Why LFS is seriously ill, and why the developpers should change their strategies

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Right. Just a few words before I start presenting my arguments:

I'm starting this thread not for the fun of moaning, but to help everyone to realise what obvious mistakes have been done with LFS' developpement and promotion. I'm doing so just because I do love LFS and the community and sincerly wish to see the developpers to realise that they've gone the wrong way at some point in LFS' history, and that LFS is never going to be the equal of iRacing or any respectable sim if they carry on that way.
I would ask everyone who sincerly enjoy LFS to post their own opinion on the matter.
If this thread comes to be closed by a moderator at some point, I would sincerly ask him a) Why is he doing so? b) What are his views on how LFS is developped and on LFS' future? c) What are his motivations in moderating this forum?
Last thing, if any troll is going to act in this thread, I would sincerly ask him to realise that he would not have the balls to do so if he was in front of real people, instead of his computer screen.
____________

Right, so here we go. In my opinion, here are, the reasons why so much worthy people are loosing any faith in LFS and why they are going to other sims after being disgusted with the way LFS is managed:


1) The developpers are ignoring those who really put a lot of involvement in the community, and do not support them. They also are not aware that LFS needs get some prestige and keep it to keep the interrest. From my own experience, almost every single person who have been really active in the LFS community, such as league organisators, top drivers, and such. I'm not saying that the developpers should be on the forums 24/7 and always available for everyone willing to set up any interresting LFS related project, but I really have the feeling that they are not aware that they are not the only persons who made what LFS is right now. I have the feeling that anyone is treated as random players out there, no matters what they've done in the community, or what they want to do.

LFS.net could be a showcase of what's going on in the community, telling people what sort quality stuff they should follow, instead of being a dead place where everyone can read what updates we should have received 1 year ago in an ideal world.

Also, real life racers are also totally ignored, while they should be a pride and a force for LFS. I'm not even sure that 10% of the licensed players are aware that the Williams F1 test driver used to play LFS and used to drive in leagues that you and me can join. Here again, LFS.net is the answer. How much time would this have taken to make a short article when Williams announced Vallteri Bottas, with a few sentences about his real life carreer and what he has done in LFS? 20 minutes at maximum.


Why does this represent a lack for the community?: Because if LFS maintain a decent prestige, more and more worthy people will get interrested on what's going on and will want to get actively involved. Also, people will actually be proud of LFS and what they are doing inside of LFS and will promote LFS by themselves, to their friends their family, at their workplace, etc.
I remember how I got involved in the league side of LFS, 2 years ago. I found somewhere on this forum a streamed version of a league race of the LFS Beginners' Cup, ran by NDR(it has stopped since then), made by Jonathan Palmer(dekojester). It looked like a TV coverage, and I was so much impressed that stuff that I decided that I HAD to be part of this kind of show one day. It was absolutely magnificent, but attracted very few people because dekojester had no other way to promote his work than putting it on LFS Forum in the middle of some other various pointless threads made by other people. I am sure that if this broadcast(and any other MoE/IGTC coverage by the way) was promoted by the developpers, put on LFS.net and presented in any decent gaming show where LFS is present, it would attract a lot more people.

This looks a bit schematic but basically, the league organisors, broadcast commentators, top IGTC/MoE drivers are treated by the devs like random public racers noobs, while they are producing top notch work that would be able to be an incredible force for the community, but unfortunately remain very confidencial due to the lack of promoting(simply because they do not have the legitimity to do that by themselves). If they continue to feel ignored like this, you can be sure that they will get bored at some point and will decide to leave LFS like burglars and see if there isn't any sims actually interrested in their talent.




What can be done about it:

A properly maintained official website, promoting the work of the community such as streams, leagues or skinpacks. Also, it should be a place where you could find interviews about the top drivers, etc. Seriously, it doesn't require so much time to make one article once in a while(or ask any serious person to do so as a volonteer), about the upcoming MoE/IGTC race for example, Lynce's new pack, or some article explaining Airio's features, I don't know.
A better presence on the forums from the devs, and not only in the Progress report thread. IMO, the devs should go in the forums more often and see what kind of activity is going on, and also comment, make suggestions about the more worthy projects. A "good luck" or a "nice job!" doesn't take much time to be posted, but coming from Scawen, Eric and Victor it is an awersome motivation for anyone, and would give the feeling to anyone interrested.
***


2) The official forum is not properly moderated and became an heterogeneous melt of trolls, perverts and kids thinking that LFS will help them to sort their childish problems, mixing with legitimate LFS lovers willing to share their passion with other people. No need to give much explanation on that one. I'm sure that any active forum user has realised at least once that the moderators, for some reason, are not able to do their job properly, and that it is possible to insult any other members publicly or spamming without receiving any warning.

Why does this represent a lack for the community?: Unlike most of the other sims, LFS has one central forum where any worthy international project is presented here. This should be a force, not a drawback. The problem is that, due to the several problems LFS Forum has been facing, it has a disastrous reputation and I cannot count the amount of people thinking that LFS Forum is the shame of LFS, and do not post here anymore. Due to the fact that LFS Forum is the heart of the community, it should get and maintain a perfect reputation and should be a place where everyone can share his passion about LFS and can express his own opinion without having the fear to be flammed.




What can be done about it:

Be harsher with offenders. If someone do not have enough maturity to hang out there, warning, and then, ban.
Hire new moderators, as the current ones seem to be running out of motivation.
Remove problematic and offensive posts/threads.
***


3) There is an obvious lack of honesty and transparence coming from the developpers about the way LFS is developped. I do admire what the developpers have done so far, but I do not like the path they have been following in the last 2 years. It is useless to explain what you are/have been working on if you are trying to hide what is going wrong in the developpement. The fact that 18 months have passed since the last significative update show that obviously something is going wrong behind the scenes. But the developpers have never been explaining this clearly, which leaded into endless rant and speculation going on the official forums. Seriously, I think that most of the people would understand and respect the developpers position if, instead of acting like dead people, they decided to tell everyone why the developpement speed is going slower than it used to be. Even if, for example, they would tell everyone that they lack of motivation(which is probably the case), and therefore, do not work as fast as they used to do...


Why does this represent a lack for the community?: Because, obviously, no investissor would be interrested in financing an LFS project if they see such a poor way of public relationship from the devs. Also, no need to say that LFS would get more customers if there was actual signs of life going behind the scenes.



What can be done about it:

A developpement blog, or a sub-section on LFS Forum reserved to official statements about LFS' developpement. The devs shouldn't be affraid of people moaning and trolling: they could easily get rid of those people with good and active forums moderators.
***

Conclusion:


The bad shape where LFS is stuck is mainly caused due to the poor politic of public relations made by the developpers since the expansion of the sim(I would say, S2 Alpha release)
The heart of the community will never be able to maintain LFS in a good enough shape on their own as long as they are not decently supported by the developpers
The bad politic of public relation does not directly affect the daily number of players playing the sim as most of the players are casual drivers that are not aware of the LFS community and the way LFS is developped due to the fact that LFS' related websites are badly advertised. On the contrary, it will affect the amount of active players in the community, as they do not feel understood by the developpers
There is no way LFS can match iRacing or any other decent sim as long as no big changes are made in the way LFS is maintained, promoted and developped.
***


Here are my 2 cents. What about yours now? Please take a bit of your time, you, active LFS players, to express what you truely feel.

[J@tko]

I hope I'm not a heterogeneous melt of troll :(

Very well written for a young guy whose first language isn't English [although I'm pretty sure Scavier are developers ;)]

I agree with most of the points raised, apart from perhaps the "LFS will never be as good as iRacing unless...". Personally [coming from someone who has never played iRacing, so I'm almost guessing here] I'd say the current raft of updates will bring LFS much close to it (or I very much hope it does). However, by the time we get them, iRacing will probably have had another huge raft of updates which will just increase the gap again :(

I did write some long post a while back about this but I can't find it now :(

EDIT: Didn't someone post before me here? :S

[DarkTimes]

tl;dr

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Yes, sorry for the mistakes. English isn't my native language indeed, and sometimes it is not that easy to express my opinions in international boards because of that:) But I just tried to explain what I was feeling right now, and what, in my opinion, should be done to keep LFS in a good enough shape.

[jrd.racer]

EDIT: Didn't someone post before me here? :S

Yes me but i was trolling so i deleted it!

[EliteAti]

While i agree with most of your post, however, im sure 3) wont happen.

Why?

1. Scawen - has said himself that he hasnt got motivation to do stuff like that, developing this sim isnt his primary job as it used to be.
2. Eric - wait, who? Is this guy still around?
3. Victor - May be only one of the devs to actually start a section like that, Scawen told that Victor is still doing something, we havent seen anything so this might be the job for him.

4. There might not be anything to report due to work not being done and its a huge shame which will eventually make some people quit this simulation as you have stated it in excellent way. However, this is their Sim, they made it and they can do anything they want with it. As it was stated in EULA, updates werent promised to us, so basically they owe us nothing. However we can still complain about that.

Also, mods havent been doing anything lately, how about recruiting some moderators for this forum Scavier? Im sure trashtalking would end and everyone would get along, unlike sometimes nowadays.

So to provisional conclusion to this post all i can say is that Devs need to wake up, hire more people, (someone like Lynce who has passion and alot of motivation to join along) *cough* take Eric's spot *cough*
and harden the **** up to keep things going around, or a total rupture of community will come at some point.

[Bass-Driver]

the devs should go in the forums more often and see what kind of activity is going on, and also comment,
+1 :schwitz:

[JJ72]

I think the devs are being really honest, Scawan has stated his lack of passion about the project recently and I believe for a 3 man project, really not much will be done unless you trap them in an office working 13 hours a day. They have their own projects and their own life, so I don't believe they are hiding anything. They have no reason to hide because they don't have shareholders and investors to answer to, and in all the time I've known about the devs, they are pretty comfortable with working to their own pace.

And about this part:
"The devs shouldn't be affraid of people moaning and trolling: they could easily get rid of those people with good and active forums moderators."

Why should moaners be removed?

A over moderated forum is a boring forum, you know what is the worst reputation about the LFS forum? Is that you can't say anything negative about LFS.....yeah, stricter moderation will just make it worse.

LFS shouldn't aim to compete with Iracing, it really should re-discover what made it great in the first place, no matter what you try LFS isn't going to have the same production quality of big budget releases. I agree LFS should use the talented user base to their advantage, the community spirit and the casual atmosphere of it especially, it will take someone close to the devs to think over. LFS cannot compete in budget and development speed, not ever, but there are things that doesn't cost much but makes a lot of difference.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

While i agree with most of your post, however, im sure 3) wont happen.

Why?

1. Scawen - has said himself that he hasnt got motivation to do stuff like that, developing this sim isnt his primary job as it used to be.
2. Eric - wait, who? Is this guy still around?
3. Victor - May be only one of the devs to actually start a section like that, Scawen told that Victor is still doing something, we havent seen anything so this might be the job for him.

4. There might not be anything to report due to work not being done and its a huge shame which will eventually make some people quit this simulation as you have stated it in excellent way. However, this is their Sim, they made it and they can do anything they want with it. As it was stated in EULA, updates werent promised to us, so basically they owe us nothing. However we can still complain about that.

Also, mods havent been doing anything lately, how about recruiting some moderators for this forum Scavier? Im sure trashtalking would end and everyone would get along, unlike sometimes nowadays.

So to provisional conclusion to this post all i can say is that Devs need to wake up, hire more people, (someone like Lynce who has passion and alot of motivation to join along) *cough* take Eric's spot *cough*
and harden the **** up to keep things going around, or a total rupture of community will come at some point.

I totally agree. Indeed, LFS is the developpers' baby, so they can do whatever they want with it. I do understand they could get bored in the end with their job, but morally, I don't think it is very nice to treat the people who actually helped them to make LFS what is it now.

The devs really need to wake up once for all and hopefully this thread will help them to get real once for all and treat us like the ones who helped them to make the sim what it is now, at the very least like potential customers for S3.

[z-ro 8]

I really don't like to respond to such posts, but I for one have taken the attitude to overlook what LFS lacks simply because of how much I enjoy the people who play it.

But if fewer people play on a daily basis, my arguement becomes moot.

TBH honest, I don't know crap about what it takes to make, maintain or develop a sim. But I can say that if whoever is responsible for doing so is overwhelmed, or just doesn't give two shits, let someone else help.

Everyone has their limits, and there's always someone willling to step up and help out.

[rc10racer]

:really::shrug::shy::):D

[JazzOn]

;1391787']3) There is an obvious lack of honesty and transparence coming from the developpers about the way LFS is developped. I do admire what the developpers have done so far, but I do not like the path they have been following in the last 2 years. It is useless to explain what you are/have been working on if you are trying to hide what is going wrong in the developpement. The fact that 18 months have passed since the last significative update show that obviously something is going wrong behind the scenes. But the developpers have never been explaining this clearly, which leaded into endless rant and speculation going on the official forums. Seriously, I think that most of the people would understand and respect the developpers position if, instead of acting like dead people, they decided to tell everyone why the developpement speed is going slower than it used to be. Even if, for example, they would tell everyone that they lack of motivation(which is probably the case), and therefore, do not work as fast as they used to do...


I can't agree with that, because Scawen just recently told what's going on and never lied. He admitted that its not no1 priority ATM. Reporting publicly whats not working out is pointless. It's self-demotivating and a waste of time, if you know what i mean. Scawen/Devs are the only one who need to know whats going on.

[oldnavy]

Well this statment that LFS is done by 3 man and its very good for 3 mens sounds not logic to me. Why its imposible to take more people to get into devlopment of this game? Just becasue you couldnt say that its done by 3 man? And im sure that you would easily find people who would help to this and development would become faster and ofcouse more people would be interested in. And i agree with all yann stuff

[AndroidXP]

First the Brazilians, now the French :schwitz:
I guess it's that time of the yea... month again.
1. Scawen - has said himself that he hasnt got motivation to do stuff like that, developing this sim isnt his primary job as it used to be.
Just in case:
There is some misreading of my post going on. LFS development is not on the back burner, and I never said I don't like my work.

I said, I am working on the physics and I look forward to releasing it because of the excitement of it and I added that of course also it will be good for earnings!

To be entirely clear... since our "official" progress report we discovered bugs and further analysis showed other flaws in the tyre model. Further development of the tyre model and further analysis showed up more issues as well. This is that model which we think feels very nice to drive in most sutuations. I am not interested in "fudging" or "bodging" the tyre model and it takes time, research and thinking space to come to the right solutions.

Around Christmas and New Year, time spent with family and so on also causes some delays. I don't regret that.

My post was supposed to let you know what's going on, after dozens of people were complaining about a wall of silence, developers hiding under a rock and all that.

I hope you now have a better understanding of what I was saying. Some guys, please don't try to take the worst possible view of everything. Most people did understand!

Now regarding your points... I won't bother. Regardless of their validity, such threads lead nowhere and won't change anything. The devs always did things their way and will continue to do so, whether "we" like it or not. Call me jaded, but I've seen this happen again and again, the worst outcome being one of the devs pissed off, the best having them ignore the thread entirely. If everything goes *really* good then this thread will die from inactivity rather than the mods closing it due to the almost inevitable flamewar.

[DarkTimes]

Well this statment that LFS is done by 3 man and its very good for 3 mens sounds not logic to me. Why its imposible to take more people to get into devlopment of this game? Just becasue you couldnt say that its done by 3 man? And im sure that you would easily find people who would help to this and development would become faster and ofcouse more people would be interested in. And i agree with all yann stuff
This has been discussed many, many, many times before. The reason that the devs don't hire more people is because they don't want to. It's as simple as that. They chose to make the game like this, it's how they prefer to work.

[JJ72]

Well this statment that LFS is done by 3 man and its very good for 3 mens sounds not logic to me. Why its imposible to take more people to get into devlopment of this game? Just becasue you couldnt say that its done by 3 man? And im sure that you would easily find people who would help to this and development would become faster and ofcouse more people would be interested in. And i agree with all yann stuff

I don't think there's an enough customer base to support a larger team with full paid (if you are expecting them to do full time jobs), to go bigger you will need more initial investments, which brings in investors which will demand a sound financial return, which will end up making LFS coporate.

And I would imagine Scavier having less interest working on it even more when that happens.

[e.M]

greybull u are seriously ill

[arrowkart4]

ergh

[NotAnIllusion]

The way in which LFS is currently being developed doesn't bother me one bit.

Next thread.

[DeadWolfBones]

As one of those league admins mentioned in part 1, I think it has some validity, but at the same time I truly believe that the devs don't owe us (admins) anything, as nice as it would be to get some official promotion + admin tools built into the sim.

[Furiously-Fast]

Maybe the devs should let Eric be the one who is the one that looks at forum activity, and give replies on what people think. If he is an artist, then surely he can't be doing much, apart from modelling that S3 car. Nothing much to work on especially as the Scirocco and Rockingham are pretty much complete models. I just hope he won't get as angry as he was on his 3rd post. :x

[DevilDare]

Silly IMO. Beware, what you are about to read is MY opinion.

First of all, let me just say this; iRacing.com can easily be called a company. There is a reason why they have huge headquarters and are working with top level motorsport and are getting all the promotion. Thats also the reason they are able to produce quality content on such short time.
They are making money everyday. Like I said in the other thread, I wouldnt be surprised if the devs are simply not motivated enough because they know they are not getting enough out of it in terms of money.
Scavier is a 3 man team, therefore I dare calling them "indie" developers. They do not have the resources, nor the financial back up to produce at the same pace as iRacing does.
It is quite simply stupid IMO to compare them in any way when it comes to the developers themselves.
I am not saying that Scawen, or Eric or Victor aren't as good as the guys at iRacing. I am however, saying that you dont need to know rocket science to figure out that more people will produce faster.

So there you go. Ofcourse LFS will not be as good as iRacing. iR came in and took over because they saw this as a proper investment that would bring a lot of money. LFS on the other hand, was simply a hobby. There is a bloody huge difference.

The whole idea of the devs being isolated from the community also sounds somewhat stupid. Reporting MoE/IGTC/NDR events at LFS.net? Why should they? What will this bring to THEM? Am I missing something here?
There is the news section in LFS World where you can add all your events and whatnot. They are displayed at the main page of the forums for everyone to see. How is that not enough?

Also, devs do not have to promote the work of the community. No one asked them to develop addons and all that. Sure its a great thing to have and it really improved LFS and how we play it, but they were not forced to do it. And thats another thing, it is made BY the community, FOR the community.

Its like you would start expecting ISI to promote the mods to rFactor. Plain silly. Thats the players job. (Simraceway/rFactor Central/Inside Sim Racing etc)

On the same note, do you actually know any game company that is promoting the stuff fans make?

I will somewhat agree with the moderation part tho. The mods are very unpredictable. One time they will ban you for something minor, and the other ignore when it really needs to be acted on.
I dont blame them tho. This place is a mess. There is no lying about that. But then again, which forum isn't? Thats how internet works. The mods can do very little about it.

There you go. Please feel free to disagree with me. Thats simply how I see things right now.

[JJ72]

Maybe the devs should let Eric be the one who is the one that looks at forum activity, and give replies on what people think. If he is an artist, then surely he can't be doing much, apart from modelling that S3 car. Nothing much to work on especially as the Scirocco and Rockingham are pretty much complete models. I just hope he won't get as angry as he was on his 3rd post. :x

Asking an art guy to do PR? He'll rather chop his dick off. :razz:

[SparkyDave]

IMO this is just another thread trying to make out the LFS Devs should do more, very well worded for a non native english speaker tho :)

Also people thinking that "do it this way" or "do it that way" will change anything the devs do is just silly, they do what they will, when they want! and theres nothing wrong with that.

"mistakes in LFS development" and "lfs will never match iracing" are just very silly statements also.

If your very rich then go to iracing you might be able to afford all the content :) but don't come here and try to fix lfs with one post.

SD.

[UnknownMaster21]

IMO LFS 4 Ever! :thumbsup:


Think about that folks!

[Furiously-Fast]

Asking an art guy to do PR? He'll rather chop his dick off. :razz:

:uglyhamme

So it is either up to Victor or they get someone to work for them (very unlikely) to do PR's. Scawen seems a bit stressed out since his tyre physics plans haven't gone too well. The last thing he will want is people moaning at him for trying to do his best and being forced to answer why development speed is slow over and over again.

[JJ72]

Scawan's wife (damn I forgot her name) were mentioned to be in sort of PR position, but I guess the idea just disappeared without notice....not that I would expect that to work out anyway.

LFS is much like an indie band, they made a few good records, had a bit of fun, picked up a few self-important fanboys and then gone with the wind. That's how it should be.

[TexasLTU]

Holy cow, I di'nt knew that!
Even tho people are losing interest in LFS, and it affects MoE, IGTC, etc., moans won't bring Scirocco/Rockingham/Physics or whatsoever you want. Its easy to compare LFS to rFactor or iRacing itself, which is waay too overpriced. Like Devildare said, LFS is made by 3 enthusiasts who were keen to spend their time on making this, and I reckon they're not happy or motivated to do any more when they see dramatic whines of "lfs is too old" "wheres my scirocco" "tyre physics are bad, gimme new" etc. etc.

[Bmxtwins]

I think that if the dev's expanded the current selection to a American stock car, and maybe incorporated more ovals. That they could increase the sales in the Americas. Maybe just sell it as an addon pack of ovals with an oval car. Lfs would be a great alternative to THOSE WHO CANT AFFORD IRACING BUT STILL WANT REALISTIC OVAL RACING! I am sure the devs could also find people in the community to help them with the data and testing physics for this. As long as it isnt NASCAR promoted, I'm sure that general stock cars could be developed and various ovals including fictional and realistic tracks could be created.

I have some experience in Nascar Heat with modeling tracks , I can tell you that it isnt the hardest thing in the world to do. However I am sure the physics portion is rather difficult. I know that the devs really do not want to allow player editing but it may be a good idea. Instead of having people release random mod's maybe have it so that the devs must approve them and then they can release them to the cummunity via the LFS forums.

The devs should consider the input we give them as we are the reason they are getting money from this simulator. I think the devs have done a great job developing and the quality is great bit the speed isnt all that great. I am sure that there are people out there willing to help. If the devs want to make more money from this sim then they will need to release new updates more rapidly, or atleast give us updates, so people will have their money in their hands and be ready to buy some new trakcs or cars.

There is no way that the cummunity will survive at this rate, and it should survive, because the sim is great. The devs need to step in a little bit more and show us screenshoots and videos of what these new tireswill do, how the new cars look, and maybe a passover of the track ? All these little things can help LFS succeed more easily.

And lastly, advertising. LFS does NOT ADVERTISE WHATSOEVER. We should be advertising at sim racing sites, advertising at real racing sites, and more... maybe promoting it to real life drivers asking them to try it for realism and to increase the popularity, because if they like it they will recomend it.


Thank you.
PS: I think the devs have done a great job and I am really enjoying myself but this SIM could use some more development or atleast teasers. To us it looks very slow but I am sure that you are working hard and not showing us everthing.

[J@tko]

TBH LFS is particularly hideous for Oval Racing [bad drafting model and dodgy collision detection] and tyre physics isn't going to fix that.

[Glenn67]

LFS shouldn't aim to compete with Iracing, it really should re-discover what made it great in the first place...

Agree 100% :thumb:

I think Scawen is doing the right thing to take his time to get his head around the physics as this will probably be the last time he does a major overhaul on tyre physics. Ultimately if he can get that right the rest will fall into place imo

One of the key differences between LFS and iRacing that I find currently is that in LFS I'd get up to a certain performance level then really struggle to see how it's possible to go faster, in iRacing I still have to work hard at going faster but I always feel I can get more out of it. Hard to describe what I mean there but I believe it comes down to the tyre physics and track dynamics it's just more convincing in iRacing at the moment.

I don't see why LFS has to compete with iRacing either as I'll certainly give S3 a go when it comes out and if I like it will run that along with iRacing - the two can happily coincide :nod:

[piggy501]

;1391787'] Last thing, if any troll is going to act in this thread, I would sincerly ask him to realise that he would not have the balls to do so if he was in front of real people, instead of his computer screen.
2) The official forum is not properly moderated and became an heterogeneous melt of trolls, perverts and kids thinking that LFS will help them to sort their childish problems, mixing with legitimate LFS lovers willing to share their passion with other people.

What can be done about it:

Be harsher with offenders. If someone do not have enough maturity to hang out there, warning, and then, ban.
Hire new moderators, as the current ones seem to be running out of motivation.
Remove problematic and offensive posts/threads.
***

If the below people would have read the above, I wouldn't have felt so obliged to report their posts.

tl;dr

:really::shrug::shy::):D

ergh

greybull u are seriously ill



Did i just hear a pin drop....:em31:

I do agree with some points, a few more updates would be nicer, but I don't expect this and it probably won't happen. Maybe one a month would do.

Also, a three man dev team is cute and feels more homemade, but its not getting the job done as fast as the community seems to want. As said, a few more devs, even if it was just doubling the team size would help very much. Pick a few people out of the addons section, like Lynce, ask if they would help and see how it goes.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

tl;dr

If you can't even be bothered to read my thread, why can you be bothered to post in it?

Anyway, I'm happy you posted this as it proves my point: spam is a problem on LFS Forum.

Now, if you can't have your own opinion, either shut up or buy one. Thanks.

I think the devs are being really honest, Scawan has stated his lack of passion about the project recently and I believe for a 3 man project, really not much will be done unless you trap them in an office working 13 hours a day. They have their own projects and their own life, so I don't believe they are hiding anything. They have no reason to hide because they don't have shareholders and investors to answer to, and in all the time I've known about the devs, they are pretty comfortable with working to their own pace.

I must say, I pretty much tried to chock people on purpose with argument n°3. Scawen isn't really lying to us indeed, but lots of work need to be done on the communication and customer service side of the sim. No one knows exactly what Scawen stated about X or Y except people actually searching for Scawen's post history because no one can be bothered to read the "Progress Report thread" until page 35.

I do know that Scawen cares of his sim, somehow:D But I'm mostly stating that for any casual people, he's giving the impression to hide himself in the masses. As I stated before, LFS.net is an underused tool, why don't Scawen use it a bit more in order to express his mood?

And about this part:
"The devs shouldn't be affraid of people moaning and trolling: they could easily get rid of those people with good and active forums moderators."

Why should moaners be removed?

A over moderated forum is a boring forum, you know what is the worst reputation about the LFS forum? Is that you can't say anything negative about LFS.....yeah, stricter moderation will just make it worse.

Well, I kinda agree on that one. Moaning should be allowed of course(And it'd better be for me, because I'm kinda moaning right now:razz:), I just meant that moaning has some limits and should remain constructive. Posts such as "Scawen sucks, now give update or go die in a fire" are a good example of unconstructive(and unrespectous towards the devs and the community) that shouldn't be allowed. And this is why the mods are there.

LFS shouldn't aim to compete with Iracing, it really should re-discover what made it great in the first place, no matter what you try LFS isn't going to have the same production quality of big budget releases. I agree LFS should use the talented user base to their advantage, the community spirit and the casual atmosphere of it especially, it will take someone close to the devs to think over. LFS cannot compete in budget and development speed, not ever, but there are things that doesn't cost much but makes a lot of difference.

This makes sence, yea:thumbsup: But I do belive that LFS has the potential to at least keep its current quality members if minimal efforts are done now.


I really don't like to respond to such posts, but I for one have taken the attitude to overlook what LFS lacks simply because of how much I enjoy the people who play it.

But if fewer people play on a daily basis, my arguement becomes moot.

TBH honest, I don't know crap about what it takes to make, maintain or develop a sim. But I can say that if whoever is responsible for doing so is overwhelmed, or just doesn't give two shits, let someone else help.

Everyone has their limits, and there's always someone willling to step up and help out.

This makes sence, and not so much time ago, I used to think like you. But obviously, the amount of quality people moving/willing to move to iRacing is just making me too sad:(

I can't agree with that, because Scawen just recently told what's going on and never lied. He admitted that its not no1 priority ATM. Reporting publicly whats not working out is pointless. It's self-demotivating and a waste of time, if you know what i mean. Scawen/Devs are the only one who need to know whats going on.

Yeah, somehow I agree. This post tries to prove JJ72's point, so check my answer to JJ72's post for my reaction about this.

First the Brazilians, now the French :schwitz:


Sorry, what do you mean exactly?

greybull u are seriously ill


Haha. I must say, I laughed on that one:D

Now, seeing your post history and your sig, I have good reasons to think that the only reason why you're hanging on there is to troll. So I can understand that you have reasons to tr to pretend I'm ill. Just check again what I proposed for the guys like you. Section 2), "What should be done about it", first proposition, that is:thumb:

The way in which LFS is currently being developed doesn't bother me one bit.

Next thread.

Good you expressed your opinion I think. This is rather nice to see people stil enjoying the game for what it is now, and what it could be, but it shouldn't be.

I guess you didn't read my thread well anyway as I'm not really speaking about the way is developped but much more the way LFS is maintained and promoted. These are rather different things.

[franky500]

Fantastically worded post In fact its probably the best post i have seen around here in a while... But it is just another one of the many "I'm bored, give me new content" threads.

Development continues, the devolopment plan is set. our job in the community is to wait... patiently... OR if thats not possible, Play something else whilst waiting... :shrug:



Also, mods havent been doing anything lately, how about recruiting some moderators for this forum Scavier? Im sure trashtalking would end and everyone would get along, unlike sometimes nowadays.


@ EliteAti... I beg to differ, Theres been plenty of moderation going on, Although you might not notice it due to the amount of bad users currently stalking the forums.

This thread is likely to end in one of 2 ways.. either with a Fanboy vs non-Fanboy flame war, or closed.

It seems "ok" right now, but i'll be monitering closely over the next few hours.

Although i cant say i agree with the thread title, Perhaps you would consider changing it for the sake of keeping things tidy...

[z-ro 8]

@Bmx: why give them more work, when the issue is completing the work that already needs to be done? And you won't get realistic oval racing with unrealistic cars anyway.
Leave the ovals to rFactor, NH and iRacing, and let LFS be what it is.

[piggy501]

Fantastically worded post In fact its probably the best post i have seen around here in a while... But it is just another one of the many "I'm bored, give me new content" threads.

I agree with the first bit, but I disagree that it's a "give me more content" style thread. I think he (Greybull) is highlighting what he feels should be done to improve the relationship between Scavier and the consumers, and I would agree the bond between 3 devs and the users of their product, that have paid for it to help pay their bills, is a bit lacking. I would personally like to see this increased.


@ EliteAti... I beg to differ, Theres been plenty of moderation going on, Although you might not notice it due to the amount of bad users currently stalking the forums.

Recruitment time for more moderators perhaps?

[AndroidXP]

;1391867']Sorry, what do you mean exactly?
It's a joke about the Brazilian "LFS is doomed" trio that all started here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3643 (please note both date and general content/aim of the thread)

Ahh, good old times :)

[DarkTimes]

;1391867']If you can't even be bothered to read my thread, why can you be bothered to post in it?
Because it's the same old blah blah blah bullshit that's been posted on these forums by someone new every week for the last five years.

If the below people would have read the above, I wouldn't have felt so obliged to report their posts.
Oh, you reported my post. I expect I'll get banned then.

Did I mention I had chicken arrabbiata for breakfast? It was a bit spicy, but worth it.

[oldnavy]

well about dumb post at forum: It's just a part of forum life you cant have active forum without spam

[J@tko]

well about dumb post at forum: It's just a part of forum life you cant have active forum without spam
Ban the spammers and you have an active forum without spam :shrug:

[GreyBull [CHA]]

IMO this is just another thread trying to make out the LFS Devs should do more, very well worded for a non native english speaker tho :)

Also people thinking that "do it this way" or "do it that way" will change anything the devs do is just silly, they do what they will, when they want! and theres nothing wrong with that.

"mistakes in LFS development" and "lfs will never match iracing" are just very silly statements also.

If your very rich then go to iracing you might be able to afford all the content :) but don't come here and try to fix lfs with one post.

SD.

Thanks for the first part:thumbsup:

I'm aware the devs aren't gonna follow exactly what they read in this section anyway, but I still belive they read the forum once in a while, which helps them to see how the community react and such.

Unfortunately I can't afford iRacing and anyway, I just love LFS more than I could enjoy iR. But there are interresting ideas in iR that the LFS devs could consider.

Silly IMO. Beware, what you are about to read is MY opinion.

First of all, let me just say this; iRacing.com can easily be called a company. There is a reason why they have huge headquarters and are working with top level motorsport and are getting all the promotion. Thats also the reason they are able to produce quality content on such short time.
They are making money everyday. Like I said in the other thread, I wouldnt be surprised if the devs are simply not motivated enough because they know they are not getting enough out of it in terms of money.
Scavier is a 3 man team, therefore I dare calling them "indie" developers. They do not have the resources, nor the financial back up to produce at the same pace as iRacing does.
It is quite simply stupid IMO to compare them in any way when it comes to the developers themselves.
I am not saying that Scawen, or Eric or Victor aren't as good as the guys at iRacing. I am however, saying that you dont need to know rocket science to figure out that more people will produce faster.

So there you go. Ofcourse LFS will not be as good as iRacing. iR came in and took over because they saw this as a proper investment that would bring a lot of money. LFS on the other hand, was simply a hobby. There is a bloody huge difference.

The whole idea of the devs being isolated from the community also sounds somewhat stupid. Reporting MoE/IGTC/NDR events at LFS.net? Why should they? What will this bring to THEM? Am I missing something here?
There is the news section in LFS World where you can add all your events and whatnot. They are displayed at the main page of the forums for everyone to see. How is that not enough?

Also, devs do not have to promote the work of the community. No one asked them to develop addons and all that. Sure its a great thing to have and it really improved LFS and how we play it, but they were not forced to do it. And thats another thing, it is made BY the community, FOR the community.

Its like you would start expecting ISI to promote the mods to rFactor. Plain silly. Thats the players job. (Simraceway/rFactor Central/Inside Sim Racing etc)

On the same note, do you actually know any game company that is promoting the stuff fans make?

I will somewhat agree with the moderation part tho. The mods are very unpredictable. One time they will ban you for something minor, and the other ignore when it really needs to be acted on.
I dont blame them tho. This place is a mess. There is no lying about that. But then again, which forum isn't? Thats how internet works. The mods can do very little about it.

There you go. Please feel free to disagree with me. Thats simply how I see things right now.

Indeed,you cannot really compare LFS with iR, as they are so much different. But somehow, they are competing together, as they both are racing sims and are attracting the same type of customers. And LFS is loosing many players to iR. If LFS wants to remain competitive against iR then it'll have make some chances I guess.

TBH LFS is particularly hideous for Oval Racing and tyre physics isn't going to fix that.

Indeed:thumbsup:

If the below people would have read the above, I wouldn't have felt so obliged to report their posts.

I do agree with some points, a few more updates would be nicer, but I don't [B]expect this and it probably won't happen. Maybe one a month would do.

Also, a three man dev team is cute and feels more homemade, but its not getting the job done as fast as the community seems to want. As said, a few more devs, even if it was just doubling the team size would help very much. Pick a few people out of the addons section, like Lynce, ask if they would help and see how it goes.

:thumbsup: Totally agree.

Fantastically worded post In fact its probably the best post i have seen around here in a while... But it is just another one of the many "I'm bored, give me new content" threads.

Thanks, but nah, it isn't really. Most of the OP isn't dealing with the content, but much more with the general strategy the devs are trying to follow, which isn't well understable for the random community member. Most of the people do not understand if the devs are still working on LFS, what they really think about how's the community going, if they enjoy the stuff some community members are working on...

IMO, either you decide to act like a big company and let the community deal with its own forums, or you decide to stay close to the community and take some of your time to answer to the fans etc.

The thing is, if you are willing to follow option n°1, you actually have to maintain a place where you actually tell people what

I have the feeling LFS can't really decide between the two options unfortunately, which ends up in a messy public relation system.

[oldnavy]

Ban the spammers and you have an active forum without spam :shrug:

most of "spamers" are the ppl who keeps that forum active, sometimes they post spam sometimes good stuff so this would be bad in most casses

[NotAnIllusion]

;1391867']I guess you didn't read my thread well anyway as I'm not really speaking about the way is developped but much more the way LFS is maintained and promoted. These are rather different things.
Promotion is heavily interlinked with development, from my PoV. I don't particularly want LFS to be promoted much with no ETA on S2 "retail". In the current stage of development, which RL racers use LFS is of no interest to me. Featuring community content and events would be fine, but tbh until certain steps in development have taken place, I'd do no more than spend 5 seconds skimming a feature :shrug:

[piggy501]

;1391888']Unfortunately I can't afford iRacing and anyway, I just love LFS more than I could enjoy iR. But there are interresting ideas in iR that the LFS devs could consider.

I'm stuck with the same situation as you, so I can only use LFS. iRacing looks great and if LFS had more devs, it would be able to keep up and also improve to similar levels.

;1391888']IMO, either you decide to act like a big company and let the community deal with its own forums, or you decide to stay close to the community and take some of your time to answer to the fans etc.

The thing is, if you are willing to follow option n°1, you actually have to maintain a place where you actually tell people what

I have the feeling LFS can't really decide between the two options unfortunately, which ends up in a messy public relation system.

I agree. They're acting like a big company, but they're only small. The phrase "Acting too big for their boots." springs to mind.

My mum works for PR... :scratchch

[GreyBull [CHA]]

It's a joke about the Brazilian "LFS is doomed" trio that all started here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3643 (please note both date and general content/aim of the thread)

Ahh, good old times :)

Made my day:thumb:

Because it's the same old blah blah blah bullshit that's been posted on these forums by someone new every week for the last five years.


You make absolutely no sence dude. If you feel this thread is useless, ignore it, don't troll it like that, it's just so stupid, and your own bullshit won't improve anything there either. Unless you enjoy trolling, which is probably the case.

Franky, Piggy is right actually. Time to do something for the moderation perhaps?

[JazzOn]

;1391867']... he's giving the impression to hide himself in the masses. As I stated before, LFS.net is an underused tool, why don't Scawen use it a bit more in order to express his mood?

This is what i was on about saying 'demotivating'. If he'd go all out regulary and share his 'feeling' or self expectations, the flaming and especially rumors, ect, would only be pushed. Past has shown that this happens inevitably.
You need to consider here again, that not all users, may it be licensed or demo, are as mature as others. After all it's a public forum.

And 1 thing i'd like to say regards Iracing. If i'm informed correct. Krammer is basicly working for 20 years on iracing, by making connections and so on... so this will always be hard to keep up.

I think once it's finished they will promote it properly.

PS: I'd agree on the moderating issuse.. at least sometimes in the skins section. But thats just my 2 cents ;)

[AndRand]

;1391787']
Also, real life racers are also totally ignored, while they should be a pride and a force for LFS. I'm not even sure that 10% of the licensed players are aware that the Williams F1 test driver used to play LFS and used to drive in leagues that you and me can join. Here again, LFS.net is the answer.
Great post Greybull and you have serious points here.

IMO LFS guided racings sims just up to the level when they became acceptable by real racers community what they treated before as "playstation games". I was hoping then that those communities would interfere and sims would even become a playground area for future real racers. However LFS progress slowed down, some flaws are to be fixed now, and iRacing went over that point and became such a platform that gives opportunity for a lot of people to race with real life racers.

I would blame contradictory objectives that devs have - first, the very important point of LFS was to have best phisics best optimized for online play that gives respect for the sim.
Second, I reckon, and I seriously and undoubtely do not know why, that popularity of demo servers, mostly populated by kids, is something regarded by devs as rewarding. Graphics and new content is something appauling to gameplayers, therefore I also dont understand why devs dont give props to third parties creating such content that would be appreciated by gameplayers. Well they did, some of them where included in several patches I think.

So I see as as a challenge is to find good equilibrium or rather solutions to those objectives.

I also agree that this forum is known for the community so any new content that would promote LFS and its capabilities on the official site would be welcomed.

[SidiousX]

Know what else would make LFS better? Scirocco.

[arco]

Put them in an office and let them work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, like most people in this world does while still managing family and other stuff, and I'm sure things would happen a lot faster. But as we all know that's not the way they want to work, and the reason they went solo. I totally undestand that, and it sure has its upsides, but also some downsides.

[piggy501]

Know what else would make LFS better? Scirocco.

Saying that won't help. It'll just cause a bitchfight and get the thread locked, which defeats the purpose of the thread.

[Shotglass]

ask not what your race sim can do for you ask what you can do for your race sim

ok ill stop paraphrasing bubba ho tep now

[majod]

very nice first post....sad thing is that it won't change anything...

[Intrepid]

;1391787']...

If your so smart and business acute won't don't you start your own racing simulator?



oh... thought not!

[hyntty]

Fantastically worded post In fact its probably the best post i have seen around here in a while... But it is just another one of the many "I'm bored, give me new content" threads.

Development continues, the devolopment plan is set. our job in the community is to wait... patiently... OR if thats not possible, Play something else whilst waiting... :shrug:

@ EliteAti... I beg to differ, Theres been plenty of moderation going on, Although you might not notice it due to the amount of bad users currently stalking the forums.

This thread is likely to end in one of 2 ways.. either with a Fanboy vs non-Fanboy flame war, or closed.

It seems "ok" right now, but i'll be monitering closely over the next few hours.

Although i cant say i agree with the thread title, Perhaps you would consider changing it for the sake of keeping things tidy...

Sorry but this post just made me literally do an epic facepalm. I would have done a double facepalm but my hands are so large it takes only one to cover my face.

I'm not going to point out what is wrong with it. Seriously dude. If you can't figure it out yourself, then [insert rude personal insult regarding one's parents using contraceptives here].

[AndRand]

If your so smart and business acute won't don't you start your own racing simulator?

these people did http://www.xmotorracing.com/
it looks that they can achieve something similar to rFactor model with more advanced phisics

[AndroidXP]

these people did http://www.xmotorracing.com/
it looks that they can achieve something similar to rFactor model with more advanced phisics
Sorry for OT, but have you actually tried it? Its physics are horrible :x

That said, however, the argument that you must've done something yourself before you can criticise it is absolute BS.

[AndRand]

Sorry for OT, but have you actually tried it? Its physics are horrible :x
actually not, just saw car configuration screenshots :tilt:

edit: actually I just did... and can say nothing :D I know my comp is not modern but I didnt think it is such a crap. It goes quite well for high graphics and full grid in LFS and in x-motor was such a crap - 1 car, graaphics on lowest and just few fps... pfff

[J@tko]

If your so smart and business acute won't don't you start your own racing simulator?



oh... thought not!
I HAZ BINGO!!!!

Where's my prize?

[franky500]

Sorry but this post just made me literally do an epic facepalm. I would have done a double facepalm but my hands are so large it takes only one to cover my face.

I'm not going to point out what is wrong with it. Seriously dude. If you can't figure it out yourself, then [insert rude personal insult regarding one's parents using contraceptives here].

looks like im the fool then... spell it out to me would you please :thumb:

[boosterfire]

In my opinion, LFS is hardly a sustainable project with the amount of development it receives, and from what we recently learned, simply from the amount of attention it receives. I do not think that Scawen at any point expected, or wanted, LFS to become a huge production game. He's got his style of work, and if it wasn't suited for him, he'd have found out by now. It is, however, not suited for the game.

In fact, maybe it's a sustainable project, but only that, and nothing more. Stagnancy is not something you want a video game to do.

Hiring more people would really be the only way to get out of this in a significant way, but obviously that will not happen.

I've always liked LFS (proof, I'm still here), and I've always thought that it was a project with immense potential. However, at this point in time, I'm forced to admit that it will remain a project with unfulfilled hopes; whose potential will remain untouched. I'm still fond of this game, but maybe I'm just kidding myself when I come to these forums every day, to see if there's something interesting new going on.

Ultimately, I think that Scawen's idea of the game simply does not fit anybody else but him. This is not how you develop a successful video game.

[ACCAkut]

Just out of intrest, why does it say "You have already rated this thread" when I try to give this more than 1 star? :shrug: I didnt vote before.

[bunder9999]

A long jumbled mess in no particular order...

Hire new moderators, as the current ones seem to be running out of motivation.

I beg to differ, Theres been plenty of moderation going on, Although you might not notice it due to the amount of bad users currently stalking the forums.

The_Angry_Angel recently moved on from moderation, and it was suggested that someone take his place, but there was no further discussion after that, at least in public. :shrug:

Just out of intrest, why does it say "You have already rated this thread" when I try to give this more than 1 star? I didnt vote before.

Forum bug, I reported it (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=65576) to victor a month or so ago, no fix as of yet. :shrug:

Why should moaners be removed?

A over moderated forum is a boring forum, you know what is the worst reputation about the LFS forum? Is that you can't say anything negative about LFS.....yeah, stricter moderation will just make it worse.

A thread discussing one's dislike for particular items relating to LFS shouldn't be grounds for moderation, unless things get really out of hand. Franky said it pretty well...

This thread is likely to end in one of 2 ways.. either with a Fanboy vs non-Fanboy flame war, or closed.

The problem in this aspect isn't the moderators, it's the forum goers. Because people are inherently biased, there probably isn't much that can be done outside of locking those threads, and handing out infractions to people who create new threads just to spam their dislike (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=66742).

A properly maintained official website, promoting the work of the community such as streams, leagues or skinpacks.

I actually like this idea. The current LFS main page is rather plain. The problem here is, that there are so many leagues going on at the same time, it would probably turn into a similar area like the LFSW news section, if not worse.

I am sure that if this broadcast(and any other MoE/IGTC coverage by the way) was promoted by the developers, put on LFS.net and presented in any decent gaming show where LFS is present, it would attract a lot more people.

I've tried watching a couple streams of races in the past, and the sites that people are doing these broadcasts from are rather bad. Laggy chatboxes, people's MSN's going off during the broadcast, and other problems can make watching steams unbearable. If there was a better way of doing these broadcasts though, I'd be all for it. With regards to publicizing LFS via leagues, MTV3 Finland (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=54836&highlight=mtv).

A developement blog

I won't even go there, that horse has already been beaten to death. With only 3 developers, one being dedicated to actual game coding, and no dedicated PR agent, the chances of this happening are rather slim.

Reporting publicly whats not working out is pointless. It's self-demotivating and a waste of time, if you know what i mean. Scawen/Devs are the only one who need to know whats going on.

Most definitely. They told us that they are reworking the physics (especially with tires). They told us we're getting a new car and track, with the possibility of even more in the future. I believe that is sufficient, regardless of the it takes to actually get them done and released. Victor keeps his own LFSW dev blog VIA the home icon (despite the lack of mentioning that the chatbox is gone).

The devs need to step in a little bit more and show us screenshots and videos of what these new tires will do, how the new cars look, and maybe a passover of the track? All these little things can help LFS succeed more easily.

VWS video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsYGl5fK93Q) Rockingham "blog" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsYGl5fK93Q) Rockingham's RL official track configurations (http://www.rockingham.co.uk/about/circuits.asp)

i think i'm done for now, i'm probably getting close to the post character limit.

[CELTIC100]

+1 to GreyBull for this thread - one of the most thought provoking Mature threads I have seen on the LFS forums in the last 3 years

Well done Fella :thumb:

A sad day........

When I asked myself the posing question.

If a friend today inquired that they were thinking of getting into sim racing and asked you - What would be the sim of choice ?

I don't think I could currently point that friend towards LFS in it's current state of stagnation.
:shrug:

[AndRand]

In fact, maybe it's a sustainable project, but only that, and nothing more. Stagnancy is not something you want a video game to do.

Hiring more people would really be the only way to get out of this in a significant way, but obviously that will not happen.
If I could suggest anything I would say that phisics development and graphical content (cars, graphics, tracks maybe not - it splitters online racers) should be separated so Scawen could concentrate solely on the first and the second could be treated as platform.

Nowadays settings allow treating the cars as types (ie. small front engined FWD, middle-engined RWD and so on). So if there were type specific settings limitations (ie. CoG placement or race regulations like: weight, capacity, suspesions availability) cars made by community would be not much diversed than they are today (settings range are very wide), they would just look differently (well, I think collision model uses the same mesh for body...)

There is a feature of limited setups to be introduced, especially with Scirocco. Therefore there would be no danger of rF model with bunch of completely insane designs if the type settings limits were picked sensibly. And the setting limits could be applied not only for the type server-side but to the new models by their creators also. It would require skin-like management, with possibility to approve them from lfsworld, so model not found would use default model.

Therefore Scawen wouldnt be moaned for new content (which would be created in dispersed model) and could tune physics made only by him.

[petercollins]

They should start selling add-ons like iRacing, PSN, etc.

Cash is a great motivator.

[Fuse5]

what a thread. lol.

People seriously need to find something else to do. JJ72's comparison with indie bands is nearly spot on tbh.

[blakehoo88]

Know what else would make LFS better? Scirocco.

very nice avatar,

iRacing FTW! or LFS :shrug:

[Mango Juice]

Simply allowing custom tracks, not cars, would boost the community a huge amount.

I guess smaller updates, more frequently, then a slightly bigger update a bit less often. Kind of like Jagex & RuneScape; they have a great development strategy that has been extremely successful over the past 10 years.

[Gunn]

@ GreyBull: while your first post is well written, your thread title comes across as being hostile and is likely to attract negative posts from the wider community.

@ members: If you don't have a relevant opinion to post, or you can't post it without personal insult, or you just want to vent your ten year old temper on everybody who posts on this forum, piss off.

[piggy501]

@ GreyBull: while your first post is well written, your thread title comes across as being hostile and is likely to attract negative posts from the wider community.

@ members: If you don't have a relevant opinion to post, or you can't post it without personal insult, or you just want to vent your ten year old temper on everybody who posts on this forum, piss off.

Good point with the title. Never noticed it, but now you mention it, I agree.

And the rest of your post made me lol. Straight to the point :P

[logitekg25]

i agree with everything this thread is saying for the most part.....

we should definately have more dev interactions, maybe saturday night bingo :tilt:

but serioulsy.....i think if they could promote by getting advertisements on places like facebook, google, myspace, youtube, and anywhere else possible, then some big-shot rich guy might feel motivated to fund it under a few conditions.

anyone know where i can get permission to make a facebook add for LFS, i know there is a button that says "create your own ad" but i also need permission. :shrug:

[richo]

Because it's the same old blah blah blah bullshit that's been posted on these forums by someone new every week for the last five years.

The fact that were still talking about the "same old bullshit for five years" is exactly what the OP is trying to say , do you honestly feel the LFS community as a whole should be discussing the same faults in the game and its Devs for five years?

You would think after that time we would have a whole new load of bullshit to speak about.

Even if you feel the OP is completely wrong, stupid,fanboi etc etc etc we should commend him on his passion for LFS as its pretty obvious from his post he truly cares about this sim. I may have it arse about face but this post is along way from moaning and whining.

[lizardfolk]

@ GreyBull: while your first post is well written, your thread title comes across as being hostile and is likely to attract negative posts from the wider community.

@ members: If you don't have a relevant opinion to post, or you can't post it without personal insult, or you just want to vent your ten year old temper on everybody who posts on this forum, piss off.

+1

I think most people forgot or didnt care to notice that this is Yann posting here...not some random drifter demo driver. Criticism is NOT necessarily a negative thing...it is different than meaningless whining (which is what a lot of demo drivers do). A lot of people's unconditional loyalty and love for LFS has made them blind to the current state of the game.

[Electrik Kar]

I don't think there's any reason to be too upset over the way community events are handled by the dev team currently. Most of this stuff is taken care of via the forum- the top section on the main page relates to community events- 'LFS News Headlines', for instance, which mirrors news posted over at LFS World. 'LFS in the News' is also the top sticky in the main discussion section (mostly outside promotional news). The forum is a service provided by the LFS team, and in most instances it works well. I don't think the devs can really be blamed for not imagining that this isn't enough to satisfy the various community developments.

lfs.net serves its function well by acting as the primary source of information on LFS the game, itself. Minutiae such as Bawbag winning the latest championship wouldn't be of much to interest to new players who have never heard of Bawbag to begin with. Similarly, there are probably very few examples of former/current LFS players who have gone onto success in real life racing careers and as such, again probably doesn't justify placement on the main site. As forums naturally represent the domain of community activity- probably the best place to talk about community stuff is on the forum.

Other people have maintained very good LFS related sites over the years. Master Skinnerz, LFS-Database, Team Inferno's Setup Field, various fan and related news pages, etc. These are well known sites. I think if the devs wanted to draw attention to a kind of 'best of' of the various community projects via a new site- they would have. I would agree with you here that the active portion of the LFS community doesn't get the look in it sometimes deserves by the devs, but that is for the community to deal with. Not every software company is enthusiastic about or even interested in their community making their game for them.

Your argument that the forum has become tainted by 'an heterogeneous melt of trolls, perverts and kids' has been well discussed. I won't go into it here- all I'll say is that if someone wants to start seperating 'wheat from chaff' then there's nothing really stopping them. As mentioned above, there are good examples of sites already existing catering to various LFS interests. These sites don't need dev sanctioning, they just need community input and support.

[modelmotorracing]

I agree with the general feeling of the OP that LFS needs some new direction, marketing, etc. as before long, events will probably overtake it and LFS could become an irrelevance. The closest analogy that springs to my mind is the old space warfare game Elite, which was great in its time but nowadays if you wanted to play that kind of game you'd choose Eve Online because it's all that Elite was and much more. I'm sure there are many other analogies too. However at the moment I personally don't see anything in the other sims (that I'm aware of) that blows LFS completely out of the water just yet. As an example, as a European, I find Iracing seems rather US-centric and I begrudge paying subscription money for a simulator where I don't really relate to the cars, tracks and terminology used for example. But if an iracing.eu or iracing.co.uk version came along, with a more European or international flavour, I would be more likely to give it a try.

For me LFS is still the best racing sim but if it is left for too much longer without a fresh lick of paint to generate some new interest, something else will come along which we will all end up playing instead and the collective will to improve LFS will be lost. At the moment LFS still gets occasional mentions in Sim Racing Tonight, but eventually there will be nothing new for them to report on and that will be the last that SRT viewers hear of it.

I suppose the other thing that could happen, which I have seen in other computer games where the original developers have moved on or lost interest, is that they release the code so someone else can pick it up and run with it. I do hope that LFS continues from strength to strength but do worry sometimes that it could just wither on the vine.

[Scawen]

OK, I think the relevant points have been made, so I am now going to close the thread. I don't like the thread title sitting there at the top of the forum. My sense of PR, right or wrong, tells me that is not good for people coming here for sensible discussions.

I don't share the opinion that LFS is seriously ill. It's slowly getting better all the time, and all's well from our point of view. It's a point of view many people will obviously not share, because their aim is to receive new things more quickly than we can do it.

But that is in fact their problem, not ours. That is not a lack of respect, we are developing this sim as we see fit, and our customers can try it or buy a license if they like it. And we thank them for supporting the development. Our aim is to develop this thing to a high standard and we aren't particularly bothered how long it takes. Quicker would be better, sure, but that is not a high priority compared with releasing work that we are happy with.

Once again, if our way of running a business is so poor, and you know so much more about it than we do... do it yourself... show us how to do it, don't tell us!

This forum is for discussions about LFS. Telling us how we should change our ways isn't really welcome.