Aston Club (AS2) hotlap world records

[felplacerad]

I've noticed at the current world record holder of the fxo/as2 combo is using a rather, let's call it wide, line during his out lap. Would you guys concider this ok? At the moment it would be kind of hard to prevent but maybe it's something for eric to consider for upcoming versions of LFS?

[MyBoss]

I hope noone uses this in the quali session today.

[felplacerad]

I hope noone uses this in the quali session today.

I think Richard will take care of anyone who does :)

[Theafro]

Kinda like KY GP rev in the RB4, where Biggie leaps right over the kurbs. you wouldn't do it in a race due to the damage caused, but it's HLVC OK.

[WGooden]

and button clutch

[Becky Rose]

let's call it wide, line during his out lap
I love Snetterton (a track in Norfolk, UK) because of two corners. Russell bend which is a high decelleration right hander that leads directly into a tight left and forces you to take an out-in-in line through it, which I find uniquely interesting.

The other curiosity that appeals to me about Snetterton is the exit of turn 2, where not a single car in any formula exits the track using the tarmac. Over the white line on the exit there's this broken up tarmac which still grips and using it lets you raise your exit speed considerably. The change in texture makes the lap more interesting.

I've seen a few LFS league rulebooks where they ban use of wide lines, to me that isn't racing. The tarmac bit is your guaranteed safely safely area, but the broken rubble on the outside ... now that's where you need poise and balance to stay on track and really knock out those fast times.

Surface changes are part of racing, why outlaw them just because somebody with a pen close to the rulebook doesn't like them?

A race track is more than just the black stuff, racing is about navigating the circuit as quickly as possible and beating the opposition. It's not a gymkarna, there's no points for style and grace.

[NotAnIllusion]

I think the issue here is that AS2 (Club) doesn't even use that part of the track where you see the car in the image. The track comes down from the right side down the hill into the hairpin and continues to the finish line, never using the part of the track where that car is. I've never seen something like this being done IRL.

[Chaos]

well in all racing, the track is defined by white lines on both sides, even curbs are not part of the track and their purpose is to tell the driver he overdone the corner... but as someone in f1 said, every race driver will cut the track unless there is a trench with spears...

[NotAnIllusion]

I'd like to see under the current F1 quali regulations all the cars in one lump cramming into that small space that's waaaaay off the line to start their fast lap though, lol. :p

[Becky Rose]

Those who worry about wr's are happy to find any and all advantage from the circuit layout. I'm more worried about racing myself - where all the lap times seem a good 3-4 seconds slower anyway, and not all of them are because of 'exploits', they're because of dedicated 1 lap setups and driving style (use of walls/kerbs you wouldn't normally risk).

I remember Brabham breaking the world F1 tyre change pit stop world record in a T.V. show when I was a youngster, I wondered if it should count because it wasn't during a Grand Prix in Grand Prix conditions with Grand Prix pressure... It counted.

At the end of the day the driver in question navigated a lap faster than anyone else has ever done in that class of car, surely that's what wr's are all about - and nothing more?

[felplacerad]

Those who worry about wr's are happy to find any and all advantage from the circuit layout. I'm more worried about racing myself - where all the lap times seem a good 3-4 seconds slower anyway, and not all of them are because of 'exploits', they're because of dedicated 1 lap setups and driving style (use of walls/kerbs you wouldn't normally risk).

I remember Brabham breaking the world F1 tyre change pit stop world record in a T.V. show when I was a youngster, I wondered if it should count because it wasn't during a Grand Prix in Grand Prix conditions with Grand Prix pressure... It counted.

At the end of the day the driver in question navigated a lap faster than anyone else has ever done in that class of car, surely that's what wr's are all about - and nothing more?

imho it's not a question wether if it's a race, quali or hotlap, the rules really have to be drawn somewhere. plus, if the developers were to share your opinion they wouldn't have incorporated HLVC, right? :)

to me, it's clearly an exploit ...

[Tukko]

racing and hotlapping are two completely different things.. if you take your line like that in a close race you'll surely lose positions.. :smileypul Anyhow the track layout is same for everyone.. maybe he gained 0.05 sec by using this extra "runway", but everyone's free to try the same trick until we get some wall to prevent it.. :thumb:

[filur]

Whatever it is, it makes the record time less valid for when i'm on aston club in the fxo checking the time to see how fast the car can actually get round, and imho that's a bad thing.

[MyBoss]

as long as people don't use it in quali I don't care to much. I think its a "no no" thing though.

[Funnybear]

hot lapping is a law unto itself. I don't worry about it because it's a world I neither have the patience or the skill for. I like to race and in racing I can be seconds of the WR and still have a kick arse, Storming Norman, Shock and Awe race. A WR lap or setup bares virually no correlation to a racing setup and to be frank I'm more concerned about making my tyres last a race distance than trying to shatter WR's.

Let the kids play at WR's if they want to. They will always find unorthadox lines or so called exploits to get a fast 1 lap. But thats the point, it's one lap. And anyway, he is still technically using the circuit provided. To be honest I think thats what makes a winning team. Even Ferrari have been accused of using an exploit in this years F1 season with their rear wing. But, it's what makes them commpetative. Of course a team will try everything they can to get a winning edge over the competition. That is what competition is all about.

If it's in the game, it's within the rules. If the Devs or the community feel it's unfair then it will be addressed. But intill then I, for one, don't feel I can critisise.

[Vykos69]

LOL? You must be kidding, right? If there's place, racer will use it. IRL same as here. So just live with it, I consider it fine.

[filur]

LOL? You must be kidding, right? If there's place, racer will use it. IRL same as here. So just live with it, I consider it fine.

You did note he's actually left the track / racing line by ~50 meters? I don't think it would be accepted in a real qualifying session to go 50m. off track to get a longer "straight".

[Rappa Z]

In hotlapping wide lines should be allowed. In Nascar they stay high before a hotlap so they gain speed going down the hill from the banking.

[filur]

It's not a wide line, it's 50 meters off track, stopped, set up for a longer straight.

[tristancliffe]

Oh well, just do the same when you're hotlapping. Don't do it during real qualification though, as it's not in the spirit of competition, but in HLVC I think it's acceptable.

[sil3ntwar]

They used to do it in F1 a long time ago at one of the french tracks. And martin brundle said they used to do it at spa when the timing line was just before eau rogue they would stay high up at la source and get a good drive down the hill.

[Vykos69]

You did note he's actually left the track / racing line by ~50 meters? I don't think it would be accepted in a real qualifying session to go 50m. off track to get a longer "straight".
Is there tarmac or is there tarmac? That part belongs to track, so stop whining. ;)

[NotAnIllusion]

They used to do it in F1 a long time ago at one of the french tracks. And martin brundle said they used to do it at spa when the timing line was just before eau rogue they would stay high up at la source and get a good drive down the hill.
Good to know :smileypul

[Batterypark]

Is there tarmac or is there tarmac? That part belongs to track, so stop whining. ;)

It doesn't belong to the track configuration he's SUPPOSED to be driving. Next to the developers, you're the last person I would have expected to say what you just said.

[GP4Flo]

A simple solution would be to place some cones there, so the hotlap would get invalid when you try to drive on the other track config. But that's up to Eric.

[Vykos69]

It doesn't belong to the track configuration he's SUPPOSED to be driving. Next to the developers, you're the last person I would have expected to say what you just said.Well, first of all I'm racer, and as also written up there from silentwar:

They used to do it in F1 a long time ago at one of the french tracks. And martin brundle said they used to do it at spa when the timing line was just before eau rogue they would stay high up at la source and get a good drive down the hill.

If there is tarmac and space that helps being faster (turn 1 A1 GP e.g.), racer will use it. I might be a bit harsh in my words, but this "it's not really fair to use what is given" is not my type of competition. Especially, cause it isnt a bug.

[biggie]

Kinda like KY GP rev in the RB4, where Biggie leaps right over the kurbs. you wouldn't do it in a race due to the damage caused, but it's HLVC OK.

Everyone does it, it is common in hotlapping. Not only on Kyoto, also on Fern Bay (green, club, gold - watch those incredibly high curbs) and some other tracks. As long as the hotlap is valid, it is valid. As long as the suspension doesn't break and you can go on driving without problems, it is fine!
This behaviour really is in the instincts of a driver trying to go as fast as possible. Who is to judge whether it's not "noble" or not "righteous" to cut a certain chicane or to use every centimeter of track available?
The only judge can be HLVC, because none of us can really be the impartial arbitrator. There would always be controversies about what should be and what should not be...
It's basically the same in racing - which driver was in fault and caused the incident? Each participant will tell you otherwise, which is why you need a judge - or a jury.

As of this moment, HLVC says the lap is valid. That's all we can refer to. Everyone is free to use every centimeter of the track which is considered valid. Moral preconceptions aside - hotlapping is about going as fast as you possibly can. No compromises, just you, the car, the setup and the clock.

Imo, there are two ways to resolve this issue:
1.) fix HLVC (or the tracks) and make it more strict (and while we're at it, please make HLVC not register those strips of grass/gravel which can't possibly be used for cheating/cutting. Especially because tires can get dirty now and it almost never pays off to cut the track much.)
2.) establish an admin staff which checks every hotlap for validity and "racing ethics" before it will be accepted for the hotlap charts

I fully agree you shouldn't be intentionally smacking walls to brake faster (like sprint2), because that could be considered cheating. So could be button clutch, but there have been to many debates on this already.
However, using odd setups due to incomplete physics is not cheating. We are all using those partitially buggy and incomplete physics with its own dynamics and requirements.
We cannot stick to what applies to real life only, because LFS isn't real life (yet). LFS is LFS, it has its limitations. And within its limitations, you have to try to find out what works best.
Again: who is to judge which setup is ethically right or wrong? Using a high nose on the downforce cars - what exactly defines "high"? Will there be regulations on what the maximum height of the nose is and otherwise you will be accused of bug exploitation? We shouldn't make our lives harder than necessary. We should learn to live with the limitations of LFS until the next patch arrives.
No harm is done when we have equal conditions for everyone. As many of you say - all that matters is good racing. Doesn't matter if its a bobby car, a bicycle, a bucket rolling downhill or an FO8 with normal ride height or raised nose - as long as the conditions are equal and there's some fair competition.
If you can't detach yourself from your reality-focussedness in terms of setup or the nature of hotlapping, then fine - live with being slower and voluntarily placing yourself at a disadvantage. At least you've demonstrated how stubborn and true to your principles you can be :P

/me donates 2ct to this thread

[Vykos69]

never thought biggie and me would share opinions once :o ;)

[tinvek]

if im reading the pic correctly hes starting his out lap from off circuit to gain speed before the start line


nothing new, check out rosberg in the williams in 82 (i think) at spa, he reversed right up to barrier at the hairpin before the run to eau rouge. in those days the timing line was on the run down from the hairpin and the barrier a long way down the escape road. he gained a good 200yds at full throttle but in his case mucked it up at end of lap by sliding wide at hairpin

[Gentlefoot]

.. :smileypul Anyhow the track layout is same for everyone.. maybe he gained 0.05 sec by using this extra "runway", but everyone's free to try the same trick until we get some wall to prevent it.. :thumb:

Spot on Tukko!

Instead of moaning about it people should embrace it and try and use it to improve their own hotlap times. If they don't hotlap then why do they care about WRs anyway?

[Funnybear]

To be fair I can kinda see his point. But maybe he's only upset because he didn't think of it first. If it was him that considered using that extra 'runway' to launch his lap with then it would have been someone else complaining.

At the end of the day. It's a hotlap. And the term is serlf explanitory. For me a hot lap is a balls out, no prisoners kinda lap. A lap that shreds your tyres and kills the suspension. And that is the point. It's the sacrifice of longevity for a quick fix. A light that burns twice as bright and all that. A hot lap should be using everything that the circuit and the cars have to offer in the sole aim of getting the fastest lap. Otherwise, why bother?

Like I said. If this paricular example of track expliotation (and don't confuse the usage here, I think too many people put 'exploit' down as being a back concept. It ain't if it doesn't break teh rules.) is considered unfair or just plain wrong, then it will get changed. An obstruction or circuit change put in place that will make the hotlaps comply to what people consider fair and/or correct. Although quite often what is fair and what is technically correct arn't always bed fellows.

[Hyperactive]

HLVC = lap is ok

Hotlapping is all about this, taking 100% use of what you have been given. I don't like it but it is still HLVC and that is all that matters.

And it is just a hotlap, sheesh! :D

[filur]

And i find it interesting that questioning this thing automatically becomes whining or moaning, all i've done is state my opinion in very simple terms.

[Gentlefoot]

I was referring to the original post that started the thread. The author was requesting that this type of thing should be banned. If that's not a moan I don't know what is.

[felplacerad]

I was referring to the original post that started the thread. The author was requesting that this type of thing should be banned. If that's not a moan I don't know what is.

It seems like alot of people have intepreted my original post as "moany", and in a second post i actually did say i considered it an exploit. though, the original question was "do you consider this ok, or should it be fixed?" or something to the same effect. i will not even comment the guy who claimed i made the post beacuse i was upset beacuse i didnt think of the thing first. actully, I wouldn't say that i've actually taken a stand in the matter, see, i also use some of the current exploits in lfs, the high-noise exploit for example.

if im not mistaken, there's been a discussion on the high-nose dealie? and if im not mistaken, most people want it fixed, right? beacuse it's an exploit. there's no need to start flaming me just beacuse i was the one who started the discussion.

[Gentlefoot]

Point taken. You were starting a discussion and not maoning - I apologise.

I just feel we have been provided with an environment in which to compete against each other. And ofcourse poeple will make use of anything in that environment to get an advantage over the competition i.e. wide lines on corner entry.

This thing happens IRL too. The most successful competitors in motorsport will search the regs looking for loop holes that could give them an advantage over the competition. This is exactly the same thing in my view.

[Rappa Z]

At Indinapolis in the F1 season they go over the white line in the second to last turn. Even in the race they do it.

[filur]

And ofcourse poeple will make use of anything in that environment to get an advantage over the competition.

The last online game i played "seriously" saw new features over time, one of these was the ability to turn a specificly complex maneuver into the touch of a button. This might seem very dissimilar, but the interesting thing was most players stayed away from it, as it wasn't accepted by the community. Players who did use it weren't necessarily flamed, and AFAIK never locked out of any organized competition / leagues, but it still never got "popular", since it was ..
not in the spirit of competition

[Funnybear]

At Indinapolis in the F1 season they go over the white line in the second to last turn. Even in the race they do it.

?? do you meant the one out of the pits? Or the one onto the oval banking? Is there a rule in the Nascar or Indy that you can't cross the white line?

[-V17-]

This thing happens IRL too. The most successful competitors in motorsport will search the regs looking for loop holes that could give them an advantage over the competition. This is exactly the same thing in my view.
This example isn't even so bad, on Blackwood GP there are two exploits in the physics and the HLVC, and it's blatantly obvious they should not be allowed. And yet, it will be HLVC ok. I saw a few guys use one of the exploits, but they later removed their hotlaps from lfsworld.
It's a bit hard comparing such physics bugs and HLVC flaws to RL.

[Speed Soro]

1 - The picture is not from AS-2, but from any other Aston's layout.

2 - There is nothing wrong with the car position. It isn't cutting anything there. It's just appoint the tangency, and that is a legal drive.

Point me where is the cheat there.

[Shotglass]

as far as the using bits of tarmac that dont belong to the layout thing goes id say so what but when it comes to hotlaps that damage the cars (like the so tricks biggie mentioned) i think there should be a threshold for how much damage a car may take before the lap gehts hlvc invalid

[-V17-]

1 - The picture is not from AS-2, but from any other Aston's layout.

You can download the WR for AS-2 and check it out ;)

[dontsimon]

I think people are misunderstanding where the advantage is in that screen shot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it isn't about 'cutting', but that the driver has used a piece of road that is not part of that track configuration in order to give a longer and therefore faster run upto the s/f line for the start of the hotlap. Is this right?

[Vain]

Yes. You drive off the "usual" line and take every inch of the track to get a bit more speed over the finishing line to get an extra time-bonus for your hotlap.

Vain

[dontsimon]

Well, if HLVC doesn't see/stop it, and if it's there for everyone equally to do (even if it hasn't occured to most) it can't really be considered cheating.

[filur]

Nobody said it was cheating to begin with, question is if it's sportsmanship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship).

1 - The picture is not from AS-2, but from any other Aston's layout.
This is a thread about the as2 wr hotlap, with a screenshot from the as2 wr hotlap, logic isn't tricky here.

[NotAnIllusion]

I don't mind that ideology at all and do use every inch available in hotlapping. What gets to me with this particular one is that to get the car into the position shown in the pics early on, one must drive backwards on the track and/or reverse. Driving backwards on a race track looking for an extra 2 metres sounds a bit.. "off".

Yes yes thank you I am aware that ppl drive backwards all the time to warm their tires in LFS, but that's not the same thing because 1. you can accomplish the same thing by doing a warm-up lap in the right direction and 2. in real life the tires are brought as close to the optimum temperature before The Lap.

[PLAYLIFE]

Nobody said it was cheating to begin with, question is if it's sportsmanship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship).


This is a thread about the as2 wr hotlap, with a screenshot from the as2 wr hotlap, logic isn't tricky here.

So it's within the rules, but breaking the spirit of the rules - A typical FIA answer :razz: