1 drivers do. Now with possibilities to add a real-life circuit into LFS, I am really curious to find out how it goes.

I doubt it though, judging by the behaviou of FO8, in which you could take some fast corners flat-out, the bumpy feeling and the sound of tyre scratching aren't quite right methinks.

We don't know the answer, so please feel free to discuss!

[deggis]

I'm more curious that how we are going to get a real life track to LFS before we can even think about comparing the times. :D

[CharlieP]

When you win the lottery you can make a replica Blackwood (Devs permitting) and invite BMW to test the F1.06 there.

Then we'll know :D

[AndroidXP]

I doubt we get a RL track in LFS soon, so that problem isn't really one. But even IF we had a RL track I think the times would be very close. They might be faster for the aliens because we actually have several advantages over the real racers, including the lack of death when crashing and no crazy forces acting on us when cornering.

But as you said, we don't know, so all things discussed here will be pure speculation.

[tristancliffe]

Plus real life tracks have varying grip levels, and lots more detail, so it would never be perfect anyway. But also remember that F1C wasn't a proper simulation and the lap times were made accurate by fudging the grip/scale.

[Screeny]

since it's one of the most obvious ways to judge how realistic a racing sim is.

most obvious, but in my opinion one of the worst. you could make a game where you fly over a racetrack and by adjusting cornering abilities and speed you set the lowest reachable time to time x by f1 driver y. doesn't mean it's to be realistic at all.

[deggis]

Plus real life tracks have varying grip levels, and lots more detail, so it would never be perfect anyway. But also remember that F1C wasn't a proper simulation and the lap times were made accurate by fudging the grip/scale.
Well also GTR lap times are only 3-5 secs faster than real life lap times (on a same season that the game has). FIA GT website has a good database of the previous seasons' races and qualifications. There are lots of things wrong in GTR but there must be something also right because the times are very close. I compared the times from the GTR-Rank page.

[LRB_Aly]

oh I remember the time when I used to play F1C. There were tracks where the top drivers drove a lot faster then in real life. I think A1 track was one of those where you could match the times of a real life Ferrari with cars like the Minardi.

[wE1l]

Hi guys, I really don't want to make this thread dig into F1C, but just for the record F1C, which is a 3 years old sim, is still the most realistic F1 sim out there. For whom thinking it ain't a proper sim, I kinda feel sorry for you not being able to have the fun that thousands have. For whom saying lap times are restricted by fudging the physics, that's about the most unintelligent post I've seen around here. For whom reckon that lap times in F1C are a lot faster tha rl, I'd suggest you take a look at www.findthelimit.com And JFYI, pcgamer who gave LFS 92% gave F1C 91%.

Back on topic, I am just afraid that BF1 runs too fast that it would set a ridiculous lap time on a rl track. Imagine a 1:30.xxx at Spa with a F1 car...

[ajp71]

Sims (however accurate) will nearly always be faster than RL, several reasons:

1. Sim developers always take the gripiest tires, slipiest drag co-efficents, torqueiest torque curves that they have avaliable in the data they have.

2. Fear, in a sim you only have to press shift + R (or twidle your thumbs for 10 minutes in nK) in real life it hurts.

3. Extra grip - given because driving without G forces is like driving with your eyes closed.

4. Less bumps - even the LFS bumps are rather smooth for real life.

5. 1000s of laps - IRL you don't spend nearly as much time driving (also effects setups).

6. More openess than RL people share setups + replays.

7. Less randomness - IRL the car isn't always in a perfect shiny state real cars have bad days when they just seem hell bent to break down. Often sims go for the option of making everything perfect because they can't get the randomness of reality.

8. Stronger cars - IRL most gearboxes will not take flat shifting and excessive kerbing/wheel on the grass is got away with.

[Bob Smith]

9. Everyone knows that 13 year old spotty geeky kids don't have anything better to do, so eventually end up the best. But they would never get into real racing since that would involve leaving the house, and would be too scrawny to turn a real wheel. On a semi-serious note way more people have the opportunity to take part in sim racing than rea life racing, so in theory there should be more faster drivers?

[Cue-Ball]

Well also GTR lap times are only 3-5 secs faster than real life lap times (on a same season that the game has).Oh, is that all? 3 seconds is an ETERNITY in auto racing. Especially at a level like GTR. I wouldn't say that coming within 3 seconds of real life timing is any sort of accomplishment.

Not that it really matters. So long as the playing field is level, and so long as the car feels right and reacts like you would expect it to, the time in which it can lap a track is almost insignificant.

[tristancliffe]

Hi guys, I really don't want to make this thread dig into F1C, but just for the record F1C, which is a 3 years old sim, is still the most realistic F1 sim out there. For whom thinking it ain't a proper sim, I kinda feel sorry for you not being able to have the fun that thousands have. For whom saying lap times are restricted by fudging the physics, that's about the most unintelligent post I've seen around here. For whom reckon that lap times in F1C are a lot faster tha rl, I'd suggest you take a look at www.findthelimit.com (http://www.findthelimit.com) And JFYI, pcgamer who gave LFS 92% gave F1C 91%.

Back on topic, I am just afraid that BF1 runs too fast that it would set a ridiculous lap time on a rl track. Imagine a 1:30.xxx at Spa with a F1 car...

Yes I agree totally that F1C is the most realistic F1 sim out there at the moment. But it's also as realistic at simulating F1 (and all the car dynamics involved) as this lump of cheese *points to lump of cheese*

Accurate lap times DO NOT mean it's realistic, it just means the developers have made it so that accurate times are generated. A realistic sim will produce realistic times (with consideration that you'll always be able to go slightly faster in a sim ultimately), but it doesn't work the other way around.

Oh, and I played F1C, realised it was relatively arcade nonsense, and deleted. I think it went as a part exchange for some other game that enjoyed a lot more.

[wE1l]

Yes I agree totally that F1C is the most realistic F1 sim out there at the moment. But it's also as realistic at simulating F1 (and all the car dynamics involved) as this lump of cheese *points to lump of cheese*

Accurate lap times DO NOT mean it's realistic, it just means the developers have made it so that accurate times are generated. A realistic sim will produce realistic times (with consideration that you'll always be able to go slightly faster in a sim ultimately), but it doesn't work the other way around.

Oh, and I played F1C, realised it was relatively arcade nonsense, and deleted. I think it went as a part exchange for some other game that enjoyed a lot more.


Good for you then.:tilt: Glad we both find LFS more realistic. I agree that similar lap times do not necessarily mean a good sim, but to be a decent sim lap times can't be too far-fetched IMO. How I want a rl circuit for a comparison!:D

[J.B.]

