What is, What has Happened

[Fordman]

Good Evening One and All,

Ok, havent been about for some time, as you think, but like to look back here and now, and just keep an eye on things so to keep in the loop.

One thing I have noticed, is the amount of "old Skool" drivers that appear to not be enjoying LFS like it used to be. So if Scawen and Co are making it more realistic, so why are so many of us moaning, well a question never answered.

Also, this insim, ok good idea on paper and for "leagues" but for your every day racing, well as good as a chocolate teapot.

I posted a thread earlier, just showing what sort of fun we used to have in S1, way before Insim, way for Rules, way before regs, way before you must race out way, etc etc, what on earth has happened to a game, 6-7 yrs ago had everything, and now is so focused on realism, its taking the fun away from the whole concept?

If you want realism, then get in a real car, like Scawen did, and drive it, or stop competiong for a accolade that is not in reach until its final ( the game I mean ) and we are years away yet.

I am all for realism, pit stops, fuel stops, damage, brake fade, etc etc, but being made to use a setup that suits the administrator, he is not god, he doesn't control setups "in real life" if you want to go that far, then we need an out lap to pick up rubber so our car is not under weight or under height. You cannot have without the other.

I voice this because ok major old skool me, but like to just "plug and play" when and if I can, and although LFS used to cater for us oldies, it no longer has that, I have to resort to my Xbox :( for a giggle.

Bring back the Old No Rules Server :)

Well thats it really, just liked to GMHO, so there :)

Happy Xmas to one and all, and please remember this....You always respect your elders HA HA HA

[rc10racer]

The only reason you "oldes" and me complain is because it's the same content over and over again, the lack of clean races are really down aswell, i still don't think the new tyre model will help that much aswell.

Fresh cars/tracks (not new track configs) will help alot because it's been almost the same stuff since i joined back in Aug 2005, but i really started to get sick of the same stuff over and over again around mid 2008, only really stayed with lfs is because all the people who i have got to know over the past years.

Been thinking of looking more into iRacing but it's goes against what i don't believe in gaming is p2p or payable content, like everything they release you have to buy which i really hate.

Anyway rank over, oh btw What i don't get is how are they making money from lfs without any new content, added Wed, July 2nd, 2008 16:20 >Patch Z..... that's the last time we got something new visual, content or physics wise so don't get your hopes up for a xmas patch this month.

[Bft-Master]

Awesomelingly nice patches this year :thumb:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Hey Sean, interesting post.

To be honest I find LFS moving away from being a raw sim into something that provides a lot of useless features. I realize and hope that will change with the tire physics modifications, but if you look at the number of "simple" things which could have been implemented by now compared to the number of useless shit that's been worked on (subjectively speaking of course; I concede before you begin) it's making this a limp sim.

Nuno had this right ages ago and I didn't beleive him because I wasn't privy to the inside scoop - LFS really had become pussy 4 years ago. It started as the most hardcore, realistic, no holds barred sim that was made at the time and it attracted most of the old timers here for that reason. Since then it has stagnated into the most tragic, potential filled dry orgasm of a sim ever made and it's a waste of all that time.

This allowed iRacing to limp along with a millions budget and toy around for a few years before they're about to get serious and blow everything to hell and back. Odd to see the rocket I once cheered for degenerate into a firecracker and fizzle into a few patches of a track here, a transmisson sim added more than a year earlier, and blah - who really cares what happens on a yearly scale. I used to visit here on a daily basis knowing there was a chance of some interesting shit happening, those days have long passed.

LFS will always have the niche of bang for the buck - at least for the next couple of years. After that, it's all grey and a dream may have taken on the form of a pipe by that time.

MSN me if you wish to yatter further, it's good to hear from you again :)


PS: On a better note, I get to take my wife to see Muse in March :D

[Matrixi]

Crudely, but very well put BBT. :)

The hype around the new tire physics is building up a lot though, I hope they'll be as good as expected.

[farcar]

I have big hopes for the next patch, but it will be LFS's last chance.
It needs to be a cracker, and things need to develop at a consistent pace from then on or I think it's doomed. It doesn't need to be developed fast, just faster than the last 2 so years.

Having said that, I disagree with the OP's point that the move towards realism is it's downfall. If anything, realism will be it's saviour.

[Becky Rose]

PS: On a better note, I get to take my wife to see Muse in March :D
I might be seeing them myself around that time, Silvsersun Pickups are playing support - I saw them recently supporting Placebo and they are absolutely phenomenal. You havn't lived until you've heard Lazy Eye played live. Muse to me is ok and all sounds the same - but the misses likes them, so I might be going just for the support :D

One thing I have noticed, is the amount of "old Skool" drivers that appear to not be enjoying LFS like it used to be
I don't think anything has really changed. The old skool of drivers is still around and still being social with each other but not really racing, but this is what they always did.

Personally I was never very good at LFS, I linger around the forums and go to the meets and when I get a chance I do some coding for my next LFS project. I always did this, only I used to have my priorities in life mixed up and coded way more than I should have, but nothing changed.

I see the old crowd still loitering around the forum, still posting and still taking part. They check the forums less frequently, but they're still there and waiting for something new and fresh. They'll come along when there's some new content, play it a while, then disapear again when they're bored again.

LFS is like a life membership, once you have a licence you are always welcome back - and us oldies will keep on coming back for as long as new patches and content keep us coming back.

It's not up to LFS to stay fresh: It can't hope to do that without massively increasing the number of staff it employs; what LFS needs to do is never die, and for as long as new stuff does come the old players will return.

It's true we've had a very long dry spell, the longest that I personally have known since I joined (around patch P/Q time I believe), but that does not meen the sim has gone off course, it just meens that i'm off doing other things for a bit.

As for my own project things would move a lot faster if I become single again - but i'd like for that not to happen for a bit :)

[obsolum]

You (Fordman) have posted a similar thread a while back. I have to ask: what's stopping you from setting up a server the way you want for all the people you believe miss the "good old days"? :shrug: I don't agree that the aim for realism has taken the fun out of LFS and also I think there's plenty of "plug n play" servers around. You make it sound as if all servers now have some fancy insim app running that you don't enjoy or whatever, but that's not the case. You can still just hop on any of the majority of the servers and drive. Sounds to me like you're just being melancholic for the sake of it; it's not the game that has changed in such a way that you don't enjoy it anymore, it's you who's changed.

Just my two cents.

[Funnybear]

Well put Becky. Couldn't really say it fairer than that.

Although I do see both sides of the camp. But my take on it is that I've paid for what i've got already. And by god has it given back. You don't have a car manufacturer coming back and constantly bolting extra bits on to your pride and joy just because they've had a breakthrough in the workshop, no, they wait and bolt it onto the next model so it's shinier and newer and faster and sexier than the previous model so you'll come back and spend the money all over again on what is essentially an identical car.

From a commercial viewpoint, we've payed, we play. We don't subscribe, there is no after market agreement that Scavier will constantly drip feed updates and improvements. LFS is very much a WIP, always has been and will be for a while yet. We're not dealing with a large multi-national rehashing old code and bolting on pretty effects, we're talking a father, a husband, a regular bloke trying to pay the bills with as many projects as he can. He's just some dude with a dream that I subscribe too. And when his dream is ready, and not a moment before, he will release it to the world.

And 'lo, for they will bow down and castrate themselves at his feet.
And they will call him, Scavier. The saviour of on-line sim racing. Ahmen.






I think I've overdosed on coffee this morning.

[hyntty]

snip


^^ agree with the above.

TBH the story on a whole is a load of bollocks. Insim hasn't ruinmed anything since it doesn't do anything. Plus, this is if you actually bother to read instructions which 90% of people don't do, there are very simple welcome messages which tell you how to turn the thing off or at least out of sight.

Oldschool drivers are either truly bored with lfs after no development during the past lifetime, OR they weren't decent racers to begin with and are now fed up with the decent driving standards normal people expect from a racetrack and do not like the fact that they can't ram everyone out of their way.

On a more serious note (for a change), something has gone wrong with the mentality. Racing is more biased on the league side while pickup doesn't exist anymore. At least I couldn't care a toss about the cruise servers which are always on top of the connections list and the occupied racing servers (if you can refer to them in the plural form) are of the same car/track combo week after week, and the car choices aren't exactly attractive.

[JeffR]

LFS started as the most hardcore, realistic, no holds barred sim that was made at the time.Actually the physics of S1 was quite flawed, but the slowness of most of the cars back then masked the issues, except for the LX6. GPL and NR2003 had better physics than S1. I had the impression that early versions of LFS had little input from the real world, based on things like a vicous rear end differential, something I don't think was ever done with any real car (although some 4WD vehicles use viscous coupling between the front and rear driveshafts). The GTR like all or nothing traction of the tire physics was another issues, but all of these issues were mostly fixed back with S2 version V.

As far as the old timers not playing LFS as much, it's because they are old timers. Some of us have been playing racing games for over a decade now, and the newness factor is gone, we're aging, and our interests change.

[danowat]

Snip...

Ahhh, the annual "what happened to all the good ol drivers from days of yore" post from Fordie, is it that time of year already :D

Its the same reason you've posted before mate.

LFS was a little niche years ago, and as such, the community feeling was closer knit.

As more and more people have gotten on board, the community has diluted.

Bottomline, it will never get back to how it was "when all this was just fields", thats progress for you.

I haven't played LFS in ages, and have no desire to do so.

[Danke]

There are hundreds of servers running with no insim apps at all. The vast majority of them are empty. The reason I race at places like Race Center are because the insim apps they run tend to filter out people who can't or won't race cleanly.

You could have an admin or team of admins online 24/7 kicking people for driving like idiots, but that's a huge time commitment.

[Sir moi 407]

The only thing LFS needs: the patch to come out. :shrug:

[GianniC]

The only reason you "oldes" and me complain is because it's the same content over and over again, the lack of clean races are really down aswell, i still don't think the new tyre model will help that much aswell.

Fresh cars/tracks (not new track configs) will help alot because it's been almost the same stuff since i joined back in Aug 2005, but i really started to get sick of the same stuff over and over again around mid 2008, only really stayed with lfs is because all the people who i have got to know over the past years.

Been thinking of looking more into iRacing but it's goes against what i don't believe in gaming is p2p or payable content, like everything they release you have to buy which i really hate.

Anyway rank over, oh btw What i don't get is how are they making money from lfs without any new content, added Wed, July 2nd, 2008 16:20 >Patch Z..... that's the last time we got something new visual, content or physics wise so don't get your hopes up for a xmas patch this month.

LFS really had become pussy 4 years ago. It started as the most hardcore, realistic, no holds barred sim that was made at the time and it attracted most of the old timers here for that reason.

This.

And on top of that; the most obvious stuff not being changed. With all due respect, but I don't give a damn about dashboard lights. Fix the damage model for example, thàt is important. Not how realistic one or another dashboard light looks*.

However, I disagree about the insim part with you Fordie. I'd even say it improved general racing or league racing. After all, we're here for a racesim.

* This is just one comparison example, many other can be found, it all comes down to: work on the game content, not the rice graphics.

[JO53PHS]

You could have an admin or team of admins online 24/7 kicking people for driving like idiots, but that's a huge time commitment.

We managed near to that earlier this year on the NDR Public Racing Server... At least one admin was present for most of the day, and any wreckers would be dealt with a 999 ban, with warnings/kicks to people driving like prats.

This combined with shouting at people to be careful, brake in time, and give room at Turn 1 worked actually quite well. Several times we got through T1 completely incident free. :tilt:

But then we all decided to go and get a life :schwitz:

[Danke]

We managed near to that earlier this year on the NDR Public Racing Server... At least one admin was present for most of the day, and any wreckers would be dealt with a 999 ban, with warnings/kicks to people driving like prats.

This combined with shouting at people to be careful, brake in time, and give room at Turn 1 worked actually quite well. Several times we got through T1 completely incident free. :tilt:

But then we all decided to go and get a life :schwitz:

... and we appreciate your efforts! That was a great place to race. Certainly nobody can begrudge you getting a life and going outside once in a while.

You can't expect people to admin live forever for free. So we're left with automated idiot filters, i.e. insim apps. In my experience, LFS is the only sim where there's any kind of pickup racing happening. Iracing is apparently all pickup racing, and that's because their entire system is an automated idiot filter.

Maybe the need for these systems now is a statement on the player community, but there's not much anyone can do to change that.

[rafo_cardenas]

for me is the lack of new content which drives me down from being in LFS in a daily basis as I used to to in "the old times".

Up to the begining of S2 we used to get decent new content in a decent timeframe and kept everyone enthusiatic about the sim, but now not really the case ...a new car was announced with release date (if I remember correctly december 2008?) and then for almost two year we got only patches nothing really substancial to play with ...this is a game at the end of the day and must be fun... for me part of the fun was the regular new content.

There is probably a trillion reasons for the lack of frequent new development, and might all be right, but my feeling is the above ...my opinion :shrug:

[JohnPenn]

I miss ramming other drivers off the track as well , trying a new sim ATM where I can ram with impunity.

Hows it going Sidi you old wrecker

[Seb66]

If you want realism, then get in a real car, like Scawen did, and drive it, or stop competiong for a accolade that is not in reach until its final ( the game I mean ) and we are years away yet.

You realize that most of us are here because we can't afford to do that? This is a SIM after all, and is meant to be as real as possible. If you don't want realism go play NFS online:thumb:.

[AndroidXP]

I miss ramming other drivers off the track as well , trying a new sim ATM where I can ram with impunity.
Ahh yes, the good old times of the Clean Rammers Club. How I miss the times where everyone followed the proper ramming regulations :(

[boosterfire]

Also, this insim, ok good idea on paper and for "leagues" but for your every day racing, well as good as a chocolate teapot.

Afaik, nobody is forced to use insim.

I posted a thread earlier, just showing what sort of fun we used to have in S1, way before Insim, way for Rules, way before regs, way before you must race out way, etc etc, what on earth has happened to a game, 6-7 yrs ago had everything, and now is so focused on realism, its taking the fun away from the whole concept?

Wait, what? Sure, S1 was fun, but to me, it was simply too different to compare. If you're seeking the kind of game that we had back then, then maybe you're just not that much into what LFS plans to be about. You cannot really arrive here and say: "well, screw this whole realism thing, let's make this thing entertaining instead!". Do you develop for NFS?

If you want realism, then get in a real car, like Scawen did, and drive it, [...]

Not everybody can afford to do this for real.

[...] or stop competiong for a accolade that is not in reach until its final ( the game I mean ) and we are years away yet.

Are you suggesting that any victory in LFS is currently void and nul as the game is not complete? Or even further, that any sentiment of accomplishment whatsoever (define accolade in the context) is flawed? As long as you have something to compare yourself to, and that you can compete against those things (or persons) in a fair context, then I see no reason why you couldn't get this accolade.

I am all for realism, pit stops, fuel stops, damage, brake fade, etc etc, but being made to use a setup that suits the administrator, he is not god, he doesn't control setups "in real life" if you want to go that far, then we need an out lap to pick up rubber so our car is not under weight or under height. You cannot have without the other.

Yes, but not everything is programmed at the same time, hence why the game is in development. Exercise some common sense: we know that the goal of LFS is to be a simulation... to be realistic. Do you think Scavier really don't care about, for instance, out laps and such? They probably do, but as Scawen stated himself a lot of times, he works at his pace, and has his priorities. If, when the game is complete, it still isn't realistic enough, then you may have a point.

I voice this because ok major old skool me, but like to just "plug and play" when and if I can, and although LFS used to cater for us oldies, it no longer has that, I have to resort to my Xbox :( for a giggle.

Bring back the Old No Rules Server :)


This specific problem, is, to me, concerning much more the players themselves than the game. The lack of plug and play servers to race on (say, jump in, and do some 5 laps no pressure race with 30 people online) is not due to what the game is, but rather to the fact that such servers have become pretty rare. The game doesn't make it impossible for such servers to exist.

[tmehlinger]

One thing I have noticed, is the amount of "old Skool" drivers that appear to not be enjoying LFS like it used to be. So if Scawen and Co are making it more realistic, so why are so many of us moaning, well a question never answered.


I didn't realize the number of people complaining about realism was in any way appreciable.


Also, this insim, ok good idea on paper and for "leagues" but for your every day racing, well as good as a chocolate teapot.


I'm going to guess that you don't really understand the scope of things you can accomplish with InSim. Not really surprising considering you think there are so many people "moaning" about realism. What I mean to say is you're completely out of touch.


I posted a thread earlier, just showing what sort of fun we used to have in S1, way before Insim, way for Rules, way before regs, way before you must race out way, etc etc, what on earth has happened to a game, 6-7 yrs ago had everything, and now is so focused on realism, its taking the fun away from the whole concept?


It's not taking away fun. You're a crusty old fart. You want Project Gotham and the dev team are making a racing simulator.


If you want realism, then get in a real car, like Scawen did, and drive it, or stop competiong for a accolade that is not in reach until its final ( the game I mean ) and we are years away yet.


I was going to accuse you of being delusional earlier, but I decided to save it for this snippet. You're delusional.


I am all for realism,


No you're not, you implied that you're party to the complaining about the dev team improving realism and you went on to whine about the days of yore before rules, regulations, and courteous driving.


pit stops, fuel stops, damage, brake fade, etc etc, but being made to use a setup that suits the administrator, he is not god, he doesn't control setups "in real life"


First, the administrator is god, if you're running on his server, you're running by his rules. If you don't like it, that's too bad. As for controlling setups, the administrator is analogous to the real-life steward... he checks to make sure your car doesn't contravene the regulations. In this particular case, your daily driver isn't allowed to have any race-bred modifications.


if you want to go that far, then we need an out lap to pick up rubber so our car is not under weight or under height. You cannot have without the other.


This is totally incoherent. I have no idea what you're trying to say. I'll just add that limited setups would prevent you from going underweight or too low anyway, so it doesn't really matter.


I voice this because ok major old skool me, but like to just "plug and play" when and if I can, and although LFS used to cater for us oldies, it no longer has that, I have to resort to my Xbox :( for a giggle.


"I have to resort to my Xbox." You're not resorting to your XBox, it just happens to be the best thing for you.


Bring back the Old No Rules Server :)


Run your own server.


Well thats it really, just liked to GMHO, so there :)

Happy Xmas to one and all, and please remember this....You always respect your elders HA HA HA

Feel free to stop drunk posting.

[NunoMike]

Honestly I think what is missing is some "Tournament" servers, where in one night we could drive a car type (TBO, GTR, SS, etc.) through 6 or 7 tracks in 4 laps races with the grid set by championship position.

The possibility to have every night a small championship would be very appealing to everybody: noobs and old-timers, addicted and casual, all that thing.

Unfortunatly, there are nowadays more DEMO servers than S1/S2 servers and the ones that exists are always looping the same car and track. You do 2 or 3 races and get bored, but there are no alternatives...

Maybe the server hosts could do something against this boredom with those small tournaments/championships at "arcade style".

[Dajmin]

It was a long and somewhat rambling post, but I think I get some of where he's coming from. Looking back at a less busy time is something that we all do, and be thankful you can because some people will never know any different to the now!

Motor City Online was the same way in beta. Racing was awesome, the community was brilliant, games were fun and everyone helped where they could. Then beta ended, the game went gold and more people piled in. And of course the whole community changed. Spammers were in, griefers and glitchers were in, a lot of it really went to pot. The game itself hadn't changed that much, but the atmosphere surrounding it had and that made it considerably less fun.

Times don't stop changing, that's the way of the world. People move on, things are developed, stuff gets patched. Sometimes you like it, sometimes you don't. If you don't, there's always an alternative out there.
I agree that sometimes drop-in servers go a little over the top with the InSim. Not everyone wants harassed with rules and points systems and stuff if you only want to play for a short time. Then again, nobody wants to end up getting hassled by wreckers if they happen to join the wrong server at the wrong time.

Welcome to the internet. Choice is near-endless but so is the supply of morons. If you're not enjoying it, the time has come to find something else.

I've not raced properly in months, but not because I don't want to - because I don't have a working wheel. I don't know if that makes me the right person to make this comment or so totally out of touch that it's just not funny. In fact, I've forgotten the point I was trying to make in the first place. Time to sign off.

[Gentlefoot]

My reason for only playing LFS one night in 3 months is not to do with the game. It's just that I have achieved what I wanted to achieve in sim racing and I no longer gain the satisfaction from it that I used to.

I think this is down to my experiences in sprint racing in a rather fast mk 2 golf and also some seat time in a 125cc 2-stroke 6-geared kart that has 40hp and weighs only 80kgs - now that really is a buzz!

Another reason is the way graphics have moved on. Even the old favourite GT Legends knocks spots off LFS graphics wise. And the next Gran Turismo is likely to look very impressive.

I really need to see a big jump forward in LFS graphics before I come back to the game more often.

Having said all that, for a racer that is just starting to play LFS there is a hell of a lot that can be learned in terms of racecraft and the process of setup improvement and testing. This knowledge really does transfer into the real world if said individual ever has the chance to compete in real life racing.

So in summary, LFS is still a fantastic learning tool and a great deal of fun for at least a year or two.

[danowat]

So in summary, LFS is still a fantastic learning tool and a great deal of fun for at least a year or two.

Very true, I do believe that LFS does have a certain "shelf life" with people.

[Vykos69]

Ahhh Fordie, I just love to read your rants once a year :) How you doin? :D Merry X-Mas to you all and may the Scirocco be with you :D

[Fordman]

You (Fordman) have posted a similar thread a while back. I have to ask: what's stopping you from setting up a server the way you want for all the people you believe miss the "good old days"? :shrug: I don't agree that the aim for realism has taken the fun out of LFS and also I think there's plenty of "plug n play" servers around. You make it sound as if all servers now have some fancy insim app running that you don't enjoy or whatever, but that's not the case. You can still just hop on any of the majority of the servers and drive. Sounds to me like you're just being melancholic for the sake of it; it's not the game that has changed in such a way that you don't enjoy it anymore, it's you who's changed.

Just my two cents.

Interesting post there. Maybe I have posted the "same" a while back, but maybe just to reiterate on what LFS "had" set out to be, and not what it "has" become. Also interesting use of word there "melancholic", used mostly in a physocology enviroment, and I take it your a physcologist of some degree ( something I am acutally studying at the moment, got bored of IT support so changing to child and human psychology. I know major change but started reading and really interested me ).

No I am not depressed or mentally unstable, as your insinuating, just taking the oppotunity to express one's opinion of how I feel something has changed.

Change is good, doesn't suit all, and suits others, but to be characterized as an unstable person is not one's choosen fortey.

Anyway enough of that, its just a matter of fact. LFS "used" to be pick up and drop as and when see fit and you all, as in a collective, all fitted in, no matter what car, track, combo, what ever we did, it worked. Now, a new Gen is on board, new rules, new regs new guidelines to follow, taking away the "fun" element from the sim racer. Now somebody else is making the choice's for us, we no longer or are being restricted through choice? Now do you see where I am going.

The strive for perfection has indeed for some for most of us has taking the FUN element out of almost realism in a simulated world. We all strive for perfect, that perfect laptime, that perfect corner, that perfect overtaking move, but we enjoyed doing it. I have the greatest pleasure in watching this game grow, improve, get better publicity and so much it is deserved, but along came with it, like most others, the "fun" removed.

I know, start a server, create your own, fine:

A > Give me the time of day to do this
B> Give me the money for a super fast server
C> Give me the broadband speed of T1 connections for pennies

List goes on and on.

Times change, so do people as in I have. I do check once in a while, just jump on one server, then another, and hope around like mad, just looking, and its all "rules rules rules" there is no freedom anymore.

I have "sped" read your comments, and well some are yay and some are nay, which is what I expected. The usual pop up and some of you never heard of "no offence intended" but unless you was there from day dot, I honestly don't think you don't have a comparison to compare to :shrug:

But hay what do I know, I am an old man with to much time on my hands, reading books and studying on how the brain works and sometimes, just sometimes was nice to have a release, nothing to brain taxing, and if somebody mentions NFS again as an altenative to LFS :x

But anyway, its the Holiday Season, so Happy Christmas, hope you all get the Scirocco you are waiting for and have fun filled break.

Fordie

PS - Joe, Already have a Scirocco, so no need for it to be with me, it already is :thumb:

PPS - Ok OK it's the wife's car, but hay, get to drive it...........when I have been a good boy :)

[George Kuyumji]

Been thinking of looking more into iRacing but it's goes against what i don't believe in gaming is p2p or payable content, like everything they release you have to buy which i really hate.


But why would you have to buy everything they release? There are 17 cars and 38 tracks. Surely dont need all of them. In a few years there will be 50+cars and over 100 tracks... not much point in owning everything iRacing releases.

[RMachucaA]

LFS was awesome 8 years ago (you read that right, i've been around this sim for that long)... and hit its peak of content\features around 2006-07.

Ever since then, not only did the lack of good quality noticeably better patches slow down drastically, but also the sim started growing bigger then the original LFS crowd could handle ie: more and more kids started playing, which leads to more wreckers (insert drifters here too) and the whole core of what made the LFS community fun started diluting with the raw sewage that is the common folk which is driven by the main stream mindless media\fads.

Since then, Scawen has been fighting an uphill battle, and loosing. Theres some admiration there for him, he's stuck it out this far, but i believe that this has become the nail that will seal the coffin. (has sealed the coffin in my situation, as much as i loved LFS i doubt i'll ever come back). He really should have expanded his team, at least have added one programmer/artist to the mix, it would be cutting development time right now by almost 1\2, which would have kept a lot of people a lot happier and involved.

Anyways, its not all his wrong doing... LFS just ended up attracting a different crowd then what us the original core community where. So some of us migrated, moved on, left LFS to those who dont know where its come from and all its accomplished.

[AcesHigh]

more and more kids started playing, which leads to more wreckers (insert drifters here too) and the whole core of what made the LFS community fun started diluting with the raw sewage that is the common folk which is driven by the main stream mindless media\fads.


Anyways, its not all his wrong doing... LFS just ended up attracting a different crowd then what us the original core community where. So some of us migrated, moved on, left LFS to those who dont know where its come from and all its accomplished.

Fail to see your point really... personally i like LFS for what it came from, and downloading the old versions like demo and s1 should be mandatory before you bash to much on the delevopers(this counts for those new users who crys about it).

So what if they had a peak around 06-07??? i noticed it aswell since i remember upgrading all the time at that point. But i dont really recall there being any changes as significant as now... sure the grip level was changed around that time but i still believe its undergoing more changes now that at that point...

They are also working on s3 contetn aswell at the moment, so i doubt they are slacking.

You also mention that more people has led to LFS sucking... its a lame excuse IMO, LFS only becomes as good as you make it and if you decide that it sucks because of drifters and more players then its your fault and not the devs.

Like said just get together and host a server or something?? and dont give me the broadband excuse cause its lame... ive played on severs my teammates hosted with 2-8mbit and we could be quite alot of people before it started to affect the gameplay.

[Electrik Kar]

Fordman
The usual pop up and some of you never heard of "no offence intended" but unless you was there from day dot, I honestly don't think you don't have a comparison to compare to :shrug:

The people currently playing LFS now are having a different experience to you though, so you can't speak for the enjoyment of these new people- I dare say they wouldn't be playing unless they were enjoying themselves. It's sad that some of the olides aren't getting out of LFS what they used to but you can't really expect time to stand still and community values to stay constant, especially if you and your friends have already for the most part abandoned the game. LFS has changed, the community has changed, but people are still having fun so I don't really see a problem. You could always try downloading an eariler version and rallying your mates to join a server, and live out the old days of glory. It's certainly possible to do that- but would you really want to?

[thisnameistaken]

I think with a bigger community you do lose something, the frequency of racing against your friends mostly. I can't judge what the product is like now because I haven't used it for ages (I probably would, were it not for a faulty accelerator pedal that I have no inclination to repair/replace).

It does seem like little progress has been made since 2006-ish. I'm sure lots of important things have happened but few of them have had any noticeable impact on the racing experience, so the sim feels like it isn't moving forward. And public servers are mostly given over to novelty activities rather than racing, which is a shame.

I suppose when you've got a small development team you've always got the problem of personal lives interrupting progress. It does seem to me that LFS has run out of steam a little bit.

[bbman]

Times change, so do people [...]

You recognize that, but you still feel the need to rant about it? Either you go with the times or you go away... I'm not saying all is good - I certainly am unsatisfied with some things here and/or see the potential and need for improvement - but desperately clinging on to "old times" never worked, and never will...

[sinbad]

It does seem to me that LFS has run out of steam a little bit.

Me too. What do we really have that we didn't have 2 or 3 years ago? I guess nothing more than a few "promises" ("promises" because they won't even commit to making a real promise), so let's call them hopes and possibilities. Nobody has an infinite amount of patience for the same old stuff, and to an extent I think the devs have dropped the ball there. But then whilst keeping more of the original old community (who for a farily lengthy time were dedicated to LFS, big time) racing regularly would make LFS a far better online environment for everyone, would it sell many more licenses?

In the end I always arrive at the conclusion that they must be selling enough licenses, so they're really not all that bothered.

[Dajmin]

I think it's unfair to say that no progress is being made simply because not one of us knows what sort of code Scawen is looking at and exactly how big the changes are to simply modify some of the stuff that needs altering from patch to patch.

What you actually mean is there's nothing new from a user's point of view, which is pretty much the case. That doesn't mean there's not a million and one changes regarding the underlying code that most of us never see.

And sure, if you started by playing 24/7 then obviously you're going to get bored quicker than someone who only does a handful of races a week. You get through all of the content way quicker and you start to wish for something more. But as has been said before - LFS is not the only thing your computer is allowed to run. You're free to leave and come back as it suits you.

A graphics engine update would only get people onside for so long - until they realised that underneath the new shiny exterior it's still exactly the same game. But I don't know how big a programming job that is. I don't expect it's small.
And right now we know that Scawen is working on a new tyre model and the new car. How much work is involved in either of those? I've never tried to write tyre physics from scratch so I don't know. I expect quite a lot again.

But since you're not continuously paying, you can't really complain that much. If you'd subscribed and were churning money away with no noticable returns then fair enough. But I bet you've had more LFS hours from your £24 than most other racing sims for double the price.

[sinbad]

Sure, you can say that LFS has progressed greatly, just like you can say MG has come on leaps and bounds in the UK in the last couple of years, maybe they'll build and sell a car here in the next 5 years.

I don't care about coding and such, what matters to me is what I have here on the hdd. So you can say, well it takes time, and in the end it doesn't matter if it has taken so long for anything to really change because it's uber-complex and time consuming, or because they've been on holiday for the last 3 years.

Please don't anyone play the "you can play other games" line. No kidding, that isn't the discussion point. This is about the consequences of what is (whichever way you slice it) a painfully long development cycle.

We all also know that the only thing we can complain about is the title of the software as "alpha" because in this instance we know it to mean unfinished and incomplete, but they could get rid of that and shut up shop tomorrow and nobody could complain. Again, that is clearly not what this is ever about. Most people in these threads have never complained, and are not complaining now, just stating what they believe to be happening, and how disappointing it is considering the way things started out.

[Dajmin]

Admittedly I've only been around for the last couple of years. I tried LFS before that but never really took it seriously because I didn't have a wheel.

So if they could get rid of the "alpha" tag (and since all online games are works in progress they might as well) would you guys stop complaining? No, you'd still want more stuff to be added and you'd still complain when a feature was changed. There's no way Scawen can win here.

In fact, think of it this way. Imagine it wasn't available to the public. The guys had been working on it with only a selection of testers and it was made public right now. You'd be more or less happy because you wouldn't have had time to want more from it yet.
The same can be said with any patchable game. I played Everquest for 6 years (which I paid for) and they released patches and expansions every so often (which I also paid for). But if a year went by without any new content, did we complain? No. Because you're choosing to play what the programmers give you.

What exactly do you expect to accomplish by coming on here and saying you're not happy? There's two choices - deal with it or do something else. Your contract was over the second you handed over your money. There was never any guarantee of future development when you signed up so you have nothing in your favour. All you do is upset the developers who - as far as you know - are trying as hard as they can to get the new content rolled out.

[thisnameistaken]

Imagine it wasn't available to the public. The guys had been working on it with only a selection of testers and it was made public right now. You'd be more or less happy because you wouldn't have had time to want more from it yet.

I don't know what I'd think. I'd probably think it looked a bit dated and the physics weren't hugely special. They used to be, but I don't think they are any more.

[sinbad]

What exactly do you expect to accomplish by coming on here and saying you're not happy? There's two choices - deal with it or do something else. Your contract was over the second you handed over your money. There was never any guarantee of future development when you signed up so you have nothing in your favour. All you do is upset the developers who - as far as you know - are trying as hard as they can to get the new content rolled out.

Yes, people do complain about the lack of new stuff, but I don't see that here really. It's a topic of discussion, and this being a forum, and people having opinions on the topic, it seems right to write them here rather than anywhere else.

Trust me, noone who has been here for more than one month expects to achieve a single measly thing from writing here, other than to discuss the topic. I doubt they (SCAVIER) read, much less care about what is written in these pages.

Scawen clearly isn't out to "win" the support of the community, or at least will not go to any lengths to please it. Before the Scirocco was "announced" I half expected them to just delete the Alpha tag and say a blunt farewell. People might be upset but why would they suddenly start caring about that then?

Remember that anyone who is posting in these forums, regardless of what they are actually writing, is basically only here because of an affection for LFS, so don't go labelling people as antagonistic chronic whingers.

Maybe they are trying as hard as possible to get new content to us, the time scale of releases suggests otherwise, but I'm open to an optimistic outlook still. What we really need is for S2 license sales to halt abruptly, that would light a fire under their......bah nevermind :)

[Dajmin]

You reckon there's still enough S2 licenses getting sold to cover their bills and stuff? I wouldn't count on it, otherwise we'd be seeing a lot more active users on the list.

LFS is clearly a labour of love, not an early retirement plan :)

[danowat]

I don't know what I'd think. I'd probably think it looked a bit dated and the physics weren't hugely special. They used to be, but I don't think they are any more.

So the physics have gotten worse?

Sure, the competition is closer (maybe even surpassed it, but its arguable), but LFS still has a very, very good physics system.

I think people outgrow LFS faster than it can itself grow, there just isn't enough "progress" to keep people locked in for ever.

[obsolum]

Also interesting use of word there "melancholic", used mostly in a physocology enviroment, and I take it your a physcologist of some degree (...)
I'm not a native English speaker but to me being melancholic means wistfully reminiscing (sp?) the "good old times" with a feeling of sadness because they're gone. It has nothing to do with psychology and I am not at all a psychologist.


No I am not depressed or mentally unstable, as your insinuating, just taking the oppotunity to express one's opinion of how I feel something has changed.

I didn't mean to insinuate you were depressed or mentally unstable, you just chose to interpret it that way, apparently.

Anyway enough of that, its just a matter of fact. LFS "used" to be pick up and drop as and when see fit and you all, as in a collective, all fitted in, no matter what car, track, combo, what ever we did, it worked. Now, a new Gen is on board, new rules, new regs new guidelines to follow, taking away the "fun" element from the sim racer. Now somebody else is making the choice's for us, we no longer or are being restricted through choice? Now do you see where I am going.

No, I'm afraid I don't really see where you're going. What do you mean with "new rules, new regs, new guidelines" etc etc? The general rules of racing conduct haven't really changed. So unless you used to get together on a server and ram the shit out of each other then racing is exactly the same as it used to be. I really don't know what you're talking about when you refer to those things. You join a server and race, preferably abiding by the general racing etiquette. Yes, a lot of servers now have some sort of welcoming screen where the rules are laid out for you and you're required to click a "Yes" button, but that really is more of a gimmick than anything else as like I said, if you're familiar with general racing rules and etiquette there's usually noting in those pop up screens that you don't already know.

And I have absolutely no clue what you mean by "someone else is making the choices for us". Care to explain? 'Cause really... I couldn't say what you mean by that to save my life. You choose which server you want to race on, which setup you want to you use...

The strive for perfection has indeed for some for most of us has taking the FUN element out of almost realism in a simulated world. We all strive for perfect, that perfect laptime, that perfect corner, that perfect overtaking move, but we enjoyed doing it.
That's not true for everyone. Yes there are people doing hundreds and hundreds of laps trying to shave that split second off their lap, but there are just as many people just racing for the thrill of racing, whether they're fast or slow it makes no difference, it's the joy of going through a corner side by side with another driver and battling it out bumper to bumper for laps on end. Personally, that's what racing is about, for me. To each his own.


I know, start a server, create your own, fine:

A > Give me the time of day to do this
B> Give me the money for a super fast server
C> Give me the broadband speed of T1 connections for pennies

Really all you need to setup a server is a couple of £ to rent one, really not that much. You choose a car and track to be on and you're set to go. You can make it as advanced as you want with insim apps and whatnot, but you don't have to if you don't want to. It's really not that much work.

I still don't know what it is you're looking for in a server or a race. I'm curious to know. Generally you play this game to race against other people online, right? There's still plenty of places to do that, so... I understand if you're just bored of the game itself, the same way many of us are. But to say that it has changed in such a way that you can't enjoy it anymore... I don't get that. Sure, the community has changed, which is inevitable with pretty much any online game, but there's still good places to race.

[RiGun]

I'm going to open a can of worms here, but LFS really needs to open to the modders community, I don't care about new crappy content as far as there is something new, I'm sick of having more than 1,600 laps in KY3 and if a bad port of Monaco or Silverstone is available I would happily go and race there, we've got plenty of cars and setup options but LFS lacks track diversity, that's all, no new physics will bring new light to this simulator, I will certainly like the challenge to be fast on the next physics patch, but that will last how long, a month, for two years of development? I could rant for a long time, but in the end I won't change anything, hopefully LFS someday but if that doesn't happen soon this community will starve of members.

[BurnOut69]

We all would like to see more content, but it really makes no sense as it still being developed.

Say you spend 3 months making the Peugeot 908 (omg!), just to find out Scavier releases a new patch with airbags, klingon language and a new UF1 badge, which effectively renders your shiny peugeot incompatible.

You'd need to develop along with LFS, and honestly, I dont believe many people would do, at least properly.

[AlienT.]

For a game that was originally released in 2003, or whatever, the very fact that we are all still here is a damned fine achievement in itself I think.

I really can't think of many, or even any, games of that age that have the following that LFS does at present.

From my own experience with LFS, when I first tried it in the beginning of 2007 I was dumbfounded with it and couldn't believe how good the online racing was. Now nearly 3 years down the line I rarely even play it anymore as I've moved on to other things. No doubt i'll be bored with them in another couple of years and move on to something else. I guess that's just the way it goes.

The fact that there are people here that have been around since 2003 is something for LFS team and the community as a whole to be proud of.

Oh and no doubt I'll get crucified for mentioning CTRA, but I do believe a system similar to CTRA would make a huge difference, if it was in-built into LFS by the developers. It would take something like that to get me back interested in LFS.

[birder]

Its strange how this type of post comes up over and over again, its as if people think it will make a difference. Face facts, it will not change a thing. The speed of development is painfully slow and chasing the devs will do nothing to speed it up, but its still the the best game for £ per hour i have ever purchased.

I have run servers (CD) for several years and slowly watch players stop racing, yet the number of players in total stay about the same. Demo players still out numbers Licensed players, and number of servers out number demo and licensed players added together.

Even on this forum many of the active posters never use LFS yet still insist to have thier say.

We all want the old days back, with full grids and great racing, in fact i would like to be 40 years younger but it just "aint gonna happen"

Due to getting bored of waiting i recently purchased v1.1 of nKpro for 19e and its latest physics are better (imo) than LFS but there are 12 servers and the most i have seen on them at one time so far is 7 players, normally its 1.

I have done a few races on nKpro and everyone i have met so far have been LFS players and all they talk about is lack of development on LFS

As to LFS, strange how people dont use it, but would miss it if it was no longer there.

I think the last real update was Dec 2007, it always makes the highest number of forum visitors jump, the patches since have added next to nothing.

One thing is for sure if the devs dont get some NEW CONTENT soon LFS may well be doomed.

[hyntty]

Me too. What do we really have that we didn't have 2 or 3 years ago? I guess nothing more than a few "promises" ("promises" because they won't even commit to making a real promise), so let's call them hopes and possibilities. Nobody has an infinite amount of patience for the same old stuff, and to an extent I think the devs have dropped the ball there. But then whilst keeping more of the original old community (who for a farily lengthy time were dedicated to LFS, big time) racing regularly would make LFS a far better online environment for everyone, would it sell many more licenses?

In the end I always arrive at the conclusion that they must be selling enough licenses, so they're really not all that bothered.

Can I point out something. Comparing your statistics to mine you've done 18 625 more km than me while being around an extra 4 years, meaning I would catch you up in less than a few months.

Now my point is that you (and Kev) can not possibly, by any means, have gone through all the content there is in Live for Speed since I have still got numerous car/track combos I have never tried.

But hey, I'm sure you as someone who doesn't play the game at all have a point in the dev team merely sitting on their arses :D

[thisnameistaken]

Now my point is that you (and Kev) can not possibly, by any means, have gone through all the content there is in Live for Speed since I have still got numerous car/track combos I have never tried.

If there are combos I haven't raced online it's because there was nowhere to do it or nobody to do it with, or it's a stupid combo like BF1/BL2.

If there were busy pick-up servers running interesting content I'd probably still be playing LFS, but I'm not content to drive GTRs around Aston National for my entire ****ing life like most people are.

The only place I could get a decent race in the last couple of years was dMr, and often by the time I'd finished work and got online they were winding up for the night (Doorman's usually tucked up in bed by 10pm!)

[Matrixi]

Now my point is that you (and Kev) can not possibly, by any means, have gone through all the content there is in Live for Speed since I have still got numerous car/track combos I have never tried.

You know, the "YOU HAVEN'T EVEN RACED ALL THE COMBOS YET!!" card is starting to get old.

What I do find funny (not pointing at anyone), are the new guys acting like they have been around since day one telling oldies off like they know better what we want. :tilt:

[AndroidXP]

You know, the "YOU HAVEN'T EVEN RACED ALL THE COMBOS YET!!" card is starting to get old.ShutupLFSisstillALPHA! :razz:

[birder]

but I'm not content to drive GTRs around Aston National for my entire ****ing life like most people are.

Thursday nights CD1 changes from AS3 to another track and runs 8 races with 4 cars (2 races each) and thats great fun. come and have a run out :)

all welcome

[Matrixi]

ShutupLFSisstillALPHA! :razz:
Wellmakeabettersimyourselfthen! :razz:

[hyntty]

You know, the "YOU HAVEN'T EVEN RACED ALL THE COMBOS YET!!" card is starting to get old.


Well tbh so is the "THERE'S TOO LITTLE CONTENT I WANT NEW CARS AND TRACKS AND SCIROCCOS IN LFS NOW11!!!ONE!" one too...

Quit the whining. Really.

[thisnameistaken]

Well tbh so is the "THERE'S TOO LITTLE CONTENT I WANT NEW CARS AND TRACKS AND SCIROCCOS IN LFS NOW11!!!ONE!" one too...

Quit the whining. Really.

One thing I've often found useful is reading the ****ing thread before replying to it.

[obsolum]

What I do find funny (not pointing at anyone), are the new guys acting like they have been around since day one telling oldies off like they know better what we want. :tilt:
No one's telling any of the "oldies" what they want. Hell, it seems they themselves don't even know what they want :tilt: It's just that the OP's post doesn't make much sense if you really think about it; I'm still waiting for the answer to what it really is the OP misses in LFS now compared to the "good old days".

Also, I find it unfortunate that this topic had to turn into yet another discussion about development speed. That wasn't what the OP's post was about at all, and we've discussed any and every argument in that discussion ad nauseum in numerous other threads. It never changes anything.

[sinbad]

Can I point out something. Comparing your statistics to mine you've done 18 625 more km than me while being around an extra 4 years, meaning I would catch you up in less than a few months.

Now my point is that you (and Kev) can not possibly, by any means, have gone through all the content there is in Live for Speed since I have still got numerous car/track combos I have never tried.

But hey, I'm sure you as someone who doesn't play the game at all have a point in the dev team merely sitting on their arses :D

You can compare online stats all you want, I'll freely admit I haven't had an online race in ages, and that was after a 6 month hiatus.

I also haven't hotlapped in an eternity, although I'd bet I've done at least half as many miles again off-line in the 7 years I've had LFS on my computer, and god knows how many before they even started counting. And "lol" I'm still on the top 50 all-time race wins total chart, so trust me, I've played the damn game enough to be able to comment.

Have I driven all the cars I like on every circuit I like, of course I have. Do you sit there thinking, "hmm, I'm a bit tired of Aston National in the GTRs, but hey, I haven't driven the UF1000 on the oval yet, and I haven't found an online server running BF1 on Aston Cadet Reversed, so I'll go and look for one!"? Maybe if it were so easy, maybe if online numbers had been kept really high, I would have not drifted away.

Don't talk nonsense when you've been here 2 years. You comment on how other people "should not be bored yet", you've done 2000 laps of the oval, 1 in ten of your 20,000 is an oval lap in FO8, no wonder the other stuff is interesting still.

[rockclan]

Why the oldtimers with a few exceptions are not coming back onto LFS is very clear.
The immature nature of todays LFS players is scaring the away.:thumb:

[rediske]

...Quit the whining. Really.

I don't think this thread is about whining whatsoever... :shrug:

[The Moose]

Due to getting bored of waiting i recently purchased v1.1 of nKpro for 19e and its latest physics are better (imo) than LFS but there are 12 servers and the most i have seen on them at one time so far is 7 players, normally its 1.


There is indeed very little pickup racing going on, but head over to Race2Play in the new year if you want some top quality league racing. They are running championships in all the cars except the FF1800. The F2000 and FTarget leagues have really taken off. More and more people are discovering nKPro and race2play are doing a great job of promoting it and organizing races.


As for the OP. It's obvious that the old school LFS racers have all moved on to sims that deliver what LFS promised to be but never quite made it. It has now fallen behind the competition by a considerable margin imo.

There is a new crowd here these days that don't particularly want the most realistic and "hardcore" (apologies for that expression...i cant think of another :p ) sim experience. All you have to do is look at the names in iRacing and nKPro and you'll find all the old, good LFS racers.
Having fun in sim racing means good, clean racing in cars with the best physics (and some nice visuals as a bonus) doesn't it? That's why a hell of a lot of the old school have moved on.

I've no doubt that a visual makeover, the new tire physics, updated track surfaces and some new content would bring a lot of them back. Until then your stuck with the current LFS crowd and it's dated game mechanics. Live with it or find yourself another sim.

[JO53PHS]

If there are combos I haven't raced online it's because there was nowhere to do it or nobody to do it with, or it's a stupid combo like BF1/BL2.

If there were busy pick-up servers running interesting content I'd probably still be playing LFS, but I'm not content to drive GTRs around Aston National for my entire ****ing life like most people are.

Whilst I do agree with you, what you want is verging on impossible to do.

We've (My team and I) have attempted to run servers with unusual combos before, and as a general rule, they fail epically. No matter how much encouragement you give people, they don't want to race a combo if they're no good at it. This covers both cars with *interesting* handling such as the RAC and MRT, as well as perhaps the more powerful cars like the LX6.

The problem about running these servers is you can't initially get enough people into your server to make other people want to join. If the server isn't populated, people won't join it.

You can't really blame server hosts and admins, because some try hard to push the more unusual combos, but their efforts are useless if the net result is 2 people in their server. The tried and tested combos are used by many because that's what gets people in their server, and for many hosts/admins, that's what is most important.

[obsolum]

We've (My team and I) have attempted to run servers with unusual combos before, and as a general rule, they fail epically. (...) The problem about running these servers is you can't initially get enough people into your server to make other people want to join. If the server isn't populated, people won't join it.
You say "you and your team". How many are in your team then? If you all join the server to have some fun, that may well be enough to make other people join, too. Dead Men Racing (dMr) have run unusual combos for years and never failed to draw people in. Of course, dMr has a decent number of active drivers who solely race on the dMr server, so as a result there'll usually be at least about 7 people on. That's usually enough to get other people to at least come and have a look.

Of course, results vary depending on the combo. Some weeks we get 20+ gids, other weeks we only get 10 drivers. But there's almost always enough people on to have a decent race. Now with the holidays, though, things might be a bit slower, especially since the server is set to TBO's @ FE RallyCross for the time being, which may not be everyone's cup of tea. It certainly isn't mine :)

[thisnameistaken]

We've (My team and I) have attempted to run servers with unusual combos before, and as a general rule, they fail epically. ...

You can't really blame server hosts and admins, because some try hard to push the more unusual combos, but their efforts are useless if the net result is 2 people in their server. The tried and tested combos are used by many because that's what gets people in their server, and for many hosts/admins, that's what is most important.

I don't know what your situation was but of course if your primary concern is being popular then you're only going to offer populist content. I agree most hosts strive for popularity above all else, and that's why there's no diversity.

So yeah I can blame server hosts.

[dawesdust_12]

I BLAME MIDDLE AGED SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS WHO LIVE IN ENGLAND!

/thread.

[JO53PHS]

Yes, you can blame server hosts when they just stick with the usual crap, but when they try to mix it up a bit, there's only so much they can do.

[thisnameistaken]

Well either way, there's not much point in a racing sim that's got three combos, which is what you get online.

[th84]

3? I usually only see 1 that has more than 2 people in it.

You must be counting cruise servers.....

[Fordman]

Thank you everybody for you comments, good or bad. It does make me laugh, in that people say "here comes fordie with his yearly rant and rave" but clearly, they are not reading my posts properly. Its not a rant or rave, it is clearly a statment of opinion, just like everybody else does.

OK look back, if I was ranting and raving about content, drivers, server's etc etc, why on earth does an overnight post goes to over 3 pages, clearly I am not on my own here.

Thisnameistaken hit the nail on the head.....

Well either way, there's not much point in a racing sim that's got three combos, which is what you get online

All I am saying and what I am trying to get at is, it would be "nice" to have some servers that are there purly for fun, no rules, no regs, jump on and go. OK you say there is plenty out there, but half full, even 1/4 full, then please point me in that direction. Remember when the server list was short, and you had to queue and wait for a slot.......

People say there is not enough content, total trosh, there is enough combo's to keep people going for years, but what we need is options, choice, not the same old same old.......like TNIT said above.

Its funny also, the people that have been about for donkey's neither slate or slag people off. They not only sometimes understand somebodies opinion but also respect it.

As LFS grows, so does the community, its popularity choice, which is great for LFS and the Devs and us as a whole, but lets be brave and extend the choice.

All you server owners, you lucky buggers you :D why not ask us mere mortals what would we like to see online, what combo's in a revolving format ( I take it insim can do this ) would us pick up and go people would like to have a bubble with?

Demands are to be negoiated. If told then one will diverse ( training coming in there )

Hope that makes sence, and so nice to see the foundations of LFS getting involved in what I would class as a good discussion :D

Regards

Fordie

[thisnameistaken]

3? I usually only see 1 that has more than 2 people in it.

You must be counting cruise servers.....

I was having a guess, something like GTR@AS3, FOX or FBM at BL1 and maybe that SO layout that came in a patch that time.

Have a good christmas by the way matey. :)

[ChiliFan]

These are the top 28 servers as of 5 minutes ago:

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1439/lfstop28servers.jpg

Excluding drift servers we have 9 combos:

GTR at AS National
FOX at KY National REV
XFG & XRG at BL GP
TBO & GTR at BL GP
FBM at BL GP
XFG & XRG at BL Rallycross
GTR at KY Oval
FOX at AS North REV
TBO at WE International REV

There are only 9 servers running anything other than XFG & XRG or FBM at BL GP. Only 3 of those have more than 12 people playing. As far as I know, FOX Junkies is the only one of those that ever changes which track it's running.

I'm not sure how people can be content with running the exact same car and track day after day, but it seems most of them can.

[birder]

There is indeed very little pickup racing going on, but head over to Race2Play in the new year if you want some top quality league racing. They are running championships in all the cars except the FF1800. The F2000 and FTarget leagues have really taken off. More and more people are discovering nKPro and race2play are doing a great job of promoting it and organizing races.


Sorry to say i find it difficult to line up the time with other peoples times so pickup racing is all i can manage at the moment, But thanks for the info

[birder]

There are only 9 servers running anything other than XFG & XRG or FBM at BL GP.

There are 100's of servers that run other combos, CD runs 4 that you can select on entry. Whats missing is racers who want to race on them.

For years CD1 was the AS3/GTR server and you may think that its just changed over to AMG when in fact very few of the AMG racers are the old CD1 racers.

Notice how many on you list are Demo, and mark my words on the day Rockinham, the new physics or the VWS come out there will be loads full and they will all be running the new combo

Well for a month anyway :really:

[Kristi]

Whats missing is racers who want to race on them.

Thats the most important thing. So eh ???

[bbman]

The people in this thread alone who voiced their desire for other combos than the usual cliché ones would be enough to at least half fill a server, yet instead of doing something you rather bicker about it on the forums... I'm sorry guys, you only have to blame yourselves for not putting your words into action... :shrug:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

There's 16 people that've bickered about combos in this thread who live in similar time zones & are guaranteed to have similar personal schedules? :really:

Anyway, even when LFS was in it's heyday it was the same combos just even more lemmings running them, so it's a moot point. :razz:

[AlienT.]

I'll bet you that Moose has NkPro tattoed on his arse :razz:.

Although this thread has ventured of topic and back again, it is good to listen to the old timers opinions. Keep it up ya miserable old sods.

At the end of the day the fact that we can race each other online is absolutely fantastic, lets not forget that. 15 years ago that would have been an impossible dream.

[Shotglass]

but desperately clinging on to "old times" never worked, and never will...

give the guy a break hes british... its in his blood :p

[NunoMike]

These are the top 28 servers as of 5 minutes ago:

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1439/lfstop28servers.jpg

Excluding drift servers we have 9 combos:

GTR at AS National
FOX at KY National REV
XFG & XRG at BL GP
TBO & GTR at BL GP
FBM at BL GP
XFG & XRG at BL Rallycross
GTR at KY Oval
FOX at AS North REV
TBO at WE International REV

There are only 9 servers running anything other than XFG & XRG or FBM at BL GP. Only 3 of those have more than 12 people playing. As far as I know, FOX Junkies is the only one of those that ever changes which track it's running.

I'm not sure how people can be content with running the exact same car and track day after day, but it seems most of them can.
As I said before, I bought S2 some weeks ago and this is something I have to say that really disappointed me. I understand there is a server with the focus on some type of car (GTR, TBO, SS) or some type of racing (Drift, rallycross). What bugs me is the same server with the same track over and over again.

I get bored playing in the same track all night, so what to say if I see all week or a whole month with the same car/track combo.

There are something like 40 different tracks in LFS, counting reverse. I really think it doesn't have to be so monotunous...

[pik_d]

As I said before, I bought S2 some weeks ago and this is something I have to say that really disappointed me. I understand there is a server with the focus on some type of car (GTR, TBO, SS) or some type of racing (Drift, rallycross). What bugs me is the same server with the same track over and over again.

I get bored playing in the same track all night, so what to say if I see all week or a whole month with the same car/track combo.

There are something like 40 different tracks in LFS, counting reverse. I really think it doesn't have to be so monotunous...
Two of the top three in that image (Fox Junkies and Ironhorse) run on a rotation. So it's not the same tracks all night. :shrug:

[Michael Denham]

I haven't read all the posts but here's my view.... do I still play LFS regularly? No, not really. But how many other games that I started playing 2002 do I still play? Errr, none. The way I've always found things to be is that I buy a game for what it is, then play it until I'm bored with it, then move on to something else. So why does LFS still owe us anything after all these years of entertainment?? Most games you buy in stores do not have development cycles... you buy them and play them until you get bored. Sure another one might come out later but it'll cost you another $60 or whatever...

It seems that just because the devs are continuing to work on LFS, that they owe us something. When in reality we pay for a game and play it for as long as it's entertaining to us. If we get updates that bring us back, then great, if not then leave it and do something else. Maybe you'll pick it up again in another year or two and get back into it for a while, who knows.

[danowat]

I am betting some of it is to do with the "rose tinted glasses" effect.

[JeffR]

Excluding drift servers we have 9 combos:
GTR at AS National
FOX at KY National REV
XFG & XRG at BL GP
TBO & GTR at BL GP
FBM at BL GP
XFG & XRG at BL Rallycross
GTR at KY Oval
FOX at AS North REV
TBO at WE International REV
I haven't played LFS in years, and based on this list the online play has really changed. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but when I played online, the server would change the track after every race, or perhaps every other race (only repeating the same track once). You'd have the equivalent of multi-class racing with some difficult to drive (before S2 version V) LX6's in the mix that were faster if you could manage to keep them pointed forwards, but mostly these followed the true sense of mutli-class racing where different class cars were running on the same track at the same time, so it was like a group of races within a race.

old timersI think there's a burn out factor for the older guys, some who have been playing games for over 10 years. I spend more of my computer time on forums than gaming, and I spend more of my free time with other activities than on the computer. The fact that LFS is stuck in the past with it's slow development pace isn't helping either, but that's another topic.

I wonder about the future of computer games. My gut tells me that the heydays of racing games and perphaps PC based games in general was 2003 -> 2007, and it's diminishing now. I'm wondering if iRacing will survive more than a few years, if rFactor 2 will reach even 1/2 the sales of rRafctor, if the NFS series end with the planned 2010 releases, if there ever be an LFS S3 (what was it supppose to have that S2 didn't?), if there will be any more TombRaider games, ... A lot of game production simple stopped or slowed to a crawl in the last 2 or 3 years. Already I've seen the demise of the Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic series (there will never be a III). Half-Life 2 Episode 3 will be nothing like the previous 2 games.

[bbman]

There's 16 people that've bickered about combos in this thread who live in similar time zones & are guaranteed to have similar personal schedules? :really:

Maybe not, but without trying they'll never find out - which I'm sure you're aware was my real point... I mean there have been servers like desired by them in the past, set up just on forum initiative... Granted they all were short-lived, but I bet you that - if any effort would go into it - there would be such a server found or set up by someone on here in no time... Of course, playing the grumpy old man telling the world how bad it has gotten is much more convenient than taking action to make it better...

[pik_d]

I wonder about the future of computer games. My gut tells me that the heydays of racing games and perphaps PC based games in general was 2003 -> 2007, and it's diminishing now. I'm wondering if iRacing will survive more than a few years, if rFactor 2 will reach even 1/2 the sales of rRafctor, if the NFS series end with the planned 2010 releases, if there ever be an LFS S3 (what was it supppose to have that S2 didn't?), if there will be any more TombRaider games, ... A lot of game production simple stopped or slowed to a crawl in the last 2 or 3 years. Already I've seen the demise of the Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic series (there will never be a III). Half-Life 2 Episode 3 will be nothing like the previous 2 games.
This is just silly. Computer games are not dying and never will. Sometimes series die out and are replaced by newer ones, just like TV shows do. You may feel the same way about TV, that it's all crap today (I know I do), but it is what it is, and that doesn't mean that there's less of it or less viewers.

There will always be racing games, maybe during 2015-2020 there will be a bunch of really good ones, or a bunch of really trashy lowest-common-denominator types, but I can guarantee you that there WILL be racing games then, and plenty of people will play them.

[birder]

Racing games seem to hold their own as far as computer games.

Computer games dying, no way, the numbers just dont show that

30 million xbox, 25 million ps3, 51 million Wii and who nows how many pc's sold proves that.

Some of the developers spend millions on developement every year. The LFS team have done well but now the development is slowing because
1) they have been doing it for a long time,
2) what they need to program to make big steps forward is much harder
3) they have more players to satisfy.

One thing is for sure, if you goto one of the servers where you can select a track and all cars and race a rare combo, other racers will join.

[JeffR]

Racing games seem to hold their own as far as computer games.I meant PC based racing games. Other than some NFS games (note the NFS series recently broke the 100 million total sold count), no racing game has made into the top 10 list of top selling games, and I don't think any sim-oriented PC based racing game ever made it to the top 50.

Using the NFS series as a benchmark, Underground 2 and Most Wanted sold 9 million copies, each, while Carbon and ProStreet about 5 million copies. I don't know numbers for Undercover, but assume it was less than 5 million. NFS Shift had sold 2.5 million copies by the end of September (From EA quaterly report), so it may end up reversing the trend. The online play in NFS series peaked with Underground 2, with a few hundred players online at peak times. Now there are probably less than 50 players online at peak times with NFS Shift, some of this is due to console sales splitting up the players though. LFS has somehow managed to retain a relatively high number of online players though.

I know the console games were and are very popular in the USA (where I live), are they also starting to catch on in other parts ofthe world?

[NunoMike]

Two of the top three in that image (Fox Junkies and Ironhorse) run on a rotation. So it's not the same tracks all night. :shrug:
I know, pik_d! But you must admit it is way too short in options to run. For example, I have clear difficulties in driving a SS car and need more training in order to not ruin some guys race in FOX Junkies. :schwitz:

Ironhorse has an interesting point scheme and is one of my most used servers online, apart with AMG.

[richo]

There's no need to pine for the "Old Days" as not a lot has changed , if you look at it from someone that picks this sim up every few there very little difference.

Drifting and Cruising would seem to be the biggest impact , running around Blackwood today isn't much different than back in 2004 .

Theres still the fun of bouncing into the stratosphere if you hit someone or a barrier, boggles the mind that it hasn't been fixed in five years and counting..

I will probably be crucified for what i have said but as some one else said the alpha tag and have you tried all the combo's sentiment is pretty thin these days..

[th84]

Have a good christmas by the way matey. :)


Thanks, pal! You do the same. :)

I'm not tired of lack of content, or no new patches... I would log-on every night is there were a populated server that wasn't either cruise, DD or FOX/GTR's at BL.

[Zebediah_S2]

sure there are combos i havent tried yet, but honestly, there is no point to driving the mrt around the oval.
then there are the boring cars.
FXO comes to mind. its just heavy, low powered, and eats tires... thats about it. boring.

LFS needs to grow somehow.
the VW will help, and the new track will help more, but what it needs is more diversity and (as said earlier) the kind of "newness" that can only come from constant updates.
weather the updates are from the official devs, or from a modding community, it doesnt matter.
we need some changes

[510N3D]

No kidding !! :sheep:

[jasonmatthews]

Well, in my small opinion, and if I had a choice of things that really I cannot understand about the LFS development, it would be this -

1. Curb/mesh bugs - This is singly the most annoying bug in LFS IMO. To do a 6 hour race then get your car killed by a random curb is more than annoying, it is kinda criminal after all this time, and also it happens on the best tracks in LFS (KY2 etc) :(

2. Interiors - Come on, does it really take 5+ years to update 3 or 4 cars? Especially when you have a community of such talent.. This one I cannot comprehend..

3. Barrier's/collision physics - This hasn't changed from S1, and bloody hell it is annoying, especially when it costs a race...

Conclusion

All the things that annoy me about about LFS are simple physics bugs that have been around for a LONG LONG time. These things stop us enjoying LFS NOW and for as long as they are not fixed. Getting updates is a bonus IMO, but fixing these bugs is more important than any tyre physics update, any language pack or support for 3+ screens..

[ChiliFan]

I was thinking about that today. It's simple things that have been ruining races in the most annoying ways for years.

Case in point: the armco on the bridge at Fern Bay. Touch that even slightly and you get launched into the air with your suspension completely destroyed. To me that's worse than a crah with someone else, because it's completely down to the physics bugs and it's a punishment that doesn't fit the crime. And surely it can't be that hard to fix, since most of the rest of the armco is fine.

[Chupacabras84]

As for me the game is just boring visually and there is not enough tracks.
If you look at it almost every track is green its just grass and trees and nothing more Kyoto, westhil and aston looks just like different layout of blackwood.

I know LFS is online racing simulator but I am more into offline racing my fav times with gran turismo were taking some slow car like citroen 2cv/golf GT/daiahtsu etc etc on the nurburgring and drive it for pure pleasure of dirving.
Now in lfs the track looks so boring that after driving blackwood with lx6 or raceabout and turning to aston I dont see any difference.

The same boring look just killing the fun after 20 of laps even if you switch to kyoto it still look like layout of aston in some way.
Even abandoned vilages in stalker have more live in them than tracks in LFS :D
And I am not talking bout graphics cuz with new textures its look pretty nice and with lynx reflection my FZ5 looksl beautiful with custom 2048^ skin but I am talking bout placing more objects or making tracks surrounding looks more interesting.
The making of new custom object its usually a couple of hours mesh and texture.
I would do it my self but it would be moding which is a forbidden, bannable etc etc :smileypul.
I personally prefer to drive poorly made port of Silverstone or laguna seca than aston for 100th time.

As for now in LFS physics is the only thing worth mentioning but without anything else its just getting boring.

[Kamrock]

As for me the game is just boring visually and there is not enough tracks.
If you look at it almost every track is green its just grass and trees and nothing more Kyoto, westhil and aston looks just like different layout of blackwood.

I know LFS is online racing simulator but I am more into offline racing my fav times with gran turismo were taking some slow car like citroen 2cv/golf GT/daiahtsu etc etc on the nurburgring and drive it for pure pleasure of dirving.
Now in lfs the track looks so boring that after driving blackwood with lx6 or raceabout and turning to aston I dont see any difference.

The same boring look just killing the fun after 20 of laps even if you switch to kyoto it still look like layout of aston in some way.
Even abandoned vilages in stalker have more live in them than tracks in LFS :D
And I am not talking bout graphics cuz with new textures its look pretty nice and with lynx reflection my FZ5 looksl beautiful with custom 2048^ skin but I am talking bout placing more objects or making tracks surrounding looks more interesting.
The making of new custom object its usually a couple of hours mesh and texture.
I would do it my self but it would be moding which is a forbidden, bannable etc etc :smileypul.
I personally prefer to drive poorly made port of Silverstone or laguna seca than aston for 100th time.

As for now in LFS physics is the only thing worth mentioning but without anything else its just getting boring.

Hmm, being a big fan of South City, I tend to get plenty of scenery, and being so close to the barriers, lots of action too...

Reading through this thread makes me sad, for two reasons.

The first reason is that I am in Ireland, Dublin to be precise, but my gaming rig, 21" CRT and DFP Wheel are all still in England. If I want to take it up again I'm gonna have to re-learn to drive with the mouse...

The second more comes from being an "old timer" as you may put it and having given the game a bit of break (I've not really done serious online races since CTRA stopped... but I never said that :D ) and really want to get back into some serious racing... Pick-up or otherwise.

[Chupacabras84]

Hmm, being a big fan of South City, I tend to get plenty of scenery, and being so close to the barriers, lots of action too...

South City and Fern bay, the rest of tracks reminds me one of my trip in train i was riding train for 3 straight days and scenery behind the windows was always the same:
Field,Small Village,Wood,Field,Small Village,Wood,Field,Small Village,Wood,Border

When it comes to steering I connected my PS2 controller and it does pretty good job when it comes to applying throttle or braking.
You can try still cheaper than wheel.

[Kamrock]

When it comes to steering I connected my PS2 controller and it does pretty good job when it comes to applying throttle or braking.
You can try still cheaper than wheel.

That's also in England... Hehe

Mouse it'll be, I used to do it, I'm sure I can again...

[AndRand]

really want to get back into some serious racing... Pick-up or otherwise.
Advertising thread to create a snowball :)

[Psymonhilly]

Well, in my small opinion, and if I had a choice of things that really I cannot understand about the LFS development, it would be this -

1. Curb/mesh bugs - This is singly the most annoying bug in LFS IMO. To do a 6 hour race then get your car killed by a random curb is more than annoying, it is kinda criminal after all this time, and also it happens on the best tracks in LFS (KY2 etc) :(

2. Interiors - Come on, does it really take 5+ years to update 3 or 4 cars? Especially when you have a community of such talent.. This one I cannot comprehend..

3. Barrier's/collision physics - This hasn't changed from S1, and bloody hell it is annoying, especially when it costs a race...

Conclusion

All the things that annoy me about about LFS are simple physics bugs that have been around for a LONG LONG time. These things stop us enjoying LFS NOW and for as long as they are not fixed. Getting updates is a bonus IMO, but fixing these bugs is more important than any tyre physics update, any language pack or support for 3+ screens..

well said jason :thumb: this is where the attention SHOULD be :nod:

[durrri]

I agree with fordman,

The expectation of the new tyre physics is completely blinding a lot of racers from just enjoying the races...
it's still a lot of good fun to stay a car's length ahead of somebody for the entire 5 laps... (just to F up the last turn and have him win ;ppp)

WILL keep enjoying the sim until it gets all better.. (fanboy alert!!!) :D

[jjones]

http://www.xmotorracing.com/index.html Came across this sim, check it out,

[obsolum]

http://www.xmotorracing.com/index.html Came across this sim, check it out,
On the "About us" page it says:

Exotypos and Lynce Digital Art - Javier Ferreira.
That's Lynce from this forum, who made texture packs and reflection mods and whatnot. Apparently he's a co-developer :shrug:

[AndroidXP]

Last time I checked that thing was a huge piece of garbage. Maybe it's better now :shrug:

E: Yes, it has been massively improved. Now it's only a medium sized piece of garbage.

[jjones]

Last time I checked that thing was a huge piece of garbage. Maybe it's better now :shrug:

E: Yes, it has been massively improved. Now it's only a medium sized piece of garbage.

I do agree. :nod: What a peace of garbage, no other sim ive played can top LFS :thumb:

[Kristi]

http://www.xmotorracing.com/cars.html
MHRT reminds me of something...

[AndroidXP]

No, really? (http://fsae.mcgill.ca/en/indexen.htm) :rolleyes:

[morpha]

That's Lynce from this forum, who made texture packs and reflection mods and whatnot. Apparently he's a co-developer :shrug:

Can't really blame him, he offered the entire Revolution Pack, with licences in order and (AFAIK) all legal obstructions taken care of. Scavier wasted a huge opportunity :shrug:

http://www.xmotorracing.com/cars.html
MHRT reminds me of something...

No, really? (http://fsae.mcgill.ca/en/indexen.htm) :rolleyes:

Here's an interesting bit from the FAQ:I'm with the Formula Student team at the University of Glasgow and noticed that McGill University used your software for simulation purposes. I was wondering if you could tell me if a student license costs any different to a personal or business license.

Edit: Just tried the Demo, it's terrible, but ambitious. I was pleased to see OpenAL, which lead me to believe there would be proper 3D sound. Well, it's helpful for the skid sounds, but why the engine note, or rather exhaust note, is coming from the front (not even slightly panned towards the rear) is beyond me, especially in a "Doxter", which is mid-engined (i.e. I should be hearing actual engine noise from behind me).

[DEFFX]

Hi Guys

The thing is, there was not quite so many "variables" to adjust to
it felt like driving/racing mostly/kinda (wheel, feedback and the experience felt realish enough ), and there was great RESPECT for other good players.
i loved it, hell im competative in mario karts, thats whats it was about!
Racing people on a fair playing field like a gentelman,yeh yeh racing aint quite like that in real life, but an honest win is the only win.
lol read it twice at least, makes no sense to me, i was a fanatic who packed it up when it all got to hard. Know were your coming from Fordman.
Hi to all the old skewl out DEFFX

[LiveForBoobs]

For the guys complaining about progress, lack of new content, etc. If you don't like the game, or are tired about running the same cars/tracks over and over, just leave it. Simple. Actually, it probably motivates the devs much more if the community starts to significantly decrease than people moaning around on forums.

[AYRTON (EUS)]

Maybe LFS can grow in the S3 if they put the open code for letting people upgrade it, or maybe not. The thing is, that in other games many people did very good jobs, for example Richard Burns Rally which is ,i believe, from 2003, is still played by many people, and the people made fabulous cars for the exception of the Group B class, because RBR programmers/developers or SCI didn´t let player-developers to do it.
I know is the infinite discussion, but maybe the community would help in S3 if they let us do it. All it need to be is a filter from the developers to say what is good and what is not. I think that it´s clearly obvious that they need help, but they don´t want it for whatever the reasons they´ve got.