GTAL: New Management Introduction

[dekojester]

Hello racers !

I figure that since I'm now a moderator of the section, it's alright to make this announcement and post. Advance apologies for this long post, but hopefully it can convey most of what I want it to.

I am the Chief Race Administrator of New Dimension Racing, and we are pleased to report that the GTAL admins of Season 1 selected us to continue on this promising series. We accept this offer, gladly, and will work to make GTAL as great as it possibly can.

For those who don't know us, New Dimension Racing are a team of 5 (errrr...now 6) LFS members: Jack "J@tko" Atkinson, Joseph "JO53PHS" Ellis, Thilo "TFalke55" Falkenberg, Timo "hyntty" Hynninen, Chris "wilko868" Wilkinson, and myself, Jonathan "dekojester" Palmer. We started as a team in the beginning of 2008, and started with the LFS Beginner's Cup. Since then, and our very dismal Kyoto 250 in March of that year, we have grown and honed our skills immensley, and now seem to have gained a good reputation in the community, which we intend to keep. Our current list of events that we run (excluding GTAL) are: LFS Beginner's Cup, Kyoto 250, Kyoto 500, LFSCART, LFSCART Light, and MiniFBM Series. We also hold occasional special races, mostly of a 2h Endurance variety. This year's Kyoto 500 had over 100 signups, and over 40 drivers attempt to qualify for the 30-car field. We take our job seriously, and do our part to make opportunities for racers to race.

We plan to run GTAL as a Winter Series, to reduce conflicts with our other events, and with all the events that run in the Summertime. It will follow the same general calendar consumption as MoE generally does, operating with actual rounds from November until March/April. We classify our events based on the year they complete. So, if a season runs from 2009-2010, it will be Season 2010. So therefore, the next season of GTAL will be called "GT Amateur League 2010"

I wish to hear from you, the participants and interested parties, your thoughts on what should come for the 2010 Season. We have already had some internal discussions, but before we make anything official or announce anything, we want to see what you all have to say. Anything is open to be commented about for what you would like to see in 2010 Season. We will go through everything and make sure that as many loopholes are close.

We request that you keep the discussions here civilized and clean. The first season is done, and there is no need to ressurect past arguments. We do not want a flamewar. No attacks to anyone. Anyone doing any attacking of any sort to anyone will have the offending content removed. We desire to see a clean, and respectful discussion.

We have a rather simple credo/motto/stance at NDR, that's not really officially written, but it's understood by most who participate in our events:

We at NDR will strive to provide the best racing experience possible, and will do everything in our power to make the racing as clean, friendly, and safe as possible. Our plan will only truly suceed if the participants in the race follow the rules, after having come to a working understanding. We as Administrators only have so much control. Ultimately, an event's sucees or failure is down to what the racers do on race day. We do not demand respect, we prefer and know that it is earned. The same is held for the drivers. We will respect you and give you our trust when you prove that you deserve it. We do not wish to, nor will we ever wish to be "The Mean, Power-Hungry Race Administration." We want to see fair, clean racing. Racers who fail to do their part to make an event a success lose any rights to expect constant nice actions from the admins, we then have the right in that case to pass judgement on any incident(s). We don't hold grudges ever, we don't single people out without probable cause. We will always, regardless of what happens, treat you in the fairest manner possible. If all drivers do our part, and all admins do their part, then the ultimate goal we strive for is a safe, competitive, and most of all, FUN event for all.

That's it. That's not even really still anything official, as the credo/stance changes with the environment, but that's the jist of it. It's close enough to official.

We want to see friendly competition, we want to see racers doing the best they can do. So, with all this in mind, tell us what you think for Season 2010, as well as any general comments you have about NDR. We'll answer any questions. The only authoritative responses will come from the two main honchos of NDR, which are myself and J@tko. Other members of NDR will come in I'm sure, but expect only official word from me or J@tko for the time being. We'll sit back and look at what you have got to say, then we'll come in and answer. We want to hear your side first.

Thank you all for continuing to participate in LFS, without you, there would be no need for us. We thank you, and hope to see you around.

Sincerely,
Jonathan "dekojester" Palmer
Chief Race Administrator
New Dimension Racing

EDIT by J@tko: Rulebook link http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=91132&d=1251285409

[fireb0llch]

Great news! Good luck in GTAL 2010, maybe we are in again ;)

One Question: Will there be any broadcasting in GTAL 2010? The final broadcasting Round in GTAL 2009 was very good.
Cheers!

[dekojester]

One Question: Will there be any broadcasting in GTAL 2010? The final broadcasting Round in GTAL 2009 was very good.
Cheers!

We will consider broadcasting as we get closer to the time. For now, we will focus on what needs to be done to prepare for the racing: Rules, Restrictions, Applications. But yes, we will look at broadcasting, something we do with several of our events.

[pacesetter]

OLD news! :D... Well I'm glad you guys took over, good adminning, and you stick to the initial rules :)

[ivantod]

good luck !!!

[Kristjan.J]

Best of luck deko and NDR.

[tiagolapa]

I wish you good work. Keep it up

[oldnavy]

Gl and looking foward to next season :)

[TexasLTU]

OLD news! :D
+1 :D

Good luck guys! :)

[evilpimp]

Good to hear. :)

[Sir moi 407]

Good Luck NDR and thanks to the old organisators for the work they have done ;)

[CrAZySkyPimp]

NDR is a bunch of really fair guys. GTAL 2010 will be superb for everyone involved.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

OLD news! :D

Without me you wouldn't have been aware of that that early so:shhh::D


Hey, good luck NDR btw, I'm sure you'll fit really well for the job:)

PS : Will we have SCs?

[J@tko]

;1236859']
PS : Will we have SCs?
Oh come on Yann :D

Deko's in charge, of course there will be SCs lol :razz:

[Deutschland2007]

Oh come on Yann :D

Deko's in charge, of course there will be SCs lol :razz:

You´re driving the rescue car then J@tko, right?:tilt:

[evilpimp]

On paper it will be written J@tko as SC I bet. But for real, he has dinner. :)

[dekojester]

On paper it will be written J@tko as SC I bet. But for real, he has dinner. :)

No, we'll have someone else to SC.

:P

[z-ro 8]

We at NDR will strive to provide the best dinner experience possible, and will do everything in our power to make the eating as clean, friendly, and inconvenient as possible. Our plan will only truly suceed if the participants in the race understand we gotta eat, after having come to a working understanding. We as Administrators have so much hunger. Ultimately, a dinner's sucees or failure is down to what the racers do on race day. We do not demand gravy on our tators, we prefer to know that it is earned. The same is held for the drivers. We will respect you and give you our leftovers when you prove that you deserve it. We do not wish to, nor will we ever wish to be "The Mean, Power-Hungry Biscuit Hog." We want to see fair, clean eating. Racers who fail to do their part to make a dinner a success lose any rights to dessert. Constant nice actions to the admins are expected when we ask you to pass the ketchup.. We don't hold forks ever, we don't say excuse me when the gas just won't stay in. We will always, regardless of what happens, treat you in the fairest manner possible. If all drivers do our part, and all admins clean their plates, then the ultimate goal we strive for is a full belly, dry pants, and a decent nap.


Sincerely,
Jonathan "dekojester" Palmer
Chief Race Administrator
New Dimension Racing

seriously tho, i know that NDR will make the GTAL as much of a premier league as the MoE and others.
good luck deko and crew, and to all the participants in the future seasons.

regards,
k.m.

[Deutschland2007]

If they would eat that often and that much they´d all be fat and after some time get a heart attack and die.:really:

[pacesetter]

;1236859']Without me you wouldn't have been aware of that that early so:shhh::D





Shhhhh :D

[dekojester]

seriously tho, i know that NDR will make the GTAL as much of a premier league as the MoE and others.
good luck deko and crew, and to all the participants in the future seasons.

regards,
k.m.

:D:razz:

You fail havoc. :P

d

[z-ro 8]

:D:razz:

You fail havoc. :P

d

yes i do, but only when i try to turn right.....

[dekojester]

Thanks for the compliments and good luck wishes, but I'd still like to see some things you'd like to see changed or think should be. It'll be still a couple weeks before we have a provisional rulebook out.

d

[oldnavy]

Premier Amateur league? :D Cool :D

[HVS5b]

Thanks for the compliments and good luck wishes, but I'd still like to see some things you'd like to see changed or think should be. It'll be still a couple weeks before we have a provisional rulebook out.

d

Good to see you guys getting involved :thumb:

I've raced in a couple of your events and always found them well managed.

Changes/alterations/comments:

1. It would be good to see fuller grids.
2. We need more 6hr races, not just one at end of season. Maybe a 12hr finale?
3. I liked the no MoE/IGTC drivers rule. Gives the rest of us half a chance.
4. Would you consider the introduction of a push car/safety car?
5. Can the season be longer than 5 races pls? Although one a month was good spacing.
6. The restrictions should be the same as MoE GT2.
7. Will teams who raced in season 1 be given priority in the sign up? I can see this being MUCH more popular this time around.
8. Glad you're moving it to winter, far too many nice summer evenings spent in front of my PC....
9. The race end procedure should be followed or scrapped from the rules.

:thumbsup:

[SabersKunk]

I think you can expect Fubar Racing to sign up for season 2. Glad to have you guys on board :)

[ivantod]

Please also define rule no MoE/IGTC drivers.

If someone starts in GT Amateur League 2010,and have no MoE/IGTC races,and in the middle of the GT Amateur League 2010 season,driver have debut in MoE/IGTC,can he continue GT Amateur League 2010 season or not.

Will teams who raced in season 1 be given priority in the sign up?

I would like this,and would also like that teams who raced in season one have numbers from season one general standings (example,SCP finished first season on 6th place,in season 2010 they would be #6 Serbian Chromed Pistons).

[J@tko]

We're not really commenting on what will/won't be in the series at the present time as we're still discussing it internally, but I thought I'd say some words on the subject of the following:

I liked the no MoE/IGTC drivers rule. Gives the rest of us half a chance.

Personally, [and I would think I speak on behalf of NDR here] I want to see big grids full of the sort of people this series was intended for. The problem isn't [we hope :P] the big grids, but who is this series intended for - does the fact that a driver competed in an IGTC Race mean that he can't race in this?

Consider the following:
In the IGTC there is a good mix of big, well established teams aswell as some smaller, maybe national teams. Take an example of a smaller team with 5 members, and a much bigger team such as Sonicrealms. [sorry to single you out here guys!] Say you needed 4 members for one of the races in the IGTC, and one of the guys from the smaller team was ill or whatever. This means that the other person in that team, even if they were fairly new to LFS/never done a major league race before would be drafted in. However, in a team like SR, that wouldn't matter as they have dozens of superb drivers. Thus, we have a situation where a person from the smaller team, who we'd love to have in the GTAL, now cannot race as they've participated in an IGTC race. Furthermore, it might be that Sonicrealms have a new, up-and-coming driver who they want to give some Endurance Race Experience to, so they put him in an IGTC team. This is the kind of person we'd like to have, but again that person now cannot participate in this series.

Where do we draw the line?

We'd love to be able to trust people to make up their own minds about whether or not they are suitable, but with such a pretigious championship and certain people's attitudes, that's sadly not going to happen.

We may end up doing it on a case-by-case basis, but of course then we'll get the children complaining "OMG HE WAZ LET IN WAI CANNOT I RACE PL0X!111?!1!?!1!?1!?!/1" and so forth.

:shrug:

It's a difficult choice on this particular rule, I think all of us will have our own ideas within NDR itself, but any other "differentiating" rules from you would be good. :thumbsup:

EDIT: But of course, I agree with the quoted about "giving the rest a chance". This series isn't meant for the aliens of this world ;)

[Tomhah]

I agree with you J@tko. The rules was not perfect in my opinion, but it wasnt a bad solution to start with. I will say that the best opinion is doing it "case by case". :)

[ivantod]

If someone starts in GT Amateur League 2010,and have no MoE/IGTC races,and in the middle of the GT Amateur League 2010 season,driver have debut in MoE/IGTC,can he continue GT Amateur League 2010 season or not.

I didnt see the answer for this case :D

[count.bazley]

Maybe have a maximum number of IGTC/MOE starts a driver can have. I believe this is how CART used to define a driver eligible for Rookie of the Year.

[Tomhah]

I just came with an idea. What about this?:

If a team has never driven in IGTC before (That a drive is in a team that havent been in IGTC/MoE), everyone in that team should be allowed to drive GTAL, but the teams that have teams in IGTC/MoE, we can have a maximum number of starts in IGTC/MoE or something (or that you review the drivers, one by one for example). Thats at least my opinion.

As there isnt easy for a team to "show what they got", to get up to MoE/IGTC, when they arent allowed to use a driver, because he has done 3-4 races for another team before. Endurance Racing is a team-sport, where every driver counts. And since this is a feeder series to IGTC/MoE, which is a team-based championship (and so is GTAL), I would like that most of the members can take part, as long as they havent done TOO many IGTC/MoE races/is way too fast, of course :)

Just an idea.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

I just came with an idea. What about this?:

If a team has never driven in IGTC before (That a drive is in a team that havent been in IGTC/MoE), everyone in that team should be allowed to drive GTAL, but the teams that have teams in IGTC/MoE, we can have a maximum number of starts in IGTC/MoE or something (or that you review the drivers, one by one for example). Thats at least my opinion.

As there isnt easy for a team to "show what they got", to get up to MoE/IGTC, when they arent allowed to use a driver, because he has done 3-4 races for another team before. Endurance Racing is a team-sport, where every driver counts. And since this is a feeder series to IGTC/MoE, which is a team-based championship (and so is GTAL), I would like that most of the members can take part, as long as they havent done TOO many IGTC/MoE races/is way too fast, of course :)

Just an idea.

This makes sence:thumb:

[HVS5b]

Maybe have a maximum number of IGTC/MOE starts a driver can have. I believe this is how CART used to define a driver eligible for Rookie of the Year.

Could be, could be....

It would have to a pretty low number though.

Personally I see the IGTC as a feeder to MoE. How about maintain the absolutely no MoE experience rule and allow maybe 2 IGTC races over the last two seasons?

Remember we're not talking about excluding racers forever, they would maybe just have to sit out maybe one season until their IGTC starts became anulled.

Tis a tricky one for sure, but I'd differentiate between MoE and IGTC drives.

To make decisions on a "case by case" basis would lead to complete mayhem imo.

[ivantod]

i still dont see solution for this. :)

If someone starts in GT Amateur League 2010,and have no MoE/IGTC races,and in the middle of the GT Amateur League 2010 season,driver have debut in MoE/IGTC,can he continue GT Amateur League 2010 season or not.

So i am not talking about whole team,i am talking about one driver(maybe some sort of rent-A-driver) :D
This stuff must be clearly xplained in rules,to avoid some special rules during season and other things.

[Tomhah]

I wont say that MoE drivers are faster than IGTC drivers, as they are almost the same:really:

Im for that a driver/team can continue in GTAL the current season if they have got a space/started an IGTC race after the GTAL season has started. Thats a good experience for both the team/driver and in my opinion, they shouldnt loose the championship/the possibility to win it, because they got a chance in a good league. Its good experience for the team/driver.

I also quite like my idea:

I just came with an idea. What about this?:

If a team has never driven in IGTC before (That a drive is in a team that havent been in IGTC/MoE), everyone in that team should be allowed to drive GTAL, but the teams that have teams in IGTC/MoE, we can have a maximum number of starts in IGTC/MoE or something (or that you review the drivers, one by one for example). Thats at least my opinion.

As there isnt easy for a team to "show what they got", to get up to MoE/IGTC, when they arent allowed to use a driver, because he has done 3-4 races for another team before. Endurance Racing is a team-sport, where every driver counts. And since this is a feeder series to IGTC/MoE, which is a team-based championship (and so is GTAL), I would like that most of the members can take part, as long as they havent done TOO many IGTC/MoE races/is way too fast, of course

Just an idea.

[ivantod]

that's why is it classified as MoE/IGTC drivers :D
Almost the same

[CSF]

Consider the following:
In the IGTC there is a good mix of big, well established teams aswell as some smaller, maybe national teams. Take an example of a smaller team with 5 members, and a much bigger team such as Sonicrealms. [sorry to single you out here guys!] Say you needed 4 members for one of the races in the IGTC, and one of the guys from the smaller team was ill or whatever. This means that the other person in that team, even if they were fairly new to LFS/never done a major league race before would be drafted in. However, in a team like SR, that wouldn't matter as they have dozens of superb drivers. Thus, we have a situation where a person from the smaller team, who we'd love to have in the GTAL, now cannot race as they've participated in an IGTC race. Furthermore, it might be that Sonicrealms have a new, up-and-coming driver who they want to give some Endurance Race Experience to, so they put him in an IGTC team. This is the kind of person we'd like to have, but again that person now cannot participate in this series.




Er... well if you look at what we did this season with GTAL, we had a pretty settled line up. We used GTAL to see how Howie would do in his first endurance type event, he did well so he stepped up to IGTC and we brought in another driver who will probably continue in GTAL next season to gain experience. We don't just stick people into IGTC, we plan to let them get experience in GTAL, just like we did this season... so yes, despite your "Don't mean to pick on you guys" if you are taking over admining this series, be aware of what teams who participate use GTAL to do, and don't talk tosh.

A common misconception people seem to have is that we can just pull drivers out of thin air who are able to drive endurance races. Utter tosh, our MoE/IGTC team is pretty settled and only about 9 drivers big. Using GTAL as we have done, we can get other drivers who might be useful to us in the future, and give them GTR Endurance experience, as well as giving them essential race experience, so they don't end up having a debut like I did at SO4 MoE that took me months to recover from. :D

Slap for Jack. :razz:


For what it's worth I think that it should still be no IGTC/MoE experience, unless there is exceptional circumstances, like a last minute stand in and they were rubbish. I could have done with doing GTAL when GTAL first started, but because we literarly had no drivers in MoE I had to drive and fail just to keep the team in MoE, and that cost me the chance to get experience on my own terms, and not worrying whether I was letting down the other two drivers. Things do happen...

[Tomhah]

For what it's worth I think that it should still be no IGTC/MoE experience, unless there is exceptional circumstances, like a last minute stand in and they were rubbish. I could have done with doing GTAL when GTAL first started, but because we literarly had no drivers in MoE I had to drive and fail just to keep the team in MoE, and that cost me the chance to get experience on my own terms, and not worrying whether I was letting down the other two drivers. Things do happen...


And that is why the rule in my opinion suck.

[Gil07]

Except for the fact that modern day Chris would completely own most of the GTAL field :shy:

[boothy]

Except for the fact that modern day Chris would completely own most of the GTAL field :shy:

I'm sure when he laps Passo it would change! :D

[dekojester]

I'll hit up some of the points here of my own view. See them below in RED.

Good to see you guys getting involved :thumb:

I've raced in a couple of your events and always found them well managed.

Thank you for these compliments, we try to make them as smooth as possible. :)

Changes/alterations/comments:

1. It would be good to see fuller grids.
+1
2. We need more 6hr races, not just one at end of season. Maybe a 12hr finale?
We're definitely going to have a couple longer races, probably a 5h and a 10h race. The other races will probably stay 3 hours long.
3. I liked the no MoE/IGTC drivers rule. Gives the rest of us half a chance.
Yes, we will be working on that rule quite heavily to ensure a fair balance for all.
4. Would you consider the introduction of a push car/safety car?
Already mentioned above. We will be introducing those.
5. Can the season be longer than 5 races pls? Although one a month was good spacing.
Rounds will stay a month apart, and we will visit each track environment once. And possibly one gets a second visit.
6. The restrictions should be the same as MoE GT2.
We will see what those are and how those are, but yes, we will go with a GT2 level restriction.
7. Will teams who raced in season 1 be given priority in the sign up? I can see this being MUCH more popular this time around.
Yes, those teams and teams who we have seen already will of course have a bit more priority because, well, we've seen them race before. We don't discriminate, but we will judge them off of past experiences. We will do applications similar to MoE....teams apply, but the organizers issue official invites to certain teams.
8. Glad you're moving it to winter, far too many nice summer evenings spent in front of my PC....
I need a life all year round, and LFS is it ! :D
9. The race end procedure should be followed or scrapped from the rules.
If we can figure out a way to make the bloody tracker ignore everything after the finish, then yes, we will have a better end-race procedure. It's annoying to have everyone stop before split 1.

[MoMo92i]

Looks fun :) E-Team will be in the house for GTAL 2010 !! :thumb:

[HVS5b]

Cheers for the reply deko, like what I'm hearing :)

[Damion1972]

Good luck guys :)

I hope it would be a Amateur Leauge and not a waiting list for MoE/IGTC drivers they didn`t find a place to drive in this leauges.
I know`you work together with this leauges but pleas lat this leauge a Amateur leaug like the name say.

greatings
Broe

[Deutschland2007]

Hope so aswell as SCCC is seriously thinking about entering this league.:nod:

[CSF]

Hope so aswell as SCCC is seriously thinking about entering this league.:nod:

:chairs:

Try not contradicting his post given you are on the bloody IGTC waiting list!

[Deutschland2007]

:chairs:

Try not contradicting his post given you are on the bloody IGTC waiting list!

I thought only racing in IGTC would ban you from driving in GTAL?:shrug:

[CSF]

Read Broe's post again.

[Deutschland2007]

Read Broe's post again.

So this means we had it right?:(

[Kristjan.J]

Well, most teams can make it to the waiting list in IGTC, so that sounds stupid imo. :really:

[Agressor]

:chairs:

Try not contradicting his post given you are on the bloody IGTC waiting list!
- Read Broe's post again.

I've read all of this thread and i downloaded the PDF rules and read thru them.

Where does it say that being on the waiting list for IGTC automaticly bans you from GTAL?
I thought it said "no IGTC experience".
Our team has no previous endurance racing experience in any league so i do not see why we would not be allowed to "apply" to GTAL. We are not and have not participated in any endurance league so far.

Does being on the waiting list = participating?

From the rules of GTAL:

3. IGTC and MoE Teams are allowed to take part in following cases:
- No driver in the lineup participates or participated in the current or previous MoE or IGTC season.
- If a team that already has an entry in MoE or IGTC wins the GTAL season championship, the (eventually given) prize for the season defaults to the first team in the championship order who do not already have a MoE/IGTC entry.Does participating = be on the waiting list? Or does it mean actually start/drive 1 race or more?

Does "have an entry" = be on the waiting list? Or does it mean start/drive 1 race or more?

This is a bit unclear to me.
Could you please clarify this so its 100% clear what is meant by this.

As far as i know none of the SCCC endurance team drivers have ever driving in GTAL, IGTC or MoE. Therefor we seem to be eligible to apply for GTAL, right?

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, i would just like to have this cleared up so we (SCCC) know what to do.

:shrug:

[boothy]

You seem to have a 'box full of neutrals. Read the posts carefully.

Broe says he doesn't want it to become a waiting list for MoE/IGTC then your german mate comes and contradicts himself by agreeing with Broe despite the fact that you have applied for IGTC (though in fact you're not on the waiting list (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=52739))!

I would say that given you've not done endurance racing before, GTAL is your better option. :thumb:

[Agressor]

/slap Deutschland2007

There :razz:

And yes your reply made me look at it differently.

But i still want an official reply from the crew to rule out confusing 100%.

[dekojester]

GTAL should, on my view, be seen as the development/proving ground for the newer teams or lesser experienced teams to endurance racing, and there should be a potential natural driver progression to IGTC / MoE of some type.

As long as LFS development continues, and as long as new people come in with an interest in GT endurance racing, there will always be a pool of new amateurs to fill the GTAL ranks. But some, no doubt, will eventually want to try to advance up to IGTC or MoE, when they feel they are ready.

The rules for Season 2010 will be based off of drivers, not teams. Just because a team has an entry in MoE doesn't mean they can't have an entry in GTAL. They could have drivers who haven't done GT endurance racing before, and want them to get experience in a "lower" series. Not a full trial by fire, as it were.

Our rule will be based to let teams have entries in all three series even, but we will take the concern on to the drivers who are put in to drive. It for sure won't be a two year period, but will stil be beyond a year. Then beyond that, the full details are still being pondered.

d

[GianniC]

Thank you for clearing that up Dekojester.

Reason why SCCC applied to IGTC was simply because we did not know about GTAL and believed that IGTC was the first step to endurance racing. Until we bumped into GTAL ;). Currently our IGTC application will stay up, until we have full confirmation to be able to participate in the upcoming GTAL season.

While I am present here, a big thank you to the new management for pushing this league forward. If you require aid with something, please let us know. Our Cabbies would gladly aid you in organising this endurance league.

Sincerely,

[Damion1972]

I just came with an idea. What about this?:

If a team has never driven in IGTC before (That a drive is in a team that havent been in IGTC/MoE), everyone in that team should be allowed to drive GTAL, but the teams that have teams in IGTC/MoE, we can have a maximum number of starts in IGTC/MoE or something (or that you review the drivers, one by one for example). Thats at least my opinion.

As there isnt easy for a team to "show what they got", to get up to MoE/IGTC, when they arent allowed to use a driver, because he has done 3-4 races for another team before. Endurance Racing is a team-sport, where every driver counts. And since this is a feeder series to IGTC/MoE, which is a team-based championship (and so is GTAL), I would like that most of the members can take part, as long as they havent done TOO many IGTC/MoE races/is way too fast, of course :)

Just an idea.

Good idea!:thumb:

Sometimes it would be smarter to read all post in a forum bevore I say something.:x

But i make my post at the base of the end of the season and all the statemants about drivers they would drive in the GTAL but they couldn`t why they did some races at the major leaug.Because I starts to get the fealing that a team with a bunch of fast drivers would change the drivers between the leaugs to have at every track the best and fastest drivers combination.

Sorry for my bad english I hope you could understand what I try to say.

greatings
Broe

[Tomhah]

GTAL should, on my view, be seen as the development/proving ground for the newer teams or lesser experienced teams to endurance racing, and there should be a potential natural driver progression to IGTC / MoE of some type.

As long as LFS development continues, and as long as new people come in with an interest in GT endurance racing, there will always be a pool of new amateurs to fill the GTAL ranks. But some, no doubt, will eventually want to try to advance up to IGTC or MoE, when they feel they are ready.

The rules for Season 2010 will be based off of drivers, not teams. Just because a team has an entry in MoE doesn't mean they can't have an entry in GTAL. They could have drivers who haven't done GT endurance racing before, and want them to get experience in a "lower" series. Not a full trial by fire, as it were.

Our rule will be based to let teams have entries in all three series even, but we will take the concern on to the drivers who are put in to drive. It for sure won't be a two year period, but will stil be beyond a year. Then beyond that, the full details are still being pondered.

d

But if a team does not have an entry in IGTC/MoE, will they also be reviewed, driver by driver?

Im quoting my last post:


I just came with an idea. What about this?:

If a team has never driven in IGTC before (That a drive is in a team that havent been in IGTC/MoE), everyone in that team should be allowed to drive GTAL, but the teams that have teams in IGTC/MoE, we can have a maximum number of starts in IGTC/MoE or something (or that you review the drivers, one by one for example). Thats at least my opinion.

As there isnt easy for a team to "show what they got", to get up to MoE/IGTC, when they arent allowed to use a driver, because he has done 3-4 races for another team before. Endurance Racing is a team-sport, where every driver counts. And since this is a feeder series to IGTC/MoE, which is a team-based championship (and so is GTAL), I would like that most of the members can take part, as long as they havent done TOO many IGTC/MoE races/is way too fast, of course :)

Just an idea.

[Trekkerfahrer]

But if a team does not have an entry in IGTC/MoE, will they also be reviewed, driver by driver?

Im quoting my last post:





you always try to get kenneth into GTAL.... simply wait for the rules and see what NDR does

[Tomhah]

you always try to get kenneth into GTAL.... simply wait for the rules and see what NDR does

hahahahahahaha, no...

I DID try to get Kenneth into GTAL, this is not for Kenneth, but for other drivers. Kenneth is IGTC worthy soon enough, after doing other events, and has proven himself very nicely. I am doing this for other drivers, as I bet some drivers will be in the bad situation. And CoRe Racing has an IGTC/MoE team, so if you read what I wrote, Kenneth would still not been able to driver GTAL for CoRe Racing. I said that that rule should only apply to teams who does NOT have a team in IGTC/MoE ;) Of course this is up to the admins, but Im giving my opinions. I discuss the rules before the season start, and is giving my opnions, what is wrong with that?

This is just a suggestion to the problem, which I find as a pretty good solution. :) I really do care about that people/teams should get the best chance to improve, and thats why Im very activ when it comes to this rule in GTAL. Its because I know its hard for new teams to show what they really got when they dont get a space in IGTC/MoE, and I hope you understand my concerns.

[boothy]

I think there are a few different scenarios here:

Team has no entry into IGTC/MoE, and no drivers having done IGTC/MoE (eg. E-Team, Xcite, SRS (:tilt:)) --- OK
Team has entry into IGTC/MoE, and uses no drivers having done IGTC/MoE (eg. SR, EER, CD) --- OK
Team has no entry into IGTC/MoE, and all drivers have done IGTC/MoE before (eg. a newly formed team) --- IMO they should not be allowed as they have too much experience. Guest team, perhaps.
Team no entry into IGTC/MoE, but has some drivers who have done IGTC/MoE before (eg. LRT) --- OK, so long as they don't use drivers who have done IGTC/MoE before. If they lack drivers or it is a longer race then you could allow them to use an IGTC/MoE driver for 1 or 2 hours at most.

If you have any more scenarios please list them.

Regards your quoted post, that is entirely correct, they shouldn't be able to use drivers who have done IGTC/MoE before. Like you say, endurance racing is a team sport, so just because one driver (Ken in LRT's case) isn't allowed to race doesn't mean the rest of the team can't drive, after all, if that one driver can't drive an IGTC/MoE race then the rest of the team would have to step up.

Just because drivers have done IGTC/MoE races for another team doesn't mean they lose their ability to drive to a higher level if they change teams. That's why they shouldn't be allowed to drive in GTAL, for the reasons you give - to allow the other drivers in the team to get experience.

[Tomhah]

I cant agree more with you :) But... on the last one, I think it depends on how many hours he/she has done. I mean... like two hours.. then change team... in my opnion, they should then be allowed to driver for the team. But if the person has done more than 4-5 hours, they should not, as I would qulify them as IGTC worthy (well, if they came last in all the races, maybe not:razz:), but I hope you see my point. Some drivers may just be pushed into the car, because one is sick or cant drive, and then, I wont really say that they're IGTC worthy. But... Again... Its just my opinion. I agree with the other things you say, and this is a really hard rule make perfect, if even possible :P

[Damion1972]

I think a perfect ruel for this case didn`t exist.
But the idea with the time limit isn`t bad.

What do you think about a smal gentleman agreement between all Race-Team Managers: They have to check that no racer for the GTAL haven`t to much expirence.

And is theire any chance to check every driver how much houres he/she have drive in IGTC/MoE?

[pacesetter]

I think a perfect ruel for this case didn`t exist.
But the idea with the time limit isn`t bad.

What do you think about a smal gentleman agreement between all Race-Team Managers: They have to check that no racer for the GTAL haven`t to much expirence.

And is theire any chance to check every driver how much houres he/she have drive in IGTC/MoE?


Damion was right, the rule was fairly black and white for me, but grey for some others. I think that IGTC drivers should be allowed, but this rule shouldn't be abused, for instance, no driver who's driven a total of 3< hours can drive in GTAL. My 2 cents.

[GianniC]

Checking racing hours ? Hmm. I believe that our new Admins do have better things to do than that. I don't really understand the fuzz about the issue here. It's easy and clear, why always try to bend the rules or abuse the loopholes :shrug:.

GTAL is for teams who're new or reasonable new to endurance racing in LFS. If you're racing in MoE you're obviously no longer an amateur. IGTC might be borderline, then again... it's obvious that a team of nFinity eSports or Core Racing is not new to endurance racing. If your team races in MoE or IGTC, you can't race in GTAL, unless bringing in an entire new pack of drivers to endurance racing. Like this for example Core Racing can introduce their younger, unexperienced in endurance racing drivers also into the world of endurance racing while defending their team name and colours. If a driver has ever raced in MoE or IGTC he or she can not race in GTAL, like this we also avoid some pre-planning in drivers doing one season MoE, other season GTAL. Primary focus is on the drivers, secondary focus is on the teams. I believe that's pretty crystal clear and not abuseable. If one of the big teams cancel their application to IGTC or MoE in order to race in GTAL-only and "win hands down", well... guess that says enough about what kind of team that is... I doubt that will happen.

Looking forward to hear more about GTAL soon ! :)

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Okay, so finally decided to give my two cents here:thumbsup:

I don't really like that rule forbiding to any ex-IGTC or MoE to take part on the GTAL TBH. Let's get clear, getting into the IGTC remains a great chance for "average" racers. Once you have it, you have to take it. But now, if for some reason, the race didn't get well for you, and no one in your team wants to give you another chance for 2010, that means you're out of the endurance scene for a whole year, and eventually more, as you're not welcome in the GTAL either. 1 year could seem to be not so much for some of you, but remember that for example it's a quarter of the age of the older LFS endurance league, MoE.

Even in real life motorsports, you have the right to not show up well at the pinacle without being rejected on the supports series. Just look at Pantano, Glock, Bruni, for example. All of them hadn't much success during their first attempt on Formula 1, but they had the opportunity to go back to GP2, with as a result for Glock, a full time F1 slot now. Now, I don't understand why on such an unforgivable environment, a second chance is given, whereas on LFS, there isn't.

If this sort of rejection is done to give a slot to the fresh new teams, I'd understand, but now, if you look closely, only 23-24 teams took part in each race, which means there's a lot of slots avilable, and this won't change for Season 2, seeing the way LFS stagnate on its developpement at the momment.

Now when I see that deko hopes to attract much more teams present on IGTC or MoE, to give more experience to their new members, no offenses, but I'm oblige to :rolleyes:. Let's get serious, managing a team, preserving the members' interrest and so on is damn' difficult on this kind of series. You can't say "We'll start the season with 3 guys and let's see how it goes". No. This doesn't work like that, and many drivers are obliged to pull over at some stage, because of familly commitements, or because they just got a chance to get into MoE/IGTC, or to get into a bigger team. That's why I'd say that 6 drivers should be enough to start a season if you take average guys. Now let's say that an average team counts 15 racers. If you start on the fact that 7 or 8 already raced on IGTC/MoE and that 4 or 5 cba/doesn't have enough time to do endurance, you only have 2 or 3 guys left for the GTAL. Just look at what happened to XFusion during this first season, or at TRDT's(which remain an endurance based team) withdraw before even the first round of the season. IMHO, only very big teams like ConeDodgers and Sonicrealms, can do both IGTC and the GTAL, just because of their epic amount of drivers they have inside of their team.

So, what I'd like to see, as a driver and as an ex endurance team-manager, is a softer rule on that point. As suggested before, a number of hours driven on IGTC seems to be a good thing, but IMHO there should be a distinction between the race winners and the rest of the field. An alien, who won once on IGTC out of the 2 races he took part, but cba to involve himself more in these series shouldn't be allowed to take part, while the average racer who took part in two races and finished 20th or so in both of them, and can't do more in the IGTC because someone else replaced him should IMO. Both of them drove the same amount of hours, but they are very different. That's why I'd like to see a limit of results, maybe something like 8th, which means you're out of the GTAL if you do better than that, alongside of a maximum amount of races driven, maybe something like 4 or so.

:thumbsup:

[Tomhah]

I agree with you Yann. This is what I have been trying to say. I think that what you suggest at the end, would work, but that if a driver feel that he isnt IGTC worthy, he can write a PM to the GTAL leaders, to ask for an exception. Then, they will review if he is good enough for IGTC or not. The guy who doesnt feel he is good enough for IGTC, should also say why he doesnt feel so etc, and tell a bit about the background. Thats what I think would be a rule, closer to perfect.

So this:

So, what I'd like to see, as a driver and as an ex endurance team-manager, is a softer rule on that point. As suggested before, a number of hours driven on IGTC seems to be a good thing, but IMHO there should be a distinction between the race winners and the rest of the field. An alien, who won once on IGTC out of the 2 races he took part, but cba to involve himself more in these series shouldn't be allowed to take part, while the average racer who took part in two races and finished 20th or so in both of them, and can't do more in the IGTC because someone else replaced him should IMO. Both of them drove the same amount of hours, but they are very different. That's why I'd like to see a limit of results, maybe something like 8th, which means you're out of the GTAL if you do better than that, alongside of a maximum amount of races driven, maybe something like 4 or so.

AND that drivers can apply for exceptions, if they for example have done more than 4 starts, or was just lying on the other team-members performance in that race, while he was doing a bad job, but they managed to finish like 7th-8th because of the other team-members.


EDIT:

Checking racing hours ? Hmm. I believe that our new Admins do have better things to do than that. I don't really understand the fuzz about the issue here. It's easy and clear, why always try to bend the rules or abuse the loopholes .

Right now, there isnt any rules about this yet, and we are free to discuss the rules.

Thats my 2 cents.:thumbsup: At least, it seems that me and Yann is having the same idea. As we both have been managers, and we both are drivers, and we both feel that you're not supported enough the way up to IGTC (at least imo :P)

[TexasLTU]

I don't think they will hear anything... :tilt:

[Damion1972]

Checking racing hours ? Hmm. I believe that our new Admins do have better things to do than that. I don't really understand the fuzz about the issue here. It's easy and clear, why always try to bend the rules or abuse the loopholes :shrug:.

GTAL is for teams who're new or reasonable new to endurance racing in LFS. If you're racing in MoE you're obviously no longer an amateur. IGTC might be borderline, then again... it's obvious that a team of nFinity eSports or Core Racing is not new to endurance racing. If your team races in MoE or IGTC, you can't race in GTAL, unless bringing in an entire new pack of drivers to endurance racing. Like this for example Core Racing can introduce their younger, unexperienced in endurance racing drivers also into the world of endurance racing while defending their team name and colours. If a driver has ever raced in MoE or IGTC he or she can not race in GTAL, like this we also avoid some pre-planning in drivers doing one season MoE, other season GTAL. Primary focus is on the drivers, secondary focus is on the teams. I believe that's pretty crystal clear and not abuseable. If one of the big teams cancel their application to IGTC or MoE in order to race in GTAL-only and "win hands down", well... guess that says enough about what kind of team that is... I doubt that will happen.

Looking forward to hear more about GTAL soon ! :)

You forget one thing.
At Conedodgers we have more as 50 members (and we are not the only team with more as 10 members) and only 4-5 of them are drive in the IGTC/MoE and the rest say we have not the speed or the time to practice to take part at this leauges.
This guys they have the time but not the speed and expirince for the 2major leaugs would drive here to get better.
And so I disagree with you when you say only teams they didn`t take part at the IGTC/MoE could drive in the GTAL.

[GianniC]

Damion:
This guys they have the time but not the speed and expirince for the 2major leaugs would drive here to get better.
And so I disagree with you when you say only teams they didn`t take part at the IGTC/MoE could drive in the GTAL.

So if Conedodgers brings forward a team consisting entirely out of non-IGTC and MoE racers, they perfectly can race in GTAL (according to what I propose - see bold below quote).

If your team races in MoE or IGTC, you can't race in GTAL, unless bringing in an entire new pack of drivers

In General:
At Conedodgers we have more as 50 members (and we are not the only team with more as 10 members) and only 4-5 of them are drive in the IGTC/MoE and the rest say we have not the speed or the time to practice to take part at this leauges.

Then why are you taking part in this league ? If you got 50 members (or +10 members) and you can't find 2-5 racers who can train for this league and are "fast enough by you word" to participate in this league, then why do you participate ?

but that if a driver feel that he isnt IGTC worthy, he can write a PM to the GTAL leaders, to ask for an exception. Then, they will review if he is good enough for IGTC or not.

What's the definition of "not feeling IGTC worthy" ? On what criteria will the have to review this driver ? What is "good enough" for IGTC or not ? Just saying: this is way too subjective and I see the abuses of this already coming by miles (from eg. Core Racing).

As we both have been managers, and we both are drivers

I'm a (team) manager and racer also, your point ? When I read Damion's and your proposal all I see is one thing: we're a big team, we want to shuffle in a pro in our amateur team so we can win.


How about this ?

Driver races in MoE ?
No GTAL.

Driver races in IGTC ?
No GTAL.

Driver has raced previous season in MoE ?
No GTAL.

Driver has raced previous season in IGTC ?
Individual review by admins, done on specific criteria which are made public. All teamleaders must agree.

Driver has raced previously (more than one season in between) in MoE and / or IGTC ?
Individual review by admins, done on specific criteria which are made public.

[luki97]

I think GTAL shouldn't be league for amateurs only because i dont think when some teams get up to IGTC so we have situation when MoE is full, IGTC full and in GTAL we got 10-15 cars (maybe, because we saw a lot of transfers in biggest teams and we have some empty places in higher leagues) and in that 3-5 are serious and rest will try and maybe never show on next round or they are driving too noobish... for teams who really want get to IGTC and they must show what they can in GTAL and race for real when rest of the grid have very low experience and get on the track without practicing and it means lot of crashes (maybe with bad luck for that 3-5teams who are battleing to be on the top of the league)...
So i Think GTAL should be something like that (3RD) lowest league something like:

F1 - MoE
F1.5 or F2 - IGTC
F2/3 -GTAL

and just only for example in GTAL can drive ~10last in standings IGTC teams because IGTC teams who are mainly on last places dont have sure situation and 100%chances to stay for next IGTC season.
Finally imo GTAL shouldn't be a league for Total amateurs only because in that top teams like Core, CD and others have very experienced 3-4 drivers for MoE/IGTC and rest of team members dont have a place to improve themself and this league maybe is their chance to drive in real endurance series.

p.s. I dont think admins want to spy and looking for that who have XX hrs in higher league for any driver.

[Tomhah]

Why do take me as CoRe Racing? Like that I will drive in GTAL? Of course Im a member of CoRe Racing, but Im talking from my point of view.

Condedodger are taking part, because they want their not-so fast and inexperienced drivers to get experience, without just beeing throwen out in one of the biggest leagues! They have 50+ drivers, where 5-6 of them is capeable of doing IGTC pace/has the experience to do it. Where are the 45 other drivers going to get experience from, to take the step up to IGTC? Tell me that... Condedodgers will for sure go for the experienced ones in IGTC, and its not easy to prove you're worth being one of those 4 drivers when you dont have any places to do show what you got/get experience!

an IGTC worthy driver is a driver who can a good pace, without doing mistakes, and is able to do so in the races. A driver who can that twice. Not only one time. If he has a lot of speed, but is always spinning the car each 10 minutes, he's not IGTC worthy, even though he is fast, in my opinion. You need to be fast, consistance and calm, in my opinion (and probably a lot more skills! :P)

You have not thought of that teams can have slower and inexperienced drivers, have you? No, you havent.

CoRe Racing does not use any proes in GTAL (if we even is gonna drive). That will be FAR AWAY from our points, and of course, CoRe Racing would never use any proes in an amateur league for winning. If we are gonna have a team in GTAL, its gonna be for our inexperienced drivers, who has barerly done any endurance racing. The results here is not important for us, as long as the drivers get experience. Im talking from my own point of view, but NONE would allow drivers like Phil Diaz, Nolan Scott or Rik De Jong in GTAL, as they have a lot of experience, and has done a lot of endurance races. But CoRe Racing does also have talents, and drivers who DONT have much experience in endurance racing (if at all), like Lennart De Jong, Yannick and Roland maybe. (Roland has done ONE race in MoE, where he finished 15th). Kenneth is soon or already ready for IGTC/MoE, since he has now tried to do as many endurance races as possible.

etc etc etc... The list goes on. Lets take an example for your team. Lets say you have one driver who has done one race in IGTC, and he is one of the drivers you want to use for GTAL, as he wont have the chance to drive in IGTC. Should he just drop endurance racing then? Or maybe he will even go as far as leaving your team, because your team can not offer what he wants.


bah... This was a lot of writing, and its very bad formated, but anyway. I hope I didnt do tooo many mistakes/write something I wasnt suppose to:razz::thumb::D

[pacesetter]

Kenneth is soon or already ready for IGTC/MoE, since he has now tried to do as many endurance races as possible.

No offence, but in my opinion, Ken has been ready for IGTC for a long time. And I do agree with the idea of having a rule allowing teams outside the top 15 to drive here.

[Tomhah]

No offence, but in my opinion, Ken has been ready for IGTC for a long time. And I do agree with the idea of having a rule allowing teams outside the top 15 to drive here.


You think that because he has been fast. He has not been conistant, and has done a lot of mistakes, which has made him retire/loose a lot of places in many races. :) But he's improved on that now, which he also showed in the NDR race. Sorry Kenneth:razz:

[Mister Pino]

...
CoRe Racing does not use any proes in GTAL (if we even is gonna drive). That will be FAR AWAY from our points, and of course, CoRe Racing would never use any proes in an amateur league for winning. If we are gonna have a team in GTAL, its gonna be for our inexperienced drivers, who has barerly done any endurance racing. The results here is not important for us, as long as the drivers get experience. Im talking from my own point of view, but NONE would allow drivers like Phil Diaz, Nolan Scott or Rik De Jong in GTAL, as they have a lot of experience, and has done a lot of endurance races. But CoRe Racing does also have talents, and drivers who DONT have much experience in endurance racing (if at all), like Lennart De Jong, Yannick and Roland maybe. (Roland has done ONE race in MoE, where he finished 15th). Kenneth is soon or already ready for IGTC/MoE, since he has now tried to do as many endurance races as possible.
...


Good example. I don`t think it is a good thing to disable any team to the GTAL, if that means there will be no full grid at the starting line. I don`t know how many team like to join the GTAL, but IMO disabeling some teams to join the league might get less cars at the start, and that`s, I think, just what we do NOT want :scratchch
Just my 2 cents :tilt:

Talking for myself, as everybody already may have noticed, I`m racing for the CoRe team now :D:D:D I`m a big fan of endurance racing,I had my first endurance experience last Saturday at the 2 hr NDR event. For me, it would be awesome to race in the GTAL for the CoRe team. But when the rule about blocking a team also racing in MoE/IGTC, this would mean I cannot start endurance racing in the GTAL, and I should start in IGTC, IF CoRe decides to put me in. Because we can use every driver, they would probably NOT pick me, because I have too little experience (apart from me failing of course :razz:) in endurance event. That would suck totally :shrug:, because I think the GTAL is THE league for amateurs starting with endurance racing.

[Damion1972]

You have not thought of that teams can have slower and inexperienced drivers, have you? No, you havent.

CoRe Racing does not use any proes in GTAL (if we even is gonna drive). That will be FAR AWAY from our points, and of course, CoRe Racing would never use any proes in an amateur league for winning. If we are gonna have a team in GTAL, its gonna be for our inexperienced drivers, who has barerly done any endurance racing. The results here is not important for us, as long as the drivers get experience. Im talking from my own point of view, but NONE would allow drivers like Phil Diaz, Nolan Scott or Rik De Jong in GTAL, as they have a lot of experience, and has done a lot of endurance races. But CoRe Racing does also have talents, and drivers who DONT have much experience in endurance racing (if at all), like Lennart De Jong, Yannick and Roland maybe. (Roland has done ONE race in MoE, where he finished 15th). Kenneth is soon or already ready for IGTC/MoE, since he has now tried to do as many endurance races as possible.

etc etc etc... The list goes on. Lets take an example for your team. Lets say you have one driver who has done one race in IGTC, and he is one of the drivers you want to use for GTAL, as he wont have the chance to drive in IGTC. Should he just drop endurance racing then? Or maybe he will even go as far as leaving your team, because your team can not offer what he wants.


bah... This was a lot of writing, and its very bad formated, but anyway. I hope I didnt do tooo many mistakes/write something I wasnt suppose to:razz::thumb::D

Thats ok for me if you say CoRe Racing didn`t use pro drivers at GTAL that`s what I mean with gentleman agreement.

[Tomhah]

exactly damion. I mean... None of the top teams will ever (as far as I know them :P) put in a super-team, or their best drivers in GTAL. They most probably pick the unexperienced ones. But of course we need a rule for it. I have written some ideas in my other posts, so dont worry, Im not gonna write them agian :P

[luki97]

Discussing about nothing very important to this league... stop thinking good for you and your friends, start think about everyone and good for everyone... i dont like your examples on one person like Kenneth or another your friend or your team, just think bout good for everyone... damn :|

[banshee56]

I agree that there should be a rule that specifies what your version of "amateur" is exactly. CoRe has made several additions to the team lately with drivers that show good talent now and the potential to develop into fine racers. We've targeted series like this as a way to get these developing drivers the chance to race in a quality endurance series that is well-run. This experience will allow them to not only develop race skill, but will also encourage the development of the type of mentality that you need for endurance racing specificially. Perhaps something that needs to be looked at is that if a team finishes Top-3 for the season, then those drivers that took part in that effort are no longer eligible for GTAL.

I'm real big on the "gentlemens' agreement" thing, but being a league admin myself, I think that there must be a concise and throrough rule to make sure that a team that chooses to enter must do so with drivers of the type that this series is expecting.

[HVS5b]

... stop thinking good for you and your friends, start think about everyone and good for everyone...

Word :thumbsup:


I'm real big on the "gentlemens' agreement" thing, but being a league admin myself, I think that there must be a concise and throrough rule to make sure that a team that chooses to enter must do so with drivers of the type that this series is expecting.

Gentlemans agreement will not work imo, too vague, imprecise and open to abuse. An exact rule is required, as you stated.

[DeadWolfBones]

As someone who helped formulate the idea of GTAL to begin with--as a feeder to IGTC/MoE and a place where teams or drivers who are not yet ready for those series can gain experience--I was consulted by Trekker during the first season when it became clear that the "no IGTC/MoE drivers" rule, as originally formulated, was a problem.

My suggestion, and one I still think is the best solution, is this:

Any team that starts the GTAL season with a roster that does not include drivers with IGTC/MoE experience can complete the entire season with that roster, whether the drivers on the roster subsequently race in IGTC/MoE or not.

New drivers with pre-existing IGTC/MoE experience obviously could not be added.

It's simple, it's clear-cut, and it's fair.

[Tomhah]

Discussing about nothing very important to this league... stop thinking good for you and your friends, start think about everyone and good for everyone... i dont like your examples on one person like Kenneth or another your friend or your team, just think bout good for everyone... damn :|tell me, where the hell have I thought of myself and my team here? I have only thought about drivers future, as Im writing as a neautral.

[luki97]

Any team that starts the GTAL season with a roster that does not include drivers with IGTC/MoE experience can complete the entire season with that roster, whether the drivers on the roster subsequently race in IGTC/MoE or not.

New drivers with pre-existing IGTC/MoE experience obviously could not be added.

It's simple, it's clear-cut, and it's fair.

I add my opinion to that:

If team that starts the GTAL season with a roster it means they accept league rules and dont do any problems to admins with that...

tell me, where the hell have I thought of myself and my team here? I have only thought about drivers future, as Im writing as a neautral.

For example sometimes when the season is beginning when kenneth cant start here... but its not important at the moment who do sometning some time ago, lets do something now good for everyone drivers (that experienced a little and that totally unexperienced)

[JayEyeBee]

I add my opinion to that:

If team that starts the GTAL season with a rooster it means they accept league rules and dont do any problems to admins with that...

The thought of a Rhode Island Red behind the wheel, crowing angrily at the aliens who managed to find their way into the GTAL was good for a good 15 second belly laugh.

[CSF]

What exactly is this argument about?

[R.Kolz]

IMO this thread is also a good example of that we´re these days are in need of some more "Quality" GTR Endu-Leagues. I hope we´ll see some more soon. :thumbsup:

It´s a good thread and I´m convinced that the new GTAL admins will find the best way of treating semi-pro´s in their league.

[dekojester]

So, I've got a provisional rulebook done up that will be circulated between me and the others that I will be using to check it in NDR to set up this next GTAL season. Once they have read it and submitted their thoughts and I update it to include them once we've discussed it, the provisional rules will be posted here for a final review before being made official at all.

We still welcome your input on what you think so far, keeping in mind, we've got a provisional working of how we're going ot handle IGTC/MoE drivers, and we'd quite like any other input.

Also, when we do the official whiz-bang "IT'S HEEEEREEEE!" for 2010 season, we will in all likelihood request this section be moved into the NDR black hole in this section, so it's with the rest of our stuff. But that won't be for a while, so don't worry for now.

Just a bit of a "Status Update"

Thanks!
deko

[dekojester]

Attached here is a provisional rulebook. Please provide comments about what you see in this document. Also feel free to point out clerical errors (e.g. typos or bad section references).

The book is attached as a pdf.

A rule that we internally discussed that we wish to receive public comment on before including it. Quoted from our discussion: "The person who sets the team's fastest lap during qualification must do at least 1 racing lap in the race, except in extraordinary circumstances where the Admin team have been informed"

Your comments are requested on this, and others. Happy reading !

d

[GianniC]

VII. Qualification Procedure

2. A maximum of two (2) drivers from a team may take part in the two sessions.
There shall be only one driver per team on course at any given time.

The "A" is in bold and should not be in bold. So far no other errors spotted.

[dekojester]

The "A" is in bold and should not be in bold. So far no other errors spotted.

I was getting annoyed that the app was bolding every new line against my will, and forgot to change that one. :P

d

[HVS5b]

Comments

V.5 - Might be an idea to attach the NDR sporting code for name formats so all the rules and regs are in one document?

VII - Like the quali format change, good one. Would definately stick with the no shift P or shift S though.

IX.2 - I liked the restriction on the number of driver changes. In the final race of last season it brought some more strategy into play.

XIX.1 - Mandatory use of IRC? Hmmm, not keen on this at all. As a team of 3 drivers, its quite possible only two of us will be available for any given event. The other person not driving is watching the trackers/LFS remote etc and passing this info. to the driver on TS. The mandatory use of IRC will make this impossible and hamper our driver.

General

Having 2nd thoughts about the safety car tbh. Is it really necessary? Its not like we have stewards to injure or anything and may just make for an unneccesarily close field.

Is there a rule to prohibit changing the drivers side, or did I miss that?

Is there a rule to prohibit using tools/editors which change the car handling/mechanics, or did I miss that?

Sounds like a good compromise on the IGTC/MoE thing.

Good one chaps :)

ps - re: your rule for the quali driver doing a race stint, yes I think that should be so (wherever possible)

[Wilko868]

The SC adds excitement to what can quite possibly be a very dull race, as if an incident occurs, the pack is bunched up. See the LFSBC & NDRC final round broadcast to see what im on about, a SC was called with about 15 minutes to go, and we had a 1 lap dash to the line, brilliant racing :D

The driver change restriction IMO stopped people risking longer stints and 1 less pitstop. Although at most rounds it wouldn't have been possible, it would of been exciting to see people try.

I agree with the hardcore quali to a certain extent. I believe drivers should be allowed to shift p or shift s, but only from a pitbox so it dosen't look as silly as a car just dissapearing from the middle of the road.

[J@tko]

For IRC, you just need someone in there really. I was in there for the ICON team in the recent IGTC race, but really I was only checking there every 5 mins or so when I got bored of reading the forums. It's only for the very unlikely occasion that we need to yell at your team for lag/wrecking people or things. Deko would probably say it in server too anyways.

AFAIK we don't care what driver side you use, and I'm 99.99% sure there's something in the sporting code about hacks and stuff :)

[JO53PHS]

O Hai ! Although we need to add something about VOB mods.


XII. Driver Aids / Game Modifications
1. New Dimension Racing prohibits use of hacks that modify the natural performance of
the vehicle. Drivers found to be utilizing such tools are subject to exclusion from future
NDR events.
2. Competitors are not to use player hacker during official sessions.
3. NDR does not establish a general rule regarding driving aids such as Traction Control
or Anti-Lock Braking systems. These are established in the individual series rules.

[HVS5b]

The SC adds excitement to what can quite possibly be a very dull race, as if an incident occurs, the pack is bunched up. See the LFSBC & NDRC final round broadcast to see what im on about, a SC was called with about 15 minutes to go, and we had a 1 lap dash to the line, brilliant racing :D

The driver change restriction IMO stopped people risking longer stints and 1 less pitstop. Although at most rounds it wouldn't have been possible, it would of been exciting to see people try.

I agree with the hardcore quali to a certain extent. I believe drivers should be allowed to shift p or shift s, but only from a pitbox so it dosen't look as silly as a car just dissapearing from the middle of the road.

Safety car, a bit artificial imo. Didn't need one for an exciting end to a couple of last seasons GTAL races.

I still think in shift P or S should be utterly banned unless so directed by race admin. It has no place in a serious league.

For IRC, you just need someone in there really. I was in there for the ICON team in the recent IGTC race, but really I was only checking there every 5 mins or so when I got bored of reading the forums. It's only for the very unlikely occasion that we need to yell at your team for lag/wrecking people or things. Deko would probably say it in server too anyways.

AFAIK we don't care what driver side you use, and I'm 99.99% sure there's something in the sporting code about hacks and stuff :)

I've never used IRC and know nothing about it, but assumed it would prohibit me from being on TS (and therefore communicating with our driver) at the same time? My point was, that if there are only two of us...

Driver sides, yes choose either. But stick with it thereafter, no changing race to race.

Cheers for quick replies :)

[GianniC]

-
XI.Pit Lane
1. During green flag conditions, the pit lane shall remain open and pits tops may be made freely.
a. The entry lane as marked by the yellow or white line is a guideline to which no penalty will be enforced for cutting. Exceptions may be listed on certain courses in the Drivers’ Briefing thread prior to a round.
b. You may use any currently open pit stall for your pitstop. Travel to the
furthest stall down to reduce risk of collisions in pit lane.
c. Do not re-enter the track until the yellow or white line ends, or other further markings by race administration. Crossing this line may result in a drivethrough penalty.


Can this be cleared up please ? I have my idea of what it means, but somehow I find it a bit unclear mentioned (as being new to such strict and official regulations :razz:).

- I still think in shift P or S should be utterly banned unless so directed by race admin. It has no place in a serious league.

I agree, if you get stuck or you crash your car so badly that you can't return to the pits for repairs (once in pitlane shift+p can be used of course) then your qualify session ends.

-
Is the mandatory use of IRC really required ? I know of future to come situations where in my team only the racer will be online at given moments due to real life issues for the other racers which can not be active behind the computer.

- VII. Qualification Procedure
1. Each race weekend shall have two qualifying sessions. The fastest time of the
two sessions will be taken to set the grid.
a. Session One shall be held from 20:00 UTC on the Sunday Preceding the race.
and shall run for sixty (60) minutes.
b. Session Two shall be held from 20:00 UTC on the Friday preceding the race
and shall run for forty-five (45) minutes.
2. A maximum of two (2) drivers from a team may take part in the two sessions.
There shall be only one driver per team on course at any given time.
3. During qualifying, teams may tele-pit or spectate at will and rejoin the session.
4. There is no limit to the amount of laps that may be driven during qualification.

What's the motivation behind having the qualify on two different dates ? Why can't it be done on race day itself (eg. like in IGTC) ?

-
Is doing both qualify sessions mandatory ? Are there penalties for missing a session ?

Sincerely,

[Wilko868]

It is very similar to MoE. You can attend both, one or no sessions. Your best time of the two sessions is your qualifying lap. If you do not attend the sessions, you start from the back.

Thats how it works as far as I am aware.

Regarding the Blend lines, the first bold section regards pit entry, the second relates to pit exit.

IRC is there so that we can get into contact with you. You will only be penalised if we need to contact you and no-one is avaliabe. You have the choice of putting a man in there or not, your risk. I had IRC and TS running for the IGTC round just to show that we had a representitive until Jackson came, it still works, although you clearly can't send or recieve messages.

[Gil07]

Why would IRC conflict with vent of teamspeak? :/

I'll give those rules a look when I get the chance :)

[J@tko]

What's the motivation behind having the qualify on two different dates ? Why can't it be done on race day itself (eg. like in IGTC) ?

-
Is doing both qualify sessions mandatory ? Are there penalties for missing a session ?

MoE have quali on seperate dates. My idea was to have one a bit before a la MoE, then have the second one just before, a la IGTC, but deko wasn't keen on that...

And I think we agreed that you can do either session, or both - it's up to you. I can't remember if we said if the same person should do both qualis, but I would think you'd be allowed to have two different people do the different quali sessions :thumbsup:

Why would IRC conflict with vent of teamspeak? :/

I'll give those rules a look when I get the chance :)
I don't think he knows what IRC is ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC - it's like a massive MSN conversation :D

And if you're really cool like me, you can have Vent and TS open at the same time with the same PTT button - Falke got very confused on Saturday night :shy:

[GianniC]

Regarding the Blend lines, the first bold section regards pit entry, the second relates to pit exit.

That's what I was thinking, though I just asked to get it clear.
Thank you also (all) for clearing up the rest. I don't have any other questions or remarks standing so far.

Perhaps... it would be useful to do a little "test" event before Race 1 of the new season ? Get through the possible options; a red flag, a race start, getting back in formation behind a SC, ... ?

[de Souza]

Eighteen pages...

As much as I welcome a good league administration, I think this rulebook + the discussion I'm seeing here will lead from, and I don't mean to offend anyone, an amateur-endurance-league-ran-by-amateur-admins to a very-professional-endurance-league-aimed-at-unexperienced-drivers-who-have-no-life-outside-LFS.

I also think that in the end, at least on the first races, half of the grid will have no idea of the actual rules because they a) couldn't bother reading it or b) read it superficially and forgot most of it. And then those who really took the effort to read and understand will suffer anyway.

I'm not saying what is good or bad, just thinking about it. What I know for sure is that I got very happy when NDR stepped up and now I find myself not wanting to take part. Not that it matters much, as I see some people are indeed interested.

I'm just sad, there's so much effort these days enforcing things that racing itself is just an extra. :shrug:

[CSF]

Sure, but people are willing to cheat...

I'm sure there is one sad person out there that would buy a new account and pretend they are slow, just for the e-penis later. Infact I can think of one that did so that was back 6 months ago part of a team that knows nothing about it now. :P

[boothy]

I agree, though you could remove all of the BS stuff and make the font size a bit smaller and it would be better. In fact, you could go with the adage of removing half the words then removing half of what's left, and still be left with enough meaning to allow the racing to run smoothly! :tilt:

[Mp3 Astra]

I just want to show up, qualify and race; not wait a week/a day between sessions! I like qualifying in that it's quite short and tense. 1 hour 45 mins of quali seems too much to me, if I'm honest. The half hour extreme sessions were more fun and also frustrating, which is what the league should be about; being absolutely on the edge of control but not over the edge. Giving the drivers nearly 2 hours to hotlap and smash into barriers isn't right; you might as well just take hotlaps from LFSW. It's too easy! Just my insight there.

[AstroBoy]

What if a driver, has 1 round of IGTC experience, but the team in which participated no longer exsist.
This is just my curious knowledge ive participted in a round of IGTC well a half hour atleast, before a blowout sent me into a wall and race over, but anyway apart from my fail.
I was wondering if i would still be eligable to race.
And drivers without teams anyway to help them into racing in this?

[boothy]

Well teams don't do the driving, drivers do so that is why it's the level of drivers and not the teams matter. If this was last season you would not be able to drive, though if we were still using last year's rule you would be able to this season. The proposed rules would mean you would not be allowed to race unless you showed yourself to be at an "amateur level".

And yes, I think a privateer's team would be a good idea or a "team" setup just for GTAL would be allowed I'm sure.

[evilpimp]

I think that if a driver can prove that his IGTC or MoE experience was a complete failure, he should be allowed into GTAL.

[pearcy_2k7]

I think that if a driver can prove that his IGTC or MoE experience was a complete failure, he should be allowed into GTAL.

CSF for GTAL then? :razz:




jks jks

[dekojester]

Okay, let's see if I can answer some of these things without ranting about something, but this will still be a doctorate thesis. :P

First off, the NDR Sporting code has almost everything that has become common to our events, so that it doesn't have to be repeated again and again and again and again and again. It also contains our standards expected. Naming format is simple. We want your number, with a space, then F.Last. We won't nitpick a space or not between drivers, that's really just stupidly strict. We want it in a grey colour for easy of looking when in, say, qualifying or for LFSStats use on other leagues.

I'm actually now pondering changing the qualie system. I prefer the two spread out ones because it spread out the admin workload, and also will let teams have some extra time to switch from qualifying mode to race mode. I did the longer times to allow a bit more time to set a lap, and that's why I scrapped the No ShiftP/S stuff. But, my thought now is, is keep the session times the same, but Sunday is simply an organized free practice, and the only qualifying is on Friday. But that'll stay up in the air. After some thought on it also, the qualifying driver(s) must start in the race will be implemented.

I don't like limiting strategy choices, and since we'll have diferent race lenghts for a few more rounds this season, I didn't wish to risk any confusion there either.

IRC is an internet relay chat, and really can use minimal resources and allow a team manager or somesuch not on track to be in it and Remote etc. It's there so we can send messages and penalties and discuss the race with teams without us having to procure a 300 slot Vent server to park everyone in.

We will not monitor driver side things, that's also nit-picky. The Sporting Code covers modifications, etc. No player hacker, and nothing that edits the natural performance of the car (I'd classify VOB mods as affecting the natural performance of the car since they change the natural car, iirc)

Safety Cars will not be called for just anything. Generally, for this, they will be called for a beached car or a car out of fuel on track, or a car upside down, or a major incident that involves a majority of the cars on course or will pose a severe risk of affecting other cars within more than a short space of time, as in, it takes a long while for cars to clear the scene and begin moving again. SCs add another element of strategy to Endurance racing, which is what is needed. There's a great element of luck with SCs implemented, but there's always luck in racing.

Our goal is to keep the amateur status for participation there, while running the league in a professional manner to help prepare drivers for IGTC or MoE should they advance to it or to keep the racing as clean as possible. We wish to see drivers who have already got experience, but not the IGTC/MoE level of experience that would be needed for those.

Also, the rulebook is only 18 pages because of things learned from the other series that we run and the other Endurance series. Rulebooks, on my view, are meant simply to be the guidelines for runnign the races and deciding on conflicts. It is my desire to never have to enforce or use over half of what I put in the rulebook. I much prefer the racing on track to spending my evenings and days following a race reviewing incidents and protests and screwing with the results after the race. But the rules are there to provide an as clear as possible explanation for what to do when something happens. I don't expect anyone to know the rules by heart, or never have to reference them. I just expect that teams and drivers have a basic, general knowledge of what the deals are and can put them to use on the track. Of course, we'll always remind of the common ones, and we will remind when needed. We also do tend to issue warnings for rule infractions before a full out penalty, at least early in the season. Even I don't have the rules memorized, so I can't expect it to be done by anyone else.

Rules, for this, and any other thing, anywhere, are just there to be the standard set of actions to take in reaction to the initial action. They are NOT there for us admins to choke off the ability to race freely, they are NOT there for us to be uberpower-hungry admins. They're there so we have guidlines to work off of when we need to, as they are there for you.

d

[GianniC]

18 pages is not that much at all. Took me 10 minuts of reading after a 2 minute diagonal scope. A lot could indeed be put shorter or get skipped, but I see no need for that. Amateur league or not, I like and want a professional organisation. Rulebooks and briefings are also part of real life racing, just like they're part of LFS. I enjoyed seeing the first edition of the rulebook and being able to shape it, gives me envolvement in the leauge and joy; makes me looking forward to be able to race as professional as the big shots, in endurance style, but of course 5 seconds a lap slower :D.

I just want to show up, qualify and race; not wait a week/a day between sessions! I like qualifying in that it's quite short and tense. 1 hour 45 mins of quali seems too much to me, if I'm honest. The half hour extreme sessions were more fun and also frustrating, which is what the league should be about; being absolutely on the edge of control but not over the edge. Giving the drivers nearly 2 hours to hotlap and smash into barriers isn't right; you might as well just take hotlaps from LFSW. It's too easy! Just my insight there.

I agree with the above quote. Qualifications just before the race is fun and less predictable. Not to mention it makes organising our (amateur endurance) teams a lot more easier ! It also allows for some better contact between the racers; most will show up a bit ealier for the qualify and then can chat a bit, mess around the track, ect... (eg. like in the latest IGTC event), followed up by a tense qualify, a little break and then a professional and undoubtful great endurance race!

:eclipsee_

[Wilko868]

(eg. like in the latest IGTC event)

That was just madness though :razz:

I agree with Passo to a certain extent, but the whole idea of the series is to get people prepared for progressing to IGTC and MoE. My time in GTAL, as unsuccessful it was, taught me how to drive a decent stint in a GTR. That experience helped me tons for the IGTC stint I did.

I agree with the qualifying sessions though, it should be just prior to the race as in IGTC.

[CSF]

CSF for GTAL then? :razz:




jks jks

:D

Last IGTC was fine though, just sloooooooower than practice by a mile. :tilt:

[aobrien]

I fully agree with Yann and Tommy. What Yann is saying should be put forward, with people given exceptions from their ability, seperating aliens from the averages. Just to use myself as an example, I was always third choice for the GTAL team in the team that I ran, while we only ever had two people racing, so I never got to drive in it because I wasn't 'good enough' for my team. Then the team closed and I moved on to StarLite with Jack Ward, who was on the GTAL team at my team, and we at StarLite got a place in the IGTC in round 6.
Jack was obviously first choice because he is the best in the team at endurance racing and I was also asked to drive. We had a eventful race and we were running fairly high up after starting 22nd and we finished 13th.
For people like me, I still feel I should be allowed drive in GTAL because I wasn't good enough for my teams roster during this season and it was only by chance I got a IGTC which I might not get next season, and then I wont be eligable for GTAL

[Wilko868]

It totally depends on your amount of experience, and how you fared in that time. Your one race wasn't so successful, so you would probably be permitted to race in the GTAL. But for example, Rik De Jong. He has had 3 or 4 races in the IGTC (AFAIK) and has been flying. He obviously won't be permitted to race.

If you have ANY experience at all in either IGTC or MoE, you would have to come to us before you drive, and ask if you will be permitted.

[Tomhah]

It totally depends on your amount of experience, and how you fared in that time. Your one race wasn't so successful, so you would probably be permitted to race in the GTAL. But for example, Rik De Jong. He has had 3 or 4 races in the IGTC (AFAIK) and has been flying. He obviously won't be permitted to race.

If you have ANY experience at all in either IGTC or MoE, you would have to come to us before you drive, and ask if you will be permitted.

Sounds great to me :) Just a quick one, if I dont drive the next IGTC race (and not the starting MoE rounds :P), Will I then be able to drive GTAL, as I havent driven in IGTC/MoE then? :D (not that I will, its just interesting to know xD)

[Wilko868]

Sounds great to me :) Just a quick one, if I dont drive the next IGTC race (and not the starting MoE rounds :P), Will I then be able to drive GTAL, as I havent driven in IGTC/MoE then? :D (not that I will, its just interesting to know xD)
Yes, you will be permitted to drive in the GTAL.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Right, so I just figured I'd try to proove another time how this "no-IGTC" driver rule is so unproductive for endurance racing...

Okay, so as everyone saw, the 2009 IGTC season saw a lot of withdrawns coming from important well-established teams, because they couldn't keep enough interrest behind the scene. This gave a slot at the end of the season to the ex-iCON Team(The Road Crew nowadays), last on the reserve list, and to two new brand new entrants, Starlite and SRLT.

Let me refresh your memory, Starlite and SRLT just came during the season, submitted a sig-up entry, and were accepted without any test. This means that any random guy, whatever his pace could come and bring up two buddies, submit an entry, and eventually have the opportunity to race. So, this means that everyone willing to race in the IGTC, in theory could have been excluded from the GTAL whatever his experience.

I know that you're going to open the door to some guys, letting to everyone the possibility to proove that s/he hasn't the IGTC/MoE standards. But, trust me, this put a fog into everyone's conception of the future, as no one knows what criterias you'll put to deem a driver too experienced to race in the GTAL. To illustate that thought just lemme remind you that one :

South City Caby Company withdraws its application to IGTC.
This in order to be completely sure to be able to compete in the GTAL.

What?? SCCC, a 6 years old team without any experience in endurance, throwing a chance to get into the IGTC, in order to be 100% sure they'd get in the GTAL?:shrug:

This was just to show to everyone, that this rule is destroying the IGTC's and the GTAL's grids, while endurance racing is struggling with the lack of interrest coming from the "historical" teams. I find it absolutely pathetic IMO.

Last thing, is that a proved fact that having driven in the IGTC makes you stronger than the rest of the Earth? Let's face the truth, being experienced will help you to deal with the pressure, will teach you how to preserve the tyres, but will certainly not help you to to increase your race pace of 2 or 3 seconds, basically the ones you need to find to go from a 7th place at the GTAL to a 7th place at the IGTC.

[Wilko868]

proove another time how this "no-IGTC" driver rule

What no-IGTC driver rule?

Any driver having any previous has to CONSULT the admin team, it is then up to the admins to decide if their experience was great enough not to be permitted to drive GTAL.

So there is no no-IGTC rule at all.

NOTE: You would be permitted to drive Yann.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Any driver having any previous has to CONSULT the admin team, it is then up to the admins to decide if their experience was great enough not to be permitted to drive GTAL.

mmkay...:shrug: But how will you separe the "still-GTAL class" drivers to the rest?

NOTE: You would be permitted to drive Yann.

:)

[Wilko868]

Well there won't be a class system or any pile of rubbish like that. We (NDR) will judge ANY driver with prior IGTC or MoE experience on aspects such as result, behaviour, pace versus team mates, success.

So drivers like Rik De Jong (Sorry to single you out alot Rik :razz:) who have driven at a good pace and has had a succession of very good drives would obviously not be permitted to race in the GTAL.

But say you Yann. Your race in the one IGTC round did not yield a good result, and we wern't really on the pace. Thus, you would probably be permitted (after NDR discuss it) to race in the GTAL.

I hope this clears it up for you mate :)

[GreyBull [CHA]]

I hope this clears it up for you mate :)

Yes, quite, thanks:)

[CSF]

Sounds like I can drive then? :D

[Wilko868]

Sounds like I can drive then? :D
Don't discount it :razz:

[CSF]

Well that might not be a good idea given the fits of laughter the last round gave me when BOOTHY did fastest lap. :x

[Wilko868]

That was quite funny.

Felipe's first ever fai.......I mean broadcast was the same race too.

[CSF]

Yes maybe that didn't help. :x

[boothy]

Well that might not be a good idea given the fits of laughter the last round gave me when BOOTHY did fastest lap. :x

Obviously those behind me were pissing themselves laughing so much at me being in the lead that I sneaked in there with the fastest lap! :smileypul

[Wilko868]

^ Exactly why we're not going for a blanket rule :thumb:
Exactly why you had to get another post to add to the 6,873 when I had already explained :doh:

[GianniC]

What?? SCCC, a 6 years old team without any experience in endurance, throwing a chance to get into the IGTC, in order to be 100% sure they'd get in the GTAL?:shrug:

This was just to show to everyone, that this rule is destroying the IGTC's and the GTAL's grids, while endurance racing is struggling with the lack of interrest coming from the "historical" teams. I find it absolutely pathetic IMO.

SCCC is a mature and experienced team and we are acting like one. We have no endurance racing experience. Hence why we will follow the natural way of working ourselfs up in endurance racing by starting in GTAL. Being a 6-years-old team doesn't necessarily make us better than a just made team (extreme example: nFinity eSports).

If our first GTAL season goes well we'll soon be racing in IGTC. If not, then at least we're racing where we should be racing without diminishing anything of the high quality racing seen in IGTC and while contributing to a great organised league, like GTAL will undoubtfuly be, with our clean and mature racing.

Win-win for everyone, I hardly see why this "would be destroying IGTC"... I'd easily say au contraire!

Sincerely,

[aobrien]

Yann just $hites wisdom

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Yann just $hites wisdom

:slap:

[dekojester]

Provisional Rulebook update:

Edited qualifying. I'm keeping the two sessions during the week. It does two things: Lets us see what might need to be watched out for, gives time to teams to see what they need to work on, offers a chance for more practice before raceday, and will allow us admins time to sort any issus, and allows drivers and teams a break between qual and racing. Shift p/s must be done from a pit stall. Added the qual driver must do at least a lap rule.

Amended some other stuff, but nothing too difficult if I remember.

It's attached. If there are no further complaints, I'll update it with a table of contents and stuff. I'll also do a few summary sheets for the important stuff like race procedures etc.

Also, provisional schedule, order may change though:
Round 1: 3 Hours of Kyoto GP Long (KY3) w/Boothy chicane
Round 2: 3 Hours of South City * - See below
Round 3: 6 Hours of Westhill International Reversed (WE1R)
Round 4: 3 Hours of Fern Bay Gold (FE3)
Round 5: 6 Hours of Aston Historic Reversed (AS4R)
Round 6: 3 Hours of Blackwood Grand Prix Reversed (BL1R)
Round 7: 12 Hours of Kyoto National (KY2)

The SO is not fully decided because we have a few combos in mind. SO4 is considered overused, and we won't use that. Jackson brought up SO6R as "being really great" that we basically canned that idea. So, the combos we've narrowed it down to are:

SO4R and SO5.

We are leaning at the moment towards SO4R, but want to hear what you all think.

We are also unsure on start times yet for the season, but once we finalise the rules and stuff that'll be sorted.

Also, provisional restrictions are in the rules. FZR 21%, FXR 23% and XRR 24%.

We are also going to stage a test event rather soonish after all of this other bureaucratic stuff gets sorted. And after applications start.

Comments of course, are welcome.

d

[Deutschland2007]

If you asked me on what track to use for the SO round I´d say SO4R. SO5 is nearly as overused as SO4.:shrug:

[GianniC]

SO4R indeed sounds good.
Can the KY3 race be made KY3 Rev ?

Good updates further, bit sad about the split qualify but I can understand the motivation of doing so.

Bring on the test event :thumb:

[Deutschland2007]

SO4R indeed sounds good.
Can the KY3 race be made KY3 Rev ?

Good updates further, bit sad about the split qualify but I can understand the motivation of doing so.

Bring on the test event :thumb:

They already finshed season 1 on KY3R and KY3 is nicer and easier to drive. Especially with boothy´s chicane.:)

[AstroBoy]

Round 1: 3 Hours of Kyoto GP Long (KY3) w/Boothy chicane

Does that mean Boothy will stand there and we avoid him? That would be a spectacle if i ever saw one.

Jackson brought up SO6R as "being really great" that we basically canned that idea.

Also Lol. But i do like his idea though strangly.

I like the scheduale going to be a good mix

[dekojester]

Does that mean Boothy will stand there and we avoid him? That would be a spectacle if i ever saw one.



Also Lol. But i do like his idea though strangly.

I like the scheduale going to be a good mix

The boothy chicane is findable here http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1236304#post1236304

And no, boothy will not be there. He'll be in the race control booth helping me monitor the race if everything goes to plan.

Jackson also said that WE1R was a shite idea for a track, but I again reminded him that he is automatically evicted from any discussion on what westhill combo to use, what to do with a setup, or anything other than actually race it or discuss the race after it happend because of this post of his (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=990586#post990586) :D

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Keep ky3 it's mint !:)

For South City, so4r plox:shy:

And is there any chance to replace we1r by we1?:thumbsup:

[Wilko868]

]And is there any chance to replace we1r by we1?
No. :razz:

[Mp3 Astra]

I'm glad we're naming the corner after Boothy. Hopefully MoE will use that chicane so I can keep saying his name so he becomes an LFS legend with his corner-making skills.

[MoMo92i]

Forza SO4R ! Not a track for women ^^ like FE

Looks to be a nice programm :) withlonger race...that's better :thumb:

[boothy]

As much as it would be funny to stick a marshal there and skin it to look like me, I don't think the drivers would approve of being spectated. And I'll be racing anyway, so I can't be in two places at once.

Can we have a common sense approach to the restrictions please, keep the FZR where it is, and move the other cars closer towards it! Calendar looks good but isn't 7 rounds a bit much? Considering season 1 only had 5 races, and MoE has 6 - especially with the longer races? :shrug:

[Wilko868]

I personally wouldn't mind dropping KY3.

Sorry JP :razz:

[GreyBull [CHA]]

No way, let's drop we1r instead.

[Wilko868]

;1252188']No way, let's drop we1r instead.
No.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

No.

yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes
yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes
yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes
yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes
yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes
yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes
yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes
yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes
yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes

[GreyBull [CHA]]

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :d

OMG LETS STOP SPAMMING :chair:

[aobrien]

Original:
Round 1: 3 Hours of Kyoto GP Long (KY3) w/Boothy chicane
Round 2: 3 Hours of South City * - See below
Round 3: 6 Hours of Westhill International Reversed (WE1R)
Round 4: 3 Hours of Fern Bay Gold (FE3)
Round 5: 6 Hours of Aston Historic Reversed (AS4R)
Round 6: 3 Hours of Blackwood Grand Prix Reversed (BL1R)
Round 7: 12 Hours of Kyoto National (KY2)

Better:
Round 1: 3 Hours of Kyoto GP Long (KY3) w/Boothy chicane
Round 2: 3 Hours of South City Long (SO4)
Round 3: 6 Hours of Westhill International (WE1)
Round 4: 3 Hours of Fern Bay Gold (FE3)
Round 5: 6 Hours of Aston Grand Prix (AS5)
Round 6: 3 Hours of Blackwood Grand Prix (BL1)
Round 7: 12 Hours of Kyoto National (KY2)

[boothy]

Just, no. This isn't MoE.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

just, no. This isn't moe.

+1

[GianniC]

Seven rounds might be a bit a lot, if changes would happen there I'd indeed skip one or maybe even two.

About the tracks; not much difference in rev or not.
Most combo's I haven't even raced on yet (not really little XFG - UF1 tracks like I'm used to race on :p) so makes no difference in my eyes... :shrug:

[Deutschland2007]

Seven rounds might be a bit a lot, if changes would happen there I'd indeed skip one or maybe even two.

About the tracks; not much difference in rev or not.
Most combo's I haven't even raced on yet (not really little XFG - UF1 tracks like I'm used to race on :p) so makes no difference in my eyes... :shrug:

As far as I know there is only 1 race a month, so I think it should be ok.:)

[oldnavy]

when are you planing to start new season? :? becasue everything going way faster than in other ndr things

[DeadWolfBones]

;1250845']Okay, so as everyone saw, the 2009 IGTC season saw a lot of withdrawns coming from important well-established teams, because they couldn't keep enough interrest behind the scene. This gave a slot at the end of the season to the ex-iCON Team(The Road Crew nowadays), last on the reserve list, and to two new brand new entrants, Starlite and SRLT.

Let me refresh your memory, Starlite and SRLT just came during the season, submitted a sig-up entry, and were accepted without any test. This means that any random guy, whatever his pace could come and bring up two buddies, submit an entry, and eventually have the opportunity to race. So, this means that everyone willing to race in the IGTC, in theory could have been excluded from the GTAL whatever his experience.

Just for the record, I'd like to state that all mid-season applicants are vetted by the IGTC admins (based on LFSW stats, potential race pace, etc) before being allowed to join the series. We don't just let anyone in.

And re: SCCC's decision to drop out of the IGTC waiting list to focus on GTAL... I fully support them in that. I still believe GTAL should be strictly for drivers who do not have IGTC/MoE experience.

[oldnavy]

I think the lenght of the races should stay at 3 hours (6 hours in the final round) because you have to remember that this is a 'beginners league' for endurance racing and several people also want to participate in other leagues.

But that's just my opinion so let's see how the admins decide. ;)


In my opinion: Its very good to have longer races because: There is way more average drivers and if you want to gain experience and improve as many drivers as posible :thumb:

[J@tko]

As far as I know there is only 1 race a month, so I think it should be ok.:)

:nod:

when are you planing to start new season? :? becasue everything going way faster than in other ndr things

It'll be October/November time.

We'll have a test race at some point in September/October after we've collected entries. We've not decided on a combo yet, but it might be one of the tracks off the schedule.

EDIT: @ Yann - I've tried, but it's gonna be WE1R I'm afraid :(

[oldnavy]

:nod:



It'll be October/November time.

We'll have a test race at some point in September/October after we've collected entries. We've not decided on a combo yet, but it might be one of the tracks off the schedule.

:O nice to heard this

[Wilko868]

Just for the record, I'd like to state that all mid-season applicants are vetted by the IGTC admins (based on LFSW stats, potential race pace, etc) before being allowed to join the series. We don't just let anyone in.

You let us in. About 90% of the LFS population is faster and safer than me :razz:

[hyntty]

EDIT: @ Yann - I've tried, but it's gonna be WE1R I'm afraid :(

What does that mean? We1 is a 100 times more safer. And enjoyable.

[Deutschland2007]

What does that mean? We1 is a 100 times more safer. And enjoyable.

WE1R is safe too. There is only danger in 3 of the 4 brakingzones on the track. It´s more fun than WE1 in my opinion.

[CSF]

WE1r and WE1 both suck.

[Tomhah]

WE1R is better than WE1 imo:tilt:

edit: post number 600 :D

[pacesetter]

I think the schedule is fine as is, ;)

[Wilko868]

It's not going to change, so I don't know why people are arguing over it. :razz:

[Tomhah]

It's not going to change, so I don't know why people are arguing over it. :razz:

Arguing is funny, isnt it? :D

anyway, I like the shedule as it is :)

[AstroBoy]

No Kyoto Nat i r hate track, i rage RAWR!

Lol but seriously good choice :D

[Wilko868]

If you hadn't already noticed, sign-ups have opened. More info here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=61108).

[GianniC]

Q: Can the GTAL be moved to the NDR section ?
Q: Can the GTAL section otherwise be cleaned / pruned so only the 2010 Season topics are vissible ?

[dekojester]

Q: Can the GTAL be moved to the NDR section ?
Q: Can the GTAL section otherwise be cleaned / pruned so only the 2010 Season topics are vissible ?

Yes, I will take care of that soon.

d

[J@tko]

Q: Can the GTAL be moved to the NDR section ?
Q: Can the GTAL section otherwise be cleaned / pruned so only the 2010 Season topics are vissible ?

Yes and yes :) btw gianni, just to check did u receive a confirmation e-mail after ur sign up?

[GianniC]

Yes and yes :) btw gianni, just to check did u receive a confirmation e-mail after ur sign up?

Since my application mail I received one e-mail of my girlfriend, two e-mails for free viagra, one hair transplantation offer, four mails notifying me of my victory in an Italian and Korean lottery and one confirmation e-mail of GTAL administration to let me know that our application has been received in good health.

:tilt:

PS: I made a little typo on one of the names, I assume I can correct this later on with the "Round 1 confirmation line-up" ?

[MatzeXX]

Since my application mail I received one e-mail of [...]two e-mails for free viagra, one hair transplantation offer, four mails notifying me of my victory in an Italian and Korean lottery[...][/SIZE]

looool :D n1 mate ;)

[GianniC]

Any packs or info on the GTAL skins ?
We're reworking our skins atm for 2010... while we're at it we might as well already create our GTAL skin. :scratchch

[Gil07]

I missed this whole section because you decided to move it the obscurity of the NDR section... Booo! :razz:

Anyway, can we please have the start after the 16h? October is already such a busy month :/

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Anyway, can we please have the start after the 16h? October is already such a busy month :/

Round 1 - 14th November: 3 Hours of Blackwood Grand Prix Reversed (BL1R)
.

Taken from the official calendar;)

[Gil07]

;1257062']Taken from the official calendar;)

:D

Was just reading this thread, didn't check the other ones as I was so happy I found this one. I blame this being so hidden away :razz:

[dekojester]

I missed this whole section because you decided to move it the obscurity of the NDR section... Booo! :razz:

Anyway, can we please have the start after the 16h? October is already such a busy month :/

Yes, the official season starts in November. The only thing we have in October is a Test Race, with details to be announced next week. I will not make it compulsory for most teams, but we may make it compulsory for some teams as we deem fit. But as I said, more details to follow.

d

[dekojester]

Any packs or info on the GTAL skins ?
We're reworking our skins atm for 2010... while we're at it we might as well already create our GTAL skin. :scratchch

Skinpacks will be distributed to accepted teams at the end of September when we announce the accepted teams. Until then, there's still plenty of time. :thumbsup:

[boothy]

I think what the hackney carriage driver was meaning, is what will be in the skin kit? If last year or MoE/IGTC is anything to go by, it will be a sunstrip, and at least a numberboard on each door. :)

[GianniC]

Well that's obvious Dekojester. I indeed mean more what decals will be used; number on door or on the front, sunstrip, ...

[SasekPL]

I ran into this idea after news about releasing new track in LFS. Maybe we determine the last round as a question mark? I mean that when the Rockingham track will be released, we could use it as last 12h round of GTAL. If the Rockingham will not be realised on time, we could use other track in place.
I hope this is a good idea. ;)
What do you think?

[aobrien]

I ran into this idea after news about new track in LFS. Maybe we determine the last round as a question mark? I mean that when the Rockingham track will be released, we could use it as last 12h round of GTAL. If the Rockingham will not be realised on time, we could use other track in place.
I hope this is a good idea. ;)
What do you think?

Sounds good too me :thumbsup:

[Wilko868]

Rockingham won't be released in time, so no.

[TFalke55]

Rockingham will also be S3 so it wouldn't be good for this year's grid actually... Maybe for LFSCART next year but not for now...

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Rockingham will also be S3 so it wouldn't be good for this year's grid actually... Maybe for LFSCART next year but not for now...

Well, on the 250 posts I've read on Rockingham/S3, I saw only one guy saying that he's not willing to buy S3... But this might be something to consider, yes. I think you should just put a poll once we get closer to the season, only if we get more news on S3 of course:razz:

[SasekPL]

;1267467'] I think you should just put a poll once we get closer to the season, only if we get more news on S3 of course:razz:
Yes, a poll would be nice.

And I think that more than 90% of LFS players who have S2 licence will buy S3 in less than 2 weeks after release. But to be fair, this needs consideration in voting.

[Lombardi]

Racing in Rockingham track is a good idea , if not released in time , we can changed it sure.

[Wilko868]

Racing in Rockingham track is a good idea , if not released in time , we can changed it sure.
I am 99.9% sure that Rockingham will not be released by the final GTAL round. We have been told it is still a LONG time away, and the fact that people are already buzzing (like buzzy bees) about it worrys me. If i'm wrong, and it is released, we will consider it while I eat my lucky cowboy hat, but it WON'T be out.

I rest my case :razz:

[Deutschland2007]

I am 99.9% sure that Rockingham will not be released by the final GTAL round. We have been told it is still a LONG time away, and the fact that people are already buzzing (like buzzy bees) about it worrys me. If i'm wrong, and it is released, we will consider it while I eat my lucky cowboy hat, but it WON'T be out.

I rest my case :razz:

Atleast you wouldn´t get cutting at Rockingham. Such high curbs would kill everything, even FZRs.:D

[three_jump]

Excuse me for being lazy for not reading through 200 posts, but what is the status on MoE / ex MoE teams?

yes or no?

[Wilko868]

Excuse me for being lazy for not reading through 200 posts, but what is the status on MoE / ex MoE teams?

yes or no?
Teams are permitted, drivers will be checked for MoE/IGTC experience and success by the admin team.

[AstroBoy]

Anything to help us team less drivers? In this years season?

[hyntty]

Anything to help us team less drivers? In this years season?

Err like what?

[TFalke55]

... maybe a Grand Touring Amateur Team, wich won't score points.... never the less... why don't you try to find other racer to make a team... Such a GTA Team wouldn't score points, even if you're POTUS

[J@tko]

Incase people are looking for the rulebook, it's here: http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=91132&d=1251285409

I'll link it in the OP too.

It might be updated with various things, a post will be made here if this is the case :)

[jrd.racer]

not sure if this is the right place but will GTAL 2010 be broadcasted?

[GreyBull [CHA]]

not sure if this is the right place but will GTAL 2010 be broadcasted?

Deko said it will, AFAIK:thumbsup:

[[FAR]D1ggA]

not read all the posts now, but is there a new GTAL HP online, or when will it be released?

[dekojester]

D1ggA;1279265']not read all the posts now, but is there a new GTAL HP online, or when will it be released?

In the next week or two, I hope.

Just waiting on Ellis to get his shite together and do a few things I asked him to do.

We're preparing a whole new website for NDR, and each series we run will be included in the system.

And a few other things.

d

[[FAR]D1ggA]

kk thx

[jrd.racer]

Thanx Yaan!!

[oscarhardwick]

Im not sure if this is the right place, but didnt want to open any thread... what is happening with GTAL skins? may I ask?

Oscar.

[J@tko]

Im not sure if this is the right place, but didnt want to open any thread... what is happening with GTAL skins? may I ask?

Oscar.
The skin packs are very nearly done. We just need to sort out one small thing, then we can release them :)

[oscarhardwick]

ok... just to say, only 1 driver dropped from the LLM GTAL team, I understand thats not the issue for the team on the whole... but im sure that we had enough drivers :)

oh well, will talk about it another time,

Oscar.

[Bmxtwins]

ok... just to say, only 1 driver dropped from the LLM GTAL team, I understand thats not the issue for the team on the whole... but im sure that we had enough drivers :)

oh well, will talk about it another time,

Oscar.

Jakey did? Guess well have to update that skin again lawl.

[oscarhardwick]

no... but he didnt, thats the thing :P, its you, me, jake, dan and Mauka.

[Pablo Donoso]

I would love to enter too, but I don't have a wheel yet, my controller deadzones aren't exactly the most precise, and the gas/throttle are buttons set to "on/off" as opposed to a % value like pedals would do.

Perhaps for I'll get one for Christmas, instead of new carb jets for my old CBR... xD