Track surfaces aren't identical to each other on real tracks. Some are rougher than others, some may offer more grip then others. In sims this would probably be simulated using a simple, numerical grip factor. This factor could easily be tweaked to match up the sim lap times to real lap times.

In short: Lap time comparison is pretty useless in terms of rating realism.

Overlaying speed, steering, slipangle traces etc. would be much better but I have never seen this done with any sim.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

For whom saying lap times are restricted by fudging the physics, that's about the most unintelligent post I've seen around here. For whom reckon that lap times in F1C are a lot faster tha rl, I'd suggest you take a look at www.findthelimit.com (http://www.findthelimit.com) And JFYI, pcgamer who gave LFS 92% gave F1C 91%.


Actually no, he's right. You need to make sure you have all the facts before saying someone else's post is unintelligent :) Laptimes say nothing about the fundamental realism of a sim. If you think that getting around a track in the same amount of time means realism, then we differ on our opionion of what true realism is. Realism is realtime calculations, not table lookups. Also, gamer mag ratings are beyond useless, and not aimed at the niche that a true driving simulator is. Not trying to sound brash :tilt:

[ajp71]

Wasn't GP4 (slightly) more realisitic than F1C?

[wE1l]

Actually no, he's right. You need to make sure you have all the facts before saying someone else's post is unintelligent :) Laptimes say nothing about the fundamental realism of a sim. If you think that getting around a track in the same amount of time means realism, then we differ on our opionion of what true realism is. Realism is realtime calculations, not table lookups. Also, gamer mag ratings are beyond useless, and not aimed at the niche that a true driving simulator is. Not trying to sound brash :tilt:



It always helps to hear different opinions, for what I think laptimes have to do with realism, please check my last post in this thread. And since we are both S2 licensed, it may be safe to say we do not differ too much on what true realism is.:razz:

[Gabkicks]

Oh, is that all? 3 seconds is an ETERNITY in auto racing. Especially at a level like GTR. I wouldn't say that coming within 3 seconds of real life timing is any sort of accomplishment.

Not that it really matters. So long as the playing field is level, and so long as the car feels right and reacts like you would expect it to, the time in which it can lap a track is almost insignificant.

i was thinking the same thing. 3 seconds is forever.

[wE1l]

Wasn't GP4 (slightly) more realisitic than F1C?


lol, it's like :fence: on this for years, but they are both pretty old sims these days, anyways, as long as everyone finds his true love...:D

[ajp71]

i was thinking the same thing. 3 seconds is forever.

Yep 3-5 seconds is the difference between a front running GT car and a back of the grid GT3 car at some tracks.

[wE1l]

i was thinking the same thing. 3 seconds is forever.


depends on the circuit I think, 3 seconds at bl1 is definitely disaster tho.:)

[Becky Rose]

1. Sim developers always take the gripiest tires, slipiest drag co-efficents, torqueiest torque curves that they have avaliable in the data they have.

2. Fear, in a sim you only have to press shift + R (or twidle your thumbs for 10 minutes in nK) in real life it hurts.

3. Extra grip - given because driving without G forces is like driving with your eyes closed.

4. Less bumps - even the LFS bumps are rather smooth for real life.

5. 1000s of laps - IRL you don't spend nearly as much time driving (also effects setups).

6. More openess than RL people share setups + replays.

7. Less randomness - IRL the car isn't always in a perfect shiny state real cars have bad days when they just seem hell bent to break down. Often sims go for the option of making everything perfect because they can't get the randomness of reality.

8. Stronger cars - IRL most gearboxes will not take flat shifting and excessive kerbing/wheel on the grass is got away with.

I dont agree with everything you have said:
2: Fear is not a problem for most racing drivers. When I raced TKM for instance the first time I hit the throttle every day I wondered how I ever had the bottle to drive this thing last time, by the second corner I had adjusted to the speed and was away... Happily inches away from the then highly dangerous Stadium Bend at Rye House without a second thought about that empty 1metre gravel trap, flimsy tyre wall, lack of catchment fence, and the car park beyond whether it was wet or dry.

3: The effect of G-forces on a novice driver can result in latent use of the throttle. Any driver who doesn't overcome this confidence issue finishes at the back.

5: The majority of my budget even in the lower ranks of motor sport has been spent on development, testing and practice and not race entry fees.

6: At the lower ranks people share, at the higher ranks hundreds of people armed with super computers setup 1 car.

I agree with your other points though.

[ajp71]

Looking at some times from British GT Castle Coombe 2005:

GT2 (pole) - 1.06
GT3 (slowest*) - 1.10

*That weren't sticking out like a sore thumb way off pace, probably after problems.

[JJ72]

What's the problem with the FO8 being able to take fast corners flat out? it's a downforce car.

I don't see your point with the vibration and tire sound either?

[ayrton senna 87]

becky u raced TKM? u racin anything nowdays or have u given up?

[ajp71]

2: Fear is not a problem for most racing drivers.


Without being rude a kart is not the same as a proper racing car. In car racing a lot of people have fear not only for themselves but for others (ie. parts of car that go flying into crowds) maybe top drivers just don't get this sense of fear anymore, more because at high profile events there is so much catch fencing. At club racing you often hear these fears. The fastest drivers have fear they just know how to drive beyond it, Keke Rosberg was not the hardest charger but still managed that absolutley fearless lap @ Silverstone, and he says he did feel fear in that lap he just controled it.


3: The effect of G-forces on a novice driver can result in latent use of the throttle. Any driver who doesn't overcome this confidence issue finishes at the back.


Yes but I'm sure Norbi could shave a thousandth off his times if he could feel what the cars doing properly. Driving bellow the limit is easy. Finding the limit is easy. Driving at the limit is very hard with any G forces.


5: The majority of my budget even in the lower ranks of motor sport has been spent on development, testing and practice and not race entry fees.


You done 8000 miles in your kart since March? Even with testing no one ever does as much as they could do in a sim.


6: At the lower ranks people share, at the higher ranks hundreds of people armed with super computers setup 1 car.


You have no way of knowing exactly what they see, even from an onboard cam. You can't share setups even in supposedly identical machinery they will never handle exactly the same and the car/kart will not be exactly as you left it.

[ajp71]

Bumpy feeling in FO8?

Try nK :D

Both LFS/nK are less bumpy than you'll find a real F3000 car is when your backsides 2 inches from the floor in a super stiff ground effect single seater.

[ayrton senna 87]

ajp u ever driven a proper kart? a car feels ALOT slower than a kart man, 70 in a kart feels like about 150+ in a car

[wE1l]

What's the problem with the FO8 being able to take fast corners flat out? it's a downforce car.

I don't see your point with the vibration and tire sound either?


1. Westhill International, Turn 1 --- 90 degree, no significent banking, flat-out.

2. At FE Black, when attacking some tight chicanes, in real life those violent vibrations would easily result in a total loss of control of the car, yet we get away with it.

3. Annoying and extremely unrealistic tyre sounds when at very low speed (1-10 kph) should be a well-know one. Sound of tyre scratching the ground means your car is going sideways, and in a formula car, it's a situation you would never want to be in. Most of the time you will lose the car, because the sliding friction force is much weaker than static friction, your car will be sliding all the way to the barrier.

Hope you could get a better idea of what I was talking about.:)

[JJ72]

besides point 3 your argument seems to be just based on your personal perspective? I don't think the first two points are supported by real life references strong enough to prove that LFS has it way off.

point 3 should be addressed with the tire physics update.

[ajp71]

ajp u ever driven a proper kart? a car feels ALOT slower than a kart man, 70 in a kart feels like about 150+ in a car

No I've never driven a proper kart, nor do I claim to have. I don't know how much fear you actually feel in one but I'm sure once you know your relatively safe your fine. Having only driven hire karts I don't feel any fear in them knowing that the only chance you actually have of hurting yourself is in a T-bone (which obviously can still be pretty nasty even @ 30) but unless your being a dick you won't have that. This results in harmless high contact highly competitive fun :)

In proper racing though, you tend to find that most big mishaps happen at tracks with large run off zones. Take the complex @ Silverstone a large number of drivers seem to push to hard and park it in the gravel there, with no real risk of hurting themselves or others. Now take Devil's Elbow @ Mallory, very very few cars seem to get it wrong, partly because of the fear people have of an off there.

The red mist can sometimes overcome the fear then as it did at the weekend for my Dad's mate. Even when he knew there was a huge risk of a crash going into Russel @ Snett neither he nor the guy he was racing backed off on the last lap when they saw a backmarker ahead. Resulting in the car on the inside launching off the back marker (who was in the middle) and then landing on my Dad's mates car. Probably the last time he'll make a choice like that after the car scraped his head and with the knowledge that he'd of been killed had the car that landed on him been winged.

[ajp71]

besides point 3 your argument seems to be just based on your personal perspective? I don't think the first two points are supported by real life references strong enough to prove that LFS has it way off.


I was commenting on sims in gerneral trying to think of most of the things that applied to sims back when F1C came out. I definatley don't think LFS or nK suffer from points 1 or 3.


1. Westhill International, Turn 1 --- 90 degree, no significent banking, flat-out.


The FO8 is by nature a very high downforce car.

Now consider this the old Woodcote @ Silverstone - 90 degree no banking. A 150 mph corner in the '70s at a low downforce track when cars had a lot less grip and downforce.

[JJ72]

Fear is one thing that professional racer learn to put aside when racing, especially modern day's racing driver who rarely suffer heavy injury. Of course we casual drivers will have fear when first trying to drive near the limit, however I believe most professional race drivers don't have that problem.

[J.B.]

... Sound of tyre scratching the ground means your car is going sideways, and in a formula car, it's a situation you would never want to be in. Most of the time you will lose the car, because the sliding friction force is much weaker than static friction, your car will be sliding all the way to the barrier.


You mean slides can't be caught (http://rapidshare.de/files/18425823/kimi_raikkonen_spa_pouhon_save_2002.avi.html) [rapidshare.de] in single-seater cars? ;)

[JJ72]

btw 90 degrees means nothing unless you mention the corner's radius, you know the Oval is actually make up of three over 100 degree turns.

[ajp71]

Fear is one thing that professional racer learn to put aside when racing, especially modern day's racing driver who rarely suffer heavy injury. Of course we casual drivers will have fear when first trying to drive near the limit, however I believe most professional race drivers don't have that problem.

Putting fear aside has got to be the daftest thing you can do. The fastest, best and safest drivers will always be the ones that take things in a measured way, weigh up the risks and are able to back off. Those who try and ignore fear just end up driving in a red mist and become dangerous and slow because they try to hard. Look at Senna pushing Prost off the track at 180 mph or a large number of Schumacher's antics as soon as he's under pressure and looses his composure, most recent being Melbourne when he walked into the wrong garage after crashing out because he had lost focus on anything but trying to catch a rebadged Minardi :D

[wE1l]

besides point 3 your argument seems to be just based on your personal perspective? I don't think the first two points are supported by real life references strong enough to prove that LFS has it way off.

point 3 should be addressed with the tire physics update.



1. Think for yourself---reaching 270kph at the backstraight, taking a fast chicane and remaining that speed, and then flat-out a 90 degree corner without even a touch on the brake??

2. Do u recall San Marino GP 2005? In qualifying, Michael Schumacher ran wide at the penultimate corner, everyone was puzzled how he faltered, later MS explained he braked a bit late but unfortunately hit a bump and lost front downforce for a thousandth of a second, which saw him in the gravel. Aerodynamics are so delicate in racing that a little disturbance would totally mess it up. Well in that FO8 sometimes the you could feel the wheel almost leaves the ground yet it comes back safely as if it's glued to the ground. That's why I don't feel it "right".:scratchch

[ajp71]

1. Think for yourself---reaching 270kph at the backstraight, taking a fast chicane and remaining that speed, and then flat-out a 90 degree corner without even a touch on the brake??


Yep getting into the 'zone' maybe easier in a sim but that's what real drivers have to do. Sure loss of ground effects maybe an issue on bumps but then again it didn't stop Stefan Bellof driving a 956 round the 'ring bloody quickly.

[marsaz]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3698720347052662167&q=car&pl=true

This is not an F1 but still. Tyres DO sound even if you can't really see car going sideways. Looks like tyres can slip a little bit before they lose traction (still friction or whatever it is in english:x)

[ajp71]

This is not an F1 but still. Tyres DO sound even if you can't really see car going sideways. Looks like tyres can slip a little bit before they lose traction (still friction or whatever it is in english:x)

Yes to state the blindingly obvious tire screeching means tires slipping in any direction, it can be wheel spin, lock ups, understeer and oversteer.

[JJ72]

Putting fear aside has got to be the daftest thing you can do. The fastest, best and safest drivers will always be the ones that take things in a measured way, weigh up the risks and are able to back off. Those who try and ignore fear just end up driving in a red mist and become dangerous and slow because they try to hard. Look at Senna pushing Prost off the track at 180 mph or a large number of Schumacher's antics as soon as he's under pressure and looses his composure, most recent being Melbourne when he walked into the wrong garage after crashing out because he had lost focus on anything but trying to catch a rebadged Minardi :D

You are awared of the danger, but you don't let them get to you when you are doing the job, I think that's one thing that sets us mortals from those driving gods, just think about Gilles or Baldini or James Hunt.

A driver will of course always have a measure in when to push and when to conserve, but when it comes to hotlapping, when it's time to push, they should certainly be able to concentrate fully on their speed and momentally forget about the danger behind.

I remember Trulli saying the same thing when he receive the F1 racing MOTY awards for best qualifier.

[Gabkicks]

thats a roadcar :p certain race tyres make almost no noise

[ajp71]

^^ Yes but if you don't have some sub-concious fear you really seriously aren't going to last long.

[wE1l]

Yep getting into the 'zone' maybe easier in a sim but that's what real drivers have to do. Sure loss of ground effects maybe an issue on bumps but then again it didn't stop Stefan Bellof driving a 956 round the 'ring bloody quickly.



Thanks for pointing out Woodcote at Silverstone, but it seems that it has a fairly large radius http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/we1l/Silverstone201952.gif

while at we1 it's like
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/we1l/we1.jpg

:scratchch

[ajp71]

thats a roadcar :p certain race tyres make almost no noise
Don't know what kind of race tires you've come across then. Race tires make noise like road tires do when cold, you just get them grippy faster.

[JJ72]

I don't think "thinking" will answer the question, just get the G-force reading from LFS and see if it's impossible to achieve in a real life F3000 car.

[ajp71]

But Westhill is going uphill which means the suspension will be slightly compressed and therefore there'll be more grip. It's like Easu Rouge can now be taken flat.

[wE1l]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3698720347052662167&q=car&pl=true

This is not an F1 but still. Tyres DO sound even if you can't really see car going sideways. Looks like tyres can slip a little bit before they lose traction (still friction or whatever it is in english:x)


Nice video, well although I never drove a car that frantically I guess in the vid it DOES go sideways a tiny bit. It's worth mentioning that the sound only happens when the driver takes slow corners, which means that the sliding might be too tiny to be noticed.:tilt:

[ajp71]

I don't think "thinking" will answer the question, just get the G-force reading from LFS and see if it's impossible to achieve in a real life F3000 car.

I'll just go and get the F3000 car out the garage then... :D

I don't think I've seen readings of more than about 2.5 G which an Audi R8 pulls every lap for 24 hours round Indianapolis @ Le Mans.

[JJ72]

well as you can see T1 ain't 90 degrees either

[ajp71]

well as you can see T1 ain't 90 degrees either

It's nothing like as tight as the old Woodcote. So it should be able to be taken flat with easy, doesn't even feel to me like the tires are squirming on the limit. If your struggling with the FO8 you're going to find the F1 car blows your mind.

[JJ72]

Actually corpse would be a much better comparison, isn't it?

[marsaz]

Nice video, well although I never drove a car that frantically I guess in the vid it DOES go sideways a tiny bit. It's worth mentioning that the sound only happens when the driver takes slow corners, which means that the sliding might be too tiny to be noticed.:tilt:

You should try so you'd get a view what it's like. AND it happens at higher speeds (in this video) too. Just other sounds are much louder so it is harder to hear.

edit: Physically still friction force is much stronger than a 'sliding' friction force. Strange thing but tyre has most grip when it's sliding a little bit. Other surfaces lose it as one of them (or both) starts to move independently. I guess rubber features push that point a bit further than that.

[deggis]

Oh, is that all? 3 seconds is an ETERNITY in auto racing. Especially at a level like GTR. I wouldn't say that coming within 3 seconds of real life timing is any sort of accomplishment.

Not that it really matters. So long as the playing field is level, and so long as the car feels right and reacts like you would expect it to, the time in which it can lap a track is almost insignificant.
Well after combining the factors (ajp listed those already) that make driving fast lap times in a computer game much easier than in real life, I think the 3-5 secs isn't that much. I think it's just not possible to even get 99% accurate times. No matter how realistic the sim is it's always just a game.

Look at yourself :)
http://www.fiagt.com/results.php?season=2003&event=1&session=Combined%20Qualifying
http://www.schuerkamp.de/zope/gtrank/mchForm

remember to look at the qualifying times

[Becky Rose]

becky u raced TKM? u racin anything nowdays or have u given up?
Years ago, back before trying single seaters then settling with Pro Karts. I had a bad crash a few years ago and only had 1 go back in a kart since which was a couple of months ago. I hope to return to racing again soon but my new job isn't really paying enough right now to get a new kart atm so we shall see. I would like to return to Pro Karts and could just about afford one - but I cant afford to use it, so there's no point diving in yet.

Without being rude a kart is not the same as a proper racing car. In car racing a lot of people have fear not only for themselves but for others (ie. parts of car that go flying into crowds) maybe top drivers just don't get this sense of fear anymore...
I dont want to be rude either, but i've done touring car and entry level single seaters in my time aswell as karts yet neither I am referring too here. I can't link you to a web page for it or recall the name of the program but I saw on telly last year a documentary which showed an American scientist who had looked into why race driving often runs in the family, heck half the grid are inbreds ... even I often race with my brother.

What he had found was that fun+fear where related and that if you get too much "fun" it becomes "fear". Sucessful racing drivers where genetically disposed to having a higher threshold for both fun and fear and took a lot more in their stride before becoming stressed.

A high threshold for fear is practically a prime requisite for being a racing driver, the squeemish may enter - but are unlikely to do as well. That's why I said fear isn't really a factor, sure we all feal fear, we all have our threshold - but if fear is stopping you from putting the throttle down then you aren't going to win a club series, let alone become a professional race driver.

Driving bellow the limit is easy. Finding the limit is easy. Driving at the limit is very hard with any G forces.
I think maybe I missunderstand the origonal point this was on, we seem to be talking about different things.

You done 8000 miles in your kart since March? Even with testing no one ever does as much as they could do in a sim.
Yes true, but there comes a point where you cannot learn anything more constructive. Over the years I dont know how many miles i've done of my "home" track, maybe it is 8000 miles ! lol, but the point is there is nothing I can do to learn that track any more than I have done. I'll still be faster at the end of the day than the start though - that's because of a related issue, LFS has constant weather/track conditions, the real world doesnt. Every day the setup needs adjustment, sometimes quite drastically, even though i'm racing the same track.

You can't share setups even in supposedly identical machinery they will never handle exactly the same and the car/kart will not be exactly as you left it.
Setup is a constantly moving grey minefield in the real world, a rise of a few degrees track temperature can mean a totally different castor angle which might in turn require an adjustment to chassis torsion(kart) or roll bar settings (car) or something else, it certainly means changes to tyre pressures... The perfect setup is always moving, but in LFS it isn't, that's a key difference, but LFS does have wind already and maybe oneday temperature fluctuations ... The fact that it isn't simulated doesn't mean it can't be.

[ajp71]

Actually corpse would be a much better comparison, isn't it?

You ever been to Silverstone?

Copse is a much much tighter and flatter corner than the first corner of Westhill. Nothing, not even the FOX would stand a chance taking it flat.

@Deggis - The GTR laptimes are 9 seconds a lap faster than RL @ Spa.

[deggis]

But some other tracks e.g. Estoril had only 3-4 sec difference. Spa seems to be bad example because N-GT cars were faster than real life GTs. :D Difference between N-GT cars seems to be smaller.

FYI, and I'm not a GTR fan, actually I don't even like it.

[ajp71]

FYI, and I'm not a GTR fan, actually I don't even like it.

No worries :)

[J.B.]

Copse is a much much tighter and flatter corner than the first corner of Westhill. Nothing, not even the FOX would stand a chance taking it flat.



Depending on aero setup, F3 cars can actually take it flat.

[BrainBT]

Similar time, oin a realistic (ultra-realistic) game, would mean that you are wasting your time driving pc games instead of beeing a real f1 driver

lol

[Becky Rose]

70 in a kart feels like about 150+ in a car
Now all we need is a kart that only does 70mph and we can all be fearless :), the slowest adult kart is a twin 4-stroke which, properly setup with tuned engines, will do up to about 80-85mph at the fastest point at my home track, Rye.

Putting fear aside has got to be the daftest thing you can do.
Not taking the opportunity to gain an extra tenth is the daftest thing you can do, it's the difference between winning and being a rank amateur. Fear is not what stops you from hitting the car in front, I think this is where my opinion varies. I rarely feel fear on the race track and when I do it's a case of I dont want to let the team down and spin and nothing to do with personal safety.

Even mid accident i'm not scared, I switch to momentum planning mode and try to recover the car with as little loss of time as possible. If I know the barrier is coming i'm planning how I want to hit that barrier. If I froze in fright and hit it at the wrong angle i'll be in hospital, there just isn't time to be scared even when you know you're going to be hurting - simply because the brain says, "i'd rather hurt less, please".

What stops you from doing LFS-T1 antics is risk assessment, it's a simple calculation of whether the overtake is better performed now or the next corner.

I personally feel fear before a race, it dies away the moment the lights go green and I dont feel it again until a week before the next race.

You might ask then why so many people have trouble at T1 in LFS? Well sure i've got it wrong in LFS before, i've got it wrong in real racing before too - but on the whole if anything my own starts in LFS are generally more gentle and far safer than the ones I make in real racing (not including taps from behind) because in real life it's easier to look to the sides than it is in LFS.

I can tell you why I think so many people crash in LFS, it's not a lack of fear, it's simply because of a lack of understanding of how it can be done and a lack of awareness of what is around them. In LFS I suffer from side awareness, I do look sometimes but it's not as easy as the real thing so I often fail to use as much track as I could in order not to effect other drivers.

[ajp71]

Not taking the opportunity to gain an extra tenth is the daftest thing you can do, it's the difference between winning and being a rank amateur.

It can also be the difference between life and death you've just got to know when it's time to say enough is enough.


Even mid accident i'm not scared, I switch to momentum planning mode and try to recover the car with as little loss of time as possible.



You can't do anything but try and sink into the cockpit when you see a car flying over your rear wing. Which is why the accident @ Russel was such a terrifying experience even if only one corner of the car was damaged. When you have no control of whether the car will glance your head or give it a good biff that's when the fear kicks in.

[Christian Seidel]

No I've never driven a proper kart, nor do I claim to have. I don't know how much fear you actually feel in one but I'm sure once you know your relatively safe your fine. Having only driven hire karts I don't feel any fear in them knowing that the only chance you actually have of hurting yourself is in a T-bone (which obviously can still be pretty nasty even @ 30) but unless your being a dick you won't have that. This results in harmless high contact highly competitive fun :)


Sorry, BUT:

If you don't know about kart racing you should better not draw any conclusions about it.

Maybe you didn't happen to know that a proper racing kart can produce g-forces that are high enough to break the drivers' ribs just from cornering. I know that because my cousin once did that.

And believe me that these kinds of cornering speeds CAN be scary, especially in long, fast turns.

And also believe me that even a proper 100cc racing kart can go faster than 30 - be it mph or kph. On the short tracks you usually drive on with karts, you mostly don't get faster than 130 kph (dunno what's possible on a looooong straight...:D ). But again: approaching VERY tight hairpins with 130 kph and maybe some kind of wall behind it can also be rather scary.

I also see that you are 16 years old and you say that you have not driven proper karts so far. So I think you have also never driven any other proper racing vehicle on slicks either. Am I right? If yes, then you better should not talk about real racing as if you know what you're talking about.

Watching real racing and doing it by yourself is a world of a difference. Even if it is only karting.

Please don't take this as an offence - it's just a fact.:)

[ajp71]

Firstly about the karts the speeds I was talking about were 70 mph (because that's what the first poster had said). I'm sure it can be scary at those speeds but seeing as the poster said they felt no fear I was simply saying that what they had been driving may have seemed less scary than big single seaters with no run off areas.


I also see that you are 16 years old and you say that you have not driven proper karts so far. So I think you have also never driven any other proper racing vehicle on slicks either. Am I right? If yes, then you better should not talk about real racing as if you know what you're talking about.


No I've never raced but been around club racing circles all my life and have never heard any of this I feel absolutley no fear at all bollocks in the racing circles I've been around (or believed it at least).

[Christian Seidel]

No I've never raced but been around club racing circles all my life and have never heard any of this I feel absolutley no fear at all bollocks in the racing circles I've been around (or believed it at least).

Of course not. A race driver without fear is dead in no time. :D

You might feel comfortable with the speed you're going but this is something different to feeling no fear.

[ajp71]

Of course not. A race driver without fear is dead in no time. :D

You might feel comfortable with the speed you're going but this is something different to feeling no fear.

