Full Track Maker!!

[sileighty]

i'm not sure how unreasonable this idea is because i'm sure it would be a hard thing to make but how about a full track maker? you can select a plot size, elevation changes, road, dirt, etc. you would be able to place anything to make a fully customized track. about a week ago i really got into making autocross tracks and this is something ive been dreaming about. the autocross and carpark are just not big enough to make fun tracks. the object limit also tends to get in the way. i'm not even sure if it would be possible since the servers lag with only 512 objects... if there was an entire track with scenery and everything i don't know if it would even be playable. not sure how impossible this would be but it would be GREAT!

[Vain]

There already s such a tool. But it's only on the dev's computers. You'll have to wait a year or two before it is released to the public.

Vain

[sileighty]

aww that sucks. :( i can't wait for that to come out.

[MorroW]

No, please no!

If such a tool will be release...same what happended with rF repeats.
Lot's of low quality tracks with few people racing...lot's of servers with "homemade" tracks etc.

Not a good idea if you want full grid race...drivers just will be splited all around different servers.
Well, they are aleady...but this will make things wors.

If ever developers want to release such a tool...maybe only for few people who can make proper track.

At least in my humble opinion :)

[Qurpiz]

You have to find another game. I recommend GeneRally.

[sgt.flippy]

Yup, when I read this, first thing on my mind was GeneRally! Easy to set up different types of surfaces, great pitting action, AI ain't to stupid, and it runs on every computer, even at my school! And it's sooo realistic. :tilt:
Seriously, that game is a blast for a little while.

And about track making, if you want to take it online, I wonder how long it'll take to download all those tracks. There will be a lot of dumb tracks, although this might clear the path to a bigger city/driving tracks, wich I would like. But I don't think it'll happen anytime soon.

[filur]

No, please no!

If such a tool will be release...same what happended with rF repeats.
Lot's of low quality tracks with few people racing...lot's of servers with "homemade" tracks etc.

Not a good idea if you want full grid race...drivers just will be splited all around different servers.
Well, they are aleady...but this will make things wors.

If ever developers want to release such a tool...maybe only for few people who can make proper track.

At least in my humble opinion :)

But, wouldn't logic suggest that drivers who enjoy racing other people will join up on certain servers anyway? Would custom tracks erase the entire league / organized competition scene?

And since this is pretty sure not to happen before S3 final, will it really create the same atmosphere as rF? (complete game vs. mod-this-incomplete-game)

IMHO, if the devs decide after S3 final to never release any editing tools, it's basically like they're saying "we could prolong the life of LFS and attract more newcomers even if the game is getting a bit old, but we won't."

[Vain]

But, wouldn't logic suggest that drivers who enjoy racing other people will join up on certain servers anyway? Would custom tracks erase the entire league / organized competition scene?No, but the 'open LFS and join some server'-type of playing, which is one of the attracting features of LFS. It takes about 30 seconds after you decided to race until you are connected and on the track. That just won't be possible with mods, custom tracks, new cars and edited physics-packs.

Vain

[AndroidXP]

And then there's always the idea of dev-quality-control. Users may create content, but only content that meets the dev's standards may be released and unlocked for MP. No shitty "lol-5000hp-GTi-with-huge-wings" addons, but only high quality stuff that is on par or better than the original content.

[GT Touring]

well it works very well on GPL and Vroc
get a standard track (Silverstone GP, Spa, Monza etc.) and how many will be released? GTL has had a very controlled track release and every on eis on the same ones. Perhaps LFS can implement a DevThumbsUP rating to have tracks listed as Official- if more than 2 people make Nurburgring, and the devs or a team as assigned get to choose the final version, with LFS proper logos added and the seal of approval. It is an extra step but this ensures 1. Quality control, 2. devs don't get overloaded by the work by having an assigned team for track submissions (and ofcourse the team would be dev chosen)
3. a standard dwonload location i.e. LFS web site for approved releases, and patches.:scratchch

[filur]

It takes about 30 seconds after you decided to race until you are connected and on the track. That just won't be possible with mods, custom tracks, new cars and edited physics-packs.

Completely a question of system design, not a global fact.

[keiran]

i'm not sure how unreasonable this idea is because i'm sure it would be a hard thing to make but how about a full track maker? you can select a plot size, elevation changes, road, dirt, etc. you would be able to place anything to make a fully customized track. about a week ago i really got into making autocross tracks and this is something ive been dreaming about. the autocross and carpark are just not big enough to make fun tracks. the object limit also tends to get in the way. i'm not even sure if it would be possible since the servers lag with only 512 objects... if there was an entire track with scenery and everything i don't know if it would even be playable. not sure how impossible this would be but it would be GREAT!

tbh I would have thought such a system would be very difficult. Pretty much all games use 3D modeling tools and export them from there as far as I know.

Keiran

[Becky Rose]

To make a high quality track involves more time spent on the scenery than the track itself, it's the scenery which adds life to the track and gives it character and soul.

Making 3D scenery is a specialised skill and not something that everyone can do, and learning the tools to make it takes about 2 years on average (if you have the technical aptitude to actually grasp it) to get a solid understanding of the way they work and the limitations and differences between the modeller and the game engine. You can expect to be another 2 years getting good at it after that, assuming you have the artistic aptitude that is.

It's most likely that the in-house tools comprise a 3d format exporter for their chosen modelling program and possibly a small utility for rigging the 3d model and setting collision zones and game data interactive elements (such as 'if a wheel touches here make a sand particle emit from the wheel' [that might also be zone with heirarchy data]) and editing the basic AI driving line.

[filur]

Making 3D scenery is a specialised skill and not something that everyone can do, and learning the tools to make it takes about 2 years on average (if you have the technical aptitude to actually grasp it) to get a solid understanding of the way they work and the limitations and differences between the modeller and the game engine. You can expect to be another 2 years getting good at it after that, assuming you have the artistic aptitude that is.

And as in many areas involving artistic content, sometimes less is more, and a simple track such as falkenberg (http://www.nornemark.com/falkenberg/screens.html) can be brilliant.

[Gimpster]

nKPro has an interesting solution to the quality issue of user created content. Charge for the dev tools. Only serous modders will pay the cost and ensure quality content is released.

[Woz]

nKPro has an interesting solution to the quality issue of user created content. Charge for the dev tools. Only serous modders will pay the cost and ensure quality content is released.

Hope it works. I am not going to touch NKP until tintops get released so I hope its soon.

But after the rF farce on mods/car and tracks I hope the tools are such that only dedicated people that understand game content can create mods. Content suffered loads of issues such as poor quality, poor conversions, far too high LOD so you get slowdown or just didnt support features in the game properly.

The solution is probably have devs charge a content submission fee but allow the content to carry a paypal donation email addy so if people like the track they can donate to author so they produce more.

People will only submit content they know is good if it costs them to do it. But possibility of rewards if you get enough donations from community

[colcob]

It's most likely that the in-house tools comprise a 3d format exporter for their chosen modelling program and possibly a small utility for rigging the 3d model and setting collision zones and game data interactive elements (such as 'if a wheel touches here make a sand particle emit from the wheel' [that might also be zone with heirarchy data]) and editing the basic AI driving line.

As far as we understand, LFS is made entirely with custom built tools. A few times Scawen has referred to spending some time working on functions for the modeller for Eric.

So for them to release tools to the public, they'd either have to write new converters/utils from scratch or brush up the in house tools to a release standard. Neither of which are small jobs.

The other option of course is to just release the file format specifications along with S3 and let the community write the tools.

[v4forlife]

no one would be fast on any track, as people would make a track, race it for a week, then a new track would come along and the other one would be forgotten etc.

just let the devs create the tracks, and we will worry about......something

[FallenReaper]

no one would be fast on any track, as people would make a track, race it for a week, then a new track would come along and the other one would be forgotten etc.

just let the devs create the tracks, and we will worry about......something

Nobody said anything about tracks being forgotten. I really doubt that people would forget any high quality good tracks. Yes maybe a newer track might come along but there will be that percentage of people that still use the old track. A track download system would be pretty good, and its just about inevitable for any game that is modify-able to not have people create low quality things for that game. Competitions will get more diversity as I'm sure the community will only use the best, and most high quality type of track for their competition. It is not like where if sombody makes a track that you HAVE to drive it and such. Relation to Counter-Strike, people still play some of the older maps that is created for that game along with the new ones and after a while their minds will memorize every detail. A track editor can correlate with steam games in a very important part.

[kwijibo]

Allowing custom maps never hurt FPS games. Most people just stick to playing the originals anyway, and only the top shelf custom maps make it into the rotations on servers. I cant see how this would possibly hurt LFS in anyway, but since we already know its not going to happen til after S3, no point moaning just yet :)

[Takumi_Project.d]

the day lfs is open to modding is the day i leave! :thumb:

[sileighty]

i'm sure lots of ppl would still play the other tracks... making new tracks would just be for when your a little bored of the ones provided. if everyone were to go off and start making tracks then ya that might cause a bit of a problem... i'm not sure how it'd effect the game exactly...

[CHR20000]

complete crap...simulation, freax n fans, ...i dont think u can go out on any racetrax in the world, maybe 4 a dayracing or smthg (dont remember right word, hope u understand) and say: hey, lez cut it here, get this part of the corner elvated and so on... i think we all are comfortable with the given trax n cars.... btw...the stats pages and mhr, hlranking and so on would expand 2 blow up...:pillepall :x

also, this would make it necessary to change game code massivly, as the trax we´re driving @ atm, are generated on client side, only preferences, like weather and so on, are downloaded from masterserver (i hope i got that right in mind...)

[filur]

..i dont think u can go out on any racetrax in the world, maybe 4 a dayracing or smthg (dont remember right word, hope u understand) and say: hey, lez cut it here, get this part of the corner elvated and so on.

Um?

i think we all are comfortable with the given trax n cars.

Very much so, but why oppose the opportunity of new ones at some point.

also, this would make it necessary to change game code massivly, as the trax we´re driving @ atm, are generated on client side, only preferences, like weather and so on, are downloaded from masterserver (i hope i got that right in mind...)

New tracks would change nothing apart from a way of integration and needing to be encrypted/locked from demo users.

[Goresh]

I know alot of ppl who won't even consider buying LFS S2 just for the very fact it can't be modded. Even myself these days, I find the current tracks quite boring, not saying this in a bad way, I've just driven them to death. As a result LFS has sat untouched in months. IMHO its modding that makes or breaks a game, and I really hope the devs don't listen to the small group of closed minded, anti modding fools.

[JJ72]

that's very nice from you. :/

[keiran]

I know alot of ppl who won't even consider buying LFS S2 just for the very fact it can't be modded. Even myself these days, I find the current tracks quite boring, not saying this in a bad way, I've just driven them to death. As a result LFS has sat untouched in months. IMHO its modding that makes or breaks a game, and I really hope the devs don't listen to the small group of closed minded, anti modding fools.

Driven the tracks to death, you got all the WRs for all the track/car combos ? I highly doubt it. I'm constantly learning while I play LFS, I never feel that I've gone as fast as possible.

The reason I don't like modding so much with online games as it hurts the online experience big time. rFactor is the perfect example, mismatches caused by slightly different files and versions. Community can't resist playing newly released low quality mods and then the older ones begin to go unused.

For modding to be successful there needs to be a lot of thought put into how to implement it to be as user friendly as possible. The beauty of LFS is I can be racing online within seconds, no need to go troll through RSC looking for the new version of a track/mod that everyone is playing.

I can't understand how you can say modding can make or break a game. When I've looked at race cast (rFactors stats) the most players online has been roughly 60 while at that same time there is at least 400 on LFS. So if modding makes or breaks a game then rF designed for modding seems to be struggling in the online department.

Keiran

[Becky Rose]

Driven the tracks to death, you got all the WRs for all the track/car combos ? I highly doubt it
He said he's bored of them, not that he's Annakin Skywalker.

[Vain]

I think there is also concern about crackers when talking about custom content for LFS.
Imagin the situation:
Someone cracks LFS, plays the game in singleplayer and gets bored with the slow AI. What to do now? Either delete the game and never again play this great game or buy it and have fun online. Good as is.
Now put custom tracks into the scene.
Instead of just either leaving LFS or buying the license mister Cracker just downloads 20 new tracks and plays LFS in singleplayer for another half year without considering the license.

So what I'd suggest is a online-validation of custom content. Custom content is downloaded via liveforspeed.net using your account-details, verified within LFS using the master-server and your license and only then loaded.
That means it is impossible to use custom content without a license. But is is also impossible to use custom maps without a internet-connection.

Vain

[Goresh]

Ya modding sucks, you all need to wake up and smell the coffee. It amazes me how RF is the big comparison. Why not justify your point using another title, say, GPL, or F1C?? Easier to point out a game that sucked from the very beginning instead of looking at anything else. While your stating LFS should not be modded, why not also crusade to have all templates removed from the web, god knows I've gotten some good skins while racing online, but 90% of them are crude, and not up to the LFS standards.

[Becky Rose]

I am in favour of modding as I myself would like to make a few tracks. I even emailed Scawen to ask if he'd let me and to talk about tech details but I got no reply :(. I envisioned a scenario where i'd make something and it would get included as if an official map, but I think I didn't stress enough it would just be a contribution and not something i'd want money for !

Quality is a huge issue in modding, and yes it's destroyed some games. Likewise it's spawned some games too ... Day of Defeat by Das Jurgen and his crew for instance.

When it comes to quality the bottom line is you're always going to see both ends of the scale the moment you open it up and charging for the tools to abuse the game really isn't the answer, it's just an excellent way of fleecing your users, frankly.

My hope is that all mods would be limited to single player upon release and only useable in multiplayer with dev/mod approval.

[keiran]

Ya modding sucks, you all need to wake up and smell the coffee. It amazes me how RF is the big comparison. Why not justify your point using another title, say, GPL, or F1C?? Easier to point out a game that sucked from the very beginning instead of looking at anything else. While your stating LFS should not be modded, why not also crusade to have all templates removed from the web, god knows I've gotten some good skins while racing online, but 90% of them are crude, and not up to the LFS standards.

No experience with GPL but F1c now that game is just as bad as rFactor. I've never out of a week of trying managed to have a race in a public server. Always finding mismatches and having no idea what authors version I'm looking for.

I never said LFS shouldn't be modded, read my post. I said it needs to be done properly and not a stupid system like most games leaving the user high and dry trying to find mismatches. Just like anything in life it should be user friendly.

@Vain
The problem I see with the content being available via the devs is licenses. I don't think the devs could realte themselves to the content but they could put a system in place with a disclaimer that they aren't responsible for what the users post :razz:

Keiran

[Rappa Z]

Generally is the best for track making.

[Pablo.CZ]

What do you think about this:
anyone who want create some real track would have to have permission/licence from track owners and real track data. With this, he'll get tools from developers. After devs approval (and digital signature) track can be downloaded and used in MP.
Fantasy track could make only devs.

Sorry for my english.

[keiran]

What do you think about this:
anyone who want create some real track would have to have permission/licence from track owners and real track data. With this, he'll get tools from developers. After devs approval (and digital signature) track can be downloaded and used in MP.
Fantasy track could make only devs.

Sorry for my english.

The problem is I doubt anyone in this community could afford a license to create a track. The big companys like EA and Codemasters are the competition in the bidding for the license :shrug:

Keiran

[Pablo.CZ]

The problem is I doubt anyone in this community could afford a license to create a track. The big companys like EA and Codemasters are the competition in the bidding for the license :shrug:

Keiran
Yes and no. Many tracks owners can give licence (if the sim is perfect as LFS is) for free as promotion of their track. I think czech comunity is probably able to have licence for Most http://www.autodrom-most.cz/eng/index.php

[keiran]

Yes and no. Many tracks owners can give licence (if the sim is perfect as LFS is) for free as promotion of their track. I think czech comunity is probably able to have licence for Most http://www.autodrom-most.cz/eng/index.php

I still think along the lines of, "nothings free in this world." Great if you can get permission for some tracks but you are not going to get permission for any of the tracks on the F1 calendar and most likely any of the tracks used by the MSA BTCC.

The only tracks that will do it as a promotion are the small tracks that aren't well known, well thats what I think :)

Keiran

[Rappa Z]

no track editor. too crazy.

[sileighty]

you guys are making this into such a huge deal. getting into huge companys and buying a liscense to make tracks? come on this is getting stupid. all i wanted to do was make a track for me and my friends or anyone else who wants to drive on it.

it seems this idea will never work out since everyone wants to make tracks. the only way i can imagine it working is if each account was only allowed 1 track. if you wanted to make another track you'd have to clear the track you have now and make a new one... but even then.. even if everyone was only allowed 1 track that could still be hundreds or thousands of new tracks. =/

[Becky Rose]

Definately not because that way the few skilled artesans would have their wings clipped and we'd still get a lot of low quality tracks.

I think home-brew tracks should be single player only unless authorised by the LFS team into the full game. It would be nice to have an exception for LAN gaming and also a 3 or 4 player connection for 1 license when LAN gaming.

[filur]

Definately not because that way the few skilled artesans would have their wings clipped and we'd still get a lot of low quality tracks.

I think home-brew tracks should be single player only unless authorised by the LFS team into the full game. It would be nice to have an exception for LAN gaming and also a 3 or 4 player connection for 1 license when LAN gaming.

All suggestions concerning the devs authorizing something etc. fails to note that this means an "authorized" addon track falls under the devs actually selling it, which doesn't really work legally.

it seems this idea will never work out since everyone wants to make tracks.

Really doubt that, think of making a track as something a hundred times more complicated and time-consuming then making a skin, and there's lots of racers who can't even be bothered making own skins.

[sileighty]

well i know making layouts for the autocross area and modifying tracks isnt exactly as hard as making my own track from scratch but ive made about 15 good ones in the past week. i find it fun making tracks and would only look forward to using a full track maker to make my own track from scratch. maybe the time consuming process would turn others away from doing it. maybe not as many tracks would be made as we are thinking. or maybe people would half ass their tracks and just make a whole bunch of bad ones. but if people made bad ones then no one would play on them anyways... i dunno i hope something works out so we can have the track maker...

[Gabkicks]

No, please no!

If such a tool will be release...same what happended with rF repeats.
Lot's of low quality tracks with few people racing...lot's of servers with "homemade" tracks etc.

Not a good idea if you want full grid race...drivers just will be splited all around different servers.
Well, they are aleady...but this will make things wors.

If ever developers want to release such a tool...maybe only for few people who can make proper track.

At least in my humble opinion :)

they should charge money for the devkit like nK Pro is going to do. :) that way only the serious track makers will shell out the money for the program... (or download the cracked program:()

[wheel4hummer]

i'm not sure how unreasonable this idea is because i'm sure it would be a hard thing to make but how about a full track maker? you can select a plot size, elevation changes, road, dirt, etc. you would be able to place anything to make a fully customized track. about a week ago i really got into making autocross tracks and this is something ive been dreaming about. the autocross and carpark are just not big enough to make fun tracks. the object limit also tends to get in the way. i'm not even sure if it would be possible since the servers lag with only 512 objects... if there was an entire track with scenery and everything i don't know if it would even be playable. not sure how impossible this would be but it would be GREAT!

You just made a "wrong post"