Season 2010: Rules

[dekojester]

Linked below are the rules for the 2010 Season of Grand Touring Amateur League. There are 21 pages, mostly dealing with possible events that we hope would never happen.

Please take a look over it, point out any errors et cetera. For ease, in the next day or two I'll be making a "Cliff's Notes" version with all the regular rules that are always need to know and posting it here for ease of reference as well.

Find the rules HERE (http://newdimensionracing.com/index.php/gtal-menu/rules) (you can also hit previous versions there as well)

[pik_d]

The original rules had qualifying sessions on both the Sunday and Friday before the race (as MoE does it). I'd like to go back to this as my team is composed entirely of Americans and qualifying is now around 2PM on Friday afternoon, instead of 2PM on Sunday and 2PM on Friday.

I know most teams are mostly Europeans so 7PM on Friday isn't so bad, but for is it is. :(

Also I think that two 30 minute sessions each day (same as MoE) with half of the cars taking part in each session would work better with this switch.

[kiste]

Can i download any decalpacks for gtal or templates?

[J@tko]

Can i download any decalpacks for gtal or templates?
You can, but they're not done yet :D

[J@tko]

The rules in a slightly less "deko-ified" form:



Restrictions: FZR 20%, FXR 23%, XRR 24%+15kg. Don't put 'em on - GTFO the rest of the session.
Entry procedure is already dealt with - if you're late with an application you can read the rules on how to apply as a punishment.
Any peeps with MoE or IGTC experience need to have dispensation to compete. E-mail us if you need this done.
Skinz need to be uploaded to the correct thread before the race, with all the correct shizz [number boardz, sun strip, sponsor logos e.t.c] - Don't do it and get a DT.
Names: ## N.Surname
Please confirm your teams attendance before each round before wednesday before the race at midnight. 10-grid penalty if you don't. You get 5 main drivers and up to 3 reserves. If you need to swap some mains and reserves, or add some more drivers, contact an admin.
If after 4h after deadline there are still spots left, waiting list teams will be invited in.
Quali is in 2 pools starting at 1900 + 1955 UTC on Fridays before the race. Cars 00-14 are in Pool 1. Everyone else is in Pool 2. If it ain't your pool qualifying atm, then GTFO server. Deko will shout in here when you need to join. The grid is the combined results of the 2 sessions.
You can have 2 peeps from your team on server during Q. However, only one on track at a time. You can swap via driver change or Shift-P/S.
Only shift-p or s from in the pit lane. Anywhere else will end your session.
Whoever drives your team's fastest lap must drive at least 1 lap [excluding SC starts/inlaps/outlaps]. If, for some reason, that person cannot do that [they die or something], then please tell us and give the reason why.
Look at teh schedule for start times. Get on server 10 mins before "race start" time.
Don't chat whilst d is doing the grid. If you do, you will get a) yelled at and b) your fastest lap from q for the next race taken away.
Race Start: Rolling Start under SC. Single file until last sector, then stop weaving and form up in double file. Pole-sitter can choose side - left or right. (We'd rather not middle. It makes it messy)
If d thinks you've done a crap job of forming up, he'll make you do it again. and again. and again. until you get it right. The SC will keep going round until you do. [BTW there's an error there d - "not be to the Race Director’s Discretion." makes no sense]
SC procedure [below] also applies at the start.
You can use a max of 6 drivers during Q+Race.
You can't drive more than 75% of the race. If you've done between 73-77% - we'll take a look. Penalty for this is losing all the laps you've done over 75%
Driver swap as often as you like, whenever you like. But GTFO server within a lap of handing over. Or we'll make you GTFO. And please, don't come on server until within a lap of getting "in" the car.
When you come in server, please don't have your name as "TVE IS A BASTARD" from the DD Server the night before. Format it correctly BEFORE you get in server or get a penalty.
If you seriously f**k up your car and you can't move, just wait where you are [not like you can do anything else!] and wait for d to get the SC out or tell you to spec or whatever.
If your car is a bit f**ked up, but you can still drive, GTFO the racing line and drive carefully back to the pits. If you're struggling, d will call the SC and Timo in the Rescue Car will come and try to help you [but probably make it worse and wreck you] get back to pits.
If you want to make a complaint againt some n00b for twatting you up the arse/wrecking you, make a complaint in the protest thread, in the format given three. Only protest incidents you were involved in. Don't make protests after 36h post-race.
Under Green Flag, pits are open. Go in as much or little as you like. Although, research has shown that number of pitstops is proportional to finishing position. So don't go in there too much.
Don't cut the blend line. [unless d tells you that you can] Use any pit stall you like, as long as its the last one that is available.
Under SC, pits are open unless the field is near pit exit. Then it isn't open.
Don't mow down all the poor pit crews when you're going to your pits. You are only permitted to mow down the pit crew before and the pit crew after your pit stop box.
When SC is deployed [you can't miss it. It's a large yellow message saying "SC DEPLOYED". And some moron in a FZ5 comes and interrupts the race], slow down and don't overtake. Go slow behind SC. And don't twat people up the arse cos you were going too quickly.
If someone "does a Veccioni/Hamilton" and wrecks it on the last lap causing an SC, race to the line, but watch out for poor Tim/Lewis and don't crash into him.
On its inlap, the SC will turn its lights off. Leader holds pace until the "Restart Line" [basically some orange cones :P] from which he can start to accelerate. "Doing a Jackson" and overtaking before the S/F line is permitted, as long as green flag is out.
BTW, don't floor it at restart point on the initial start. Wait for the Green.
If the SC is needed again [e.g Some moron does a Jackson and wrecks someone on the restart :hide:] then it'll come straight back out and we try again next time around.
"8. The driver of the Safety Car shall be proficient in driving the vehicle that is chosen to be the Safety Car." LOOOL! TOMMY? PROFICIENT!?
We can give out penalties if you've done something wrong. Or we can be like the FIA, and give out penalties even if you havn't.
Do any penalties withing 10 mins or face going around for nothing. We'll take your laps away from you. Mwahahahaha.
If the server fails, or some moron decides to wreck 80%+ of the field, d will pull the red flag. Park yourself wherever d tells you to. Unless the server crashed, in which case it would be quite hard...
FFS don't Spec/Pit unless d tells you to. We like SCs. They make it more interesting. And give us more chance to laugh at someone for crashing the SC.
You get points depending on where you finish. Look in the rules as I cba to copy it here. You get extra points for pole and attending all the races.
Incase franky's p0rn torrents cause the main server to crash, we'll designate a secondary server for us to go to. We'll just kick all the cruisers off it if we need to.
Pass will be sent to all managers and vice-managers before the race. Don't have it? shout at your manager. And it won't change unless some n00b gives it to a member of [CD] and they come on server cheering for their team. Then we'll change it and give it to you.
We need you to be on IRC. I can't remember what the thingy is, something like #ndr@gamesurge.com
If you need us more urgently, or just want to hear Timo's sexy voice, come on our vent server. Again, can't remember off-hand, but I'm sure it's posted somewhere.
Don't block messages. Deko gets stressy because he thinks you're ignoring him.
Don't chat when chat is closed. You'd be AMAZED at how many people can't read "CHAT CLOSED".

So there's ma light-hearted little summary of the rules. Please do read the proper version at least once [as I've missed out quite alot of stuff], then if you need a refresher, you can look at this to remind you. I've taken the liberty of leaving out the stuff that says what a DT penalty is and stuff. :)

[Wilko868]

My word..........
You must have been bored....

[J@tko]

Oh and please DO NOT ASK US ABOUT THE BROADCASTING SITUATION. ATM we have no idea about what will and won't be broadcasted, nor to what extent. Consider it as a nice surprise.:tilt:

[Tomhah]

:D Hilarious! :D

[JayEyeBee]

the original rules had qualifying sessions on both the sunday and friday before the race (as moe does it). I'd like to go back to this as my team is composed entirely of americans and qualifying is now around 2pm on friday afternoon, instead of 2pm on sunday and 2pm on friday.

I know most teams are mostly europeans so 7pm on friday isn't so bad, but for is it is. :(

also i think that two 30 minute sessions each day (same as moe) with half of the cars taking part in each session would work better with this switch.

+1 (except replace Americans with North Americans)

[CSF]

Will the series be broadcast?

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Will the series be broadcast?

Yes, good question:)

[TFalke55]

The rules in a slightly less "deko-ified" form:



Restrictions: FZR 20%, FXR 23%, XRR 24%+15kg. Don't put 'em on - GTFO the rest of the session.
Entry procedure is already dealt with - if you're late with an application you can read the rules on how to apply as a punishment.
Any peeps with MoE or IGTC experience need to have dispensation to compete. E-mail us if you need this done.
Skinz need to be uploaded to the correct thread before the race, with all the correct shizz [number boardz, sun strip, sponsor logos e.t.c] - Don't do it and get a DT.
Names: ## N.Surname
Please confirm your teams attendance before each round before wednesday before the race at midnight. 10-grid penalty if you don't. You get 5 main drivers and up to 3 reserves. If you need to swap some mains and reserves, or add some more drivers, contact an admin.
If after 4h after deadline there are still spots left, waiting list teams will be invited in.
Quali is in 2 pools starting at 1900 + 1955 UTC on Fridays before the race. Cars 00-14 are in Pool 1. Everyone else is in Pool 2. If it ain't your pool qualifying atm, then GTFO server. Deko will shout in here when you need to join. The grid is the combined results of the 2 sessions.
You can have 2 peeps from your team on server during Q. However, only one on track at a time. You can swap via driver change or Shift-P/S.
Only shift-p or s from in the pit lane. Anywhere else will end your session.
Whoever drives your team's fastest lap must drive at least 1 lap [excluding SC starts/inlaps/outlaps]. If, for some reason, that person cannot do that [they die or something], then please tell us and give the reason why.
Look at teh schedule for start times. Get on server 10 mins before "race start" time.
Don't chat whilst d is doing the grid. If you do, you will get a) yelled at and b) your fastest lap from q for the next race taken away.
Race Start: Rolling Start under SC. Single file until last sector, then stop weaving and form up in double file. Pole-sitter can choose side - left or right. (We'd rather not middle. It makes it messy)
If d thinks you've done a crap job of forming up, he'll make you do it again. and again. and again. until you get it right. The SC will keep going round until you do. [BTW there's an error there d - "not be to the Race Director’s Discretion." makes no sense]
SC procedure [below] also applies at the start.
You can use a max of 6 drivers during Q+Race.
You can't drive more than 75% of the race. If you've done between 73-77% - we'll take a look. Penalty for this is losing all the laps you've done over 75%
Driver swap as often as you like, whenever you like. But GTFO server within a lap of handing over. Or we'll make you GTFO. And please, don't come on server until within a lap of getting "in" the car.
When you come in server, please don't have your name as "TVE IS A BASTARD" from the DD Server the night before. Format it correctly BEFORE you get in server or get a penalty.
If you seriously f**k up your car and you can't move, just wait where you are [not like you can do anything else!] and wait for d to get the SC out or tell you to spec or whatever.
If your car is a bit f**ked up, but you can still drive, GTFO the racing line and drive carefully back to the pits. If you're struggling, d will call the SC and Timo in the Rescue Car will come and try to help you [but probably make it worse and wreck you] get back to pits.
If you want to make a complaint againt some n00b for twatting you up the arse/wrecking you, make a complaint in the protest thread, in the format given three. Only protest incidents you were involved in. Don't make protests after 36h post-race.
Under Green Flag, pits are open. Go in as much or little as you like. Although, research has shown that number of pitstops is proportional to finishing position. So don't go in there too much.
Don't cut the blend line. [unless d tells you that you can] Use any pit stall you like, as long as its the last one that is available.
Under SC, pits are open unless the field is near pit exit. Then it isn't open.
Don't mow down all the poor pit crews when you're going to your pits. You are only permitted to mow down the pit crew before and the pit crew after your pit stop box.
When SC is deployed [you can't miss it. It's a large yellow message saying "SC DEPLOYED". And some moron in a FZ5 comes and interrupts the race], slow down and don't overtake. Go slow behind SC. And don't twat people up the arse cos you were going too quickly.
If someone "does a Veccioni/Hamilton" and wrecks it on the last lap causing an SC, race to the line, but watch out for poor Tim/Lewis and don't crash into him.
On its inlap, the SC will turn its lights off. Leader holds pace until the "Restart Line" [basically some orange cones :P] from which he can start to accelerate. "Doing a Jackson" and overtaking before the S/F line is permitted, as long as green flag is out.
BTW, don't floor it at restart point on the initial start. Wait for the Green.
If the SC is needed again [e.g Some moron does a Jackson and wrecks someone on the restart :hide:] then it'll come straight back out and we try again next time around.
"8. The driver of the Safety Car shall be proficient in driving the vehicle that is chosen to be the Safety Car." LOOOL! TOMMY? PROFICIENT!?
We can give out penalties if you've done something wrong. Or we can be like the FIA, and give out penalties even if you havn't.
Do any penalties withing 10 mins or face going around for nothing. We'll take your laps away from you. Mwahahahaha.
If the server fails, or some moron decides to wreck 80%+ of the field, d will pull the red flag. Park yourself wherever d tells you to. Unless the server crashed, in which case it would be quite hard...
FFS don't Spec/Pit unless d tells you to. We like SCs. They make it more interesting. And give us more chance to laugh at someone for crashing the SC.
You get points depending on where you finish. Look in the rules as I cba to copy it here. You get extra points for pole and attending all the races.
Incase franky's p0rn torrents cause the main server to crash, we'll designate a secondary server for us to go to. We'll just kick all the cruisers off it if we need to.
Pass will be sent to all managers and vice-managers before the race. Don't have it? shout at your manager. And it won't change unless some n00b gives it to a member of [CD] and they come on server cheering for their team. Then we'll change it and give it to you.
We need you to be on IRC. I can't remember what the thingy is, something like #ndr@gamesurge.com
If you need us more urgently, or just want to hear Timo's sexy voice, come on our vent server. Again, can't remember off-hand, but I'm sure it's posted somewhere.
Don't block messages. Deko gets stressy because he thinks you're ignoring him.
Don't chat when chat is closed. You'd be AMAZED at how many people can't read "CHAT CLOSED".

So there's ma light-hearted little summary of the rules. Please do read the proper version at least once [as I've missed out quite alot of stuff], then if you need a refresher, you can look at this to remind you. I've taken the liberty of leaving out the stuff that says what a DT penalty is and stuff. :)

My word..........
You must have been bored....

How must I be bored when I translate those rules... :x

[dekojester]

Amended version 1.0 to reinstate the Sunday qualifying. Pools system stays in place.

The condensed version will be out soon, and is intended to not be the gospel, but be a quick-reference sheet to help you find what you may need to know in a rush, i.e. during the race. We request that you read the full rules and make sure you know what not to do.

Falke will get on with a German version later in the weekend or next week.

d

[JayEyeBee]

Quick question about racer name format (in game). I don't read anything about the use of colour in the rules, is this intentional?

[J@tko]

Quick question about racer name format (in game). I don't read anything about the use of colour in the rules, is this intentional?
In the Sporting Code it simply says ## N.Surname, nothing about colour. Usually it's either grey [default] or white. I'm sure d will say.

[pik_d]

In the Sporting Code it simply says ## N.Surname, nothing about colour. Usually it's either grey [default] or white. I'm sure d will say.
When I highlight that bit it looks like there's a space between N. and Surname. I know in the LLWS series we have people with a space and some without. I suppose this is something else we need his dekoness to address. :D

[dekojester]

Rules updated !

Go HERE (http://newdimensionracing.com/index.php/gtal-menu/rules) to see.

It's a cool extension that Ellis found that lets us embed PDFs. You can download from there or simply view it.

It's version 1.2 now because a few people had see 1.1, and it'd been a few days since I posted it. But to summarize changes:

Version 1.1 is mostly cosmetic: Table of Contents added. Most if not all Typos fixed. Updated restrictions, and naming regulations. Also amended championship points somewhat. 70 points now available for a win, compared to 66.

Version 1.2 is most, of not all, of what I forgot for 1.1. Amending when and where you can telepit from in qual (from a pitstop only) and adding a trick to the start: The front row must now be on the pitlimiter until the green flag. The rest of the field is expected to hold appoximately pitlane speed until the green. We are doing this to hopefully reduce incidents and make gaps closer. Not requiring 3rd on back to be on limiter to allowe better modulation of gaps.

d

[fadeaway]

it require registration to download :grumpy:

[tmehlinger]

it require registration to download :grumpy:

You sure about that? I'm viewing it in the browser plugin.

By the way, serious high :thumb: on the in-browser PDF plugin thingy, it's way nicer than putting more crap on my desktop. :)

[J@tko]

Can confirm you need to register to download it.

If you really want to download it, I'm sure we can get a download link :)

[dekojester]

Can confirm you need to register to download it.

If you really want to download it, I'm sure we can get a download link :)

I'll upload them to the server....someday soon. :D

[fadeaway]

Thanks.

[niels1]

OMG wasnt it possible to find another host were to upload the rules ?. Damn you have to click about 6 pages to get were you want, downloading teh file. The way you handle it looks bloody proffesional but that download thing sucks :shrug:

[dekojester]

OMG wasnt it possible to find another host were to upload the rules ?. Damn you have to click about 6 pages to get were you want, downloading teh file. The way you handle it looks bloody proffesional but that download thing sucks :shrug:

tbh we didn't pick it for the download feature. We picked it for the display on the site feature. :P

But, any and all complaints about it can be directed to JO53PHS (http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=174785) - he's the one who found the setup. :D

Later this weekend I'll upload the pdfs to the webserver and add them as a direct download link.

:thumb:

[niels1]

Hahaha no I not gonna complain, just saying the way you guys handle the GTAL looks so bloody proffesionel but downloading that pdf file is a bloody nightmare. So when you uploaded it to the webserver I think it looks a lot better so no reason to complain. :nod:

[Mroziu]

Quick question about the rules. Team may attend only one qual?

[J@tko]

Quick question about the rules. Team may attend only one qual?
Nope - you can come to one or both. Your best lap counts. You can have up to 2 people on server during qual, and either driver can do laps, as long as only one of them is on track at a time. Also, different drivers can do the different sessions, so up to 4 drivers may set laps. HOWEVER, whoever sets your teams fastest lap must do at least one green-flag racing lap in the race :)

[three_jump]

Just making a simple link to a download or even upload it here is too simple eh?

[J@tko]

Just making a simple link to a download or even upload it here is too simple eh?
.
Later this weekend I'll upload the pdfs to the webserver and add them as a direct download link.

[boothy]

Just making a simple link to a download or even upload it here is too simple eh?

Heres a tif inside a rar with the rules in it. :petals:

[Mroziu]

Nope - you can come to one or both. Your best lap counts.
I was asking if we can participate only in Sunday qual session and none of our drivers will attend Friday session. And I guess from your answer that we can :)

[Mroziu]

One more question about the rules.

Teams may have up to 5 drivers in a race rooster. For 3h race this probably make no sense. So question is what should be rooster like if we plan to do 2 stints.

Team A
Driver 1
Driver 2
Reserve:
Driver 3
Driver 4
Driver 5

Or we can post

Team A
Driver 1
Driver 2
Driver 3
Driver 4
Driver 5

and choose during the race who from those 5 drivers will attend the race?

[dekojester]

One more question about the rules.

Teams may have up to 5 drivers in a race rooster. For 3h race this probably make no sense. So question is what should be rooster like if we plan to do 2 stints.

Team A
Driver 1
Driver 2
Reserve:
Driver 3
Driver 4
Driver 5

Or we can post

Team A
Driver 1
Driver 2
Driver 3
Driver 4
Driver 5

and choose during the race who from those 5 drivers will attend the race?

As long as you do not have more than 5 primary drivers, I don't care how you do it. You also cannot have more than 3 reserve drivers. You can list a maximum of 8 total. Either of those two scenarios would work.

d

[Mroziu]

Thanks for a quick answer :)

[Mroziu]

Another rules question :)

When SC is deployed pit line is open or closed until all grid will pile up?

[dekojester]

Another rules question :)

When SC is deployed pit line is open or closed until all grid will pile up?

Pitlane is open all times, unless there is a need to close it (aka car being pushed in or something blocking it.

Pit EXIT will close when all cars in the immediate area (as in within sight) of the SC queue/train are passing the pit exit area.

[MoMo92i]

Is there something saying that pitlane is close?

[dekojester]

Is there something saying that pitlane is close?

Yes. The same app that does safety car deployed etc. :nod:

[MoMo92i]

okay thanks !

[Scott Mckenzie]

Not sure if this has been covered but ill post in anyway. Can a team miss Q1 and still be eligible to take part in the Q2 on the Friday?

EDIT Nevermind, I should have read this thread properly, it has already been answered. :)

[Turbo Dad]

Is this the only blue flag rule?

NDR Sporting Code
IV.Flags
4. Blue
a.
Used as a warning to a slower car that a faster car is approaching. Use caution. Hold your line, and make no moves to impede the faster car.

Surely I'm missing some?

I presume the above rule is used in-conjunction with...

VI. Overtaking1.
Overlap
a.
When overtaking a car, you must achieve any measure of overlap with the car you are overtaking in order to have the rights for that corner.
b.
“Any Measure of Overlap” is defined as the front of the overtaking car being level with or beyond the rear quarter-panel of the overtaken car (for tin-tops) or rear wheel (for single-seaters).
c.
This measurement is taken at the normal turn-in point.

If these are the only rules that apply ,I think more detail is required or clarification

[boothy]

Last time I checked, and I dunno maybe the world has gone mad and things have changed since then, but braking on the racing line with a car behind you is "impeding the faster car".

[tmehlinger]

Last time I checked, and I dunno maybe the world has gone mad and things have changed since then, but braking on the racing line with a car behind you is "impeding the faster car".

Nope, the world is about the same now as it was then. Braking on the racing line is in fact "impeding the faster car."

[dekojester]

Rules updated, can be found here.

I've also added download links.

Changes are to the start and confirmations procedures mostly. Also a penalty for changing your numberplate while racing...it was noticed viewing the mpr after the race, so it's now controlled in the rulebooks...you shoud not need to change your numberplate in the race. It is now going to be seen as dangerous driving if done on-track.

d

[phoenixIlooka]

Referring to your Rules, under yellow flag the drivers have to decelerate and are not allowed to overtake, right?

[J@tko]

2. Yellow
a. There has been an incident somewhere upstream of the flag. Reduce your speed and be prepared to quickly and safely change direction. There is no overtaking in a yellow flag area.

If it would be safer to overtake than to slam on your brakes and not overtake, then obviously overtake, but give the place back if applicable when the track is safer :thumbsup:

[AjRose]

If it would be safer to overtake than to slam on your brakes and not overtake, then obviously overtake, but give the place back if applicable when the track is safer :thumbsup:


The way you said that it sounds like you are not allowed to overtake the car causing the yellow. :shrug:

[dekojester]

The Rules have been updated (http://newdimensionracing.com/index.php/gtal-menu/rules)

Safety Car Procedure on restarts have changed.

Included specific penalties for chat in red flag or other no chat lobby situations.

[dekojester]

Rules have been updated to change how Red Flags for major crashes/incidents work, add another option for penalties post-race, and remove racing to the line if SC deployed on final lap.

d

[dekojester]

Rules have been overhauled. Shortened by almost ten (yes 10 !) pages....mostly down to the different font, and due to cutting out some redundant crap.

Highlights of changes:



Added an increased driver limit for the 12 hour race
Changed penalty for failure to use qualifying driver from loss of fastest lap to a one-lap penalty, which will be effective from Round 6. Note that if you inform us in good time, and have a reasonable reason, we'll let it slide, unless it gets abused then teams who abuse it are subject to the penalty.
Exiting a closed pit exit under SC now merits you an SG penalty.
Defined when overtaking is allowed under SC. The lines at the start and end of the pitlane blend lines are called the "Safety Car Lines"...first one on pit entry, second on pit exit. Entering pits, you may overtake any cars still on track once you've crossed this line. Exiting pits, any cars still on track may overtake you before you've crossed the second SC line.
SC restart indicator message will come when SC is clear of track, and the Green flag will fall after the leader begins to accelerate away. We will manually type in a Safety car coming in message into regular chat from now on.
Amended points payout in the event of a shortened race: If race is abandoned after less than 75%, half points awarded. If race is abandoned after 75%, full points.
Failure to have an active IRC rep nets you a DT and a 5 points penalty.

Feel free to ask any questions. This new version should be easier to read and find info in. Be sure to reference the NDR sporting code as well. :thumbsup:

[Tomhah]

Good work :)

[phoenixIlooka]

Changed penalty for failure to use qualifying driver from loss of fastest lap to a one-lap penalty, which will be effective from Round 6. Note that if you inform us in good time, and have a reasonable reason, we'll let it slide, unless it gets abused then teams who abuse it are subject to the penalty.



What is meant here?

[Drift King CZ]

A driver who drives a qual must drive in the race.

[phoenixIlooka]

ah ok, thanks

[R.Kolz]

Talked briefly with an GTAL league admin about this rule months ago and it still catches my attention. I need to comment it, like I did after IGTC round 1 (with the result that there is no more wave arround rule in IGTC).

GTAL has had very good admining all season, no doubts about it.

But here IMO one of the worse racing rules ever invented - even somehow practised IRL as well, I can read:

"During a Safety Car period, all lapped cars between the race leader and the last car on the lead lap at the time of the Safety Car will be waved around to put all lead lap cars at time of deployment in line."

See attached file as an example - a safety car period has just started, race leader is picked up by the safety car:

- 3rd and 5th will get waved arround now as the only cars.
- 1st and 2nd before about a lap ahead of 3rd will now find themselves under pressure once more.
- 3rd will be just behind 2nd on the safety car restart.
- 4th before only a few seconds away from the podium (3rd) will now be a lap down to 3rd.
- 5th before almost a lap down on 4th, will now be just behind 4th on the safety car restart.

This rule has too much impact on any race IMO, maybe with the exception of a 10000 laps oval race with 45 secs. average laptimes. Please consider some rule change.

"Wave arround rules":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_car (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_car)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_dog)

[N!ghtm@re]

Actually I like this Rule and the big impact of it.
Makes the race and a safety car period much more exciting.
Just my opinion.......

[pik_d]

I've got to agree with Kolz even though sa| has been the beneficiary of that rule a few times. It's one hell of a free pass when the race is trying to decide which team is the best. Quite frusturating when you work hard enough to lap someone and then *poof* they're right behind you as if the last few hours never happened.

[DeadWolfBones]

Racing has always been 75% skill and 25% luck. This is no different.

[SCA-F1]

Tbh, I think this rule adds a totally new element to endurance racing. Don't forget, this is an amateur league, almost a feeder towards true, unrestricted endurance racing amongst the fastest drivers in the world, this just encourages competition, IMO. At least with rules like this, it's not the end of the world if you're at the end result of a pile-up, which will actually encourage teams to continue racing, rather than giving up when 2-3 laps down. It's hard for the big teams to have a huge lead wiped out by a SC, of course, but in contrast, it's a great test of skill to discipline yourself, and manage safety cars, and other disadvantages during the races to succeed, you don't really find this anywhere else, as far as I know, and I'd love it to stay in the rules.

[pik_d]

Racing has always been 75% skill and 25% luck. This is no different.
Well yes, but the issue is that this is TOO lucky and TOO kind to those who are a lap down, and take a way a lot of the skill involved. An alternative would be for the SC to pick up the leader, letting any one between the SC when it comes out and the leader to pass. Some cars still get lucky but it's not quite as forgiving.

At FE3 I actually got two laps back because of this rule. I was 2 laps down (we had issues :D ) with another car 1 lap down behind me. We were both 5 seconds ahead of the leader so the SC didn't pick us up. When we got to the tail end of the queue I was 1 lap down and the car behind was on the lead lap so I get waved around. As much as I appreciated that it was just too much and I'm sure anyone who I got right up behind after my 2nd time around felt very ripped off.

If it changed to simply "Cars between SC and leader waived around" it would also eat up much fewer laps under SC because they wouldn't have to spend a full lap calling out cars THEN wait a few more for them to get around.

As it is, having a SC basically be a huge "RESET" button for the race is a bit silly.

Of course doing it this way does lead to a lot of cars a lap down in between the leaders, which is probably why it's done the way it's currently done. Makes it more interesting in the middle of the race too.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

I don't like that rule either. In my opnion it just removes the endurance side of the racing, and divides the different green flag phases into quali races basically. It also means that on tracks likely to give a lot of SC periods, you can actually cruise during the first hour and get three laps down and still be eligible for the victory in the end. It isn't fair IMO.

At some point, a difference between sport and catch should be done. It's clear that this rule is making the racing more entertaining. But is the goal of motorracing is really to make the racing as much entertaining as possible? Shouldn't motorracing secure a minimum of equity to everyone?


Anyway, as Rudi said, the admins did a great job this year, probably a better one than last year. Of course there's gonna be numerous debates on various side of the rulebook before the next season, but remember: the perfect ruleset doesn't exist, and there's still going to be endless controversy on this kind of points, simply because there will always be different visions and opinions on motorracing.

[MoMo92i]

yep I agree with Yann and Spencer ! SC is really a great idea, it add some strategy and close up the leader. But I think it is a bit unfair to let everyone gaining their lap down :s

Maybe I'm a bit to much hardcore with endurance (live in Le Mans ^^) but SC in Le Mans is really only used in case of serious danger and isn't used to make the race more exciting (in fact a SC period always add some excitment ^^ changing strategy, gap...).

Anyway rules this season were really well and admin did a fantastic job ! keep it up

[JayEyeBee]

As a member of one of the weaker teams in the series, I liked the rule :). Our tires hardly ever got cold because we were racing around catching the queue.

If teams were racing for prizes or some other tangible reward, I'd definitely encourage revamping the rule, but since we're not, I don't think it's necessary (pride doesn't count) :).
Other than Spencer's situation at FE3, can anyone else give an example of a team that excessively benefited or was punished by this rule? (Genuine question, I'd like to know.) If there is a lot of evidence to support a change, I'm willing to be convinced. I'm not, yet.
Jonathan

PS
a difference between sport and catch should be done I don't know what you mean by this. Sport vs spectacle, maybe?

[MoMo92i]

Conquest racing @ final round...Think they were a lap down when SC come (maybe i'm wrong, in this case sorry)

[JayEyeBee]

Conquest racing @ final round...Think they were a lap down when SC come (maybe i'm wrong, in this case sorry)

Well, I know a lot of people can pull a situation or two that they think they remember out of the top of their heads. Spencer's thorough explanation is more what I need. This example doesn't help me decide if the rule should be changed. Conquest was waved around in error because of confusion due to a disconnect, that doesn't mean that the rule is wrong or right, just that they shouldn't have been waved around.

[boothy]

Conquest racing @ final round...Think they were a lap down when SC come (maybe i'm wrong, in this case sorry)

Actually they were on the lead lap in 4th position and accidentally waved around (we mistook them for a lap down car as they had timed out) - ironically though, it would have put them directly behind Piropo as he failed in T2 on the restart, so a bit of good fortune there :tilt:

[jasonmatthews]

SR have lost out a crazy amount in quite a few races tbh. I hate the rule, and it is a fact it has cost us a few race wins, but some like it from my own team. Personally, I can handle the safety car closing gaps (just), but gaining laps back is just stupid IMHO.

[PMD9409]

Example:

Your racing at FE3, 1:16 second laptimes. You are 45 seconds behind the leader and are coming to the final stint where you are putting in your best driver (position in this doesn't matter). You pit with 1h 7m left because your best driver is better on tires.

As you pit you lose 35 seconds and come out of the pits 5 seconds behind the leader, at that very moment an SC comes out. You are not caught a lap down, no wave around.

Tough luck? Same tough luck if you get beat by a team that was waved around tbh.


*I don't really care about the rule, as I am not in the league, but I just like to stir the pot. :razz:

[MoMo92i]

that's the same in IGTC...keeping your best driver for the end of the race is just the key...if there is a SC :D That's what we did on each races ! (whereas when there is no SC I generally prefer do the contrary)

Last safety car was before the mid of the race so it didn't change so much the result because indeed Cq were fast (maybe the fastest on track) and finally the same teams were on the top...Cq, CoRe, SR, CW (DC), E-Team...but I think if SC closing gap is the race, enable everyone to come back to the leading lap is just an unfair advantage. not a question of right or wrong, just about equity :) it never really happened now but for example last round, 7karat were a lap down after only 1 or 2 hours didn't remember exactly. After the two safety car they were back into the podium. that's my point if you don't agree that's your point ;) Anyway i'm not admin so let's wait what admins gonna do !

Edit : I have found a better example : Round 6 winner was a lap down before the safety car...:D

[PMD9409]

Well they had to work through the field to do that don't they? It's not they start first after being put on the lead lap.

It can be unfair both ways, why not make first 3-5 cars that are a lap down get their lap back? Or is that still unfair?

Only reason I like this rule is that it does some justice to those who lose connection during a race, which I see as unfair as we have no control over it. In a 6 hour race, the fastest team times out after 4 hours and a 75 second lead at AS4R (this is an example). They timeout at the very end of the lap and lose that lap, but barely get a driver back in so they don't lose two. After 30 minutes a XRR gets stuck in the sand = SC. The fastest team now gets their lap back and start 25th in queue. In the last 1.5 hours they work their way to the win by 10 seconds. Is this also an unfair win?

/me stirs and runs again

[Ki-Men]

Hi guys.
Dont cry now , after seson , abaut the rules in the league.
You all sign up for that and accept it how it is standing in the rulebook.
This all give me the Deja-vu feeling , when we asked in 2009 NDR cart series after start seson the "lucky dog" rules implementation , and what was the answer?
Did you remmeber?

[R.Kolz]

As a member of one of the weaker teams in the series, I liked the rule :). Our tires hardly ever got cold because we were racing around catching the queue.

You might be running on 24th and still get punished by this rule if your car isn´t on the right spot at the right time - but 25th to 32th are in between leader and last car on leading lap. :shy:
Looks like you have been on the right spot at the right time so far.
Weaker team or not isn´t a valid point either actually. Check the rule once more. It´s about if your car at the moment you see the yellow flag message,that´s the point of reference I asume, is situated in between the race leader and the last car on the leading lap only.
And this is a 50/50 chance (not sure about the % rate actually).

Example:
Your racing at FE3, 1:16 second laptimes. You are 45 seconds behind the leader and are coming to the final stint where you are putting in your best driver (position in this doesn't matter). You pit with 1h 7m left because your best driver is better on tires.
As you pit you lose 35 seconds and come out of the pits 5 seconds behind the leader, at that very moment an SC comes out. You are not caught a lap down, no wave around. Tough luck? Same tough luck if you get beat by a team that was waved around tbh.

That would be a bad outcome for you - caused by having a SC in a race.
But what if 3rd to 10th place would be in between you and the leader? Cars almost a lap down before would then again fight you for 2nd.
That´s SC plus this rule = even worse for you and not really the "same tough luck".
And finally: Also a car having had a timeout can become a victim of this rule as it´s only about where you car is situated at a certain point of time because it´s not just like that all lapped cars will get waved arround automatically.

I think I made my point and hope that existing as well as future league admins might fall over this thread some time.

[JayEyeBee]

Hi guys.
Dont cry now , after seson , abaut the rules in the league.
You all sign up for that and accept it how it is standing in the rulebook.
This all give me the Deja-vu feeling , when we asked in 2009 NDR cart series after start seson the "lucky dog" rules implementation , and what was the answer?
Did you remmeber?

As far as I can tell, no one is crying about the rule, we're discussing if we want it to change. So far the discussion has been civil, and dare I say, reasonably productive. It may not change anything, but so far it's not a debate I'm ashamed to be a participant, yet. I can point to examples of crying in the forums, this isn't it. Do you have an opinion on this rule?


. . .Weaker team or not isn´t a valid point either actually . .

There was no point in my 'weaker team' statement, it was just a little self-deprecating joke.
You might be running on 24th . . .

If I understand the gist of the rest of your argument, you feel that luck is too much of a factor in whether or not you benefit or are punished by the wave around rule. Point taken.

[MoMo92i]

*snip*

I think it would be a nice improve with one or some lucky dog :p

[GreyBull [CHA]]

PS
I don't know what you mean by this. Sport vs spectacle, maybe?

Yes, well. I'm still a bit uncommon with some transparent words, catch=wrestling in French, so I mixed up the two words.

[manneF1]

Agreed whit others.

When I was driving on last round, we were lap down, and we were able to overtake the leader. When the next SC pull out, we were one lap down again, and we was able to overtake the leader. So we would be 2laps behind the leader if this wouldent happen

So I think this is quite unfair to leaders

[N!ghtm@re]

Agreed whit others.

When I was driving on last round, we were lap down, and we were able to overtake the leader. When the next SC pull out, we were one lap down again, and we was able to overtake the leader. So we would be 2laps behind the leader if this wouldent happen

So I think this is quite unfair to leaders

I like the rule even I know that you finished infront of us only because of this rule :)
Yeah maybe a bit unfair but it's so much more exciting.
ANd I think its not really unfair to the leaders because u shouldnt be a problem for the leaders only because u are on the same lap again.
Usually the teams in top should be faster than the teams a lap down right ?

[Tomhah]

yeah, I like this rule. Give you some pressure and an exciting race with close battles :)