That's basically what I was saying. Becky reckons she felt no fear but I can't believe this partly because she's still here :)

Sometimes things can get mis-inturpreted like the definition of taking a corner flat. IMO taking a corner flat means taking it with the throttle to the floor and no attempt to loose speed on the way in. Some people say it means that you take the corner with the throttle floored but even if you brake before the corner and then come back on the throttle that means taking it flat. I've heard people taking copse 'flat' if you use the second definition and in that case the F3 car will take it flat.

[J.B.]

I've heard people taking copse 'flat' if you use the second definition and in that case the F3 car will take it flat.

No, I mean flat as in flat throttle, top gear, no brakes, only steering. I've never heard of any of the other definitions.

[ajp71]

No, I mean flat as in flat throttle, top gear, no brakes, only steering. I've never heard of any of the other definitions.

Blimey are you sure? I suppose with a high downforce set the entry speed would only be about 135 mph but I'd of thought Silverstone would still be a low downforce circuit.

[J.B.]

Yes, but I'm sure it was a setup for one of the shorter layouts which need more downforce than the GP curcuit. And I can't imagine that there would be any other car than an F3 that could do it. After all they are a little under-powered for their levels of downforce.

[Becky Rose]

Becky reckons she felt no fear but I can't believe this partly because she's still here
Fear is an emotion, the mental process that leads to the decision to back off and not hit another car is not emotional, if we all drove with emotions then there would be more women in motor racing!

The decision is purely a logical/calculated one, and has nothing to do with personal safety.

You mention a specific accident, that's the kind of accident which for me might leave me in a state of shock after the event, but in the build up to it i'll be plotting trajectories and planning how I was going to come out in front and trying to pre-empt the other drivers actions.

Once the accident was inneviteable i'd be planning how to reduce it's impact either in terms of lost time or in terms of the crash severity.

I havn't had a car come over the top of me but I have had two hospitalising crashes in my time, to give you an idea of just how important personal safety is, these are the stories:

I'm not saying these are stories of bravery, brovado, or indeed common sense - because they're clearly everything but and in terms of my subsequent actions on each ocassion perhaps a bit stupid - but I consider myself a reasonable amateur racing driver and this is how much fear of personal safety is a factor in my racing:

Story 1) Testing a lightweight ultra modern high tensile plastic wheel thingy that was to be introduced to Pro Karters. The darn thing couldn't take the heat stresses and the outside front "collapsed" on me going round a full throttle bend. The kart was written off into the barrier, I finished up at the next bend with karts passing either side of me.

I ran back to the pits and got into my own kart and carried on driving whilst the wheel people tried to fix their kart. When I got out I noticed i'd flattened the top of my helmet in the crash.

Story 2) I was doing an endurance race in the last round of the club championship a couple of years ago and neaded to beat a certain team (which meant 4th place) to win by 1pt.

My brother started the race and had a problem at the start (wet tyres on a drying track) but he got up to 5th by the stop, I took over the drive and got us into 4th and came up on a backmarker as I approached the hairpin.

The backmarker decided he would race me for a bit of fun and tried to outbrake me. It should be made clear that my kart was one of the slowest in a strait line but it had the best brakes in the pack that year - all of it's speed came from significantly shorter stopping distances compared to the other karts, we'd invested significant testing time and parts budget into them. The hairpin was "my" corner :).

I planned on going around the outside, he planned on late braking and as he had the inside line he thought he'd get away with it easily. He realised too late that he'd left this braking thing far too late and pressed down too hard on the pedal in an effort to stop, he spun the kart around instantly and ended up going into the corner backwards.

Sadly for me this is the heavier more solid end of the kart with out the crumple nose cone, and it hit me hard and square on the side having only made a passing effort of reducing it's speed since the braking zone started, it shattered three ribs on impact and did significant damage to the kart - but it was still driveable.

It was another 25 minutes before the pain was too much and I radio'd in for a driver change. Despite every fast bend being painful and being aware that I could make the injury worse by racing I carried on as long as I could.

After the race my brother had recovered us to the 4th place we needed just ahead of the other team, but pieces lost from the kart resulted in us being under weight and the penalty put us to 5th and 1pt behind our goal.

I lost my job, had significant repairs to do on the kart, was in pain for well over a year whilst my ribs stitched themselves back together bit by bit and it would be two years before I raced again - but i'll be damned if fear of further injury was going to stop me trying to win that title.

Any racing drivers who spend their time on track backing off "just in case" aren't any good at all. They do exist btw, i've lapped them.

Fear just isn't something most racing drivers need to think about once the race starts, and as I tried to highlight earlier the people who are good at racing do tend to have a very high threshold for fear ... It takes something like car racing just to get into our fun threshold.

Why do you think I race? I spend most of my time bored out of my skull waiting for the next thrill to put some fun back into my life. I was born that way, like my brother and my father before me who all have or do still race. It's in the blood.

[Hyperactive]

Hmm. What kind of fear are you even talking about? Everyone who has been in accident knows that it is usually too short time to fear anything. Was it 0.1 seconds or 5 seconds, imho of course.

Btw. becky, nice signature :D

[Tweaker]

oh I remember the time when I used to play F1C. There were tracks where the top drivers drove a lot faster then in real life. I think A1 track was one of those where you could match the times of a real life Ferrari with cars like the Minardi.
Yes I also remember this. Cars were getting way faster times, and doing impossible turning maneuvers. :pillepall

I had a video of it once of someone doing absolutely outrageous times on various tracks... I just cannot agree on the fact that the times are very similar to reallife because of this, wE1l.

[Tweaker]

*damn double post*

[silent_wind]

huh just a question WE1l (outta the topic i know) , you're not originally chinese, are you ?? :) , i'll bet you're just working there or moved there... :)

[ajp71]

Fear is an emotion, the mental process that leads to the decision to back off and not hit another car is not emotional


As far as I'm concerned that thought process of rationalising what is and isn't acceptable is caused by the sub-consious fear inside any driver, be that a fear of hurting themsleves, others, the car or even end their race early.


You mention a specific accident, that's the kind of accident which for me might leave me in a state of shock after the event, but in the build up to it i'll be plotting trajectories and planning how I was going to come out in front and trying to pre-empt the other drivers actions.


Well no when there's another car flying over your head you have no control nothing to pre-empt once you've ducked down that's all you can do. Which is why he felt so much fear because he couldn't do anything. Despite it not looking that big a crash from the pits it was his complete lack of control that he said really made this one of the worst he'd had.

[JTbo]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3698720347052662167&q=car&pl=true

This is not an F1 but still. Tyres DO sound even if you can't really see car going sideways. Looks like tyres can slip a little bit before they lose traction (still friction or whatever it is in english:x)

This car understeers a lot, it is FWD, so no need to go sideways when tires start to whine.

From my experience road tyres starts make sound long before losing grip, slicks are harder to hear as usually cars having slicks are so loud that tire noise can't be heard.

[Fordman]

by fudging .

OT, sorry Tris, I had to have that comment :D

[JTbo]

Oh, fear and human mind, that is just too complicated thing to discuss on racing simulation related board ;)

Proper damage modelling is what would make something called fear to sim racing, well no, but more realistically behaving drivers at least :D

LFS damage should be multiplied by 2, perhaps even by 3 to get that...

[ajp71]

^^ But in a sim you still don't get the pain or the financial costs or time to rebuild.

[JTbo]

^^ But in a sim you still don't get the pain or the financial costs or time to rebuild.

Of course not, unless your homemade motion simulator goes crazy and crushes you trough ceiling, but that is maybe not likely to happen :D

n**** has this special mode that takes time aspect taken care of, adjust camber and wait 40mins to get job done, pffff.

We could have this financial part however as we do earn credits, but I have learned there is quite lot of ppl against from this kind of approach?

[ajp71]

Of course not, unless your homemade motion simulator goes crazy and crushes you trough ceiling, but that is maybe not likely to happen :D

Or buy a new S2 lisence every crash (Scavier would love that one :D).


n**** has this special mode that takes time aspect taken care of, adjust camber and wait 40mins to get job done, pffff.

WTF? changing camber involves turning 2 nuts per corner, never more than 5 minutes a corner. Yet a full rebuild takes 10 minutes, that's realism for you :pillepall


We could have this financial part however as we do earn credits, but I have learned there is quite lot of ppl against from this kind of approach?

NOOOOO I'd rather twidle my thumbs for 40 minutes than buy credits ISI style.

[wE1l]

Yes I also remember this. Cars were getting way faster times, and doing impossible turning maneuvers. :pillepall

I had a video of it once of someone doing absolutely outrageous times on various tracks... I just cannot agree on the fact that the times are very similar to reallife because of this, wE1l.



You REMEMBER?

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/we1l/ftl02er.jpg
This is the wr (advanced) in F1C for Nurburgring 2002.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/we1l/startg02er.jpg
And this is the outcome of qualifying 2002 European GP, note that back then they used 12-lap qualifying with light fuel, basically everyone carry 3 laps fuel and do a flying lap, pit and repeat this four times. So that should be very close to the maximum what the cars could do.

Worth mentioning that those top drivers in F1C tend to drive only in pro mode, which means TC is not active, I'd say with TC on it would be a safe bet that Binz would've made into 1:30s.

There are 11 driving aids available in F1C, with many of them turned on, yes, people can do much faster laptimes, maybe that's what you were talking about. And please cut it, I think talking excessively about another sim ain't that wise now that we are in a LFS forum and should of talk about the upcoming BF1.:D

Final words on what F1C has to do with this --- I just want a sim that allow people to drive real cars on real tracks doing similar times at each split to real life pros, experiencing most realistic car behaviors, that's what I get from F1C. In addition, please feel free to check out this cool F1C vid http://idefix.martijnbogaard.com/video/Formula1_compilation_Mart.wmv end of story.:tilt:

[JTbo]

WTF? changing camber involves turning 2 nuts per corner, never more than 5 minutes a corner. Yet a full rebuild takes 10 minutes, that's realism for you :pillepall
NOOOOO I'd rather twidle my thumbs for 40 minutes than buy credits ISI style.

Or like my car, takes half day, need to build custom parts etc. but certainly not to be case with formula cars. Luckily that is option that you can turn off and put on only for server when doing racing, not setups, damaging scares a lot as it spoils a day, I kind of like that :)

Hmm, I like from credit system, of course should be serverside option, user selectable for single player, but as I said before, there is lot of ppl not thinking this way.

[wE1l]

huh just a question WE1l (outta the topic i know) , you're not originally chinese, are you ?? :) , i'll bet you're just working there or moved there... :)


Hasn't my weird English given away the fact that I am not a native speaker?:D

FYI, my Chinese nationality is perfectly original.:smileypul And now it's my turn to be the curious one---why u ask? Are u interested in learning some Chinese?:D

[Rappa Z]

FYI, my Chinese nationality is perfectly original. And now it's my turn to be the curious one---why u ask? Are u interested in learning some Chinese?

le mee guess, no.

[JJ72]

Oh why, chinese ain't allowed to speak english correctly?

[JTbo]

Oh why, chinese ain't allowed to speak english correctly?

I guess that many ppl still think that english is not teached in china and is forbidden from chinese ppl. However they are not perhaps learn how China has changed recently, there is schools in China where students speak better english than most in London!

Things are changing and those who think that China is some 3rd world country may have little suprice ;)

[sil3ntwar]

F1C is horribly unrealistic. Times mean nothing. They could put a Formula One car in NFS: U with real tracks making it get realistic times yet that wouldnt make the game realstic. GP4 is 10X more realistic than F1C.

[Becky Rose]

there is schools in China where students speak better english than most in London!
True, but in fairness London doesn't actually have that many British people in it.

[Becky Rose]

As far as I'm concerned that thought process of rationalising what is and isn't acceptable is caused by the sub-consious fear inside any driver
If there's no adrenaline it's not fear. The lesser form of fear is fun, where adrenaline is delivered to the body but in measures it can make use of the adrenaline rather than let it take over. It becomes fear when so much adrenaline enters the body that normal decision making is suspended or effected and actions made purely by the adrenaline of the moment take place.

To say that rationalisation is fear is a missunderstanding of your mind and body and the way it works.

[ajp71]

OK Becky I think your better at physicology than me :)

[Christian Seidel]

OK Becky I think your better at physicology than me :)

Not really...

You shouldn't take all that stuff from Becky too seriously.

I won't go any deeper into this, but that's mainly because I find it rather pointless to argue with people who think that winning some completely irrelevant kart-championship is more important than their health. :pillepall

No further comment from me on this...:x

[JTbo]

I was not going to say this, but what a heck, you keep me lunatic anyway ;)

You know saying "If you can't win the enemy, join him", you know from movies where hero is undertaker and certainly going to loose, but instead running away he turns against to superior enemy, flying, driving, running and attacking like has lost his/her brains on that last hit.

Do you know how to get rid of nightmare, specially if it repeats every night? Don't run away, turn against and attack against what ever there is that is chasing or if there is place that you scare and it starts pulling you don't try to escape run into that place.

Now what the f***, that JTbo has lost his last braincell you are thinking, maybe, maybe, but all those above are examples of winning fear with adreanaline and this is what you need in reallife, you need to enough strong/braindamaged to go against fear, giving s*** about what to come, then you find that you still are not close to limit and start really enjoying from racing, some never go above that line...

In sim racing, you would need really good imagination to feel this, even with finest VR-helmets and motion simulators you still know that no matter what you do you will be ok, it does not come from your thinking part (sorry, don't know these in english) but from not thinking part of brain, that is what works and solves problems when you sleep etc. Really sorry, I miss totally english words from this area :(

It is quite interesting this human mind, but I should warn you, study it too much and you may get hooked ;)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

it does not come from your thinking part

Well... I guess that depends on the situation, which part we (at least men) think from.... :smileypul :razz:

[JTbo]

Well... I guess that depends on the situation, which part we (at least men) think from.... :smileypul :razz:

Do we mens think? :D

Example (http://www.formulaford.fi/emmak.htm), she was 2nd, at last season in finnish national formula ford series and 5th in Nez serie, now as you know that she is driving ahead of you, can you think overtaking, can you think at all.... ;)
Problem being men comes here as some parts of us are trying to overtake what we would like to do (overtake and win a race for you silly ones) easily you are too polite, can you honestly say that you could fight same way if she would be men?
This is one thing also that racers today has to face :)

Below fear you are in control, above fear you may or may not be in control, with practise you gain control little by little.

[tinvek]

to follow up on becky's example of her crash

anyone remember warrick's crash at the italian gp where he went round the last bend, on his side against the armco and came to rest on the main straight with cars going round him

jumped out of car and into spare for restart

going to an earlier point

anyone seen peterson in the lotus 72 at woodcote?

flat out and sideways, no lift, no brake, no underbody downforce, basic "wings" i.e. stub wings on nose and a simple rear wing shape

cant find a pic or video but painting here

http://www.automobiliauk.com/images/ronnie-jps73.jpg

[Linsen]

Here are two things Ayrton Senna had to say about fear (according to wikipedia):

"Fear is exciting for me"

"Fear is part of people's life. Some of them don't know how to face it, others - where I include myself - learn coexisting with it or face it, not as a negative thing, but like a autoprotection sensation"

Soo, I would certainly feel a lot less fear racing Senna in a 1980s formula-1-car than Becky on a tricycle. Even though I'm sure Becky has lapped Senna many times ;).

[Christian Seidel]

:ices_rofl

[JTbo]

Here are two things Ayrton Senna had to say about fear (according to wikipedia):

"Fear is exciting for me"

"Fear is part of people's life. Some of them don't know how to face it, others - where I include myself - learn coexisting with it or face it, not as a negative thing, but like a autoprotection sensation"

Soo, I would certainly feel a lot less fear racing Senna in a 1980s formula-1-car than Becky on a tricycle. Even though I'm sure Becky has lapped Senna many times ;).

I would say that Senna got it bit wrong, it is not fear that what he was excited from, but adreanaline that can be like a drug... Fear is just stimulant here.

[ajp71]

"Fear is part of people's life. Some of them don't know how to face it, others - where I include myself - learn coexisting with it or face it, not as a negative thing, but like a autoprotection sensation"


No disrespect for his tragic crash at Imola, however, I really don't think Senna is the best example of a racing driver. IMO he was not an all time great because he was such a dirty driver (think of the forcing Prost off track). Intresting he felt fear, maybe that was part of his problem in that he tried to overcome it and ended up in a red mist trying to overcome his fear.

[tristancliffe]

Don't forget Prost did the same thing to Senna a year earlier (different corner, lower speeds, but just as dirty).

[Becky Rose]

I find it rather pointless to argue with people who think that winning some completely irrelevant kart-championship is more important than their health
I'd rather live my whole life in a minute then live a minute in a whole life - and all those other similar sayings.

I love racing and I want to win, but most importantly I want to be on the track. I've made bad judgements, i've crashed, i've come runner up. I've also won. The important thing is that I was on the track, and not sitting on the sidelines wishing I was there - as I am now.

I would certainly feel a lot less fear racing Senna in a 1980s formula-1-car than Becky on a tricycle. Even though I'm sure Becky has lapped Senna many times ;).

Very funny. I am sure I could have learned a lot about racing from the late great Ayrton Senna. He could teach me a thing or two about remote control cars aswell. I could doubtless teach him a few things about computers ... as for who knows most about the mind, his knowledge in this field is undocumented, as is mine. In my previous posts I just echoed my personal experiences combined with a documentary film I saw on the subject. /shrug

[ajp71]

Don't forget Prost did the same thing to Senna a year earlier (different corner, lower speeds, but just as dirty).

Never said Prost was clean or that I hold him as a great either ;)

[travbrad]

Schumacher arguably did the same thing to D. Hill after schumacher hit the wall in Adelaide, so i guess all the world champions have been bad drivers. lol

[Shotglass]

I'd rather live my whole life in a minute then live a minute in a whole life - and all those other similar sayings.

so i guess we finally know who the blackwood guru really is

[tristancliffe]

Yup, I think all the world champions, back to the dawn of motor-racing, have had, and have had to have had, a ruthless killer instinct. In the 'olden' days it was tempered by the fact they they could just as easily kill themselves or someone else doing it, but as safety has improved drivers have just pushed the boundaries in sympathy. That is why motor racing can't be safe, and it's why drivers will always do the dirty if they think they can get away with it (which in F1's case means live and walk afterwards, and even then I think walking would be that high on their list of priorities at that particular moment).

[ajp71]

^^ Disagree mainy fast recent drivers haven't been dirty few I can think of:

Hakkinen
Alonso (pushes the car hard but doesn't tangle with others)
Raikkonen
Schumacher's Ferrari days

[Hyperactive]

^^ Disagree mainy fast recent drivers haven't been dirty few I can think of:

Hakkinen
Alonso (pushes the car hard but doesn't tangle with others)
Raikkonen
Schumacher's Ferrari days

Though if I remember it correctly, Häkkinen got some penalty at some point early in his career because he caused some major accident...?

Btw. Häkkinen rules ;)

[ajp71]

Though if I remember it correctly, Häkkinen got some penalty at some point early in his career because he caused some major accident...?


Maybe I've always remembered him as a clean racer, but then again I was only 9 when he won his second world title.

[Hyperactive]

Maybe I've always remembered him as a clean racer, but then again I was only 9 when he won his second world title.

It's not that he wasn't a clean driver, it was just that he has made (just) one mistake ;)

[ajp71]

^^ Making a mistake is obviously very different to playing dirty.