Season 2010: Balancing

[dekojester]

Hello Racers and Teams:

Here is the official car balancing for the 2010 Grand Touring Amateur League.

FZR 20%
FXR 23%
XRR 24%

UPDATE Oct 29: XRR has had its ballast removed. It now is required to only run 24%.

This is subject to change should a patch come out mid-season. For now, we will be taking this route.

[fadeaway]

Considering XRR is more fragile (example last igtc race - 2/3 DNFs are XRR, very good teams), it stucks in sand, it flips easily on high curbs, shorter races than in moe (so fuel advantage is less important).. with 25% XRR is out of competition.

[Flingoko]

25% on the XRR are too much. 20%-22% would be more fair. The XRR arent the at all the fastest car on track, at least if you dont know how to drive it. And we have to remember that this isnt MoE, but GT"amateur"L. Not all are the best drivers.

Just my opinion :)

[Deutschland2007]

25% on the XRR are too much. 20%-22% would be more fair. The XRR arent the at all the fastest car on track, at least if you dont know how to drive it. And we have to remember that this isnt MoE, but GT"amateur"L. Not all are the best drivers.

Just my opinion :)

The XRR is the only one that can run R2s all round without a problem (unlike FXR and FZR) and it´s not using that much fuel either. 20% wouldn´t be enough, I´d go more for what deko has put up there. Either 25% or 24% or 24% with a small weight penalty. Still don´t think that many will actually use the XRR of the FXR to be honest.:shrug:

[Tomhah]

24% with kg's or 25% in my opinion, because of the reasons stated above. :)

[arrowkart4]

24% would be much better fzr clearly has the edge at most tracks, with the exception of we1.

[3j_uni]

Scipy has done some serious testing with quite some fast people and he says 25% is the best balance over the whole stint. You can't get perfect balance for all cars, fzr wille be quicker here, xrr there.

Apart from that, you have to concider some other aspects apart from pure speed like fuel and tire consumption (which is better on the xrr) sequential shifter (fxr, xrr) etc. The biggest problem is the xrr getting stuck in a gravel trap, but you can't balance that as it's a clear driving error.

// We had this discussion also in MoE (thats why it took us so long with the balance). In the end you have to trust a few really stupidly fast people (over a longer distance) running several different settings and not the teams driving in the league as harsh / mean that might sound. :D //

[boothy]

Who the hell are you? :razz:

I think 24% is best, just to be different from MoE. :D The FXR was 23% last year, so maybe even make that 22% for a laugh and see what it's like.

[N I K I]

that's right boothy, let's punish FZR for nothing :thumb:

[boothy]

For nothing? The FZR owned the other cars at each track with the previous restrictions (currently the MoE ones), so taking 1% off the FXR and XRR would be a good move.

[fadeaway]

The XRR is the only one that can run R2s all round without a problem (unlike FXR and FZR) and it´s not using that much fuel either.

On BL1r it can't run on R2s.

24% would be much better fzr clearly has the edge at most tracks, with the exception of we1.
:thumbsup:

[Sir moi 407]

We have seen enough races to know that with 25% the XRR is clearly worse than FZR (GTAL 2009 and MOE 2009)
I mean... you just can't deny this! The XRR can flip, has turbo lag, worse COG...
Tires are a big problem with the GT2 version of this car too... On the tracks like AS4 you CAN put R2 but you have to be very careful if you want to. I'm not even talking about other tracks like WE1 or FE4 where doing a race with R2 is nearly impossible do you have to put R3 with a very low pressure which is bad in the straights...

[MoMo92i]

hum...restriction, always a problem ^^

FXR with 23% is quite fast ! Just have to check Ceskomasai from R2R ! He is as fast as MoE aliens with it ! XRR with 24% will be so fast in AS4 or WE1 ! I think the best is to put some kg on FZR ;)

[N I K I]

For nothing? The FZR owned the other cars at each track with the previous restrictions (currently the MoE ones), so taking 1% off the FXR and XRR would be a good move.
how about, maybe noone pushed xrr and fxr to their limits

[Wilko868]

For nothing? The FZR owned the other cars at each track with the previous restrictions (currently the MoE ones), so taking 1% off the FXR and XRR would be a good move.
I second that.

[racer hero]

FZR 20%, FXR 23%, XRR 24%, lets go racing..

[J@tko]

Personally I'd rather have the XRR pwnting than yet another FZR FTW League.

[Arm0]

FZR 20%, FXR 23%, XRR 24%, lets go racing..
I agree with you:thumb:

[PMD9409]

FZR GT2 *can* run R2s on selected tracks, just like XRR can on selected tracks.

Want to try something different?

20, 22+15kg, 24+15kg

24% alone has proven to be faster than FZR at KY3, but that's also because it was running R2s unlike the FZR that was tested at 20%.

With that +15kg don't plan on running R2s.

@Niki: Lets see you push it to the limit then. :razz:

[Wilko868]

FZR GT2 *can* run R2s on selected tracks, just like XRR can on selected tracks.

Want to try something different?

20, 22+15kg, 24+15kg

24% alone has proven to be faster than FZR at KY3, but that's also because it was running R2s unlike the FZR that was tested at 20%.

With that +15kg don't plan on running R2s.

@Niki: Lets see you push it to the limit then. :razz:
I'm liking the theory Phil. Worth a test at least..........(hint hint, Jack :razz:)

[racer hero]

I'm liking the theory Phil. Worth a test at least..........(hint hint, Jack :razz:)

Lets have some decent drivers test it...

[Tomhah]

I drove myself up from being a lap behind top 10, in 24th position with FXR, and drove myself up to top 10 (I think I was 8th or 9th?) with FXR... It wasnt much slower... my fastest lap was .1-.2 behind the fastest time set by spdo (if I remember correctly, at least when I was at the track), so the FXR is more than competitve (at least on SO). The FXR is also way more easy to drive, so imo it should stay at 23%. And I agree with Niki and Scipy (and the guy who had talked with Scipy etc?) Last year, there wasnt any competitive teams in the XRR, and thats the main reason why it didnt win. 25% might be too harsh, what do I know, but 24% will be too less again... So 24% with kg's maybe? Or 25% as MoE. There must be a reason for why MoE kept 25%, right?

[dekojester]

Not that I don't trust the MoE decision, I just have a desire to make sure we've done what we can do.

Anyone who is interested in helping run some of these settings next week or at this weekend, please post here or PM me. We'll work something out. If you want, just put on some of the following and run a bit, preferably as close to a full stint as you can.

FZR 20%
FXR 23%
FXR 22%+15 kg
XRR 24%
XRR 24% + 15kg
XRR 24% + 10kg
XRR 25%

If you decide to run on your own time, that's fine, just send me an mpr or spr with your run. Fell free to try multiples on the tracks for this season.

May try to do an organized test session next week if enough can commit.

d

[N I K I]

@Niki: Lets see you push it to the limit then. :razz:
My driving style got totally adopted to FZR over the years and I'm not such talent to change that over night. So when I come to the corner I use FZR brake / accelerate points, instead of earlier and more oversteery turbo lagged car points. Even if I set my mind to change this, it still isn't fast enough.
I'm not too worried about this, since I've been enjoying FZR the most since ever.

[GianniC]

FZR 21%
FXR 24%
XRR 25%

I have no scientific or practical basis for this, however when I read it out loud in my mind it sounds very neat and balanced.

:smileypul

[HVS5b]

Oh come on. The FXR is so piss easy to drive it should have its restriction increased not decreased :shrug:

XRR does need a tweak tho, imo.

[N I K I]

We tested FXR on ky3 a little bit today and imo it could get done [get the setup done] to have it loosing 15 sec per hour [that's with 23%] compared to FZR with 20%.
XRR [with 25%] has the same pace as FZR, it just can do few laps less [still the stint is 1 hour long], because it uses R2 / R2 tires, unlike FZR which is using R2 / R3.
Now extra laps aren't really needed in GTAL aren't hey?

All this is for KY3 with boothy's layout. So the track has 3 slow corners and 4 fast ones now, apart from million of those flat-out corners. Therefor it's a good place to get base balancing done.

[Sir moi 407]

Look at MOE.

[racer hero]

Look at MoE qualifying. First GT2 XRR with 25% is a second and a half slower then the top FZR.

[Tomhah]

look at the drivers :P

[Sir moi 407]

look at the drivers :P
True, only the XRR-lovers (Core Racing :) ) took the XRR... Nobody wants it with 25%, it's too slow ^^

[Tomhah]

well, its not THAT much slower.

[Deutschland2007]

well, its not THAT much slower.

But it´s still not fair

[racer hero]

The drivers are top quality...the car is too slow. Should definately be 24.

[MoMo92i]

+1 !

FZR : 20%
FXR : 23%
XRR : 24% !!!

Let's race !

[DeadWolfBones]

Trust me, it's too fast at 24%. That said, I'd like to see how Phil's idea would work out.

[J@tko]

After seeing MoE Qual, I'd say that 20/23/24[possibly +kg] is the way to go.

We'll have a chat about it and get it to you ASAP. If we need to, we can use the Test Race to confirm handicaps. If they are changed after the Test Race, you will be able to change your car without penalty. [not that you actually have anything to be penalised with... :P]

[Sir moi 407]

Trust me, it's too fast at 24%.
Trust me, it isn't, at all.
It will be faster in some tracks, slower on other tracks.
Faster in WE, slower in SO. That's how it should be...

EDIT: And just so you know I'm not saying this for me but for the championship, E-Team is probably going to drive the FZR again.

[fadeaway]

So what if its even faster with 24% (not saying it is)? It's more dangerous to drive it(sand, blah blah), so it should be faster, IMO. :shrug:

[PMD9409]

Round 1 - 14th November: 3 Hours of Blackwood Grand Prix Reversed (BL1R)
Round 2 - 12th December: 3 Hours of Kyoto GP Long (KY3) w/Boothy chicane
Round 3 - 30 January: 3 Hours of South City Long Reversed (SO4R)
Round 4 - 27 February: 6 Hours of Westhill International Reversed (WE1R)
Round 5 - 27 March: 3 Hours of Fern Bay Gold (FE3)
Round 6 - 10 April: 6 Hours of Aston Historic Reversed (AS4R)
Round 7 - 1 May: 12 Hours of Kyoto National (KY2)

XRR @ 24%
1. even
2. XRR
3. FZR
4. XRR
5. even
6. XRR
7. even

XRR @ 25%
1. FZR
2. even
3. FZR
4. even
5. even (maybe FZR)
6. FZR (not sure, could be even)
7. FZR

So.. obviously there is a big change between 24 and 25. The thing that makes XRR quicker is that it can run R2s. If it ran R3s at 25% it would get eaten alive. So if it runs 24% it will have a small advantage on straight, but at the same time add 20kg to make the car use R3s. So it might have a small straight advantage, but FZR will have a slight advantage in the corners.

[Flingoko]

sounds like 24% is most fair, considering the numbers ^^

[AstroBoy]

MoE results are over the course of 1 lap vs 1 hour. The fastest car isnt always the best over all.
But i havnt a clue about balancing so yeah i guess if there was a option for 24.5% we would be set :D

Also i personally i wouldn't be surprised if people drove the FXR seeing as its a amateur season the FXR is the easiest to drive, hint.

[Tomhah]

24% with kg's with 20 or more, or 25% is my cents.

[GianniC]

True, only the XRR-lovers (Core Racing :) ) took the XRR... Nobody wants it with 25%, it's too slow ^^

SCCC is going to race with the XRR in GTAL, simply because our skin looks cool on it :razz: Anyway, we are no Core Aliens and we will not be as fast as Core in that XRR. Seeing the results of the MoE and such I'd say that XRR 24%+10kg is the best option for us amateurs in GTAL and it might make some other teams pick the XRR as well instead of the"no brainer FZR choise" (cause that's one of the minor objectives of the rebalancing, isn't it ?!).

[racer hero]

24% with kg's with 20 or more, or 25% is my cents.

You don't give any information to your choices, you just want the FZR to win for whatever reasons you have. FZR CAN run R2's at some tracks, so putting 20 kg on the XRR will give it a disadvantage at the tracks that the FZR can run R2's.

24%+10kg is probablly better to make it so XRR has to run R3's at some tracks, but has a posibility to run R2 at some tracks aswell.

[Tomhah]

Ist because the XRR is too powerfull with 24%. I dont want total domination, and you should know that, as Im a pretty much XRR fan. 24% will be XRR domination, which I dont like. 20 kg's will make the car a touch slower, and more trouble with the tires. Remember, Kenneth, XRR SHOULD be a bit slower than the FZR, as it has more advantages, but not too much, and not equal in pace.

[GianniC]

What exactly is left of those extra advantages of a XRR in "only" a 3 hour race ?
This is GTAL, not MoE.

[luki97]

In FZR you can drive R2's very fast in Qual but on most tracks in race FZR use R3's. XRR i think can drive most tracks on R2's in qual and race too, so in Qual FZR is little faster but in race most teams use R3's and its lower grip and other driving style to save tyres. In XRR you drive little slower but on R2's and you have more control with it.

[Tomhah]

What exactly is left of those extra advantages of a XRR in "only" a 3 hour race ?
This is GTAL, not MoE.


There are 6h and 12h races this season.

[Deutschland2007]

There are 6h and 12h races this season.

But most are 3 hours long.

[Tomhah]

4 our of 7, yes. But that doesnt change the fact that XRR takes shorter pit-stops, does it?

[Lombardi]

look at the drivers :P

:thumbsup:

GT Amateur League

[Tomhah]

:thumbsup:

GT Amateur League

I pointed out that the XRR drivers in MoE most probably wouldnt have taken pole if they were "just as fast" in the FZR as they are in XRR. At least, thats my bet :P

I know MoE did searious testings on the balance this year, and they found out that 25% res on the XRR was a fair balance. They have had it two years in a row, and there must be a reason, aight? I know they have tested it, probably more than any of us, with different drivers, and thats why I trust the 25% desicion.

I trust NDR's desicion whatever it is, and wont argue, unless they choose something COMPLETE idiotic, which will never happend. :P

[Sir moi 407]

4 our of 7, yes. But that doesnt change the fact that XRR takes shorter pit-stops, does it?
Ok let's be clear, you gain 3 secs in pits with XRR, that means 6 secs in the race. You can use R2/R2 in FZR if you are smooth... just like the XRR so this ain't an advatage/disadvantage.
You will never see XRR domination for 1%. Even if the XRR was a little bit faster with 24%, that wouldn't be a problem because:
- It can flip really easily compared to the FZR
- It can be stuck in sand

The perfect balance doesn't exist, but when you look at MOE you see that 25% is far too much for XRR.
Just compair GT1 (with a good balance) and GT2 (with a bad balance).
Yes, MOE GT2 balances ARE actualy bad.
These are facts that nobody can deny...

[Tomhah]

- It can flip really easily compared to the FZR
- It can be stuck in sand
I rather drive the fastest car, because I dont flip or get stuck in the sand:smileypul

[pearcy_2k7]

Look at MoE qualifying. First GT2 XRR with 25% is a second and a half slower then the top FZR.

That doesn't mean anything, im a second off pole atm in the same car! scipy's crew have that combo hooked up, thats all it is. I say stick pallu in XRR with a good set and see what he does or ray, MoE is turning into a lets make things fair for core fest, suck it up, you chose the car, just like some teams chose FZR in GT1.

[AstroBoy]

- It can flip really easily compared to the FZR
- It can be stuck in sand
I rather drive the fastest car, because I dont flip or get stuck in the sand:smileypul

Well you have to ask yourself what are you doing in the sand to begin with. And flipping well thats a diffrent matter, both of these *cons* dont need to happen if the driver doesnt take any detours or put themselves in a position for this to happen.

Why not have the XRR with 24% +13kg? i just wanted a random number.

Theres also the option of putting more a restriction on the FZR and FXR to balance it out, might make it slower but more even. But no evidence to back this up.

[bunder9999]

sorry for the slight OT, but why do leagues put the FZR into the same category as FXR/XRR? they're not even in the same base class... instead of trying to balance the two RWD GTR's, why not drop the FZR completely and solve the balancing issue? :shrug:

[Deutschland2007]

sorry for the slight OT, but why do leagues put the FZR into the same category as FXR/XRR? they're not even in the same base class... instead of trying to balance the two RWD GTR's, why not drop the FZR completely and solve the balancing issue? :shrug:

That´s like trying to switch the internet off: impossible

[Tomhah]

^^

Well, I can drive XRR as said, as I like that car :P So I wouldnt really mind :P

[Deutschland2007]

^^

Well, I can drive XRR as said, as I like that car :P So I wouldnt really mind :P

I can drive all, but FXR is hateful, and we don´t want to drive the FZR. XRR is my favourite anyway <3:D

[hyntty]

Quite much offtopic coming:

(Concerning a post in this thread) If someone for a reason or another has a duplicate account here, in this case one to be used while the man is at university or summin please don't report the post unless it actually somehow offensive.

It is a) quite annoying to get such spammail. Yes, I get the notification as well.
b) quite petty behaviour.

[DeadWolfBones]

Trust me, it isn't, at all.
It will be faster in some tracks, slower on other tracks.
Faster in WE, slower in SO. That's how it should be...

EDIT: And just so you know I'm not saying this for me but for the championship, E-Team is probably going to drive the FZR again.

I'll trust you when I see data you've compiled to rival the data we accumulated in MoE balance testing.

[Sir moi 407]

I don't know what testing you did... In fact we don't even need tests to proove that 25% isn't fair.
Only thing you need is to take a look at past MOE and GTAL season... Lots of races that proove that FZR has an unfair advantage.
Can you realldy deny this? I'm curious to know why do you think there was no XRR at all the last MOE season? If people didn't like the XRR, then why there are so much in GT1 this MOE season?

[CSF]

Simply people will choose the fastest car for the balancing. This year that is the XRR. In GT2 in our case we had setups for the FZR with that balance, why bother making new sets for the XRR?

[Tomhah]

exactly. And its not the XRR's fault that it didnt win much, its the drivers. You cant say that the XRR is bad, simply because of results, when 1/20 of the teams uses XRR.

[Sir moi 407]

Simply people will choose the fastest car for the balancing.
exactly. You cant say that the XRR is bad, simply because of results, when 1/20 of the teams uses XRR.
:tilt:

[Tomhah]

if the cars are balanced, you dont need to choose the fastest car, but the one you like most :P

Note: and most of the guys like FZR most :P

[J@tko]

Thank you for your input guys. We've clearly heard from both sides of the fence and so I'll close this until we make our decision.

I hope to clear this and choose the successful applicants in an NDR MSN meeting tonight [who needs expensive conference facilities?!]. The skin packs have been done, and I would think that d will distribute those tonight if we indeed have made our decisions by then.

There will be a test race before the end of October, most likely around a track that is NOT in the season calendar. Duration/track/more information will be put out to you as soon as we have sorted it out.

Hope to see you on track soon

Jack :)

[dekojester]

Official balancing posted.

[dekojester]

Thread opened, ballasts there for at least testrace (I lied slightly in OP). We may reduce to 24% flat if we deem at the testrace that the XRR is still underpowered. We would highly appreciate some teams taking the XRR for the testrace to help test this.

To that end, AS6 WILL STAY as the test race combo, as we belive it is a course well suited to both types of tracks, with its slow and fast sections, giving us a good reading on how ballasting is working.

d

[Tomhah]

cant wait :)

[dekojester]

After seeing the performance of the cars in the test race, we have removed the ballast on the XRR. It now must only carry 24% intake restriction.

FZR and FXR seemed to be all right. Remember, you are not locked into car choice until your first qualifying session of the season. The Test Race does not count.

We hope the 20/23/24 is a sufficient number to allow all cars a fair chance at a decent number of circuits.

d

[fadeaway]

After seeing the performance of the cars in the test race, we have removed the ballast on the XRR. It now must only carry 24% intake restriction.


:thumbsup:

[ivantod]

omg,decision based on 3 xrr's who were in a test race.....

[J@tko]

omg,decision based on 3 xrr's who were in a test race.....
Does that not give us a good basis for a decision? :tilt:

[Wilko868]

omg,decision based on 3 xrr's who were in a test race.....
Yup, that's about right :)

[TexasLTU]

omg,decision based on 3 xrr's who were in a test race.....
+1.
Probably 2009 is the year of poor non-sense balancing in all leagues with GTR's. :(

[AstroBoy]

omg,decision based on 3 xrr's who were in a test race.....
Lol yes we XRR are pwnage :P haha, but the FZR is clearly the best GT2 car true story, no complaints though, i always enjoy a challenge :D

[J@tko]

Well last year the XRR was off the pace with 25%, so we gave it 6 extra bhp, and hopefully it will be less off the pace. Whats wrong with that?

[ivantod]

off the pace with 25%???
Check last race 6h of KY3r,with good setup and good driver (me) i was on pace,untill i get DT after 45 minutes.

[J@tko]

off the pace with 25%???
Check last race 6h of KY3r,with good setup and good driver (me) i was on pace,untill i get DT after 45 minutes.
Gdgd.



The XRR should be fastest there anyway
The XRR is widely regarded as being harder to drive than the other cars therefore should be slightly quicker
If you think the XRR is so much quicker, then use just use it instead of the FZR :tilt:

[ivantod]

1.Why?
2.Why?
3.I drove last season with xrr,and that's enough from me :)

[J@tko]

1.Why?
2.Why?
3.I drove last season with xrr,and that's enough from me :)


Because its a fast, flowing circuit where the turbo lag and poor weight distribution make less of a difference than for example South City.
Everyone would complain if we made the FXR as fast as the FZR :shrug:
:tilt:

[ivantod]

ok then,let it be :)

[z-ro 8]

Everyone would complain if we made the FXR as fast as the FZR :shrug:

not everyone ......:D

[J@tko]

not everyone ......:D
Haha I'd agree with that actually :D

[VTiRacing]

Lol, XRR pwnz now.

[fadeaway]

Gdgd.



The XRR should be fastest there anyway
The XRR is widely regarded as being harder to drive than the other cars therefore should be slightly quicker
If you think the XRR is so much quicker, then use just use it instead of the FZR :tilt:


1. exacly
2. exacly
3. :)
And all that things are multiplied in "amateur" league.


Everyone would complain if we made the FXR as fast as the FZR :shrug:


10.65 on bl1r, as always, its crazy fast there (in hl :D)

[z-ro 8]

Haha I'd agree with that actually :D

all joking aside......the task of balancing these cares is a subjective one. there are so many variables to consider, how do you find a common ground? not easily that's for sure......

i guess the best thing is to just take what you're given, and try to get the best result you can.....

[luki97]

10.65 on bl1r, as always, its crazy fast there (in hl :D)

damn... its a perfect lap or its normal HL lap?

[fadeaway]

well pretty strong hl, spb 10.49, i think it can go even lower

[luki97]

i dont practice more last time but at the moment i think XRR is faster 0.1-0.2s (maybe).