Amazing real life control .. I wonder about LFS

[ZzeCoOl]

Im wondering if this can be done in lfs some day :D

Dont start the drift war-flame just take a look from physics perspective

Thanks


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBSVqOc-CN4

Respect Kawabata :thumb:

[Byku]

All we need is bigger steering angle :p.

[The Stig PL]

All we need is bigger steering angle :p.


again...

no. we don't need bigger steerig angle.

[Byku]

If someone would like to do such a thing in LFS like in the movie, then "yes, we need bigger steering angle" ;). Oh and, yeah, that was impressive.

[Tomba(FIN)]

I have done this dozens of times in lfs

[senn]

Some Points.

1.) LFS used to have something like 40-45 deg lock available for all cars + adjustable track etc etc, but this was removed ages ago for better realism

2.) Look in the unofficial mods thread, pretty sure there's a way to increase lock, just means you can't use it online.

3.) There is hundreds of requests for more lock, but being as it was removed from the game a long time ago, good luck with that.

[ZzeCoOl]

again...

no. we don't need bigger steerig angle.


Steering angle was removed ages ago , yes that is right but do you know the reason ???

LFS physics have nothing to do with the physics that lfs had back then.


But please dont turn the topic to a flame war steering angle was not what i wanted to show here (not only steering angle)

LFS is about replicate real life physics and this is how developers advertise it.

Keep it clean

Thank you :)

[senn]

it was removed, afaik, because real cars don't have that much lock (without some serious steering/suspension modifications, ie Competition Drift cars)

Not trying to flame, just inform.

[ZzeCoOl]

it was removed, afaik, because real cars don't have that much lock (without some serious steering/suspension modifications, ie Competition Drift cars)

Not trying to flame, just inform.


I own a Nissan Silvia s14a and the default steering angle of the leading wheel is 45 degrees

Dont tell me that my car isnt real :nod:

Thank you:thumb:

[The Very End]

LFS is about racing. Drifting is it's own sport, but please don't come here claiming drifting is racing. Racing is about beeing the fasts man on track, beeing able to react faster than anyone, beeing able to drive lap after lap on the limit and still not crash. Drifting is.. well it's own sport, I don't find it impressive. Sure, it takes some practise/car and probally tallent do drift, but I'd say a man that is good at racing is hell a lot more man than a man that is "good" at throwing his car around the corner.

That of course, is my opinion. I don't see the fuzz about drifting, everyone can do that. It just takes equiptment and time to get good at it, while racing is much more brutal and only some people are capable of beeing able to drive on the limit all the time and drive faster than anyone else.

Therfor, drifting, more lock or whatever that means drifting, please don't put that crap in LFS. Also we are perfectly fine with the XRT,FZ5 and the other cars, they drift more than good enough. The bigger lock will just make it more easier.. or should we say, newbie friendlier? :rolleyes:

[SidiousX]

Why would we need more steering angle, we just need announcers that go DAHHHHHDUM DOP DUM DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[JasonJ]

huh? you can do +115 degrees angle drifts in LFS.

[G!NhO]

I/everybody can basicly do ~180 degree drifts/slides with rb4.

[ZzeCoOl]

LFS is about racing. Drifting is it's own sport, but please don't come here claiming drifting is racing. Racing is about beeing the fasts man on track, beeing able to react faster than anyone, beeing able to drive lap after lap on the limit and still not crash. Drifting is.. well it's own sport, I don't find it impressive. Sure, it takes some practise/car and probally tallent do drift, but I'd say a man that is good at racing is hell a lot more man than a man that is "good" at throwing his car around the corner.

That of course, is my opinion. I don't see the fuzz about drifting, everyone can do that. It just takes equiptment and time to get good at it, while racing is much more brutal and only some people are capable of beeing able to drive on the limit all the time and drive faster than anyone else.

Therfor, drifting, more lock or whatever that means drifting, please don't put that crap in LFS. Also we are perfectly fine with the XRT,FZ5 and the other cars, they drift more than good enough. The bigger lock will just make it more easier.. or should we say, newbie friendlier? :rolleyes:



Nahhh you made it once again...

About your "man part" lfs driving or even real life driving isnt something that can make you a man ...

As for our topic i respect your opinion but it is so clearly that you have a bad taste. If steering angle is what needed to make the 1/3 (1/3 for racing 1/3 for cruising) of the lfs owners happy i cant find a reason not to do it.Is it gonna be bad for the racing community? No for the cruising community neither... So?

Be open minded

I started my racing carrier from my early years with karting blah blah blah and today im on the administrating team of the biggest Car-racing club in Greece ( www.mycarclub.gr (http://www.mycarclub.gr) ) I love racing since i was a child but this isnt our point here not what makes a man (laughin....)

About you comment "drift : everyone can do that" thats right same goes for racing too but i cant compare those two both needs skills.

Let me give you a nice example of what is different from my point of view and my experience. In a Race (Racing) a small mistake can ve corrected through the next laps if you are good , in drifting a small mistake takes you out of the way. Imagine now how does it feels this for the driver and his team because they put the same efford like the racing teams.

Drift cars and race cars (not including GTR and custom race cars) are identical the main difference is on the suspension settings and alignment.

The bigger lock will just make it more easier.. or should we say, newbie friendlier?

No it will not , it will just open a new potential on how realistic LFS will be comparing to the real life drifting :D (Even my car have better steering angle from the factory than XRT :P )


Thank you :D

[The Very End]

I am open minded :(

Ok, I am drunk, sorry.

Well, ok, the man part were for show and to provoke some reaction, I'll slap myself hard for that :shy:

Well, you can do what you want in LFS, I won't judge you on that. My personal, and probally bad taste in LFS is the racing part, and of course RALLY PAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKK GRRRRRR FUKC!

So, well for peace and baby jesus, sure, ok, if the devs find time to do this, sure why not, add whatever suitable for drifting, I won't go apeshit for that :D

Oh and sorry if you felt offended by it, it was by all means not meant as as personal attack on you or any specifiq people that likes this :)

[ZzeCoOl]

You made it more clear now :D

Thank you

[jaykay3000]

lfs is aimed at racing, that you can drift in it is just a bonus... says the guy who plays the game to drift or d&d :x

Btw, vid was pretty nice. Looks almost un savable to begin with. Wish I could understand japanese!

[wheel4hummer]

lfs is aimed at racing, that you can drift in it is just a bonus... says the guy who plays the game to drift or d&d :x

TBH, it's aimed at whatever the devs aim it at... They could be aiming for a flying unicorn simulator for all you know.

[blackbird04217]

Flying unicorn comes in S3!!!

[Woz]

I own a Nissan Silvia s14a and the default steering angle of the leading wheel is 45 degrees

Dont tell me that my car isnt real :nod:

Thank you:thumb:

Is that 45 total lock as that is only 22.5 either side. Please post spec page with this quoted?

The reason I ask is that whenever somebody asks people to back up claims like that they go quiet. And NO I don't just want a pick of your 45deg as your car could be modded :)

[The Very End]

TBH, it's aimed at whatever the devs aim it at... They could be aiming for a flying unicorn simulator for all you know.

Personally I hope they follow they buggy/baja-thingy they tried back in S1. I don't know where Scawen mentioned it, but it had been testing.
I am sure the physics have evovled pretty much since then, so it most likely would offer great fun.

Alternative racing, like more rallycross and other generes is much wished :nod:

[kaynd]

Well 36degrees is the steering angle for both wheels in 100% parallel steering.
eg in XRT setting the parallel steering to 0, implementing full Ackerman Geometry, the leading wheel has 43+ degrees angle and the trailing wheel ~30 degrees.

It’s still more than what most sport cars have in stock.
http://kpi.squarespace.com/steering-angle-modifications/

Looks like taking account Silvia S14 service manual ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/19250870/S14-Silvia-with-SR20DET-Factory-Service-Manual) page 449 or FA-15 , that S14 has similar leading wheel turning angle with XRT. Leading wheel 39-43degrees and trailing wheel 33degrees.

You need a drift purpose steering modification to have 52+degrees at the leading wheel in order to atchieve what we see in the video above.
It's not in our hands. :shrug: It's the developers choice.
For me drifting is enjoyable and challenging as it is with current steering angles.
And it is a lot more chalenging with low steering angles in general.

As for the drift vs race debade. Well it's meaningless and for sure It's not covered in simplistic examples.

In a Race (Racing) a small mistake can ve corrected through the next laps if you are good , in drifting a small mistake takes you out of the way.

There is not an objective way to mesure how big or small a mistake is in different sports. From what I have experienced a "small" mistake can put you out of races too. And from my prespective it's much easyer to cover your mistake while you are always sliding at an angle. But all this is nonesence... what makes it hard is the competition. It's a matter of how competitive your oponent/s is/are.

[Shadowww]

what makes it hard is the competition. It's a matter of how competitive your oponent/s is/are.QFT. A good example is Jakg's Caterham Experience Day :D

[March Hare]

All we need is bigger steering angle :p.
And more power. Yes, the favourite drift car, the XRT, is way underpowered compared to real drift cars. And the right setup. Obviously. And skill. Yes, it does need skill. I know because I'm not good at drifting and I don't have skills.

How is it that so many LFS drifters think that if they get a little more steering angle they turn into 1337 d0r1ft0rZ.

Still, even if I can't drift that well, I'm all for adding a more drift oriented car into LFS. Huge power with humongous turbo lag. Extreme steering angle. Ridiculously large spoilerage. And detachable bumpers as it seems to be the norm in drifting to leave your bumper in a hedge.

[Töki (HUN)]

Same, from another angle. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOVqaJzyMI

:schwitz:

[Scatter]

If anything, this game has taught me how to drive... sort of.
First driver's training yesterday and I actually did very well. However, I don't think this game replicates the numbness of power steering found in most cars.

That was first and formost the biggest difference (to me) between driving in this game and in real life. You can pretty much say that all these cars in LFS have no power steering so it gives you very raw feedback. Now I can't say the same for the Camry I drove. It felt like I was driving Jell-O but I had a good feel for the brakes and accelerator as well as steering angle.

[Jakg]

That car was well over the maximum angle of the tyres - I think thats way more luck than skill (although i'm sure skill helped a little).

EDIT - not tyres, steering.

[AndroidXP]

The "maximum angle of the tyres" being...?

[Jakg]

point fail.

What I meant was the car is at full lock, the but the car is rotated more than that amount of steering - i.e. 36° of lock means the car can be rotated 36° sideways and the wheel can be pointing the right way. On that car it has a lot of lock (45°?) but it looks to be at over 100° at some points.

God i'm bad at explaining this.

[Shadowww]

Jakg, so you want to say you can't do >36° drift in a XRT which has 36° steering lock without any luck? if yes you are wrong.

[Jakg]

No, thats not what i'm saying - but at that extreme angle i'd say it's less amazing car control and more luck starting to take over.

[JeffR]

No one seems to have mentioned that the video in the original post is of multiple runs, not the same run. The first sequence shows a run which appears to have been done within the steering lock angle of the car. The next sequence, labled "replay", isn't a replay of the first run but is a diffferent run. This time the car yaws well beyond the steering lock angle, but the front end slides more than the rear end as the driver lifts off the throttle, and the car eventually recovers. The third sequence, "in car" appears to be the same or similar to the second run, going beyond lock angle and then recovering.

I still think Tiff's 100 mph power oversteer in the 5th gear episode featuring the Z06 was more impressive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L729eQpudKk

[kaynd]

It's the same run... You just get a different perseption from different camera angles. Only in corner entry and the first half of the corner he is holding a drift angle above 90degrees. As he powers out of the corner, he reduces the drift angle to what front wheels can cope with.

And how exactly you know in what speed Tiff's drifts are? Because he says "and here I am. ballancing in a hundred miles/hour blah blah"? He is a tv show presenter... he is supposed to exagerate in his coments to make it even more thrilling to whach.

[theirishnoob]

Im wondering if this can be done in lfs some day :D

Dont start the drift war-flame just take a look from physics perspective

Thanks


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBSVqOc-CN4

Respect Kawabata :thumb:

thats lame.

Next thread.

[John5200]

yeah I don´t get whats so extremely special about it (if course it takes tons of skills) but IMO its just logical. a sweet example is here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s1JQu1O70

he does almost 90° and since it´s a almost 90° turn he doesn´t have much problems with getting it straght again. its just that he has to trive forewards again

[Meanie]

I think this is pretty cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Tiodhkv7g

:P

It's a shame that this isn't the fastest way around a track.

[CUPRAMAN]

As you see in video the steer lock in higher than normal cars, so you need more steer lock. Its all about
Ackermann steering geometry

Read: http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Ackermann_steering_geometry :thumbsup:

[Sueycide_FD]

I think this is pretty cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Tiodhkv7g

:P

It's a shame that this isn't the fastest way around a track.


I think Vettel's over the curb was way more exciting during the race :shrug:

[AndRand]

I think this is pretty cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Tiodhkv7g

:P

It's a shame that this isn't the fastest way around a track.
heh and he floored it :D
As you see in video the steer lock in higher than normal cars, so you need more steer lock. Its all about
Ackermann steering geometry

Read: http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Ackermann_steering_geometry :thumbsup:
I dont know what ackerman has to do in this situation :really: I think steer lock is prevailing here to catch such slide. With ackerman, as I reckon, you can balance front wheels grip that would differ in small and big angles :smileypul

[CUPRAMAN]

Read better the page of Ackermann. All the angles of the steer have a point in steering. The car in video can do only drift nothing else only hard steer. If you drive that car in street you will spin in a sec..... If you read carefully you will understand the mention of Ackermann geometry.

[AndRand]

Read better the page of Ackermann. All the angles of the steer have a point in steering. The car in video can do only drift nothing else only hard steer. If you drive that car in street you will spin in a sec..... If you read carefully you will understand the mention of Ackermann geometry.
I know what ackerman geomety is about. What I wanted to notice is that when you have more Ackerman (I think more pararell steer in LFS) front wheels have relatively more equal grip in both small and big angles than with less ackerman when both wheels have good grip in small angles and less grip in big angles what makes it another balancing method.

[kaynd]

Read better the page of Ackermann. All the angles of the steer have a point in steering. The car in video can do only drift nothing else only hard steer. If you drive that car in street you will spin in a sec..... If you read carefully you will understand the mention of Ackermann geometry.

Where exactly in the "page of Ackermann" did you read this?
"The car in video can do only drift" :Looking_a Not at all. A drift car is not neseserily an usntrable car...
Ackermann geometry defines the relative difference in angles between the front two wheels according to steer radius, wheel track and wheelbase of the car. It does not determine the maximum steering angle of the wheels... let alone making the car unstable...
I didn't want to insult anyone but you are asking for it.
Stop talking about things you can barely understand.

[CUPRAMAN]

When you use full steer lock (as drift) you need parallel front wheels in a turn.. That is not use in city\race drive. The drift setup of the steer has nothing to do with the sets of other uses and in this case (video) he use as much as possible steer angle he can have (different top mount\steering arm\caster\rack box) The tip on the fast steer is to use short rack box for faster steer.

[CUPRAMAN]

Where exactly in the "page of Ackermann" did you read this?
"The car in video can do only drift" :Looking_a Not at all. A drift car is not neseserily an usntrable car...
Ackermann geometry defines the relative difference in angles between the front two wheels according to steer radius, wheel track and wheelbase of the car. It does not determine the maximum steering angle of the wheels... let alone making the car unstable...
I didn't want to insult anyone but you are asking for it.
Stop talking about things you can barely understand.

I am engineer for 10 years now and you still study so STFU and do your homework.

[kaynd]

At first you said it's all about Ackerman... and now you say that in drifting you need paralel wheels in full lock (so no Ackermann geometry at all) And then you bring all these other aspects that indeed have a great effect on car's behaviour but do not necessarily make it unstable or hard to drive.

So this sould be an easy one for you.
Does any of thiese mods eliminate Ackerman geometry?
http://kpi.squarespace.com/steering-angle-modifications/



I still think you have a very limited understanding of what you are talking about but I am not going to bother with this anymore.

I am engineer for 10 years now and you still study so STFU and do your homework.


Ok ok I get it. No more talking to you Mister "engineer".

[Rubenz81]

Totally different car and purpose, still estreme angles :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApquPu87SaI&feature=related

[Wm. Peddle]

If you know the exit angle of what ever corner you are drifting through, then the only limitation is owner/operator. LFS has everything you need to drift the same as the video. If you want to drift the drive, PRACTICE.
Personally I drive to avoid drift, but exiting a drift clean and hot is its own satisfaction.:thumb:

[CUPRAMAN]

+ that i agree for the driver

If you know the exit angle of what ever corner you are drifting through, then the only limitation is owner/operator. LFS has everything you need to drift the same as the video. If you want to drift the drive, PRACTICE.
Personally I drive to avoid drift, but exiting a drift clean and hot is its own satisfaction.:thumb:

For the car:

At first you said it's all about Ackerman...

Ok ok I get it. No more talking to you Mister "engineer".



You are so brainless. Nothing of what i said erase my previous words...... all of the compoments in the front axel makes different in geometry and steer.

[JeffR]

No one seems to have mentioned that the video in the original post is of multiple runs

It's the same run... You just get a different perseption from different camera angles. Only in corner entry and the first half of the corner he is holding a drift angle above 90degrees.In the first run he doesn't exceed 90 degrees, and the hand brake is used for a much shorter period of time. Take a closer look at that video again.

[xaotik]

In the first run he doesn't exceed 90 degrees, and the hand brake is used for a much shorter period of time. Take a closer look at that video again.

Actually he does exceed 90 degrees in turn entry, use the lines of the track for reference. The telephoto lens on the camera used from that side of the track sort of flattens it. I don't doubt it's the same video no more than I doubt the ear-bleeding enthusiasm of the commentators.

If you drive that car in street you will spin in a sec.....

Why?

[Kamrock]

Why?

What Cupraman is refering to (I believe) is the unatural toe created by removing the Ackerman for drifting purposes...

Ackerman is there to keep the car stable in the turns, as both wheels are pointing in the same direction relative to the direction they want to go... this affect is the opposite of what you want to happen in a drift vehicle... so they get rid of it, which makes the car unstable again... it would result in positive toe (IE the tyres will try to get closer together when driving normally through corners, reducing their grip quite a bit)

[ghost racer]

Not so much lock here.. Also since everyone says the tires feel like soap..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--LpbLuwJJQ

[xaotik]

I have no idea where the notion that an unstable car is better than a stable car to do controllable-ass-swinging-through-turns with comes from. I'd imagine that a drift car is set-up to be highly controllable at extreme situations which are not useful for normal driving or racing but not that it's an instantly spinning monster.

What Cupraman is refering to (I believe) is the unatural toe created by removing the Ackerman for drifting purposes...

I wouldn't know about un-natural, but Ackerman steering geometry will have similar effects to a setup with negative toe at high steering angles - most commonly used in slow turns. So I guess Ackerman reduces un-natural toe with further un-natural means the more one turns.

However a much better and in-depth explanation, citing various sources, is available here:

http://www.racing-car-technology.com.au/Steering%20Ackerman4.doc

It also features a nice section regarding race cars and why some engineers opt for no ackerman, others for negative ackerman and others for >100% ackerman geometry. All of them for the sake of stability and speed.

So, based on the fact that race engineers seem to find pros for all these extremes and all of them seem to benefit stability, I'd say that Ackerman geometry is probably a minor factor by which to determine the overall stability or instability of a vehicle.

[Kamrock]

I have no idea where the notion that an unstable car is better than a stable car to do controllable-ass-swinging-through-turns with comes from. I'd imagine that a drift car is set-up to be highly controllable at extreme situations which are not useful for normal driving or racing but not that it's an instantly spinning monster.



I wouldn't know about un-natural, but Ackerman steering geometry will have similar effects to a setup with negative toe at high steering angles - most commonly used in slow turns. So I guess Ackerman reduces un-natural toe with further un-natural means the more one turns.

However a much better and in-depth explanation, citing various sources, is available here:

http://www.racing-car-technology.com.au/Steering%20Ackerman4.doc

It also features a nice section regarding race cars and why some engineers opt for no ackerman, others for negative ackerman and others for >100% ackerman geometry. All of them for the sake of stability and speed.

So, based on the fact that race engineers seem to find pros for all these extremes and all of them seem to benefit stability, I'd say that Ackerman geometry is probably a minor factor by which to determine the overall stability or instability of a vehicle.


As you have said the Ackerman is there to decrease the toe in corners... and as the perfect racing line includes all four wheels having as much grip as they can and the by the nature of using two wheels next to each other will force one of them to take a longer (and looser) line when turning the Ackerman allows each to move 'forward' in relativity to the line that tyre is taking. When you remove the Ackerman (or increase it beyond 100%) your tyres are no longer working with each other but are working against each other (either trying to push together in the case of < 100% ackerman, or they are pulling away from each other in the case of > 100% ackerman) thus making the car less stable when trying to drive it normally (IE not drifting)

It does make sense to remove Ackerman (almost) completely for drift reasons, as two wheels pointing in EXACTLY the same direction will have more effect on a car that has lost control (IE is no longer gripping the road), just like taking corners on loose terrain it is often quicker to get the car pointing in the right direction and the hammer down then to mess around with this whole avoiding loosing grip in the first place...

[kaynd]

The point here was not to explain what settings favor drifting.
Yes generally low or no Ackerman geometry will be better when going always with opposite lock. But only if this doesn't compromise the maximum wheel angle like it happens in LFS. As I said in my first post, In 100% parallel steering you have a maximum of 36degrees steering angle in both wheels but in 0% parallel steering->full Ackerman geometry at XRT you have 43degreese for the leading wheel and ~30degreese for the trailing wheel. So there must be a compromise between keeping the tires parallel and having maximum lock at the leading wheel.

But apart from this. I, AndRad and xaotic responded to some frivolous points cupraman tried to state using the “stfu” attitude.
A user who actualy prooved to me his quality by senting several PM's swearing at me.

mooving on
As you have said the Ackerman is there to decrease the toe in corners... and as the perfect racing line includes all four wheels having as much grip as they can and the by the nature of using two wheels next to each other will force one of them to take a longer (and looser) line when turning the Ackerman allows each to move 'forward' in relativity to the line that tyre is taking. When you remove the Ackerman (or increase it beyond 100%) your tyres are no longer working with each other but are working against each other (either trying to push together in the case of < 100% ackerman, or they are pulling away from each other in the case of > 100% ackerman) thus making the car less stable when trying to drive it normally (IE not drifting)
This is a simplistic approach that applies only in low rolling speeds.

While cornering in speed, none of the tires actually faces the direction it is going. Tires produce maximum grip at a certain slip percentage.
When cornering, this slip percentage is covered by the slip angle and the speed in which the tire is traveling.
The effective slip percentage of any tire depends in many aspects like the tire’s design, the compound it’s made, the temperature it’s operating, the air pressure that it keeps it inflated and the vertical load it pushes it to the ground.

Keeping it simple. The greater vertically loaded tire produces its maximum grip at a higher slip percentage (or angle if we are talking about a turn) comparing to a less loaded tire.
It’s a known fact that in a turn, while creating some lateral forces, the outside tires get loaded a lot more than the inside tires. That makes the outside tires produce their maximum grip at a higher slip angle than what the inside tires need to be effective. Here is where the anti-Ackerman geometry comes into play, (the more you steer the more toe in is applied) especially in situations when track conditions and the car's setup tend to stress the front outside tire way more than the inside.
Situation like these are met in fast tracks with wide corners using a car that has grater roll resistance at the front, and doesn't produce much downforce.

In slower tracks with tight corners where weight transfer transitions last longer and you are forced to enter corners while braking (that makes both front wheels more equally loaded), some percentage of Ackermann geometry (the more you steer the more toe out is applied) is beneficial in making the car to turn.

100% ackerman implementation would be efficient only in parking speed turning. This is the only case where a road car keeps both front wheels equaly loaded when turning. So no manufacturer realy uses it. Thats why you hear thiese tire sqealing noises while turning in parking spaces covered in that smooth surface.

Ackerman, anti-Ackerman at nearly any sensible percent or fully paralell steering, isn’t nesseserily going to make the car spin happy on its own. So no it’s not all about Ackermann, it’s a combination of several factors around suspension geometry and stiffness that play a far grater role than this.

[Kamrock]

The point here was not to explain what settings favor drifting.
Yes generally low or no Ackerman geometry will be better when going always with opposite lock.
But I, AndRad and xaotic responded to some frivolous points cupraman tried to state using the “stfu” attitude.
A user who actualy prooved to me his quality by senting several PM's swearing at me.

mooving on

This is a simplistic approach that applies only in low speed rolling speeds.

While cornering in speed, none of the tires actually faces the direction it is going. Tires produce maximum grip at a certain slip percentage.
When cornering, this slip percentage is covered by the slip angle and the speed in which the tire is traveling.
The effective slip percentage of any tire depends in many aspects like the tire’s design, the compound it’s made, the temperature it’s operating, the air pressure that it keeps it inflated and the vertical load it pushes it to the ground.

Keeping it simple. The greater vertically loaded tire produces its maximum grip at a higher slip percentage (or angle if we are talking about a turn) comparing to a less loaded tire.
It’s a known fact that in a turn, while creating some lateral forces, the outside tires get loaded a lot more than the inside tires. That makes the outside tires produce their maximum grip at a higher slip angle than what the inside tires need to be effective. Here is where the anti-Ackerman geometry comes into play, (the more you steer the more toe in is applied) especially in situations when track conditions and the car's setup tend to stress the front outside tire way more than the inside.
Situation like these are met in fast tracks with wide corners using a car that has grater roll resistance at the front, and doesn't produce much downforce.

In slower tracks with tight corners where weight transfer transitions last longer and you are forced to enter corners while braking (that makes both front wheels more equally loaded), some percentage of Ackermann geometry (the more you steer the more toe out is applied) is beneficial in making the car to turn.

100% ackerman implementation would be efficient only in parking speed turning. This is the only case where a road car keeps both front wheels equaly loaded when turning. So no manufacturer realy uses it. Thats why you hear thiese tire sqealing noises while turning in parking spaces covered in that smooth surface.

Ackerman, anti-Ackerman at nearly any sensible percent or fully paralell steering, isn’t nesseserily going to make the car spin happy on its own. So no it’s not all about Ackermann, it’s a combination of several factors around suspension geometry and stiffness that play a far grater role than this.

Too true... hehe, I was just pointing out the fact that it does play a part, and will decrease the stability of car when you do remove the ackerman completely (which was where Cupraman was originally coming from, even if he did overstress it). The slip-angles of the tyres should always be considered when laying down Ackerman, I was simply using the purest most simple way of looking at it...

Here's a question the drift followers might be able to answer me... are the tyres they use standard radial tyres?

On a bit of a side notice, Xaotik... I am rather interested in the list of books refered in that .doc you linked and how they come up with different results... I might have to have a look at a couple of them... hehe

[ZzeCoOl]

In the first run he doesn't exceed 90 degrees, and the hand brake is used for a much shorter period of time. Take a closer look at that video again.


This is a part of the Official d1gp round and i have the whole "race" or event call it as you like.....


But this isnt my point. My point is if we can replicate this one at lfs and most of us can easily understand that it is much easier with more steering lock a feature that will not do ANY HARM to the racing community ! right?

Im racing in lfs too (i like LR servers :D after the death of CTRA) and i barely use the half of steering lock , but when i drift i use it all the way and most of the times when trying something "good" i need to step off the gas and keep it at full lock sliding until it reduce the sliding angle and be "driftable" again..... IF only i had more steering angle !! then it will be a new potential for the drifting community and a hell lot of fun

We all want lfs to be better and better and im not a kid asking for bumbers stickers and the all good bunch of sh** things that makes "drifting" or call it this nice driving technic looks so childish

As for the guy that said that lfs isnt the same with real life sliding i managed to make a small vid that you can easily take a look that my handwork is exacly the same like in lfs .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW5MNBNsaLY

(The car is an almost stock silvia s14a)

The main differences between lfs and real life drifting is the bumps, g forces and the biggest one is FEAR once you are done with this handwork and footwork is almost the same

Keep it clean

Thank you

[spyshagg]

If a car can do it, LFS should allow it.

its not like Motorbike or surfing fans come here to complain. Drifting is about cars as well.

[Jakg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW5MNBNsaLY

(The car is an almost stock silvia s14a)
That video is really disoerientating :Looking_a

[ZzeCoOl]

That video is really disoerientating :Looking_a


Yeap its about a statement that lfs drifting isnt like real life :P .Have nothing to do with the steering lock lets forget it


:x

[Ringnes]

Why cant they just make a LFS Drift Mod! More steering and more HP

And take money for it! I can pay for it! and much other will do it to!

Come one LFS Makers, make us Drift people happy!

\\Ringnes
Norwegian Pro Drifter

[The Very End]

Shut up you imbeed dwarf... oh I forgot..we're of same blood.. well **** us!


/joke

[AndRand]

Ackerman, anti-Ackerman at nearly any sensible percent or fully paralell steering, isn’t nesseserily going to make the car spin happy on its own. So no it’s not all about Ackermann, it’s a combination of several factors around suspension geometry and stiffness that play a far grater role than this.
I dont remember if that has been posted in Improvements Suggestion section - to have antiAckermann also (I understand that we have only Ackermann in Parallel Steering setting) :thumb:

[ZzeCoOl]

Shut up you imbeed dwarf... oh I forgot..we're of same blood.. well **** us!



Aha !! You again !!! dont make me post your replay :x

:D:D:D:D

[The Very End]

Aha !! You again !!! dont make me post your replay :x

:D:D:D:D

Don't you dare....

[jaykay3000]

If anything, this game has taught me how to drive... sort of.
First driver's training yesterday and I actually did very well. However, I don't think this game replicates the numbness of power steering found in most cars.

That was first and formost the biggest difference (to me) between driving in this game and in real life. You can pretty much say that all these cars in LFS have no power steering so it gives you very raw feedback. Now I can't say the same for the Camry I drove. It felt like I was driving Jell-O but I had a good feel for the brakes and accelerator as well as steering angle.

Plug a controller in without force feedback then that's pretty much what driving a real car can be like in certain conditions, you can still 'feel' the car but your slightly more detached. I.e going from my mini to a golf, it's all basically the same but slightly different.

Plus in a real car you get a lot of feeling of the car through your butt/spine which your less likley to get with a wheel and pedals playing lfs.

But your right though, lfs is good for showing the fundamentals.

[Stiggie]

Why would we need more steering angle, we just need announcers that go DAHHHHHDUM DOP DUM DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

LOL, sig material. :)

[hp999]

In LFS,I think XRT(for example) will spin out. And as you can see from the inside view he held the same angle all the time(except when he drifted out of the corner). But,in LFS,you can't do that on full lock. Long story short - possible,but you got to have really good skillz.

[Kamrock]

Plug a controller in without force feedback then that's pretty much what driving a real car can be like in certain conditions, you can still 'feel' the car but your slightly more detached. I.e going from my mini to a golf, it's all basically the same but slightly different.

Plus in a real car you get a lot of feeling of the car through your butt/spine which your less likley to get with a wheel and pedals playing lfs.

But your right though, lfs is good for showing the fundamentals.


Power steering is just added weight, and should be kept to Forklifts, HGVs and the odd luxury limosine... I personally dislike power steering on anything that weighs less than 1400kgs it's a waste of weight and power...

If I've got problems parking I go a touch faster... and that's the only reason I can see for putting Power Steering in a car...

Just one reason I love my CR-X

EDIT: For comparison, I think I get more information from my wheel in the CR-X then I do in any of the FWDs in LFS... but that should change with the tyre update I would think...

[JasonJ]

[snip]

EDIT: For comparison, I think I get more information from my wheel in the CR-X then I do in any of the FWDs in LFS... but that should change with the tyre update I would think...
I doubt that very much....
FFB flavour enhancer (experiment) (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=56690&highlight=enhancer)

[Kamrock]

I doubt that very much....
FFB flavour enhancer (experiment) (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=56690&highlight=enhancer)

Meh? You doubt I feel more or doubt it'll get better?

With both the Goodyear Tourers and the cheap as chips Arrowspeed tyres on there I could feel so much under the wheel. (I know it's criminal to put cheap tyres on a car like the CR-X which is why I had them all replaced with the Tourers)

[JasonJ]

If you read that thread though, I doubt you will feel more because LFS seems to remove (dampen out) most of the FFB effects it has available to it. Some slight changes to the tyres physics won't fix that. It might feel somewhat better, but only marginly. I don't think the full potential is realised.

Just with that mod you can tap the throttle repeatively and really feal some amazing weight shift in the front. You feel the curbs stronger and you feel most things that are just lost.

[logitekg25]

i M NOT SURE IF THIS IS OFF TOPIC, BUT I JUST skimmed through and realised that my caps lock was on :razz: :x

i just read the last post, ant the ffb on some cars like xrt is pretty heavy, but then i drive the fxo, which doesnt way too much less (does it :really:) and it is really light but active :shrug:

[ZzeCoOl]

FFB in lfs depents on the setup too. Im changing lfs ffb on the fly with " < and >" in every set car so that i have the feeling i like most

Wheel + some realistic FFB prolly makes you slower from other players that doesnt use so strong ffb or not at all (mouse) Especialy in cars like FOX is you use Drivers ffb 100 and a nice let say 40-50 in game ffb one tap can take the wheel off your hands , plus if you wave your tale accidentaly wheel is very aggresive even if you do quite good and smooth throttle work.

I use about 35 in FOX but maybe lower at T1 when it going to be carnage .. Fox junkies u know.... :x:x:D

[RasmusL]

Wow that FFB dll really ruins the FFB :shrug: It's just completely random what happens.
I think LFS has one of the best FFB systems, although it could use some improvements. Still, it's way better than any other I've tried.

[JasonJ]

you have to turn down the ingame FFB to use that dll mod.
I'm using 10% with the dll and it feels as strong as vanilla (no mod) at 40%

It is not for everyone.

[Kamrock]

If you read that thread though, I doubt you will feel more because LFS seems to remove (dampen out) most of the FFB effects it has available to it. Some slight changes to the tyres physics won't fix that. It might feel somewhat better, but only marginly. I don't think the full potential is realised.

Just with that mod you can tap the throttle repeatively and really feal some amazing weight shift in the front. You feel the curbs stronger and you feel most things that are just lost.

I haven't tried that mod yet... but if it improves the feel of the rather dull FFB I will give it a bash... hehe

I agree, the FXO does feel a touch too light (wind the FFB up, and find I can hardly move the wheel for the XRT).

[masternick]

it was removed, afaik, because real cars don't have that much lock (without some serious steering/suspension modifications, ie Competition Drift cars)

Not trying to flame, just inform.

getting more steering lock is a pretty basic and cheap mod on most Japanese cars

would cost me $67 for a steering lock spacer that would take about 30 mins to install and i would gain afair bit of lock

http://www.ajps.com.au/parts/extra_lock_spacers.asp

thats only 1 cheap mod to get more steering, there are alot more ways to gain steering lock for less then $200 and afew hours installing them

its really basic stuff and fine to use on a street car

i dont get why there isnt more lock, such a small thing makes a huge difference

also @ the ppl saying drifting is easy or that racing is harder, have u ever tried to drift? it has a much higher learning curve then racing, its a different set of skills, both take alot of skill to do well

[JeffR]

As you have said the Ackerman is there to decrease the toe in corners... and as the perfect racing line includes all four wheels having as much grip as they canAll this Ackerman stuff is ignoring the fact that the outside tires have more downforce than the inside tires because the lateral forces translate into an outwards torque on the car. Because of the difference in downforce, the inside tires achieve maximum lateral force at lower slip angles than the outside tires, so you'd want some amount of toe-in at all times.

In a non-downforce car, the forces will be about the same regardless of the cornering radius. In a high-downforce car, the forces are much higher in larger radius turns due to the higher speeds involved. The setups for those cars will take this into account.

Another issue is that few real race tracks have small radius turns, and for those that do, the driving method used for hairpin like turns relies more on braking and acceleration than cornering speed at the apex.

[bunder9999]

i just read the last post, ant the ffb on some cars like xrt is pretty heavy, but then i drive the fxo, which doesnt way too much less (does it :really:) and it is really light but active :shrug:

i always thought that was because the fxo is fwd and has tons of power... :shrug:

[logitekg25]

i am not sure, but even when im not under power there is pretty much no weight on the wheel and i cant control it :x

then every once in a while i get a curb just right that sends me and my wheel flying :razz: