PC Zone ignore us!

[tristancliffe]

Here is the online version of their article that I received today. It's made me angry.

http://www.pczone.co.uk/reviews/reviews_story.php?id=123700

We should start a FORMAL complaint, and get a visible apology printed.

[Janezki]

Obviously they (he?) visited some demo-server... :P

[Forbin]

Honestly, what does the guy expect when reviewing a demo?

[Theafro]

it doesn't make good reading, and WILL put peeps off buying the game, from what i can tell he's just jumped in for a few races with the demo, it's not a fair appraisal of what LFS is all about. the guy needs to actually PLAY THE GAME HE'S REVIEWING, not the demo of it.

the demo servers are a warzone at the moment and it isn't doing sales any good whatsoever, and without sales - NO LFS.

the demo is LFS's main selling point, it's just a free game to a lot of the demo players and it's only once they've played it a while it gets bought. (i'm generalizing here!) stuff like this won't go away if the servers don't improve me thinks

[xapexcivicx]

Apparently, that man has no idea what he's talking about Since I look and honk at everybody while passing for courtesy/safer driving. But he wouldn't know that, he doesn't have S2. =/

[inCogNito]

wasn't this already discussed in the RSC forum? I don't know if it's the same article, but it sounds like it.
There was also some feedback from the author.

[RMachucaA]

off with his head!

[(SaM)]

Plus, it's also called a review when he reviewed the S2 Alpha Demo? Didnt review mean an article about a FULL and FINISHED product?

[Mikkel Petersen]

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=216207&page=1

:shrug:

[mantis9]

Maybe they thought lets wind up all those LFS players with a dodgy review so that our crappy ads get more hits. Whoever thought those ads were a good idea needs pain :pillepall

[Blackout]

Who reads those articles anyway? But still, really stypid to review a demo of a game :really:

edit: maybe the Devs should send them free account to review, or the community could do that :)

[LawVS]

How about we invite that saddo who wrote the review to a proper server with all the best drivers there, then we'll see him change his tune and put the score up! :D

[Kryten]

You know you can add comments to that review? Click the little blue speech bubble button at the bottom. :D

[dUmAsS]

why are magazines even reviewing alpha software?

[Gimpster]

Here is a tip, write the author and explane to them how you feel in a constructive way, if they are like the one I contacted then you may find yourself writing an indepth review as a guest author.Which reminds me I need to finish that article....

[snewham]

this review is old, it was on RSC about 5 months ago. We were all disgusted then and we still are now. There's nothing that we can really do about it. Games have to deal with positive and negative press all the time, there's no use complaining about it as our positive press outways our negative press by 100 to 1.

[Bob Smith]

I think the review would have been much better if they'd started with the plus points (the second half) and then had to mention the bad racing on the demo. I suspect they mainly did it to get the attention of readers.

this review is old, it was on RSC about 5 months ago.
Err, did you possibly mean 5 weeks?

[snewham]

no, it was posted as a photo from a magasine ages ago.

[XCNuse]

You know you can add comments to that review? Click the little blue speech bubble button at the bottom. :D

because they are gay and make you wait 24 hours until they accept your registration because they are fools that do really bad reviews (in general)

lucky pczone is british.. if they were american.. they would have lawsuits so fast.... i would make sure of that

[gishuk]

its a shame because normally pczone are really good with reviews

they really dropped the ball on this one though

the reviews weird too,basically all bad points then 90% score,wtf

[Gunn]

That's what happens when you drag a dumb nerd away from his Sonic The Hedghog game and give him something to do that takes skill and patience. Live For Speed simply rejected him.

[Lex77]

All things considered, and bearing in mind that there isn't room to consider even one tenth of them here, Live For Speed is really very good indeed. Its main accomplishments are to make the car feel gratifyingly real ?and to do so in an authentic multiplayer environment. If only the servers weren't packed with equally authentic arseholes.



Can't argue with his conclusion.
It is a great game and there are a lot of arseholes on the servers (sadly, since s2, also on the registered servers).

[Scawen]

The thing is, everyone agrees with the writer Phil Wand that there are a lot of fools on the demo (mixed in there with the good guys).

The only criticism of his quite humorous article is there is absolutely no mention whatsoever that this is on the demo servers and it's all different on the licensed servers.

The problem is that most people who read the article aren't going to think about trying it, because who wants to "hang out with the arseholes" ?

The score was great but the article didn't help LFS much. In fact i watched the admin pages from a few weeks after the original publication. A total of 3 new people from the UK claimed that they had discovered LFS from a printed magazine article.

I know Phil's aim is to sell magazines, not copies of LFS. But can he have realised quite how negative it looked to anyone reading?

[LawVS]

Well, maybe since he tested the demo, he didn't have a chance to fully appreciate the immense community behind LFS which comprises of cool guys who like to race. But despite the review, can't complain with a score of 90, can you Scawen?

[Gunn]

It wouldn't have been so bad if the guy wasn't throwing a hissy fit while writing his review. He also managed to entirely overlook the organised leagues and teams which have been running for years. Our community could never have evolved thus far if we were all arseholes online.
Perhaps that was just his alpha-demo-review and he ruined his own article because he restarted it too many times? :x

[CI-Man]

Hi All

Well this is my first post but i have been watching from the sidelines for a few weeks now. Just thought i would add my thoughts on the above discussion since i brought LFS after reading the review in PC Zone. Having not long passed my real driving test i started taking an interest in racing games. It just so happens that one of these racing games caught my eye whilst flicking through the pages of this magazine.
I was a little put off by the impression i got of the people who play it but i am wise enough to understand most online games are populated by a small number off Ar** Holes. The main point that i have to make is i still purchased an S2 licence even after reading the reviewers oppinions on the people who play it. I dont know how many people were put off by the review but i had other reasons for buying it. The main reasons where the fact it got 90% which does not happen very often and the fact that the reviewer was impressed with how realistic it was. I was also impressed by the fact that it is an online game at heart, i mean what better way is there than to race against real people ?
This leads me to the closing point which as a community you need to address. Please do not let the Ar** Holes take over and more importantly please do not let these Ar** Holes give the rest of the new members a bad name. The more times a new member is banned or berated for making a mistake for the fear of them being an idiot the more you prove the reviewer right in his comments. There are a lot of genuine newbies that have put their faith and money into this game please dont let us down.

Kindest Regards Tim

[AndyC]

How the hell did he get a job with them ?? I think i'll apply to that magazine now as a writer, i'll keep you posted :nod:

[the_angry_angel]

I'll be writing an email and possibly a letter I'll deliver down to the Future Publishing buildings, by hand. This is an obviously unfair review, again. I'll also be offering to goto the future publishing offices to demonstrate licensed S2 to them.

[tristancliffe]

Hi All

Well this is my first post but i have been watching from the sidelines for a few weeks now. Just thought i would add my thoughts on the above discussion since i brought LFS after reading the review in PC Zone. Having not long passed my real driving test i started taking an interest in racing games. It just so happens that one of these racing games caught my eye whilst flicking through the pages of this magazine.
I was a little put off by the impression i got of the people who play it but i am wise enough to understand most online games are populated by a small number off Ar** Holes. The main point that i have to make is i still purchased an S2 licence even after reading the reviewers oppinions on the people who play it. I dont know how many people were put off by the review but i had other reasons for buying it. The main reasons where the fact it got 90% which does not happen very often and the fact that the reviewer was impressed with how realistic it was. I was also impressed by the fact that it is an online game at heart, i mean what better way is there than to race against real people ?
This leads me to the closing point which as a community you need to address. Please do not let the Ar** Holes take over and more importantly please do not let these Ar** Holes give the rest of the new members a bad name. The more times a new member is banned or berated for making a mistake for the fear of them being an idiot the more you prove the reviewer right in his comments. There are a lot of genuine newbies that have put their faith and money into this game please dont let us down.

Kindest Regards Tim

It's good to know that people see through bad comments in reviews, and are able to realise that a small proportion of players can, if unlucky, ruin the game experience as it must have done for the reviewer.

Welcome to LFS. Enjoy your stay. I look forward to racing with you in the coming months...

[RichardTowler]

you guys are going to love my review :nana:

[xapexcivicx]

And your avatar.........

[(SaM)]

...This is an obviously unfair review, again.

Again? The review is the same as the one we saw before back on RSC, but there might be another review i dont know of?

[tristancliffe]

Yes I think the one in the magazine (printed) is the same as the online variant. Thats why I said they 'ignore us' Despite our complaints and ill feelings, they didn't bother adding any extra info in the online version, even though it wasn't posted for several days after the printed one became available.

[the_angry_angel]

Incase anyone's interested, I've just sent off my email to the "editors".

If you wish, I can put it online, as a template for more "complaints".

[mr_x]

*is a PC Gamer subscriber* say no more :)

[Mikkel Petersen]

Incase anyone's interested, I've just sent off my email to the "editors".

If you wish, I can put it online, as a template for more "complaints".

If it's okay with you then I'd like to see it, though I won't write to them.. :)

[the_angry_angel]

Yep, no worries:
Despite the high score that the LFS Alpha received, I feel that the actual review was grossly unfair.

First of all, the S2 he reviewed is Alpha code - by no means finished; the damage, AI, physics. None of them are what you can expect to be in the final S2 release. At no stage during the review in the magazine or the website was this made clear.

I am also slightly confused by the fact that the reviewer describes 2 of the vehicles as a "Mitsubishi Starion", and a "Fiat Punto". These vehicles are not in game what-so-ever, and could lead to a misrepresentation of the sim. Infact, the only real vehicles in game are the RaceAbout, and the MRT5 - both of which are unavailable in the demo.

More importantly the reviewer was racing online, in demo servers. These demo servers are notoriously known for the bad behaviour, impersonations and so on. Had the reviewer been on a licensed server, he would've found the behaviour to be much more acceptable, and importantly, very friendly. Again, this was not made very clear in either review. It sounds as if all the online servers are the same - which they aren't.

I am not the only one who feels this way. You may wish to check out the new official forums here, in particular this topic: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=657
You may also be interested in this topic, at RSC: http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=216207&page=1 which mirrors the comments.

If you wish, I am prepared to come to the Future Publishing offices and give a member of staff temporary access to my S2 licensed account (whilst I am on site) to demonstrate the servers, other vehicles and tracks, and features (such as auto skin downloads) that are unavailable on the demo.
Theres also another bit after that about their website "demanding" you register before you can view more than 2 pages. But its not really relevant.

Edit: Incidentally, I've been a very happy customer of Future Publishing, until recently. PC and Linux Format have both started to go down, in terms of quality, along with the rest of their publications it seems.

[Mikkel Petersen]

Good mail! :nod:
I would be quite thankful if you would keep us updated with replys etc. as it's pretty interesting what they reply back to you.

Regards,

Mikkel

[mr_x]

i would say thats a fair email, nice one! just need to await a response now, hopefully it will be a positive one.. well by way of apolgy in the mag itself maybe.

PC Gamer qualiy has been getting better recently, now showing mods for games etc. i have only ever bought 1 issue of PC Zone, and noticed how 'shabby' it was and how inaccurate some of the reviews were in that issue. been a Gamer since ;)

anyway getting a bit OT so i'll leave it at that

Chris

[Seaweed]

I used to enjoy pc zones reviews because despite a game's hype they werent afraid to slate it unlike gamer, however as this review shows they now just slate every game. This review is utterly disgraceful and has done LFS no favours what so ever. The reviewer makes countless missrepresentations and mistakes and the entire thing comes accross as narrow minded and half arsed.

What kind of reviewer reviews an alpha demo version of a game tells people false information (pricing car names etc) when they havent even bothered to do any real research let alone buy the product in question. I highly doubt we'll see an apology or another review, the attitudes of the reviewer in his review are equally aparant in his stubborn forum posts.

It's their loss at the end of the day, we havent gained many players to the game we love so much, they have however lost readers.

[XCNuse]

whats wrong with these people!!!!!!!!!!

we encountered a problem. The reason reported was:

We do not allow posts in the forums from users until they have been using the site for more than seven days. Unfortunately you have been using the site for only 1 days, but we look forward to hearing from you in 5 days, 23 hours and 35 minutes.
wtf??????

[the_angry_angel]

As attached to the bottom of that mail above:

As an aside, another thing that really irritates me, is that if you want to do anything on your site, you have to ****ing register after about 2 page views. Forceful reaping of visitors details in this manner is unacceptable, in my opinion.
Their whole site needs reviewing, not just their forums, or the magazine itself.

[tristancliffe]

Anyone here 'big, muscular and a bit neanderthal'? Fancy a job? Go to PCZone and give them something to remember us by. And if they ask, we didn't put you up to it :P

[geezer45]

Did he even play LFS?

"including a damage model that contorts and deforms the cars to a degree that won't fail to make you laugh (side panels are shed, bumpers are mangled and dropped and so on)"

WTF?!!

[tristancliffe]

I think he: loaded LFS, closed his eyes, clicked the mouse a bit, ctrl-alt-del out of LFS, open eyes, make stuff up at random.

Edit: Decided that he might have not bothered with the first and fourth steps :S

[TCStelten]

I know Phil's aim is to sell magazines, not copies of LFS. But can he have realised quite how negative it looked to anyone reading?

Ofcourse he can, as he's a professional writer who knows exactly what it takes to get people attracted to reading his stories till the last letter. It doesn't really matter what he writes, as long as people enjoy reading it or are interested about his opinion on the subject he writes about, his aim is achieved :)

[Gunn]

he's a professional writerErr.... in what universe is he considered a professional writer?

[KiDCoDEa]

hehe, true, maybe he means the RSC universe, which recently started its shrinking progress, where imo, many dont understand some concepts, including the ethical one which was mentioned.
seems to me like a demo review not a full S2 review. the screenies are demo only also...

Obviously they (he?) visited some demo-server... :P

a good reason for that would be to deliver a "S2 review" to a mag while having just played the alpha DEMO which only has the cars and track featured on the screenies. the whole article is MISLEADING. Intentional or not, its irrelevant for the quality of the mag that prints such stuff.

its not even LFS S2, its a freakin alpha demo! not even our full alpha...

[Racer Y]

hi. here's a wake up call for y'all...
for the last.. i dunno how many years now, my best friend has been working on a really cool FPS controller. unfortunately because of NDA's and the fact it's about to take off, I can't really go into detail about it :)
Anyways, this guy is neck deep in all the latestest gamer magazines and I will
say this.... This particular rag is so far below the radar line - who cares what
they say one way or the other? LOL the people that probably read that
review the most are ppl that were already exposed to LFS and the writer's
parents. The others? Well if they were there, I'd bet it was by accident and
they could care less for racing sims. So whatever is written there, really don't
make a difference.

But in all honesty if you wanna blame somebody for these lamer reviews our "religion" is getting, then we ought to blame the devs (yep Scawen Eric and Victor :) )
See if they'd pimp out their stuff like give freebee licenses to these "profesional writers", then you'd see waaay better reviews. But with these
so-called waay better reviews, you'd get a bigger lot of wreckers and other assorted idiots. Like what if the reviewer actually plays The Sims and could care less for a decent racing sim? So he gives up his license to some half wit nephew that completeted all the "missions" for NFSU? When it was all said and done, we'd just have another wrecker to deal with. Or worse. like he's a burnout that really doesn't play ANY games and palms off his free license for another high ball at the bar?

You know, a couple a years ago when I had the S-1 demo, the amount of wreckers was nonexistant compared to the ones in the S-2 demo and
even the Full alpha deal. No "pc gamer wannabe" rag influenced me to get this game. I got it cause I thought it was cool :). Maybe it's cause I've been subjected to so many, but I almost NEVER let the opinions of a reviewer
determine whether or not I buy that particular game.

@ scawen (if your there dude) why do you really care anyways? you got enough cash and heck you even got a large harcore following already.
Shouldn't you, Victor and Eric be busy slipping pound notes into the wasteband of some cute little thing swirling on a pole?

I mean think about it: who really gives a rat's A** about what this guy says when he probably wrote the review only cause he lost out on the chance to rate AOE III?

Oh well, y'all take care and remember, even though you can't ALL be from Texas, I respect you anyways :)

[mkinnov8]

To be honest all this artical shows is how bad the current field of industry "writers" is, I mean PC Zone is infamous for thier bad reviews but I think its about time that someone gave PC Zone a bad review.

Im sure the devs really dont care about these kinds of comments, it will happen with all games that the public can play, any public server has the ability to be populated with arses, most of them arnt.

[Gunn]

See if they'd pimp out their stuff like give freebee licenses to these "profesional writers", then you'd see waaay better reviews. The problem is that obviously any fool with half a vocabulary can call himself a "writer".

[Racer Y]

The problem is that obviously any fool with half a vocabulary can call himself a "writer".


LOL you're 100% right!
... the sad thing is, this guy managed to convince Lord knows how many ppl
the exact same thing :)

[colcob]

The problem is that obviously any fool with half a vocabulary can call himself a "writer".

Well yeah, but giving licenses to actual print publications is a good idea. However, print publications (with the obvious exception of PC Zone) do not review alpha code, and typically will only agree to review a game once its gone gold.
So obviously Scawen wasnt about to start sending out alpha software to print mags. I expect that when S2 'goes gold' so to speak, ie the first non-alpha/beta release comes out, then would be the time for the devs to start giving the media review licenses.

[xapexcivicx]

Im with colcob. Wait it out, then once this game gets big, that guy will feel like a twit.

[colcob]

Arhg, their forum is driving me nuts. I registered, patiently waited my 24 hours, activated my account and logged in. Hit reply, typed out a long post puuting the world to rights, hit continue and got a message saying you cant actually POST on a forum for 7 DAYS!! after registration.
Dumb as shite.

[Gunn]

Arhg, their forum is driving me nuts. I registered, patiently waited my 24 hours, activated my account and logged in. Hit reply, typed out a long post puuting the world to rights, hit continue and got a message saying you cant actually POST on a forum for 7 DAYS!! after registration.
Dumb as shite.Yeah I guess they are used to people signing up just to flame them. A week gives the angry reader some time to cool off. Either that or it takes a week to load all of those offensive advertisements. A pity they didn't make their reviewer :smurf: wait a week before writing his review!

[Bob Smith]

Hehe. If you've got a problem you don't stop people from telling you about, you fix it! Some people.

[JohnMid1098]

I'm sure Phil Wand said he contacted Viktor (I think) about doing the review based on the alpha demo, and had waited as long as possible for the release of the "full" alpha, but it wasn't available before he had a chance to do the review. Given that Phil awarded LFS 90%, and that in this month's new, revamped PC Zone, LFS is one of the two games he's listed as "playing this month" in his staff profile, I think it's hugely unfair to suggest that he deliberately did some kind of hatchet job on LFS.

The points he raises are valid concerning the demo servers, and maybe he dwelled too long on that, but look at it the other way- anyone who reads the review and tries out LFS is going to be on the demo servers, and they'll base their decision to buy or not to buy, on their experiences on the demo servers. If the standards of behaviour as highlighted by the review (maybe would have been better as a preview piece) are a problem, then maybe Scawen needs to think about what mechanisms can be put in place to restrict the effects of bad behaviour on those servers.

The kind of rabid fanboyism on display in topics like this is the kind of thing that's often made the rest of the sim racing community raise the eyebrow at us LFS racers.

Last point, I don't see the problem with referring to the cars as Starions and Puntos- Phil was painting a picture, and that's what the cars basically are, in just the same way that counterstrike has AK47s and MP5s.

[Gunn]

I think it's hugely unfair to suggest that he deliberately did some kind of hatchet job on LFS.
Who suggested that he deliberately did a hatchet job? If you can't write a proper review about any game then you shouldn't be reviewing at all. The score of 90% is irrelevant, the review was incomplete, poorly researched and delivered, and full of fabricated information. An appalling display of ignorance and unprofessionalism like that is beneath respect. He has misled his own readers, not by design, but through ignorance. If I never ever read another game review by him it will be precisely 5 minutes too soon.

[frokki]

I suspect the author of the 'review' has bought some Electronic Arts' shares lately..

[Flycantbird]

lucky pczone is british.. if they were american.. they would have lawsuits so fast.... i would make sure of that

You can't sue someone for having an opinion different to yours.
Think of all the crappy movies and recordings that get great reviews everyday.

As the saying goes, any press is good press. I for one distrust critics whole heartedly, and if I read such a review, I'd probably immediatly download the game.

[the_angry_angel]

You can't sue someone for having an opinion different to yours.
That said, a woman sued a department store for tripping over a child in the way. She won. The sad thing was that the child was her own, and she put him/her/it there in the first place. Only in america... :(

It wouldn't surprise me if someone did and could sue someone for having an opinion.

Edit:
No offence was meant to any American's

[Seaweed]

Who suggested that he deliberately did a hatchet job? If you can't write a proper review about any game then you shouldn't be reviewing at all. The score of 90% is irrelevant, the review was incomplete, poorly researched and delivered, and full of fabricated information. An appalling display of ignorance and unprofessionalism like that is beneath respect. He has misled his own readers, not by design, but through ignorance. If I never ever read another game review by him it will be precisely 5 minutes too soon.

couldn't agree with you more excellent post

[tristancliffe]

Who suggested that he deliberately did a hatchet job? If you can't write a proper review about any game then you shouldn't be reviewing at all. The score of 90% is irrelevant, the review was incomplete, poorly researched and delivered, and full of fabricated information. An appalling display of ignorance and unprofessionalism like that is beneath respect. He has misled his own readers, not by design, but through ignorance. If I never ever read another game review by him it will be precisely 5 minutes too soon.

Thirded

[the_angry_angel]

Given that Phil awarded LFS 90%Granted, he gave it a nice score. But it still misrepresents LFS - lets be honest.

The points he raises are valid concerning the demo servers, and maybe he dwelled too long on thatYes, thats a fair point, but at no stage does he actually say this is on the demo servers, and nor does he state that there are alternatives.

The kind of rabid fanboyism on display in topics like this is the kind of thing that's often made the rest of the sim racing community raise the eyebrow at us LFS racers.Perhaps. You're entitled to your own opinion.

Last point, I don't see the problem with referring to the cars as Starions and Puntos- Phil was painting a picture, and that's what the cars basically are, in just the same way that counterstrike has AK47s and MP5s.Yes, but to some level Counterstrike is more valid to call them AK47's and MP5's as they are based on them. LFS's cars arent; whilst they may look like those vehicles, they dont believe that they handle like them - which is an important distinction; as this is a sim (a minor point is that I have no idea how well CS compares with real life).

And again, Phil made absolutely no emphasis that these vehicles arent actually in-game.

[Gunn]

The kind of rabid fanboyism on display in topics like this is the kind of thing that's often made the rest of the sim racing community raise the eyebrow at us LFS racersYeah I come over all fanboyish when someone refers to our community as "sons of bitches" and "authentic arseholes". I can't help it, its a character flaw. :pillepall:

Meh, I've had my say, I feel a little better now. :)

Does anyone have any chips? I'm a bit peckish after today's ranting.

[Seaweed]

*hands gunn some chips*

[the_angry_angel]

I wish I had some chips :(

[tristancliffe]

*Eats chips within sight of The*

[KiDCoDEa]

You can't sue someone for having an opinion different to yours.
Think of all the crappy movies and recordings that get great reviews everyday.


true, but thats not whats in question here.
if you review latest "madonna album", trash it in public media, yet always adress it in the review (AND TITLE) as "britney's latest", there is sue material or at least a very good reason to be pissed about.
its not about opinion its about honesty and correct behaviour.
any real movie critic will say to you that even when they trash films, they SEE THEM. from beginning to end. and its painful sometimes...
they dont post reviews of something they havent seen.
just like a reporter, doesnt write a on-location report for a newspaper without actually having been there. the ones that were caught were instantly removed from media arena and went on to pursue other careers, if allowed...

[CI-Man]

the people that probably read that review the most are ppl that were already exposed to LFS and the writer's parents. The others? Well if they were there, I'd bet it was by accident and they could care less for racing sims. So whatever is written there, really don't make a difference.

Hi Racer Y

I guess by this remark you mean me ? Well i was one of the guys who read the review and was attracted to LFS by it, infact so much so not only did i buy S2 i brought a wheel to play it with. What reading the magazine and this review has to do with Phil Wand's (the writers) parents i dont know. What could you possibly be implying ? Comments like this just go to proving the writer right in his asumptions. We should be doing more to dismiss the fact that we are all Ar** Holes rather than helping prove it. Just for the record i was not "there by accident" and yes i am interested in racing sims.

Kindest Regards Tim

[frokki]

I'd accept an apologize from PC Zone somewhere in the magazine. Like "sorry our reviewer made a mistake, he reviewed a demo instead of S2."

But they're not gonna do it because they don't care. I think there's only 1 readable gaming magazine. All the finns will recognize it ;)

[the_angry_angel]

*Eats chips within sight of The*
evul bastard :p

[tristancliffe]

tee hee :D

[Scawen]

See if they'd pimp out their stuff like give freebee licenses to these "profesional writers", then you'd see waaay better reviews.Yeah we always do that for proper reviewers. In this case we heard they had just written the LFS review, about the day after S2 Alpha full version came out, so we offered licenses at that point. They just didn't take us up on the offer, although there was plenty of time to make an adjustment to the article if needed. But i guess they were busy with other things, having just completed this review.

@ scawen (if your there dude) why do you really care anyways? you got enough cash and heck you even got a large harcore following already.Well it's not like i'm really cut up about it or anything... I simply must raise an objection when "the people who play LFS" are referred to as "arseholes", because it's insulting and wrong. It would be fine to say that if the statement was qualified by saying that this was only on the demo, and the situation is different on the licensed servers. That's my only strong negative point about the article.

Of course i don't mind about hearing valid criticisms - many could be made about various things that need improvement - but none really were in this case other than saying (at length) that this is a game played by people with no manners.

[Mr. Jones]

I have to admit that I have been totally turned off by the "demo" crowd myself.
They really are a bunch of Arseholes. It does give a bad impression. I also hear of similar problems on servers even when you do purchase a license (hence the reason for me not purchasing S2 yet). He did seem to go overboard a tad, but I have had similar experiences, too many times. If someone wants to test LFS, this is what they get. It does not leave a good impression for people new to LFS, like myself. Anti-semetic names, consistent crashers, general disrepect. It is not my idea of a good time. The license holders here will just tell me to buy the game. Well, as I stated before I have heard from many that this behaviour is also commonly present on the S2 servers as well. I believe this is a quality product, but it is difficult to enjoy if you are berated and crashed into and kicked from servers before you even hand over your money. I think some sort of control should be implemented on the demo servers. Since you are charging money for S2, even if it is an alpha, shouldn't that count as a full game? I am just giving you my opinion, I hope you repect it and see it as another view from an "outsider".

[Flycantbird]

true, but thats not whats in question here.
if you review latest "madonna album", trash it in public media, yet always adress it in the review (AND TITLE) as "britney's latest", there is sue material or at least a very good reason to be pissed about.
.

I think Madonna would be happy to get any press at this point.
But as for this particular review, it is not something one could sue over, at least not sue over and win. That's all I meant to say.

Women tripping over children not-withstanding.
( no pun intended )

[Gunn]

I have to admit that I have been totally turned off by the "demo" crowd myself.
They really are a bunch of Arseholes. It does give a bad impression. I also hear of similar problems on servers even when you do purchase a license (hence the reason for me not purchasing S2 yet). He did seem to go overboard a tad, but I have had similar experiences, too many times. If someone wants to test LFS, this is what they get. It does not leave a good impression for people new to LFS, like myself. Anti-semetic names, consistent crashers, general disrepect. It is not my idea of a good time. The license holders here will just tell me to buy the game. Well, as I stated before I have heard from many that this behaviour is also commonly present on the S2 servers as well. I believe this is a quality product, but it is difficult to enjoy if you are berated and crashed into and kicked from servers before you even hand over your money. I think some sort of control should be implemented on the demo servers. Since you are charging money for S2, even if it is an alpha, shouldn't that count as a full game? I am just giving you my opinion, I hope you repect it and see it as another view from an "outsider".
It's been made clear from the beginning that LFS will be released in stages, that these stages are part of a greater evolution for the sim and if you decide to pay for any or all of the sim that you understand what you are getting for your money. So nobody owns the full product yet.

I do not accept that the demo community (if we should even call it that since it is ever changing) should be stereotyped as wreckers or fools or as not being serious or good racers. If you go and play any first person shooting game (CS for example) you will be inundated with cheating, spamming, racism, all manner of childish insults, lag, disruptive players and it is really unavoidable on a public server. Any multiplayer game where the player has control over the "destiny" of others will be exploited by immature brats who think that everyone else on the Net is also an immature brat.

Indeed you will always find some bad apples wherever you go, but S2 licensed racers on the whole are here to race. Our community is growing so fast now that it is very easy to find a group of like-minded individuals who will cheerfully share a private server with you if you don't have the confidence in public racing.
It's not a perfect world, bad experiences in the demo may cause some people to abort the decision to get license but is any game different than this? I'm not sure what people expect the devs to do but as far as I can tell there's not a lot that can be done by them without ruining the concept of LFS.

This community is strong and for the most part we are all pulling in the same direction. If you want some serious racing join a team or a league rather than a public server. The licensed community represents people who have gone that extra step and decided to get involved in LFS properly, not just play a demo. Does this put us above an unlicensed racer? No. Does it make one man better than the next man? No. What it does do is create an environment where organised and seriously competitive clean racing is propagated. There are leagues and race series being held around the globe with great success. Many friendships have been fostered and you will be pressed to find a community that is so enthusiastic about the future of its chosen game or sim.

I have always said that the number of true race sims can be counted on one hand. LFS is one of those fingers. If you enjoy motorsport and racing and can see yourself making new friends and having a fun but competitive experience then come on over and join us. There's certain to be a place in our community for you. LFS is the real thing. Wreckers and brats wouldn't enjoy it anyway. ;)

[Mr. Jones]

I appreciate the response. I do realize the LFS commnity is a close knit group, almost too close at times. I also realize that you will get bottom of the barrel racers (can't really call them racers), when you race on the demo servers. Maybe there is another way? Maybe more conventional? Maybe You don't have public servers for demo? It looks like it may be a disservice to the game itself? I know LFS is all about the MP, but the way it is set up now, who does it benefit? It did not benefit me. It does not benefit many others who are serious about a race sim as well. You can bring up shooter game demos as reference, of course there will be idiots on their demos. There will be idiots on any MP demo server, regardless of the gendre. That's the point. Why offer it? It does no good. In this case you happened to have a reviewer on a demo server. His opinion is shared by many who didn't choose to purchase an S2 license. Your community is strong, it is obvious in your reply. But it is difficult to see past the crap that is called Demo Server, especially for new racers. Maybe this review is a wake up call?

[Fordman]

Hense the warning when you click Multi Player when you select Demo? ( See Below )

Obviously didn't read it ? And if he failed to read this little warning :really: then what else did he fail on ?

I am not going to go through quoting the Warning, as you can see if for you self. Its all there in hmm, Grey, White and bold YELLOW WARNING :)

Nuff Said

Fordie

[Barroso]

"need To Bleed" :(

[ayrton senna 87]

"need to bleed"? reviewer - "Need to read"

its only demo m8

[Racer Y]

Hi Racer Y

I guess by this remark you mean me ? Well i was one of the guys who read the review and was attracted to LFS by it, infact so much so not only did i buy S2 i brought a wheel to play it with. What reading the magazine and this review has to do with Phil Wand's (the writers) parents i dont know. What could you possibly be implying ? Comments like this just go to proving the writer right in his asumptions. We should be doing more to dismiss the fact that we are all Ar** Holes rather than helping prove it. Just for the record i was not "there by accident" and yes i am interested in racing sims.

Kindest Regards Tim

OK then it's YOU, people already exposed to LFS and his parents.... better now?

Oh and welcome to LFS. :)

Oh and the "parent" bit? uh you know.... kinda
like, "That Movie was soo bad, the only people that seen it was the director's parents"....
I was celebrating my birthday and was a little trashed when I tried to make my point.
LOL you gotta point though. He could be an abandoned orphan and that could be his problem :)

[Boris Lozac]

I don't know guys... Sure there are wreckers.. BUT for the most time, it is very very well spent time on the net! We have our public demo server in my country, and mostly we race there.. There are also people from another countries that come, and it is very good racing.. but sure there are idiots, who can ruin your good time.. Also, when i go to some foreign server, there is also good races.. Mostly people are ready to help you out.. and it is almost always a friendly atmosphere.. It is important to say "sorry" when it's your falt, put a smiley here and there, when something is funny, like someone flipping on the roof, or say "good race" when it realy is.. and so on.. Whit that attitude it is always a good time..

[Misko]

Well Boris, we all know that but people totaly new to LFS don't. Theres no easy and 'official' way for them to learn those guidances, like it is easy to skip the warning and join any demo server. I hope Vykos put some links and guides in together with those 300'000 (three hundred thousand noobs are coming! run for your lives! ;) ) LFS demos on new Fujutsu Siemens PC's.

It seems that it is our job to spread the spirit of LFS racing to new people, and we would have to spend bit more time on demo servers to do that. Everybody who wants, take your time to just be there, be yourself, race well like you do and talk and help the others like you always do. I'm doing that quite often because many friends are still racing only in demo, and if people with more experience are there, all that mayhem that you might think is there is not at all that bad as it seems from outside. There are a couple of servers with good and friendly atmosphere for most of the time, but still, admins cannot be present there throughout the day. We need more people. :) So whenever you have nothing better to do, take your time and sink into the wilderness. ;) Make a better image for LFS.

Its a tedious job, I hate policing the servers arguing with childish people but someone's gotta do it sometimes. :) But the reward for seeing someone new liking what he sees and not being put off by idiots, which would happen otherwise, and joining us in the whole fun LFS is, is well worth it I think.

[Huru-aito]

Maybe You don't have public servers for demo? It looks like it may be a disservice to the game itself? I know LFS is all about the MP...

...Why offer it? It does no good.

Interesting theory. Just think about it for a second, where would you go racing if there wouldn't be public servers? Set up a private server of your own and try and get some of your friends to race with you? That would be fine for everyone IF they had friends interested in racing sims.

Having public servers is the key point to LFS (and the demo) because it gives you the possibility to find and race people on the same skill level (or at least the same speed) as you. If there would be no public servers then you'd be pretty much racing against your friends until you beat them race after race and they quit - you ending up having nobody to race against.

Unfortunately there will be those who don't either know how to race properly or they just don't feel like it. Those aren't just kids, being able to wreck races anonymously is something that even older people enjoy when they feel like letting off some steam. It's like this with every game (and especially the demos), just like you said. This is something I wish everyone would realize, aswell as the following:

Buying a LFS license gives you an identity, albeit a string of characters. You can always be recognized, and you can lose your reputation. If a wrecker does buy a license and keeps wrecking races he'll soon be banned from the servers / kept an eye on. And there's no way around this other than registering again and buying a new license.

[Fordman]

Not being funny or anything, but this thread still going on. I think I sumed it all up on my last post. There is very visable warning about demo servers, and how this is not controlled.

Obviously the reviewer didnt read this, and has compared the demo racers ( no offence to 90% of them ) to us that has paid for S2, and has build up a rapport.

Now me personally, I have been racing almost 3yrs with lfs ( Reg Sep 2002 ) to be called your average arsehole does make me mad, but to be honest, what on earth is it going to do complaining here?

Come on Guys, we are better than this. Lets move on and go forward. Prove that we are not your average arseholes and show the mag what is the best Simulation available to date?

How do we move on and go forward, well ignore there crap reviews and comments. tbh, and imho, the average person that reviews these games, hasn't never looked into it properly ( good example here I feel )

We can complain here until we are blue in the face, but tbh, sh*t happens. These sort of reviews will still happen.

We have voiced our opinions and said whats needed. Lets leve PC Zone to read the above and mull over what they attempted to do, but never succedded :) Give LFS and Proper review :)

Fordie

[Gunn]

He did read the warning in the demo, he said so in his review. Fordman is right though, I think we have exhausted this topic.

[Racer Y]

Uhhh... I'd like to exrend the post just a bit more Fordman :)

I'm kinda going off topic with this, but it is related and I think it ought to be addressed............ UH in a way, we might actually be turning into "arses".

Used to be when somebody got a license and posted their first post on the forums, they were whole heartedly welcomed by the community. Now,
when someone gets their license, it's like," So? Do you want a cookie?"

Now as far as the wreckers in demoland goes, we have no real control over that but it seems we as a community have gotten more callous with the way we treat the new people. I mean it's still friendly and all, but we lost something.

Like the guy who posted above... C-I man. He noted he got the license after reading the review... AFTER reading the review. Heck he went out and even got a wheel to play the game!.....I said, "welcome to LFS", but it was jumbled in the middle of my response to him. It might have looked sarcastic instead of genuine.

I dunno, it's hard to explain what I'm trying to type here, but hopefully, y'all
will understand anyways.... I think the community could use a little tweaking.

Yeah, I talked to that reviewer's parents, they thought so too :)

[CI-Man]

Hi Racer Y, All

Thank you for your response Racer Y i can see it was a mis-understanding on my part, i guess this was due to the different sayings our countries have for things.
It suprised me that only one or two people picked up on my post and the fact that i actually went out and brought the game after reading the review. This seemed to get lost in all the negative or bad feelings that most members are experiencing.
Obviously i can understand why people are angry at being called Ar** Holes, i would be myself. However the way i see it is that the game did get 90%, as for the other childish comments i am adult enough to realise every online game has a small proportion of Ar** Holes spoiling things. I am sure there are a lot of other people like me that read the review and have gone out and brought not only the game but a wheel too because they can see its awsome potential.
If anything is going to put new members off joining its going to be the fact that this matter will not be allowed to die. The fact that people keep dredging up this one bit of negative press and refusing to accept it and move on. The fact that people still find it hard to accept any one who makes mistakes without fear of them being a wrecker. In the end the only winners will be the wreckers who like parrasites will move on to the next first person shooter leaving the shattered corpse of LFS behind before its fully got off the ground.

Kindest Regards Tim

[Scawen]

I just want to mention : I believe that PC Zone do recognise this possible miscommunication, and will be publishing an interview (Q&A) with us, in one of their editions coming soon. They have to cut down the text we wrote for them, to fit it into the space available, but i hope it sets the record straight a bit.

Thanks CI-Man for not being put off by the text of the article, though my guess is that a lot of people would be put off, simply because there is no mention that all that text was purely about the demo. It was good to hear from your point of view anyway.

My first post on this thread was intended to simply point out both sides of the argument, trying to avoid a full repeat of the RSC thread, but it didn't really work out! :D

Anyway, Phil Wand shouldn't be surprised by the negative response from the LFS community. When you call hundreds of people a bunch of arseholes, or words to that effect, then you must expect some sort of negative respose from them, no matter what high score is attached to the game. We are thankful for the high score of 90%. :)

[ScHiZ]

PC format has S2 on it's cover disc :)

[ruckus37]

Yea, they were commenting on rfactor as if the demo was released, assuming that the multiplayer test was a demo.

[Silly]

Though they weren't really the first ones to make that mistake. Testing the S2 alpha demo as S2 full on the other hand, that's pretty impressively lousy! I mean, gaming journalists should be somewhat accustomed to the concepts of "demo" versus "full game" and "you have to pay/enter cd key or whatever for the full game you know". :D

And calling the LFS community [whatever it was he said], that's borderline dangerously foolish. ;)

Nice to hear about the interview. :up:

[dUmAsS]

scawen > mabey the download page for s2 alpha could have (in big font) that its pre released, unfinished, etc?

that should stop the confusion :)

[djellison]

Guys - he said he liked the title, that it was fantastic. It doesnt matter if it was a pre-alpha release...he liked it. He'll like it when it's a beta, he'l like it when it's a release candidate, he'll like the final release. The version number doesnt matter one iota.

What he didnt like was the behaviour on the demo servers. Who would - it's disgusting. But that wont change with a proper release version. It'll stay the same.

The only mistake the reviewer made was not mentioning that he was using the demo servers.

Doug

[Gunn]

I might add that pretty much everyone was using demo servers at that time.

Anyway, we certainly have covered everything here so I'm putting this one to bed. There's no point flogging a dead horse, which is all we are doing now....

An interesting discussion, thank you everybody :Handshake