Faster drivers are not always in the right..."noob" has had enough!!!

[voight kampff]

Please do not see this post as me starting an argument...i am an adult and want to know how to get the best out of this amazing game.

I love racing games and am pretty good at them, but new to lfs online. I like to play sim games on hard difficulty. I enjoy racing fair and hate it when people ram or drive wrong way or try to spoil race for people. Lfs seems to be full of serious racers so it is defo the place for me.

I am however new to lfs and hence not as fast as most people online. This means that when I join an online game it takes me a while to get to grips with the car, setup, track, layout, rules of server, etc. It is a hard game and good/experienced drivers must have been new at one point?

All my problems seem to come from blue flag issues… L

Here are some of the blue flag rules from lfs website:

“In this case you are hindering his progress and must allow him to pass you as soon as it is safe to do so (you can't be expected to yield while negotiating a chicane or high speed corner) Hold your line don't fight the other car, do not make any sudden movements left or right, ease off slightly and let him pass. He is a lap ahead of you and you are not fighting him for position. You must not hold him up.”

This does say that sometimes the slower driver cannot be expected to yield and it is can be unsafe in some cases. Despite knowing and carefully following the above rule, here is my typical online experience at the moment….

I start the game and have (at most) a few laps, watching my mirrors, getting out of peoples way if i am blue flagged, etc. But sooner or later somebody going much quicker than me comes flying up behind on a fast corner or a really slow bit. They seem to expect me to just jump out of the way and in many cases I have been slammed up the back by the faster car when I am on the racing line and I have not had time or it is not safe to yield.

Many times I have been turning into a corner and the faster driver has tried to dive down the inside…of course there is a crash. The faster driver needed to simply wait until the corner was over and go past at the next safe point.

Many faster drivers seem to commonly go full racing speed on the racing line into the slower car and blame it on them. The faster driver needs to find a safe place to overtake and do it carefully and this may slow them down.

I know having slower cars on the track is annoying but we were all new at some point so it is all part of picking up the game and getting into it.

Following one of these blue flag issues the problem is that abuse then starts being directed at me. “Ban that idiot” “read the blue flag rules”, etc. etc. Often followed by a vote to kick/ban….of course other players seem to vote yes with no knowledge of what actually happened. As I am new and nobody knows me I often get grief from multiple people then leave due to the abuse or get booted from the room.

I have pitted and tried to explain the above but often made matters worse. Some faster drivers seem convinced that if you slowed them in any way or if there was any contact on or off the racing line at any speed then it must be the fault of the slower “noob”. I know if often is the fault of the “noob” but in many cases with me recently it isn’t.

I am not rubbish at racing games, just new to this one and the rude way that some experienced drivers treat a slower car is spoiling the whole experience.

Please try to think of it from a considerate but slower new drivers point of view and think how annoyed you would be if you carefully let loads of blue flag faster cars though with lots of consideration then one fast car make a mess of trying to get past you on a corner and gets you banned/kicked or simply gives you loads of abuse.

I am confused and thinking of finding another game online with friendly drivers.

Any ideas?

[Forbin]

Are you joining mid-race? That could be what others are referring to. In this case, you didn't start the race the same time as them so technically you're just practicing, not racing, and if you're really that much slower than the fast guys, you're better off staying in the pits until the race restarts.

If you are waiting for the restart, then it's just a case of faster drivers being disrespectful. I used to be one of those guys to some extent, till I started racing in real life. Now it's second nature to me to back off till it's safe to pass. I'd say many if not most sim racers do not have this mentality. In some cases it's somewhat understandable, such as a driver attempting to catch up to someone. The differences in time per lap between drivers can be miniscule, and a 1 or 2 second delay can mean they never catch up.

[voight kampff]

Thanks for the polite reply. I have sometimes joined mid race, but when I race often people join in part way through. The server can turn off mid race join if they want to...i assumed if it was allowed on that server then there would be no problem?

Any servers for newer racers that are not total crap but a bit slower? I dont want to race AI or 1 person on a crappy server.

Cheers...

:)

[AndRand]

“In this case you are hindering his progress and must allow him to pass you as soon as it is safe to do so (you can't be expected to yield while negotiating a chicane or high speed corner) Hold your line don't fight the other car, do not make any sudden movements left or right, ease off slightly and let him pass. He is a lap ahead of you and you are not fighting him for position. You must not hold him up.”

Many times I have been turning into a corner and the faster driver has tried to dive down the inside…of course there is a crash. The faster driver needed to simply wait until the corner was over and go past at the next safe point.
Fail.
You were blueflagged and he was so close he could make overtaking attempt - it was you to notice he is going inside.

Many faster drivers seem to commonly go full racing speed on the racing line into the slower car and blame it on them. The faster driver needs to find a safe place to overtake and do it carefully and this may slow them down.
Usually I dont have problems overtaking unless someone blocks on purpose so I dont understand those faster than me claiming right to the racing line, on straights especially.

[JazzOn]

I am confused and thinking of finding another game online with friendly drivers.

Any ideas?

Don't give up just yet. There is an quite major patch on the way (sooner or later) with an reworked and advanced tiremodelling and might bring some more mature drivers back, i guess. Some people ATM really are very self focused and act like they are racin AI's in Race Driver:Grid (or whatever)

Maybe you can join a league and practise these tracks they run.

[danthebangerboy]

Fail.
You were blueflagged and he was so close he could make overtaking attempt - it was you to notice he is going inside.


But not really though, if it was mid corner then as the quoted lfs guide states, you can't be expected to yield while negotiating a chicane or high speed corner, so if a faster driver comes hanking up behind you mid corner and decides to try and squeeze up the inside when there isnt really enough room then its his problem, just because he is 'close enough' to make an attempt at passing dosn't mean it is by any means safe or sensible to do so, he should wait until the corner is over so he can overtake safely, a slower car holding its line during a corner is NOT blocking, as holding your line is also mentioned in the quoted text by the OP, hold your line don't fight the other car, do not make any sudden movements left or right, so shooting off the racing line to give a quicker car room during a corner would be classed as a sudden movement i would say. :D

[AndroidXP]

Long story short, you're right, they're wrong (most likely).

If this situation happens on a regular basis it might be a good idea to watch the replays and see how it looked from their perspective, just in case you're really doing something strange that isn't obvious from your own view. But for the most part the problem is down this to being the internet, granting relative anonymity, which makes some older and lots of younger people behave for the worse in ways they'd never do in real life.

Regarding blue flags, many people seem to think that a blue-flagged backmarker should immediately go to pits or hurl their car into the gravel trap as soon as someone faster approaches from behind, but this is definitely not the case for anyone who has common sense. I can partially understand that sentiment if someone joined mid-race (they have no business on the track, seriously - if someone can't drive without causing interference after mid-race joining then they deserve what they get), but normal backmarkers that were in the race from the beginning (or joined shortly after the start) shouldn't be treated this harshly. Another problem from my experience is that the race craft of a lot of people simply sucks. They might be fast hotlappers, but are generally unable to deal with others being on the track, too.

If the replays say you're innocent then I guess you'll just have to keep at it (otherwise change your driving style to fix the problem). With time you'll find servers that have better behaving drivers or you simply become faster yourself, so that being blue-flagged isn't such a common scenario anymore.

[voight kampff]

I expected a lot of grief for this post and I guess it has started...

"fail" not sure what you mean

You have to have track position to over take even if you are a faster car and the car in front has had a blue flag. You cannot simply be faster, dive down the inside and expect a blue flag car not to turn in.

This is exactly the point. Blue flag does not mean that you have to put it in the gravel to avoid all other drivers and you are not allowed to turn in.

If the faster driver had track position and I turned in and there was a crash then you would be right, but I am talking about a faster driver getting it wrong and going for an overtake where it is not safe and then blaming it on the "noob"

Faster car has to pick his way past blue flagged car carefully, not smash his way through at all costs on the first corner and then blame the other guy!!!

I race in the real world and I guess that is why I too think differently when it comes to blue flags.

