Complaints Department - Open 24/7/365

[racer hero]

A perfect way to specify what wind to have is to set it to 0.

[Tomhah]

a perfect way to specify what wind to have is to set it to 0.

+99999999999999999999999999999

[Puzzle]

I agree, wind makes the track more dangerous. Being this is an amateur league, we shouldn't be adding such un-neccessary dangers.

[Tomhah]

I agree, wind makes the track more dangerous. Being this is an amateur league, we shouldn't be adding such un-neccessary dangers.

I agree with that. No point in making it harder than the track already is, as this is an amateur league. I think the track is dangerous enough as it is.

[AstroBoy]

I just think you should drink a cup of cement and harden up. Its not always going to be perfect. Adapt to the change and act accordingly problem solved.

[racer hero]

It's not our fault that you don't drive on the limit, so it doesn't affect you.

It might not be a problem for you, but when you're standing in the way, it creates a problem for us..

[Tomhah]

I just think you should drink a cup of cement and harden up. Its not always going to be perfect. Adapt to the change and act accordingly problem solved.


its nothing I can do with people standing in the middle of the road because of the wind. ;) Problem not solved :P

[DeadWolfBones]

It ain't a hotlapping league.

Admittedly, LFS's wind implementation has problems, but in principle I think it should be used in all major series.

[racer hero]

It ain't a hotlapping league.

Admittedly, LFS's wind implementation has problems, but in principle I think it should be used in all major series.

As much as it sucks to say, every endurance league turns into a hotlapping league after an hour other then a few minutes an hour. :D

[PMD9409]

As much as it sucks to say, every endurance league turns into a hotlapping league after an hour other then a few minutes an hour. :D

That's LFS' fault.

Gotta have wind, if not you guys might as well wip out the FWDs. :D

[N!ghtm@re]

I just wanted to ask if you think the handicaps are fair like they are at the moment ?
I don't think so.
I think the FXR is a lot too slow. The Restriction of the FXR should be reduced by 1 % generally and i think on this track even 2% would be fair.
FXR is more than 1 second slower than the other cars on this track.....


*And i already read comments like : "yeah that's the way it's supposed to be."
What is that supposed to mean?*

[GianniC]

I just wanted to ask if you think the handicaps are fair like they are at the moment ?
I don't think so.
I think the FXR is a lot too slow. The Restriction of the FXR should be reduced by 1 % generally and i think on this track even 2% would be fair.
FXR is more than 1 second slower than the other cars on this track.....


*And i already read comments like : "yeah that's the way it's supposed to be."
What is that supposed to mean?*

The FXR is much easier to handle and control, which makes it for the driver a lot easier to drive 2 hours with it compared to a very attention demanding FZR or hard on the rears XRR. That said, I personaly wouldn't mind some more competitive FXR - then I can convince the team to make the switch to it :D

[N!ghtm@re]

Yeah okay that's maybe true.

But if you want to drive fast with the FXR you also have to pay alot of attention. And if you do so you are still 1 second slower. That's not fair i think :)

And of course even more than 1 second in Qualy.

[J@tko]

I think a decent team could challenge with the FXR at somewhere like South City :)

Although, of course you'll struggle somewhere like KY3.

[N!ghtm@re]

So what about just change the restriction for this race ?

Anyway..FXR is the slowest car with this restrictions....Why ?

[ivantod]

Why do You chose FXR and then complain about slowness?
If you want speed,chose other car.If you want to drive fxr,then drive it and stop moaning about it :)

[xtraction]

well no, i seen tdrt running mid 24's from start, and 23's mid - low near end of their stint, its nothing to do with the restriction, just your setup / driving. Good luck anyway in the tank :razz:

[J@tko]

So what about just change the restriction for this race ?

Anyway..FXR is the slowest car with this restrictions....Why ?
Basically it's because if we made them all the same speed then EVERYONE would use the FXR [well, I think some teams would just refuse to, but thats beside the point :P] because it's the easiest to drive.

[N!ghtm@re]

well no, i seen tdrt running mid 24's from start, and 23's mid - low near end of their stint, its nothing to do with the restriction, just your setup / driving. Good luck anyway in the tank :razz:
LOL. I do even faster than that. But it's still slower than the other cars. It's not about the set.

@ J@tko:

hm..... but i don't think that alot of teams would change the car if you would reduce restrictionit by 1%

@ ivantod

I choose FXR because i like the car. I just thin all cars should have the same chances. That's the idea.....

[xtraction]

well if your faster than that, you will be ok then wont you :/

[Humbleridderen]

Basically it's because if we made them all the same speed then EVERYONE would use the FXR [well, I think some teams would just refuse to, but thats beside the point :P] because it's the easiest to drive.

That´s not correct.. try to take 1 % away from fxr and fzr and xrr will stil be faster., So a lot of people would still choose fzr and xrr.

It´s like some people don´t want the fxr to be competative for some peculiar reason.

[PMD9409]

Maybe because people have already told you but you are ignoring it.

I watched FXR teams practice for BL1R and run times that ended up being the lead times. The fact that drivers fold under pressure is not the car's fault.

[Humbleridderen]

It ain't a hotlapping league.

Admittedly, LFS's wind implementation has problems, but in principle I think it should be used in all major series.

Hm, maybe not meant to be, but if you really think about a real endurance race, like Le Mans, and think about all the things happening in such an event. Cars getting damages all over and they have to get it checked or repaired, the wind factor, the light, electrical problems etc. When real cars hit something, they have to get it checked,, not just continue like we do in LFS. So in my opinion all LFS endurance leagues are pretty much just a "long sprint race" spiced up with elements of a real endurance.

Developers should really work on this issue, (make damages more real and important for the outcome etc) since so many drivers like endurance races. Le Mans could be a very good example to look at. :smileypul

[N!ghtm@re]

Maybe because people have already told you but you are ignoring it.

I watched FXR teams practice for BL1R and run times that ended up being the lead times. The fact that drivers fold under pressure is not the car's fault.

Yeah that was possible on BL1R, but not on KY3.

[PMD9409]

Just stay consistent and let the other guys make mistakes, that's the only way to do well in FXR really. TDRT did it for a while and it payed off well (IGTC 2008).

[racer hero]

Yeah that was possible on BL1R, but not on KY3.

And XRR will be at a disadvantage at south city. It's not going to be even at every track. Instead of complaining about your car not being fast enough go practice to get the most out of the car you chose. It's not the admins fault you chose the car that is at a disadvantage, the schedule was out when you chose the FXR.

[z-ro 8]

.... Instead of complaining about your car not being fast enough go practice to get the most out of the car you chose. ....


omg.
that is the smartest post you have ever made.

althought it did follow one of the not-so-smart ones...:D

[racer hero]

omg.
that is the smartest post you have ever made.

althought it did follow one of the not-so-smart ones...:D

Psh, I think my "set wind to 0" post was much better. :Looking_a

[Tomhah]

Psh, I think my "set wind to 0" post was much better. :Looking_a

I will always agree on that one :D wind to 0 is the smartest you can ever do :P

[pearcy_2k7]

First time i experienced wind was IGTC at FE3, damn that was completely nuts! All the practice was thrown out the window, it was totally different to drive. Im a rain fan but not wind :P

[Tomhah]

First time i experienced wind was IGTC at FE3, damn that was completely nuts! All the practice was thrown out the window, it was totally different to drive. Im a rain fan but not wind :P


Then, you can imagine how I felt at BL1R, when I didnt even knew it was wind before 15 mins out in my stint :D I thought I had gone mental or something :D

[PMD9409]

My third ever league race (first endu) was that race Pearcy, was freaking awesome!

[z-ro 8]

i heard deko is trying to get cracks put in the surface of KY1 so we can have water seepage in the 250 this year....

[racer hero]

I think we should test it in the KY 125 first...

[pearcy_2k7]

?

[Humbleridderen]

And XRR will be at a disadvantage at south city. It's not going to be even at every track. Instead of complaining about your car not being fast enough go practice to get the most out of the car you chose. It's not the admins fault you chose the car that is at a disadvantage, the schedule was out when you chose the FXR.


This is not meant as a complaint about the car choice. He has already told that he likes to drive with fxr (even he is a pretty good fzr driver) I also feel the same way. We just point out for the league in general, that it seems wrong an unfair to choose to have a disadvantaged car (as yourself is admitting). We just want it to be changed. If we don´t say anything, it is never going to happen.

ps. many times i have heard a lot of discussion about balancing between fzr and xrr, so let fxr drivers make their point too.

I think if this is going to continue, to deliberately choose to make fxr as an disadvantaged car, it is better not to have fxr, but only fzr and xrr. That will make the whole thing much clear and real. Or only one car.

[Tomhah]

FXR is ment to be slower, because it doesnt require any skills. Its a damn easy car to drive compared to FZR and XRR, and thats why it is a little bit slower, because you can drive extremely consistant with it without any problem.

[N!ghtm@re]

FXR is ment to be slower, because it doesnt require any skills. Its a damn easy car to drive compared to FZR and XRR, and thats why it is a little bit slower, because you can drive extremely consistant with it without any problem.

And that's exactly the point which isn't true.
Of course the FXR is generally easier to drive than the FZR or XRR.
But if you want to drive at the limit ( And you have to do this to have any chance with this handicaps) it's not easier than a other car.......

[Tomhah]

And that's exactly the point which isn't true.
Of course the FXR is generally easier to drive than the FZR or XRR.
But if you want to drive at the limit ( And you have to do this to have any chance with this handicaps) it's not easier than a other car.......


It is. end...

And dont think that I havent driven the car... I drove two races last year.
at SO: I took over the car after 30 mins.. we were a lap behind top 10 and were last. After an hour, I was 5th or 8th (cant remember :P), and had the 2nd fastest lap time.
At KY: I started last with a DT. After one or two hours, I was 7th.

Its a damn easy car to drive on the limit, its just to push and push. It doesnt hurt you much if you drive of, and its not possible to spin it. daa'aa! :P

[arco]

Wait a minute... why not give the FXR the advantage for once? It's getting boring to see the FZR win all the time, so to see something else do that would be a breath of fresh air. You do know that in real life racing, when a car has been too dominant, it has happened that the car has been banned or restrictions has been imposed on it?

There been times that I thought I couldn't last for long
But now I think I'm able to carry on
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change gonna come, oh yes it will

hm hm hm hm :tilt:

[pik_d]

Well the XRR has been given a boost (25% -> 24%) and the FXR is in line with the MoE GT2 FXR that was given a boost from the previous MoE season.

The FXR was actually pretty competative at BL1, and might be again at SO and FE.

[Tomhah]

there's no "might", IT IS competive at SO :P And Arco, if you wanna drive FXR, sign up for iTCC!:thumb::)

[Humbleridderen]

You can most say that fxr sometimes can be competative to a very few tracks, but on the most it will always not be. It will never really have any advantage over the fzr and xrr on the tracks normally used in these kind of leagues.

Ps Tomhah, to say, that you don´t need any skill to drive an fxr to the limit. That´s just rubbish. Then you don´t drive to the limit. And what are you really trying to say with that comment? That all fxr drivers just do nothing???? ...and you are sooooo good. Come down to the earth BIG guy!!! :razz: :ufo:

[niels1]

..................................The FXR was actually pretty competative at BL1, and might be again at SO and FE.


3 Hours of Blackwood Grand Prix Reversed (BL1R)
3 Hours of Kyoto GP Long (KY3) w/Boothy chicane
3 Hours of South City Long Reversed (SO4R)
6 Hours of Westhill International Reversed (WE1R)
3 Hours of Fern Bay Gold (FE3)
6 Hours of Aston Historic Reversed (AS4R)
12 Hours of Kyoto National (KY2)

So seeing your point of view the FXR should be only competative on those tracks ?. It might be 3 out of 7 tracks were there is a change the FXR can ge competative. On Kyoto for instances the lap difference is roughly around 2 seconds a lap. That is just too much. Now we might get close in the other 3 races, woohoo i am excited.

Now serious though you can agrue about it for all in eternity but it wont solve it. The restrictions in the FXR are too much on any track. All a FXR team can do is site out and wait until the guy in front makes a mistake. That aint competative, thats due to restriction.

Then people say you need to push it more. Well the car wont go any faster if I try too. The fastest lape currently in a FXR is 2.24.49. As I did a 2.24.31 as a pb and I have seen a 2.23.8 last night. What I am saying is there isnt any room anymore to push. Now what was the best time last night ? Ahh found it 2.22.24, that is more then 1 seconds a lape.

there's no "might", IT IS competive at SO :P And Arco, if you wanna drive FXR, sign up for iTCC!:thumb::)

Now stop saying the FXR is competitve because it isnt. Then there are guys saying well thats you choice of car so live with it. Or go drive the drive the iTCC.
So its competative on SO ?, thats 1 track out of 7. Its getting better by the minute.
Whats the point then having the car in the series if it aint competative ?.

If it was competative then people will use that car because as they say its easier to drive. Offcourse its easier to drive but due to that fact we make it not competative so people will pick the FZR or XRR ?. Sorry but thats bullocks. Drop the restriction from 23 to 22 and it still will be a challenge to keep up with the FZR or XRR. But at least we have a change of getting them.

As were we are now the FXR isnt gonna get anywhere but getting in the way, especially on the large tracks.

[pik_d]

This is probably going to sound rude, but only because I'm too tired to not be blunt.

The better teams with the faster drivers chose the XRR (CoRe) and FZR (take your pick). Most of the FXR teams were going to be slower anyway, in my opinion. If a faster team had chosen the FXR it would appear more competitive because it had drivers who could go faster in it.

Also, if you made the FXR anywhere close to the other two at KY then it would absolutely dominate everywhere else (except for being even at AS). That would just be the same problem, though with the cars switched.

And finally, the harder cars to master should be more rewarding. The FXR is so much easier to get up to 98-99% than the other two (though "no skill" is too far ;) ). I think the balancing is just about perfect for GT2, the FZR and XRR are imho just about equally hard in GT2 spec (not like GT1 where the XRR is an animal) and they seem pretty even here. CoRe could win just as easily as any number of FZR teams, maybe even EER (another XRR team) if they step up their game to how quick they were in Round 1.

Edit: added more rantings

The fastest lape currently in a FXR is 2.24.49. As I did a 2.24.31 as a pb and I have seen a 2.24.12 last night. What I am saying is there isnt any room anymore to push. Now what was the best time last night ? Ahh found it 2.22.24, that is more then 2 seconds a lape.
No, M.Riis did a 2:23.82 and L.White did a 2:23.87 in the FXR in qualifying group 2.

The 2:22.24 was done by someone who has been in MoE and drove for F1RST. The fastest FZR time by someone who has never been in MoE was Tommy's 2:22.89, though My3id's N. McEvoy did a 2:22.62 and SCP's I. Todorovic did a 2:22.78. The FXR times are only about a second slower than these times.

The fastest XRR time by someone who has never driven MoE was a 2:23.08 by Optix's V.Verstreken, though of course Ken did a 2:22.67. The fastest FXR was 1.15 seconds off that.

The FXR is not more than two seconds a lap off pace here in the hands of a capable driver.

[Humbleridderen]

pik_d: I don´t think you are rude, you try to put an argument and that is fine :)


The better teams with the faster drivers chose the XRR (CoRe) and FZR (take your pick). Most of the FXR teams were going to be slower anyway, in my opinion. If a faster team had chosen the FXR it would appear more competitive because it had drivers who could go faster in it.

I think you base your argument on false datas. I think that there are pretty good drivers in some of the fxr teams, but maybe you don´t see it, because they drive in a car who has too much restriction.

[QUOTE=pik_d;1325142] if you made the FXR anywhere close to the other two at KY then it would absolutely dominate everywhere else (except for being even at AS). That would just be the same problem, though with the cars switched.[/COLOR]

Here I also think that you are wrong. To be really competative to fzr and xrr you would need 2% less air intake restriction. So if you reduce it with 1%, it wil still be hard for the fxr to match the fzr and xrr.

[Humbleridderen]

I have an idea:
If we could make some good drivers making a test in an fxr for 10 laps for example.The best drivers we know in this league could race (in a race situation) the fxr and try to make some good times.. Then we would know what is the real situation.

Racerhero, tomhah etc--show what you are made of.

I say 10 laps in the same layout (w/ boothy chicane) as in GTAL, because i don´t want a test in a hotlap set, which is not made for endurances. And there shouldn´t be used r2 in front, because that is not realistic for an endurance in a FXR.

After that save the replay and publish it to see, if there is any cutting etc.

Ps- They could also let others try their set. maybe just swapping so we don´t steel their briliiant set.

I can set a 10 laps race up at our 7karat server at 20 UTC tonight and tomorrow. Just come and we save the replays and publish them.

[Gil07]

Are you seriously arguing about this? If you chose FXR, you get the slower, easy to drive car. Pick one of the others, then you need skill to drive it fast. If you don't have that skill, you drive FXR and try to be consistent. Simples.

[fadeaway]

Here is some data from first hand: I drove it 23.67 with mouse on my low-fps pc, and i usually get around .5 - 1.5 sec off when i get behind wheel on normal pc. I'm not MoE driver, i drove setup from setupgrid that i modified little bit for GT2, so not alien set, not alien driver and still i believe fx2 with current restrictions can go in 22.
FX2 is not that slow, but this is track where FX2 is in most disadvantage (of all GTAL tracks), make peace with that and practice more ;)

[Humbleridderen]

Here is some data from first hand: I drove it 23.67 with mouse on my low-fps pc, and i usually get around .5 - 1.5 sec off when i get behind wheel on normal pc. I'm not MoE driver, i drove setup from setupgrid that i modified little bit for GT2, so not alien set, not alien driver and still i believe fx2 with current restrictions can go in 22.
FX2 is not that slow, but this is track where FX2 is in most disadvantage (of all GTAL tracks), make peace with that and practice more ;)

Yes, i believe you. I also think we can come down to 2.22. high, with low fuel, maybe not for many laps. But what is fzr doing? Can they race with R2/r2 tyres and what are their laptimes?

Show me a replay of what you are doing. Use the wheel too.

Some us us can also do 2.23.67, even low 23, with a amateur set, but it is still to slow compared to the other cars, i think.

Or come tonight at our server. 7karat server at 20 utc. Best because we are talking about race sets, not hotlap sets.

I just want to have things in the right perspective, because it would be best if we all felt it was a fair league in general. Some tracks could be better for one car than the other, but not like that one car is very few times at the podium compared to the others, when we see the final overall results.

I HAVE EDITED THIS POST A LOT

[ivantod]

are you seriously arguing about this? If you chose fxr, you get the slower, easy to drive car. Pick one of the others, then you need skill to drive it fast. If you don't have that skill, you drive fxr and try to be consistent. Simples.

+1

[arco]

there's no "might", IT IS competive at SO :P And Arco, if you wanna drive FXR, sign up for iTCC!:thumb::)
Nah, haven't really been driving it for ages, so I'm just as a slow poke in it now as in the other GT cars. :D

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Honestly, I don't really understand why restriction are being discussed in the middle of the season. We are all mature guys(at least, I hope so), and by signing-in with a specific car we all knew that we had to accept that this car could be slower/faster than the other ones on some tracks. It's simple as that.

If you feel that you'll be slower at R2(and I know the feeling, since I was on FXR last season too), just wait for a RWD-unfriendly track... SO4R ie:thumb:

[Tomhah]

Mister humbleridderen... I'll be honoured to drive the FXR, to show you that its not the car, but the drivers. Too bad we chose FZR... I will gladly practise for one of the GTAL rounds with the FXR! ;) The FXR also shouldnt be as fast because IT IS easy to drive on the limit. And yes, I do drive it on the limit... If I didnt, I wouldnt had the 2nd fastest lap last year at SO, only beaten by spdo. And yes, I do know that SO is the best track for FXR, but I was a slow ass back then :P Seariously... FXR is competitive enough.

[tmehlinger]

;1325404']Honestly, I don't really understand why restriction are being discussed in the middle of the season. We are all mature guys(at least, I hope so), and by signing-in with a specific car we all knew that we had to accept that this car could be slower/faster than the other ones on some tracks. It's simple as that.

Every time I look back at this thread and see the butthurt FXR argument dragging on, I'm going to re-quote this post.

[AstroBoy]

Omg fxr serious biznusss!

[PMD9409]

Just ran 10 laps (first ever 10 mind you, and I don't drive FXR), and can run low 24s right from the start. Judging by the test race yesterday the FZRs were running 23s to 24s the first 45 minutes, so I don't see how the FXR is THAT slow since the times will just drop from that low 24 to at least a low 23 if not a 22 by the end of the hour.

*This was on 62% fuel and not the greatest of sets (R3/R2 race set).

[niels1]

Oke made your point. Its up to the drivers then :razz:

[R.Kolz]

Seariously...

To Mr. Norway:

"Regel nr. 1 om huller: Når du står i et, så hold op med at grave.."

[z-ro 8]

i think that's the 5th time tommy has told everyone he had the 2nd fastest lap in FXR.........:D

[Humbleridderen]

Just ran 10 laps (first ever 10 mind you, and I don't drive FXR), and can run low 24s right from the start. Judging by the test race yesterday the FZRs were running 23s to 24s the first 45 minutes, so I don't see how the FXR is THAT slow since the times will just drop from that low 24 to at least a low 23 if not a 22 by the end of the hour.

*This was on 62% fuel and not the greatest of sets (R3/R2 race set).

thx for showing up, PMD9409 and ivantod and martin s.

But i really didn´t get wiser than I was before, because these times i already new. I haven´t yet seen a 22. I think some of the very best drivers can do it, but it is really not many. As a fxr driver you need to be among the very best in the world to set a 22 time. I would not say the same for fzr and xrr drivers as i have seen a lot of 22 times from those cars.

what is the fastest time by a fzr/xrr driver in this league?

[manneF1]

Well, my set is sucky and i have problems to get R2/R3 combination last:)

Just tryed to forgot those FXR fights

[PMD9409]

thx for showing up, PMD9409

But i really didn´t get wiser than I was before, because these times i already new. I haven´t yet seen a 22. I think some of the very best drivers can do it, but it is really not many. As a fxr driver you need to be among the very best in the world to set a 22 time. I would not say the same for fzr and xrr drivers as i have seen a lot of 22 times from those cars.

what is the fastest time by a fzr/xrr driver in this league?

Those cars are much more difficult to drive and with this being an amatuer league you won't see constant 22's from drivers. The FXR is much easier to drive on the limit and after the tires start to cool down and the fuel becomes lighter, the car will easily be able to do low 23s, if not 22s. Being able to do this consistently is how you win the race.

We should all know the car/team that does the fastest times don't always win, there are so many variables to endurance racing.

[hyntty]

Who created this thread :D:D:D

[hyntty]

"Regel nr. 1 om huller: Når du står i et, så hold op med at grave.."

:schwitz:

Inglish from naow on bitte. Scandinavian is gay.

[AjRose]

Just stay consistent and let the other guys make mistakes, that's the only way to do well in FXR really. TDRT did it for a while and it payed off well (IGTC 2008).

+1 Besides the FXR is capable of a 1 stop race.

[Tomhah]

LOL kolz, Im not in any hole. This is the slowest track for FXR, and its just right there, if you take a look at what Phil did. And z-ro, I had the 2nd fastest time in GTAL at SO last year with a FXR :D LOL xD

nah, but you should all see the point and take a look at what Phil Diaz said. :)

[hyntty]

LOL kolz, Im not in any hole.

I think he meant "if you keep diggin that hole you'll soon be unable to climb out"

IDK and IDGAF. Danish is weird.

[PMD9409]

Xcite does have a point...

[racer hero]

Why is it NDR's responsibility to check every drivers background? It's partially NDR's fault for not letting you know, but you should have known better in the first place not to use a driver which has been in MoE.

[racer hero]

LOL kolz, Im not in any hole. This is the slowest track for FXR, and its just right there, if you take a look at what Phil did. And z-ro, I had the 2nd fastest time in GTAL at SO last year with a FXR :D LOL xD

nah, but you should all see the point and take a look at what Phil Diaz said. :)

FXR was also dropped 1% from last year, so its capable of even faster this year!

[kiste]

He was drivin ca. 12 minths ago....

[Jakg]

FXR is going to be slower - if you take a car and add 4WD, you add extra weight via diffs etc, and those extra spinning things means more transmission loss and less power to the wheels. The advantage is you can get the power down earlier - however with "only" 500 HP from a laggy turbo and a smooth slick surface, that doesn't outweigh the disadvantage for pure speed.

The advantage is you can be much more consistent in an FXR - too much throttle in an FZR and you have 250 BHP per wheel pushing you anywhere but straight, too much throttle in an FXR and you have 125 BHP per wheel at the back doing the same, but 125 BHP at the front pulling you forward, counteracting it. Similarly the FXR is also slightly easier on tyres because theres less power willing to burn rubber to each individual wheel.

You can't compare that in all out times the FXR is slower... because it should be. On a long race level they should be closer, but still the FXR should be slower because it's easier and more consistent. What'd be the point in getting in an FZR and running the risk of spinning when you can run in an FXR at the same pace with reduced risk?

If I was going to drive an endurance race i'd pick an FXR for the first few goes - because while I'm not exactly shit the 0.5 seconds I might lose one lap could be more than made up by the 20 seconds I lose spinning off into a wall and the subsequent 3 minute lap I make limping back to the pits. If I got consistency down then it's time to add more risk and try to get that extra 0.5 seconds.

The point of a class is that the cars are different - each car SHOULD have advantages and disadvantages. You can't chose the easy option and the bitch because it's hard to win all the time.

<uber post>

[tmehlinger]

He was drivin ca. 12 minths ago....

Point being? That somehow changes the fact that he had driven in MoE before he set a lap in GTAL?

[kiste]

if i am right, then the rules say in the last 6months?

[boothy]

If you have to ask us about what the rules say, you haven't read them.

"The decision will be based on the following factors: Performance in the participated IGTC or MoE Rounds, relevant recent (approximately 6 months) league experience, and relevant statistics as found on LFS World."

Also, you can't just assume that Brunzel was allowed to race, as the rules say he is automatically ineligible and cannot race unless you get permission. If NDR don't answer, ask again closer to the time until they answer. His pace from his MoE stint and the other results I can see for him makes me think he's an advanced driver and shouldn't be racing.

[J@tko]

FXR is going to be slower - if you take a car and add 4WD, you add extra weight via diffs etc, and those extra spinning things means more transmission loss and less power to the wheels. The advantage is you can get the power down earlier - however with "only" 500 HP from a laggy turbo and a smooth slick surface, that doesn't outweigh the disadvantage for pure speed.

The advantage is you can be much more consistent in an FXR - too much throttle in an FZR and you have 250 BHP per wheel pushing you anywhere but straight, too much throttle in an FXR and you have 125 BHP per wheel at the back doing the same, but 125 BHP at the front pulling you forward, counteracting it. Similarly the FXR is also slightly easier on tyres because theres less power willing to burn rubber to each individual wheel.

You can't compare that in all out times the FXR is slower... because it should be. On a long race level they should be closer, but still the FXR should be slower because it's easier and more consistent. What'd be the point in getting in an FZR and running the risk of spinning when you can run in an FXR at the same pace with reduced risk?

If I was going to drive an endurance race i'd pick an FXR for the first few goes - because while I'm not exactly shit the 0.5 seconds I might lose one lap could be more than made up by the 20 seconds I lose spinning off into a wall and the subsequent 3 minute lap I make limping back to the pits. If I got consistency down then it's time to add more risk and try to get that extra 0.5 seconds.

The point of a class is that the cars are different - each car SHOULD have advantages and disadvantages. You can't chose the easy option and the bitch because it's hard to win all the time.

<uber post>
You've kinda completely and totally missed the boat there :D

We know the FXR is slower NORMALLY. We've restricted the cars and people are complaining the restriction is too harsh.

[Jakg]

It could be worse. At least I didnt get "Live For Speed" and "Linux From Scratch" confused like one poster...

[Trekkerfahrer]

Because of the thing with maddin15:

Martin is an Open Wheel driver, not a GTR driver... look at his WRs! In The last time there were only sprint races in the City Liga. So i think his endurance capability is not good.
Next point is, that maddin had a long break from LFS and only drove City Liga in that phase.
And my last point:
Kenneth and Tommy are very similar with Martins skills, so i think if Martin is not allowed to drive, you should diqualify them too from season.
Do you have rules or not? At the moment you should think about them, because you made exceptions for 2 advanced drivers for maybe friends, and now there is a guy from our team who had no endurance experience in the last year and you say "no".

I think you have two options now:
- DQ the other advanced drivers from GTAL
- let Martin drive

You HAVE TO make a decision of this two options, otherwise you loose your trustworthiness and you will blow up the spirit of the league.
The idea of this league was to give "not MoE and IGTC Teams" a place to enhance their endurance capabilities and we from Xcite are not good in this section atm. We want to learn from faster drivers and this is only possible, if they are IN the team. Other teams will show you the middlefinger.

[CSF]

I'm not very surprised that you have not read the rules, but maybe you should? Jesus its not hard.

[tmehlinger]

So i think his endurance capability is not good.

Then wtf are you arguing for? If you "think his endurance capability is not good" wouldn't you be better served find a good driver who doesn't contravene the rules? Your straw man argument isn't fooling anyone.

[racer hero]

Because of the thing with maddin15:

Martin is an Open Wheel driver, not a GTR driver... look at his WRs! In The last time there were only sprint races in the City Liga. So i think his endurance capability is not good.
Next point is, that maddin had a long break from LFS and only drove City Liga in that phase.
And my last point:
Kenneth and Tommy are very similar with Martins skills, so i think if Martin is not allowed to drive, you should diqualify them too from season.
Do you have rules or not? At the moment you should think about them, because you made exceptions for 2 advanced drivers for maybe friends, and now there is a guy from our team who had no endurance experience in the last year and you say "no".

I think you have two options now:
- DQ the other advanced drivers from GTAL
- let Martin drive

You HAVE TO make a decision of this two options, otherwise you loose your trustworthiness and you will blow up the spirit of the league.
The idea of this league was to give "not MoE and IGTC Teams" a place to enhance their endurance capabilities and we from Xcite are not good in this section atm. We want to learn from faster drivers and this is only possible, if they are IN the team. Other teams will show you the middlefinger.

It's funny how you try to force Deko into a decision. There is no intimidating Deko, he doesn't care if people don't like him, and that is what makes him a good admin. Kthx. :thumbsup:

[Trekkerfahrer]

It's funny how you try to force Deko into a decision. There is no intimidating Deko, he doesn't care if people don't like him, and that is what makes him a good admin. Kthx. :thumbsup:

http://www.spdoracing.com/eventdb/driver/Racer+hero
http://www.spdoracing.com/eventdb/driver/Maddin15

Okay, now tell me where it is a good decision?
You have more wins, poles and podiums in a shorter time dude!

Ah, and i forgot your good place in following IGTC race:
http://www.spdoracing.com/eventdb/event/910

[racer hero]

And I have almost double the races that he has. I remember us going through a simular situation with you last year, now you know how it feels, and the IGTC race was FXR.

[Trekkerfahrer]

And I have almost double the races that he has. I remember us going through a simular situation with you last year, now you know how it feels.

The main reason why we DQed you is that you tried to cheat us in the Test Event. The other thing was another rulebook we had compared to the actual ;)

And FXR is not a reason ;) GTR Endurance is GTR Endurance

[dekojester]

Okay folks, an appeal has been recieved reagarding the matter, and we will now deal with it and come to a decision shortly.

It MUST be known that favourites are not played here. We are what I like to call "Equal Opportunity Offenders": we don't care who you are, we will enforce rules. And in the case of a judgement call which it is whether or not an MoE or IGTC driver should be allowed into GTAL there is room interpretation - of stats, recorded experiences, etc.

If you would like to contest a decision, please do it in a civilised manner. Attacking any other driver for "getting through the same rule but us not" or us admins for "playing favourites" is certainly not acceptable, and quite on the verge of unsporting behaviour.

I, and the rest of NDR, will tolerate ONLY polite, courteous discussion to achieve a common goal: You to get what you wish to get, within our rules as they are enforced.

dekojester.

[CSF]

http://www.spdoracing.com/eventdb/driver/racer+hero
http://www.spdoracing.com/eventdb/driver/maddin15

okay, now tell me where it is a good decision?
You have more wins, poles and podiums in a shorter time dude!

Ah, and i forgot your good place in following igtc race:
http://www.spdoracing.com/eventdb/event/910



omfg you learned how to use spdo database.... You all growed up trekker maybe you might be a competent non hypocritical numpty now!!!!!!!1!!!

[Trekkerfahrer]

Okay folks, an appeal has been recieved reagarding the matter, and we will now deal with it and come to a decision shortly.

It MUST be known that favourites are not played here. We are what I like to call "Equal Opportunity Offenders": we don't care who you are, we will enforce rules. And in the case of a judgement call which it is whether or not an MoE or IGTC driver should be allowed into GTAL there is room interpretation - of stats, recorded experiences, etc.

If you would like to contest a decision, please do it in a civilised manner. Attacking any other driver for "getting through the same rule but us not" or us admins for "playing favourites" is certainly not acceptable, and quite on the verge of unsporting behaviour.

I, and the rest of NDR, will tolerate ONLY polite, courteous discussion to achieve a common goal: You to get what you wish to get, within our rules as they are enforced.

dekojester.

Then DO somthing and do not talk around the things.... We got 3 different main reasons why he is not allowed to drive. So what is the main reason now? Is it his open wheel WRs? Is it his speed? Or is it why he only drove one nedurance event in the last two years?

We feel like in an unemployment agency now....

[Fuse5]

Or is it why he only drove one nedurance event in the last two years?

Last time around it was one endu event in the last year.
Stop changing your own argument and then ask for the same in return.

[dekojester]

Then DO somthing and do not talk around the things.... We got 3 different main reasons why he is not allowed to drive. So what is the main reason now? Is it his open wheel WRs? Is it his speed? Or is it why he only drove one nedurance event in the last two years?

We feel like in an unemployment agency now....

I have stated the reasons for our choice to not permit him entry in the email sent to the team, and the IM conversation with you regarding it.

It involves the experiences we find the driver to have had by looking at his statistics and results on LFSWorld and spdoEventdb. It involves the pace shown in events he has participated in.

The appeal process provides opportunities to prove your side of it in an attempt to reverse the decision.

The other 27 teams in the league do not need to know all the details regarding this situation, simply because this conversation is going on longer in public than it should be, which can and will provide a distraction to the other teams.

Further posts regarding this situation will be removed from this thread.

d.

[Trekkerfahrer]

I have stated the reasons for our choice to not permit him entry in the email sent to the team, and the IM conversation with you regarding it.

It involves the experiences we find the driver to have had by looking at his statistics and results on LFSWorld and spdoEventdb. It involves the pace shown in events he has participated in.

The appeal process provides opportunities to prove your side of it in an attempt to reverse the decision.

The other 27 teams in the league do not need to know all the details regarding this situation, simply because this conversation is going on longer in public than it should be, which can and will provide a distraction to the other teams.

Further posts regarding this situation will be removed from this thread.

d.

Write to me on MSN

[Cawwa]

What a fuzz over allmost nothing?!
All in here knows and accept that the big teams use GTAL to set less experienced racers in endurance racing heat. I just don't understand why not Racer Hero or Tommy (or Maddin) can race here. For sure they need this experience for reasons only the team themselves know. I can't see any alien with a lot of MoE experience have any desire to drive here, maybe to help out with a helping hand, but I don't think they see any glory to win in GTAL among amateurs.
They'll probably wount have the time to do any praccy here since they'll be ocupied with MoE anyway.

[MatzeXX]

what a fuzz over allmost nothing?!
All in here knows and accept that the big teams use gtal to set less experienced racers in endurance racing heat. I just don't understand why not racer hero or tommy (or maddin) can race here. For sure they need this experience for reasons only the team themselves know. I can't see any alien with a lot of moe experience have any desire to drive here, maybe to help out with a helping hand, but i don't think they see any glory to win in gtal among amateurs.
They'll probably wount have the time to do any praccy here since they'll be ocupied with moe anyway.

+1

[Tomhah]

And my last point:
Kenneth and Tommy are very similar with Martins skills, so i think if Martin is not allowed to drive, you should diqualify them too from season.
Do you have rules or not? At the moment you should think about them, because you made exceptions for 2 advanced drivers for maybe friends, and now there is a guy from our team who had no endurance experience in the last year and you say "no".

I think you have two options now:
- DQ the other advanced drivers from GTAL
- let Martin drive

You HAVE TO make a decision of this two options, otherwise you loose your trustworthiness and you will blow up the spirit of the league.
The idea of this league was to give "not MoE and IGTC Teams" a place to enhance their endurance capabilities and we from Xcite are not good in this section atm. We want to learn from faster drivers and this is only possible, if they are IN the team. Other teams will show you the middlefinger.

Tell me... When did I become an "advanced" driver? I have NEVER done any IGTC or MoE league! I have never won any internetional league!

Please get FACTS before posting anything about me. I feel you guys just run over me, saying that I should be DQ'd for following the rules. Nice guys, thanks, I really apprecitate that.

[boothy]

But thats only my opinion

Just as well, because your post and many others are a lot of shite. NDR deal with rules and facts, not silly opinions.

[tmehlinger]

if they can race in the GTAL it should also be possible for Maddin15 to race IMO because kiste added him to the line up about 2 or 3 months ago and nobody said anything against it at this time ;)

For the love of god, read the rules.


5. Should a driver who is not considered an Advanced Driver be listed on a team’s GTAL Roster, and races in a GTAL race, but then go on to race in IGTC or MoE, that driver will be allowed to race in GTAL for the remainder of the current season. Should the driver have not made a GTAL start prior to taking part in an IGTC or MoE race, then Rule IV.2 will be enacted.


Okay, so Ken is clear.


[this space intentionally left blank]


Hey, look at that! There's no rule prohibiting Tommy based on his presence on an IGTC/MoE roster!

Your opinion is totally irrelevant. They fall clear of the rules so that's all there is to it.

[Maddin15]

oh oh oh ....

really nice desiscion guys =)

if someone told me that i can´t drive GTAL because im a advanced driver i must laugh so loud.

If someone set me intoo the linu up and no admin says anyhting about it than i have too wonder why you say something after i drive a bad pole position lap.

Sorry but if i was really an advanced driver.. than i drive 21 constently in qualyfication and not 22 deep.

Well another fact is that im not faster than thoose other drivers here. Nothing about Tomhah oder O Keefe .. I dont know who it was on bl1 but i know that someone of booths was faster than me in the quali.. and thats over 3 tenths as my personal best was that i drove afte r6 hours of practesing. SO now i have me to ask why i get an "advanced driver" and the other guys not.

Well another point is that this leagu is an endurance and a TEAM challenge. So i dont think that 1 fast driver can beat the whole leage alone.
Or you think i can drive in 1 hour so fast that the other people who drive in my team can shake the balls after my pitstop? I don´t think so ;)

Yeah ok maybe Xcite make some mistakes but i think thoose admins do the same mistakes. But you know, as an admin you have more weight on your shoulders and i think an admin cant makes mistakes like this.

If i where admin here i would ask by myself "man ... why i even saw those driver befor they raced"
and thats is another fact. Why you dont saw me befor the 1st race in the line up and say no to me? Now the whole team must maybe change there plans.

I dont know if its right what you do but i hope you give me a chance then i know im not faster than thoose other guys here and the reason why i would driving here is because i like the system and i would help my team and want improve my skill in endurance race to maybe race with my team next year in MoE. Nad i wanna have fun with other guys they so fast like me =)

Maddin

PS: Sorry for my bad english but i do my best =)

[MatzeXX]

Okay, so Ken is clear.

so, really? http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/cwh5-b.png

[CrAZySkyPimp]

Though, I think that both Tommy and Ken are too fast and too experienced for GTAL (Yes you guys are :P) Xcite should've understood that a no-reply doesn't mean a driver is clear to race. That's common sence. Or just take contact with some admin, there plenty of ways to do that. Pm here on the forums, IRC, msn/icq/skype etc.

[TexasLTU]

Big +1 of what Maddin said.

[pik_d]

Though, I think that both Tommy and Ken are too fast and too experienced for GTAL (Yes you guys are :P) Xcite should've understood that a no-reply doesn't mean a driver is clear to race. That's common sence. Or just take contact with some admin, there plenty of ways to do that. Pm here on the forums, IRC, msn/icq/skype etc.
I think the bold part is really important here. Whether or not Maddin15 is more or less of an advanced driver than Ken is less of an issue as they're making it out to be.

Maddin15 might still get cleared, but he was still an unauthorized driver in qualifying 1 and so that lap will probably still be disqualified. Note "unauthorized" vs. "advanced". XCite screwed up big time and are trying to make it look like they're the victims here, and that's not fair to NDR.

Yes, NDR screwed up (as they admitted), but you guys (XCite) used a driver that hadn't been accepted and that decision is fully your fault.

[kiste]

we didnt say that we make a big victim with that qualytime...
Only the reason isnt understandable for us. We have read the rules. and it is not our mistake if the admins didnt reply that he isnt authorizied to race...
We added four drivers to the line up after the first line up. One time we get an answer. thats why we touhgt it is all okay that we can drive with ALL driver in the line-up...
If they say that he isnt allowed we hasnt never let him drive....

[niall09]

Why the hell is Tommy being dragged through all the shit here? He has done NO IGTC or MoE races. I have a feeling that if he wasn't in a well respected team that there would be no problems.

People have to remember that being fast does not equal being experienced. I think this league is great for guys like Tommy/Kenneth to build experience so they can be confident racing in MoE / IGTC.

Also, Xcite guys, ye should have followed up your message to admins if they didn't reply. I believe that it's mostly your fault. And, you still have 1 more quali session to get that pole ;)

[Cawwa]

X-site, manager and drivers, why bring it up here in the public forum? Why don't you file a complaint to NDR and let them make the descision?
It's too much bs in this thread. Tommy and Racer Hero have got their permision to race .... read the rules guys!!

I have no idea if NDR descides to let Maddin drive or not ... but at the end of the day it's THEIR descision!!

[Maddin15]

well the easiest way now is to disq the first qualy lap of me and let me drive.. well thats a compromiss.

Both makes mistakes so... we say now .. ok lets forgett this shit.. disq. our qualy time and let maddin drive..

i think thats the best desiscion...

ah god damn iti hate it to wriet english with thoose english skills :D

[J@tko]

Why the hell is Tommy being dragged through all the shit here? He has done NO IGTC or MoE races. I have a feeling that if he wasn't in a well respected team that there would be no problems.

People have to remember that being fast does not equal being experienced. I think this league is great for guys like Tommy/Kenneth to build experience so they can be confident racing in MoE / IGTC.

:nod:

I think one of the major problems is that both Ken and Tommy are now in "major" LFS teams, and so the likleyhood of them getting regular IGTC/MoE Racing isn't that high. If they were in slightly less "good" teams, then they'd be straight into the MoE/IGTC squads and not need to be in GTAL. You've got to remember that this is meant to give people EXPERIENCE of Endurance Racing, not to see who has the BEST team :shrug:

If Tommy/Ken aren't going to get it in MoE/IGTC, then where are they going to get it?

Sure, Ken drove MoE last race, but I don't think that'll be a very regular occurance [perhaps apart from 24h race], and he wasn't in any of their MoE squads up till the last round.

[pearcy_2k7]

:nod:

I think one of the major problems is that both Ken and Tommy are now in "major" LFS teams, and so the likleyhood of them getting regular IGTC/MoE Racing isn't that high. If they were in slightly less "good" teams, then they'd be straight into the MoE/IGTC squads and not need to be in GTAL. You've got to remember that this is meant to give people EXPERIENCE of Endurance Racing, not to see who has the BEST team :shrug:

If Tommy/Ken aren't going to get it in MoE/IGTC, then where are they going to get it?

Sure, Ken drove MoE last race, but I don't think that'll be a very regular occurance [perhaps apart from 24h race], and he wasn't in any of their MoE squads up till the last round.

And why do you think that was sherlock? So he could drive GTAL maybe? Give your head a shake, Ken is certainly good enough for CoRe GT2 and everyone knows it, they just didn't put him in because he wanted to go into GTAL against 3 year olds so he can actually get a win.

Tommy id say is a different story but he was on the F1RST GT1 roster last race, apparently 1 GTAL race in a GT2 FZR prepares you to drive a GT1 XRR in MoE, all this step up crap is bollox for those two, it really isn't that much different and it really isn't needed imo.

[Tomhah]

I was a backup and didnt drive. Neither did I think I was gonna do MoE this season when I started in GTAL. The story is a bit different now, and that is why (as said) I am thinking of retire from GTAL. If I'm doing MoE on regulary the rest of the season, I see no point in driving GTAL on my side. I am here to learn to adjust the car and my driving through stints, and to be more consistant. But if Im driving in a "bigger" league, there's no point for me to drive here anymore. But until that happends, Im still here. ;)

[banshee56]

And why do you think that was sherlock? So he could drive GTAL maybe? Give your head a shake, Ken is certainly good enough for CoRe GT2 and everyone knows it, they just didn't put him in because he wanted to go into GTAL against 3 year olds so he can actually get a win.

This was certainly not the case. We knew Ken was fast, but he didn't really have any experience in endurance racing, which we all know is more than just being able to drive consitantly for an hour at a time without crashing too much. He needed to get the other experience of learning to adapt to a setup that isn't necessarily his "ideal" setup and to work with another person on strategy, etc.

I do have to admit, though, that it's becoming clear that Ken will only drive this season in GTAL as he is showing the speed needed for MoE GT2.

[pearcy_2k7]

This was certainly not the case. We knew Ken was fast, but he didn't really have any experience in endurance racing, which we all know is more than just being able to drive consitantly for an hour at a time without crashing too much. He needed to get the other experience of learning to adapt to a setup that isn't necessarily his "ideal" setup and to work with another person on strategy, etc.

I do have to admit, though, that it's becoming clear that Ken will only drive this season in GTAL as he is showing the speed needed for MoE GT2.

You really can't be serious, Ken is up there with the most active league drivers in LFS, hes done IGTC before, what more does he need? Hes the only driver in your MoE roster thats "had" to drive GTAL yet i bet hes in a better position pace wise than most of those guys were when they had their first race in IGTC or MoE. Plus you guys aren't exactly having the best of luck this season, the one team in MoE i wouldn't be worried about messing things up for is CoRe, so why you didn't chuck him in i have no idea, he must have come on leaps and bounds after that 1 race he did in GTAL /sarcasm. I know he's within the rules, that doesn't mean whats happened is right, i for one knew that as soon as he did his first GTAL race you'd chuck him in the GT2 car oh and look, hes was pretty much equal with the fastest lap in your GT2 team, you must think were all stupid.

And don't start about race craft, because that will already be there from the 2 years of pickup and normal league racing, if it isn't then theres no hope for him at all. He won't learn it in GTAL more than any other league.

[PMD9409]

Just gonna throw this out there, we were short on drivers for Westhill. Ken didn't even know he'd be racing until the saturday before Q1.

But thats cool that you always like to attack us and find little 'holes' in our team that are really trying to cheat the system or something when we truely are not.

[racer hero]

Okay, so I'm in GTAL because I (IIII) I want to win, nothing to do with CoRe. Sure, say I am glory seaking, but theres nothing wrong with it. I am within the rules, therefore I can drive. kthxbai.

[pik_d]

I am gonna quote these before one of his teammates seems them and tells him to edit them out :smileypul

Okay, so I'm in GTAL because I (IIII) I want to win, nothing to do with CoRe. Sure, say I am glory seaking, but theres nothing wrong with it. I am within the rules, therefore I can drive. kthxbai.
You guys weren't catching the safety car, I was horning and pushing you to try and signal to go...

[Fuse5]

Okay, so I'm in GTAL because I (IIII) I want to win, nothing to do with CoRe. Sure, say I am glory seaking, but theres nothing wrong with it. I am within the rules, therefore I can drive. kthxbai.

Don't worry Ken, this race showed fairly well why you should be in GTAL.

[ivantod]

Car 18 and 04 are alongside on the run to T1, 04 moves right, 18 holds his line. Car 18 pushed into grass and spins losing many places.

Car 04 - Causing an avoidable incident - 30s Time penalty (post-race DT conversion)

Lets discuss about this one.I feel that this league turns into wrong direction.
Car 04 DID NOT CAUSE ANY INCIDENT !!!!

[J@tko]

Lets discuss about this one.I feel that this league turns into wrong direction.
Car 04 DID NOT CAUSE ANY INCIDENT !!!!
Huh?

Have you seen the replay? You force deadline onto the grass in the braking zone when you have loads of room to your right :shrug:

BTW d, 04 moves left, not right ;)

[Wilko868]

Lets discuss about this one.I feel that this league turns into wrong direction.
Car 04 DID NOT CAUSE ANY INCIDENT !!!!
You had a ton of room to your right hand side where you could have given the Deadline car to your left a bit of room, but you decided not to and shove him off into the grass. Why wouldn't that be a penalty?

[ivantod]

yes,i saw replay,and i didnt forced him,he choose to go there,it was his decision to go there.It is stupid to punish someone for someones else mistake.....

[Wilko868]

yes,i saw replay,and i didnt forced him,he choose to go there,it was his decision to go there.It is stupid to punish someone for someones else mistake.....
No, he was side by side with you and had more than significant overlap with you from the start line. You should have given him room.

[ivantod]

+30 sec on SC finished race is a bit too harsh.

[J@tko]

:shrug:

[ivantod]

as i said before,he choose to go there !I didnt have nothing with this !
This screenshot is one second before your screenshot,and tyres dont have traction on grass.

[J@tko]

and tyres dont have traction on grass.
End of discussion.

What's he going to do there? He can either turn right or brake. Turn right and he hits you. Brakes and he spins.

[ivantod]

he was on grass !!! Before brake point !!!

End of discussion.

What's he going to do there? He can either turn right or brake. Turn right and he hits you. Brakes and he spins.

Maybe lift off ????

[Wilko868]

he was on grass !!! Before brake point !!!



Maybe lift off ????
No........he was alongside you from the green flag. He had every right to that line and you shouldn't have shoved him off. The fact that he was on the grass before the braking zone proves you weren't giving him the room required.

[J@tko]

Maybe lift off ????
How is that going to help? Seb's there :shrug: There's no way lifting off will get him behind seb before the braking point.

[ivantod]

and where was Tomy?On my right side.This one is stupidiest decision ever in history of NDR

Why do U guys hate me?Is it because i am Serbian? :P

[CSF]

Yeah NDR is so very racist. Or maybe your just over aggressive and get into loads of incidents... who knows?!?!?!

[Tomhah]

lol, you had lots of space between me there. :) And I had lots of space on my right, so I would have turned more right if you came down on me :P

[ivantod]

shut up Tommy,u r not helping this way :)

[ivantod]

Or maybe your just over aggressive and get into loads of incidents... who knows?!?!?!

Did i have ANY incident in 12h KY3 MoE this year?

[Tomhah]

I tried to explain you why you got the penalty, but if it doesnt help, I will stay away then ;)

[ivantod]

No i understand their decision,but,IMO,this one is stupid.

[tmehlinger]

Did i have ANY incident in 12h KY3 MoE this year?

LOL, advanced driver spotted?

[ivantod]

i have permission from deko

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1289293#post1289293

[tmehlinger]

i have permission from deko

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1289293#post1289293

*whoosh*

[ivantod]

I got one more question.This "incident" was on start of the race.Protest appeal was written one hour after this "incident".Decision is made two weeks after,and we got +30 sec,so from 6th place we will get 21st place,because of SC finished race.
If that is ok,then i have no words how can i describe that kind of decision.

[hyntty]

I got one more question.This "incident" was on start of the race.Protest appeal was written one hour after this "incident".Decision is made two weeks after,and we got +30 sec,so from 6th place we will get 21st place,because of SC finished race.
If that is ok,then i have no words how can i describe that kind of decision.

Sorry but you can't argue "we lost too many places because of the penalty, it's wrong". That would be against all logic and reason.

If you caused the accident the penalty is well deserved. If you didn't... well my sympathies. I haven't looked into the matter personally and I won't look into it (because of several reasons right now) so I can't comment on weather the penalty was justified or not but the penalties are the same for everyone which should be all that matters.

[CrAZySkyPimp]

I got one more question.This "incident" was on start of the race.Protest appeal was written one hour after this "incident".Decision is made two weeks after,and we got +30 sec,so from 6th place we will get 21st place,because of SC finished race.
If that is ok,then i have no words how can i describe that kind of decision.

Conspiracy!!

[ivantod]

Conspiracy !!!!

I knew it !!!!

[Wilko868]

The penalty was a standard 30 second one, equivalent to your standard DT Penalty. Whether it is a SC finish or not, the penalty WILL stay the same. Yes, it may be unfortunate for you, but an incident deserving of a 30 second penalty will recieve a 30 second penalty, regardless of conditions around you.

[Fuse5]

Conspiracy !!!!

I knew it !!!!

Yes, this is a conspiracy.
When you make a mistake, that ruins the race of someone else, and you get the penalty, surely it is a conspiracy against not the team, but only you, your nationality, your parents and your pets. They are at fault here, so do not blame NDR


What the **** are you on about dude?
You got the penalty, you got a viable explanation, and you keep crying here on your knees for no reason. Get over it, and deal with the consequences of your own problems. Or don't race, please.

[Wilko868]

I owe you a pint.

[JayEyeBee]

I see that a precedent is being set here (penalty applied after a safety car finish situation), so I think a revisit of the penalty and the application should be made. Whether or not the penalty is deserved is one thing, but the application of the penalty here seems to punish the team more harshly than the crime warrants. Perhaps if the incident occured very late in the race, the penalty of 20 grid spots (or whatever) might be justified, but this incident occured very early, and, in my view, should have been dealt with early as well.
This appears to be a situation that hasn't occurred before in GTAL, nor, to my knowledge in MoE and IGTC and I don't think it happens often in real life.

I have a couple of suggestions for this type of situation.

1) Make it a flat grid penalty, 5 spots seems to a reasonable number. (Edit: I mean in the finishing order, not grid for next race. Yes, poorly worded)
2) Examine the situation before the final yellow. Decide how many positions they likely would have lost.

Jonathan

[tmehlinger]

I see that a precedent is being set here (penalty applied after a safety car finish situation), so I think a revisit of the penalty and the application should be made. Whether or not the penalty is deserved is one thing, but the application of the penalty here seems to punish the team more harshly than the crime warrants. Perhaps if the incident occured very late in the race, the penalty of 20 grid spots (or whatever) might be justified, but this incident occured very early, and, in my view, should have been dealt with early as well.
This appears to be a situation that hasn't occurred before in GTAL, nor, to my knowledge in MoE and IGTC and I don't think it happens often in real life.

I have a couple of suggestions for this type of situation.

1) Make it a flat grid penalty, 5 spots seems to a reasonable number.
2) Examine the situation before the final yellow. Decide how many positions they likely would have lost.

Jonathan

In spite of my joking, I tend to agree. The incident happened early in the race and should have been dealt with accordingly. Instead, they got royally dicked with the SC finish. I won't argue that they don't deserve a penalty, but I think we take for granted that a post-race 30-second penalty will have a similar outcome to a DT. When cars are moving well below race pace, that obviously doesn't apply.

A grid penalty won't solve this because grid position isn't nearly as relevant in endurance events as it is in other forms of racing. If it were up to me, I'd take the fastest race lap, divide it by the first-place finishers' final lap, then multiply the 30 seconds by that number. I haven't done it myself, but I'd expect it to end up being around 10 or 15 seconds. That would be a lot more fair.

[boothy]

At the very least to combat the fact that (even on non-SC finishes) 30s isn't always equal to a DT in race and as some decisions may be deferred to after-race to properly assess the situation, the actual in-race time loss for a DT/SG should be measured and applied after-race, to make things fairer :p :).

[ivantod]

http://www.dembot.net/images/facepalm/double_trek_facepalm.jpg

[JayEyeBee]

If it were up to me, I'd take the fastest race lap, divide it by the first-place finishers' final lap, then multiply the 30 seconds by that number. I haven't done it myself, but I'd expect it to end up being around 10 or 15 seconds. That would be a lot more fair.

After doing the math the ratio is about .65, leaving a 19.6ish penalty. Still a drop from 6th to 20th, is that what you had intended?

Jonathan

[ivantod]

+30 sec after last SC deploy,and that is 5 grid spots i think.

[dekojester]

Okay, here's what we'll do.

The +30s penalty will stand.

BUT

The penalty will be applied to the order as it was at the last lap before the Safety Car was called out.

This will occur in future for all events that the race ends under SC.

For an incident that occurs before the final SC, but does not get a penalty result (if there is one) until after the race, the TIME penalty (not lap or anything else) will be applied to the order before the final SC came out. If the incident caused the SC or occurred after that point in time, the penalty will be applied to the finishing result.

d

[tmehlinger]

After doing the math the ratio is about .65, leaving a 19.6ish penalty. Still a drop from 6th to 20th, is that what you had intended?

Jonathan

LOL, owned. Nope, not really what I intended. :)

[Ki-Men]

Is this penalty for my teammate Ivan really deserved or just something is wrong with the whole league?

I sea yesterday the mpr from the race and before race what is happend before red flag.
Obviusly most off the racers are forgotten the rules, and there are draiwing like without head. This is wery disapointing to me. The whole ligue are designed to show quality draiwing and example for the other ligues ... but , instead that I see unorganized bunch of drivers whos killing themselves to win the race in the first corner on race lenght 3 hours.

But when I see that the judges are nott better than the racers , ewerithing is clear to me. Because those incidents on start and on the race you are there to penalized that after few minutes , because this thing is madatory to be on irc server and have comunication. Than the too long safety car period is destroying the fealing off the race, that is unexceptable !!!

And the end to see really what is happend on the race?
If you look better there was no place for his car on the track , not Ivan has place to go in the other side his car because he has one car on there , the guys instead backoff he was pushing himself with 2 tyres on the grass , just lunitic can think that he can go thrue with that in T1.
Why someone from judge staff dont watched that guy in the next few laps after incident , when he was cutting the track ewerywhere thay can on the grass on full speed , under yellow course .... without any lifting speed ...
This penality is wery ironic.

[Tomhah]

roflmao

[pik_d]

Is this penalty for my teammate Ivan really deserved or just something is wrong with the whole league?
It's really deserved.

There! Answered!

[dekojester]

Is this penalty for my teammate Ivan really deserved or just something is wrong with the whole league?

I sea yesterday the mpr from the race and before race what is happend before red flag.
Obviusly most off the racers are forgotten the rules, and there are draiwing like without head. This is wery disapointing to me. The whole ligue are designed to show quality draiwing and example for the other ligues ... but , instead that I see unorganized bunch of drivers whos killing themselves to win the race in the first corner on race lenght 3 hours.

But when I see that the judges are nott better than the racers , ewerithing is clear to me. Because those incidents on start and on the race you are there to penalized that after few minutes , because this thing is madatory to be on irc server and have comunication. Than the too long safety car period is destroying the fealing off the race, that is unexceptable !!!

And the end to see really what is happend on the race?
If you look better there was no place for his car on the track , not Ivan has place to go in the other side his car because he has one car on there , the guys instead backoff he was pushing himself with 2 tyres on the grass , just lunitic can think that he can go thrue with that in T1.
Why someone from judge staff dont watched that guy in the next few laps after incident , when he was cutting the track ewerywhere thay can on the grass on full speed , under yellow course .... without any lifting speed ...
This penality is wery ironic.

As has been stated before, and as was viewed from the administrative team several times while reviewing the replay, there WAS plenty of room for the #18 car until the #04 car moved to the left.

Also, all must keep in mind that we are still discussing penalties for the aborted start and possible other penalties for behaviour during the official race. There are some what some might call "harsh" but we call "severe, but appropriate" penalties for the incidents in the Turn 9 area on the red flagged race.

[Fuse5]

roflmao
quoted for relevance

[AstroBoy]

Sounds like to me.

This is a Rock no its a Potato.

That is all. Make sense of that and i salute you :)

[prOmo_LTU]

Mmmm,so silent here... :D

[Seb66]

"Western music starts"

[Wilko868]

"Western music starts"
Wonder if the wind blowing that tumbleweed blew Sean Williams into the T9 barrier...

I had to.

OT: 100 posts Seb :D

[Seb66]

Lmao wilko.
Man, i am a forum whore.

[zeugnimod]

Man, i am a forum whore.

Shame on you!!!!! :x

[Wilko868]

Shame on you!!!!! :x
I lol'd. Then I found this pen and completely forgot about it.

[racer hero]

Racing is about finding the gray areas to find an advantage over the competition. There was no rules made in GTAL before the race, and therefore was legal to use. If there is a rule made, then we won't use it, simple. You can now all stop crying because we found a gray area that we could gain time in and you didn't. Thanks. :thumb:

[ivantod]

What r u talking about Ken?

[aobrien]

I dont follow it either?:shrug:

[J@tko]

Ken's saying that everyone should use button clutch because it instantly takes 3 seconds a lap off your times. :twirl:

[racer hero]

Jack, 2 tenths. I'm not saying they should use button clutch, as its going to be banned anyway. My point is that people need to stop whining over us finding a gray area in the rules and taking advantage of it... We know it was banned in MoE, but as NDR has said many times, this isn't MoE.

[ivantod]

buttonclutch is retarded


EDIT: this is not Moe but also not Grand Touring "finding a gray area" Amateurs League

[TFalke55]

Racing is about finding the gray areas to find an advantage over the competition. There was no rules made in GTAL before the race, and therefore was legal to use. If there is a rule made, then we won't use it, simple. You can now all stop crying because we found a gray area that we could gain time in and you didn't. Thanks. :thumb:

:bananadea

[racer hero]

buttonclutch is retarded
In your opinion.

[J@tko]

IBTL. :really: