Is CTRA back up? [ No :o) ]

[Senninha25]

Hi all,

Before you start the flame war, please read this.
I have stumbled upon CTRA's (apparently inactive) website. Surprise of surprises, it was running, and it had all stats, even the latest races (before closure) were showing! Thing is that the points aren't showing (except in rankings) and you can't log in.
If you think all this is bollocks, then check it for yourselves: http://www.raceauthority.com/

Hell, I'll even put a screenshot for those hard-to-change minds.

I'm not doubting anyone with these last sentences (at least that wasn't the intention).

Cheers

[dawesdust_12]

No.


Sam has been using it as part of his portfolio to get other jobs AFAIK.

[Senninha25]

Pity. LFS isn't half as good without CTRA.

[Senninha25]

Do you know about any league with more or less 10 drivers? Because in a 15+ driver league I'd lag to death.
Not to mention I give people a hard time trying to get past me.
I'll only join a league when I get a proper PC and spend a bit more time racing.

[jrd.racer]

Do you know about any league with more or less 10 drivers? Because in a 15+ driver league I'd lag to death.
Not to mention I give people a hard time trying to get past me.
I'll only join a league when I get a proper PC and spend a bit more time racing.


Exactly the same here!!

[-NightFly-]

what's CTRA?


it's long forgotten past, so deal with it.

[VoiD]

This: http://www.raceauthority.com/stats/?licence=-NightFly- :D

[JO53PHS]

Do you know about any league with more or less 10 drivers?

Yes I do. The Mini-FBM (http://www.lfsforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=225) series run by New Dimension Racing

:tilt:

[The Very End]

What's all this idiot rant "LFS is not half as good as when CTRA was up" etc etc, there are LOTS of good servers but you lazy whining kids just whines without backing up your statement.
Shut up allready, leave the forum, go racing and then open your mouths.

Canot belive this forum is filled with so many whiners, that whines on absolutely everything jeez! LR, FM, GTR server is just some of them, and there are tons of other servers to play on. The only reason why you liked CTRA was because it had active admins and because your ego-meter did rise when you got more points.

LR - absolutely the same thing. GTR (not sure one the first part of the name) offers fast paced racing in the gtr cars. FM servers handles the formula racing, and they all doing it pretty damn well.

So for love of god and this forum, stop whining about CTRA's death when you don't even know what other servers LFS have to offer.

[z-ro 8]

TVE needs a group hug :)

[The Very End]

Absolutely not, I am just very irritated by all this whining on forum allready. Why can't people just.. well be cool and have a cool time instead of whining at every possible opertunity? :shrug:
Also, the ones that whines about the servers are usually the ones that have not tested more than roughly 5-10% of the servers in LFS.

So sorry for going so hard on you, but please back up your statement before you whine. Saying that LFS isn't the same without CTRA is a lie.

[Senninha25]

Yes I do. The Mini-FBM (http://www.lfsforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=225) series run by New Dimension Racing

:tilt:
Wasn't it 25 drivers in the only race I entered?

[peterules]

i disagree strongly, i think CTRA got out of control with mass playing, crashing (not purposfully but due to people spinning and mass pile ups) etc.

I think that lfs is good with leagues etc, if leagues didnt exist, lfs would get hugly boring quickly. having said that, there are plenty of decent hosts, you just need to look a little and try it.

For once i agree with James (OMG)

I used to be addicted to CTRA SS Servers. Since it closed it has open the doors for many other types of racing for me - leagues/pickup racing/different combos etc.

It was a good system when it worked but highly addictive. Going cold turkey was a good thing tbh. :D

[AndRand]

Mh just join some leagues :thumb:
Do you know any with quali laptimes around 107% of WR and no need for regular races?

[JO53PHS]

Wasn't it 25 drivers in the only race I entered?

Well last round was postponed because we only had 5 drivers :doh:

[Steven Seagal Is The Co]

i disagree strongly, i think CTRA got out of control with mass playing, crashing (not purposfully but due to people spinning and mass pile ups) etc.

hire some moars admins and rent some servers(really cheap, i read 2 47slot servers cost only 6 pounds or something!)

[The Very End]

The costs is not the problem, the biggest problem is keeping it clean. As soon as the server gets known, it attracks all sort of crazy bastards on it, and it's completely ruining the server if it's not moderated 24/7.

It's like a fulltime job keeping a populated and popular server clean :schwitz:

[dawesdust_12]

Yes, except the CTRA was more than just some servers and admins. There's the software itself for race managment/stats. Then the Website. You'd actually need a dedicated server hosted with lots of storage to keep the vast quantity of replays saved (every race was saved at some point).

A bit more expensive than 12GBP and some admins. Requires time for software development, hardware rental, datacenter space, etcera.

It's easy to say "yeah, just replace it in 5 mins"... but coming from ground zero, the CTRA was a lot more complex than you think.

[The Very End]

= It's a bitch, don't botter :D

[Steven Seagal Is The Co]

The costs is not the problem, the biggest problem is keeping it clean. As soon as the server gets known, it attracks all sort of crazy bastards on it, and it's completely ruining the server if it's not moderated 24/7.

It's like a fulltime job keeping a populated and popular server clean :schwitz:

admins could take shifts or something, plus how many admins would u need to keep everything neat and tidy? plus u could report some bastards to the admins using replays!

(well if we start getting some false accusations then we could implement a rule, that false accusations are bannable)

[dawesdust_12]

Yes, but then you have admins sitting there all the time, and admins making irrational decisions because they dislike someone.

The CTRA had a great system, you file a report, then all admins can take a look, and if something happened in error, it can be re-evaluated by a different admin. It needed no actual in-server time.

[Steven Seagal Is The Co]

Yes, except the CTRA was more than just some servers and admins. There's the software itself for race managment/stats. Then the Website. You'd actually need a dedicated server hosted with lots of storage to keep the vast quantity of replays saved (every race was saved at some point).


is the software deleten somehow? user can report themselves if they want.
i see raceauthority.com is still up.

[The Very End]

Trying to make up to 46 people (spectators counted) behaving is not an easy task, and good luck beeing the only admin trying to clean that mess up :D

Also, it's too much work. If there had been only one server it could go, but having several made the tast too hard. Then they also had to check all the reports manually... darn, that must have been a nightmare, I mean.. I got like 100 reports against me, just to check my replays would need some dedication from someone :tilt:

It grew too big for the team to handle, unless you plan to pay someone for the work it won't happen again.

[Steven Seagal Is The Co]

Yes, but then you have admins sitting there all the time, and admins making irrational decisions because they dislike someone.

The CTRA had a great system, you file a report, then all admins can take a look, and if something happened in error, it can be re-evaluated by a different admin. It needed no actual in-server time.


report the irrational decisions maker-admin and lose his license to ban someone.

[dawesdust_12]

The server software is safely locked away on a server far far away.
The actual website is up because SamH is using it to get jobs, so it's a good portfolio item.

You fail to grasp what anyone is saying. The website is in a frozen (and incorrect intentionally) state, People can't log in to prevent people from filing reports and such. THe software does still exist, but even if you did get a hold of it, servers and such are hard-coded in, so you'd never get it to work on your own.

EDIT:

Also, someone who may be acting "irrationally" at any given moment could think they're being rational. Without a database either to track who has been banned or not, you have nothing better than a public server with admins. No points or stats or a reporting foundation. The database to track every action of admin and users, is a good thing as it allows things to be assessed when everything is cooled down. not "OMG TVE HIT ME... admin goes /ban TVE 999".

[The Very End]

"OMG TVE HIT ME... admin goes /ban TVE 999".

:rofl:

[jrd.racer]

this thread went into chaos after i posted!

[DoC_uk]

Jeez people must just sit there all day refreshing the CTRA website addy in the vain hope that it comes back ...and the world is well again


Think this is the the 3rd OMFG ctra is back ..quick get the tissues im about to explode thread

If the guy that wrote it is using it on his CV , thats cool , its a nice piece of work ...... but please do us all a favor , and change summit in the addy so the numpties dont post "OMFG CTRA is back boff boff boff boff ahhhhh " type threads

[Becky Rose]

admins could take shifts or something, plus how many admins would u need to keep everything neat and tidy?
I would say you would want atleast 20 to satisfy the full userbase. The contribution that admins make fluctuates over time as real lives take precedent. To have a strong team capable of handling a popular suite of servers on a long term basis you'd want a good 20 or so admins. CTRA started with around 10 or so, and long term it wasnt enough and not enough fresh blood came onboard to replace admins as they left, which eventually led to the failure of the reporting system and ultimately closing of the system.

The server software is safely locked away on a server far far away.
I also have the core software (though not the website) and numerous prototypes and variations. The CTRA where using their own branch of the X-System software with a few bug fixes and tweaks but it's fundamentally the same tool as I have here.

Having said that I do not believe LFS would benefit from releasing the core application and I keep it only for reference. If I was to get behind a new system it would have a different focus to X-System, as times and the way LFS is played have changed.

servers and such are hard-coded in, so you'd never get it to work on your own.
Actually servers are configurable from configuration text files, they're fairly simple text files using a simple script system and easy to edit. X-System used a lot of text based configuration files to make it easily reconfigurable for Sam and the team without needing to be recompiled.

[dawesdust_12]

shh... I'm trying to get him to STFU re: the server being hard coded :p.

[Becky Rose]

shh... I'm trying to get him to STFU re: the server being hard coded :p.
Sorry, i'm too proud of what I did to let that one slide - you're suggesting bad code!

(Although when I look back at that code *hangs head in shame*...)

[Senninha25]

Jeez people must just sit there all day refreshing the CTRA website addy in the vain hope that it comes back ...and the world is well again


Think this is the the 3rd OMFG ctra is back ..quick get the tissues im about to explode thread

If the guy that wrote it is using it on his CV , thats cool , its a nice piece of work ...... but please do us all a favor , and change summit in the addy so the numpties dont post "OMFG CTRA is back boff boff boff boff ahhhhh " type threads
This is the first thread of them all, mate. And I don't take any pride in it whatsoever, it just came from a doubt stemming from the website being up, so please read the OP before making stupid, reasonless comments like that one.

A good way to "filter" cheaters, laggers and crashers would be imposing a limit on the number of drivers in the race. Well, it would help with the lag.
Can't think of anything else to lay off the Admins' stress.

[DoC_uk]

This is the first thread of them all, mate. And I don't take any pride in it whatsoever, it just came from a doubt stemming from the website being up, so please read the OP before making stupid, reasonless comments like that one.

Ok i was wrong ...there is only 1 , but still my case stands ... http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=60320&highlight=ctra


So how about you get a 'kin clue before spouting off your "OMFG CTRA is back boff boff boff boff ahhhhh " type threads


now stfu and go find a different web addy to sit there and refresh

[Senninha25]

don't you have anything else to do rather than talk crap all the time? I don't think I'm the one who should stfu when you are going offtopic (I'm being a hypocrit here but I don't go this far).

[Steven Seagal Is The Co]

Ok i was wrong ...there is only 1 , but still my case stands ... http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=60320&highlight=ctra


So how about you get a 'kin clue before spouting off your "OMFG CTRA is back boff boff boff boff ahhhhh " type threads


now stfu and go find a different web addy to sit there and refresh

why are u so revolting?
personally im interested in bump n jumps, i could have a go there, the tracks to choose from seems to be wide!

[DoC_uk]

don't you have anything else to do rather than talk crap all the time? I don't think I'm the one who should stfu when you are going offtopic (I'm being a hypocrit here but I don't go this far).

1. if its a fact then its not crap

2. its not off topic

3. you just don't like being proved wrong and so lower yourself to mindless random insults ...


Facts are , this HAS been discussed before and you just don't like that being pointed out to you .

suck it up m8

[DoC_uk]

why are u so revolting?
personally im interested in bump n jumps, i could have a go there, the tracks to choose from seems to be wide!


wat ?

did you even read the thread ...or this 1 http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=60320&highlight=ctra

im guessing not



Steven Seagal ..is he your hero ? or you just REALLY like him ? I kinda thought he got a little fat in the last few years , let him self go a little .. , bet you would love a 3 some with him and Jean-Claude Van Damme eh ? ...its ok to admit it m8


yay 201 posts in 6 years ...i'm such a forum whore ! Double century ..go me

[dawesdust_12]

You're quite possibly the most vile and repulsive forum member I've come across. Who pissed in your corn flakes this morning.

He made a thread because he noticed something regarding a website that is LFS related. I posted in response as to why it's up, and he reminisced about CTRA. Is that such a crime that you haffto go all forum retard on him?

and Becky, somewhere I have 1 or 2 iterations of the X-System code, I actually (shockingly) understand it, but could never do something of the same size. I are weak :p

[AlienT.]

In my humble opinion CTRA was the best thing in LFS, it single handidly got me totally hooked on sim racing. I have not enjoyed LFS so much since it's demise.

Ye I know there's plenty of other good servers, leagues etc but none as readily accessible for some quick pick up racing with a goal.

So poodleypips TVM I'll drink wine if I like :D

[Becky Rose]

I figured you did as you are listed as the first programmer ;) I actually just messaged Sam to see if we could clear up the credit issue, the last time we discussed it things where a bit fresh but that was all a long time ago and I'd like to have it on my cv too.

I code totally differently these days. In my latest cores each server is an object and each packet type a method of that object. This allows me to send the server object to a seperate processor thread. It access the live player list through a similar linked list system except the player objects now have methods associated, and I've included a mutex lock to prevent tread crashes.

What I'd like to do however is to have both a global player list and a player list for each server, as this would increase efficiency when dealing with large server volumes.

Basically I've gone a lot more OO these days, and tend to do most things multiple-threaded. I really would like to get up to date on my 3D coding though, I can do some real nice stuff but with my old OpenGL engine but there's so many new toys in modern 3D engines, but reall life and my partner all but moving in tends to make big projects incompleteable these days.

[DoC_uk]

You m8 can think and post what you like , but I for 1 can't see the point in another " i saw the CTRA site up and i'm gonna post " thread . If that makes me me vile and repulsive then so be it ... I'm not here to make Efriends, i post as i see fit or feel at the time , as is my right as i have paid my £24 (if thats ok with you)

He made a thread about a topic that has been discussed before , then came out with random shit that i can't even be assed to quote , inaccurate and unfounded ( look it up )

Ctra was a nice app , very well programed , and for the most part was very well moderated , BUT ...its GONE ... deal with it and move on


I guess you think I am not allowed to reply to idiots that cant get their facts right ?

stfu you vile repulsive fool

[Becky Rose]

If it wasn't for the off colour discussion of forum ettiquette some of this thread was ok to read. (Like seeing Dustin post repeatedly in a thread without mentioning Macs)

[dawesdust_12]

I was waiting to work it in somehow. :p I've actually just started myself to play more and more with C/C++. Most recently get my SLI-M attached with USB and code my own software for it (particularly to interface with an unsupported sim). It's tough but I'm working on it my best.



But Doc, I'm looking for where it says he can't make posts about whatever he wants.

Oh yeah.. He can post about whatever he wants (within logical reason) whenever and in whatever tone (again, within reason) he would like. It shows your mental capacity when you're unable to recognize this and begin to flame and insult him.

[Becky Rose]

I was waiting to work it in somehow. :p I've actually just started myself to play more and more with C/C++. Most recently get my SLI-M attached with USB and code my own software for it (particularly to interface with an unsupported sim). It's tough but I'm working on it my best.

that's really weird because I had a conversation with a team mate on facebook today about redoing the code for his dashes and guages if/when Scawen makes his changes to the Outguage protocol and I got geekily excited at the prospect of doing it! I just want to make the little needles go up and down on his dials and come up with a few creative ideas for his LCD readout. I am such a geek :/

[dawesdust_12]

Yeah, I'm having a bitch of a time with mine, mostly due to Visual Studio 2008 being retarded. I have a working piece of code, that compiles for someone else, but me, with the identical SDK and such and it won't go. It's very frustrating.

[DoC_uk]

But Doc, I'm looking for where it says he can't make posts about whatever he wants.

Oh yeah.. He can post about whatever he wants (within logical reason) whenever and in whatever tone (again, within reason) he would like. It shows your mental capacity when you're unable to recognize this and begin to flame and insult him.


No where i guess , but then am I able to make the same posts ? ( my tone being open to discussion)

I see many , many other posts pointing out that that the topic may have been discussed before . But wthout the response that you you so gracefully added to mine .

My original point being , that we have seen the CTRA posts before , and so I find its both repetative and annoying that we have to sit through th same old, same old rubbish as before ..

I am sorry if this offends you

But I stand by my original post ..................CTRA is gone ...deal with it and move on

[dawesdust_12]

You can post whatever you want, so long as you're not being overly abusive and condecending. Sadly you failed on that earlier.

[Becky Rose]

On the rare ocassions I touch C++ I do it in a third party IDE for Blitz and use bmk to build it (which derives from MinGW). I hate visual studio, I meen I literally cannot understand it. I'm unable to even type a cout in it. The whole thing just makes no sense to me. My idea of project management is an SVN and anything more complex than that just gets in the way of actual coding to me. Mind you if I was any good at C++ I'd be going for jobs doing it rather than making PHP which is, lets face it, an interpreted language. *sniff* it's like being a BASIC programmer in the 80s, I'm only cool in q group of nerds provided there are no REAL programmers present. :/

[DoC_uk]

You can post whatever you want, so long as you're not being overly abusive and condecending. Sadly you failed on that earlier.


If thats the case , you failed right afer . pot , kettle , black anyone ?

[Becky Rose]

Oh for God*'s sake Doc just move on, LFS is a community not a wiki, were capable of talking the same old crap a few times over just like a bunch of mates down the pub, afterall for many of us we do have drinks together or stay in touch outside of the game - intact I was on the phone to an LFS forum goer just a week back talking about random crap - that's what friends do...

If your contribution to the community is to try and restructure the forum as a time sorted database of available conversation topics then by all meens join a forum of MySQL geeks...

* could also be invisible pink unicorn.

[dawesdust_12]

On the rare ocassions I touch C++ I do it in a third party IDE for Blitz and use bmk to build it (which derives from MinGW). I hate visual studio, I meen I literally cannot understand it. I'm unable to even type a cout in it. The whole thing just makes no sense to me. My idea of project management is an SVN and anything more complex than that just gets in the way of actual coding to me. Mind you if I was any good at C++ I'd be going for jobs doing it rather than making PHP which is, lets face it, an interpreted language. *sniff* it's like being a BASIC programmer in the 80s, I'm only cool in q group of nerds provided there are no REAL programmers present. :/

Yeah, I'm kinda stuck with Visual Studio as I need the frikkin Windows SDK (for driver stuff). It's a pain to deal with so far as it solves dependencies and libraries in a stupid way (lets just randomly mix and match libraries between DDK and SDK!). I'm not terribly good, but I know enough to be dangerous although PHP is where I consider myself to be "knowledgable".

[DoC_uk]

Bollox to moving on ,my original point about the fact that this has been disscussed before still stands .

If you regard reapting yourself as usefull disscusion , then so be it , sorry but I didn't realise this was a closed disscussion between the select few

Ok I'm out , you and the select few can carry on and discuss the finer points of the CTRA or lack there of ...just seems a little misplaced

[Becky Rose]

Yeah, I'm kinda stuck with Visual Studio as I need the frikkin Windows SDK (for driver stuff). It's a pain to deal with so far as it solves dependencies and libraries in a stupid way (lets just randomly mix and match libraries between DDK and SDK!). I'm not terribly good, but I know enough to be dangerous although PHP is where I consider myself to be "knowledgable".
I do enjoy PHP on ocassion, I wrote an A* algoryhtm on a node based map the other day just for giggles and I really enjoyed it, but then of course had to deliver it via AJAX and handle it in Javascript in a cross browser compatible manner and *sigh* it just kills the fun... Well IE just kills the fun, the web languages are so crude still and PHP doesn't even have a consistent syntax, it's like coding with altzeimers. I do miss making actual software, but I think more and more the world is going Javascript/PHP. Which is a shame because there's no native 3D support and IE is really slow when you've got a large object stack in Javascript.

[dawesdust_12]

Well, there's actually a WebGL starting to come out in test builds to be used with javascript. Nightly builds of Webkit have it active AFAIK, and there's a test build of Firefox that has it integrated. It's actually awfully slick.

PHP is kinda inconsistent, but so long as you have the C Syntax, you can always write your own functions if you hate the built in ones. I think I like PHP becuase I can have instant gratification that "I DID THIS AND THIS HAPPENED" in like 5 or 10 lines whereas with C or C++, there's hundreds upon thousands of lines to go "OH YEAH, THIS LINE WAS DRAWN... BUT IT'S TRIPLE BUFFERED, ANTIALIASED AND CAN CHANGE COLOURS!".

Maybe it's the ADD of my generation :p

[Becky Rose]

Well, there's actually a WebGL starting to come out in test builds to be used with javascript.
now if we could find a way to get those IE users to update their browser when the 3D version comes out then I for one will be able to charge a lot more for what I can do :) Especially if the page itself is the drawablw canvas (as opposed to an active object on the page).

but so long as you have the C Syntax, you can always write your own functions
yes and no, the PHP function is interpreted not compiled as a native reserve word is. Now I've seen the practice you describe a lot, and variations of the concept. But the old game programmer in me finds innefficiency hard to stomach. Some things just make my spine tingle, and mostly those are things which needlessly waste CPU cycles!

And Lol on the ADD... :)

[dawesdust_12]

I dunno, I'll learn one day , it just takes focus.

[The Very End]

LFS is a community not a wiki, were capable of talking the same old crap a few times over just like a bunch of mates down the pub

A very good point there.

Senninha25 - sorry I was a bitch last night, I seriously needed a hug. I agree on that CTRA were a very good server, but my point were that there are a lot of other servers on LFS now, that is very good. I think even a lot of the servers are not well known, but offers statestics, moderating, ranks and more.

Might I suggest you tries out the LR server? There you have pretty much everything CTRA had, in a lightweighter version of it.
Also a less know but good server (if you like rallycross), is the RallyX server (marked something with norwegian blabla). This also offers report system, jokerlaps (you might need to wiki that one), rank system and more.

So in conclusion, yes, CTRA were a loss, but we have to move on. If we all sit on our backs and fight back and forth against eachothers we'll just end up splitting the community even more. Don't be affraight to try out new servers, and don't be affraight to spread the words about great servers, because they are there, if you take a look on the server list :)

[obsolum]

Why is this thread still not closed? I guess no one has brought it to SamH's attention yet?

[menantoll]

I really don't understand the constant wishes of people to have threads like this closed. You don't want to read it? Then don't. It's not rocket science.

This is a huge community, not every thread is going to be to everybodys liking. Personally, the programming stuff bores me but I just skim past it.

Eventually the conversation will come to an end and the thread will dissapear from the front page. Why insist on spoiling other peoples conversations just because there was a similar thread 6 months ago?* What makes your opinion more important than others?*

*These questions are pointed at all people who call for threads to be closed not just those in this thread.

[SamH]

I'm with you, Menantoll. Unless a thread is "poisonous" in some way, I don't see the need to close it. Becky said it best, it's a community forum not a Wiki.

The question about the CTRA is posed and answered in the first couple of posts. The discussion about WebGL and web programming, meanwhile, is interesting to me and as with the last thread, I imagine some are seeing the opportunity to review their CTRA stats and reminisce a little. Nobody is being hurt, no harm is being done :)

[The Moose]

Why is this thread still not closed?

Well apart from Doc's foul rantings (what a horrible little man he is) there's nothing in this thread that's a reason to close it.

If they closed every thread on a topic that's been discussed before there would only be 5 new threads a day here ;)

[Gills4life]

I'm not here to make Efriends, i post as i see fit or feel at the time , as is my right as i have paid my £24 (if thats ok with you)


pot , kettle , black anyone ?

:doh:

Surely the same applies to Senninha. You have no more rights than anyone else, so why try and tear the shit out of someone else for posting and asking a few questions?

[obsolum]

If they closed every thread on a topic that's been discussed before there would only be 5 new threads a day here ;)
Exactly, that would be so much better, don't you think? :razz:

[DoC_uk]

:doh:

Surely the same applies to Senninha. You have no more rights than anyone else, so why try and tear the shit out of someone else for posting and asking a few questions?


Tear the shit out of ? Oh please , some people need thicken the skin slightly :thumb:

[Gills4life]

Tear the shit out of ? Oh please , some people need thicken the skin slightly :thumb:

Oh ok. So being a dickhead to people is fine. It's everyone elses fault for being too soft. Gotcha :thumbsup:

[Kamrock]

I still beleive CTRA was awesome... it was born of a great philosphy... like all good ideas, however it was flawed from the beginning...

I beleive strongly that you cannot run such a project if you have an interest or a part in the system you are regulating... or at least the regulator/administration cannot be completely run by drivers/players of LFS

PS. Dustin... I can't stand Visual Studio either... I try to steer as clear from it as I possibly can.

[shiny_red_cobra]

Sam you should at least edit the title of the thread, add a big [NO] in there so people don't keep asking lol.

[DoC_uk]

Oh ok. So being a dickhead to people is fine. It's everyone elses fault for being too soft. Gotcha :thumbsup:

Seriously m8 , who the hell you think you are ? My points were valid and backed up with a link to prove it , so because YOU think i was "tearing the shit outta people" you get to call me a dickhead ?

Gotcha :thumbsup:

[Gills4life]

Seriously m8 , who the hell you think you are ? My points were valid and backed up with a link to prove it , so because YOU think i was "tearing the shit outta people" you get to call me a dickhead ?

Gotcha :thumbsup:

You had a hissy fit about there being 3 CTRA threads already and then backed your "point"(?) up with a link to 1. How does that make your point valid?

I think you are being a dickhead. Therefore I called you a dickhead. Much in the same that you have called people idiots, vile repulsive fools and told someone to such the **** up.

Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

[Senninha25]

Tear the shit out of ? Oh please , some people need thicken the skin slightly :thumb:
lol, you're the one who rants about this subject and we are the ones told to chill? haven't you been skipping some anger management classes? if your idea of this being another thread as the other one posted months ago stands, then why the heck were you posting here anyway? just read and shut your face if you're thinking about ranting.

[dawesdust_12]

Kamrock: The only reeason I'm using Visual Studio and not something like Dev-C++ is because I NEED the Windows DDK (Driver Dev Kit), and in Microsofs typical way, it's only compatible with Visual Studio. Although VS isn't as horrible as one might think, I just hate the way it resolves dependencies, becuase it ends up I'm compiling my program with say the Windows 7 version of SetupAPI.lib (stuff to do with DDK), but the built in VS version of hidsdi.lib which incurs (as one would expect) a shit-tonne of compiler errors. I've started to rectify this by making the include files I need totally local by copying them into my project but it's such a wasteful effort.

Maybe I'll haffto take the pussy way out and use something like C#. Avoids a lot of this bullshit with Visual studio sucking at compiling C++.

Also, Why do we haffto keep bickering? Doc_Uk is a prick, and everyone else is sane. Why get dragged down to his level?

[Kamrock]

Kamrock: The only reeason I'm using Visual Studio and not something like Dev-C++ is because I NEED the Windows DDK (Driver Dev Kit), and in Microsofs typical way, it's only compatible with Visual Studio. Although VS isn't as horrible as one might think, I just hate the way it resolves dependencies, becuase it ends up I'm compiling my program with say the Windows 7 version of SetupAPI.lib (stuff to do with DDK), but the built in VS version of hidsdi.lib which incurs (as one would expect) a shit-tonne of compiler errors. I've started to rectify this by making the include files I need totally local by copying them into my project but it's such a wasteful effort.



Lol, no I understand your problem... just saying I agree with you.

Although I have been using VS 2008 recently and it seems much better than it used to be... I still use Redhat core for most of my programming so GCC works the best... however with the success of Windows 7 and the new VS I might be tempted back from the command-prompt compiling...

[dawesdust_12]

i prefer XCode still. It's a lot better I find than VS or GCC (even though at it's core, it's GCC), mostly because it uses the whole "Framework" concept of OSX, which means that libraries and such are system wide, and compiled for any application to use to run or to compile.

Such a better system than having .lib files scattered everywhere. Makes life really easy.

[SamH]

Sam you should at least edit the title of the thread, add a big [NO] in there so people don't keep asking lol.

Good thinking, batman! LOL!

[The Very End]

That's abuse of power!! ABUSE, ABUUUSSSSEE RIOT ROOOOOOARRRR!!!!!!!!

[dawesdust_12]

Tor, I think you need a few more beers.

Go drink more beers.

[The Very End]

Just look on this picture of my table atm... I am barely sober from last night's action.. don't think my body will allow more alcohol in it... :(

[SamH]

I still beleive CTRA was awesome... it was born of a great philosphy... like all good ideas, however it was flawed from the beginning...

I can't remember what I said in the last thread, so I could be repeating myself..

There are aspects of the CTRA that were flawed from the beginning. The absence of a properly formed end-objective was its most fundamental flaw and this became more and more obvious as time passed, as friends achieved more and more disparate licenses. We introduced player monthly stats towards the end, using a GP Points system and if we'd had time to further the development, this would have countered many of the inherent problems of the licensing systems and career paths.

The CTRA was never intended (or I never intended it to be) a one-stop LFS shop. It was intended to be A place, not THE ONLY place to race on LFS. Unfortunately (for racing), most of the other capable InSim developers focused on Cruise applications rather than racing. Nothing we did with the CTRA was beyond the capabilities of others, but it's not really CTRA's fault that nobody took up the chalice at the time.

I beleive strongly that you cannot run such a project if you have an interest or a part in the system you are regulating... or at least the regulator/administration cannot be completely run by drivers/players of LFS
You've identified a core problem with ALL admined servers, and one that the CTRA struggled to address. Our admin team, at the start, was perfect. All admins were brilliantly impartial, meticulous with their attention to detail, and brilliant marshals. But outside of LFS there is life and you can't hit pause on that while you're processing reports. We needed admin turnover, and that was impossible to achieve.

Attracting new admins to handle the reports requires you to find people that you trust implicitly to be impartial in judging on-track incidents. That is far harder than people might realise. When you find someone who is genuinely impartial, part of the reason for their impartiality is that they're NOT that engrossed in LFS. Getting an admin to VOLUNTARILY go through the (often) mundane process of examining replays, assessing intent and apportioning blame when, in truth, they don't actually CARE that much about LFS is.. well, it's impossible. Unless you're paying them, of course. And to pay them, you have to have a system that's funded. Bottom line, LFSers don't like paying for things and though there were quite a few offers of cash and even a couple of offers to PAY CTRA staff, there were concerns within UKCT that the cost to CTRA's integrity would have been too much.

[CSU1]

Attracting new admins to handle the reports requires you to find people that you trust implicitly to be impartial in judging on-track incidents. That is far harder than people might realise. When you find someone who is genuinely impartial, part of the reason for their impartiality is that they're NOT that engrossed in LFS. Getting an admin to VOLUNTARILY go through the (often) mundane process of examining replays, assessing intent and apportioning blame when, in truth, they don't actually CARE that much about LFS is.. well, it's impossible. Unless you're paying them, of course. And to pay them, you have to have a system that's funded. Bottom line, LFSers don't like paying for things and though there were quite a few offers of cash and even a couple of offers to PAY CTRA staff, there were concerns within UKCT that the cost to CTRA's integrity would have been too much.

...Could you not advertise somehow in your system for income?...Would I be right in saying that having a third-party app own the clients dds folder for track-side adverts is against the T&C's of LFS?

[dawesdust_12]

Well that's the thing, there's been a request for the whole "downloadable DDS" for advertisements for servers, and that'd allow some advertisements for income, but this never panned out due to a lack of developer support (Scawen), and that it can't be implemented (as DDS's are loaded on track load) and enforced by us that this app is running (How are we transmitting data from the client to the server with 100% certainty that it's correct, to avoid someone being kicked in error).

[SamH]

Just to clarify from my point of view, it's entirely up to Scavier whether in-game advertising (IGA) is something they're willing to allow servers control over. LFS is their baby and I support their philosophy 100%. I always have. For me, though, if CTRA was ever to turn a profit (LOL!) to pay its admin, it would have been through corporate IGA. While I did talk to Scawen about it, it was clear that this wasn't a viable revenue path. I never wanted to charge anything for participation and the LFS community has repeatedly made it abundantly clear that it would never have embraced that mechanism either.

Although the CTRA's website and drivers' portal accumulated really, really impressive page impression stats, I never wanted to "pollute" it with ad slots. That's why the only banners on the raceauthority.com site were to LFS team websites. Ultimately, it became clear that the gap between what we wanted to deliver and what we could reasonably achieve became too broad to clear. Such is life :)

[Michalxo]

Pity. LFS isn't half as good without CTRA.

Follow my link! We have endurance races with around equal grid :-8 More people more fun! :-)

[The Very End]

Just to clarify from my point of view, it's entirely up to Scavier whether in-game advertising (IGA) is something they're willing to allow servers control over. LFS is their baby and I support their philosophy 100%. I always have. For me, though, if CTRA was ever to turn a profit (LOL!) to pay its admin, it would have been through corporate IGA. While I did talk to Scawen about it, it was clear that this wasn't a viable revenue path. I never wanted to charge anything for participation and the LFS community has repeatedly made it abundantly clear that it would never have embraced that mechanism either.

Although the CTRA's website and drivers' portal accumulated really, really impressive page impression stats, I never wanted to "pollute" it with ad slots. That's why the only banners on the raceauthority.com site were to LFS team websites. Ultimately, it became clear that the gap between what we wanted to deliver and what we could reasonably achieve became too broad to clear. Such is life :)

There you nailed it, and said it the right way.
Even for a spectators view on this, we/I could see that there were some huge amount of work behind it. If it had been your fulltime job it would be capable, but you all has a life outside LFS, and therfor it just isn't possible to stay around hours for hours each day to check site, reports, ban people, fix stuff and everything else needed of you.

Shame yes, but not unpexpected - it was a blast as long as it lasted :)

[dawesdust_12]

It's OK TVE, we can start a spinoff called ARTC.... :p

We have the technology, we can rebuild it! :p

[The Very End]

What is ARTC? Or what would it be shortened for? ;D

What about UART?

Unconscious anonymous retarded trash?

That would be my server at least :D

[dawesdust_12]

**** that, lets call it ATRAC. Association of Track Racing Authority Committee.

:p

[BOSCHO]

с dint read all the topic but [GTR]MotorSport has 30+ racers every day

[Becky Rose]

You dont 'need' DDS downloads to put a sponsor into the game on a per-server basis, you can deliver a sponsor via text with insim. Right from the beginning X-System had sponsor support, visible in the bottom left when you where in spectate mode, and it wouldnt take much to have added one for a few seconds whilst waiting for the results at the end of the race.

Whilst a text based advert isnt perfect, it would have been a start, and very viable to do.

However whilst advertising and co-branding is a partial solution, I dont think it would ever be viable to go far enough for a project like CTRA. Whilst CTRA could justify and prove tens of thousands of people would see an advert over the course of a year, and it's integrity at the time could provenance it as a good co-branding partner, the fact is far too many games are played each day and the marketplace for selling advertisements in games is over saturated with opportunities, short of actual customers, and there is no evidence to suggest it would increase sales for most types of goods.

Advertising in the CTRA model would have needed to be viewed more as a cream on the cake concept, the fact is the concept of the system itself wasn't born to be a financial and revenue generation project, it was born out of love, and love doesnt give you money it drains it away as anyone who's ever got near it will testify.

If you want to make money out of LFS you would need to present it to people outside of the LFS community and into the masses. There are a couple of ways to do this, either by a sim race centre - in which case LFS' lack of real cars & tracks works against it (ie: this isnt LFS' strength), a broadcast where the teams are sold to sponsors (aka Automolisimo Virtual who sucessfully do this in Mexico), or some other mass market presentation.

You'll never make money from within the LFS customer base itself, the customer base just isnt primed for it.

[SamH]

Whilst a text based advert isnt perfect, it would have been a start, and very viable to do.
The space bottom left became configurable and dynamic, and we used it on the UF-BR server to acknowledge the UF Baby R by Concept Racing. For me, though, the billboards were the most "sellable". Anything else felt no more classy than a popup window - always an option, never very appealing.
Advertising in the CTRA model would have needed to be viewed more as a cream on the cake concept, the fact is the concept of the system itself wasn't born to be a financial and revenue generation project, it was born out of love, and love doesnt give you money it drains it away as anyone who's ever got near it will testify.
QFT! :)

The only time we properly examined the possibility of raising income within the CTRA was when it became clear we needed to address the aforementioned problem with sourcing part-time, paid admins.

[Becky Rose]

The space bottom left became configurable and dynamic, and we used it on the UF-BR server to acknowledge the UF Baby R by Concept Racing. For me, though, the billboards were the most "sellable". Anything else felt no more classy than a popup window - always an option, never very appealing.
Ahh that's not the angle I was alluding too, I was thinking more of a co-branding approach, that would be very saleable.

I don't honestly feel that any public server or race series advertiser would benefit from billboards, with the very possibly exception of a broadcast series >IF< it was attracting a 5 figure audience, and even then it would be a hard sell (far easier to sell the teams).

One of the most common misconceptions about motorsport is that sponsorship is all about the name slapped on the car, but until you get to the top heights of motor racing with major TV coverage this isn't actually worth anything in it's own right.

In racing you make money with other opportunities, like providing a race car for a stand at a trade show (and putting the company name on it) - so in CTRA's case it would provide a sim racing rig. Doing corporate hospitality days (in CTRA's case perhaps at a race centre), doing a track day with a sponsor and teaching them some racecraft tricks, and treating them to a few lary laps. Or selling them a framed signed print for their office wall. It's these things that tend to result in the name ending up on the car, rather than the space on the car being worth anything.

It's for the same reason I don't see there being much value for the server operators trackside billboards.

If anyone is looking to get a project sponsored then you need to work with your advertisers to provide them services - but very rarely will these services relate directly to the actual thing they are sponsoring. Like I say, the space on a race car isn't worth anything until the very top of motor sport, yet lots of drivers out there carry sponsorship - but away from the race track they're doing other promotional work to earn that sponsorship. You earn your money in the time between races, not whilst actually racing.

As a host for racing you need to look to do the same.

[w126]

You've identified a core problem with ALL admined servers, and one that the CTRA struggled to address. Our admin team, at the start, was perfect. All admins were brilliantly impartial, meticulous with their attention to detail, and brilliant marshals. But outside of LFS there is life and you can't hit pause on that while you're processing reports. We needed admin turnover, and that was impossible to achieve.Has anyone thought about building a system for processing reports similar in concept to mass moderation used on Slashdot? Every driver would need to have "fuel points" to be able to race and they would earn them by reviewing racing incidents. Every incident would be assessed by several people selected randomly and the result decided by majority. Assessments different from majority would be considered wrong and not give "fuel points" or even cause penalty. People reviewing incidents would be forced to learn the rules of clean racing from the very beginning. There could be a level of meta-moderation performed by admins (but with little intensity of work required) to resolve controversial cases and to make sure that the assessments are done in accordance with the regulations and not only based on common sense. Possibly a large throughput of report processing could be achieved this way and racers could even be encouraged to report even little incidents by using a simple command usable during a race (which could automatically prepare replay fragment of a certain time lengh before the moment this command was used). Maybe such solution would allow achieving very clean racing environment.

[Becky Rose]

Some of your ideas are very good w126. There are numerous ways to open up moderation to the user base and the method you describe is about the best i've heard, although i'm unconvinced about automatic report generation mid-race, that would create an insurmountable pile of reports. There has to be legwork involved in raising a report, otherwise the system falls over.

In short, the more work is involved in raising a report the less reports the system gets - meaning only the most serious reports are filed. At times the CTRA added hurdles to the reporting process - such as forcing users to goto the web page before final submission - rather than doing the submission from within the game itself. These steps, although might seem odd and usual to the player, ensure that more of the reports finding their way to the admins are incidents worthy of being reporting, and not somebody filing a report in the heat of the moment.

Indeed, I can recall more than one instance of a driver filing off a report and finding themselves penalised for outrageous driving - they filed the report in the heat of the moment, without having looked at what happened objectively. Make it too easy and the system fails.

I do like your suggestion to mass moderation however, i've heard several similar suggestions before, but never any detailed suggestions like yours which I felt could be turned into a workable system (I would make a few subtle changes, but you're on the right lines).

One problem still stand out however, and that is sometimes there are common misconceptions. I remember when the CTRA's predecessor started it was considered fairly standard practice in LFS pickup racing to just drive straight back onto the circuit after an incident and nobody complained. This predated the advanced reporting systems and such like, we launched a "90 day ban" campaign on a first offence policy and the effect changed LFS pickup racing culture.

If you allow mass moderation, initiatives such as this would become imposible and we'd end up with a system that enforced rules according to the gamer mentality, and it would be hard to take initiatives to change or clean up trends in behaviour.

[w126]

although i'm unconvinced about automatic report generation mid-race, that would create an insurmountable pile of reports. There has to be legwork involved in raising a report, otherwise the system falls over.Automatic report generation could be optional. Of course, such system would have to be experimentally verified and its parameters fine-tuned. I will not try to guess how large percentage of time spent reviewing reports (as opposed to racing) would be acceptable to users, and it's all interrelated.

If you allow mass moderation, initiatives such as this would become imposible and we'd end up with a system that enforced rules according to the gamer mentality, and it would be hard to take initiatives to change or clean up trends in behaviour.I thought meta-moderation would prevent that. Meta-moderator (trusted admin) could basically change the result of incident assessment and all the people that assessed the same incident differently would have their "fuel points" taken away (possibly leading to "fuel points" deficit if they managed to use them for racing already). In this way a single action by the admin would enforce moderation behaviour of several users. If admins have less time, they may meta-moderate smaller sample of all the incidents but make the penalty (negative "fuel points") for wrong assessment bigger to still keep users on their toes while mass-moderating.

[5haz]

Automatic reports would just result in there being even more reports to read, maybe what you want is an automatic system that deals with the reports consistantly and fairly, essentially an automatic moderator, which can be overiden obviously. Although that would likely take far too much time and effort.

[Becky Rose]

Automatic decision of the majority of offences is impossible, take swearing as an example. People from the British town of S****horpe are punished on forums the world over...

Even if a semi-reliable decision could be developed you would simply encourage drivers to learn how to exploit it and create new types of accident/offence.

Like when the British government, back many centuries ago, tried to ban swearing. The result was that people used new words with the same intent as the old swear words - you simply move the problem. Put another way, computers suck at being judges: I remember once putting my foot down to avoid a badly driven lorry, and I passed a GATSO camera. So in doing what, on any reasonable human assessment would view as the safest thing to do, the computer would do me for speeding aka dangerous driving (Luckily it had no film in).

Computers cannot be judges, they simply execute what we tell them to do. It takes human minds to make rational decisions.

Automatic detection of some types of incident may be possible, but i'd rather stick to humans reporting incidents as drivers who make good their errors, or who make a one off mistake in an otherwise faultless evening of racing, dont deserve the heavy hand of moderation.

[SamH]

The best alternative to the CTRA's reporting system that I've seen was Gentlefoot's league's incident peer review system. Though it worked well on a league level, it would take some really smart algorithm development in order to ensure that peer reviews in a public server system were fair. There's nothing (and I do mean nothing) worse than LFS's "press 1 to.." system, if you're seeking to deploy a fair peer assessment mechanism. Anything that introduces that potential, in any measure, is never going to achieve its objective of fair moderation.

Automatic - as in InSim-based - incident moderation simply doesn't work. I find nothing more odious than iRacing's incident system, and anything that punishes both the wrecker and the wreckee is worse than no moderation at all. As far as I can tell, there's simply not enough information in the InSim packet data to give better than a poorly educated guess. It's not an option, unless you provide for a manually handled appeals procedure and if you're going to go for one of those, you might as well go for a manual reporting system. At least with manual moderation you maintain the concept of "due process", innocent until proven guilty etc. - fundamental to anything purporting to be judicial.

[PioneerLv]

Oh, thanks for this chance to take the picture of my stats! Finally! :D

It could be great to race again in CTRA.

[obsolum]

Oh, thanks for this chance to take the picture of my stats! Finally! :D
Those stats are incorrect. SamH has changed the stats to prevent people from copying them to incorporate them in their own ranking system.

[peterules]

This topic reminds me of my first girlfriend. She's gone but you don't wanna let go... :P

SO GET OVER IT PEOPLE!

CTRA HAS GONE! (She don't want you anymore) :razz:

[SamH]

Oh sorry, peterules. I didn't realise the topic was forbidden. When did that happen, and exactly why? For reference material, read the rest of this thread.

[peterules]

I didn't say it was forbidden. but you are the only one able to finger with the site ATM.

We can look but we can't touch. :Looking_a

Edit: Reason why i said that was from reading posts about not having places to race... There are probably more than ever now!

[dawesdust_12]

Says who?! :p Former admins can still get to their admin panel, so Sam isn't the only one with access.

[peterules]

lol multiple fingers eh? - I'll shut up now :D

[dawesdust_12]

We prefer a full fisted approach, because nothing says "F... You" like a full fisted attack.

:p

[SamH]

<-- still wondering (and a little concerned about) what constitutes a good website fingering! :shy: ;)

[dawesdust_12]

Start -> run -> cmd -> finger ukct.net

:p

[peterules]

Imaginations run wild :D

[PioneerLv]

Those stats are incorrect. SamH has changed the stats to prevent people from copying them to incorporate them in their own ranking system.

Thats sad, I was happy.

[SamH]

Stats are accurate at the moment.. but could slip again later this evening ;)

[Kamrock]

Automatic - as in InSim-based - incident moderation simply doesn't work. I find nothing more odious than iRacing's incident system, and anything that punishes both the wrecker and the wreckee is worse than no moderation at all. As far as I can tell, there's simply not enough information in the InSim packet data to give better than a poorly educated guess. It's not an option, unless you provide for a manually handled appeals procedure and if you're going to go for one of those, you might as well go for a manual reporting system. At least with manual moderation you maintain the concept of "due process", innocent until proven guilty etc. - fundamental to anything purporting to be judicial.


The only way I can see this happening is by using a Semi-intelligent approach that "learns" what is good driving and what it is bad driving without being given any rules straight off... Similar to how a few email filters work at the moment... however, anyone with the money to invest in such a solution should put it to a better use...

Having seen the approach used in filtering emails it's entirely possible to take reports and score them on selected sections (I have been working this out in the last few hours) but the amount of power they throw at just decyphering a bit of text to work out whether it's good or bad is immense... to do that on a 3d representation of several cars as they collide, it would take one hell of a bit of code and would need to be worked out on a frame by frame basis... to do this (what I currently have in my mind) in real time would take an awful lot of kit...

That's the only way I can see this sort of system working... and I don't see it running on anything any of the LFS community can afford to run, and in my mind anything "simpler" would produce too many false-positives (People being banned when it wasn't their fault) to be practical... in fact the system in my minds eye would still be far from perfect

[NigelY]

No automatic system can work perfectly, but does anyone think a system that monitors certain parameters that a driver must stay within could work? If you could obtain percentages for the following could they be used as a pre-filter on the way to moderated higher tier servers.


% races started to finished
% yellow flags
% time spent on racing line (can InSim use the green line)
% lap time
% time spent pressing "restart" after race is under way (after spectating)
% time spent chatting during race (after spectating)
% time spent off tarmac


Would like to know what iracers think of their safety rating system.


Nigel (thinking out loud)(also sick of "restart!").

[Becky Rose]

It's possible to get reasonably accurate accident detection using insim with a few simple rules, detection of who was inside/outside isn't hard, we know the speed, we can devise rules that cover most situations and make an assessment of who's fault it is with 'reasonable' reliability - but it would be a long way from foolproof. You could tie this in with general statistics like yellow flag / lap ratio, race completed ratio, to get a rough indication of a drivers messyness - but you cannot develop a foolproof system and certainly it would be wrong to have a system that has any kind of "power" associated with it's judgement.

When CTRA introduced the yellow flag ratio it was suprisingly revealing how consistent the percentages did relate to how clean drivers where. I didn't like it myself because I kept having to pull over to admin or answer questions and effecting my ratio ! So as a general assessment it can be very useful, but in judging specific incidents it just isnt reliable enough.

[Kamrock]

% races started to finished
% yellow flags

It's possible to track these, yes, the CTRA system did that, and yes it would be possible to consider this when making decisions.

% time spent on racing line (can InSim use the green line)

Well... this would be harder to do, but more importantly I think this would be pointless... watch a race replay with the green line on and see how many "real" racers follow this line... I agree that the line is great for people starting out, but different driving styles use different lines (especially RallyCross).

EDIT: Also how would the system know about overtaking zones or straights where some people favour the left or right side of the road...

% lap time

This one is again possible there are several examples of this already... things to keep in mind are in/out laps from the pits, midrace joins yellow flags etc...

% time spent pressing "restart" after race is under way (after spectating)
% time spent chatting during race (after spectating)
% time spent off tarmac


These later three I wouldn't actually recommend trying to enforce/monitor as it could produce a HUGE amount of reporting that will need to be dealt with at sometime, and particularly with the chatting could end up producing false-positives over normal racing banter.

I would first, before trying to implement weighting systems such as above, try and define what a 'wrecker' acts like... i.e. what do you notice when they come on track... just penalising someone for missing the racing line is at risk of taking out people with unusual car setups that sacrifice on corner entry for exit speed or vice-versa... and as the car would do that for every corner he's at risk of showing up as a consistantly bad driver...

Once you can actively define the behaviour of a 'bad driver' then you can start to think about implementing the core auto-system... but like I say, the differences can be so subtle that I wouldn't want to make the call... as SamH said you don't want to punish people because someone drove into them... or even if it was just a racing incident (not really the fault of either party and certainly not malicious)

[SamH]

You can't use things like races finished or yellow flag ratio to determine whether someone is in error in an incident. You could calculate your idea of a rough % probability of a % likelihood, but the mere suggestion that you could use any kind of mathematical or statistical computation in the quest to determine blame in an incident is appalling. Take a step back and look at the monster you'd be creating. Remember the (paraphrased) line in Jurassic Park, "you were so busy finding out what you COULD do, you forgot to stop and ask whether you SHOULD do."

[Kamrock]

Again, SamH has put exactly what I was trying to say without the waffle...

Cheers:thumb:

[Arsenic_Fox]

What's all this idiot rant "LFS is not half as good as when CTRA was up" etc etc, there are LOTS of good servers but you lazy whining kids just whines without backing up your statement.
Shut up allready, leave the forum, go racing and then open your mouths.

Canot belive this forum is filled with so many whiners, that whines on absolutely everything jeez! LR, FM, GTR server is just some of them, and there are tons of other servers to play on. The only reason why you liked CTRA was because it had active admins and because your ego-meter did rise when you got more points.

LR - absolutely the same thing. GTR (not sure one the first part of the name) offers fast paced racing in the gtr cars. FM servers handles the formula racing, and they all doing it pretty damn well.

So for love of god and this forum, stop whining about CTRA's death when you don't even know what other servers LFS have to offer.



Listen, I've tried almost every public server and, yes, I've seen what they have to offer. A whole hell of a lot of nothing. Just like the servers nowadays on Nascar Racing 2003 season... Just like the servers on rFactor.


CTRA was great because it was almost always full, the layouts wernt half bad, and the rules wernt terrible either. The most "exciting" servers i've been on are half-full demo servers. =/

I'm sorry that a different type of people than you exist on this forum. CTRA was like that pub in town that you used to go hang out with with your friends and stuff. It closes down and now you have to find a new place. Eventually you find another place to hang out, but it just doesn't feel the same.



That along with the fact with all the recent major changes in my life... for once PERSONALLY I'd like something that was stable and would stay the same. I mean, I didn't even find out CTRA was gone until after I moved 800 miles away from my friends and imediate family.

I have a reason to bitch. All of my favorite servers for all my favorite games are going away, my girlfriend is 800 miles west, my closest friends 800 miles east. I'm in the middle of ****ing no where and I, personally, don't enjoy any of the servers I'm on. Sadly, Maybe I just don't enjoy the game anymore... :(

[NigelY]

Thanks for the replies. I feel a bit out of my depth on the subject but it's nice to get a more informed opinion. An arbitrary auto system is the last thing required when more skilled people are racing, but I was thinking more towards entry level servers.

I understand why CTRA is no more (big shame) so I'm hoping you don't mind some more hypothetical questions.

Do you think unskilled drivers would enter a server with onerous conditions as I set out earlier in order to progress (fully knowing what their letting themselves in for)? Understanding that some things mentioned are not desirable/doable.

Could it improve driving standards? Becky mentioned some correlation between yellow flags and driving standards.

Nigel.

[Becky Rose]

Do you think unskilled drivers would enter a server with onerous conditions as I set out earlier in order to progress (fully knowing what their letting themselves in for)? Understanding that some things mentioned are not desirable/doable.

Could it improve driving standards? Becky mentioned some correlation between yellow flags and driving standards.

Nigel.
but I also gave an example of where yellow flag ratios didn't work.

The question has never been about the deliberate wreckers and very obvious bad drivers, it's about the less skilled versus the skilled, it would be making judgements on people who even contribute to this forum.

Obvious wrecking is pretty easy to spot, and was never much of a problem on the CTRA. It's that other type of wrecker, the one where somebody is annoyed with another driver and calls them wrecker, that is the problem.

See it's not about fault of every accident, report handling is 80% customer service, 15% filtering drivers out before they get to the higher servers, and 5% wrist slapping on people who should know better.

If there one thing I've learned from my bank, customer services via computer decision isn't the way to go, even if you employ cheap Indian labour to give a human touch to read the decision out.

Most accidents go unreported and undealt with and that's fine, it was never about dealing with the accidents. It's about keeping people happy and providing a place for experienced and skilled racers to do pickup racing without the "gamers".

I think it is possible to do the latter in an automated way, but the customer service aspect you simply can't do by computer, and popular servers with poor customer service wouldn't last 5 minutes on these forums.

[Kamrock]

If there one thing I've learned from my bank, customer services via computer decision isn't the way to go, even if you employ cheap Indian labour to give a human touch to read the decision out.


Bah, we don't mention the I word (it's where my job went).

[SamH]

Nige, I agree with what Becky posted. To address your other question, I think that if you can devise a structured environment and system of reward - a badge of honour, so to speak - then I think that as long as your rules make sense, there's no reason it can't succeed.

When Becky's (2nd gen?) STCC system introduced the UF1000 server, I was gobsmacked that it took off. I remember thinking that it wouldn't matter what Becky ate, 24 carrat nuggets would always fall out of her arse. I was stuck on the fact that the car was a hunk o' junk UF1000, and at the time I couldn't see past that to see that the car didn't matter as much as the licence points, and the racers' ability to declare themselves xyz licensed STCC drivers. Becky had pegged the mentality of the LFS racer, and filled a gap with a much-needed racing structure and rewards system. Bronze through Platinum (Titanium came later).

The success of the CTRA was a combination of many things, working in tandem. Though it's of course subjective, I think these are the main facets that made it the success it was:
- Racing structure
- Strict but fair rules, conventions and expectations
- Automated race restarts and timed track changes
- An excellent InSim interface
- Replay record of every mile driven
- Comprehensive system of raising reports in the server
- Permanent driver licence history
- Driver's portal, personal licence page and licence userbars
- National, international and team statistics for drivers
- Complete administrative transparency
- Meticulous attention to detail in admin decisions.

Though it was not, of course, across the board I do think that these factors all combined to support the broad belief within the LFS community that, if you had a higher (e.g. Silver) CTRA licence then you were a fair, honourable and accomplished driver. For a lot of people, a CTRA licence was worth showing off.

I'm not suggesting that you'd have to pin a tale on ALL of the above donkeys, but I do think you would have to find something to inspire drivers to rise to a challenge. Something that has a return.

The success of the Cruise servers is in no small part because they can buy virtual cars with their track time.. cars that they could go to any number of other servers and jump in and drive. But they don't, because they want to work for those cars, and they want their contemporaries see the things they've achieved. It matters less than you'd think, that it's a (sorry Krammeh! :shy:) pretty inane pastime. All online "games" are inane in comparison with their real-world counterparts.

The structured environment and the reward are the key. Get those established and you can create a win.

[Becky Rose]

Bah, we don't mention the I word (it's where my job went).
Mine too, but I just accepted a new one - keep trying, you'll get there :)

When Becky's (2nd gen?) STCC system introduced the UF1000 server, I was gobsmacked that it took off.
Sometimes you need to tell LFS'rs what is best for them. If they had it their way every server would be set to LX8's and nobody would be racing them! UF1's give great racing.

I remember thinking that it wouldn't matter what Becky ate, 24 carrat nuggets would always fall out of her arse.
I have nothing to add to this, I just wanted to quote it because i'm a narcassist.

The structured environment and the reward are the key. Get those established and you can create a win.
I totally agree. I make no secret that at the time I drew on MMO's for inspiration of the gameplay maths and mechanics of the system. I don't think you could replace CTRA now though and be as sucessful, the userbase would be up for something new, but not more of the same. If I had the time and money I have some ideas, but I dont - and i'm not selling my soul for a passionate project again unless I need to ressurect my career with a new project, and touch wood I don't have to do that for a few more years yet :).

[NigelY]

"Most accidents go unreported and undealt with and that's fine, it was never about dealing with the accidents. It's about keeping people happy and providing a place for experienced and skilled racers to do pickup racing without the "gamers".

Succinctly written. This is what I'm missing in LFS since the demise of the CTRA system. I don't think in all the time spent racing FOX and FO8 servers there was ever a need to raise a report. Clean and considerate racing was the norm. This is why I wondered whether an automated system coupled to higher rank servers could cut down admin time. I glance over at iracing and wonder if that's where I should be, but like other people I'm not willing to rent a game and the LFS ethos still attracts. Outside of leagues is the problem with LFS the fact that people love the physics but don't really want a sim? Another thing I did notice on CTRA servers was that if admin turned up, suddenly racing became a lot cleaner (if you could bottle up that fear and automate it your halfway there:)).

Nigel.

[NigelY]

Sam, Becky And Kamrock.

Quick word just to say thanks for the detailed and insightful posts. I would have replied earlier but got sidetracked by Becky's "Nick Griffin" debate and the even more important "red string/blue string" topic (jaw dropping).

Just a leaving thought to Sam. I do wonder if inane is the wrong (too harsh a) word to describe computer gaming. Many sports, hobbies, and pastimes could be considered inane, but we leave people alone with what they enjoy. (One exception being darts on TV).



One final quick point. From an early age we start collating data and devising competitions and games. Our lad started school not long ago and from the off they're in a house team and collecting points or "stars". I think this stays with us throughout our lives, it's in our psyche, and can be (is) a more powerful force than boredom pushing the other way. From grassroots to professional sport and games, collecting points/stats is not seen as peculiar.There's no reason it should be in racing games either. Imagine TMS without the stats. I really think LFS is missing a trick in this department. I,m sorry if this last paragraph comes across as bo***cks, I'll get me coat and disappear now, thanks, Nigel.

[SamH]

Just a leaving thought to Sam. I do wonder if inane is the wrong (too harsh a) word to describe computer gaming. Many sports, hobbies, and pastimes could be considered inane..

Perhaps "inane" was too harsh. "Frivolous" would be better. I did use the word "inane" specifically in comparison with real-world counterparts. Compared with driving/racing (and crashing), LFS is a smidge "inane", and certainly "frivolous" - ask Massa. And the other game that I play a lot of at the moment, while Battlefield2 certainly is hilarious fun for me, it's totally asinine compared with ACTUALLY swapping bullets in Afghanistan or Iraq.. as any modern-day soldier will attest. :)

[NigelY]

Crossed lines somewhere, my fault. Bullets/Afghanistan/Iraq////hobbies/sports/pastimes doesn't sit easily.:)
Out of context might sum it up.

[Becky Rose]

We're fixing the world 1 forum post at a time.

[NigelY]

As long as Red string/Blue string stays at the top of the agenda, that's OK.

[Becky Rose]

I never understood the question that thread posed, it was like half the facts where missing...

If the Earth had a flat surface ... it doesnt
...was a perfect sphere ... it isnt

So do we get rid of gravity too, what other factors remain or are removed?

Then the diagram was so badly drawn I didnt understand what it was demonstrating.

I concluded the reasoning that answers where so evenly split was because the question wasnt clear, so i've stuck well clear.

Then of course there is the question of which mathematical model of string theory is being used (there are several, I favour a 16 dimensional model). Then we need to ask in which dimensions is the string circumnavigating the Earth, all of them or just 2 (as shown in the diagram)? If all of them, what definition do we have for the higher - undefined - dimensions?

Ultimately I am sure I would have to conclude that the string has no colour, or is polychromatic, as neither red nor blue are likely to exist in all dimensional states within an observable spectrum. Possibly even bringing us to the ultmate question of quantum mechanics: What string?

[NigelY]

But it was great watching people dive in without the facts you have so diligently explained.

[Kamrock]

Ultimately I am sure I would have to conclude that the string has no colour, or is polychromatic, as neither red nor blue are likely to exist in all dimensional states within an observable spectrum. Possibly even bringing us to the ultmate question of quantum mechanics: What string?

How philosophical...


Mine too, but I just accepted a new one - keep trying, you'll get there :)


Meh... I'm skipping the country... Heading to Dublin to settle and maybe one day get married/have kids/turn them into racing fanatics...

Once I get there I have to say, I would love to say I'll be making a serious attempt at creating a replacement... but I doubt between the Swinger parties and building my Millions that I'll have the time... <--- Wishful thinking.

[Becky Rose]

How philosophical...
My genius is lost around here :/
Meh... I'm skipping the country... Heading to Dublin to settle and maybe one day get married/have kids/turn them into racing fanatics...
Trying to find yourself in a place eh?

[Kamrock]

Trying to find yourself in a place eh?

Nah, not quite.. the new Girlfriend is Irish, and offers more security, and a sexy accent too...

Being surrounded by people who constantly speak with Received Pronunciation can rather boring at times... and I have also found the perfect mix of physicist, gamer and explorer to match my own personality, hehe, and while she's not actually a racer, she does seem to adore me, which I have to say is a new experience for this spotty, speccy geek...

Lol, this has gone a little OT for sure...

[theirishnoob]

Pity. LFS isn't half as good without CTRA.

lfs was good with it ? :|

[dawesdust_12]

lfs was good with it ? :|

So, if you hate LFS so much, can you just **** off so we're not annoyed by how moronic you are.

Thanks.

:)

[Senninha25]

uh...sorry for bumping this thread, but before the mods close it...

Does someone have replays from the UF-BR server from the 30th November 2008?

[dawesdust_12]

Do you have more specifics? I'm looking at all of them right now.

[Senninha25]

yes. the replay I'm looking for was a UF-BR race at KY2. Scrap for 2nd until the final lap, with the driver in front hitting the wall after the race is over.