A solution for the FXR and XRR 'slowness'

[Primoz]

A lot of people are saying that the XRR is the 'step on the gas pedal and wait and wait and mybe till the next lap, the boost will come on' car. FXR is also turbocharged but has it's own, unique problems. One being the AWD transmission - power loss and tyre eating :)

I haven't searched, i haven't seen the improvement suggestions thread, i just got this idea on the bus on my way to school (typing this at my computer class), so if it was suggested, tell me to put my flamesuit on.

Anyway, the suggestion? Missfiring system. Many of you know this, for those who don't, it's used on WRC cars and is the thing that makes the 'BANG BANG' when the drivers lift of the gas pedal. What it does is pump some gas into the engine but the sparkplug doesn't ignite it. When it reaches the exhaust, it explodes because the exhaust is VERY hot. This then spins the turbo and once you press the gas pedal, hey presto, instant boost!

What do you guys think? Would be nice to be implemented and would probably help the XRR. Lately it has been used in the JGTC too, so it's not limited just to WRC. Would be nice if we also had backfires :scratchch :trampolin

EDIT:Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lag)

[FPVaaron]

Could work.

[MadCatX]

Sweet, it is based on real car tech, it is working, IT WILL HELP! I noticed that some overtaking with FZR are ititiated by a quick turn exit. Because of the acceleration delay of XRR and FXR is properly driven FZR faster on the exit and can overtake well if the exit of the turn leads to the longer straight.

Got the point, Primoz:thumb:

[Bob Smith]

A nice idea. The FXR is very nice on tyres though, don't know what you're on about there - just need to change the torque split from the default value a bit.

[Primoz]

Bob i had R3s in front in a 10 lap race at Kyoto long and i just abrely made it through. I would not have made another lap :) I have to mention that i was using Flotch's setup though :D

[loopingz]

Just to add that the bangbang system only work when the engine is hot, there is a switch most of the time to wait the engine temperature and then set it on...

[nmanley]

Bob i had R3s in front in a 10 lap race at Kyoto long and i just abrely made it through. I would not have made another lap :) I have to mention that i was using Flotch's setup though :D
You can't take ANY setup from a hot lap and get 10 laps with it unless you drive a smooth 10 sec a laps slower pace. Torque split, camber, tire pressures, track bar ... etc .. all that will need tweaking to get an endurance setup. :thumb:

[Primoz]

I should also mention i have NO idea how to tweak the setup.. So yeah :)

BTW, back on topic :)

[Shotglass]

gtrs are endurance cars ... no way anybody would ever put a turbo system thats prone to destroy itself in any car thats supposed to do 24h races

[Quietus]

Supercharger? :shrug:

[Psycho Evangelion]

Supercharger? :shrug:

parasitic loss.

Plus the idea of supercharged 4 cylinders just makes me laugh.

[EeekiE]

Shut it you! :really:

Supercharged 4 cylinders are excellent! I'd love to see my Polo G40 in there. :nod:

You're all talking about this car as if it had a turbo lag problem. It's just coded that way, it would be much simpler for them to model turbo boost a bit better, or just reduce it and say they fitted a smaller turbo lol. Alot easier than programming an ALS.

I think the lag is all part of it though, that's the challenge, to keep it on boost. That means left foot braking and some trick foot and gear work.

[Quietus]

It's still my favorite of the GTR's even with the lag, just because I grew up on the GT, then GT turbo.

Bi-turbo? :shrug:

[Cropsy]

The FXR is too nice on it's tyres! While I was practicing for the 3hour race of Aston Historic I had a problem with the tyres, but it wasn't that they were getting too hot, it was that they were getting too cold! Aslong as you have the right setting for them they can last much longer than the xrr & fzr.

[5th Earth]

parasitic loss.

Plus the idea of supercharged 4 cylinders just makes me laugh.

Actually it makes MORE sense to me than turbocharged 4-bangers. The classic high-performance 4 cylinder engine is known for terrible low-speed torque and a very narrow powerband. Supercharger=more low end torque and wider powerband. To me, it's the logical choice--no more worrying about falling off boost and accelerating like a slug. Sure, peak power would be lower than a turbo, but a broad powerband would be great for corner exits--with AWD, the FXR is already best equipped for early-acceleration driving styles. Imagine the FXR with the FZR's engine--that's what you'd get.

Of course, what would be really great is a twincharger system so at high speed the supercharger drops out and an enormous turbo takes over. Best of both worlds, Lancia's later Group B rally cars used this with great success. But they're the only people in racing history to pull it off--the only other twincharger I've heard of actually being used in a car was an aftermarket modification for the early Toyota MR2, and it was supposed to be almost impossible to tune.

[Bob Smith]

Lots of (well, some) 1930s era cars used turbosupercharging, as they called it back then. Other than that I have no idea how they worked or how successful they were.

[P5YcHoM4N]

Actually it makes MORE sense to me than turbocharged 4-bangers. The classic high-performance 4 cylinder engine is known for terrible low-speed torque and a very narrow powerband. Supercharger=more low end torque and wider powerband. To me, it's the logical choice--no more worrying about falling off boost and accelerating like a slug. Sure, peak power would be lower than a turbo, but a broad powerband would be great for corner exits--with AWD, the FXR is already best equipped for early-acceleration driving styles. Imagine the FXR with the FZR's engine--that's what you'd get.

Of course, what would be really great is a twincharger system so at high speed the supercharger drops out and an enormous turbo takes over. Best of both worlds, Lancia's later Group B rally cars used this with great success. But they're the only people in racing history to pull it off--the only other twincharger I've heard of actually being used in a car was an aftermarket modification for the early Toyota MR2, and it was supposed to be almost impossible to tune.
I once read on a forum many years ago (2 or 3), about a mod a guy was doing to an Evo, which was a turbo so damn big he needed a super just to spool it up. He completed it, and ment to have worked very well, but I have no idea about any other information on it in more detail then that.

[Huru-aito]

I once read on a forum many years ago (2 or 3), about a mod a guy was doing to an Evo, which was a turbo so damn big he needed a super just to spool it up.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=127361&page=1&pp=15 ? :)

Twincharging has been tried out in the past but controlling which one was creating the boost was too complex, or at least that's what I've read. Lancia's S4 Group B rallycar had a system too, and the drivers loved it's instant response whatever rpm you had. The latest attempt on twincharging (that I know of) by a car manufacturer is the VW 1.4 engine used in Golf GT. I guess they have got things working relatively cheap if they can afford using the technique in a production car..

AFAIK the big GTRs in LFS are meant to mimic JGTC racing, and like it has been said those cars have antilag systems. Albeit Toyota used NA V8s in their Supras instead of the inline 4 and the NSXs are back to NA after trying out the turbocharged way (IIRC). Instead of having trick tech in the current specs, I'd like to see XRR and FXR engines changed to something that better matches todays engines.

[ajp71]

Lots of (well, some) 1930s era cars used turbosupercharging, as they called it back then. Other than that I have no idea how they worked or how successful they were.

We need an ERA in LFS :)

[Bob Smith]

Need superchargers first. :)

Oh that would be good. :D

[evans]

Oooor...

we could slap some NOS on the two cars and give the guys a push-to-pass button? Just like they have in Champ Car, where people can't drive.

Fo' shizzle :pillepall

Anyway, back to the seriousness of being serious. Volkswagen developed a new engine boost technology some time last year called TSI. It's a combined supercharger and turbo (if I'm understanding this correctly) which gives you all the pros of both, without any of the cons like turbolag, lack of torque etc.
Another plus is brilliant fuel consumption.
You can read about the technology here: http://www.volkswagen.com/vwcms_publish/vwcms/master_public/virtualmaster/en2/erlebnis/technical_glossary/tsi/start.html

I don't know if it would work in GTR cars like the XRR and the FXR, but it's definitely worth a look.

[5th Earth]

Lots of (well, some) 1930s era cars used turbosupercharging, as they called it back then. Other than that I have no idea how they worked or how successful they were.

A common misconception--a turbosupercharger is just what we call a turbocharger today. See, the supercharger was invented first. When the turbocharger was invented, it was seen as just a new kind of supercharger, a turbine-driven supercharger as opposed to a belt-driven supercharger. This was shortened to turbo-supercharger, and eventually just to turbocharger.

Some of the turbosupercharged WWII fighter engines did in fact use a supercharger as well as an exhaust-driven turbocharger. Many of the supercharged aircraft engines had the supercharger built into the engine block and attached directly to the crankshaft, so instead of redesigning the engine to remove the supercharger, they just slapped a turbo on the end of it and let both run all the time.

It's hard to find actual numbers on the pressures they used, but at least one supercharged-only aircraft engine I've found data for ran at 35 PSI boost with water-methanol injection for anti-detonation. (Allison V1710 engine, total 2,250 HP war emergency power, claimed modern race-modified up to 4,000 HP). I've seen estimates of engines of this power level using something like 400 HP just to drive the supercharger.

[Foliage]

If you get minimechanik change the 'time to rev' to a smaller value. If you set it to .00001 the turbo spools up almost instantly giving crazy wheelspin without changing anything else.

[Hatemaker]

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=127361&page=1&pp=15 ? :)

...Albeit Toyota used NA V8s in their Supras instead of the inline 6...


Sorry, but the Supras that I've seen (and they've been many) have all been 6 cylinders, and I've seen one V8 (besides in JGTC).

[faster111]

i love to see a backfire on cars with fire coming out of the back of the car and the sound bang.

[wheel4hummer]

It is a very interesting idea to use a supercharger to spool up a turbo. Maybe such a system should be implemented in the FXR and XRR? The supercharger would compress the air to about 4psi, and then the air would go into the turbocharger, which would compress it to 24psi. When you press on the gas, the supercharger would be forcing the turbo to spin! There would definitely need to be a bypass valve between the supercharger and turbocharger, because a supercharger reduces the engine braking since it is constantly compressing air.

[LFSn00b]

It is a very interesting idea to use a supercharger to spool up a turbo. Maybe such a system should be implemented in the FXR and XRR? The supercharger would compress the air to about 4psi, and then the air would go into the turbocharger, which would compress it to 24psi. When you press on the gas, the supercharger would be forcing the turbo to spin! There would definitely need to be a bypass valve between the supercharger and turbocharger, because a supercharger reduces the engine braking since it is constantly compressing air.+1 :)

[evilgeek]

gtrs are endurance cars ... no way anybody would ever put a turbo system thats prone to destroy itself in any car thats supposed to do 24h races

um, porsche 944 turbo?

they always blow fire out the exhaust when downshifting, and aren't particularly known for blowing up, are they?

[MAGGOT]

gtrs are endurance cars ... no way anybody would ever put a turbo system thats prone to destroy itself in any car thats supposed to do 24h races

Uhm... dude, most LMP cars have turbo chargers installed. I don't know about GT1 and GT2 (or P2 for that matter) but many of the P1 cars have turbo chargers; the Audi R8, for instance, and I never recall Audi having a problem with their turbo system in any race it was run in.

@Faster111 - Was that bump necessary? You necro'd an old thread to say you like fire and loud bangs? And you wonder why you don't get the respect you want. Stop doing things like that.

[faster111]

Uhm... dude, most LMP cars have turbo chargers installed. I don't know about GT1 and GT2 (or P2 for that matter) but many of the P1 cars have turbo chargers; the Audi R8, for instance, and I never recall Audi having a problem with their turbo system in any race it was run in.

@Faster111 - Was that bump necessary? You necro'd an old thread to say you like fire and loud bangs? And you wonder why you don't get the respect you want. Stop doing things like that. well its better then makeing a new topic and wasting forum space and i also did i search but could int find anything.

[srdsprinter]

Uhm... dude, most LMP cars have turbo chargers installed. I don't know about GT1 and GT2 (or P2 for that matter) but many of the P1 cars have turbo chargers; the Audi R8, for instance, and I never recall Audi having a problem with their turbo system in any race it was run in.

@Faster111 - Was that bump necessary? You necro'd an old thread to say you like fire and loud bangs? And you wonder why you don't get the respect you want. Stop doing things like that.
He meant the anti-lag would cause troubles in endurance racing.

I think there will always be this problem, look at GT racing now. In the GT3 part of the 12h of sebring, there were almost all GT3 911's with just the odd Ferrari here and there. That's the way it is in the game as well. I just don't think its possible to "even" the GTR cars out. You can come close, but it just isn't gonna happen. You can falsely make the others easier to drive, but then you're negating the realism derived from the physics. We don't want that. The way it is now, I just have an automatic respect for the non-fzr's out there, especially who get quick with them.

[Gimpster]

Well all I can say is if you are having power lag in the turbo charged GTR cars or eating tires in any of them you are not driving the cars right. There are some very fast people in the XRR and FXR and I have seem them walk away from the FZR like its standing still.

Yes there is a delay between pressing the pedal and making power in the FXR and XRR but all that really means is you can get on the throttle sooner then the FZR. If you know there is a 0.5 sec depay before the turbo spins up then start applying throttle before you reatch the apex. The low power delay will allow you be be on the gas sooner and be making power the moment the car is ready for more power.

Each car is unique, learn to use its querks to your advantage and the other cars as well.

[MAGGOT]

well its better then makeing a new topic and wasting forum space and i also did i search but could int find anything.

That doesn't mean you are allowed to post inane junk.

...and I have seem them walk away from the FZR like its standing still.

That's because it's quicker to walk than it is to wait for the turbo to spool up:razz::D

Honestly, though, I haven't had much problem with any of the three. I don't like the way the FZR handles, but I like the other two so I drive them instead. Yea the XRR has a little lag; that's just another little challenge to overcome. I don't really notice the lag all that much anyways.

[Blackout]

What the hell is with these crappy bump the thread post these days!

[Huru-aito]

What the hell is with these crappy bump the thread post these days!

Must be the heat.

[anbiddulph]

Must be the heat.
you kinda just owned yourself then, that post was over a year ago...



IMO its so people dont get flammed by posting new threads instead of searching (its a lose - lose situation this forum....)

[Huru-aito]

you kinda just owned yourself then, that post was over a year ago...

Or maybe it was deliberate?

[LFSn00b]

Or maybe it was deliberate?
Oh, I see what you did there

[Mp3 Astra]

Ok guys, see you in a year for another controversial bump!

[bunder9999]

XRR is the 'step on the gas pedal and wait and wait and maybe till the next lap, the boost will come on' car.

so build boost before you launch? :scratchch

[SidiousX]

A lot of people are saying that the XRR is the 'step on the gas pedal and wait and wait and mybe till the next lap, the boost will come on' car. FXR is also turbocharged but has it's own, unique problems. One being the AWD transmission - power loss and tyre eating :)

I haven't searched, i haven't seen the improvement suggestions thread, i just got this idea on the bus on my way to school (typing this at my computer class), so if it was suggested, tell me to put my flamesuit on.

Anyway, the suggestion? Missfiring system. Many of you know this, for those who don't, it's used on WRC cars and is the thing that makes the 'BANG BANG' when the drivers lift of the gas pedal. What it does is pump some gas into the engine but the sparkplug doesn't ignite it. When it reaches the exhaust, it explodes because the exhaust is VERY hot. This then spins the turbo and once you press the gas pedal, hey presto, instant boost!

What do you guys think? Would be nice to be implemented and would probably help the XRR. Lately it has been used in the JGTC too, so it's not limited just to WRC. Would be nice if we also had backfires :scratchch :trampolin

EDIT:Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lag)

Aren't anti-lags used to keep the turbo spooling while you take your foot off the gas(which you don't do in XRR/FXR) to shift? Seems pointless to me...

[MAGGOT]

Or maybe it was deliberate?

You crafty git. ;)

[CasseBent]

see you next year Huru, same place aight?

[ANAMENOONEHAD]

the worst thing about the xrr is the start line. you can start pole and if there is a fxr or a fzr behind you ...youll lose your position maybe 2 or 3. it is absolutley horrid off the line. ive treid everything watching where the turbo is i usually start off with -2..-3 turbo active but it jsut doesnt grab like the other cars you can go basically flat out xrr takes finesse and its still slower :(

[AstroBoy]

I was going to suggest being less of a fail driver, then they aren't so slow. Just depends on the driver and the quality of the field sometimes.

[UnknownMaster21]

Well, I think it is okay as now about FXO GTR and XR GTR. If there is more GTR or TCC or any of other Racing turbo cars, then I would say it would work.


about features of cars, XR GTR and FXO GTR are not that bad:


..........................Start.......Speed....Tur ning Speed
FXO GTR...4WD..Fastest.......Slow...........Fastest
XR GTR......FR......Slow........Medium..........Fast
FZ50 GTR...RR......Fast........Fastest..........Fast

IMO, I think this fits nicely, of course, This is my testing for these or maybe I just can handle them differently, I got fastest speed with FXO GTR in Kyoto Ring Long, nice to handle that car there :)

[Bluebird B B]

It is a very interesting idea to use a supercharger to spool up a turbo. Maybe such a system should be implemented in the FXR and XRR? The supercharger would compress the air to about 4psi, and then the air would go into the turbocharger, which would compress it to 24psi. When you press on the gas, the supercharger would be forcing the turbo to spin! There would definitely need to be a bypass valve between the supercharger and turbocharger, because a supercharger reduces the engine braking since it is constantly compressing air.

huh?
Superchargers blowing air directly into a supercharger is pointless, its an much better idea to blow this extra air into the engine which can use it to generate extra power and lots of extra air-volume(exhaust..) to spool the turbocharger even better up and at the same time generating nice low-end torgue for the driver.

There are irl cars with have a small supercharger and a turbocharger. The supercharger is used when the engine is running at low revs. As soon as the rev get over a certain point the turbocharger takes over smoothly. At certain point, the small supercharger will be too small to be of any use. At that point the ecu will bypass the supercharger(electronicaly controlled valves in airintake) and all the work for blowing extra air into the engine is done from that point by the turbocharger.

VW golf 1.4 tfsi (GT) for example is using such system and it works very well. Performance is comparable to a 2.5 liter v6. Fuel usage comparable to an modern 1.8 4 cylinder at cruising speed. Since power essentially comes from burning fuel.. At full throttle the fuel usage will be nearly as high as the fuel usage of a 2.5 v6 at full throttle.

[ProDemoDrifter]

Of course, what would be really great is a twincharger system so at high speed the supercharger drops out and an enormous turbo takes over. Best of both worlds, Lancia's later Group B rally cars used this with great success. But they're the only people in racing history to pull it off--the only other twincharger I've heard of actually being used in a car was an aftermarket modification for the early Toyota MR2, and it was supposed to be almost impossible to tune.
Have you a heard of an old model of nissan micra(or march,whatever)
which was called superturbo??It was a combination in 1.0L engine of a supercharger with a turbocharger.It worked pretty well and it had power at all rpms.Try searching for it you might find it

Or here if your bored to search :thumb:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nissan+micra+superturbo

[Huru-aito]

see you next year Huru, same place aight?

*whistles*

[Inouva]

Now i understand why the fzr is faster that xrr in general.

So +1 to the op idea.

[cargame.nl]

Although it's four years old :D

[G!NhO]

Although it's four years old :D

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/25567403.png

[bunder9999]

i remember this thread...

no idea why i didn't say this before, but the FZ5 isn't in the same class as the XRT/FXO, so i'm not sure why people expect that the FZR should be in the same class as the XRR/FXR. anyways, that aside, maybe if they added a new car to meet the FZR's standards, it wouldn't matter so much. :shrug:

[Inouva]

i remember this thread...

no idea why i didn't say this before, but the FZ5 isn't in the same class as the XRT/FXO, so i'm not sure why people expect that the FZR should be in the same class as the XRR/FXR. anyways, that aside, maybe if they added a new car to meet the FZR's standards, it wouldn't matter so much. :shrug:

Well, xrr/fxr is the same class as fzr, why?, cuz they are the only 3 big gtr on lfs, so they should be the same class, and the spec is the same, the diff is the turbo in fxr/xrr and the 4WD of FXR.

Now, if xrr/fxr are not in the same class of fzr, should be change to gtr2 or gt3 or something ( The fzr ).

BTW, didnt see the th date... :shy::shy:

[hp999]

FXR and XRR need a seperate class of their own.

FXR - IHNPINWOT - I have no power in corners without the turbo

XRR - IMTIVEGTMWAB - I'm thinking I've got too much wheelspin at the back

Those are my thoughts.^^

Well,but lets be honest,FXR and XRR are like UFR and XFR - some are faster on one tracks,others are faster on other tracks.

Like BL1 - FZR is the fastest,FXR following and XRR being the last.
and AS3 - FZR being the fastest,XRR following and FXR being the last.

[Inouva]

FXR and XRR need a seperate class of their own.

FXR - IHNPINCWOT - I have no power in corners without the turbo

Fixed. you mised a letter

[logitekg25]

old, but still +1 :D

[pik_d]

Now where's a Bawbag post so I can quote his sig...

[aobrien]

Also known as Anti Lag (ALS).. Keeps the turbo spinning to improve acceleration which would be a big help for XRR and XRR. Yes for me.

[ACCAkut]

An antilag system is not really realistic for roadracing cars. Variable valve timing, VGT turbos, twinturbos and an overhaul of the turbo physics would be better an more realistic.

btw, the only LMPs with turbos nowerdays are the Diesels and the Mazda MZ-R (http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/technology/258149/mazda-mzr-r-lmp2.html). The latter is surprisingly close to the XRRs specs(2 litre 500hp, ~8000rpm redline)