New tire physics without hot or flat spots?

[JeffR]

Just wondering if most players would be willing to accept the new tire physics without the hot and flat spot segmented tires, if it meant that the new tire physics could be released sooner.

[Karolis[Lt]]

thanks, no :D

[_--NZ--_[HUN]]

Just wondering if most players would be willing to accept the new tire physics without the hot and flat spot segmented tires, if it meant that the new tire physics could be released sooner.

You know something we don't? And I would happily wait as I don't have time to play anyway :)

[DevilDare]

*Bangs his head against the wall endlesly*

Can the mods/devs update the Forum Rules and put in a like a temporary rule that states "Any new threads about development will results in a infraction".

This is getting beyond stupid. And to answer your question; No. Thats the main reason its taking such a long time, the devs want to get it perfect and make sure everything works as it supposed to before releasing the update.

[Seb66]

Can the mods/devs update the Forum Rules and put in a like a temporary rule that states "Any new threads about development will results in a infraction".


+1:schwitz:

[danthebangerboy]

Just wondering if most players would be willing to accept the new tire physics without the hot and flat spot segmented tires, if it meant that the new tire physics could be released sooner.

So your basically asking would we like new updated tyre physics, without any realism, which if you remove flat spots and heat, thats what you are left with.

[Dac]

The flat spotting and over heating are crucial parts to the simulator, without those you would lose the motivation to not lock-up. Just I hope the same goes when the damage model is complete it will make more inclined to not make contact :)

[Ger Roady]

Would you accept a Scirroco without tyres ? Rockingham without finish line, only to get it earlier? :scratchch

[tiagolapa]

*Bangs his head against the wall endlesly*

Can the mods/devs update the Forum Rules and put in a like a temporary rule that states "Any new threads about development will results in a infraction".

This is getting beyond stupid. And to answer your question; No. Thats the main reason its taking such a long time, the devs want to get it perfect and make sure everything works as it supposed to before releasing the update.

Hi. Your overreaction makes this forum suck worst every day. Keep it cool please.
Who are you to think what gives infraction or not. I hope no one listen to your words because I don't want a dictatorship forum like you suggest. So, you and your friends please stop telling the mods/devs what to do. Its not the first time..
If you still want to increase your post count, simply reply on topic: No, I don't want a semi-finished physics model.

[tristancliffe]

Just wondering if most players would be willing to accept the new tire physics without the hot and flat spot segmented tires, if it meant that the new tire physics could be released sooner.

It's already been released. Try LFS 0.3x!

[DevilDare]

Hi. Your overreaction makes this forum suck worst every day. Keep it cool please.
Who are you to think what gives infraction or not. I hope no one listen to your words because I don't want a dictatorship forum like you suggest. So, you and your friends please stop telling the mods/devs what to do. Its not the first time..
If you still want to increase your post count, simply reply on topic: No, I don't want a semi-finished physics model.

So you're better off with these thread created every 10mins?

Alot of us arent, and we are simply getting sick of this nonsense....

It will be ready when its ready. How hard is it to understand? Moaning wont change a damn thing - So why bother? Please answer; Why bother?!

[obsolum]

Alot of us arent, and we are simply getting sick of this nonsense....
Simply don't click on the thread then? :tilt:

[Mango Juice]

I'd be happy if they released it right now. I'm sure the bugs can't be much worse than those that you find when crashing into a barrier.

[Forbin]

It's already been released. Try LFS 0.3x!
Oh the hilarity of the massive plumes of smoke at the end of the Blackwood straight. What memories. :thumb:

[marsaz]

As a test patch? Sure, why not.

[th84]

And to answer your question; No. Thats the main reason its taking such a long time, the devs want to get it perfect and make sure everything works as it supposed to before releasing the update.

What game have you been playing?

[Ger Roady]

What game have you been playing?

Nothing get at christmas ?

[marzman]

I'll just wait till it comes. I don't play that more also.

How do you know it takes extra time for the flatspots?

[NickC]

If you dont wanna read it, then dont read it. At least react normal to a question. :)

[Jordan2007]

If you dont wanna read it, then dont read it. At least react normal to a question. :)

Answering the question wont matter anything, The dev's will take their time.

Too many threads have been made and from the 1st thread the guy has been flamed.

The dev's are surely lining something up big.

When i drove on rockingham it didnt even feel like LFS.. Im thinking the scirroco and physics wont come out alone.

[broken]

I think that you just turned this into another speculation thread.. But the time will show. :D

[thisnameistaken]

Alot of us arent, and we are simply getting sick of this nonsense....

You and who?

"A lot of us" are sick of aggressive responses from people like you.

[MMMaaaXXX]

you and who?

"a lot of us" are sick of aggressive responses from people like you.


+1

[Ger Roady]

Kev, the new Dalai Lama ? :D

It will be ready when its ready.

Boring like 50 same threads, are 50 same phrase answers :x

[DevilDare]

Boring like 50 same threads are 50 same phrase answers :x

And what exactly do you expect?

If you saw 49 threads with the same answer, what on earth would make you think that the 50th time it would be different?

The devs have said it themselves. Yes its annoying, yes it could be faster, but its not. Deal with it.

Go play some other great games out there in the meantime. LFS wont go anywhere....

At the moment there are 5 threads on the first page about development. Probably more if you count the ones that derailed into that topic.... Its stupid. There is absolutely no point for them. It was stated nice and clear - We will release it when we feel like it is good enough. So I will repeat myself again; Why bother...?

[broken]

I gotta agree with DevilDare... You are like hungry wolves, that need a victim in the mean time before they get to the sheep.. You know, it's kinda sad to see how you turn against anyone who wants the forum clean.
Sad ..but ..true. :shrug:

[Ger Roady]

Who is "you" ?
And as a German, i have a problem with clean places :smileypul . Why not let them ask her questions? If the questions would be the same you could link to your answer in another thread, but how to handle when the question is different but you read always the same answer. THAT is boring. :shrug:

[The Moose]

You and who?

"A lot of us" are sick of aggressive responses from people like you.

Spot on :thumbsup:

And to answer the OP. No. Hopefully the devs are taking this much time to get it up to the standard set by iRacing and netKar pro. I'll happily wait for as long as it takes for them to get it right. No one wants a half arsed incomplete physics update. I'm happily racing other sims until they are ready.

[JeffR]

The flat spotting and over heating are crucial parts to the simulatorWhat I referred to was the current segmented tire model, which isn't realistic either, since real tires are analog not digital.

Flat spotting could be emulated instead of simulated, perhaps by offsetting the weight on a tire to make it bounce instead of trying to simulate an actual flat spot. The end result would probably be close enough to the current model to accomplish the same goal as the current model.

The current hot spotting model isn't that realistic anyway, so I'm not sure that it needs to be re-implemented in it's current state with the new tire physics.

My concern here was that the current segemented model may conflict with the new tire physics, as I suspect that the model needs to consider the contact patch and the parts of the tire affected by the contact patch as a whole rather than as a bunch of somewhat independent segments.

A more realistic approach would be to have dynamically sized segments, but that seems overly complex.

The main point here is that since the tire physics is being redone, perhaps now would be a good time to do a rethink of the segemented model.

[Ger Roady]

The tyre model is analog ,not digital. Digital would be Hot or cold . Analog is with many, many steps between this two circumstances .( like we have now )

[tristancliffe]

It's an analogue system on a digital machine. Besides, the segmented model is a damn good way of doing it if you think about it. Your suggested method would lose any attempt at realism (e.g. repeatedly locking a wheel on the same flat spot).

[JeffR]

repeatedly locking a wheel on the same flat spot.I think my offsetting weight method would produce similar results, the tire would tend to lock up at a previous flat spot. I don't know if or how the current segmented model deals with flat spots that are longer than one tire segment, so it's hard to say just how realistic it is.

A dynamic (variable size) segmented model would be more accurate, to prevent it from getting overly complex, there would need to be some arbritrary limit on the number of dynamic segements on a tire.

[Kamrock]

I think my offsetting weight method would produce similar results, the tire would tend to lock up at a previous flat spot. I don't know if or how the current segmented model deals with flat spots that are longer than one tire segment, so it's hard to say just how realistic it is.

A dynamic (variable size) segmented model would be more accurate, to prevent it from getting overly complex, there would need to be some arbritrary limit on the number of dynamic segements on a tire.

I think you're going to have to try and explain what by Dynamic (variable size) you mean?

I can see several possible options, although none seem to add significantly more benefits. Also, I think the weight offsetting is missing the fact a flat spot is not only goin to cause vibrations at the wheel, but it will miss out the wear of the tyre... at the moment the LFS Tyre model allows you to flat spot the tyre, as a result making you more likely to catch this flat spot again and the segments of the tyre that are overheating/flat are also thinner now and getting thinner with every lock up...

[JeffR]

I think you're going to have to try and explain what by Dynamic (variable size) you mean?Instead of modeling flat spots with a 1 or more fixed sized segments, a flat spot would be a calculated surface area of the tread, essentially the size of the affected contact patch on the tire. This area would then become one of the dynamic segments on the tire. If the tire was flat spotted in another part, then another dynamic segment would be created. If the segments overlapped, they could be merged into a single segment if appropriate. There would need to be some reasonable limit on this, perhaps 3 to 6 segments would be enough.

For the hot spotting, or at least to deal with camber issues, the hot section would be a cylinder all the way around the tread, but only partly across the tread, with an average temperature and an temperature gradient parameter for outside to inside of that hot "cylinder". 3 cylinders zones around the tire would probably be enough.

In real life, unless the flat spotting is extremely minor, you genernally have to pit and get a tire change.

[Nick7]

*Bangs his head against the wall endlesly*

Can the mods/devs update the Forum Rules and put in a like a temporary rule that states "Any new threads about development will results in a infraction".

http://www.khanya.co.za/blogs/images/head_in_sand_2.gif

[birder]

At the moment there are 5 threads on the first page about development.

I think this says just how much frustration there is about the lack of real developement. The devs have said what they are doing and why, and everyone understands that, however it has to be possible for them to keep a frustrated forum more informed of how its going.

As it is they seem to be saying that good old classic "The cheque is in the post" and after a while that wears a bit thin.

As to "Go and race other sims" people have.

My old boss used to say, "If someone moans to you, always treat it as a compliment."

What he was saying was those who moan/complain have at least taken the time to say something, that they care about your company or product and want to support it, they will tell others about it.

The customers who say nothing are the ones who never come back and they will say bad things about it in private.

Saying all of that its clear the devs take no notice at all of our frustrations and have made it clear "It will be done when it done"

We have already closed down 4 of our LFS servers and opened up 2 on nKpro while we wait. Leguna Seca, Spa, Silverstone and Snetterton are just great tracks dont you think.......... But it would be great to race LFS again very soon :nod:

[Ger Roady]

Besides, the segmented model is a damn good way of doing it if you think about it.

Yes, and it is surprising that this should not work any more.

We found it impossible to simply use the old heating model with some adjusted figures as we had hoped. Some more real updates are needed to get the heating and cooling of tyres right.

[tristancliffe]

That post doesn't mention the segmented part of it not working, but the algorithms used within it for the heating/cooling. I would be very surprised if the segment system doesn't remain.

But I'm no programmer, and I've no special insider information. Just a hunch really.

[marzman]

The tyre model is analog ,not digital. Digital would be Hot or cold . Analog is with many, many steps between this two circumstances .( like we have now )
Many, many steps is stil digital. Analog is a continues movement, not steps :)

[Ger Roady]

0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 = Digital
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 = Analog

My pedals still works analog with 255 steps. Yours not ?

[jahvetti02]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_signal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem

[AndroidXP]

0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 = Digital
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 = Analog

0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 = Digital
1 10 11 100 101 110 111 1000 1001 1010 = Analog

:really: ?

[Glenn67]

Your POT is read by a ADC so the PC is seeing a digital representaion of an analog signal, not the actual analog singnal. Hence why some pay dollars to get higher precision analog to digital converters as well as better quality POTs which then in turn gives greater precision in control input in a game as it will be "closer" to an analog signal...

[tiagolapa]

(...)

We have already closed down 4 of our LFS servers and opened up 2 on nKpro while we wait. Leguna Seca, Spa, Silverstone and Snetterton are just great tracks dont you think.......... But it would be great to race LFS again very soon :nod:

Hi. The last weekend I fired up netkar pro and noticed CD servers with people racing. But in Laguna, and I don't have that track in this SIM. I must find it to join the fun :)

[Ger Roady]

In this manner you can't find anything analog in a computer system because you can always go down to 0 and 1.

[tiagolapa]

In this manner you can't find anything analog in a computer system because you can always go down to 0 and 1.

Yes you are right. But some systems are closer to analogue fidelity but never equal. This is of topic and maybe you dont care, but thats why virtual instruments or processing units will never sound like the the real analog gear. Same applies to vinyl and CDs. Take care

[_--NZ--_[HUN]]

In this manner you can't find anything analog in a computer system because you can always go down to 0 and 1.

Exactly, analog is only an illusion. With very little steps it is close to analog but it isn't analog.

edit: tiagolapa was faster :)

[BOSCHO]

*Bangs his head against the wall endlesly*

Can the mods/devs update the Forum Rules and put in a like a temporary rule that states "Any new threads about development will results in a infraction".



http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/4/3/4/4/i/4/2/0/o/head_in_sand.jpg

[Ger Roady]

This explains another problem.

The tyres are not round .. they are square. That must be the reason , I am so slow.

[AndroidXP]

They aren't square. At least not more square than floating point precision permits. The sections just hold the information, but have nothing to do with the collision between tyre and asphalt itself.

E: Or was that meant as a jab at "hurr, nothing is analogue"?

[Ger Roady]

E: Or was that meant as a jab at "hurr, nothing is analogue"?

Yes, it was :D

[wheel4hummer]

;1351397']Exactly, analog is only an illusion. With very little steps it is close to analog but it isn't analog.

I think that digital is only an illusion. There aren't really ones and zeroes in a computer, but rather ranges of voltages used to represent an on/off state. For example, I found a datasheet for an i2c uart (Basically just interfaces two different kinds of serial busses) just as an example. Vdd is the supply voltage to the chip. A high input is defined as 0.7Vdd - 5.5V. Meaning 2.31V-5V for a 3.3V supply voltage. The high and low states are really just logical states given to an analog signal.

[gezmoor]

So you're better off with these thread created every 10mins?

Alot of us arent, and we are simply getting sick of this nonsense....

It will be ready when its ready. How hard is it to understand? Moaning wont change a damn thing - So why bother? Please answer; Why bother?!


Seems to me with my vague understanding of the english language that the OP asked a simple question.

Also, seems to me with that same limited grasp of the english language that I possess that it is you that is "moaning". :shrug:

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/moan?view=uk


moan



• verb 1 utter or make a moan. 2 informal complain; grumble.

complain


• verb 1 express dissatisfaction or annoyance.

grumble


• verb 1 complain or protest in a bad-tempered but muted way

:shrug:

[gezmoor]

The tyre model is analog ,not digital. Digital would be Hot or cold . Analog is with many, many steps between this two circumstances .( like we have now )


Actualy analogue has no steps, (well at least not in the world we inhabit, rather than in the quantum world). So what we have is a digital system.

Digital is not Binary. It is represented numericaly in Binary but is not intrinsically Binary in nature. Digital is the quantised representation of an analogue system. It doesn't matter how many quantisation "steps" you have it remains a digital system. A Binary sytem would be a Digital system with only two states, however CD is another Digital system, but it has 65,534 states. The modern Telephone network is also Digital, this time comprising 255 states.

Analogue is by definition infinitely variable, (again with the caveat of not living in the quantum world).

[sinbad]

It always strikes me as a tad ironic when someone claims a thread is meaningless and bad for the forum etc etc by bumping it back to the top of the page.

In answer to the question: No. Still, I'm sure we (the large community) will find plenty wrong in whichever patch is finally released - we always do, so the idea of releasing an incomplete test patch of whatever kind, is not exactly "out there".

[wheel4hummer]

Analogue is by definition infinitely variable, (again with the caveat of not living in the quantum world).

Life is neither digital or analog. Life is, in my opinion, base 1. There's no on/off state, atoms just exist. Their positions can't be quantized, because the universe is relative. Position of atoms is just relative to other atoms. When an atom moves, it's just moving relative to every other atom. You can't really, in my opinion, create a grid of all the atoms that line up perfectly. Anyway, there's so many divisions of atoms below that. What's the smallest particle? Quarks?

Analog is basically a way of saying "digital with as high precision as nature will allow," I suppose. :tilt:

[Ger Roady]

What I referred to was the current segmented tire model, which isn't realistic either, since real tires are analog not digital.
Ok.We have digital tyres. Any chance to make them analog ? :schwitz::D

[Forbin]

...however CD is another Digital system, but it has 65,534 states. The modern Telephone network is also Digital, this time comprising 255 states.
Erm... no, not quite.

The maximum value achievable by an unsigned 16-bit system is 65,535. However, 0 is still state, so there are 65,536 possible states.

Likewise with an unsigned 8-bit system. Max value is 255, number of states is 256.

[e.M]

about the reports. devs shouldnt do anymore but they could tell which things are completed from the last report

[Kristi]

......nothing.....

[J@tko]

My old boss used to say, "If someone moans to you, always treat it as a compliment."

What he was saying was those who moan/complain have at least taken the time to say something, that they care about your company or product and want to support it, they will tell others about it.

The customers who say nothing are the ones who never come back and they will say bad things about it in private.
:nod:

People only complain because:

a) They're morons who go ZOMG I WANT MOAR CONTENT?!/1/1?1?
or
b) They actually care about LFS and don't want it to go "down the drain".

[xaotik]

Digital would be Hot or cold.

What you are describing is binary (two) options but not the definition of a digital system.

[danthebangerboy]

I can't believe that we have been running on anologue tyres all this time, will there be a mandatory upgrade to digital tyres i wonder? :D

[Ger Roady]

What you are describing is binary (two) options but not the definition of a digital system.

No, it is Dual :really:

[Sir moi 407]

:nod:

People only complain because:

A) they're morons who go zomg i want moar content?!/1/1?1?
Or
b) they actually care about lfs and don't want it to go "down the drain".

ZOMG I WANT MOAR CONTENT!!!

sorry