A lot of guys on LFS seem to think that if they have to slow down at all or move off racing line at all then the slower blue flagged car has broken the rules. Not the case.

<flame suit on>

...ducking for cover...go easy on me, i love the game.

[danthebangerboy]

Fail = Overused internet buzzword for you have made a mistake or are in the wrong, used all the time in any context, weather it really fits the situation or not :razz:

[voight kampff]

mostly supportive...thanks.

How do i check replays from different angles and other driver point of view?

thanks

:)

[danthebangerboy]

Press the 'tab' key, it switches from your car to other cars, if its a massive grid, press the 'home' key to go back to your car, the 'v' key changes from rear chase, incar, top, and tv camera style views.

[anbiddulph]

mostly supportive...thanks.

How do i check replays from different angles and other driver point of view?

thanks

:)
to change view press v, to change car focous press tab (or shift+tab, they go in different directions up and down the pack, and use home to go straight back to your car) and if you want a custom camera point then press shift+U.

[Thunderhead]

mostly supportive...thanks.

How do i check replays from different angles and other driver point of view?

thanks

:)
either;
SHIFT + U,
tab
V
(better expained in posts above)
And DO turn on the automatic replay saving in options despite it being not recommended- it will save you alot of trouble.

Just periodically remeber to delete the old ones.:thumbsup:

[AndroidXP]

You can also click on the car triangle on the minimap to jump to that car, as well as on the name in the name list (lower right corner).

[danthebangerboy]

You can also click on the car triangle on the minimap to jump to that car, as well as on the name in the name list (lower right corner).

Oh yeah, i forgot that you can do that *runs away*

[voight kampff]

thank you...thank you...thank you.

I have calmed down a bit now.

When I first posted I just expected a load of grief, but it seems I may not be talking complete rubbish.

I feel better now

:)

[AndRand]

I expected a lot of grief for this post and I guess it has started...

"fail" not sure what you mean

You have to have track position to over take even if you are a faster car and the car in front has had a blue flag. You cannot simply be faster, dive down the inside and expect a blue flag car not to turn in.
It is completely legitimate to "dive in" as soon as the car is overlapped. In touring cars - just a bit, in most racing rules at least half the car. I understood that had been the situation, I try to respect that distance that enables faster car to overtake. I was not referring to situation midcorner, frankly any bump from the apex out of the corner is IMO the fault of the one overtaking.

[voight kampff]

That is what i meant by "track position". We basically agree on when it is ok to overtake. The problem is this...

I am talking about an insane move by a faster driver on a blue flagged car in an attempt to lose no time when coming across a back marker.

e.g.
When you dont have "half a car" and you still go for it, it goes wrong and you blame the slow guy.

It happens in most races to me at the moment...the fast guy is often to blame but I get the grief for it.

Shame.

[AndRand]

This is in overtaking situation, when blueflagged I try to avoid such situations just when I see in mirror someone in-race close enough to take ovrertaking attempt :shrug:

btw. I use virtual mirror (in view settings - mirror mode) it is always visible, btw2. it could have adjustable width (not FOV) :scratchch

[voight kampff]

thanks for tip about mirror will try it.

[-Willi-]

It also really depends on the server/race length/drivers how blue flags and racing etiquette are handled.
On some of the busy servers with short sprint races (e.g. FoX junkies) you are expected to clear the way on blue flag. (and I its ok for me)
My experience: short races with many ppl -> more aggressive racers, who expect everyone to clear track if they come from behind ...

Try some servers with racelength > 5 minutes - there I get the most fun in LFS. And with longer races most people start to think(and slow down) before they just crash the blue flagged car in front.

[audimasta]

Just a heads up to you Mr. voight kampff, the Dead Men Racing server is a nice place for some clean racing (if you prefer smaller grids than the ones on IHR). Good luck :)

[modelmotorracing]

A point worth mentioning in relation to IHR multi class racing, where I have recently started working up the ranks myself, is that as I have discovered, the speed differential between my XFG and the leader's FZR is so great that on fast track sections you don't even get the blue flag before the guy is passing you. Yes you can keep an occasional eye on the minimap to see where the leaders are but not if you are in your own battle with other XFGs. But it mostly seems that the fastest cars are actually aware that their arrival amongst the back markers may be a bit of a surprise and do choose their moments carefully.

[Riel]

I know the problem, and TS, you are right though. Fast drivers need to behave. But this also needs to be learned :D

I want to take this opportunity to join the leagues on www.absolute-beginners.nl.

We race with really fast drivers, but also slow ones. Blue flag behaviour is no.1 issue at our server. Slow drivers need to learn from fast ones.
Because we are a 'beginners' server, fast drivers KNOW that there are "noobs" driving, and take it into account. We state that if you, as a fast drivers, do not want this, you should not race with us.

Ofcourse the blue flag rules still apply at our server, but we expect the fast ones to give special care. And, we are getting more and more fast drivers, so it actually works. It's just another state of mind :)

Read the chronicles in my sig to get an idea of our community.

Greets!

[obsolum]

Just a heads up to you Mr. voight kampff, the Dead Men Racing server is a nice place for some clean racing (if you prefer smaller grids than the ones on IHR). Good luck :)
How nice of you, I was just about to say the same thing :smileypul You don't have to be fast and you can be sure that everyone there will treat you with respect and help you when asked, as long as you're not a numptie, which I don't believe voight is ;)

Server is most busy between 7pm and 10pm GMT. This week's combo might not be for the inexperienced driver, though. FZ5 @ SO Long :smileypul

[menantoll]

Just a heads up to you Mr. voight kampff, the Dead Men Racing server is a nice place for some clean racing (if you prefer smaller grids than the ones on IHR). Good luck :)

I gotta agree with this even if it does take you away from our server. Generally if you join a server with 10 or less drivers it is a much friendlier and cleaner environment to race in. You'll also get more chance to talk to people, get set ups, advice etc.

[durrri]

i agree completely about the faster arrogant drivers who think the racing line is simply "theirs"

i was trying to find a definition of "sufficient overlap", as I thought I had read it in the LFS rules.. I remember it something like:
"The front wheels of the overtaking car are at least at the level of the rear wheels of the overtaken car"
..but I can't find it at the moment.

can we please get this clear as well?

[durrri]

BTW, right form the rules:

Lapping

L-1: It is a fundamental rule of motorsport and sim racing that when a driver receives a blue flag, this is to let him know that a faster car is about to lap him.
L-2: The leading driver that is lapping the slower car must treat the situation as though he's overtaking a normal competitor - and not assume the lapped driver should leap out of the way at all costs.
L-3: The driver that is being lapped should let the lead driver past and/or not resist to be overtaken if the lead driver has sufficient overlap. Only move out of the way for the lead driver when you believe it is safe to do so. For example, not on the apex of a corner.


which is pretty clear to me.
the only grey area (and thus a moment for the implementation of common sense and "morality", so to say) is the part: "Only move out of the way for the lead driver when you believe it is safe to do so."

[Leprekaun]

Your approach is right. Its always preferable to wait until there is a safe point to let the other guy through.

If you don't mind me saying though, you mentioned that you take the racing line when entering a corner when another faster driver is behind you. I'm not justifying him ramming you but about the dive bit. Whenever I'm in a position like that and I can see the other driver in my mirrors, I make sure to take a wide line, leaving the inside open. Although, I know you mentioned that you already started turning but what I'm saying is instead of thinking to yourself to take the proper line, it would be better to just take a wider line to eliminate the possibility of a misunderstanding between you and the other driver and if he doesn't pass you at that corner, by the time you're at the exit he would have carried greater speed than you round the corner and can overtake you easily.

Something that I must say and I know many may view it as being elitist is speed. Its all well and good if the difference between the slower and faster drivers is between 1.5-2.0 seconds a lap but I think anything more than that can make it quite hazardous so I'm not trying to be one of those guys "go practice offline you f noob!" but I would considerate it important to do it if the difference in speed is big. Alternatively, there are beginner/amateur leagues where you can race alongside drivers with similair experience and speed.

One thing that I think many LFS drivers need to sort out are their attitudes. I feel that the general caliber of drivers has dramatically dropped so there seems to be loss of respect and civility. This is one of the main reasons why I rarely race online and just stick to leagues because if you have a tough admin running it, none of this crap would happen and if it did, it would be met with penalisation.

[mdmx]

Basically i agree with you, the same problem exists in multi-class (different car classes mixed in race) servers even if all the drivers are fast.

I think a 'semi-divebombing' against blue flagger is totally ok..? I mean the situation when you are right at his bottom, but without overlap.. As long as you really are fast enough, and can make the corner tight enough to leave room for him as well. Choose inner line early enough way before braking point to show him you are going for it. In a slower car in that situation i would brake a bit earlier and let faster car pass before turning in. Don't fight it, not even a one bit.

If you are joining mid-race, and are slower than others, then you should be very very careful. Watch the map, and if you think there is a change he will catch you before the next corner/chicane exits, just slow down dramatically (or even stop) and let the pack pass you before the corner. Just make sure you do it on right side the track, opposite side to driving line. :)

The stuff u mentioned, when someones tries to drive thru you in the middle of the corner, that's BS. The faster driver in that case is very stupid, like he doesn't want to pass you at all, just wants to show you you are in his way. Stupid.. If you encounter slower car in the middle of the corner, you have to go around, not thru.. :) You should however take it easy and leave him room to go around, if it's possible. Especially when you are not fighting for position yourself, just take it easy and leave the room inside, if possible.

You should go to some well administrated server, (IHR) Ironhorse Racing (just sort the server list by driver count and it's the first one;)) is very popular ATM, and administration seems good to me. Earlier the same sheep-kickban-voting problem was there, but it seems it's gone now since kickban voting is not allowed when there is admin online. And there is always admin online. :)

And if you are much slower, like several secs per lap, it's not that bad thing to let the way faster driver pass without defensive moves even without blue-flag. After i learned to do that, and tried to follow them instead of blocking them, my laptimes started to improve quite fast. :) You know, fighting for positions is fun but if it's obvious you are very much slower then it just might be much more entertaining and useful to try to follow instead of trying to desperately block.

Have fun..

[menantoll]

And if you are much slower, like several secs per lap, it's not that bad thing to let the way faster driver pass without defensive moves even without blue-flag. After i learned to do that, and tried to follow them instead of blocking them, my laptimes started to improve quite fast. :) You know, fighting for positions is fun but if it's obvious you are very much slower then it just might be much more entertaining and useful to try to follow instead of trying to desperately block.

Have fun..

Totally agree with that last paragraph. You can learn much more following a faster driver than you can learn by trying to defend against them. It's also fustrating as hell when a slower car aggresively defends and you end up having to hit the brakes hard to not hit them.

I had this the other night. Now I don't claim to be fast and this particular race (SO Long) I was about 2 seconds off the pace of the lead cars and the guy aggresively blocking me was 2 seconds off my pace (taken from fastest lap shown at end of race). It took me about a lap and a half to get passed him because he kept pulling silly moves at corners where I could pass meaning I had to slam on the brakes so we didn't crash. Effectively ruined my race because by the time I got past it was too late to catch up with people at my own pace.

If someone is obviously faster than me I'll stay slightly wider on a corner and let them slip past.

[TripperCR]

I totally agree and sympathize with you!
I only have a few months under my belt and I know the feeling. Sadly, a very high percentage of drivers are merely "videogamers" and have no sense of what real racedriving is about!
I personally have done a couple of amateur races and attended quite a few Track Days. I know (and sure you know too) what its like to be stuck behind a slower driver for quite a few laps because its never been safe enough to overtake them!
As you must know, most time in real racing, patience is virtue! Just hang in there, be patient and you'll soon have the best of them!
And as my experience in LFS so far, and as a recommendation... Join a league or participate in a championship. These normally have proper rulebooks, with race steward checking replays and penalizing drivers wrongdoings and abuses! And the feeling of racing these championships are the closest thing to real racing (the testing, qualifying, strategies, and even the pre-race jitters knowing that if you mess it up, thats it! No points!) is only surpassed by the real thng! I actually received my License by wining one of these championships. As a "noob" I was one of the slowest, but with patience, and clean racing, I won the championship without winning once, but by gaining points consistently in every race! Unlike the faster drivers who won a couple but also had DNF's mainly for rear-ending slower drivers plus being penalized for pushing someone off or by abusing them! So, in the end, I got the best of them!
Sometimes a server with a small grid of close clean racing is better, and more enjoyable than a server with a large grid of "videogamers"!
Cheers,

[AndRand]

Something that I must say and I know many may view it as being elitist is speed. Its all well and good if the difference between the slower and faster drivers is between 1.5-2.0 seconds a lap but I think anything more than that can make it quite hazardous so I'm not trying to be one of those guys "go practice offline you f noob!" but I would considerate it important to do it if the difference in speed is big. Alternatively, there are beginner/amateur leagues where you can race alongside drivers with similair experience and speed.
Pleased to see we can agree on that point.
So I will advertise my poll and idea of new Meeting room, that as I think will slice racers in clusters BUT hopefully will get also those from slower clusters online

[AndRand]

I had this the other night. Now I don't claim to be fast and this particular race (SO Long) I was about 2 seconds off the pace of the lead cars and the guy aggresively blocking me was 2 seconds off my pace (taken from fastest lap shown at end of race). It took me about a lap and a half to get passed him because he kept pulling silly moves at corners where I could pass meaning I had to slam on the brakes so we didn't crash.
This is the fun part of racing - clean overtaking of the slower ones :) Apart from those silly moves of course :D

[Ayreon]

If you are a few laps behind, press 4 to see the racing line, just stay of this line when you are getting blue flags.

[jasonmatthews]

If you are a few laps behind, press 4 to see the racing line, just stay of this line when you are getting blue flags.That is not the best thing to do always. Example, you are being lapped and the leaders are coming up on you, the #1 gets past because it was on a straight but the #2 comes to you just before the corner. If you stay on the racing line, it is race over for him, but if you show a little thought, you could simple move off the racing line.

The main issue is that we are talking about sprint races here, and normal blue flag rules are not the same IMHO. With races of 10 minutes, 1 blueflagger getting in the way can completely ruin a race, when all it takes is a little consideration for the position of the guy coming up on you. Of course, there are plenty of fast drivers who can't drive for toffee, but in the same way, there are plenty of slower people who are just as bad...

[Ayreon]

. If you stay on the racing line, it is race over for him, but if you show a little thought, you could simple move off the racing line.



thats what i said. i dind't say stay ON this line . but OFF this line.

Sorry for any incorrect spelling :)

[AndRand]

ermm... but trying hard to stay off the line you will make silly moves, ie. when going from lefthander to right corner you have to cross racing line :shrug: I would rather propose to stay off the apexes :) Not saying that to argue but I dont claim racing line to be all mine when I see backmarker.

[Ayreon]

Im drivin lfs since 2004 , so i know where to go when getting blue flags.
(if i ever get them:))

But for someone just starting with lfs, its a nice way to know where to go.

[AndRand]

Im drivin lfs since 2004 , so i know where to go when getting blue flags.
(if i ever get them:))
I wouldnt say that seeing your PBs :)
But it would be fun to race with you :thumb:

[mrodgers]

The main issue is that we are talking about sprint races here, and normal blue flag rules are not the same IMHO. With races of 10 minutes, 1 blueflagger getting in the way can completely ruin a race....
Jason makes a good point here. It is quite a difference in the "fun" factor when racing public 5 lappers compared with long length league racing. With how quick the races are on the public servers, a single backmarker can ruin the entire race for someone who is racing up front. In fact, he will ruin it for the frontrunner because all it takes is a single corner to be held up in and he is way behind with the race finishing up pretty quickly.

That's only a point I want to, well, point out. It still doesn't mean that a backmarker should jump completely out of the way or be punted from the track, if he had started the race. On the other hand, with these public races, the question arises as to how one gets to the point of being blue flagged by the lead pack. Really the only way to become a lap down on a public server would be to have wrecked/spun out, to have mid-joined, or be so horribly slow that he really shouldn't be online racing. In this case, then the race really is over for said backmarker (or never started to begin with) and there isn't much point in not getting out of the way.

Also, I do see the "2 seconds off" mentioned quite a lot. If someone is 2 seconds off pace from another racer, that person is not going to go a lap down in a public racing server. Without calculating, I would say someone would have to be at least 15 to 20 seconds or more slower to go a lap down in 5 laps (depending on car/track combo of course.)

[Neilser]

Really the only way to become a lap down on a public server would be to have wrecked/spun out, to have mid-joined, or be so horribly slow that he really shouldn't be online racing. In this case, then the race really is over for said backmarker (or never started to begin with) and there isn't much point in not getting out of the way.
I agree in general, but that point isn't entirely valid when you've got XFRs sharing the track with XFGs :) And when you've got both faster and slower cars battling for positions when the leaders catch the slower class, it's quite tricky to have a clean and fair outcome...

And then there's the slow-driver-in-front scenario that menantoll mentioned.
I've also seen a lot of dreadful blocking in the last few weeks, whereby someone slower by a good 2 seconds a lap becomes a roadblock for multiple laps and is only passable when they make a serious error. I've even been punted off the track twice today by people who decided to cut right in front of me to block, just as I was starting to overlap.

In reply to the OP: I sympathise - you're probably in the right. Don't give up on finding servers with sane drivers :)

[PS: to really see people getting lapped a lot, try the IHR Rally server: LX4 vs. UF1 at FE6 ;)]

[jasonmatthews]

Completely agree with mrodgers here and partly with Neil..

mrodgers point.... Completely correct, if anyone is 20 seconds a lap slower than everyone else, and the leaders are coming up on them, then yes, gtfo of the way please. If it is a different class, then of course the rules change, but again, the chances of you battling for a position is tiny, and the leaders are the leaders. There is such a small chance that the leaders of the XFG class are going to be lapped by the XFR class in a short race that it shouldn't be an issue...

Neils' point... If someone is on the lead lap with you and is 2 seconds a lap slower than your best ever time, tough... It is up to you to pass him, that is called racing :D You have 0 rights, and he should do everything in his power to block the racing line. This doesn't mean swerving over the road and making more than two distinct moves, but it is completely what racing is all about.. This is where skill and experience comes in, rather than hotlapping ability. You HAVE to out-think your opponent, not just out speed them ;)

[Woz]

For the OP: LFS also does suffer what I will call hot lap racers.

These are people that can lay down great hotlap time but fail to understand race rules or understand that the person that has a place on them might not be as fast.

They end rear ending slower drivers that start higher in the grid etc because they just don't judge the situation or they believe they have the right to dive through at the wrong times when they don't have position to make a move. Their view is I am faster so go out my way.

These people normally only join servers without wind enabled because that might effect their "hot lapping"

The situation is compounded as other have pointed out because most LFS races are sprint races. LFS should add a yellow %/ratio to the stats that records the number of races and number of yellows so servers can filter bad racers (Fast and slow)

[AndRand]

The situation is compounded as other have pointed out because most LFS races are sprint races. LFS should add a yellow %/ratio to the stats that records the number of races and number of yellows so servers can filter bad racers (Fast and slow)
I think hotlappers will be included as going on the limit is going to thelimit of mistake.

BTW. Minimap markers could have option to show racers ahead/behind in race (as it is now) or different car classes for multiclass races :thumb:

[Neilser]

Neils' point... If someone is on the lead lap with you and is 2 seconds a lap slower than your best ever time, tough... It is up to you to pass him, that is called racing :D
Totally agree - that's racing and it's great fun. But it was exactly the "swerving over the road and making more than two distinct moves" that I was talking about. Drivers who realise at the last second that their mistake at the last corner cost them enough speed that I'm now coming past and so they swerve in front - frequently after some overlap has already been established. That's not racing :)

[voight kampff]

Just realised that some of this has happened in a multiclass server as mentioned by another reply.

This has meant that the difference in speed between me in the slow GTI and the leaders is massive. I have sometimes had no blue flag at all and been hit by a much faster car and been ripped into for being slow and not getting out of the way.

I intend to check out some of the servers mentioned above. I am sure I find some of you guys online and have some good races.

Thanks for helping me with all the above advice.

See you online.

:)

[Gener_AL (UK)]

For the OP: LFS also does suffer what I will call hot lap racers.

These are people that can lay down great hotlap time but fail to understand race rules or understand that the person that has a place on them might not be as fast.



Here we go blame the fast guys :)


here is a copy/paste of the top hotlappers.

Main Hotlap Rank: RANK INFO
Pos Racer Handicap Done
1 arrechee -0:49.645 18 C
2 Bawbag -0:49.055 18 C
3 Rocabiliz -0:48.375 18 C
4 DaveWS -0:47.485 18 C
5 Jonesy_ -0:43.465 18 C
6 Karolis[Lt] -0:40.965 18 C
7 M4ver1ck -0:36.575 18 C
8 Gargus -0:35.345 18 C
9 zeromussov -0:32.335 18 C
10 indie -0:27.875 18

they must all suck bad :nod:

or how about this list...

WR holders chart:
arrowkart4 106
arrechee 76
Karolis[Lt] 50
NickC 48
Daniel1992 36
_Mateusz_ 36
MarcG 35
510N3D 34
hugoluis 21
[DUcK] 19
Fox 2 18
Zanini 18
vincper 18
Bawbag 16
pecholobo 16
DaveWS 15
AutoPilot 13
Garfild12 12

Please tell me which ones cannot race :D, and if any racer on the track knows the lines best its usually not the one getting blueflagged ok.

Ive seen this point come up a lot of times regarding hotlappers and racing skills. Couldnt be further then the truth imo. The "hotlapper" is more likely to be on the limit and the inexeperienced blueflagged racer will more then likely be unable to anticipate manouvers made by the incoming pack. I`ve raced enough hotlappers to know that this "hot lap racers". condition is not the case as you present it to be.

The "hot lap racer" will be more likely intrested in tweaking and testing set, while racing. And in my opinion server that have midrace enable do so, so that other racers can join in the fun. (this is why they are racing on servers with no wind)
Getting blueflagged when you have joined mid race and trying to hold a racing line in sprint racing is very unsportman like.


Just thought id straighten that point out a little.

Anyways all thats needed is common sense and decency regardless of speed, skill, age, colour, sex, height, weight, looks, financial status, religous beliefs and vices. Oh and forum post count, amount of WR held, stats and hardware owned :smileypul

*edit*
If you want an example of how the idiots getting blueflagged ruin sprint racing just got to ironhorseracing.*
If you want decent racing with racers, id recconmend Deadmenracing or R2R servers.

[bbman]

ermm... but trying hard to stay off the line you will make silly moves, ie. when going from lefthander to right corner you have to cross racing line :shrug: I would rather propose to stay off the apexes :) Not saying that to argue but I dont claim racing line to be all mine when I see backmarker.

Im drivin lfs since 2004 , so i know where to go when getting blue flags.
(if i ever get them:))

But for someone just starting with lfs, its a nice way to know where to go.

Both too complex, there is one so simple guideline it cannot be mistaken: Choose one side of the track, show it and stay there - if the lapping driver has even one iota of race craft in him he will find a way to get by...

Here we go blame the fast guys :) [...]

If you reread his post, he nowhere accuses the WR-ranks of that behaviour... And there definitely are people out there who fall apart when they are forced to take any other than the(ir) ideal line... I once saw someone taking half the field out and blaming his opponent when clearly he failed to take into account that he had to brake earlier/harder being on the inside and simply didn't make the corner... :shrug: Maybe that term is a bit misleading, but then we all have to find a better one, don't we?

[cobra193]

I'm kindof tired of people whining about this. The points made above are not really valid at all.

The whole problem here is that the blue flag warning comes out LONG BEFORE THE FASTER DRIVER IS ON YOUR REAR!!!!!! The problem is lapped drivers see the blue flag, then ignore it until the faster car is now right on their rear bumper. Then, when they ARE on their rear bumper, they are in the middle of a chicane or a turn or something, then complain about not having a safe place to pull over.

B.S. A simple rule, when you see the blue flag, simply look on the map and if you see a turn or a chicane coming up YOU HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO SLOW and let the faster car go BEFORE the turn or chicane.

I know sometimes you are racing for position too (even though at least one lap down), but the bottom line is that the rule does state "YOU MUST NOT SLOW THE LAPPING CAR DOWN!!!!"

That's why it's frustrating for faster drivers.

[jasonmatthews]

Wrong, on so many levels....

And it is people like you that threads like these are made :(

[Woz]

Here we go blame the fast guys :)

You missed my point and went off on a tangent. So take a deep breath and calm down. I did not mention any specific drivers but more a driver mentality which I call hotlap racer. Let me expand.

There are many great people that hold hotlap records and it was not a dig at any of them as the names you mention are respected hot lapping and racing so climb off your high horse for a while :)

I was pointing out that some drivers have a mentality when they race that racing is the same as hotlapping, when we all know they are very different skills.

Racing is compromise where you have to react to the situation around you and take other drivers actions into account while a hotlap you have the track to yourself and can put to the limits. So the people I call hotlap racers fail to understand this.

You will also find the people I call hotlap racers are the people that bitch if wind is on for example because they care more about lap time than race position. In a race lap time means nothing, only position matters, and normally your lap times are lower because fighting for position effects the lap time of both people in the fight for position.

Hope that helps lower your blood pressure and let you see what I was talking about :)

The short 3-5 lap races really compound this issue a hugh amount as well. When you have a 10+ lap race you have time to fall into a pace and look for mistakes in the driver in front and have time to presure them into mistakes. In a sprint race too many drivers get red mist.

[jasonmatthews]

Good point, but I think you and General AL can both agree, that good hotlappers are usually good racers...

The issue is, the term hotlappers is used to categorise a certain behaviour of driving which you have so eloquently pointed out, but all good hotlappers in my experience have loads of LFS racing experience and are probably the best and fairest drivers in LFS, so it doesn't fit the description that people label them with. Simply say, some people are fast but simply have no racecraft, or are flucking idiots, or cannot race for toffee, but to use the hotlapper term is just wrong... IMHO of course :D

[Woz]

Good point, but I think you and General AL can both agree, that good hotlappers are usually good racers...

The issue is, the term hotlappers is used to categorise a certain behaviour of driving which you have so eloquently pointed out, but all good hotlappers in my experience have loads of LFS racing experience and are probably the best and fairest drivers in LFS, so it doesn't fit the description that people label them with. Simply say, some people are fast but simply have no racecraft, or are flucking idiots, or cannot race for toffee, but to use the hotlapper term is just wrong... IMHO of course :D

I agree the term I use can be confused but it also is a good description of those that think they can race in the same way you set a hotlap. No race craft is a far wider category of people and include new people that no nothing of race lines etc so does not carry the same meaning :)

That said bbman had no problem understanding what I originally said so it was clear when read all the way through instead of reading a word like hotlap out of context then reacting with a rant :)

[bbman]

I'm kindof tired of people whining about this. The points made above are not really valid at all.

The whole problem here is that the blue flag warning comes out LONG BEFORE THE FASTER DRIVER IS ON YOUR REAR!!!!!! The problem is lapped drivers see the blue flag, then ignore it until the faster car is now right on their rear bumper. Then, when they ARE on their rear bumper, they are in the middle of a chicane or a turn or something, then complain about not having a safe place to pull over.

B.S. A simple rule, when you see the blue flag, simply look on the map and if you see a turn or a chicane coming up YOU HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO SLOW and let the faster car go BEFORE the turn or chicane.

I know sometimes you are racing for position too (even though at least one lap down), but the bottom line is that the rule does state "YOU MUST NOT SLOW THE LAPPING CAR DOWN!!!!"

That's why it's frustrating for faster drivers.

You are a textbook case of someone who doesn't understand one bit of racing, and it's so saddening that so many like you found their way to sim racing... EVERY SINGLE rulebook of any motorsport series CLEARLY states that it is the LAPPER'S responsibility to ensure a safe pass - meaning the only difference to a normal pass is that the lappee is advised not to actively defend his position, but he would very well be entitled to drive bang on racing line! Every deviation from it that he makes is courtesy on his behalf!

[Neilser]

but the bottom line is that the rule does state "YOU MUST NOT SLOW THE LAPPING CAR DOWN!!!!"
OMG, only just spotted this sentence in your post.

Can you explain which rulebook you've been reading? Every set of rules I can remember reading states that a car lapping backmarkers should expect to lose time.

[AndRand]

You will also find the people I call hotlap racers are the people that bitch if wind is on for example because they care more about lap time than race position. In a race lap time means nothing, only position matters, and normally your lap times are lower because fighting for position effects the lap time of both people in the fight for position.
That is the source of invention of GT2 class and balancing restrictions :D

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Just to clarify somthing about my earlier post in this thread, it wasnt a rant.
Just pointing out that the term "hot lapper racer" that was used to describe this type of behaviour, is & was quite misleading and frustating, and instulting for the majoroty of hotlappers.

[mrodgers]

Just to clarify something about my earlier post in this thread, it wasn't a rant.
Just pointing out that the term "hot lapper racer" that was used to describe this type of behavior, is & was quite misleading and frustrating, and insulting for the majority of hotlappers.
Google for "adjective". He says "hot laper racer" in which "racer" is the adjective giving description to the "hot lapper". By adding an adjective, it differentiates "Hot lapper racer" and "Hot lapper."

There was so many words underlined in red from Firefox it was pathetic. If I missed any other mistypings in that short narrative, please forgive me.

[voight kampff]

I have spent all day playing on IRacers and I have to say that the attitude on that game is spot on.

I have not had a single problem despite it being my first day. I have a had a few 20 lap races and not once got in a fast drivers way becuase when it came to it they overtook me in a safe place and all I got was "thanks" from fast drivers as I was using blue flag rules correctly.

I know IRacers is much more expensive, but the difference in my enjoyment cannot be measured. I even came 6th in one race and was battling for 5th while being lapped and had no probs at all.

The attitude of some fast drivers is at fault on LFS in my limited experience.

Thanks for the replies, I'm going back on IRacers for some more clean racing without a single bit of grief from anybody.

[AndRand]

you know, if I were to pay 8 to 14 bucks a month I will have to be racing couple of hours daily, not just taking some races from time to time. :shrug: But if I were... I would climb on those crappy ranks everywhere in LFS, 24 quids for once :tilt:

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Maybe that term is a bit misleading, but then we all have to find a better one, don't we?

Yes please.

Good point, but I think you and General AL can both agree, that good hotlappers are usually good racers...


Agreed. Thinking on from my last reply, maybe call them quackers?
(qualifer/crackers)

I have spent all day playing on IRacers and I have to say that the attitude on that game is spot on.


The attitude of some fast drivers is at fault on LFS in my limited experience.

Thanks for the replies, I'm going back on IRacers for some more clean racing without a single bit of grief from anybody.

Ok lets see I usually defend new users.... but your giving me a hard time here.
You are comparing organised racing to public sprint races on multiclass servers and complaining of grief.
I suggest kindly that before you go off into paradise maybe test some organised racing in LFS. Thats the kind part btw, then please share your thougts again.

Google for "adjective". He says "hot laper racer" in which "racer" is the adjective giving description to the "hot lapper". By adding an adjective, it differentiates "Hot lapper racer" and "Hot lapper."

There was so many words underlined in red from Firefox it was pathetic. If I missed any other mistypings in that short narrative, please forgive me.

Oh MrRodgers.... your point is that hot lappers do not race?, or are you just asking for forgiveness for missing errors in my grammar, your spelling, my spelling? Or just snide attempt to educate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determiner_phrase) the new ones in how this forum operates?
Promote Iracing? Cure insomnia?

The point is. This thread is made by a racer (http://www.lfsworld.net/?win=stats&racer=voight%20kampff&abc=269) with from what I can tell from LFSWorld and the questions the user has posed.
That he is new to sim racing, and the styles of servers in LFS.
The user states that he is a very inexpericened racer, that is having difficulties in coping with faster traffic (surely its just not the one blue flag he is having difficulty with now surely).
Some very good posts made, and helpful explinations, and some cheap shots.
And now that hes caused a hurricane in a teacup, hes off for delightful jolly.
So what have we learnt.

A. Dont judge a book by its writing (advice given)
B. The colour of your skin does not make you drive faster (although red is in your head)
C. Idiots will follow where fools tread hopelessly. (racing lines)
D. No matter how hard you try, you can always try harder (please be my guest)

The problem is that sometimes new racers try and fail to hold the racing line under blueflag conditions,they will slowdown, pull wide the closer you get, taking both the racing line the passing line and a corner exit. Or just stop dead and then spectate. Then comes the other part of the problem, the voteban happy crowd, the quackers type racer then ploughs on his line regardless.
Resulting in this thread. Time will tell and wounds will heal. But disrespecting a blue flag and blaming hotlappers !!!!!!1111

Its only natural as new users gotta learn, as well as some oldies myself included.

peace o/

[Ger Roady]

B.S. A simple rule, when you see the blue flag, simply look on the map and if you see a turn or a chicane coming up YOU HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO SLOW and let the faster car go BEFORE the turn or chicane.

* note to myself " Bigger parking lots propose in the improvement suggestion thread " :D

[Ger Roady]

I'm going back on IRacers .
BYE TROLL :wave:

[JohnPenn]

Who's winning anyone have the score?
Those Hotlappers are causing all the problems, how dare they set fast lap times, avoid them like the plague.
As for Iracing when you drive the cars its just on another level from anything I pretended to drive before , but it faces the same problems that LFS does.

1:No one is ever wrong and they will defend that postion untill there's no one left to listen.

2: In Iracing the hotlappers get special black colours to warn you about them:)


The more thing change the more they stay the same.

[AcesHigh]

The best thing to do in LFS to get rid of this kamikaze arcade style of driving, is to stay away from it and join a league or something... i absolutely hated racing in LFS for a good while, i found it boring and pointless since i always ended up being rear ended in T1 or getting spun out att last corner last lap because someone wanted to gain a position fast.

Then i tried out league racing, and it got me hooked... i join in on a race once a week(if i like the combo) and the race is worth the wait defenetly... 45min of awesome racing and an awesome yet very competetive atmosphere on the server, minimum amount of crashes(even though they happen), a tolerance for slow drivers, and ofcourse slow drivers that dont want to mess up so they leave room.

It´s awesome and should be experienced by everyone.


Though sometimes ivé been wondering about starting a private server, and starting sort of a "club" for clean and good racers.. and thus carefully distributing the password only to racers that behave... in the beginning it would be a kinda small crowd... but if you like the swedish community have like a good 20 racers wich would pass the "clean test".... and then pull out like 10-20 from like 2 or more other countries you would soon have a rather sweet crowd of clean racers having a blast...

sorry for rant...

[Woz]

Oh MrRodgers.... your point is that hot lappers do not race?, or are you just asking for forgiveness for missing errors in my grammar, your spelling, my spelling? Or just snide attempt to educate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determiner_phrase) the new ones in how this forum operates?
Promote Iracing? Cure insomnia?

Just calm down and re-read my original post. You are too hung up associating what I said with something you and many other enjoy when it has been explained again and again and again that was not the case.

Here is the start of my post "LFS also does suffer what I will call hot lap racers.". The points of interest in this sentence are underlined!

Notice it did not say "LFS also suffers hot lappers" which is a very different sentence. The two sentences are VERY VERY different and mean very different things.

I then go on to actually explain in the post what I mean by a hot lap racer yet because you had locked in your mind (and still are hung up on) that it was an insult to hot lapping you failed to actually read what was being said and what context it was being said in.

Then when I expanded on what I mean so that everyone else understands you will still not let it go.

One final time.... It was not an insult to hot lappers. Grow up, let it go and get over it! The term does not matter, everyone else understands what was said and nobody else thinks it was an inslut to the LFS hot lap community.

Who's winning anyone have the score?
Those Hotlappers are causing all the problems, how dare they set fast lap times, avoid them like the plague.
As for Iracing when you drive the cars its just on another level from anything I pretended to drive before , but it faces the same problems that LFS does.

1:No one is ever wrong and they will defend that postion untill there's no one left to listen.

2: In Iracing the hotlappers get special black colours to warn you about them


The more thing change the more they stay the same.

Opps I was wrong. There is one other person that has not actually read what is being said. Noticed the word hot lap and then assumed I was insulting hot lappers.

JohnPenn also equals Fail!

Re-read what has been said but before you do remove from you mind it is an insult to the hotlap community. You might then actually understand and also agree with what has been said.

[cobra193]

Wrong, on so many levels....

And it is people like you that threads like these are made :(

So instead of making blanket statements like that, simply back up your point with facts..

for instance from the original posters post (and every single server rule that I've read...

From OP's first post....

........
All my problems seem to come from blue flag issues… L

Here are some of the blue flag rules from lfs website:

“In this case you are hindering his progress and must allow him to pass you as soon as it is safe to do so (you can't be expected to yield while negotiating a chicane or high speed corner) Hold your line don't fight the other car, do not make any sudden movements left or right, ease off slightly and let him pass. He is a lap ahead of you and you are not fighting him for position. You must not hold him up.”



So what other 'level' is wrong (in your opinion)?


You are a textbook case of someone who doesn't understand one bit of racing, and it's so saddening that so many like you found their way to sim racing... EVERY SINGLE rulebook of any motorsport series CLEARLY states that it is the LAPPER'S responsibility to ensure a safe pass - meaning the only difference to a normal pass is that the lappee is advised not to actively defend his position, but he would very well be entitled to drive bang on racing line! Every deviation from it that he makes is courtesy on his behalf!

Again, don't state something you believe is fact unless you can back it up. Just post a link to any rule (real or game) where that does NOT have a line something like this in it MUST NOT HOLD UP THE FASTER CAR?? Bottom line is to NOT hold someone up you MUST get off the driving line and let the faster car pass.

Please read rules carefully before arguing with people. And, as typical with posters like YOU, it turns into a personal attack because you have no arguements.

[durrri]

If you are a few laps behind, press 4 to see the racing line, just stay of this line when you are getting blue flags.

I must DISAGREE

I will quote the Rules of Clean Racing again:
"L-2: The leading driver that is lapping the slower car must treat the situation as though he's overtaking a normal competitor - and not assume the lapped driver should leap out of the way at all costs. "

I understand the issue with short races and the higher implications that come with "traffic slowdown" for the leading driver.. but this is part of all kinds of racing IRL as well..


The problem comes when one must use judgement:
"L-3: The driver that is being lapped should let the lead driver past and/or not resist to be overtaken if the lead driver has sufficient overlap. Only move out of the way for the lead driver when you believe it is safe to do so. For example, not on the apex of a corner. "
..since the judgment will vary with the experience (and common sense) of the slower driver..

I think the bottom line is: we have to stick to the basic rule that in all situations, it is a regular overtaking, and thus should be realised within the rules..

[durrri]

Again, don't state something you believe is fact unless you can back it up. Just post a link to any rule (real or game) where that does NOT have a line something like this in it MUST NOT HOLD UP THE FASTER CAR?? Bottom line is to NOT hold someone up you MUST get off the driving line and let the faster car pass.

http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Rules_of_Clean_Racing (http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Rules_of_Clean_Racing)


Please read rules carefully before arguing with people. And, as typical with posters like YOU, it turns into a personal attack because you have no arguements.

not gladly, but i must say this: FAIL, "poster"

[bbman]

Again, don't state something you believe is fact unless you can back it up. Just post a link to any rule (real or game) where that does NOT have a line something like this in it MUST NOT HOLD UP THE FASTER CAR?? Bottom line is to NOT hold someone up you MUST get off the driving line and let the faster car pass.

Please read rules carefully before arguing with people. And, as typical with posters like YOU, it turns into a personal attack because you have no arguements.

Oh, I don't know, how about every rulebook of the FIA, the ACO? If more convenient, I'm sure you can find it in the SCCA regs as well... If you had made the trip to the LfS website you'd know that there is no guidelines on racing conduct there... Even the wiki entry for blue flags reads totally different... So you in fact can't back up your ridiculous rule while all the proper authorities disagree with you... Who has the arguments now?

[Ger Roady]

You can also immediately stick a fork into the power socket, when you get a blue flag. When you have reconnected, it is gone. :thumb:

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Though sometimes ivé been wondering about starting a private server, and starting sort of a "club" for clean and good racers.. and thus carefully distributing the password only to racers that behave... in the beginning it would be a kinda small crowd... but if you like the swedish community have like a good 20 racers wich would pass the "clean test".... and then pull out like 10-20 from like 2 or more other countries you would soon have a rather sweet crowd of clean racers having a blast...

sorry for rant...
Slightly off topic, but keep reading.
When i used to be a part of the team dSRC around the time s2 was about to be released during those mad demo times.
We often had a busy server and the best way we found was once full/populated. Lock the server (password) filter out the timewaters/idiots (ban/kick) then open the server up etc.
This way everybody gets to know everyone, and there is more trust, and generally a much better experience allround.

Servers run like this are few and far between these days.
Most of the people here should remember [dSRC] Battlegrounds
Maybe its me but back then (and yes back then is only 4-5 years)
Most new racers were alot more respctful and possibly daunted by
The game itself. The same goes for this forum.
Nowadays theres alot of egos flying around, my own included.
People seem to have little paitence these days, veterans and new comers alike on and off the track ingame/forums.
But one thing that has driven my desire for LFS is the way it makes you constantly seek ways to improve oneself. Regardless of some of the nonsense you see posted in a high percentage of threads, or some of the driving you encounter along the way.

But maybe what im trying to point out is that respect ultimately is the key to understanding blue flag situations, and other racers.

[libben]

One thing I hate with Blue Flag situations is when i'm getting blue flagged and the server automatic pits me for not letting the car behind pass me after a 10 seconds or whatever the server is having.


Now, I do let all pass me everytime, but what I hate is when i'm blue flagged and the guy is barely seeing in my mirrors. Often they never really catch up, so far away. And then the server pits me. That i hate.

Should be a extended blue flag really. One that warns you from the same distance, and then one that triggers the PITTING when the opponent actually is closer and not like now, barely visible in the mirrors.

[Neilser]

Don't think I've ever been on a server where that happened. Do you remember which server(s)?

[Neilser]

...but you dont have the right to hold them up deliberatly by treating them as if you are defending a lead on the final lap of a race. its astonishing to see some of you saying things like its fair to hold them up and that you "noobs have had enough". enough of what exactly? that some other people are faster than you and that you cant compete with them, and then complain that they have a go at you when you dont let them pass easily. which i think the leader is entitled to have a go at you if you have considrable caused yourself a nousence and gone out of your way to block the leader, which a few of you on this thread seem to be pround of.
Maybe my brain auto-filtered as trolls anyone who posted that kind of garbage, but I really don't recall any such posts in this thread :) The discussion I thought we were having was not about deliberate blocking by the slower car, but about impatient & dangerous passing by the faster cars. Maybe we're coming at this from different angles ;) (But I've done my share of passing too, I should add!)

By the way, I really think the ultimate answer here (particularly if we're considering IHR, where the multi-class issue is a hot topic) is to take a replay of a particularly good example, post it on the relevant server's forum, and say "Hey admins - is this how you feel the faster cars are meant to behave?". If they say yes, you may want to race elsewhere.

[AndRand]

Who's winning anyone have the score?
Those Hotlappers are causing all the problems, how dare they set fast lap times, avoid them like the plague.
Hey, John, you know what he meant. That attitude, called here "hotlapper", meaning someone whon can keep perfecting optimal line but fails when has to take ie. overtaking line or takes it as slowering him down.

As I remember there frequently is one rule in racing regulations on blocking: Going out of turn you can choose your line ONCE (inside or outside in next corner). I think it could clarifiy much in overtaking/blueflag situations.

[cobra193]

i think only a few of you have acctually grasped intelligence on this thread, what a shame. let me explain myself.

If a faster car is approaching you at 2 seconds per lap, you have the right to go about your own line on a straight or whatever, but you dont have the right to hold them up deliberatly by treating them as if you are defending a lead on the final lap of a race. its astonishing to see some of you saying things like its fair to hold them up and that you "noobs have had enough". enough of what exactly? that some other people are faster than you and that you cant compete with them, and then complain that they have a go at you when you dont let them pass easily. which i think the leader is entitled to have a go at you if you have considrable caused yourself a nousence and gone out of your way to block the leader, which a few of you on this thread seem to be pround of.
of course, you can race on your given line, and the leader cant just expect you yo jump out of the way as if they are god. but i think that you are absolutly not entitled to then turn across the leader, or faster car, as they are alongside you in a corner. the amound of times i have slowly and progressivly came up alongside someone i am lapping, for them then to turn into me as if i am not there, its stupid. i then ask these people why they did it.. and i regognise some of the names from these events on this thread, but i will not name names, anyway, they then tell me that it was my fault. ofc im a bit annoyed by this and ask, how its my fault. and they simply turn around and say that it was blue flag, your responsability to get past me. thats completely the wrong message thats being sent out by this game to racers. i can assure you, you do that in real life and you will lose your licence in a very short space of time.

cheers, J

I'm glad someone understands..

You get a blue flag when the faster car is usually 5 seconds back or so, which is plenty of time to find a safe place to let them pass. Most people wait until the faster car is right behind them, THEN they try to find a place. That's too late.

[voight kampff]

Neither of the last two posters haver read and/or understood my original post.

Despite constant careful driving and loads of getting out of the way on blue flag...sooner or later I get a fast hotlapper than rams me out of the way and blames it on me. They assume wrongly that if I slow them down at all I have broken the rules...."FAIL"

The blue flag does not always appear with enough warning and I have had several situations where I have had no flag at all...

I am carefully getting out of the way ASAP but when you get little warning (which does happen with a much faster car in multi class race) I have had many faster drivers going for an insane overtake in an unsafe place with no regard to the blue flag rules.

This has then resulted in totally unfair abuse toward me and that is what this "noob" has had enough of. I have no problem with being new or slow but I have had enough of rude and thoughless "fast" drivers that lack skill when it comes to overtaking people that are slower.

I repeat. A whole day of racing on IRacing with the same driving style and the same ability and the same regard for the blue flag rules and all I have had is polite "thanks" as I move out of the way...

Not one person on IRacing has tried to dive down the inside due to my slowness. They wait until it is safe for both of us and then get on with their race.

Sorry to all you die hard LFS fans, but it is a great game that I have seen the worst of over the last week or so and I have had enough.

I know there will be lots of people that hate me for this thread so sorry. If you could see replays of some of the stuff I am talking about you would agree with me and be ashamed of some of the fast drivers that think they own the road.

Back to IRacing for me and I will not be checking this thread again. I am glad I started it though as I found out about IRacing and have had lots of people agree with me.

Read my original post carefully before replying to this.

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Neither of the last two posters haver read and/or understood my original post.


Maybe so, but as I mentioned you really should try some servers that are not public and if you must race a public server dont race on Ironhorse, that type of server does LFS no favours as you have experienced yourself.

My simple advice try deadmenracing one of the First real servers and still going strong, real gentlemen on there. Try entering a leauge of some kind. Dont let the Idiots spoil your enjoyment.

[boothy]

Read this post carefully I vill say zis only once. Come back with some replays otherwise it's just trolling with anecdotal evidence (options, game > autosave incase you get kicked/banned). Given there will be about 6 LFS races per hour to iRacing's 1, and there is no in-built global penalty for hitting other cars in LFS, then it's more likely people will be more aggressive especially in short races. Looking at your recent stats, pbs, and races you aren't that fast or experienced to start off with so multiclass racing might not be for you.

To all those in the thread, LFS' blue flags are just warnings when a car with more laps than you catches up. There are no rules, except those enforced by server admins.

[Ger Roady]

You get a blue flag when the faster car is usually 5 seconds back or so, which is plenty of time to find a safe place .
Aston National has three curves where you have to wait, because you maybe not able to pass a slower car. And you will tell, on these three curves you can not slow down ? You have to know it because you have done more than 160000 km only with Fzr on this track. Or is this some kind of Ego trip ? You have done so much kilometers on this simulation, and now other drivers have to respect you and have to hide in a hole when you in their mirror ? Tell me ..

. If you could see replays of some of the stuff I am talking about
Yes i would like to see some of the replays. After starting this thread you have not done one single lap online. Maybe i am wrong ,but i assume you where coming from elsewhere only to troll around here. :shrug:

Sorry for my english.

[mdmx]

ermm... but trying hard to stay off the line you will make silly moves, ie. when going from lefthander to right corner you have to cross racing line :shrug: I would rather propose to stay off the apexes :) Not saying that to argue but I dont claim racing line to be all mine when I see backmarker.

You should not try hard to stay off the line, just take it easy, use your common sense (you can do that only if you take it ez;)) and give room when it is needed. :) Here is the ultimate work of art diagram showing howto safely give room in corner. :)

http://mdmx.dyndns.org/images/giving_room_to_pass.jpg

If done properly, you hardly lose that 0.1s by yourself, as a slower driver.

[cobra193]

Neither of the last two posters haver read and/or understood my original post.

Despite constant careful driving and loads of getting out of the way on blue flag...sooner or later I get a fast hotlapper than rams me out of the way and blames it on me. They assume wrongly that if I slow them down at all I have broken the rules...."FAIL"

The blue flag does not always appear with enough warning and I have had several situations where I have had no flag at all...

Read my original post carefully before replying to this.

I read your post carefully.. What I'm trying to tell you is that on MOST servers it IS against the rules to slow a lapping car down period.

In F1 it is a warning, but on almost every LFS server (which is what we are talking about) it is a rule.

The blue flag ALWAYS COMES OUT WITH PLENTY OF WARNING. Please don't say that it doesn't always come out in time because it comes out the same ALWAYS.

You may be gettting confused when there is someone that is behind you mixed in with people that are about to lap you. In that case you might get a blue flag when someone is right behind you, however that blue flag might be for someone that is pretty far back and the person right behind you is someone that is NOT lapping you.

It can get confusing which car is about to lap you and which is simply about to pass you (for position) when there are a lot of cars behind you.

Using the map helps a lot in that situation.

[Greboth]

I'm glad someone understands..

You get a blue flag when the faster car is usually 5 seconds back or so, which is plenty of time to find a safe place to let them pass. Most people wait until the faster car is right behind them, THEN they try to find a place. That's too late.

That purely depends on how much attention you are paying. I say this because, taking blackwood for this example, you come out of the chicance onto the back straight. You are on the straight and you get blue flagged with the car 5 seconds behind. If you are not paying attention to lap times, how do you know how much faster he is than you? 5 seconds can either be alot of not much at all. If you joined mid race and the leader is only 0.5 secs quicker you could easily do a lap or 2 more before you need to think about places to let him past. However if you are a novice, maybe he gains at 2 seconds a lap at which point you have very little time. I say this because if you don't know how fast they are gaining you can only judge it from the mirrors as you go, at which point maybe he does catch you at a bad place on track.

Generally speaking, if you are ahead then drive normally until it is safe to let the lead driver through. If they suddenly gain on you under breaking then take a wide line leaving the inside of the corner open for them to pass.

It all comes down to common sense, racing etiquete and manners and through a mix of anonymity of the internet (manners) and people not knowing better (racing etiquette) it causes problems.

And finally, one thing that people should always remember in these situations is you can't talk to the other person, people have to 'read' the body language of the car which does involve risk and accidents do happen due to this. With public races there will be another in 5 mins and its a game (not a real highly expensive racing car) so relax.

[obsolum]

The blue flag ALWAYS COMES OUT WITH PLENTY OF WARNING. Please don't say that it doesn't always come out in time because it comes out the same ALWAYS.
You obviously haven't raced in an XFG on the IHR server then, which is where the OP just happened to have spent most of his online races. The difference in speed between the XFG and a GTR car is so huge that there is less than a second (ONE second) between you getting the blue flag message on your screen and the GTR car flying past you, on faster parts of the track. I've done a couple of races there and I found it to be downright frightning. There is no way you can anticipate on a car coming up behind you at that speed. One instant you look in your mirror and there is absolutely nothing there, the next you get a blue flag message and before you even have time to check your mirror or map again the car flies past you. In those cases it is simply impossible to move out of the way in time and it's entirely the faster car's responsibility to overtake you safely.

Any rule that states that lapping drivers should not lose time when lapping cars is ridiculous beyond words. I understand that that is, in fact, the way many servers are run but it ridiculous nevertheless. And I can very well understand how the OP has gotten a completely wrong impression of LFS racing by racing on the IHR server.

[NunoMike]

Again, don't state something you believe is fact unless you can back it up. Just post a link to any rule (real or game) where that does NOT have a line something like this in it MUST NOT HOLD UP THE FASTER CAR?? Bottom line is to NOT hold someone up you MUST get off the driving line and let the faster car pass.

Please read rules carefully before arguing with people. And, as typical with posters like YOU, it turns into a personal attack because you have no arguements.
Man, you're taking it wrong.

When blue flagged, you have to let the faster guy pass. Although, you don't have to jump out of the way! If you're in a chicane or in a corner, you do it, keep pace and in the next decelation zone, you let the guy pass.

It isn't in any rule book that you have to move away, to jump off, to stop your car or to slow down instantly. You can still battle for your position (if your in a position discussion, being for 4th or 34th place) while being lapped and noone will forbid you of doing it only because someone is lapping you...

[Forbin]

Racing motorcycles don't have mirrors, so it's quite simple: riders ahead are not expected to be aware of what's behind them. Whether it be a trackday or a race, the rider ahead is responsible for maintaining a predictable line, and the rider behind is responsible for not colliding with the rider ahead.

I don't see why the addition of mirrors should complicate things so much.

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Racing motorcycles don't have mirrors, so it's quite simple: riders ahead are not expected to be aware of what's behind them. Whether it be a trackday or a race, the rider ahead is responsible for maintaining a predictable line, and the rider behind is responsible for not colliding with the rider ahead.

I don't see why the addition of mirrors should complicate things so much.

But you can hear them?

[Forbin]

Not all the time. I've been surprised by riders passing me plenty of times, especially at high speed (>100 mph) when the wind and the sound of my own bike are quite loud.

[AcesHigh]

I don't see why the addition of mirrors should complicate things so much.

That was probably one of the most sane things said in this thread.

It should not be that hard really, not for anyone! the problem has been stated more than once already... the problem is a too big EGO combined with poor racing skill and lack of respect.

Im currently working on the rules for an upcoming league, and i am holding the Lapping driver fully responsible for any accidents occuring while passing UNLESS the blue flagged racer does not hold a predictable line and/or attempts to block.

Insidents happen even the best drivers, and sometimes there is just no ones or both drivers fault...

[JohnPenn]

Respect the drivers around you and you can tear up the rule book , racing hard for position or a win is fine and expected but to hold up another driver just because a rule says your allowed to.. be honest.


I sense this subject is rearing its head again comes from drivers racing Skoda's and Ferrari's at the same time?:razz:,

I would make everyone drive XFG at Blackwood .. 20 lap races, no toilet breaks, or beverages until you finish :)

[Ger Roady]

20 lap races, no toilet breaks,
Only a challenge if you are a pregnant girl :razz: