Haters

[theblackrabbi]

Hi I haven't played this game in a month now, so I'm getting back into it. I love it as always but I had a very bad experience against 3 players. As soon as I mentioned I was from the USA the started hating against me, saying F the US, F me, and then on the first race crashed me right away.

I'm not sure if the LFS community is as great as everyone says now, and I just might go on to play more Rfactor because of these 3 people, Metal Headshot, Campos_MIC (Marcio Campos, and gsbr ([VTA]GR-R)

Thanks guys for killing my experience. I'm not whining but this is baby shit. They booted me for no reason after, so this just adds to my frustration a bit, especially since in trying to get back into the game I loved not too long ago. :pillepall

[spankmeyer]

You do know there is a zero shit-throwing tolerance at this forum what comes to name dropping? You are angry for something that happened online (we only know your side of the story), but posting names without even a replay isn't helping your cause.
And if you judge a whole bunch of people by three individuals, well... I dunno... good luck finding happiness in life! :thumb:

[Hankstar]

Why give a toss about what some people you've never met think of you? If they want to be arseholes, let them. If you were in the right, fine. Let the bullies have their corner of the sandpit. But don't post their names and give them a cheap thrill...it's not like they'll be banned or have their licenses revoked.

It's happened to me too, but I know w4nkers like that are the minority in LFS. So go join another server and pretend you're from Canada :D

[spankmeyer]

Or better yet, take some really neutral and unthreatning country like Iceland or Switzerland. Everybody hates you when you got the bombs, but when your main attraction is whale meat or cheese, you can guarantee no one's going to mess with you. :)

[Hankstar]

I dunno, some people get pretty upset about whale meat ...

[spankmeyer]

But dropping whale meat and cheese from airplanes at unsuspecting people is better than explosives, right?

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Could still be deadly :shrug:

[spankmeyer]

War is hell... :(

[filur]

"Welsh Liar"

[Hankstar]

But dropping whale meat and cheese from airplanes at unsuspecting people is better than explosives, right?

Well, it's maybe not as deadly, but it would be bloody annoying and still illegal under International Law and the Geneva Conventions :scratchch

Hey, nice anagram filur :)

[Gabkicks]

rabbi just go to a different server :p a small population of the lfs community is very immature.

[theblackrabbi]

I'm name dropping because I felt like maybe they would get the picture and play like real people :) It just got me so mad that this happend in one of my first races after a while, and I don't believe anyone should get away with it. Sorry if I offended anyone by dropping names in the first place, but it just really pissed me off to hell.

Anyways thanks for listening,
rabbi just go to a different server :p a small population of the lfs community is very immature.

[Infiniti]

Well it is true, I don't mention my location, maybe my origin cause most people are cool with Australia. but noo not usa, even though we help pick up other countries off their feet, then they flame us :shrug: Oh well lets not get into that, but just go to a new server, if they ask where your from just bs them say my computer desk, in my house...

[Krane]

But dropping whale meat and cheese from airplanes at unsuspecting people is better than explosives, right? http://static.flickr.com/25/58649993_30cfb197c9_m.jpgI came across the BoingBoing 'drop shadows not bombs' post today, and it made me think of this shirt i printed a few months ago. It's nice to think of what would happen if we chose to drop kittens, not bombs. People would be too happy, too joyful to send their crazy young men at us with airplanes and exploding shoes.:thumb:

[Vykos69]

Well it is true, I don't mention my location, maybe my origin cause most people are cool with Australia. but noo not usa, even though we help pick up other countries off their feet, then they flame us :shrug: Oh well lets not get into that, but just go to a new server, if they ask where your from just bs them say my computer desk, in my house...
Getting sick of whole world telling you to stop playing worldpolice? ;)

No probs with US-peeps here, exept they start whining about how they are treated in the world ;)

About topic: As usual in such a situation: Relax, choose another server, and enjoy LF there. That's the way it worked the last years and works today ;)

[farcar]

Everyone should keep politics and LFS completely seperate. It's a racing game, not a friggin political forum. I have very strong views on America's (and Australia's) foreign policy but I'll never talk about 'em here.

[Fetzo]

i agree with you, farcar.

but when i read comments like that one from infiniti i can hardly resist to do the opposite.

but as vykos said:

As usual in such a situation: Relax, choose another post, and enjoy reading that. That's the way it worked the last years and works today.

[Funnybear]

Hi I haven't played this game in a month now, so I'm getting back into it. I love it as always but I had a very bad experience against 3 players. As soon as I mentioned I was from the USA the started hating against me, saying F the US, F me, and then on the first race crashed me right away.

I'm not sure if the LFS community is as great as everyone says now, and I just might go on to play more Rfactor because of these 3 people, Metal Headshot, Campos_MIC (Marcio Campos, and gsbr ([VTA]GR-R)

Thanks guys for killing my experience. I'm not whining but this is baby shit. They booted me for no reason after, so this just adds to my frustration a bit, especially since in trying to get back into the game I loved not too long ago. :pillepall

Mate. It's a shame that you got a personally bad experiance. I hope to think that most people around here are mature enough to understand that one American citizen does not a country make . . . .

Hopefully you can find a more understanding server who will not flame you for your nationality.

But. (I'm sorry about this but I do have a but.)

I think you need to understand that America is not the worlds most favourite country atm. (Neither Great Britain. Our respective governments have conspired to ruin my travel plans this year.) America has smade it's presence felt all over the world and alot of it is deemed unwelcome, unnessary and if you believe the conspiricy theorists (which, when it comes to America, alot of people do), world Domination.

Most people around the globe will look at your flag and take into account the situation whethers it's just declaring your nationality or being flown from the top of a tank and make a carefully and considered reaction to that situation. On this site and within LFS it just tells me that your American and I factor in my own responses to that. But for many the flag is a symbol of hate, decadence and greed. Which by proxy, includes you.

I don't know how you voted and I certainly don't intend to turn this into a political arguement. But if you Voted Bush, you have to expect peoples reactions to be at best abrupt, at worst a kicking. If you didn't vote Bush then you need to work harder to make sure evil bastards like him don't get into power ever again!!!

This isn't a personal attack. I have worked with many great, great american and consider alot of them my friends. One thing that strikes them when they come here or travel abit is the sheer amount of animosity people hold against the United States. They are shocked and aborred by how people treat them and how everyone seems to hold them to account for what their governmenet is diong . . . Above all, they are most shocked with America's foreign policy, which only the rest of the world gets to hear about. Or feel it when the bombs drop.

At this moment in time Black Rabbi and this present world climate. I think you have to expect some verbal and a kicking every once in a while. It's a shame, but it's what's happening.

[Becky Rose]

I feel ashamed of my prime minister, and deeply sorry about the 100+ foreign wars my country has been involved in since the end of World War 2. Mostly I am ashamed of my countries actions over Iraq, and I would like to see my Prime Minister at the very least sent to trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Tony Blair is an evil man, and I would gladly join a revolution to throw him out if I could find one.

My country does take the odd battering because of it's actions - you'll never find a neutral referee when England play Argentina at football, even though that dispute was very much the fault of the Argentines ! It's a reputation my country has fought hard for, by invading and back door dealing.

America is now doing the same, only with a bigger budget. I'm sorry, but your experience is only to be expected.

The solution?

Find a small isolated island with no national flag and a broadband pipe.

[farcar]

Irrespective of any of this sentiment, and I'm sorry to dwell on the point, I think it would be best if politics was left out.
To me, this forum is a goup of individuals from different nations who have a passion for out chosen racing sim.

Nobody should 'expect' to be flamed here on the basis of what country they come from.

[Funnybear]

Your right, this isn't a political forum, but Black Rabbi entered his thoughts onto the forum and people are responding as well they can with freedom of speech and censorship.

@Becky. Mate. I am so with you. But remember, only God can judge him (must have been talking to Bush again) so why should he listen to his electorate.

To be honest I think the whole system is screwed up. Brown cuts pensions whilst passes a Bill to raise MP's own Pension schemes to add to the many they have with multi nationals the've 'earned' through consultancy's and the like . . .

Come the revolution . . . .

[wsinda]

But remember, only God can judge himSo British PMs enjoy life-long judicial immunity? Gosh...
[/OT]

[Funnybear]

We're working on it . . .

He said that ultimate judgement belongs to god (Or something). Kinda like he was saying na na na naaa naaaa and poking his toungue out ar all the other humans who share the planet with him.

He is pushing (kinda) for enviromental reform though. But I guess only god will judge him on that too after he's ****ed with all creation.

[spankmeyer]

There are quite a few people on this planet that could use nice firm bitchslap from God him/her/itself. Buuuuuuuut... I think we've had enough of OT political and religious talk on this thread, so maybe we should just drop it before it gets ugly.

[Greboth]

In respnse to everything said. I have my own views on america - some are bad, that doesnt mean im gonna flame any american though cause i have more problems with the uk and im english lol. I also think there are alot of corrupt countries and countries doing things wrong. Im no sayin i could change them or make things better. Its just i have my own opinions and no one cna change them, but i wont flame anyone whos from a country i hav a bad opinion of, or anyone that has a different opinion.
LFS is a racing sim shared by all, we are all here to race against people from all over the world. For the enjoyment of it.
Kinda reminds me of the thread bout female racers, was said in there about doesnt matter what sex you are, all here for same reason. Its the same with countries, doesnt matter where you from.
My view - i couldnt care less wat sex people are, where they are from, where they live now, what the views are on the world, who they know etc etc - all i care bout is that they are there to race and can i beat them lol.

There will always be assholes who will do things like kick you cause ur american. When it comes down to it they are just racist really. Just find another server to race on where this wont happen (if you like gtr racing check out the [MG] Racing server lol)

Last of all, im sorry that after you come back you have such a bad experience, not everyone is like that.

[YUGO45]

..... even though we help pick up other countries off their feet, then they flame us .....

One can say that you are very informed :pillepall

Personally I wish you stop "helping" other countries and start concetrating on your. :razz:

[Bramski]

Or better yet, take some really neutral and unthreatning country like Iceland or Switzerland.

Dude are you serious, have you seen those knives the swiss army carry, they could easily take someones eye out :Looking_a



:)

[Rappa Z]

This is racial!

[spankmeyer]

Riiiiiight. :confused:

[tinvek]

trouble is blackrabbi it doesnt matter what nationality you are, no matter what you post, if people wish too they can find something which will reinforce their stereotype view of your home country and its people. unfortunatly your argument about helping other countries etc probably isnt the best thing to type.

at the moment usa is unpopular in may parts of the world, it is patently unjust to blame any one individual in community for a country's actions (unless your really george w bush :) (joke)).

unfortunatly there are always idiots in every community, be they online or real world. hence you get the agro from idiots online and you heard of attacks on muslims after 9/11 even though they obviously had nothing to do with the attacks, they ,like you, were just the wrong "type" in the wrong place at the wrong time, or rather the right "type" in the right place at the right time for someone to vent their feelings.

these people that gave you problems may actually have a genuine dislike of USA, in which case they shouldn't take it out on you, or more likely they decided it would be fun to wind you up, in which case they succeeded. as mentioned before anything like this happens, save a record of it, contact admins etc, don't rely on just posting here as its just their word against yours.

[danowat]

People will look for any excuse to take a pop, heck I have been called "Limey" (not that I even know what it means) by Americans, but so what, just ignore it.

At the end of the day, who gives a flying frig what some guy sitting at his PC thinks about you?.

Dan,

[bubbles]

Its sad that only the innocent people are involved, in sure no one learn anything from WW1 WW2, I don't even remember what I had for breakfast last Wednesday, do you? Do any of you?
As long as human stupidity exists so will racism..

[danowat]

I don't even remember what I had for breakfast last Wednesday, do you? Do any of you?


Yep, 3 Shredded Wheat with semi-skimmed milk, and a cup of tea, same as every morning :thumb:

Dan,

[Funnybear]

Thats not strictly Remembering though is it Dan. That's just routine.

And for the Limey question . . .

During the naval days of the Great British Empire (Another expantionist, empirical, tyranical, do gooding nation if ever there was one. You gotta watch those Brits.) scurvy was a common problem abourd ships. (Scurvy is Vit C deficientcy. Causes rickets and a whole host of other problems.) To combat that the British Navy and long voyage ships would carry Limes as they are high in Vit C. Thus limes . . Limeys.

Not really a derogatory term I've always thought. More of a 'hey, thats a good idea. Why didn't we think of that' kinda name.

[Warper]

Its sad that only the innocent people are involved, in sure no one learn anything from WW1 WW2, I don't even remember what I had for breakfast last Wednesday, do you? Do any of you?
As long as human stupidity exists so will racism..

What? Germans did learn a lot! I would say that there is no other country in the whole world where the poeple are as afraid as the german public of upcoming rascism in there own country! We did learn... every damn schoolboy works at least 3 or 4 times on the topic WW2 in school. Sorry for beeing harsh, but i can't hear this "nobody learns from history" stuff anymore.

So, let's stop talkin about politics. They aren't interesting while racing as long as the fuel isn't too expensive and as long as i rock all the british damon hill mates on the track :P (ONLY JOCKIN)

greets,
Warper

[Gentlefoot]

Thick skin is compulsory for anyone wishing to enjoy LFS. Self criticism is also a 'must have' ability I reckon

[Julppu]

Thick skin is compulsory for anyone wishing to enjoy LFS.

You mean like *really* dark colors or just many many layers of stickers? :D

[Becky Rose]

as long as the fuel isn't too expensive
LOL... Probably not the best statement to make, given the topic ! :)

[Vykos69]

and as long as i rock all the british damon hill mates on the track :P
What? Who's Damon Hill anyway? Didnt he get toasted by Mansell on Top Gear?

[Becky Rose]

Hill beat Schumacher in an inferior car, Mansell may or may not be better, but you cannot take that away from Damon. He would have won twice too if the German representative (sorry couldnt resist that given the thread) hadn't cheated so many times to get his first title, especially at that last race in Aussie when he'd already crashed out then drove back onto the track specifically to take Damon out of the race too.

So yeah, our definately not a nazi has learned from history German friend here can 'rock' the Damon fans all he likes on the track. I've got a lot of respect for Damon, so bring it on :)

[Warper]

LOL... Probably not the best statement to make, given the topic ! :)

WTF... sorry for that :D

What? Who's Damon Hill anyway? Didnt he get toasted by Mansell on Top Gear?

Atleast Webber was about 3 seconds faster then him in the reasonably prized car. :D

So yeah, our definately not a nazi has learned from history German friend here can 'rock' the Damon fans all he likes on the track. I've got a lot of respect for Damon, so bring it on

I'm not as good in english - i hope that was ment to be sarcastic! Otherwise are your last sentences only laughable - sorry :) And the rest? Don't let us discuss about a boring topic which had been discussed sooo many times - i just tried to turn this thread away from these erneast politc discussion!

Greets,
Warper

[Blowtus]

you think there are no rfactor players that dislike U.S-ians? :) :)

[MARSH2a]

I think this is a healthy discussion for us all. And by the looks of things everyone is handling this very well. None of us make the policies that our leaders employ. I for one am pleased to be a part of such a global community that for the most part seems to get along just fine. :)

I think some lessons can be learned right here. We all have at least one thing in common here, LFS. It brings us together in a competitive environment, and yet most folks are more than willing to help one another with advice, set-ups and the like. :thumb:

Sure there are times when flaming occurs, or a slur is tossed at another. But for the most part, this is the most globally united online community I've participated in. Unlike the last one I was into, which totally broke down over international issues. Not a sim, not a shooter... a simple game of online pool. :shrug:

Be proud, LFS'ers. The world could learn a lesson from this community.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Can't everyone just get along?

hehe

:dopey:

[filur]

I'm not sure if the LFS community is as great as everyone says now, and I just might go on to play more Rfactor because of these 3 people

I guess the tricky bit is we're still on the internets, where opinions need no backing arguments and everyone happily shares without much thought, and i just generalized a few million billion internet users, sorry. :)

[Becky Rose]

I'm not as good in english - i hope that was ment to be sarcastic!
Nope, I was saying 'lets race'... You can beat on this Damon fan all you like...

I think when it comes to lessons learned from the Nazi's i'd say Britain and America perhaps have the shortest memory of all. Bush even used Hitler as a comparison for Hussein in the build up to the war, which I found interesting and ironic, and even more ironic considering the British tenacity to remember the war whenever a German is within 800 yards.

We could all do with a little less pride on ocassion. It's not as if the blood of our ancestors actually courses through our veins, if it did, we'd actually die out pretty quickly because of all the new diseases we've grown immune to over the centuries...

[Speed Soro]

Hi I haven't played this game in a month now, so I'm getting back into it. I love it as always but I had a very bad experience against 3 players. As soon as I mentioned I was from the USA the started hating against me, saying F the US, F me, and then on the first race crashed me right away.

I'm not sure if the LFS community is as great as everyone says now, and I just might go on to play more Rfactor because of these 3 people, Metal Headshot, Campos_MIC (Marcio Campos, and gsbr ([VTA]GR-R)

Thanks guys for killing my experience. I'm not whining but this is baby shit. They booted me for no reason after, so this just adds to my frustration a bit, especially since in trying to get back into the game I loved not too long ago. :pillepall

These 3 people are brazilian racers, and we are investigating about your complaint. If confirmed our bad suspect, they'll be punished under our rules (www.lfsbr.com (http://www.lfsbr.com)).

[Becky Rose]

Can't everyone just get along?
Can 20 cars get through T1 of Blackwood without incident?

[Arthur Cavalera]

I know some of these guys, and...

If this really happened, I doubt that it was without a cause. :shrug:

[Funnybear]

I think this thread has actually shown how grown up some of us are. I second the motion that this is one of the better Forums around. The last thing we should do when issues such as this arise is hide from them and sweep them under the 'this is not LFS related' carpet.

Unfortuanatly it is LFS related because it occured whilst playing LFS. Hopefully The BlackRabbi dude (What a curious name btw.) can come back on, read through and feel that A: something has been done about his grievence and B: that the community understand his feelings and C: We have feelings and advice of our own.

All given in a grown up and sensible manner.

Bravo.

Let's have a group hug.

Not too hard, I'm only little.

Aww, man. I feel so blessed.

[th84]

Ive had my share of run in's with the anti-american lfs'ers assiciation (AALA) also, just ignore them, find a more friendly server, and move on!! Lfs is to much fun to allow one or two people to ruin it for ya!! race on!!

[Smax]

I too harbour plenty of stereotypes some positive some negative, but in the context of this forum/community, I'll keep 'em to myself unless I'm given reason to wave them about.

The only reason I ever look to see which flag is under a poster's name is to see whether or not English is likely to be their first language so that I can think about how to phrase my reply to them.

This is usually an understanding, helpful and even friendly place to be... sure there's going to be exceptions, there always is, but let's focus on the posistive and that way ensure we keep this community as it is. :thumb:

[_rod_]

I do hate americans specially th84 (sucker):razz: . Now seriously i have nothing against US cientizens, but i do have agains a few politicions. Since this thread is about U.S and some and its actions along the world, and as we know some americans cant understand why people hate them(not the words i would pick, but couldnt write it better), for those who doesnt understand the reason why, and for those who havent watched it yet, i would like to recommend 2 documentarys

1- Bowling For Columbine
2- Fahrenheit 9/11

If you have watched those two, well dunno what elso i could recoment to try to make you understand.:scratchch

Just to make it clear, as i know my inglish is not as good it used to be, (if it ever was:razz: ) it wasnt intended to anyone:thumb:

[SamH]

Can't everyone just get along?
OMFG!! hehehe!!
You can beat on this Damon fan all you like
Awww bless!
I for one am pleased to be a part of such a global community that for the most part seems to get along just fine.
Ditto!

The American people really don't stand a chance because they're extraordinarily detached (read: media-protected) from international opinion of them. That's probably why theblackrabbi was so upset... the news came as a shock. It shouldn't have happened though.. shame on whoever the attackers were. They have no right to pollute our sporting Xanadu that way!

LFS is a sport. Never mix politics and sport.

If Americans wanna know what the rest of the world thinks of them, they should dig and find out elsewhere on the Internet. I wouldn't personally recommend it, because they won't be able to change anything and it'll just depress them.

[th84]

To be fair to those bush supporters(are there any??) those 2 documentary's were made by Michael Moore, one of the biggest anti-bush Americans you will ever see!! So it doesnt really give a un-biased look at it! They were made to make G.W. look bad, not that he needs any help with that!!!

/me votes to impeach bush press 1 (1/120,092,124)

I for one do understand alot of the people opinions of americans, but i still dont think its fair!! And it dont depress me either, there is nothing i can do or say to change the opionions of people, all i can do is be myself and let the chips fall where they may!

[_rod_]

Actually 9/11 is direct to bush, the columbine is direct to the us and weapons, but it metions about how the U.S gave money to the own people(gentalmens such as Osama Bin Landen, Hussein, and others more.) who ended up using it against the U.S.

[sinbad]

I do hate americans specially th84 (sucker):razz: . Now seriously i have nothing against US cientizens, but i do have agains a few politicions. Since this thread is about U.S and some and its actions along the world, and as we know some americans cant understand why people hate them(not the words i would pick, but couldnt write it better), for those who doesnt understand the reason why, and for those who havent watched it yet, i would like to recommend 2 documentarys

1- Bowling For Columbine
2- Fahrenheit 9/11

If you have watched those two, well dunno what elso i could recoment to try to make you understand.:scratchch

Just to make it clear, as i know my inglish is not as good it used to be, (if it ever was:razz: ) it wasnt intended to anyone:thumb:

Michael Moore, despite being right about a lot of things I'm sure, is not neccessarily the honest journalist striving to right every wrong in America in the face of a massive corrupt government working purely to stop him that he would like us all to think he is.

Watch those films and enjoy them, but do not take what is shown and said as the gospel truth, and watch them as sceptically as you would any other news broadcast or politican's press briefing.

[SamH]

To be fair to those bush supporters(are there any??) those 2 documentary's were made by Michael Moore, one of the biggest anti-bush Americans you will ever see!! So it doesnt really give a un-biased look at it! They were made to make G.W. look bad, not that he needs any help with that!!!

/me votes to impeach bush press 1 (1/120,092,124)

I think you just leap-frogged the point. Nobody was pointing you to a way to see what anti-Bush people think of Bush. Watch those documentaries to gain an insight into what the WORLD thinks of Bush, and sadly by default, what they think generally of Americans.

Whether you agree with Moore or not, his films are pretty representative of a perspective that seems generally accepted as a global view of Americans. The first thing you have to do is drop the "well that's just one very biased view.." stance, because it's a pretty well THE WORLD view, biased or not.

If it's wrong, it's over to you to explain how. Think of it as a fabulous, ambassadorial opportunity if you will. But once we enter that phase of the discussion, we should really move over to the Off Topic section of the forum. It's a huge nut to crack.

PS: I have an American ex-wife and 2 American kids. I'm no stranger to this process.

[Smax]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

sums up my own opinions of the works of Michael Moore quite well.

[speedykev]

What? Who's Damon Hill anyway?
The Stig.

[SamH]

Michael Moore, despite being right about a lot of things I'm sure, is not neccessarily the honest journalist striving to right every wrong in America in the face of a massive corrupt government working purely to stop him that he would like us all to think he is.
I've little doubt that the NRA would like to see him dead.
[EDIT:] ..and is also probably one of the best-equipped groups in the world for the task, too.
Watch those films and enjoy them, but do not take what is shown and said as the gospel truth, and watch them as sceptically as you would any other news broadcast or politican's press briefing.
You can and should say that about anything.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

OMFG!! hehehe!!


LOL.

UH... Sorry EH?

... Since I'm here, I really doubt that the worldview in general is synonymous with that of Micheal Moore... Perhaps in terms of general sentiment or satire, but not all the way there. :shrug:

[th84]

Its not a stance, its my opinion(is there a diffrence?). I agree with Michael Moore and others like him, but not everyone does. I never commented on what the world feels about us, there is no point in that! I can only hope that people dont use things such as that to decide their feelings about the american people!! We are not all oil hungry war hogs! As i said above(which was left out) i wont try to change the feelings of those who dis-like us, all i can do is live my life and support my family the best i can!

Whether you agree with Moore or not, his films are pretty representative of a perspective that seems generally accepted as a global view of Americans. The first thing you have to do is drop the "well that's just one very biased view.." stance, because it's a pretty well THE WORLD view, biased or not

im not sure if thats correct or not, i am a american living in america, so i cant really comment on peoples feelings other than what i see on the news and what ive read on forums such as this! and tbh, alot of the stuff i read i agree with, but theres not a whole lot i can do about it.

[SamH]

... Since I'm here, I really doubt that the worldview in general is synonymous with that of Micheal Moore... Perhaps in terms of general sentiment or satire, but not all the way there. :shrug:

Nahh that's really what I meant. I don't think everyone assumed Moore's perspective at all.. but in general sentiment, I think it's a good place to start if you're an American wanting to figure out what "everyones' issue is" with Americans. There's lots of good conversation-starters in Moore's documentaries.

[Infiniti]

:( I'm not so happy with America right now! Course I couldn't run it, but I know we are doing something(s) wrong. For instance someone said we should just stop being world police and worry about our own, and I'd be just fine with that. Erm, I do have dual citizenship with Australia, and I do plan on going to college there, I'm just to worried about the future of the US and pissing off countries making nuclear bombs. I've been to Australia quite a few times to see the relatives, and I'm set on living there. The US is just to cocky, and stereo typed too often.

[Racer Y]

hey Rabbi, I was gonna respond to this earlier, but I didn't know exactly what to say in the post. Now I do :)

What you you shoulda said to them, right before they banned you was:
I can't help it if y'all are a bunch a greasy little foriegn kids! Geesh! Get a green card.
LOL I bet that woulda set them off >:)

I dunno why anyone, no matter what their Nationality or politics are would make
such a big deal out of it - especialy on a LFS server. We're a pretty "worldly" bunch at that. plus aren't we all just the low man on one really big totem pole anyways?

Personally, I'm a right wing anarchist, but I'm all too aware that if a system like that was to be implemented, it would fall flat on its face. It looks good on paper though :).... Hey wait a minute so does Communism, Democratic Socialism and free market capitalism.....hmmmm maybe we need go back with tribal warchiefs and witch doctors - things were sooo much simpler then.

[th84]

For instance someone said we should just stop being world police and worry about our own, and I'd be just fine with that.

Me too!! I think thats our biggest problem, we (as in American leaders) stick our nose's too many places where they dont belong!

[Hallen]

Nahh that's really what I meant. I don't think everyone assumed Moore's perspective at all.. but in general sentiment, I think it's a good place to start if you're an American wanting to figure out what "everyones' issue is" with Americans. There's lots of good conversation-starters in Moore's documentaries.

Moore's stuff is the worst kind of one-sided, opinionated, grandstanding with extremely limited grasp on reality that can't be rebutted because it is in the form of a movie. It is a good place to start if you want the longest possible trip to the truth. "Documentaries" is the wrong word to use for his work. One man's vengeful opinion is not a documentary.

America is it's own worst enemy for sure. America's politics are arguable. But that is the beauty of it and other free countries. Do you think a regime run by Nazi's or Saddam would allow any arguing in the first place? Don't think so. But there is another type of total control regime out there. It is the benign "we will take care of you because you are unable to take care of yourself" regime. This government thinks that you are not smart enough to take care of yourself so the government will wheedle its way into everything you do to the point of even telling you how to think. This is similar to communism. It is designed to help the little guy, but in the end, all it does is control the little guy.

Say what you want, but please, do real research first and don't base it off of Moore's diatribe. And don't generalize to an entire population. The US has all types. I have friends that hale from all points on the globe and I am extremely grateful for that.

And for Rabbi, don't let a couple of punks influence your fun. Ignore them, go to a different server and don't project their stupidity on other people. They are responsible for their actions as you are responsible for yours.

[th84]

lmao!! i can always count on kev!! a**hole!!:razz:

[KiD-OtA]

Let's have a group hug
Good idea , let´s have an international group hug
And forget about whales , bombs , swiss knives , michael moore , bush , fuel

[_rod_]

Just a quick one, when i said the documentary that Moore made, it was only meant to be a sort of, how can i saw this...To open the people that thought that america was saving the other countries, i NEVER meant it as Moore is the truth. I only mentioned his works because i thought it would be the easiest one that a american could find, and sort of a open mind.

Now lets all of us into a big hug ;)

[Racer Y]

Just a quick one, when i said the documentary that Moore made, it was only meant to be a sort of, how can i saw this...To open the people that thought that america was saving the other countries, i NEVER meant it as Moore is the truth. I only mentioned his works because i thought it would be the easiest one that a american could find, and sort of a open mind.

Now lets all of us into a big hug ;)

LOL Sure Michael Moore is openminded - as long as it fits into his field of view
And if it don't, he'll either make it so or call it evil.

That is a big problem happening in America, Hollywood is trying to politicize itself and celebrities are trying to sway public opinion on issues that they themselves are actually totally clueless about... It'd be nice if they went back to making decent movies again wouldn't it? I mean who REALLY wants to see Brokeback Mountain or History of a Geisha? And these bozos want me to support the causes and candidates THEY endorse?

But I think this topic has gone waay waay past the scope of LFS

Hmmm... maybe we should all try and get along together and go after them
MRT users... yeah MRT users! They're just not fit to play LFS.
.............

[Funnybear]

Every 'demoracy' needs a Michael Moore. We have one. His name is Mark Thomas. Been a bit quiet of late, but's he's working on new ways to severly embarris the government. And boy does he have teh amterial.

You see, thats the thing about the Michael Moores of the world. Governments just can't help but give them all the ammunition they require, those 'documentories' pretty much write themselves. Michael Moore and Mark Thomas et al are very brave men. They fly in the face of the establishment and long may they continue. I am for one a fan of Michael Moore. I'm a fan of his work, his bravery, his erudite wit and his comprehensive unashameded slagging of George 'W' Bush. (Gosh, that super computer that moniters all communication everywhere up on Goon Hilly down must be having a field day with us. Nobody mention assasination. (Shit. I just did) Or Ji Had. (Shit, did it again.) Oil and the Bin Laden Family (God damn) or Pretsils (Awww, I'm going straight to Quantanimo for that one!)) I'm not a huge fan of the man himself, he's big, where's a baseball cap and he's American, but hell I'll let him off just this once. He mat rattle a few cages but hey, guess what, thats the plan! Would the world at large now about the nine minute stare or the Bin Laden flight or the Haliburton bid to control the entire Middle East or the ammended PATRIOT act. Do any of you yanks actually know what is contained in the Patriot Act? Would any of the points that Moore raises have been seen at all? Would Fox show anything bad about Bush and his Cronies? Or should that be the Cronies and their Bush?

Not to say we've got it perfect. Far from it. Our very own lovely British government has been extremely busy in stripping our civil liberties from us. I.D. Cards, Law reforms, Stop and Search tactics, Imprisonment without trial, New Police powers and them wretched Mp's and Bloomin Gorden 'wannabe' Brown are busy passing an ammendment to get their Pension raised whilst symultaniously slashing the entire countries. They must have really chuckled over their Gin and Tonics about that one. The're escuse is that it brings the pension payments in line with industry. Well News for you boyo's, Government is a vocation. It's a job you do becasue you care about your fellow man and your country. It's the definition of a job that you do for teh love not the money. But it's not anymore. It's big Business.

So roll up roll up. Come spend your millions at the game show Government. And you never know, you might just win yourself a peerage . . . .

For god sake, someone shut me up. I'm ranting.

[Funnybear]

Na, he is actually working on new stuff. His been doing a few standups around the country to get his act together. I think Ch4 don't cover him like they used to so he's having to go independant on go on tour.

[Madman_CZ]

Every 'demoracy' needs a Michael Moore. We have one. His name is Mark Thomas. Been a bit quiet of late, but's he's working on new ways to severly embarris the government. And boy does he have teh amterial.

You see, thats the thing about the Michael Moores of the world. Governments just can't help but give them all the ammunition they require, those 'documentories' pretty much write themselves. Michael Moore and Mark Thomas et al are very brave men. They fly in the face of the establishment and long may they continue. I am for one a fan of Michael Moore. I'm a fan of his work, his bravery, his erudite wit and his comprehensive unashameded slagging of George 'W' Bush. (Gosh, that super computer that moniters all communication everywhere up on Goon Hilly down must be having a field day with us. Nobody mention assasination. (Shit. I just did) Or Ji Had. (Shit, did it again.) Oil and the Bin Laden Family (God damn) or Pretsils (Awww, I'm going straight to Quantanimo for that one!)) I'm not a huge fan of the man himself, he's big, where's a baseball cap and he's American, but hell I'll let him off just this once. He mat rattle a few cages but hey, guess what, thats the plan! Would the world at large now about the nine minute stare or the Bin Laden flight or the Haliburton bid to control the entire Middle East or the ammended PATRIOT act. Do any of you yanks actually know what is contained in the Patriot Act? Would any of the points that Moore raises have been seen at all? Would Fox show anything bad about Bush and his Cronies? Or should that be the Cronies and their Bush?

Not to say we've got it perfect. Far from it. Our very own lovely British government has been extremely busy in stripping our civil liberties from us. I.D. Cards, Law reforms, Stop and Search tactics, Imprisonment without trial, New Police powers and them wretched Mp's and Bloomin Gorden 'wannabe' Brown are busy passing an ammendment to get their Pension raised whilst symultaniously slashing the entire countries. They must have really chuckled over their Gin and Tonics about that one. The're escuse is that it brings the pension payments in line with industry. Well News for you boyo's, Government is a vocation. It's a job you do becasue you care about your fellow man and your country. It's the definition of a job that you do for teh love not the money. But it's not anymore. It's big Business.

So roll up roll up. Come spend your millions at the game show Government. And you never know, you might just win yourself a peerage . . . .

For god sake, someone shut me up. I'm ranting.

funny how people here just take all the crap the government is giving out... if only people were to realise that they in masses have the real power.. but i guess these days if people say why dont you protest against the government people will just shrug their shoulders and say ahh whats the point..... if thats the kind of attitude everyone has except the very few who can actually be bothered to make somekind of a stand and protest.... I always think that people can change what the governments are doing, no matter what country... people just have to abandon their stupid ways of thinking and actually get of their arse and make a stand otherwise this will keep on going and getting worse. I mean the protest against the war in Iraq was big over 2million people was it? but if you consider the population of Britain 60 million it was a joke! but how many people you ask if they were against the war they will say yes but i bet many stayed at home and didnt join the mass protest........ i mean if you want a example of a protest look back at the Ukraine orange revolution so called.... in the freezing temperatures of Ukraine during snow, night, rain, frost, and all sort of weather people stood there and made a stand and in the end people power won.. the sheer determination of people there was just amazing. Id like to see a Brit stand in the freezing cold outside of anything up to -14C and make a stand... they wouldnt last (sorry for the generalization) this is the reason governments here can do what they want. France was another example last week although that turned a bit nasty thx to the few who just couldnt help themselves to make trouble.

If and when people realise that they have the power and make their feelings known things might begin to change as then leaders would need to take notice but untill then nothing will change.......

btw like the way u spelled "Pretsils" funnybear :D its Pretzels :)

edit* bring on the Revolution......!!!!!!!!

mad

[YUGO45]

Gonna be straight.........

US foreign politics are the meanest and greedeast of its kind (which does not reffer to the citizens). But even worst things happen if countries start su**ing up.

If you wanna see one country that fu**ed up BIG time in ´99 by listening to the yanks type in "NATO.Angrifskrieg" or "Es.begann.mit.einer." in emule.

German TV report

WRD

Film made by: Jo Angerer and Mathias Werth

[Hallen]

Every 'demoracy' needs a Michael Moore. We have one. His name is Mark Thomas. Been a bit quiet of late, but's he's working on new ways to severly embarris the government. And boy does he have teh amterial.

...and them wretched Mp's and Bloomin Gorden 'wannabe' Brown are busy passing an ammendment to get their Pension raised whilst symultaniously slashing the entire countries.
Ah, so there you have it. They already have you by the "attachments". They control "your" money. You are now a slave to your government. You now work for them. You see, the power of the people is lessened by the fact that the people have figured out they can vote themselves money from the government. None of those types want their gravy tray taken away, so they will always vote for the guy who gives them "free" money and won't vote for the guy who would set them free because being free means that you are on your own... "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose".:x OK, I'm done now. :shrug: :pillepall
Group Hug :D

[SamH]

Moore's stuff is the worst kind of one-sided, opinionated, grandstanding with extremely limited grasp on reality that can't be rebutted because it is in the form of a movie. It is a good place to start if you want the longest possible trip to the truth. "Documentaries" is the wrong word to use for his work. One man's vengeful opinion is not a documentary.
Moore's work may be all you say it is. But it's also largely, on film, how non-US world sees you. How the US goes about correcting it is the issue, not whether or not the perception is fair or accurate. It can't be fair, or accurate, and I know for a fact that it isn't representative of the majority of Americans. But that, as I say, isn't actually the issue. "You're wrong, we're not like that" is insufficient.
Do you think a regime run by Nazi's or Saddam would allow any arguing in the first place?
An interesting parallel. I wouldn't have drawn this comparison, but there ya go.
...there is another type of total control regime out there. It is the benign "we will take care of you because you are unable to take care of yourself" regime. This government thinks that you are not smart enough to take care of yourself so the government will wheedle its way into everything you do to the point of even telling you how to think. This is similar to communism. It is designed to help the little guy, but in the end, all it does is control the little guy.
McCartheism is alive and well, then? The US ain't as free as it thinks it is. I don't say this in an unkind way, but I do say it sincerely. The US needs a free press. But before that, it has to realise that it doesn't actually have one now. It doesn't.
Say what you want, but please, do real research first and don't base it off of Moore's diatribe. And don't generalize to an entire population. The US has all types. I have friends that hale from all points on the globe and I am extremely grateful for that.
The world needs more than "don't listen to Moore, he's a jerk". They already HAD a negative view of the US before Moore's documentaries were made. Moore just put some of it on celluloid. US foreign policy is a big problem. It always has been, but today it's acute. Moreover, post-9/11, it's dangerous. Dangerous for us all. Bush Snr was an isolationist, and Jnr is even more so. The current crises couldn't have happened to a worse president, IMO.
And for Rabbi, don't let a couple of punks influence your fun. Ignore them, go to a different server and don't project their stupidity on other people. They are responsible for their actions as you are responsible for yours.
:thumb:

[Fetzo]

well michael moore could not be as "fair and balanced" as fox news, eh? ;).

there are lots of documentaries about the US, the military industrial complex, the iraq war and the plans made for it a decade ago that are far more trustworthy than 9/11 by michael moore.

michael moore is in the first place an entertainer, but that doesn't mean he isn't right in many things. maybe a little "unfair and unbalanced" in some topics :P.

[danowat]

As someone once said, "you can prove anything with facts"

Dan,

[CharlieP]

As someone once said, "you can prove anything with facts"

Dan,

No you can't, and thats a fact! :razz:

[Jakg]

The Stig.Damon hill is not the stig! Perry McArthy & Ben Collins are!

[Funnybear]

Are we still Hugging?

It's just I kinda need the loo.

[RoadRunner]

Hi everyone :)

This is a really interesting discussion for two reasons.

As a german I really know how it feels to get attacked just because of your nationality. “Heil Hitler” and “Nazi **** of” are the nicer comments from this people. All you can do, is to leave the server and wonder how some guys can be so stupid. Idiots live everywhere. The sad part of this story is, that this nazi-comments mostly come from two countrys in the northwest. Funny, that I especially like these countrys most of all european countrys. Fate... ;)

Anyways:

On the other hand it´s also very intersting to have the possility to discuss directly with you americans about the political things, witch are the origin of their problems on the servers.

I really can not understand comments like Infinitis. How can you have such an one dimensional viewpoint to your countrys political actions? Why can a US citizen like Hallen be so confident of the democratic system, while living in a country where it works so bad, worse then in nearly any other country in the world?

America is it's own worst enemy for sure. America's politics are arguable. But that is the beauty of it and other free countries. Do you think a regime run by Nazi's or Saddam would allow any arguing in the first place?

Please stop talking about the USA as a free country. It is all theoretical nonsense! All this babble about the land of the free and the power of the masses is imo absolutly bullshit. It just sounds like a mantra the citizens have to repeat all the time to make themselves believe it. I would be quite happy to say that it´s better in "old europe", but I think it´s a lie on each side of the ocean. We are all media controlled voting livestock. But there is still an important difference: When I look to your country, I see a media industry that was afraid to raise some critical voices against the irak war. That´s a point to get seriously worried about, not just because of your massive military power.

There is a (at least at the second election) regulary voted president who is not ashamed to lie as hell to accomplish his (or his financiers) inhuman politics. A Condoleezza Rice who is lying about the fact, that the us military is torturing innocent people with the knowledge of the government. A Dick Cheney who would perfectly fit to our goddamn NPD party... how can such a man be acceptalbe to your nation? A barefaced Donald Rumsfeld lying to the UN by pretending facts about Saddams weapons of mass destuction. His presentation just made me want to puke. It´s like losing the little rest of faith in the world politics in just a few minutes. And in the end there is a nation legalizing all this by still supporting this government. WTF?

How can a nation be so brainless? Or is it just ignorant?

I saw the movie “Hotel Rwanda” some weeks ago. I can only recommend this film to everyone who doesn´t understand how perverted our “democracy” is. This film establishes the question, how it was possible that the whole western world was looking a bit bored at the genozide where 75% - 90% of the Tutsi were murdered and doing just nothing. The answer the movie gives is as simple as it gets close to the truth: A living african isn´t worth one stupid vote on the next election.
The world is never like the propaganda, the media wants to make you believe. It´s so important to understand this. It doesn´t mean that the press ist always wrong, but it´s always just a small window you are looking through and in the worst case the window grate warps the picture to a lie.

I can highly recommend you to read the speech of Harold Pinter he held after winning the literature Nobel Prize. The interesting part of this speech begins with the following sentence: “Political language, as used by politicians, does not venture into any of this territory since the majority of politicians, on the evidence available to us, are interested not in truth but in power and in the maintenance of that power.” If you are interested in it you might search for this cut. It´s definatly worth the time the reading takes :)

http://www.counterpunch.org/pinter12072005.html


Ps.: I hope nobody feels harmed because of the written, the main reason for it might be my bad english knowledge. :x I hope it´s not to bad, so you understand what I want to say :) And if some things sound a bit rude, they aren´t ment to ;)

[Becky Rose]

I do sometimes wonder, based on events since the Iraq invasion, how Bush got voted back in?

Then I look at Tony Blair still in power, and how i've only ever come across 1 person who voted for him and dozens who didn't.

And I wonder about the noises made in other countries during our elections that there was extreme corruption in our electoral system during the last elections.

And I think of Florida and Callifornia in America where they've had their voting scandals in recent elections.

And I look at all the votes registered by dead people.

And I wonder what the hell democracy actually is.

I like living in a nation where I can say this, the downside is ... after a while nobody takes you seriously anymore.

[RoadRunner]

Hehe, yes but imo it´s very unlikely, that a government has the power to manipulate an election in this way. The only thing they can do is to control our opinions. When you would manipulate the election process itself, there would be to many people knowing about it. On the other hand it´s silly why so many elections are using more and more computers for the voting process itself, for example. There is no need to do it, and it gives the option to tweak the results much easier then with a pen and paper election.

But there is also an intersting thing when you vote in my electoral district. We do not have ballpens for our election or something else that is good for documents, no we use pencils... Oo I mean... WTF? What are they doing, when they are counting the votes? Is the number of sold rubbers significantly increasing in the voting periode? :scratchch ;)

But seriously: I don´t think that manipulation is a big point in that. It works more subtle and most of the things are legal in democracy. And manipulating opinions is the main part about it. It´s just a question of useful open discussion or spreading lies/opinions with the power of the mass media. Besides the US, Italy with Berlusconi is a good example for this, although it works quite different there.

[SamH]

And I wonder what the hell democracy actually is.
I wondered for a moment if that was a throw-away line, but it's such an important one.

We don't have a democracy in the UK, or in the US. We just pretend we do. I'd go as far as to suggest that most of us don't know what democracy actually means. In politics, there are "hoorah" words and there are "boo" words. Democracy is, in our politics and cultures, a "hoorah" word. What that word means, though, is mostly lost on us. And in fact, given the opportunity for a MORE democratic process, we reject it or are too apathetic to fight for it.

That said, the fact that WE don't have a democracy (and aren't determined to get one) doesn't stop us being determined to impose one on another country. One that, culturally, doesn't even WANT it, and also culturally will be incapable of maintaining it. It's a combination of ignorance, which leads us to assert the democracy, and arrogance that leads us to believe it's right.

[wsinda]

Please stop talking about the USA as a free country. It is all theoretical nonsense! All this babble about the land of the free and the power of the masses is imo absolutly bullshit.For freedom, you need to do more than resist the power of the weapons. (That's one of the advantages of living in a democracy: you're not forced to obey at gunpoint.) You also need to resist another, more subtle power: money.

Do you accept commercial television? Be prepared to mistrust anything that is said on those channels.
Do you accept newspapers being owned by a few big corporations? Be sure you have other news sources.
Do you accept political parties being sponsored? Be extra careful who you vote for.
Do you accept search engines being run by companies? Take the search results with a grain of salt.

[Becky Rose]

I'd go as far as to suggest that most of us don't know what democracy actually means
demo = demob = the mob = the people
cracy = control of

I kid you not.

[MARSH2a]

Please stop talking about the USA as a free country. It is all theoretical nonsense! All this babble about the land of the free and the power of the masses is imo absolutly bullshit. It just sounds like a mantra the citizens have to repeat all the time to make themselves believe it.
Really? I think there are about 10-15 Million Illegal Immigrants in the U.S. that will readily disagree. They've all been protesting in many major cities across this country, in the past weeks. Now our government wants to "give them a break". :shrug:

Watch this one closely and see how the "masses" that one political party needs the vote of so much to stay in power affect the LAWS in this country. :scratchch

[Becky Rose]

It's funny, we all hate "illegal immigrants" because "they come to our contry and steal our jobs, our healthcare and our women without contributing a penny!"

Yet actually for the most part the "illegals" are individuals we would not have an issue with.

Just a small percentage are undesireable, a percentage that I would hazard is not too dismilar to the number of undesireables living perfectly legally and without having immigrated.

There are no established nations which do not have an 'immigrant' population, we all arrived wher-ever we are at some point - is it a question of whether it's in the last couple of years or 200 years ago?

My family moved to Ireland in a failed invasion in the Spanish Armada, should I go back now? We moved to England more recently - something about the price of potatoes - maybe it's Ireland we should go back too? In actual fact we where never Spanish, we just lent a hand to the Catholics to crush the infidels - maybe we should go back to Italy?

At what point does an immigrant get to call themselves the nationality that they identify as being? 1 generation, 2 generations?

Sometimes we need to remember that we are 1 species and not 145.

[Fetzo]

@Marsh2a
maybe the government has seen that getting rid of the immigrants would be impossible + not very clever.

they are working very hard. they don't commit crimes ( if they are caught their american dream is over). they are very important for the economy.

but i really like how you ignored the rest of roadrunners post. it's actually the typical way of responding to posts like roadrunner's. i have already experienced that in several forums (especially deviantart, try to say something "bad" about the u.s. there! (zomg)).

we are talking about the picture other countries have of the U.S.. it's more about what the u.s. is doing to the rest of the world, pls don't try to distract.

[RoadRunner]

Hm, that wasn´t my point, Marsh.

Yes, the people normally control in what political direction a country goes. Maybe with a demonstartion, at least when they vote,... But that doesn´t prove that they are free in their decision of what´s right or wrong, or in whitch direction the country should go at best. Your judgement can just be as good as the information you get. And when you are surroundet by wrong facts it´s impossible to get to the right answers.

Edit: Major correction of the first sentence for a better understanding :x

[MARSH2a]

Please don't mistake what I said. I dont hate illegal immigrants. In fact I don't hate much of anything. :)

I only wanted to respond to the power of the masses comment.

I remember a time when numbers of folks in this country protested war, four college students were shot to death by our National Guard, right here in Ohio.

My point is that masses of demonstrators do affect the outcome of political positions on a given issue.

[SamH]

My point is that masses of demonstrators do affect the outcome of political positions on a given issue.
Not "do", but occasionally "may". Public demonstration is not by default an effective way to affect change. Public opinion is more effective in some cases. You could gather every Brit or Yank in a field (if it were physically possible) in their respective nations, have a public vote on any matter, win 100% of the vote and still not have legally made a policy decision or change. We don't live in democracies :)

[colcob]

demo = demob = the mob = the people
cracy = control of

I kid you not.

Sorry, its controlled by.

Ie. Democracy, controlled by the people.

[wes364]

BAH!! who cares!! lets RACE!!

[Rappa Z]

dam i don't want to here about polotics

[Becky Rose]

Lets not race or talk politics, let's get into the semantics of latin :)

cracy, or more correctly "cratia" is literally and meaningfully translated just as government, to work out whether it's context is "control of the people" or "controlled by the people" we need to do away with literal translation and look at the options.

For a "peoples government" we would use "publica" which means "of the people", so democracy in the spirit we take it today would be, "publicacratia" in latin, then probably Englishified into "publicracy".

So why do we use the word democracy instead of publicracy? Because democracy was never meant to be "power to the people", to understand this we must look at the origins of democracy.

When the Greek's conceived the idea it wasn't even "1 person, 1 vote". It was 1 vote for everyone all right, but only people who owned land and tithes got the vote. Oh and you had to be a man of course.

In it's original conception democracy was a way of keeping the mob happy by giving them access to government, the "mob" (should one form) may well have consisted of peasanty - but only because their lords told them to be there.

It's because of this that publicacratia never would have been appropriate as a word, we have democracy instead. Literally people government, but contextually - it's not the "people's government", so in translating to English we need to give it a meaning which is opposed to this whilst not distorting what the word actually meant. We do this by taking it in the context of controlling the people - which is why democracy was chosen as a form of government anyway, simply put - it was the lesser of all the evils they could think of because at least the people (the mob) would be more content.

[Hallen]

Hi everyone :)

This is a really interesting discussion for two reasons.

As a german I really know how it feels to get attacked just because of your nationality. “Heil Hitler” and “Nazi **** of” are the nicer comments from this people. All you can do, is to leave the server and wonder how some guys can be so stupid. Idiots live everywhere. The sad part of this story is, that this nazi-comments mostly come from two countrys in the northwest. Funny, that I especially like these countrys most of all european countrys. Fate... ;)

Anyways:

On the other hand it´s also very intersting to have the possility to discuss directly with you americans about the political things, witch are the origin of their problems on the servers.

I really can not understand comments like Infinitis. How can you have such an one dimensional viewpoint to your countrys political actions? Why can a US citizen like Hallen be so confident of the democratic system, while living in a country where it works so bad, worse then in nearly any other country in the world?



Please stop talking about the USA as a free country. It is all theoretical nonsense! All this babble about the land of the free and the power of the masses is imo absolutly bullshit. It just sounds like a mantra the citizens have to repeat all the time to make themselves believe it. I would be quite happy to say that it´s better in "old europe", but I think it´s a lie on each side of the ocean. We are all media controlled voting livestock. But there is still an important difference: When I look to your country, I see a media industry that was afraid to raise some critical voices against the irak war. That´s a point to get seriously worried about, not just because of your massive military power.

There is a (at least at the second election) regulary voted president who is not ashamed to lie as hell to accomplish his (or his financiers) inhuman politics. A Condoleezza Rice who is lying about the fact, that the us military is torturing innocent people with the knowledge of the government. A Dick Cheney who would perfectly fit to our goddamn NPD party... how can such a man be acceptalbe to your nation? A barefaced Donald Rumsfeld lying to the UN by pretending facts about Saddams weapons of mass destuction. His presentation just made me want to puke. It´s like losing the little rest of faith in the world politics in just a few minutes. And in the end there is a nation legalizing all this by still supporting this government. WTF?

How can a nation be so brainless? Or is it just ignorant?

I saw the movie “Hotel Rwanda” some weeks ago. I can only recommend this film to everyone who doesn´t understand how perverted our “democracy” is. This film establishes the question, how it was possible that the whole western world was looking a bit bored at the genozide where 75% - 90% of the Tutsi were murdered and doing just nothing. The answer the movie gives is as simple as it gets close to the truth: A living african isn´t worth one stupid vote on the next election.
The world is never like the propaganda, the media wants to make you believe. It´s so important to understand this. It doesn´t mean that the press ist always wrong, but it´s always just a small window you are looking through and in the worst case the window grate warps the picture to a lie.

I can highly recommend you to read the speech of Harold Pinter he held after winning the literature Nobel Prize. The interesting part of this speech begins with the following sentence: “Political language, as used by politicians, does not venture into any of this territory since the majority of politicians, on the evidence available to us, are interested not in truth but in power and in the maintenance of that power.” If you are interested in it you might search for this cut. It´s definatly worth the time the reading takes :)

http://www.counterpunch.org/pinter12072005.html


Ps.: I hope nobody feels harmed because of the written, the main reason for it might be my bad english knowledge. :x I hope it´s not to bad, so you understand what I want to say :) And if some things sound a bit rude, they aren´t ment to ;)

Democracy, or whatever label you want to put on it, has it's problem in the US, but it certainly works.
Secondly, nobody is truly free. However, Americans are free to choose a whole lot about how they want to live their lives. I think that is true in a lot of nations now.
The thing you don't understand is this: It is ALL an illusion. It is just that we, the people of this world, CHOOSE to believe in it and make it work. We have to because the alternative is total chaos. There is no "Them", only individuals working together trying to maintain order and stability.

Our press is more free than you know. They are the cause of many of our greatest woes and greatest achievements. They definitely have a political agenda, both left(mostly) and a few on the right. They choose on what to report, and they often choose to report only what they want us to hear. It is their freedom to do so. Free press does do damage, but it is damage that we willingly absorb. The image that you may have of American politics is greatly influenced by that same media. It is a very negative picture of the US. Most of it is overstated and made to be more damaging than it really is. Life here is not perfect, but it is good. My point is, do not let what you hear and see in the popular media override your common sense and view of the world. They paint a bleak picture that does not represent the truth very well.

And what you say about our media being afraid to take a stance is simply misinformed. Our media has railed against the war and against any military action against terrorists or anybody else for years. There have been protests here, and continue to be protests over America's involvement or lack thereof in international affairs.

I also don't understand how we get blamed for genocide in Africa and for sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong at the same time. Either we are a world player and we try to do what is right, or we ignore the rest of the world and let whatever happens happen. The latter is the definition of isolationist, BTW. And nobody, from any other nation, can stand back and say that their countries' international policy is not affected by politics, money, and power because it is. However, I do believe that for the most part everybody wants to try and do what is right. America is a great nation of people who are for the most part benign and want to help.

Oh, saying "How can a nation be so brainless"... would be considered rude in most places. :D

[Becky Rose]

ok politics it is then. :thumb:

America's foreign policy is as bad as Britains, but without it we'd all have been speaking Russian by 1950.

Given the choice of being the invader it is always better than being the invaded. I can understand how the countries we tred on feal, but hey ... I got a decent PC and lots of nice consumer goods so ... screw 'em, frankly.

As long as I keep my head in the clouds and refuse to believe that my country could possibly be guilty of excercising totallitarian authority with 7.62mm's of force then how could I possibly feel strongly enough to change anything?

The days of imperialism have passed, we're more educated now, if we where really causing harm abroad then surely somebody would have done something. We have safeguards against that type of thing because we are a moderate and free society.

This forum post is a reflection of the postee's opinion about Western national sentiments, and not actually an opinion in itself. It may require a level thought to understand that is beyond the people it is referencing, in which case, have a plate of national pride with a side order of patriotism.

[JohnPenn]

Its the human condition ,wish we could evolve a bit quicker :)
Now back to our regular program.

John

[Racer Y]

Hey Roadrunner.... Y"all Germans still get nonsense about Hitler?
Geesh. My father-in-law fought in WW II. He fought alongside Aussies in New Guinea before getting wounded. Then they sent him back to the States to
guard German POWs. He told me that they had to separate the SS troops
and officers from the rest of the prisoners. The SS would have gotten killed
if put in General Population. But as a combatant, he knew that the magority of the German People wasn't like the Nazi stereotype you've had to deal with.

I know Politics discussions aren't really allowed here on these forums (am glad this one is though:) ) This one really seems to have some sort a intelligent posts
that are a good read.

Oh yeah another thing RoadRunner...If you don't want Cheney as our V.P.,
then YOU tell him... We seen what happened to the last guy that tried...

One thing thats going on here right now in the US is the illegal immigration issue. I know it's a problem with most of the industrial nations, but not like here.
The big problem with this Bill, is that it's stupid. and that's whether you want tighter border controls or not. Most people, including the polititians that are to vote on it, don't fully understand it.

As for all these youths protesting the bill, Have you heard any of their comments on it? What they seem to be protesting? They really don't understand it & I think most were just using it as an excuse to cut class.

I dunno, something really needs to be done about illegal immigration, but not with that Bill.
I think if leftward thinking minds didn't make it stumble or short-sided
capitalist that couldn't see past their bank accounts didn't mis-manage it,
NAFTA would have gone a long way to alleviate this problem we got now.

[Speed Soro]

Dear Weiss,

The replay you send me was evaluated and surely there are no excuses to the terrible behavior from those guys.

The replay has been posted in our forum and the reaction has been variable in accordance with the relationship with the subjects and their ages.

Some people here are kids yet, not the case of this guy that are around 18+, but this kind of behavior does not reflect the general behavior of the brazilian community, be sure. We have greats names here, whith great respect from the LFS international community, such as Mogar, JS, Luiggi, and many others.

I have no power to punish them, but the large exposition in our forum caused a big effect in our community, so we hope facts like won't occur anymore. Of course we have no way to avoid this, and we have no conditions to supervise the kids out there.

When you see a server called Brazil, BR or something like that, be comfortable to come in and play with us. Just ignore that stupid happening, cause that was an isolated case.

Best regards,

Silvio Camolesi
Vipers do Brasil LFS Team

[Hallen]

^^^^^And there is the perfect ending to this thread. ^^^^
Good stuff guys, lets RACE :D

[SamH]

:heyjoe67_ :thumb:

[MARSH2a]

:thumb::thumb::thumb: