GTi vs GT and FXO vs GTT unequallity...

[Chaos]

This has been there since the days of S1 (FXO vs GTT)... Isn't it time to reward the drivers that take the harder car to drive (rwd) with better times? In S1 times everybody said wait till S2 when new suspension model comes, after the first S2 demo, I hoped that a better tyre model that will make them more equal... This has not happened, on the contrary GTi was given more HP bringing the unequality to the lower class too. You don't see a single GT on the track in demo and now on all tracks except the oval a fwd car is faster than rwd and in my opinion this is just wrong... There is no possibility to make a league with a choosing a car from a class. Everybody just takes GTi or FXO if they are given the choice and I would love to make a league where different cars appear. Is the driver not that experienced he takes the FXO and he doesen't have to worry much about keeping his car on the track, while at the same time the one who has the balls takes the GTT, wrestles with it and is rewarded by better times...
What do you think? I'm I right or completely out?

EDIT> Almost the same thread back on RSC (http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=132811)... over 2 years old...

[eraser_svk]

I completely agree with Chaos, in every race in demo, nobody choosed XRG (expect Chaos :) , because that car is slower and it is harder to control. And when everybody drives the same car, it dont look very well...
In present time, Chaos is organizing LX4 league - where I learned a little bit to drive RWD cars and when that league would not exist, I would be driving FXO(in turbo class), XFG (in XFG/XRG class) forever... because those cars are fastest in-class and easiest to drive...
The only con of FXO now is overheating front wheels, and moreover that can be fixed by good setup...
I wish to see in future versions of LFS weaked FXO, XFG , for example less horsepower or open diff, or something else...
When will be FXO/XRT/RB4 eqal, it will be great look on various cars on start field... and better expierence to drive

[Vain]

I do choose XRG. But only when I'm against XRGs. ;)

Vain

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Yes.

Maybe the updated physics will affect this? :scratchch:

[Chaos]

Maybe the updated physics will affect this? :scratchch:
Well I hoped for this 2 years ago (see RSC link in my 1st post) and it did not happen... exactly the opposite happend... in S1 the GT was faster than the GTi

[Jakg]

i was about to say "i know someone who uses the XRG, its ZT Chaos!" but then i saw you were the poster, and yes, i see what you mean, but then again, i think that the demo should have the XRT removed, and replaced with something that newbs wil find easier to handle!

[MadCatX]

In OffTopic there was a thread about FWD/RWD/AWD. Some people said there that RWD cars arent done properly in LFS at the moment. IMO is the biggest problem that "oversteery" physics - some time in RWDs is lost in drifts(or in drift avoiding). In FXO you can simply floor the throtte at the Blackwood chicane, in XRT you have to do a liftoff on the exit. I am not skilled in the driving physics too much, but in FWDs you can apply more throtte in the turns, especially on the exits - and that gives you more advantages than understeery behaviour in actual LFS physics.....

[Chaos]

In FXO you can simply floor the throtte at the Blackwood chicane, in XRT you have to do a liftoff on the exit.
You dont have to, but you have to get your line spot on!:schwitz:;)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

In OffTopic there was a thread about FWD/RWD/AWD. Some people said there that RWD cars arent done properly in LFS at the moment. IMO is the biggest problem that "oversteery" physics - some time in RWDs is lost in drifts(or in drift avoiding). In FXO you can simply floor the throtte at the Blackwood chicane, in XRT you have to do a liftoff on the exit. I am not skilled in the driving physics too much, but in FWDs you can apply more throtte in the turns, especially on the exits - and that gives you more advantages than understeery behaviour in actual LFS physics.....

Well, driving the FWDs like that should burn out tires pretty fast. Aiming them and pulling the trigger (understeering the crap out of them) should wreck tires pretty fast. Since the steering / driving forces are split with a RWD car it should inherantly be faster for longer, but a touch harder to drive. I bet this is why the FXO is lighter than the XRT (more than it even should be with the fewer drivetrain components), so that it would be competitive... But they haven't found the proper balance yet.

[eraser_svk]

...but FXO is still faster than XRT (like an XFG is faster than XRG...)
just a few more HP's for XRT can make it competetive to FXO

or making FXO weaker can do it :thumb: (and front tyres will be less burned)

[MyBoss]

FXO is still the fastest even with tires reaching color code Red (heh)

[MadCatX]

FXO is still the fastest even with tires reaching color code Red (heh)

Yes, I think it also. Only in longer races(25 laps?) are possible problems with overheated tyres.I have a set for FXO that brings tires to red in 5-6 laps, but after it, i still can drive better times than in XRT

[maczo]

1. gti vs gt
I have a feeling that the power correction for the gti was based on the bl1 times, where the loooong straight made most of the difference for the gt. On the other tracks though, the two cars were pretty close, and although I admit that gt had majority of the wr's , I think that was OK because it was a tad harder to master.

2. fxo vs gtt and rb4
I've got one simple solution (I think): reduce the fxo's tire width. Voila.

[MyBoss]

Yep, and its much easier to be consistent with the FXO contra the GTT, GTT is one of the hardest cars to drive fast AND consistent. GTT is really hard to just drive fast with to, and in imo only the best can drive that car in long distance races without doing some spinning.

I think the GTT will be a little easier with the new patch, not so weird to drive in low speeds, and better when youre driving on the limit.

[MadCatX]

reduce the fxo's tire width. Voila.

Yes, that can be a solution, FXO has more grip than RB4, XRT... Got a point Mazco:thumb:

[WGooden]

I wouldn't mind some organized races with only the gt or gtt, since you never see them online and they are actually fun to drive.

[Chaos]

I wouldn't mind some organized races with only the gt or gtt, since you never see them online and they are actually fun to drive.
yup they are, but only a minority of drivers likes them and the rest has no need to even try them since they are slower... and why don't you see them online? because most people (in demo) dont bother bother driving the GT (GTT in demo is another story, since its the only faster car, but on licensed servers where the TBO class is allowed, its almost always FXO), why should they when the gti is faster... i organise races for those without license and they just ignored the GT, maybe drove a few laps but had no motivation to learn it properly...

[eraser_svk]

...exactly

[Hallen]

I had a league race with a choice of the GT or GTi. I of course chose the GT, a car that I am very familiar with from S1. I lapped it hard, progressively improving my lap times.
I posted my hotlap for grid position, and I noticed that everybody else drove the GTi and was getting much faster times than me. I am normally mid-pack in this league, but I was near the bottom with the GT.

I broke out the GTi, and after a few laps I had smashed my PB with the GT. I was able to post a time so that I was at my normal mid-pack starting position.

The point of all of this is that I know how to drive the rwd cars. I like rwd cars better. My LX4 time on FE1R is 45.6x. Not too shabby.
But, the GTi is so much faster than the GT, you have to drive it in races that allow both or you will not be competitive.:shrug:

[_rod_]

I also agree with that, i used to race a lot with the gt, but now its not even funny, or doesnt make up the hard time you get driving it right versus lap time against the gti. I Would love to have the gt/gti competion back. Lets hope with this new patch the RWD will be better to drive with.

[Chaos]

Lets hope with this new patch the RWD will be better to drive with.well i have hoped for over 2 years now...

[ORION]

Before the GTI improvement, the GT was (iirc) over one second faster than the GTI. Now the GTI is a bit faster... But this was only caused by those weird setups with Hybrid tyres on the rear. If you use normal road tyres on both cars, the times should be equal.
Well, FXO has always been too fast, thats absolutely true.
Also, the RB4 has a strange suspenrion limitation, that makes it jump weirdly on all curbs. GTI has the same problem btw.
Many cars cant even touch the ground with their undertray, which is REALLY silly. Who cares if the tyres go through the Body?

[Gabkicks]

well i have hoped for over 2 years now...
well it did get alot more fun to race rwd cars once s2 came out imho.

the next patch is supposed to take care of alot of suspension/tire issues.

[Chaos]

the next patch is supposed to take care of alot of suspension/tire issues.
the s1 > s2 physics upgrade should have done it, the s2 tyre patch should have done it and yet no results, so i'm a bit sceptical...

[maczo]

Before the GTI improvement, the GT was (iirc) over one second faster than the GTI.

What kind of statement is that? 1 sec faster at FE Club and 1 sec faster at FE Black? I have a hunch you mean Blackwood GP... Am I wrong?

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

the s1 > s2 physics upgrade should have done it, the s2 tyre patch should have done it and yet no results, so i'm a bit sceptical...

What S2 tire patch was that??:Looking_a

[Chaos]

What S2 tire patch was that??:Looking_a
if i recall correctly about a month after the first S2 demo was released... i think it had to do something with temperatures on gravel and also some tweak for tarmac...

[spankmeyer]

Did you know the FXO has the widest tyres of the turbo class? Wider tyres = more grip = faster times. Or the FZR being only GTR car without handicap-o-bonus aka turbo. I'm really puzzled why there are such differences within car classes when logic says those kind of features cause nothing but unbalance.

[ORION]

What kind of statement is that? 1 sec faster at FE Club and 1 sec faster at FE Black? I have a hunch you mean Blackwood GP... Am I wrong?
Yea Blackwood :)
I should have said that sry ;)

[Chaos]

Did you know the FXO has the widest tyres of the turbo class? Wider tyres = more grip = faster times. Or the FZR being only GTR car without handicap-o-bonus aka turbo. I'm really puzzled why there are such differences within car classes when logic says those kind of features cause nothing but unbalance.
yup I noticed the wider tyres on the FXO (front and rear same, while the GTT has only the rear tyres that wide), but when playing around with mecanik I found out that is seems that tyre width does not effect grip so much as I think it should (although I might be wrong...)

[sinbad]

Well I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I think balancing cars that are fundamentally different for ALL circuits is impossible, and balancing them so it evens out across all circuits is as much down to changing circuits as it is to changing cars. Maybe not a lost cause, but not too far from it if you want cars to be genuinely close and evenly matched.

I would rather see cars made to be entertaining in their own right, not fiddled with and compromised just to give another car a good race on one circuit out of 2 or 3. I'm sure we'd all agree the RB4 could be a lot more fun than it is, and maybe it would get used properly then too, rather than it being constantly the 3rd choice in a "class" for 95% of racers.

[Chaos]

Well I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I think balancing cars that are fundamentally different for ALL circuits is impossible, and balancing them so it evens out across all circuits is as much down to changing circuits as it is to changing cars.....
I don't say make them exactly equal, this is virtually impossible, but now there is not a single track (oval doesn't count) where the rwd IS faster... it's all fwd ownage and that is just not right... :shrug:

[eraser_svk]

I think weaked FXO about 5HP and only open diff on it will make it eqal to XRT...

[Pablo.CZ]

I don't say make them exactly equal, this is virtually impossible, but now there is not a single track (oval doesn't count) where the rwd IS faster... it's all fwd ownage and that is just not right... :shrug:
Agree.. and problem is, if next patch will be final physics update for S2 stage without possibility to test it before, maybe this fwd ownage will be there for next year too :(
I think weaked FXO about 5HP and only open diff on it will make it eqal to XRT...
And what about RB4? IMO cars in 1 class should have similar diff constraints..
-?5?hp yes, only open diff no

[PerG]

Agree.. and problem is, if next patch will be final physics update for S2 stage without possibility to test it before, maybe this fwd ownage will be there for next year too :(

And what about RB4? IMO cars in 1 class should have similar diff constraints..
-?5?hp yes, only open diff nobut what it will make we dont know now and i think if it will be way to worst racing, there will be another patch which will make it different again like this month

[Pablo.CZ]

but what it will make we dont know now and i think if it will be way to worst racing, there will be another patch which will make it different again like this month
physics update = need for deleting all hotlaps => i dont think there will be any other physics updates in near future to balance cars again..

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

No, changing car specs afterward can suffice if needed.

[maczo]

Yea Blackwood :)
I should have said that sry ;)
But gt being 1sec faster on BL GP means nothing, because of the long straight, where it gained the most. I remember that in S1 there were a few tracks with gti WR's better than those of the gt. My opinion, but I think many will agree, is that the differences were small enough to consider it fair, because gt is harder to control.
Now there is 1 (ONE) WR by gt better than gti (three if you count oval+oval rev).
My opinion is the change was an overshoot. A big one. :(

[Takumi_Project.d]

the problem here is when the s2 alpha demo was out people complained that the GTI wasnt able to keep up with the GT at blackwood.

But what people were forgetting is the GTI had never been able to keep up at bw!! when on other tracks they would almost be even in laptimes.

so in effect ~close to eqaul times on blackwood means the GTI will annihilate the GT everywhere else, as BW always used to be the biggest margin.


XRG is my favourite car but i will admit it can't keep up.

i can practice for a few days on a certain circuit until im close to the XRG WR, and at the start beat new people who join the server in GTI's, however within 10 minutes of them going around and settling into the track already they keep up or beat me, its just that much easier to get the GTI upto equal speed.

if i think of S1, the GTI could have used an extra 2hp or something, because they were ALMOST even back then on most configs, now its just been blown out of the water

[ORION]

In the alpha demo, the GTI was absolutely not competive, even a rather slow GT driver could easily win against the GTI world record driver, because the GT was one second or more faster, and additionally it was much faster on the straight.
Effectively the difference was far more than 2 seconds...

As I said before, remove the Hybrid tyres and GTI vs GT is equal again.

TBO is another story

[eraser_svk]

I dont think so...Only removing HYBRID tyres will not make those car competitive... In September 2005, Fabio made about 1,31,9x with XFG, and with NORMAL TYRES in front and back of car...
And 1.31.9x vs. 1.32.37 is still so wide difference to competition...

I think the fixed problem with weird-hybrid tyre setups and decreasing about 4-5HP from GTI should make those car competitive again...

[Bob Smith]

I think the fixed problem with weird-hybrid tyre setups
As has been pointed out before, that is actually quite realistic (unlike every other "exploit").

[Jakg]

the problem here is when the s2 alpha demo was out people complained that the GTI wasnt able to keep up with the GT at blackwood.

But what people were forgetting is the GTI had never been able to keep up at bw!! when on other tracks they would almost be even in laptimes.

so in effect ~close to eqaul times on blackwood means the GTI will annihilate the GT everywhere else, as BW always used to be the biggest margin.


XRG is my favourite car but i will admit it can't keep up.

i can practice for a few days on a certain circuit until im close to the XRG WR, and at the start beat new people who join the server in GTI's, however within 10 minutes of them going around and settling into the track already they keep up or beat me, its just that much easier to get the GTI upto equal speed.

if i think of S1, the GTI could have used an extra 2hp or something, because they were ALMOST even back then on most configs, now its just been blown out of the wateri really dislike blackwood as a proving ground, as all of the laptimes are focused on the first sector due to the long straight, secondly i think the XRG should be faster (only slightly) so that on the straight it will be able to slighly out power the XFG, and keep up with the XFG round the twisties