stereotypes and stuff... [Archive]

Homeless_Drunk

27th March 2006, 08:34

I ghost these forums quite often...never really bother to post much...

After reading a few threads about different topics I have noticed that the "NASCAR is stupid" topic comes up a lot. My opinion about this topic may be bias because I am a NASCAR fan, but who cares. It really cooks my noodle (i am being polite about this) when people say "NASCAR IS FOR DUMB AMERICAN REDNECKS WHO WEAR GUNS, DRINK WHISKEY,LIVE IN TEXAS AND TURNING LEFT IS STUPID"...anyone who thinks that gets a big "**** YOU"...everyone on these forums shares one thing in common, the passion of racing (or something along the lines of that)...racing...thats a thing with wheels that competes against other things on wheels...who cares how its done, or what its done in...racing is racing...if you dont like it...then shut up and leave your lame opinion to yourself...every form of racing takes some kind of skill...even drag racing, anyone who thinks it doesnt can go down to their local strip and see how many consistant runs they can make...its not easy...bracket racing takes some skill...it just pisses me off that everyone stereotypes us as a bunch of hicks....hell i can do the same...all french people wear doofy hats, walk around with big loaves of bread, have little mustaches, and sleep all the time...all germans walk around in their leiderhozen, drink lots of beer and yodel or something...all british have messed up teeth, drink tea everyday at 2pm and smoke big sherlock holmes pipes....see, its dumb...there's no point...it pisses me off...just because we have a few stupid people doesnt mean you dont have a few nutcases in your countries either...

I am sorry if i pissed anyone off...this is just MY opinion and thats that....i didnt mean to offend anyone or anything of that type of thing...

speedfreak227

27th March 2006, 08:43

i respect that drag racing and circle track racing DO TAKE CONSIDERABLE SKILL. :thumb:

BUT.... i find that skill is rarely transferable to any other forms of racing because it is so purpose specific.

if you look at road racers (guys that turn both ways) that have moved into circle track racing in the USA, many of them are quite successful. but when you look at the reverse, most guys who have come up through the circle track system can't make that jump to road racing. just look at when nascar goes to sears point. many of the regular circle trackers get sidelined and hired guns like Boris Said get pulled in.

personally, in real life and in video games, i like a good variety of turns. i like a long straight with a tight hairpin where you go from 6th to 1st or 2nd gear. i like chicanes when if you clip the curbs just right you can absolutely RIP through there.

that being said, i've never driven an oval in real life though i've riden my motorcycle on an oval in an industrial complex when they had paved the roads but built no buildings. after about 5 laps i was bored. same goes with video games. the monotony of just 2 or 3 corners just doesn't hold my attention.

speedfreak227

Vain

27th March 2006, 09:04

What is the aim of the discussion?
I and a lot other people don't like oval racing because we think it is boring. You and other people like oval racing because you think it is interesting.
So what is there to be discussed? The matter that oval racing is only common in america? Well, that's the case with a lot of things. All cultures are different from other cultures. Is that what you want to discuss?

Vain

danowat

27th March 2006, 09:37

You are of course entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else.

I am in no doubt that oval racing takes skill, but man o man is it as dull as ditchwater to watch, it might be a media thing, but whenever I have seen oval racing, the spectators are your usual stereo-typical slack-jawed yokels.

The other American thing I hate is baseball, how you guys can sit there for 3 hours and watch this is beyond me.

While we are on the subject of stereotypes, in my experiance Americans are some of the worse people for lumping different cultures/countries into stereotypes.

Dan,

Theafro

27th March 2006, 10:23

I think the main reason NASCAR is so popular over there is that it's spectator friendly,,,, it's gotta be cool sitting trackside with 30 or so V8s all humming round at 200mph.... even so,,,, it's all tactics and caution flags,,,, not very exciting racing.....................................

Drag racing is F'ing awesome tho',,,, I love it.... theres not too much that compare with watching a 10,000 Bhp car hit 300mph in 4.5 seconds....

BTW you've just reinforced a few of my own american stereotypes,,,,, although i might offend somebody if I elaborate further:D

(gotta love the punctuation :P)

XCNuse

27th March 2006, 11:12

The other American thing I hate is baseball, how you guys can sit there for 3 hours and watch this is beyond me.
yall do the same .. but with cricket lol

its like they say, you have to enjoy it to endure it.. its like watching a race.. wait.. i dont do that either hmm.. okay well.. i guess im not helping lol cause i .. really dont see how people can just sit and watch sports.. period

Hyperactive

27th March 2006, 13:35

It's the same thing with everything that is little different from the mainstream, may it be drifting, tractor pulling or nascar. They are looked down just because people think there is no skill or it is just boring.

I like nascar in small bits but I couldn't watch it more than 30 min straight. But when it comes to racing! I used to dislike nascars before but when I bought my first nascar game (just because it had good physics lol) I got this enlightened feeling. Driving a nascar is fun! All the action in shorter races is just so overwhelmingly exciting. Driving lap after lap door-to-door with someone trying to make a pass (/ trying not to let him). Take 30 laps in bristol or 20 at some "boring" track and you will have to drive at 100% all the time.

100% support to you, Homeless_Drunk :)

danowat

27th March 2006, 14:12

hehehe, nearly every American I have spoken to says, when asked where I live, (in an American accent) "Is that near London", errrr....no, London is one of many Cities in the UK :)

Dan,

mrodgers

27th March 2006, 18:28

I do believe that in Homeless_Drunk's stereotyping comments up there is being used as an example.

I myself am getting tired of hearing "Nascar sucks" and "Nascar doesn't take any skill, they only turn left". As well as the america is a bunch of "rednecks" and how the cost of living is so cheap in america. Only way the cost of living in america is cheap is if you walk around with the bosses you-know-what hanging out of your mouth. If you are a regular old manufacturing line worker, then you barely have the money to put gas (petrol, before someone flames on that) in the tank to get to work. Try supporting a wife, kids, home, and have a decent car to drive on my salary. And I'm the highest paid "hourly" employee in our plant right now. I don't have enough cash after taxes, insurance, groceries, utilities, etc. to make it to work for 2 weeks. It's why my credit card bill goes up higher around $50 per month even though I pay $100 on it. Things would be alot easier if everyone wasn't so greedy and didn't send their kids to be brought up by strangers so that both parents can work to afford that ridiculously overpriced SUV and house that's 5 times bigger than they need.

It is ok to have an opinion and say "Nascar isn't my thing, I think it's boring." But to constantly flame it as sucking and taking no skill, then enough is enough. I see many here in this thread who change their comments than what has been posted in the past. Same with the drifting / racing flaming and the "newbie" flaming. Everyone flames, then someone starts a new thread screaming about all the ridiculous flaming and those same who flamed post in it changing their tune.

I can say that all the flaming and piss-poor attitudes lately isn't only this forum. I frequent many other forums and am starting to see the same thing in them as well, especially with the "newbie" flaming.

Nice post here, homeless_drunk. It is beginning to be much needed lately.

Rant mode off.

sgt.flippy

27th March 2006, 18:59

Who says america's living cheap? When I imagine an american house, it's always wood, indeed, the way expensive SUV in front of the door that burns more gas than two sedans. But I feel sorry for you, paying so many taxes, and you can't even go see a doctor without asking for a credit card first. Here in Belgium there is now running a commercial about x-number of years health care, and it's about an american news guy, that had an accident in Belgium, and he's telling all these great things like: they helped me immediately without even asking for my credit card!

Well, if you pay a lotta taxes for that, and creating wars (cause that's the only thing you actually hear around here about america), I would stop paying and move out.

MAGGOT

27th March 2006, 19:15

Personally, it's not oval racing I don't like, it's NASCAR in particular. I don't like the way the series is run, I don't like the hugely money-driven commercial attitude of it now, and I don't like the glamorization of all the bull. I want racing, and NASCAR is forgetting that.

I quite enjoy oval racing, I love going up to the Mosport oval on saturday nights and watching the local weekenders race. Great racing action, great fun. The same thing has happened in Formula 1.

ALL forms of SPORT take skill, not just racing. Some sports may be easier to grasp than another, but they all require skill.

On the topic of stereotypes, quite frankly, don't take it to heart. People have their opinions. If they want to belittle you, your country, your culture, or their past times - let them. It's not that big of a deal. Everytime I go to Florida, me and my family always get the "Did you Canadians have to buy a new wardrobe for your vacation down here?" and the like. We just laugh it off. Fact is, in the middle of summer here in southern Ontario, it actually gets just as hot - and even a little hotter - than Florida at times.

Thats really all I have to say on the matter..

MAGGOT

th84

27th March 2006, 19:21

Some people like apples, and then there are those who prefer oranges! Does liking either or make you a better human being?? I dont think so!

And not ALL American's are behind our oil loving president! His poll #'s are the lowest for any American president in history(i think), so if you want to flame Americans for our leader, just flame the idiots that elected that moron..... TWICE!! :P
For the record, i voted "none of the above"!!

As far as living cheap, I make about $1500 (approx) bi-weekly before taxes, after uncle sam gets his $500(approx), and the mortgage company gets their 700$, as well as all utilities, gas, pampers, food etc etc, im lucky to have enough $$ for cigs for the week!! I think me and m.rodgers are in the same boat!! I cant get these credit card companies to stop calling me!!! Luckily both my cars are paid off and my bike is soon to be, so ill be saving some $$$$!!

I have lost alot of intrest in nascar for the same reasons as maggot!! It has gottem to money driven and they are forgetting where they came from!!! Taking more and more of the good tracks away for places like Texas and California is just plain sad!! At least i still have moto gp!!

sgt.flippy

27th March 2006, 19:34

You could start saving those $$$$ now if you'd quite smoking. It's weird how many people use smoking to relax, while often they would have an easier financial life if they wouldn't. I'm not sure how much it is, but I know cigs cost a whole lotta money if you count everything together.

th84

27th March 2006, 19:37

Ive done the math...$3.00 a pack, 1 pack a day = approx $1100.00/year cigs are cheap compared to my other relaxing "tool" :)

if i quit, which i plan to do before my little one turns 3(about 4 months), i will kill my wife which would cost me alot more than $1100 :P

I never said that the cost of living here was either high or low! I cant comment on that as ive never lived anywhere else!! I was just breaking down my personal situation, which in no way speaks for any other Americans!!

L(Oo)ney

27th March 2006, 20:09

At least i still have moto gp!!

Yeah, its real fun watching rossi win every race. Yawn.

If you want the best of tarmac motorcycling, you watch the IOM TT, or the northwest 200. Road racing adds that extra element of danger, which makes it much more fun to watch then any moto GP race, imo.

Then if you want even more really good racing, Supermoto and motocross is where its at. :tilt:

[edit] Just to keep on topic, i think nascar is boring. The only time its interesting, is when theres a big crash.

th84

27th March 2006, 20:16

Supermoto and motocross is where its at

I agree! I watch all forms of motorcycle racing!! It just seems that the moto gp races are the most convient for my time schedule(sundays around lunch time)!!I always seem to miss the supermoto races! Now motocross, I really love watching Ricky Carmichael win over and over... yawn :P
I go to the georgia dome sometimes and watch the motocross boys do there thing!!

GaryArm

27th March 2006, 20:44

I can't see why yer man that posted the first post on this topic went from "Nascar sucks" to "Americans are all rednecks"...I can't see who said that. But anyway, an opinion is an opinion. If someone doesnt agree with your opinion, then so be it, let sleeping dogs lie and all that. I really believe people take life far too seriously at times, if someone stereotypes you because of where you're from, laugh it off! People hear I'm from Ireland and immediately think I have ginger hair, wear a green hat 24hours a day, and am drunk 35hours a day. But it's simply not true! So lighten up!!

And Looney, you're damn right about the Isle Of Man TT and the Northwest 200, unbelievably good entertainment. I go to the Northwest almost every year, and my god is it fun!

L(Oo)ney

27th March 2006, 21:11

I really love watching Ricky Carmichael win over and over... yawn :P

Fair point, ricky does win quite a bit, but he's ALWAYS challenged for it, and the first three places are usually close i think, compared to moto GP. In moto gp it usually goes something like this - Rossi gets the lead, pulls away, and for the rest of the race he's out on his own with a 1 min lead with no chance of anyone catching him, unless his bike blows up or something.

Not bagging his skills, because he is a great rider/racer, but when hes pretty much riding round the track on his own, it becomes really dull.

Still beats nascar though! :razz:

L(Oo)ney

27th March 2006, 21:17

I go to the Northwest almost every year, and my god is it fun!

I bet it is!

I've only seen videos/tv coverage of this awesome race, watching those bikes fly by at 180+ on real roads in the flesh must be an amazing experience.

Will have to come over there one year to experience it. Same with IOM TT. :thumb:

XCNuse

27th March 2006, 23:56

anyways, back on topic of stereotypes... i think im gonna have to say that stereotyping stuff, is just how we learn, because all it really is, is just word association; mice:cheese:milk:cows, etc
so we just apply it to one thing and dont look at the other details (smaller or not, the stereotype is just what is most visible)
a mouse may not necesarily eat only cheese, and there are tons of types of cheese, and there are a variety of milks (whole, 2%, 1% etc), and there are several types of cows, some for milking, some for meat, etc

so there it is.. stereotypes are just word associations, and an easy way for the human mind to remembering things

andy_bonjon

28th March 2006, 00:46

hehehe, nearly every American I have spoken to says, when asked where I live, (in an American accent) "Is that near London", errrr....no, London is one of many Cities in the UK :)

Dan,

to be fair i think it is probably the same for a lot of us asking an american where they are from! i know i would have trouble!

Its always hard for me when an american asks where im from and i say Jersey.... i havent come across someone (YET) who understands where it is! :D

But the funniest bit is when you explain that New Jersey is actually named AFTER Jersey in the Channel Islands and NOT the other way around well they always just laugh not believing you saying that you must be from England and that you actually still mean New Jersey! :shrug: :schwitz: :D

Although having said that i bet someone will come back saying they have been to Jersey and know where it is!

Forbin

28th March 2006, 00:49

Although having said that i bet someone will come back saying they have been to Jersey and know where it is!
I live in Jersey. It's on the east coast, to the east of Pennsylvania, south of New York. :tilt: :D

http://www.jersey.com/wij/wij_en.htm

mrodgers

28th March 2006, 01:01

Apples for teh win, stoopid orange-loving idiots wouldn't know a good fruit if it bit them on the ass.
Oh, come on now! Now you're really pushing me, Kev! You want apples? I'll give you freakin apples! I have about a billion of 'em all over the yard that I have to pick up or mow over every fall. Red delicious, golden delicious, granny smiths, Macintosh, all kinds. Freakin previous owner and his freakin apple trees. I'd die for just one orange tree!

On a positive note, he did plant about 4 peach trees. Now thats something. You need a bib when you eat them, they are that sweet and juicy.

Oh, and I want to specify here before any flaming happens, that I'm only being sarcastic with ole Kev there. It is true though, I have so many freakin apple trees it drives me nuts (er, have two of those too, nut trees).

Madman_CZ

28th March 2006, 01:16

theres no need to flame other forms of racing just because you dont agree with them ......thats your opinion which you are entitled to but by postin here it will just upset a few people who are big fans of such and such motorsport...

Personally i find watching Nascar a little booring only due to the fact the races are very long and it is just on an oval but there is action! i think the same about f1 sometimes as someraces are absolutely unentertaining!. but thats just me, i also dont enjoy sports like cricket, baseball, basketball drag racing etc....

but i respect that other people will love them... everyone is different and has different opinions about things.

Too often people flame other stuff too quickly......

Just like Truck Racing (Semi racing for the americans without the trailer:thumb:) which is a sport i enjoy
what a great sport! but many people think its absolutely s***e.. thats fine...

mad....

argh this thread is pointless!!

ohhh its 2.13am damn!!!

tristancliffe

28th March 2006, 02:45

I like bananas. Or the occasional kiwi. Or, simply, a nice chocolate chip muffin (not technically a fruit before you doom-mongerers come and try and trick me!)

mrodgers

28th March 2006, 03:47

You need a bib when you eat because you like Nascar.

:haha:
ROFLMAO Kev!

Now where's the middle finger smiley, LOL.

MAGGOT

28th March 2006, 04:31

I like bananas. Or the occasional kiwi. Or, simply, a nice chocolate chip muffin

I prefer a nice Roast Beef with Yorkshire Pudding (SP?) or a nice big Steak <DROOL>

Damn.. now I'm hungry, and the caf here at college closed already :( Not like they serve anything worth eating anyways..

MAGGOT

Vendetta

28th March 2006, 07:22

Sorry but I just had to put down my cup of tea, put out my pipe and remove the bizarre steel wire contraption from my mouth for long enough to say that your stereotype of English people really bothers me.

LOL :D

Vain

28th March 2006, 09:12

Or, simply, a nice chocolate chip muffinIt's not a fruit? Darn, I guess I'll have to tell my chocolate chip muffin tree that it isn't possible and that it has to grow some other fruit this year. Any suggestions?

Oh, and by the way, in germany about every school kid has to learn a map of the USA at least once. So even after school a lot of the people should have a general idea about most american states. That is of course dependant on the particular school they visited and wether they payed attention :) .

Vain

Smax

28th March 2006, 11:46

Nice one... the original poster didn't say "I am an American" but with given that it tells you where he comes from under his name he didn't have to.

He then proceeds to make a post basically saying "I wish the rest of the world would stop being ignorant and bashing us for liking the things we do, if you don't like them then it's you who has the problem not us, and don't expect us to change our ways. Then he finishes of by ironically whining about sterotyping

Well a stereotype can only exist if there are more than a few people in the world who fit into it, guess which category I happen to think he falls into....

dave4002000

28th March 2006, 13:07

sgt.flippy

28th March 2006, 13:30

You need a bib when you eat because you like Nascar.

:haha:

You made my day, I was laughing out loud, and still am when I read it again. :thumb:

tristancliffe

28th March 2006, 14:03

It's not a fruit? Darn, I guess I'll have to tell my chocolate chip muffin tree that it isn't possible and that it has to grow some other fruit this year. Any suggestions?

Oh, and by the way, in germany about every school kid has to learn a map of the USA at least once. So even after school a lot of the people should have a general idea about most american states. That is of course dependant on the particular school they visited and wether they payed attention :) .

Vain

Two suggestions - don't tell it, and tell me where this cake tree is, cos I want in!

sinbad

28th March 2006, 15:01

In moto gp it usually goes something like this - Rossi gets the lead, pulls away, and for the rest of the race he's out on his own with a 1 min lead with no chance of anyone catching him, unless his bike blows up or something.

It's actually not very often that a race goes like that. Many people seem to be under the impression that Rossi (and his bike) is simply always massively faster than everybody else, but it's just not true. Have a look at the 2005 season, Rossi didn't win many of the races he won by a margin of more than a couple of seconds, frequently it was a lot less, and I wouldn't be surprised if he'd led fewer laps than other riders in most of those races too.

MARSH2a

28th March 2006, 15:33

Most of my childhood was spent at the infield at Mid-Ohio road course, the "battery hump" of a back seat in an MGB during road rallies, and a small dark touring car clubhouse watching grand prix films. That is when I wasn't on the ice at the local rink playing hockey.

I've been to Indy, and I've tried to watch NASCAR. It is just to boring for me. I guess the sports car thing is in my blood. Many fond memories of all the old European sports cars (50's -70's).

Baseball... hhmm, on a good day I could score a "hat trick" in the time it takes to strike out or walk a batter. Way to slow... again boring for me.

But, I for one would not go to a baseball game and try to convert fans to hockey. Nor would I go to a NASCAR or Indy race and try to convince folks that sports car racing is more exciting.

Now that I've bored you... my point is this. Everyone has personal preferences and opinions, they don't necessarily reflect where you live or come from. This country isn't even the same now as it was 40 years ago, the demographics have changed so much.

Stereotype an American? LOL
Which ones?

duke_toaster

28th March 2006, 16:54

The problem with NASCAR is that they need reminding that the S stands for stock.

Let them have their small block V8's, but they should be stock (like they were in the 50's) and the only modifications allowed would be safey ones.

Also, NASCAR should end duplicate oval rounds and bring in Laguna Seca, Road America, Indy Road.

Before practice on ovals, a coin should be tossed. If heads, it should be raced anticlockwise, tails clockwise.:D

And cricket isn't boring.... unless the English national team are playing with a full squad cos England mow down everyone, no exeptions.

Eldanor

28th March 2006, 21:38

In moto gp it usually goes something like this - Rossi gets the lead, pulls away, and for the rest of the race he's out on his own with a 1 min lead with no chance of anyone catching him, unless his bike blows up or something.

I hope this year Dani puts some troubles to Rossi's races :) Great race at Jerez for a debutant!! :)

BTW, back on topic, the guy just opened the thread and never came back... seems like a troll to me, opening the thread just for a flame war :shrug:

der_jackal

28th March 2006, 22:16

Well he is a homeless drunk (or so his name implied) so it's possible the internet cafe kicked him out before he could post again.

/threadLockTolerance--;

Homeless_Drunk

29th March 2006, 01:41

I'm not a troll....I used to post on the rscnet forums quite often...I am sorry I didn't respond right away...This thread wasn't intended to be about nascar, its just thats what everyone seems to put down...and it seems like every post that has 1 comment about nascar is trailed by a bunch of bull about how americans are rednecks and how we suck...mrodgers is one of the few people who understands the reason of this thread....

jtr99

29th March 2006, 16:36

Apples for teh win, stoopid orange-loving idiots wouldn't know a good fruit if it bit them on the ass.

This made me laugh.

To the original poster: I agree with you that NASCAR gets a bad rap. I say this as someone who didn't watch any oval racing at all when growing up (hardly knew it existed). I discovered NASCAR largely through late night television and Papyrus games. I learned that simulated NASCAR races can be fantastic fun to drive, and that the real sport includes some very smart, determined and skilful drivers. On a trip to the US I went along to a small local circuit (Irwindale Speedway, CA) and had a great time.

But -- wouldn't you agree that the way the sport is currently run gives it some problems in being taken seriously by outsiders? What is it with that "boogity boogity boogity" guy? And crap like the "lucky dog rule"? And having to pretend that these cars bear any real relationship to on-road Chevy, Fords, Pontiacs, Dodges, etc?

(Clearly a sport run by stoopid orange-loving idiots, but maybe that can change.)

MARSH2a

29th March 2006, 16:57

What is it with that "boogity boogity boogity" guy?

The day NASCAR "jumped the shark". :razz:

MAGGOT

29th March 2006, 19:13

This made me laugh.

To the original poster: I agree with you that NASCAR gets a bad rap. I say this as someone who didn't watch any oval racing at all when growing up (hardly knew it existed). I discovered NASCAR largely through late night television and Papyrus games. I learned that simulated NASCAR races can be fantastic fun to drive, and that the real sport includes some very smart, determined and skilful drivers. On a trip to the US I went along to a small local circuit (Irwindale Speedway, CA) and had a great time.

But -- wouldn't you agree that the way the sport is currently run gives it some problems in being taken seriously by outsiders? What is it with that "boogity boogity boogity" guy? And crap like the "lucky dog rule"? And having to pretend that these cars bear any real relationship to on-road Chevy, Fords, Pontiacs, Dodges, etc?

(Clearly a sport run by stoopid orange-loving idiots, but maybe that can change.)

That is, essentially what I have said aswell. It's not the sport that is the problem - it's the series itself. Oval racing is fantastic, just not NASCAR's upper-tier oval racing. While talking about dumb rules, don't forget the "Chase for the Cup." Talk about a moronic rules addition...

MAGGOT

jtr99

29th March 2006, 20:34

While talking about dumb rules, don't forget the "Chase for the Cup."

Good point, I forgot possibly the dumbest one of all.

You could hardly call me an oval freak, but I do think that oval racing at its best does have a weirdly compelling beauty and zen-like simplicity to it. I find it interesting that fans of European-style road tracks often seem to hate ovals, but they also moan about modern changes to the road tracks they love: long, high-speed corners like Curva Grande at Monza being de-fanged by slow chicanes and first-gear hairpins. If you think that fast sweeping curves are the greatest spectacle in motor-racing, well, then, why not just join two of them together -- hey presto, an oval.

Homeless_Drunk

30th March 2006, 01:05

Yes, nascar has changed a lot over the years...I agree with jtr99 on many of his points....

If nascar was still 'stock cars' it would be boring as hell...who wants to watch a bunch of front wheel drive v6 monte carlo's, taurus and intrepids drive at their amazing top speed? I know I dont....of course the sport is going to change....things change....the point ladder can change the way the cup is won can change...but the racing will still be racing....the cars will still sound like mean v8's as they whip around the track...there are many things that wont....i disagree with many of the things that they are doing with the sport but that doesnt mean I am going to stop watching it....i love the sound, excitement (even though a lot of you dont get that part) and the fanbase...its amazing...

I find it interesting that fans of European-style road tracks often seem to hate ovals, but they also moan about modern changes to the road tracks they love: long, high-speed corners like Curva Grande at Monza being de-fanged by slow chicanes and first-gear hairpins.If you think that fast sweeping curves are the greatest spectacle in motor-racing, well, then, why not just join two of them together -- hey presto, an oval.

I dont think anyone could of said that better...

wheel4hummer

30th March 2006, 01:34

THANK YOU!!! That's exactly what i've been saying for years...Nascar is getting waaaaay too commericialized....which is the main reason i stopped watching it.

SCCA car's don't have any commercial slogans on them at all, right?
http://www.inr-scca.org/news/05-newmiata.jpg

Neither do F1 cars, right?
http://www.atspeedimages.com/pebble_2004/pebble_beach_concours/ferrari_formula_1_cars.jpg

:pillepall

MAGGOT

30th March 2006, 04:52

SCCA and F1 don't have their name on every type of merchandise there is.

Vain

30th March 2006, 09:12

I find it interesting that fans of European-style road tracks often seem to hate ovals, but they also moan about modern changes to the road tracks they love: long, high-speed corners like Curva Grande at Monza being de-fanged by slow chicanes and first-gear hairpins.If you think that fast sweeping curves are the greatest spectacle in motor-racing, well, then, why not just join two of them together -- hey presto, an oval.Who said that? I don't know anyone who would choose a fast sweeper over a tricky turn. Neither driver nor spectator. Except oval-fans of course. But I could perhaps imagin that some F1-fans could enjoy that. But who likes F1 anyway? :)
Fast turns are part of racing, but they are also quite boring in most cars. The most boring part of the Nordschleife is the Grand Prix part, if it is driven in the event (in most events it is, because of the pitlanes and because there is a lot of space for spectators, car lots, etc, though it's the most boring place to watch the race).

Vain

Hankstar

31st March 2006, 03:58

I think it's an inaccurate generlisation (even a stereotype) to say road-track fans just want big fast sweepers and loathe slow turns and hairpins. I think what we want is a variety of corners in any given track.
The main gripe with adding chicanes to old tracks to modernise them isn't just that they slow the cars down (thus giving sponsors more camera-time), it's that they often make tracks or sections of tracks very technical and slow without offering much chance to overtake, which leads to the "follow-the-leader" F1 phenomenon of recent years (although the crazy aero contributed to that, as did other tech stuff such as traction control). It sometimes seems (to some of us) that they're added just for the hell of it too, especially with classic venues like Silverstone, Le Mans, Monza..
Tight turns aren't a problem for us - think Monaco, the greatest street track of them all. We'd all love to give that place a thrashing (FYI they even threw in a new chicane after Tabac corner - but only because they had to divert the track around a swimming pool) Imagine a NASCAR trying to lug itself around there :D
While we're at it, imagine they decided to install a 2nd-gear chicane in the middle of the back straight (what's a "straightaway"? someone please tell me :tilt:) at Daytona ...

Sort of back on topic...it's a shame NASCAR fans get stereotyped the way they do, but I guess any large group of people that share something similar are going to cop it from various directions, especially if people don't understand that much about them. LFS fans get some unfair generalisations about being a pack of bitchy newb-hating drift/rice punks when most are serious race fans who have no time for cr4p that isn't race-related. Yes, LFS does attract drifters and ricers, but they are a minority. Don't know about GPL fans - maybe there aren't enough of us left for people to actually form an opinion :)

tinvek

31st March 2006, 09:23

The other American thing I hate is baseball, how you guys can sit there for 3 hours and watch this is beyond me.

Dan,

as opposed to cricket which is thrill a minute and only lasts anything between 1 day and 5 days :thumb:

ok now back to topic

i've always prefered road racing due to its variety of corners, gradients etc

BUT

you have to admit that some of the racing on ovals is fantastic wheel to wheel stuff, the last 20 laps of last weekends racing were fantastic.

L(Oo)ney

31st March 2006, 17:45

as opposed to cricket which is thrill a minute and only lasts anything between 1 day and 5 days :thumb:

While that may be boring, atleast we dont create a "world series" that only one country takes part in. :x

der_jackal

31st March 2006, 18:08

While that may be boring, atleast we dont create a "world series" that only one country takes part in. :x

Then how did a team from Toronto Canada win the title, twice?

< Can't stand baseball, just picking on ya.

L(Oo)ney

31st March 2006, 19:05

Then how did a team from Toronto Canada win the title, twice?

It was a fix. Thats what the americans keep telling me anyway. :tilt:

No seriously, i thought the world series only had american teams playing in it? Guess someone must've changed it without telling me.

Oh well, its a crap sport anyway, if it dont have an engine, im not interested. :D

v4forlife

31st March 2006, 19:41

i f'in love steriotypes. they are so much fun.

i know they are not true(mostly) but they are so funny, especially when you find some one that fits.

Blackout

31st March 2006, 21:12

I wanna hear stereotypes about finns! :D

zeugnimod

31st March 2006, 21:15

They always teach the bad words first (or only) if someone wants to learn finnish words of them! :D :p

(A Fin (^) said that to me, so it has to be true) ;)

jtr99

1st April 2006, 01:42

Who said that? I don't know anyone who would choose a fast sweeper over a tricky turn.

Vain and Hankstar, you make some good points, and I don't want to argue just for the sake of it. But I'm sure I didn't just imagine the response from motorsport fans to (for example) the changes to the Tamburello turn after Senna's death. Or Hank, you're Australian aren't you? What about the things people said about the new vs. the old Conrod Straight?

I agree that a fast sweeper can be boring if the car involved has so much mechanical grip or downforce that there is no serious issue of keeping it on the track. Don't mean to sound heretical, but think of some of the Kyoto Long corners in the FOX with high downforce, for example. The enormous downforce of modern F1 cars at speed certainly renders a lot of potentially terrifying corners much more tame (e.g., Eau Rouge). But look at the track layouts from formula one in the 50s and 60s, the kind of tracks featured in GPL (e.g., Monza, Silverstone, Spa in their old layouts). You can tell from one glance at the maps of those tracks that they featured extremely high speed corners, and history tells us that these corners were exciting for the spectators and challenging for the drivers.

Back to NASCAR, I agree that simply getting a car around one of the superspeedways like Daytona or Talladega is not too challenging (although presumably terrifying the first few hundred times). But on a more subtle track like Phoenix or Pocono or Darlington, the driver is necessarily close to losing control of the car in every corner. That for me has always been the definition of a good and exciting car & racetrack combination: corners that can be taken at high speeds but with the limits of grip being tested every time.

I know that the same skills are necessary for negotiating tight and twisty sections of track, but can you honestly tell me that something like the infield section of the Indianapolis GP track is dear to anyone's heart?

Anyway, thanks for listening. YMMV, of course.

tristancliffe

1st April 2006, 02:02

Slow and technical = good
Fast and easy = boring
Slow and easy = boring
Fast and technical = brilliant.

Personally I love T1 of Aston National/Historic/GP in most cars, because it's quick, demands an inch perfect entry, exact use of the inside kerbs, the right throttle application, and a bit of bravery to keep the throttle in right to the outside... Of course, it's very easy to put a rear wheel on the grass and have a big crash, especially with the right about of exit oversteer (just a few degrees), but that just adds to the challenge. Same with T4 at Westhill.

For slower corners, I really like the midfield section of SO Town - with the left, left, right section just before the fast/flat laft hander over the crest. Can make or lose a lot of time there, and passing is impossible (except for some people who think they can do what they want).

I'd go so far to say that there are very few boring corners in LFS - all of them have some quirk or characteristic that makes them a challenge in any car when on the limit. Eric really is a great track designer, and if Herman Tilke retires Eric should apply for the job. Tilke hasn't actually done a single track I know of with more than two good corners on it - he specialises in exceptionally dull tracks with one fabulous complex. I just hope the FIA/FOM/whoever is in control of F1 this week realises that before he kills F1...

Another F1 casualty should be James 'I know nothing' Allen. If you don't know who he is you are blessed. I think the vast majority of the people here could do a better job than he does. I long for a pairing like Murray and Hunt again, and Brundle is excellent when James lets him talk.

Is Murray doing the gridwalk on Sunday?

wheel4hummer

1st April 2006, 19:13

SCCA and F1 don't have their name on every type of merchandise there is.

REALLY?
http://www.grandprixproducts.com/erol.html
http://www.sccaclothing.com/Scripts/default.asp

DO SOME REASEARCH BEFORE POSTING SENSELESS POSTS! < Yes, that is all caps, and I am trying to sound like I am screaming!

Forbin

1st April 2006, 19:33

REALLY?
http://www.grandprixproducts.com/erol.html
http://www.sccaclothing.com/Scripts/default.asp

DO SOME REASEARCH BEFORE POSTING SENSELESS POSTS! < Yes, that is all caps, and I am trying to sound like I am screaming!
That's official merchandise, shirts, hats, mugs. That's to be expected. But I bet you don't see an F1 or SCCA logo slapped on the back of a bag of snack food (i.e. Combos) or on a Gatorade (or Powerade) bottle.