Motorcycles?

[Rappa Z]

Whst about motorcycles?:scratchch where in "Live For Speed" does it say cars only? Or in "online racing simulator"?

[tristancliffe]

I'd have thought you'd have known better after nearly 8 months in LFS. Scawen has said that at some point he would like to simulate motorcycles, but will concentrate on cars first.

Motorcycles are very difficult to simulate. Not so much the physical behaviour (LFS only needs gyroscopic forces to be reasonably close), but the control method. On a real bike the steering is controlled by several factors, which change dependant on the state of the bike. i.e. at slow speeds to turn left, you turn the handlebars to the left. But there comes a point when to turn left you counter-steer and turn the handlebars slightly to the right. Add to this footpeg pressure, body weight moving and a host of other things and you start to see that unless someone can invent a controller for PC's motorcycles will never be properly simulated.

The Superbike sim series is as close as we've come yet, but in that the control is directly over the lean angle, which isn't really correct, whilst body movement, peg pressure, handle bar location etc are all done automoatically. As a biker (once, now fading into history :() I never liked the superbike series all the much, or arcade bike machines when it's (again) just lean angle controlled.

But yes, Scawen (a biker himself iirc) would like to see motorcycles at some point.

[maczo]

Add to this footpeg pressure, body weight moving and a host of other things

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
:scratchch

[Rappa Z]

tristan i joined in like january

[Kajojek(PL)]

Join date September :D

[Drillah]

I'm still waiting patiently for bikes too. :)

[farcar]

unless someone can invent a controller for PC's motorcycles will never be properly simulated.

This is exactly why I think motorcycles in LFS is a bad idea.
Without a realistic controller, a sim it aint.

[Blowtus]

yep, some things just can't be simmed accurately. Pretty much anything relying on the human bodys motion, as opposed to controls that the human body twiddles (wheel, pedals, buttons, etc) is going to be very difficult / impossible. At least bike racing is cheap enough to be moderately accessible in real life :)

[AleksejBASOwarrior]

I'm still waiting patiently for bikes too. :)


I think that is only matter of time when will somebody make comtroler which could simulate driving of bike.

Before we had steering wheel we drive on keyboard, so maybe it possobla to make something to control bike.

[Blowtus]

heh... envisaging a controller to use for car race sims wouldn't exactly require huge leaps of thought :) :)

[colcob]

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
:scratchch

Yeah, but tristan wasnt saying that you get a bike to turn by leaning, or standing on the pegs, he was saying they are factors in how a bike turns, or how much it will turn, which is true.

Body weight is not sufficient to overcome gyro forces and lean a big bike over above about 20-30 mph, but the amount you lean will determine the max lateral g's you can pull without the bike starting to sit back up again.

[Shotglass]

Yeah, but tristan wasnt saying that you get a bike to turn by leaning, or standing on the pegs, he was saying they are factors in how a bike turns, or how much it will turn, which is true.

Body weight is not sufficient to overcome gyro forces and lean a big bike over above about 20-30 mph, but the amount you lean will determine the max lateral g's you can pull without the bike starting to sit back up again.

he was wrong about the way you turn in though ... you always countersteer no matter how fast you go

[tristancliffe]

Get on a superbike, and do a left turn 180 degrees at 5mph. Trust me, you turn left.

[mrfell]

Get on a superbike, and do a left turn 180 degrees at 5mph. Trust me, you turn left.

what did you ride?

[tristancliffe]

I had a ZZR250, an Aprilia RS50, a Yamaha FS1E, and nearly bought a CBR600 (not in that order) before cars took predicence :( But I really really want a VFR400 NC30

[colcob]

Well, when you are actually in a constant radius turn at any speed, you are always turning the handlebars in the direction you are turning.
Countersteering is used to impart roll velocity to the bike one way or another.

So at low speed, the gyro forces are so low, that you really dont need to countersteer to roll the bike over, your body weight will do it. At high speed, you need to countersteer to roll the bike over, but once in the turn, you'll still be steering the direction you're going.

However, another caveat. If you get on that superbike, get it rolling at 5 mph, and sit bolt upright and dont move your body at all, if you steer left, the bike will tip right, and you'll immediately have to start steering right to catch the bike.

The physics behind countersteering are actually pretty straighforward and well understood (despite what that bloke on the no-bs bike page says).

A bike tyre, the same as a car tyre, generates a lateral force when it has slip angle. So if you're going along in a straight line and you turn the bars left, the front tyre will generate a leftward force, AT GROUND LEVEL.

But the centre of gravity of the bike and rider is waaaay above ground level, so this force actually generated a rotation force, but a leftward force below the cog causes the bike and rider to rotate rightwards, tipping the bike into a right hand turn.

At this point, if you just kept the bars pointing slightly left, the front wheel will carry on creating a leftward force, you'll keep tipping right, and in about 0.3 secs be skidding along the black stuff on your pants. So as the bike starts to tip over, you instinctively start to steer right (caster helps I think), which starts to generate a rightwards force, which wants to tip you leftwards, thus slowing down your rightwards tip.

And then you reach a point of equilibrium where rotation force caused by the lateral force from the tyres balances with the rotation force created by your cog being off centre, and you carve a nice turn.

But you can see from that that the further off centre your COG is, the more lateral G you can pull in a turn of a given radius, hence hanging off the bike.

(NB: I've never ridden a motorcycle, I'm just a theorist, so If anyone wants to disgree based on practical experience, I'm all ears.)

[tristancliffe]

Well, when you are actually in a constant radius turn at any speed, you are always turning the handlebars in the direction you are turning.
Countersteering is used to impart roll velocity to the bike one way or another.

So at low speed, the gyro forces are so low, that you really dont need to countersteer to roll the bike over, your body weight will do it. At high speed, you need to countersteer to roll the bike over, but once in the turn, you'll still be steering the direction you're going.

However, another caveat. If you get on that superbike, get it rolling at 5 mph, and sit bolt upright and dont move your body at all, if you steer left, the bike will tip right, and you'll immediately have to start steering right to catch the bike.

The physics behind countersteering are actually pretty straighforward and well understood (despite what that bloke on the no-bs bike page says).

A bike tyre, the same as a car tyre, generates a lateral force when it has slip angle. So if you're going along in a straight line and you turn the bars left, the front tyre will generate a leftward force, AT GROUND LEVEL.

But the centre of gravity of the bike and rider is waaaay above ground level, so this force actually generated a rotation force, but a leftward force below the cog causes the bike and rider to rotate rightwards, tipping the bike into a right hand turn.

At this point, if you just kept the bars pointing slightly left, the front wheel will carry on creating a leftward force, you'll keep tipping right, and in about 0.3 secs be skidding along the black stuff on your pants. So as the bike starts to tip over, you instinctively start to steer right (caster helps I think), which starts to generate a rightwards force, which wants to tip you leftwards, thus slowing down your rightwards tip.

And then you reach a point of equilibrium where rotation force caused by the lateral force from the tyres balances with the rotation force created by your cog being off centre, and you carve a nice turn.

But you can see from that that the further off centre your COG is, the more lateral G you can pull in a turn of a given radius, hence hanging off the bike.

(NB: I've never ridden a motorcycle, I'm just a theorist, so If anyone wants to disgree based on practical experience, I'm all ears.)

Sound about right to me. If you can you should ride a bike (or even just a moped). I think ALL car drivers should be forced to ride for a bit, because you learn a hell of a lot more about road surfaces, diesel, camber etc from bike riding, and you'll also understand more why bikes do the things they do, thus increasing respect between the two styles, and helping each other to get along. I have more 'thank-you' waves from bikes in a car than anyone else I've ever seen, because I have a vague idea what they are going to do and why.

[mrfell]

I had a ZZR250, an Aprilia RS50, a Yamaha FS1E, and nearly bought a CBR600 (not in that order) before cars took predicence :( But I really really want a VFR400 NC30

Not a bike i would want but would love to have a go!

I find CBR600's a bit blah now. Very good bikes but honda has killed it imo.
Same as the fireblade the orignal was the one to have, bad boy styling and handling to match, now its too refined.

Still any bike is better than not having one!!!

[mrfell]

Well, when you are actually in a constant radius turn at any speed, you are always turning the handlebars in the direction you are turning.
Countersteering is used to impart roll velocity to the bike one way or another.

So at low speed, the gyro forces are so low, that you really dont need to countersteer to roll the bike over, your body weight will do it. At high speed, you need to countersteer to roll the bike over, but once in the turn, you'll still be steering the direction you're going.

However, another caveat. If you get on that superbike, get it rolling at 5 mph, and sit bolt upright and dont move your body at all, if you steer left, the bike will tip right, and you'll immediately have to start steering right to catch the bike.

The physics behind countersteering are actually pretty straighforward and well understood (despite what that bloke on the no-bs bike page says).

A bike tyre, the same as a car tyre, generates a lateral force when it has slip angle. So if you're going along in a straight line and you turn the bars left, the front tyre will generate a leftward force, AT GROUND LEVEL.

But the centre of gravity of the bike and rider is waaaay above ground level, so this force actually generated a rotation force, but a leftward force below the cog causes the bike and rider to rotate rightwards, tipping the bike into a right hand turn.

At this point, if you just kept the bars pointing slightly left, the front wheel will carry on creating a leftward force, you'll keep tipping right, and in about 0.3 secs be skidding along the black stuff on your pants. So as the bike starts to tip over, you instinctively start to steer right (caster helps I think), which starts to generate a rightwards force, which wants to tip you leftwards, thus slowing down your rightwards tip.

And then you reach a point of equilibrium where rotation force caused by the lateral force from the tyres balances with the rotation force created by your cog being off centre, and you carve a nice turn.

But you can see from that that the further off centre your COG is, the more lateral G you can pull in a turn of a given radius, hence hanging off the bike.

(NB: I've never ridden a motorcycle, I'm just a theorist, so If anyone wants to disgree based on practical experience, I'm all ears.)

you could probably win the moto gp with that knowledge:thumb:

[colcob]

Sound about right to me. If you can you should ride a bike (or even just a moped). I think ALL car drivers should be forced to ride for a bit, because you learn a hell of a lot more about road surfaces, diesel, camber etc from bike riding, and you'll also understand more why bikes do the things they do, thus increasing respect between the two styles, and helping each other to get along. I have more 'thank-you' waves from bikes in a car than anyone else I've ever seen, because I have a vague idea what they are going to do and why.

Yeah, I've been road-riding push bikes in town and city for years though, so I've got a bit of a feel for what its like. Actually, I countersteer my pushbike all the time now. I tried it out a lot while I was trying to understand the physics behind it, and now its just habit.

[avih]

...(NB: I've never ridden a motorcycle, I'm just a theorist, so If anyone wants to disgree based on practical experience, I'm all ears.)

well, you don't have much time to go through all this teoretic stuff when breaking till your eyeballs pull out from 200kph+ towards a tight turns, but hey, the theory sounds good ;)

[Shotglass]

...

imho you countersteer at all speeds ... or at least you can
and obviously your steering into the corner during the corner
but imho even your explanaition on countersteering is to complex its simpler with inertia ... steer to the left and your tires instantly move to the left while your heavy body doesnt

[Vendetta]

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
:scratchch

but who would buy that? :P

[[FuLLocK]JoK3R]

Hmmm im sure that a company could make somthing for simulating bikes... a bit like force dynamics. Imo bikes would be a nice touch to lfs. Ive heard alot of good things about the new bike sim game Tourist Trophy... havnt had a go myself yet :(

[Forbin]

Tourist Trophy is really just GT4 with bikes. Like GT4, it's impossible to step the back out on any bike, even a 193HP Hayabusa, and diving into a corner with full brakes at full lean is no problem. That said it is still kind of fun, but it's no true simulation. I think of it as a step down from GP500 in terms of realism.

[Drillah]

Why do all posts about bikes in a sim or bike games in genreal have to come down to "it'll never be real if they don't put countersteering in it"?
Although I agree that to be an uber real sim like some of the car games are getting to be, a bike game will have to have countersteering in it. But right now the only bike games that come close being a simulation are both 6-8 years old...we've got a long way to go to get bikes to the same place that cars are currently at.
If bikes get in the game at S3 then an editor of some sorts is released, :shrug: then, well. lol, then we'll have a good base to make a bike sim. :thumb:

[L(Oo)ney]

I would love motorcycles added to LFS, and i know, one day they will be..

They can add any motorbike they choose, aslong as its not a BMW. :)

[Viper93]

My Uncle used to race superbike a few years ago. He was saying that when he was racing he would actually turn the way he wanted to go, I think this might be because with the G forces they were ruining the radius of the tire, flattening it out. He couldn't do it for very long( tend to lay blackmarks with front and rear) but he used it in qualifying alot.