More grip

[Hiwer]

This may be suggested before, but I'll bring it to highlights:
In LFS you have much less grip in tyres than in real life, so in LFS, you spin easier than in real life. Maybe bit more grip to tyres and that's it ;)

[tristancliffe]

In LFS you have too much maximum grip sometimes - over 1.2g in the road cars. However, the way the cars lose and, more specifically, regain grip is questionable and will be fixed in the forthcoming patch. This same patch will also alter a few things. You might also be referring to the low grip at low speeds, but this is rarely a problem whilst racing as your speeds will be much higher.

Many 'sims' give you too much grip to reduce the 'driving on ice' feeling. However, this isn't (imo) a very realistic way of overcoming the lack of feeling you will get in a sim. You aren't in the car and can't feel the car in the same way. Once you get used to LFS you'll find it's actually VERY good - you can feel the sidewalls of the tyres move around as you approach the limit of grip.

It's a common feeling that LFS has too little grip, but this is because it doesn't fake anything. GPL, the other great simulator, also had this 'on ice' feeling.

[MadCatX]

1) There is a patch coming soon that will solve some issues with tyres grip(we hope)

2) How do you know how much grip have tyres in real life? AFAIK it is not too different from LFS(expect lower speeds ATM, patch will solve this...)

and... SEARCH, m8...

EDIT: Lol.. started to typing this when tristan didnt have his post here.... feeling little... beated now:).....

[AlfaLover]

In LFS you have too much maximum grip sometimes - over 1.2g in the road cars. However, the way the cars lose and, more specifically, regain grip is questionable and will be fixed in the forthcoming patch. This same patch will also alter a few things. You might also be referring to the low grip at low speeds, but this is rarely a problem whilst racing as your speeds will be much higher.

Many 'sims' give you too much grip to reduce the 'driving on ice' feeling. However, this isn't (imo) a very realistic way of overcoming the lack of feeling you will get in a sim. You aren't in the car and can't feel the car in the same way. Once you get used to LFS you'll find it's actually VERY good - you can feel the sidewalls of the tyres move around as you approach the limit of grip.

It's a common feeling that LFS has too little grip, but this is because it doesn't fake anything. GPL, the other great simulator, also had this 'on ice' feeling.

Some Road cars can do turns in more than 1.2g of lateral force,
samples : Porsche Carrera GT , and 1990 Alfa Romeo SZ has got WR for several years, on lateral G force more than 1G , some people claims that the last real Alfa Romeo(currently Alfas, are Fiats in Alfa dress) takes 1.2g (mesured) and some unsure source claims 1.4g but i don't believe it.

if you see it in the XF-GTI with more ^_^ than 1.2g sure is irreal.

[JeffR]

Many 'sims' give you too much grip to reduce the 'driving on ice'I don't think this is a case of more grip, but instead more stability. GTLegends cars don't have a lot of grip, but they are much easier to control than similarly powered cars in LFS. I don't know what the issue is, tire physics and/or differential, but the higher powered RWD cars in LFS just seem too unstable. The LX6 seems to be one of the more unstable cars in the game and takes some extreme setup values to tame it.

[tristancliffe]

imo (as always) there are a few things to blame.

1. LFS Tyre physics flaws, which will be fixed
2. Lack of feeling in the cars as you're not actually in them
3. GTL doesn't simulate everything (or half as much) as LFS does, and fakes a lot to make it more rewarding and easier, and SEEM more realistic. When I've tried GTL I though it was pants personally.

Rest Assured that LFS will get better with the new patch, and then is the time to point out it's flaws.

[StanleyCarter]

well with all those technical talks on LFS tire physics for the past few months, I'll just agree with Hiwer here, its just that simple, with a little more grip, and LFS would be awesome (more). :P

like many of you guys here, I trust the LFS developers 100% and I'm really looking forward for the new patch, rest assured Hiwer, I'm sure your concern regarding the grip issue would be improved a lot in the next patch. :)

[AndroidXP]

*sigh*

If you just give the tyres "more grip" then three things will happen:

1) unrealistically high cornering forces
2) the same faulty tail happy behaviour just at a higher speed/cornering force
3) the same low speed grip issues, when comparing to the available grip at higher paces

Giving "more grip" solves nothing.

[StanleyCarter]

*sigh*

If you just give the tyres "more grip" then three things will happen:

1) unrealistically high cornering forces
2) the same faulty tail happy behaviour just at a higher speed/cornering force
3) the same low speed grip issues, when comparing to the available grip at higher paces

Giving "more grip" solves nothing.

yes I understand, I'm just trying to explain all of it in a much much more simpler way that's all, the word "more grip" in my previous post simply refers to the fix/improvement of the current tire bug lfs has. Like I said, I trust the devs, which means I know they won't simply just add some numbers just to raise the "grip level", I also understand pretty much on what the current problem with LFS is and what is required to make it better (since so many threads regarding this has been posted over and over, and I've read them all :D)

I'm not really good at English, sorry for the confusion, hehe. :thumb:

[mrodgers]

I don't think this is a case of more grip, but instead more stability. GTLegends cars don't have a lot of grip, but they are much easier to control than similarly powered cars in LFS. I don't know what the issue is, tire physics and/or differential, but the higher powered RWD cars in LFS just seem too unstable. The LX6 seems to be one of the more unstable cars in the game and takes some extreme setup values to tame it.
I find LFS now to be the easiest sim to control. Why? Because now that I'm use to the grip in LFS, it's all the way LFS does the FF and sound now. With GTL, I can't control the cars at all because of the way FF and sound is. It tells me nothing about what the car is doing, it only tells what the car has done. Now, when sims do canned effects and sampled sounds, I feel/hear the slight delay of the sim doing "this" because the car "DID THAT". Unlike LFS where the FF/sounds do "this" because the car IS DOING "this". LFS has kind of ruined all other sims for me because of the way it is done and everything being physics driven (not a bad thing for LFS).

[Hyperactive]

The biggest difference when I drive other sims (GPL, nascar, namie) is that you do much less corrections and the rear is more predictable to control. Not easier but more predictable. The most frightening moments in LFS are when yopu are driving a road car above 100mph (RAC, LX6, FZ50) and the rear steps out. Getting it back is pure luck atm. Which is sad because the RAC is soo fun to drive on tracks where there aren't long med-speed or fast corners.

LFS has had that slippy feeling since its first release, I doubt that one patch will suddenly "fix it". But improvements make LFS be closer to perfection. The patch won't be a sudden huge leap.

[AlfaLover]

I find LFS now to be the easiest sim to control. Why? Because now that I'm use to the grip in LFS, it's all the way LFS does the FF and sound now. With GTL, I can't control the cars at all because of the way FF and sound is. It tells me nothing about what the car is doing, it only tells what the car has done. Now, when sims do canned effects and sampled sounds, I feel/hear the slight delay of the sim doing "this" because the car "DID THAT". Unlike LFS where the FF/sounds do "this" because the car IS DOING "this". LFS has kind of ruined all other sims for me because of the way it is done and everything being physics driven (not a bad thing for LFS).

:thumb: 2000% agree , better explained is imposible, this is why LFS let other sims like simple arcades. GTR , rFactor etc they are only Arcades.

i have a good feeling with nkpro, but until i drive it i don't want to make a veredict.

Today LFS is the best sim ever do,

[deggis]

2. Lack of feeling in the cars as you're not actually in them
But you can't blame that for these flaws in LFS.

LFS has had that slippy feeling since its first release, I doubt that one patch will suddenly "fix it". But improvements make LFS be closer to perfection. The patch won't be a sudden huge leap.
I'm hopeful about the patch but it is just weird and suspicious that the problems have been there years and then Scawen just suddenly admits and tells he's going to fix them. :shrug:

[tristancliffe]

But you can't blame that for these flaws in LFS.

Why not? Not feeling the cars makes a huge difference. Imagine trying to control your real car on the limit without actually feeling anything that the car is doing. Perhaps the problem lies not only with LFS (which of course has problems) but with the other sims that 'cover up' the inherent problem with unrealistic grip 'boosters' or dumbed down physics. I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. LFS will get better, but those of you who expect to be able to floor the throttle in 2nd gear in a 140bhp car whilst on the limit of traction will never be truly happy with LFS

[Woz]

For those that want "more grip" you need to learn to be MORE SUBTLE with your controls.

With the Aussie V8 (Real car big block racing at its best :)) racing on TV down here they show foot cam in one corner of the screen at times so you can see out the cockpit and see the drivers feet working. When you see this you notice that until the car is up to a speed where it is safe to just boot the "loud" pedal the driver can take a number of seconds from changing gear to having their foot down on the floor.

Simple reason really, boot a powerful car at low speeds and the back end WILL get very loose.

If anything the tires on the GTI etc have TOO MUCH grip. The problem (apart from issues raised above by others, such as how tires lose grip) is PERCEPTION.

Trist has already stated that you cant feel the car (True in all sims) and this has FAR more impact that most people who ask for more gip give credit.

The force feedback in LFS is good and lets you know what is going on better than any other sim (IMHO) BUT it is still giving you that info AFTER the fact. IRL you feel the back end twitch through your body FAR FAR sooner than you do through the wheel. You feel the weight shift and the change in G etc. This might only be a less than 0.1-0.2 seconds BUT that gives you the time to correct before the back steps. In LFS you are reacting after the back has stepped and hence have to correct more because the car is that much further over the edge.

[AleksejBASOwarrior]

In LFS you have too much maximum grip sometimes - over 1.2g in the road cars. However, the way the cars lose and, more specifically, regain grip is questionable and will be fixed in the forthcoming patch.



Yes I think to... I had even mesuring average grip, to avoid this extrem values in just short time, using F1perfwiev eng got about 0.9!!! Its very big value.

[LILSTIG]

I went round with my XRG and it slides a lot even though i drove really fast. there are no grip. and its true that it is like driving on ice. but please for the next patch give us GRIP!

[The Very End]

What I don't get is why there are skid marks when you turn at low speed. Let's say you do 5-10km/h and does a tight turn, it will make sound and skid marks, for me that's just strange:shrug:

[geeman1]

What I don't get is why there are skid marks when you turn at low speed. Let's say you do 5-10km/h and does a tight turn, it will make sound and skid marks, for me that's just strange:shrug:Locked (or very close to) diff?

[The Very End]

Very close and locket.

[george_tsiros]

first of all the view is quite different between real life and LFS
second, many real car speedos are like 10kph off

[geeman1]

Very close and locket.That's how locked diff works. Both tyres are locked to turn at the same speed and while turning (even at low speeds) one tyre has to slide.

[The Very End]

Dude, even my mother's Hunday Atos does not make skid marks or sound when turning hard in 5 kmh, it sits glued to the road and does not skid. Try it yourselfe, no need to be even close to full lock.

[BlakjeKaas]

first of all the view is quite different between real life and LFS
second, many real car speedos are like 10kph off

I have the idea the speedos are a bit off, (if you have to believe some insim applications, that is).

[ColeusRattus]

Dude, even my mother's Hunday Atos does not make skid marks or sound when turning hard in 5 kmh, it sits glued to the road and does not skid. Try it yourselfe, no need to be even close to full lock.

Yeah, because it has an open differential...

[The Very End]

Try various cars in LFS, various setups, you still get the same. Doesn't seem right to me, but well :shrug:

[tristancliffe]

It's because the tyre model, designed for working in a race environment, breaks down at low speed. It has little to do with how the mathematical model copes at racing speeds.

[geeman1]

Try various cars in LFS, various setups, you still get the same. Doesn't seem right to me, but well :shrug:Your moms car has an open diff. Which means that the tires can spin freely, hence no slipping. Many setups in LFS use locked diff or close to locked, which makes them behave very very differently from your moms car.

Also what tristan said. The tyre model kind of breaks down at low speeds so even a little bit too much gas can also make the tires spin.

[Woz]

Try various cars in LFS, various setups, you still get the same. Doesn't seem right to me, but well :shrug:

Now set an open diff in those cars and try again and see what it does.

Open diffs are a crock of shite for performance but make mum type shopping cars safe for people that will never tr to push for that extra 1/10th of a sec.

That said, there are issues with the tires because locked diffs should also be a crock of shite on the track but in LFS they still rule.

[XCNuse]

On the subject of skid marks (.. that came out wrong didn't it?)
Lol, how skidmarks are made is currently wrong, Takumi.. someone, the user, had an entire thread pointing out how the skidmarks were made at wrong times etc.

I doubt I will ever be able to find that thread again though.

But anyways, as Tristan stated, the tires aren't exactly made for low speeds right now giving us a multitude of problems, hopefully one day they will be solved.

[Woz]

On the subject of skid marks (.. that came out wrong didn't it?)
Lol, how skidmarks are made is currently wrong, Takumi.. someone, the user, had an entire thread pointing out how the skidmarks were made at wrong times etc.

I doubt I will ever be able to find that thread again though.

But anyways, as Tristan stated, the tires aren't exactly made for low speeds right now giving us a multitude of problems, hopefully one day they will be solved.

Yep, I know what you mean now :) There are lots of times no rubber should be left.

[george_tsiros]

i don't care much about low speed in lfs

if it means the devs need to choose between this or something else, i'd prefer if they ignored it and work on something else.

it's not as if we're going around in lfs at 10kph

no jams either.

however, i STILL think lfs would be valuable in teaching people driving and what the car does when it goes off limits. (with custom maps, traffic that goes abiding the law with someone breaking the law sometimes, etcetcetc)

[The Very End]

I don't think LFS can be used to learn people stuff in real life, maybe the completely simple and basic stuff, but nothing more than that. The way the car behaves is somewhat far off from real life, and there are countless topic's pointing out the differences. When that is said, for the basic stuff - yes maybe, but I don't think a normal common sence person will benefit anything big by LFS, other than a lot of fun of course :smileypul

[tristancliffe]

I don't think LFS can be used to learn people stuff in real life, maybe the completely simple and basic stuff, but nothing more than that. The way the car behaves is somewhat far off from real life, and there are countless topic's pointing out the differences. When that is said, for the basic stuff - yes maybe, but I don't think a normal common sence person will benefit anything big by LFS, other than a lot of fun of course :smileypul

Understeer, oversteer, spin recovery, awareness, flags, race craft, prediction (both of what the car is going to do in half a seconds time, and what might happen to the pair in front racing closely for position), how to brake, how to accelerate, how to learn tracks, how to find time, how to race, how to qualify.

All these things can be taught in LFS to a fairly high level. I'd say that's more than 'basic stuff'.

[The Very End]

Then I disagree with you :shrug: Alltho it simulates the real thing to some degree, it still only will be the basics within the various cathegories. Knowing what to do from a computer game will not make you do the right thing if you are in a accident in real life. Sure, you know what to do, but you don't do it because you lack experience. Experience you can only, in my opinion, be thought by driving in real life, game simulates what you should do but in most cases won't help much in a real life situation if you don't got the experience and can hold the head cool.

[george_tsiros]

it can prepare you for how the car will react and how to correct it.
then, you can go and do that in real life

it's not really a good idead to start experimenting in real life without having any idea what will happen.

that, alone, is very valuable.

[tristancliffe]

Then I disagree with you :shrug: Alltho it simulates the real thing to some degree, it still only will be the basics within the various cathegories. Knowing what to do from a computer game will not make you do the right thing if you are in a accident in real life. Sure, you know what to do, but you don't do it because you lack experience. Experience you can only, in my opinion, be thought by driving in real life, game simulates what you should do but in most cases won't help much in a real life situation if you don't got the experience and can hold the head cool.
I only stated what LFS taught me in preparation for my real life exploits. Maybe you won't learn as much from it, or maybe you will and never realise it.

[The Very End]

And I only stated my opinion, if it's right... Hell man, you know me, I shit out words so emty of wisdom that even Lerts would be ashamed.. I just thinks that is the way, maybe I am right, maybe not :)

[Woz]

I would also add that hooked up to something like a 301 platform and an open SouthCity and it could be used for far more :)

One of the things LFS really teaches you is anticipation of problems and how to avoid them. You watch and are in so many incidents in LFS that it improves prediction no end.

[AndroidXP]

i shit out words
qft

[george_tsiros]

admitting to speak out of one's ass takes balls.
cheers to you

[MAD3.0LT]

IMO even locked diffs in LFS dont exactly feel right the cars way to stable.

i frequent track days in my track/road car and it has a locked diff and i can tell u now lfs lacks the snap over steer i get in my real car, i mean the lack of feeling in lfs would make it harder to catch it not easyer. IRL at 2500-3000 rpm 3rd gear going around a uturn at 65kph close to the limits of four wheel sliding if you even get the boost to 5 vacume thats -5psi boost it will easly snap wiith 245 wide grippy soft road tyres. and you have no chance in hell of holding the power on to hold the slide you have to feather the throttle to keep the car from doing a 180 or geting snap over correction.

now i have messed with LFS and setup a car exactly like mine with settings and lfs tweek it was alot closer then the normal sets but still to easy to drive :)

[gxgung]

+1 for recalculating grip :).

[danthebangerboy]

locked diffs should also be a crock of shite on the track but in LFS they still rule.

Really???

Locked diffs DO rule in real life, as instead of having drive to the inside wheel only, which will be spinning its life away with no weight on it, what you got with a locked diff is the outside wheel that does have weight on it also being driven, thus putting the power down on the track.

I have driven both front and rear wheel drive cars with locked diffs in real life, and as long as you can become accustomed to having scrubbed out tyres, a bit more understeer with a FWD, or sudden snap oversteer with a RWD then it is beneficial grip wise, as you can put power down instead of having pretty much 1 wheel drive in corners.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Really???
you can put power down instead of having pretty much 0 wheel drive in corners.

fixed

[Woz]

Really???

Locked diffs DO rule in real life, as instead of having drive to the inside wheel only, which will be spinning its life away with no weight on it, what you got with a locked diff is the outside wheel that does have weight on it also being driven, thus putting the power down on the track.

I have driven both front and rear wheel drive cars with locked diffs in real life, and as long as you can become accustomed to having scrubbed out tyres, a bit more understeer with a FWD, or sudden snap oversteer with a RWD then it is beneficial grip wise, as you can put power down instead of having pretty much 1 wheel drive in corners.

The spinning wheel you talk of is an open diff. These are nasty but cheap and "safe" for joe public.

A limited slip diff is preferable to locked diff unless you are drifting. It sends power to the outer wheel when it does "slip" so allows you to get power down BUT also helps you corner.

[MAD3.0LT]

most of the REAL drifters i know hate locked diff's and i agree with them a proper lsd is better for drifting and racing but not everyone wants to spend 2500$ + just on a lsd center so a locker is a good option.


PS i had a 900$ lsd setup in my track car it lasted 1 week and thats with only 330HP at the wheels

[Woz]

most of the REAL drifters i know hate locked diff's and i agree with them a proper lsd is better for drifting and racing but not everyone wants to spend 2500$ + just on a lsd center so a locker is a good option.


PS i had a 900$ lsd setup in my track car it lasted 1 week and thats with only 330HP at the wheels

Yep, when you push cars its not kind on the hardware :)

As this is LFS and cost does not figure it is hard to understand why locked diffs rate highly in wr charts. It does highlight there is an issue in the tires or drivetrain somewhere.

We will know when it is fixed because the majority will pick lsd over locked instead of the current reversed situation :)

[george_tsiros]

maybe locked is indeed faster (and realisticaly so) for hotlapping and chasing a WR but it is too hard on the tyres, a problem which would manifest itself only after many laps of driving.

went around kcalb a few laps in the xfr with slip diff and locked diff. more or less the same tyre temp.

uh ... hn.... efsbgdnyh dfasss

going to bed now, bye all

[jameslinton50]

so when is there a patch coming guys coz i agree the grip level is way to unrealistic even as a demo racer with the XRG 1.8 inline 4 it still smokes up with a locked diff and a small brake setting change i also have a logitech g25 and the steering is under steer city lol

[LFSn00b]

so when is there a patch coming guys coz i agree the grip level is way to unrealistic even as a demo racer with the XRG 1.8 inline 4 it still smokes up with a locked diff and a small brake setting change i also have a logitech g25 and the steering is under steer city lol
... what? :confused:

[The Very End]

so when is there a patch coming guys coz i agree the grip level is way to unrealistic even as a demo racer with the XRG 1.8 inline 4 it still smokes up with a locked diff and a small brake setting change i also have a logitech g25 and the steering is under steer city lol

Try reading the topic again mate ;)
There are some valid points that compare grip LFS vs real life. It's fairly accurate now, with some downfalls yes - but still fairly good.

About the patch we do not know, somewhere this year Scawen said, but as it's 7 months delayed so far I am not exactly hoping for anything before the patch is actually released.